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	<title>Comments on: Already But Not Yet</title>
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	<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/05/22/already-but-not-yet/</link>
	<description>with Mart De Haan and Friends</description>
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		<title>By: sjd</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/05/22/already-but-not-yet/#comment-1138</link>
		<dc:creator>sjd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 03:31:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=167#comment-1138</guid>
		<description>It is difficult for me to somehow see something God has done be undone by man.  God has chosen us, predestined us, made us new creations, adopted us, redeemed us, sealed us with His Spirit, indwelt us, begun a good work in us and will finish it, made us living stones being built into His Temple, made alive from being dead, translated us into His Kingdom...  These certainly seem to be permanent facts for those who have repented(truly understood their depravity and turned from it), and placed their faith and trust in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and His finished work.  For those who daily are trusting in Him, seeking after Him I can give great assurance of their salvation even if sin is still presenting it&#039;s ugly head in their lives. 

 For those who are living in sin as noted in the verses above(Galatians 5:21 and I Corinthians 6:9-10)I can not reassure them as to their salvation and place in the Kingdom no matter what story they give me of walking an aisle, or praying a prayer, or raising a hand.  I John gives us ways of being reassured of our salvation(I John 5:13)throughout the book, including if we are not continuing in sin(I John 3:4-10).  Anyone living in sin as above needs to be treated as one that has not understood their sin and the holiness and grace of God.  We approach them with love and humility, but we must approach them. 

 I believe that for those who persevere (a fruitful life), there is evidence of their faith or new life (James &quot;faith without works is dead&quot;, Mark 4:20 the &quot;good soil&quot;), and as they are persevering/living is step with the Spirit, we can comfort/reassure them with Scripture.

I can not say for sure who is saved or not, but if I see someone who appears as if they are lost, I need to approach them.  Hopefully you do not bypass someone that appears lost in the desert, or at sea, or anywhere for that matter.  Jesus came to seek and save the lost.  We are now His body to let Him do the same through us.  Jesus is not willing that any should be lost, wanting all to enjoy His Kingdom now and future.
As we sin as believers we break the enjoyment of that Kingdom fellowship, but thanks be to God we can confess and return to that enjoyment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is difficult for me to somehow see something God has done be undone by man.  God has chosen us, predestined us, made us new creations, adopted us, redeemed us, sealed us with His Spirit, indwelt us, begun a good work in us and will finish it, made us living stones being built into His Temple, made alive from being dead, translated us into His Kingdom&#8230;  These certainly seem to be permanent facts for those who have repented(truly understood their depravity and turned from it), and placed their faith and trust in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and His finished work.  For those who daily are trusting in Him, seeking after Him I can give great assurance of their salvation even if sin is still presenting it&#8217;s ugly head in their lives. </p>
<p> For those who are living in sin as noted in the verses above(Galatians 5:21 and I Corinthians 6:9-10)I can not reassure them as to their salvation and place in the Kingdom no matter what story they give me of walking an aisle, or praying a prayer, or raising a hand.  I John gives us ways of being reassured of our salvation(I John 5:13)throughout the book, including if we are not continuing in sin(I John 3:4-10).  Anyone living in sin as above needs to be treated as one that has not understood their sin and the holiness and grace of God.  We approach them with love and humility, but we must approach them. </p>
<p> I believe that for those who persevere (a fruitful life), there is evidence of their faith or new life (James &#8220;faith without works is dead&#8221;, Mark 4:20 the &#8220;good soil&#8221;), and as they are persevering/living is step with the Spirit, we can comfort/reassure them with Scripture.</p>
<p>I can not say for sure who is saved or not, but if I see someone who appears as if they are lost, I need to approach them.  Hopefully you do not bypass someone that appears lost in the desert, or at sea, or anywhere for that matter.  Jesus came to seek and save the lost.  We are now His body to let Him do the same through us.  Jesus is not willing that any should be lost, wanting all to enjoy His Kingdom now and future.<br />
As we sin as believers we break the enjoyment of that Kingdom fellowship, but thanks be to God we can confess and return to that enjoyment.</p>
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		<title>By: savedbyGrace</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/05/22/already-but-not-yet/#comment-1125</link>
		<dc:creator>savedbyGrace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 02:35:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=167#comment-1125</guid>
		<description>I agree with what has been said here and the comments.

But I&#039;d also like to add that each time we sin and fall (especially the sexual sins, eg porn - you know how enticing and captivating it can be) - our hearts become hardened and we become less sensitive to God&#039;s voice.

If we allow ourselves to think that &quot;once saved, always saved&quot; - and that our ticket to heaven is secured regardless of number of times I sin ... there is a REAL danger that our hearts will become so hardened towards God  that one day, we may find ourselves rejecting God and embracing pleasures of the flesh ... and hence lose our salvation (not because God reject us, but we reject God and chose the flesh instead)

We must be on our guard and ask God to fill our hearts with holiness ... to hate sin as He does ... to see the ugliness and horror of sin so that we will recoil from it ... Flee from it!

Just my 2 cents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with what has been said here and the comments.</p>
<p>But I&#8217;d also like to add that each time we sin and fall (especially the sexual sins, eg porn &#8211; you know how enticing and captivating it can be) &#8211; our hearts become hardened and we become less sensitive to God&#8217;s voice.</p>
<p>If we allow ourselves to think that &#8220;once saved, always saved&#8221; &#8211; and that our ticket to heaven is secured regardless of number of times I sin &#8230; there is a REAL danger that our hearts will become so hardened towards God  that one day, we may find ourselves rejecting God and embracing pleasures of the flesh &#8230; and hence lose our salvation (not because God reject us, but we reject God and chose the flesh instead)</p>
<p>We must be on our guard and ask God to fill our hearts with holiness &#8230; to hate sin as He does &#8230; to see the ugliness and horror of sin so that we will recoil from it &#8230; Flee from it!</p>
<p>Just my 2 cents.</p>
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		<title>By: overcomer</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/05/22/already-but-not-yet/#comment-1124</link>
		<dc:creator>overcomer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 20:45:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=167#comment-1124</guid>
		<description>Just thinking on this some more and it seems to me that a lot of the confusion is engendered by preachers.  In order to maintain control and order in the church certain scriptures like this one are used to control behaviour.  The truth is seen to be too free and radical and there is always the danger of people abusing it.  Far better and safer to keep the congregation under the law.  I know that is a terrible thing to say but here in England I have seen it all my life. Believers who should be flying on eagles wings are still crawling amongst the shrubbery.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just thinking on this some more and it seems to me that a lot of the confusion is engendered by preachers.  In order to maintain control and order in the church certain scriptures like this one are used to control behaviour.  The truth is seen to be too free and radical and there is always the danger of people abusing it.  Far better and safer to keep the congregation under the law.  I know that is a terrible thing to say but here in England I have seen it all my life. Believers who should be flying on eagles wings are still crawling amongst the shrubbery.</p>
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		<title>By: overcomer</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/05/22/already-but-not-yet/#comment-1123</link>
		<dc:creator>overcomer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 20:23:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=167#comment-1123</guid>
		<description>I have been a believer for 35 years and I am just beginning to realise the enormity of our salvation – especially when it comes to never being able to lose it.  It blows my mind that I could actually live a totally sinful and selfish life and still be saved because I really do trust in the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ to save me.  But of course because I am saved when I do sin I feel really terrible.  I really enjoyed sex drugs and rock and roll before I was saved.  But on the occasions when I have slid back into sin it is like going back to my own vomit.  It looks really good from a distance but when I get up close and personal sin stinks.  Salvation means you can never really enjoy sin fully again.  There is always that sense of, “ I know this is worthless”.
My main sins now are more attitudes than &quot;doing sin&quot;.  Living my own selfish life is the biggest sin in my life.  The bottom line is &quot;Time&quot; and who we give it to.  Whether we spend it in sin or in serving God and worshipping Him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been a believer for 35 years and I am just beginning to realise the enormity of our salvation – especially when it comes to never being able to lose it.  It blows my mind that I could actually live a totally sinful and selfish life and still be saved because I really do trust in the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ to save me.  But of course because I am saved when I do sin I feel really terrible.  I really enjoyed sex drugs and rock and roll before I was saved.  But on the occasions when I have slid back into sin it is like going back to my own vomit.  It looks really good from a distance but when I get up close and personal sin stinks.  Salvation means you can never really enjoy sin fully again.  There is always that sense of, “ I know this is worthless”.<br />
My main sins now are more attitudes than &#8220;doing sin&#8221;.  Living my own selfish life is the biggest sin in my life.  The bottom line is &#8220;Time&#8221; and who we give it to.  Whether we spend it in sin or in serving God and worshipping Him.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/05/22/already-but-not-yet/#comment-1122</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 19:59:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=167#comment-1122</guid>
		<description>Realy.God forgives us even to the last breath,that reminds me of one of the criminals in Luke 23:42,43 he was saved and forgiven.But who knows if there will be another chance or not?
Let&#039;s ask the same question apostle Paul ask in Rom.6:1-2 &quot;...Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?Certainly not!...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Realy.God forgives us even to the last breath,that reminds me of one of the criminals in Luke 23:42,43 he was saved and forgiven.But who knows if there will be another chance or not?<br />
Let&#8217;s ask the same question apostle Paul ask in Rom.6:1-2 &#8220;&#8230;Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?Certainly not!&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: poohpity</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/05/22/already-but-not-yet/#comment-1120</link>
		<dc:creator>poohpity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 18:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=167#comment-1120</guid>
		<description>If we truly accept His forgiveness there are no ifs. He forgives us 70 times 7 for the same sin in the same day or hour. No ifs about it. If you accept what He did for you His love covers your and my sins and yes you do inherit the Kingdom of God. We have to remember His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts. IF you really  want to continue to sin then go for it but every time we do we hurt someone. We live under grace not the law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we truly accept His forgiveness there are no ifs. He forgives us 70 times 7 for the same sin in the same day or hour. No ifs about it. If you accept what He did for you His love covers your and my sins and yes you do inherit the Kingdom of God. We have to remember His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts. IF you really  want to continue to sin then go for it but every time we do we hurt someone. We live under grace not the law.</p>
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		<title>By: daisymarygoldr</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/05/22/already-but-not-yet/#comment-1119</link>
		<dc:creator>daisymarygoldr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 18:42:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=167#comment-1119</guid>
		<description>Thanks! This has certainly cleared all confusion and created additional thoughts as well…

In 1 Cor 6: 9-11, Paul is not only reminding the Corinthian saints (and Christians) of the grace of God that saved them from their sinful past (Eph 2:3) but is also exhorting them to avoid reverting back to that same vomit or mire. This also provides a ray of hope to an erring believer or children of believers to repent and turn back from their sins irrespective of their biological orientation of being ‘born this way’. The transforming power of the cross can change every drunkard(smoker), homosexual, adulterer and sinner from their sinful nature. By stating the sanctifying grace of Christ, Paul is emphatically ruling out every provision for the license to sin. 

However, as followers of Christ we cannot judge a backslidden fellow believer lest we’ll be judged by the same standard and we cannot be an accuser of the brethren either. Parents can only hope and wait in the Lord for the return of their prodigals. When it comes to our own individual selves we are assured of the ‘not so cool’ disciplining (Heb 12:3-11) of our heavenly father in order to make us yield peaceful fruits of righteousness which is the kingdom of God (Rom 14:17)!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks! This has certainly cleared all confusion and created additional thoughts as well…</p>
<p>In 1 Cor 6: 9-11, Paul is not only reminding the Corinthian saints (and Christians) of the grace of God that saved them from their sinful past (Eph 2:3) but is also exhorting them to avoid reverting back to that same vomit or mire. This also provides a ray of hope to an erring believer or children of believers to repent and turn back from their sins irrespective of their biological orientation of being ‘born this way’. The transforming power of the cross can change every drunkard(smoker), homosexual, adulterer and sinner from their sinful nature. By stating the sanctifying grace of Christ, Paul is emphatically ruling out every provision for the license to sin. </p>
<p>However, as followers of Christ we cannot judge a backslidden fellow believer lest we’ll be judged by the same standard and we cannot be an accuser of the brethren either. Parents can only hope and wait in the Lord for the return of their prodigals. When it comes to our own individual selves we are assured of the ‘not so cool’ disciplining (Heb 12:3-11) of our heavenly father in order to make us yield peaceful fruits of righteousness which is the kingdom of God (Rom 14:17)!</p>
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		<title>By: igetbored</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/05/22/already-but-not-yet/#comment-1117</link>
		<dc:creator>igetbored</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 17:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=167#comment-1117</guid>
		<description>This is all pretty good stuff everyones written here. The only thing I have is a question. How many times will God forgive us for commiting the same sin? What if we are truly sorry for our sins but we can&#039;t stop commiting them? Does this mean one can&#039;t inherit the kingdom of God?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is all pretty good stuff everyones written here. The only thing I have is a question. How many times will God forgive us for commiting the same sin? What if we are truly sorry for our sins but we can&#8217;t stop commiting them? Does this mean one can&#8217;t inherit the kingdom of God?</p>
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		<title>By: desert rose</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/05/22/already-but-not-yet/#comment-1113</link>
		<dc:creator>desert rose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 15:20:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=167#comment-1113</guid>
		<description>The unrighteous, would be those not made right with God. Your topic would take us to I John, Chapter 1.  If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.  I John was written to believers.  We are going to fall into sin and it is important for us to live close to God so we can identify the devil working to pull us down.

Being a believer is a continuous process of living &quot;in the Spirit&quot;, being &quot;led by the Spirit&quot; and only God knows the desires of the heart.  More importantly, it is imperative that we have the &#039;love of the Spirit.&#039;

A believer will not have the &quot;peace of God&quot; while living in the flesh.  However, I do know professing believers who have been living in sin, for a period of time and they have never repented.  

The devil cannot take a true believer to hell, but he certainly does work on us to discredit our faith and testimony.  Perhaps, we who are stronger in the faith should be more aware of helping those who are weak.  Building up the faith and having the gift of encouragment and love.

May God burden our hearts to pray fervently for each other and for the lost.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The unrighteous, would be those not made right with God. Your topic would take us to I John, Chapter 1.  If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.  I John was written to believers.  We are going to fall into sin and it is important for us to live close to God so we can identify the devil working to pull us down.</p>
<p>Being a believer is a continuous process of living &#8220;in the Spirit&#8221;, being &#8220;led by the Spirit&#8221; and only God knows the desires of the heart.  More importantly, it is imperative that we have the &#8216;love of the Spirit.&#8217;</p>
<p>A believer will not have the &#8220;peace of God&#8221; while living in the flesh.  However, I do know professing believers who have been living in sin, for a period of time and they have never repented.  </p>
<p>The devil cannot take a true believer to hell, but he certainly does work on us to discredit our faith and testimony.  Perhaps, we who are stronger in the faith should be more aware of helping those who are weak.  Building up the faith and having the gift of encouragment and love.</p>
<p>May God burden our hearts to pray fervently for each other and for the lost.</p>
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		<title>By: PWS</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/05/22/already-but-not-yet/#comment-1112</link>
		<dc:creator>PWS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 15:16:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=167#comment-1112</guid>
		<description>Mart, thank you for another thought provoking topic.


Hmmm...  

There are times that the plain sense of scripture seems to make no sense.  In those cases we must look to other scripture to help us understand the truth of what the author, by the Spirit, is telling us.  

In this case however, it does seem that Paul is stating that persons exibiting certain behaviors are not going to be part of the Kingdom.  This sends off red flags in our minds.  Why?  Because of people: People that we have known, perhaps even ourselves.  We think, &quot;But that person is a Christian.  And yet I&#039;ve seen them engage in these &quot;black list&quot; behaviors.  Therefore, the scriptures must mean something else.&quot;  I believe that if we look at salvation with our heart rather than our mind we may find an answer to this &quot;dilema&quot; that Paul raises.  

Salvation?  Saved from what?  The answer can&#039;t be shouted loud enough! SIN!!  We are sinners, slaves to sin.  The more that we understand the holiness of God, the more that we will fully appreciate what God has saved us from.  It is this very truth that Paul is writing about.  He is not giving a list of sins to avoid so that you will &quot;make it into the Kingdom&quot;.  Instead, he is merely reminding his readers of sins that their culture was full of and that some of them had just come out of.  Paul is not stating that believers will NEVER engage in these behaviors, but that they have been saved FROM sin and only saved people will be in the Kingdom.  John echoes this sentiment when he writes in I John that true believers will not habitually sin.  Christians still struggle with sin.  But it IS a struggle.  The key is that they will not HABITUALLY sin.  David, a man after God&#039;s own heart, struggled.  But when faced with his sin, what did he do?  He didn&#039;t shrug off his sin.  Instead he fell on his face and repented.  This is the heart response of one who understands sin and God&#039;s holiness.   

The good news through all of this is that we CAN BE SAVED from sin.  But remember that salvation from sin is progressive.  Over time, our fight with sin changes.

One who is saved:

1) Has been saved from the penalty of sin (PAST)
2) Is saved from the power of sin         (PRESENT)
3) Will be saved from the presence of sin (FUTURE)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mart, thank you for another thought provoking topic.</p>
<p>Hmmm&#8230;  </p>
<p>There are times that the plain sense of scripture seems to make no sense.  In those cases we must look to other scripture to help us understand the truth of what the author, by the Spirit, is telling us.  </p>
<p>In this case however, it does seem that Paul is stating that persons exibiting certain behaviors are not going to be part of the Kingdom.  This sends off red flags in our minds.  Why?  Because of people: People that we have known, perhaps even ourselves.  We think, &#8220;But that person is a Christian.  And yet I&#8217;ve seen them engage in these &#8220;black list&#8221; behaviors.  Therefore, the scriptures must mean something else.&#8221;  I believe that if we look at salvation with our heart rather than our mind we may find an answer to this &#8220;dilema&#8221; that Paul raises.  </p>
<p>Salvation?  Saved from what?  The answer can&#8217;t be shouted loud enough! SIN!!  We are sinners, slaves to sin.  The more that we understand the holiness of God, the more that we will fully appreciate what God has saved us from.  It is this very truth that Paul is writing about.  He is not giving a list of sins to avoid so that you will &#8220;make it into the Kingdom&#8221;.  Instead, he is merely reminding his readers of sins that their culture was full of and that some of them had just come out of.  Paul is not stating that believers will NEVER engage in these behaviors, but that they have been saved FROM sin and only saved people will be in the Kingdom.  John echoes this sentiment when he writes in I John that true believers will not habitually sin.  Christians still struggle with sin.  But it IS a struggle.  The key is that they will not HABITUALLY sin.  David, a man after God&#8217;s own heart, struggled.  But when faced with his sin, what did he do?  He didn&#8217;t shrug off his sin.  Instead he fell on his face and repented.  This is the heart response of one who understands sin and God&#8217;s holiness.   </p>
<p>The good news through all of this is that we CAN BE SAVED from sin.  But remember that salvation from sin is progressive.  Over time, our fight with sin changes.</p>
<p>One who is saved:</p>
<p>1) Has been saved from the penalty of sin (PAST)<br />
2) Is saved from the power of sin         (PRESENT)<br />
3) Will be saved from the presence of sin (FUTURE)</p>
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