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	<title>Comments on: Response to a Good Natured Challenge</title>
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	<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/06/28/response-to-a-good-natured-challenge/</link>
	<description>with Mart De Haan and Friends</description>
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		<title>By: Becky M</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/06/28/response-to-a-good-natured-challenge/#comment-1653</link>
		<dc:creator>Becky M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:48:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>No upset Mart, showing &quot;Carles&quot; comments does help us to see how impossible it would be to strictly obey them today.
The tearing of the temple curtain probably could be distinguished as God&#039;s tearing of His mantle showing death of the old Covenant. The awaited messiah had come and opened comunication with God to everyone so we didn&#039;t need to rely on animal sacrifices thru priests any longer. In so doing we did not need to hear the law on holy days any longer. God has written the law in our hearts. We learn directly from God, now that He has provided His sacrifice in His son the messiah.
I enjoyed everyone&#039;s comments on this thread.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No upset Mart, showing &#8220;Carles&#8221; comments does help us to see how impossible it would be to strictly obey them today.<br />
The tearing of the temple curtain probably could be distinguished as God&#8217;s tearing of His mantle showing death of the old Covenant. The awaited messiah had come and opened comunication with God to everyone so we didn&#8217;t need to rely on animal sacrifices thru priests any longer. In so doing we did not need to hear the law on holy days any longer. God has written the law in our hearts. We learn directly from God, now that He has provided His sacrifice in His son the messiah.<br />
I enjoyed everyone&#8217;s comments on this thread.</p>
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		<title>By: Mart De Haan</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/06/28/response-to-a-good-natured-challenge/#comment-1648</link>
		<dc:creator>Mart De Haan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 00:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=233#comment-1648</guid>
		<description>If anyone is going to be upset, be upset with me. I decided to use &quot;Charles&quot; comments as a post because it is so important for us to see that we are not under the rule and enforcement of the law in the way that Old Testament national Israel was.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If anyone is going to be upset, be upset with me. I decided to use &#8220;Charles&#8221; comments as a post because it is so important for us to see that we are not under the rule and enforcement of the law in the way that Old Testament national Israel was.</p>
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		<title>By: Elaa</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/06/28/response-to-a-good-natured-challenge/#comment-1647</link>
		<dc:creator>Elaa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=233#comment-1647</guid>
		<description>So Charles in a dilemma, I suppose I should be wondering if I should stop professing my faith and await eternity in hell fire seeing how I married a divorcee!

Asking Mart such tough/tricky questions will not help anyone, I don&#039;t think. Mart did not write the bible. If I were in Charles&#039; shoes, I would turn to the Holy Spirit for help, or better still, just take it up with God Himself.

Bull offering!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So Charles in a dilemma, I suppose I should be wondering if I should stop professing my faith and await eternity in hell fire seeing how I married a divorcee!</p>
<p>Asking Mart such tough/tricky questions will not help anyone, I don&#8217;t think. Mart did not write the bible. If I were in Charles&#8217; shoes, I would turn to the Holy Spirit for help, or better still, just take it up with God Himself.</p>
<p>Bull offering!</p>
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		<title>By: Ted M. Gossard</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/06/28/response-to-a-good-natured-challenge/#comment-1646</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted M. Gossard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:29:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=233#comment-1646</guid>
		<description>Yes, Mart. Good thoughts in working through it.

I look at it as a new covenant and a new nation bearing the fruit Jesus spoke of which God longed for from his people. This is not a parenthetical age but a fulfillment age in Jesus the Messiah in whom all Jews and Gentiles are called to put their faith and obey; we in Jesus are the people of God, the new Israel, I believe. And as Hebrews says, the old covenant is gone as the new in Jesus has replaced it.

Of course there is continuity between the old and the new covenants as Jesus fulfills the old in himself. But in that fulfillment we now by the Spirit fulfill the requirements of the old covenant, which at its heart is loving God and others as you noted. And that does involve us obeying commands as given to us in the New Testament/new covenant (commands everywhere, not only principles to follow, like in Ephesians, Colossians, Romans, etc).

Just my take, Mart, and doesn&#039;t directly address the issue as you so well do here. But I think it perhaps complements it, even though we are not in full agreement theologically, though probably closer than what some would think, practically speaking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Mart. Good thoughts in working through it.</p>
<p>I look at it as a new covenant and a new nation bearing the fruit Jesus spoke of which God longed for from his people. This is not a parenthetical age but a fulfillment age in Jesus the Messiah in whom all Jews and Gentiles are called to put their faith and obey; we in Jesus are the people of God, the new Israel, I believe. And as Hebrews says, the old covenant is gone as the new in Jesus has replaced it.</p>
<p>Of course there is continuity between the old and the new covenants as Jesus fulfills the old in himself. But in that fulfillment we now by the Spirit fulfill the requirements of the old covenant, which at its heart is loving God and others as you noted. And that does involve us obeying commands as given to us in the New Testament/new covenant (commands everywhere, not only principles to follow, like in Ephesians, Colossians, Romans, etc).</p>
<p>Just my take, Mart, and doesn&#8217;t directly address the issue as you so well do here. But I think it perhaps complements it, even though we are not in full agreement theologically, though probably closer than what some would think, practically speaking.</p>
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		<title>By: Gena</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/06/28/response-to-a-good-natured-challenge/#comment-1645</link>
		<dc:creator>Gena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 20:04:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=233#comment-1645</guid>
		<description>I think I am developing a headache reading all those OT laws. I thought it was understood that Jesus became the perfect sacrifice and that if we believeth in Him we shall have everlasting life.  He is the bridge between OT and NT is He not?  If He had not been born to Mary and died on the cross for our sins, then we would be observing all those OT laws. I certainly do not intend on being concerned about selling my daughter into slavery!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I am developing a headache reading all those OT laws. I thought it was understood that Jesus became the perfect sacrifice and that if we believeth in Him we shall have everlasting life.  He is the bridge between OT and NT is He not?  If He had not been born to Mary and died on the cross for our sins, then we would be observing all those OT laws. I certainly do not intend on being concerned about selling my daughter into slavery!</p>
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		<title>By: poohpity</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/06/28/response-to-a-good-natured-challenge/#comment-1644</link>
		<dc:creator>poohpity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 18:19:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=233#comment-1644</guid>
		<description>I also believe that the whole bible is a revelation of God and a revelation of who we are as human beings. The first five books go into details about how God wanted us to live Holy lives. He tried to get our focus, by everything He ordained, off of ourselves and on to Him but it did not work. Israel continues to follow the customs of the world around them, as we do. Through the rest of the OT He sent Judges, Kings, Prophets and natural consequences to try to get our focus back on Him. Did we do it, NO!!

He came down in human form to tell us again to trust and look to Him He will supply all our needs. Do we do it, NO, not in our own strength. We have a creator who only asks us to look to Him and only Him and glorify Him and only Him. We tend to look at scriptures in light of who we are and not who HE is. His wisdom is not ours and when we try we mess things up. We fight and argue over things written in the Bible because it takes many years of study and looking at it as a whole book with the discernment of the Holy Spirit to guide us into HIS truth. 

It is so easy to pick and choose scripture to fit whatever purpose WE have intended it to say. When there is strife over this wonderful revelation of God you can bet that it is not God&#039;s will. His will is that we know what He has so graciously revealed to us about HIM and how He wants us to treat others. If we are so busy arguing over the Bible then we obviously are not keeping busy serving HIM and maybe want to take a look at who we are really serving and where our heart is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also believe that the whole bible is a revelation of God and a revelation of who we are as human beings. The first five books go into details about how God wanted us to live Holy lives. He tried to get our focus, by everything He ordained, off of ourselves and on to Him but it did not work. Israel continues to follow the customs of the world around them, as we do. Through the rest of the OT He sent Judges, Kings, Prophets and natural consequences to try to get our focus back on Him. Did we do it, NO!!</p>
<p>He came down in human form to tell us again to trust and look to Him He will supply all our needs. Do we do it, NO, not in our own strength. We have a creator who only asks us to look to Him and only Him and glorify Him and only Him. We tend to look at scriptures in light of who we are and not who HE is. His wisdom is not ours and when we try we mess things up. We fight and argue over things written in the Bible because it takes many years of study and looking at it as a whole book with the discernment of the Holy Spirit to guide us into HIS truth. </p>
<p>It is so easy to pick and choose scripture to fit whatever purpose WE have intended it to say. When there is strife over this wonderful revelation of God you can bet that it is not God&#8217;s will. His will is that we know what He has so graciously revealed to us about HIM and how He wants us to treat others. If we are so busy arguing over the Bible then we obviously are not keeping busy serving HIM and maybe want to take a look at who we are really serving and where our heart is.</p>
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		<title>By: daisymarygoldr</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/06/28/response-to-a-good-natured-challenge/#comment-1642</link>
		<dc:creator>daisymarygoldr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:19:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=233#comment-1642</guid>
		<description>My respectful, good natured response to “A Good Natured Challenge”…sorry for its length, lack of grace and offensive content:

1) “I just don’t answer”- because I choose to love the pervert and hate the perfect. Homosexual lifestyle can be likened to a lock trying to fit with a lock or a key fitting with a key. God has created us emotionally, anatomically, biochemically and genetically distinct as males and females to complement and perfectly function as ‘a key fitting with a lock’ to unlock the mysteries of God!
2) “I have tried to burn ‘a’ bull”- I would have to burn ‘bulls’ every year of my life (Heb 10:4)
3) “Contact with most women”- If you mean sexual, its obvious the woman is not your wife because you don’t have to “ask” or “tell” your own body… If its mere social contact at the workplace or church then you must be still living in that bygone Levitical era when feminine hygiene products were not available and today the implication of that impurity is not about the physical but the spiritual cleanliness for Christians (both men and women).
4) “Slaves”- Christians consider themselves as being enslaved to God because Christ came to serve and not to be served. In our secular jobs we gladly serve our earthly masters in our service to God and lovingly lead as &#039;servant-leaders&#039; in humility towards our heavenly Master.
5) “What is a fair price for her?”- Will have to ask my Dad about how much he had to spend on my education…. it cannot be estimated.
6) “Shellfish”- and other crustaceans are the natural filters (of oceans, rivers and lakes) whose bodies are created to accumulate toxic levels of heavy metals and other harmful substances. The ones being eaten and served today are farm-raised…so go enjoy a big yummy lobster or crab for dinner!

I think I need to stop here and let Charles work out his dilemma by seeking the wisdom of God whose Law and commandments are rigid, eternal, and unchangeable. Therefore, God( the only one without sin or defect) in the person of Jesus had to fulfill (not do away with) the law so that we don’t have to do these things anymore.

Wondering if Charles also frowns and despises the traffic rules too…just got hit the other day by a reckless guy driving at 110 on a 75 mph zone. (Note aside: Sometimes, I secretly wish for lightening to strike people when they break the road rules and hurt the innocent law abiding ones…however, I soon ask God to forgive my unloving “attitude”)

The Law was given to show mankind the standard of God’s Holiness vs. the unclean nature of mankind’s sin. It was given not to condemn but to preserve Life. In choosing to abide by it Christians are not being legalistic but living a discipled life of Christ. By meticulously pointing out the impossibility of keeping the “Law”, the writer must have gotten a sense of the ‘immeasurable love’ that led Jesus to bear the untold pain and suffering of the cross on our behalf. 

How then can a Christian not believe in Jesus and the liberty He offers with love? How big must that mountain of unbelief be that prevents us to acknowledge our sins and accept the saving grace of Jesus Christ?! Praying for Charles and others like him…</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My respectful, good natured response to “A Good Natured Challenge”…sorry for its length, lack of grace and offensive content:</p>
<p>1) “I just don’t answer”- because I choose to love the pervert and hate the perfect. Homosexual lifestyle can be likened to a lock trying to fit with a lock or a key fitting with a key. God has created us emotionally, anatomically, biochemically and genetically distinct as males and females to complement and perfectly function as ‘a key fitting with a lock’ to unlock the mysteries of God!<br />
2) “I have tried to burn ‘a’ bull”- I would have to burn ‘bulls’ every year of my life (Heb 10:4)<br />
3) “Contact with most women”- If you mean sexual, its obvious the woman is not your wife because you don’t have to “ask” or “tell” your own body… If its mere social contact at the workplace or church then you must be still living in that bygone Levitical era when feminine hygiene products were not available and today the implication of that impurity is not about the physical but the spiritual cleanliness for Christians (both men and women).<br />
4) “Slaves”- Christians consider themselves as being enslaved to God because Christ came to serve and not to be served. In our secular jobs we gladly serve our earthly masters in our service to God and lovingly lead as &#8217;servant-leaders&#8217; in humility towards our heavenly Master.<br />
5) “What is a fair price for her?”- Will have to ask my Dad about how much he had to spend on my education…. it cannot be estimated.<br />
6) “Shellfish”- and other crustaceans are the natural filters (of oceans, rivers and lakes) whose bodies are created to accumulate toxic levels of heavy metals and other harmful substances. The ones being eaten and served today are farm-raised…so go enjoy a big yummy lobster or crab for dinner!</p>
<p>I think I need to stop here and let Charles work out his dilemma by seeking the wisdom of God whose Law and commandments are rigid, eternal, and unchangeable. Therefore, God( the only one without sin or defect) in the person of Jesus had to fulfill (not do away with) the law so that we don’t have to do these things anymore.</p>
<p>Wondering if Charles also frowns and despises the traffic rules too…just got hit the other day by a reckless guy driving at 110 on a 75 mph zone. (Note aside: Sometimes, I secretly wish for lightening to strike people when they break the road rules and hurt the innocent law abiding ones…however, I soon ask God to forgive my unloving “attitude”)</p>
<p>The Law was given to show mankind the standard of God’s Holiness vs. the unclean nature of mankind’s sin. It was given not to condemn but to preserve Life. In choosing to abide by it Christians are not being legalistic but living a discipled life of Christ. By meticulously pointing out the impossibility of keeping the “Law”, the writer must have gotten a sense of the ‘immeasurable love’ that led Jesus to bear the untold pain and suffering of the cross on our behalf. </p>
<p>How then can a Christian not believe in Jesus and the liberty He offers with love? How big must that mountain of unbelief be that prevents us to acknowledge our sins and accept the saving grace of Jesus Christ?! Praying for Charles and others like him…</p>
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		<title>By: LisaG</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/06/28/response-to-a-good-natured-challenge/#comment-1641</link>
		<dc:creator>LisaG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:15:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hello again,

I agree in your response...yet if we approach God in this age of grace with the works of the law...just as they failed in times past, we shall fail as well.  The law pointed to the need of a savior which we have now through faith in the cross and Christ crusified. Cleaning the outside of the cup never works. God is concerned with our hearts.  There are many religious folks out there still living a very frustrating life trying to earn right standing with God.  Doing the right thing is always the right thing to do...but to place your faith in it is a recipe for disappointment.

Love, Agape Style
LisaG</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello again,</p>
<p>I agree in your response&#8230;yet if we approach God in this age of grace with the works of the law&#8230;just as they failed in times past, we shall fail as well.  The law pointed to the need of a savior which we have now through faith in the cross and Christ crusified. Cleaning the outside of the cup never works. God is concerned with our hearts.  There are many religious folks out there still living a very frustrating life trying to earn right standing with God.  Doing the right thing is always the right thing to do&#8230;but to place your faith in it is a recipe for disappointment.</p>
<p>Love, Agape Style<br />
LisaG</p>
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		<title>By: Mart De Haan</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/06/28/response-to-a-good-natured-challenge/#comment-1640</link>
		<dc:creator>Mart De Haan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:05:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=233#comment-1640</guid>
		<description>desert rose, my heart goes out to you and your daughter. When I used &quot;good natured&quot; I didn&#039;t mean to imply that the issues are not serious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>desert rose, my heart goes out to you and your daughter. When I used &#8220;good natured&#8221; I didn&#8217;t mean to imply that the issues are not serious.</p>
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		<title>By: Mart De Haan</title>
		<link>http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/06/28/response-to-a-good-natured-challenge/#comment-1639</link>
		<dc:creator>Mart De Haan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:02:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=233#comment-1639</guid>
		<description>Because Jesus and the NT affirm the authority of Moses and the prophets, I&#039;m convinced we have reason to believe that all of it is a revelation of God (Matt 5:17-18; 2Tim 3:16; 2Peter 1:20,21). The NT helps us find the timeless principles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because Jesus and the NT affirm the authority of Moses and the prophets, I&#8217;m convinced we have reason to believe that all of it is a revelation of God (Matt 5:17-18; 2Tim 3:16; 2Peter 1:20,21). The NT helps us find the timeless principles.</p>
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