I know we both agree with 2Tim 3:16-17 which explains why all of Scripture is important when it says, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

But when you reason that our sins are not forgiven until we are baptized, or until we keep all of the commands of Christ, I believe you are unintentionally denying the grace of Christ, his death for our sins, and right motives for wanting to live by his Word.

Because you have asked– what then about Mark 16:16? I’ll copy here, in conclusion, an explanation from The Bible Knowledge Commentary,

“Though the New Testament writers generally assume that under normal circumstances each believer will be baptized, 16:16 does not mean that baptism is a necessary requirement for personal salvation. The second half of the verse indicates by contrast that one who does not believe the gospel will be condemned by God (implied) in the day of final judgment (cf. 9:43-48). The basis for condemnation is unbelief, not the lack of any ritual observance.

Baptism is not mentioned because unbelief precludes one’s giving a confession of faith while being baptized by water. Thus the only requirement for personally appropriating God’s salvation is faith in Him (cf. Rom. 3:21-28; Eph. 2:8-10).”

Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-c1985). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (2:195). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

freedom to chose= free will to choose or deny God even though you were chosen by God to be here on this earth does not mean that YOU or I are guaranteed choose to accept the Son to be with him on the new earth that will be created after his 1000 year reign on this earth.

this is where the lies of satan come in. the master of confusion and false doctrine. if we are free to choose and satan is attacking us with false doctrine,lies,religion(not relationship) and even a question within the word of God. just a little confusion in one matter of scripture is enough to turn people away from god forever. again a choice made by us to deny him because a possible misinterpretation or misunderstanding of an interpretation.

i believe both are correct. we were chosen and have freedom to choose.

both have happened to me. he chose me to be born from my moms. i chose Jesus after I met him and found out for “myself” who he Is.

lord i pray for those who are struggling with this matter that you give clarity and understanding. may your will be done above all!

Our human tendency, however, is to try and resolve the tension at the expense of one side of the issue or the other (i.e by emphasizing free will, or Divine Sovereignty at the expense of what the Bible says about the other).

The first premise is that no one at all may come to God unless He first draws them (Jn 6:44). Man doesn’t have the capacity to find God – As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” Salvation cannot be discovered aside from God’s initiative. God would not make a call that He knew was inadequate or insincere for the welfare of any soul. This is supported, for example, by 1 Tim 2:4. However, if salvation has not and does not affect salvation for all, then it must be because of some condition that prevents its efficacious working, eg. pride, resistance, rebellion, disinterest, ignorance, no messenger. The accusation of failure to affect salvation cannot rest upon God who says He “so loved the world that he gave…”.

So election first starts with the precept that none can come to God unless He first initiates the call; however, I do not subscribe to irresistible grace – that those God calls are unable to resist salvation.

Why?

Salvation, which God provides and initiates, is dependant upon our responding to the revelation of the need and means of salvation. Now it is agreed that God does provide a convincing reason to believe. Even so, salvation is effective only to all those who respond (Jn 1:12). Does this mean that we have a part in our salvation? No, there is no ‘work’ or part we have in this process. One, we cannot choose God unless He first initiates revelation of the truth of Christ, sin, and judgment; so man cannot have a part by saying I found God. Two, when we respond to the revelation and salvation, with all the attending blessings, solely upon the finished work of Christ, we cannot even brag (Eph 2:9; 2 Cor 10:16-18).

God has set in motion to call out of darkness all those who have been prayed for or witnessed to by His surrendered saints (foreknowledge in preparing those hearts to hear). Many are thus called, but few are chosen because many will not surrender to the revelation from God through the Body – that is why “go ..preach the gospel.” Salvation begins with God and ends with Him, and man has no part in it by works but only by responding to the light passed on by God through Body of Christ via testimony, witness, the sharing of the Word, and intercession prayer. We are not special by being saved; we are privileged to be saved.

All of us who are children of God through Christ are involved in the plan of God! The ones whom God calls as a result of the Body’s intercession, witnessing, providing the Word, and He calls sincerely! But those who are called need to respond – free will. Tomk

chaplain TomK

I think of the cross of Christ having words written on the front and back, and as I approach from the front, I as a sinner lost and undone read “Come unto me all ye…” and He accepts me by His grace. Then as I pass by the cross and look back, I read “Elect from the foundation of the world”. The Bible declares the truth of both statements.

To me an interesting side on this is the wonderful hymn written by Charles Wesley ( a free “willer” )

1. And can it be that I should gain
an interest in the Savior’s blood!
Died he for me? who caused his pain!
For me? who him to death pursued?
Amazing love! How can it be
that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
Amazing love! How can it be
that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?

2. ‘Tis mystery all: th’ Immortal dies!
Who can explore his strange design?
In vain the firstborn seraph tries
to sound the depths of love divine.
‘Tis mercy all! Let earth adore;
let angel minds inquire no more.
‘Tis mercy all! Let earth adore;
let angel minds inquire no more.

3. He left his Father’s throne above
(so free, so infinite his grace!),
emptied himself of all but love,
and bled for Adam’s helpless race.
‘Tis mercy all, immense and free,
for O my God, it found out me!
‘Tis mercy all, immense and free,
for O my God, it found out me!

4. Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
thine eye diffused a quickening ray;
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
my chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed thee.

5. No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in him, is mine;
alive in him, my living Head,
and clothed in righteousness divine,
bold I approach th’ eternal throne,
and claim the crown, through Christ my own.
Bold I approach th’ eternal throne,
and claim the crown, through Christ my own.

Brother Charles had it right! I love this Hymn, and I love the Lord Jesus who gave Wesley these words.

I thought I would let “thankful” know that this is the NIV version. The version shown below is the New living translation.

16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.

I am really confused as to what version was quoted by “thankful” above because I do not see that much difference in the language.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he had not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” KJV 1866

Here’s The New International Version of John 3:16

“For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life.”

There seems to be a big difference in the language, doesn’t there?