Comments on: Who’s in Charge? Or, Who Cares? http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/09/04/whos-in-charge-or-who-cares/ with Mart De Haan and Friends Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:07:52 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Cafemano http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/09/04/whos-in-charge-or-who-cares/#comment-2694 Cafemano Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:08:10 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=456#comment-2694 Hey there Mart. I am not sure where I fit here but in reading these posts I so have admiration, empathy and compassion for these situations. I am in my 4th marriage and my experiances were similar... but on the other side as the husband. I grew up in a home with an emotionaly abusive father and its impact has affected my choices in life although I dont put the blame on my dad. At 19 my life was forever changed when I met Jesus and learned that He required me to forgive my earthly father. Somewhere along the way we ultimately must face and take responsibility for the decisions we make... good and poor alike. Along lifes journey at 20 years old, I married and made decisions based at the time where I believed God was leading me. Everything was so new and exciting and so hopefull. I have never been physicaly or emotionally abusive during my marriages rather it seems I chose dominating and controling realtionships. My first marriage fell apart at a time (late 70's)and ended in 1982 when little was understood in the church about those who teeter tottered on the line of Manic Depression and Schizophrenia or struggled with Bi-Polar symptoms such as my wife did back then. It was put off as just an unwillingness to submit on her behalf. I thought I was going crazy and we only recieved pastorial/biblical council that basicly seemed to exasorbate the problems. My wife then believed that people were trying to make her think she was just being passive-agressive and rebellious or that she was not submiting in the way the bible required. We got into biblical thumping contests over time that just eroded away the little left relationship we had. Retrospectivly looking back I can see that she really needed professional help. She would seldom come out from the bedroom after our second daughter was born and when she did it was filled with argumentitive discussions and she would then retreat into the bedroom with curtains drawn like a darkened dungeon. By the time I had my third daughter I became more focused out of fear of what would become of the situation... not knowing what to do and rushing home to this depressing situation. Through it all I have to say that today I have three beautiful daughters who love the Lord deeply and I have to say that it is to God I give the glory. There is no other explanation to speak of it and I know the redeeming power of forgiveness and healing and mercy that only God could have brought through it all. I spoke earlier that there were decisions I had made in my past about marrage that had unseen consequences. I just never would consent to my divorces nor stand idly by while my world crumbled. We each must make a stand and also submit to the direction on the road that God leads us even when nothing makes sense. The most difficult thing to do is to get back up and put one foot in front of the other. I have made a few poor decisions along the way and shed many a tear as I deeply searched my heart before God about so many things. I am 54 years old and still can say that through it all I am still learning to trust in Jesus and not my own understanding so much. We all are vessels that contain the light of truith and hope wherever we are in this life. Our struggles and ability to overcome such obsticles are the very essences of which blaze the path for others to follow that we cannot begin to know. Job is a man of the bible that I am so very glad God made sure was in my path of life. Through it all Job blazed a trail that I could follow when all seemed lost. God tells me through Jobs life that He believes in me and that He will be there when the trials of this life are over for me. God has made a commitment to me and proved it with the covenent blood through Jesus my Christ. I long for that day when I will stand before Him and have the privelege of casting my crown at His feet. It really does come down to comitment and faith, but centered in a relationship with Jesus. There are really no easy answers to our lifes delemas. We can only learn to trust and obey the leadings of the Holy Spirit. Hey there Mart. I am not sure where I fit here but in reading these posts I so have admiration, empathy and compassion for these situations. I am in my 4th marriage and my experiances were similar… but on the other side as the husband. I grew up in a home with an emotionaly abusive father and its impact has affected my choices in life although I dont put the blame on my dad. At 19 my life was forever changed when I met Jesus and learned that He required me to forgive my earthly father. Somewhere along the way we ultimately must face and take responsibility for the decisions we make… good and poor alike. Along lifes journey at 20 years old, I married and made decisions based at the time where I believed God was leading me. Everything was so new and exciting and so hopefull. I have never been physicaly or emotionally abusive during my marriages rather it seems I chose dominating and controling realtionships. My first marriage fell apart at a time (late 70’s)and ended in 1982 when little was understood in the church about those who teeter tottered on the line of Manic Depression and Schizophrenia or struggled with Bi-Polar symptoms such as my wife did back then. It was put off as just an unwillingness to submit on her behalf. I thought I was going crazy and we only recieved pastorial/biblical council that basicly seemed to exasorbate the problems. My wife then believed that people were trying to make her think she was just being passive-agressive and rebellious or that she was not submiting in the way the bible required. We got into biblical thumping contests over time that just eroded away the little left relationship we had. Retrospectivly looking back I can see that she really needed professional help. She would seldom come out from the bedroom after our second daughter was born and when she did it was filled with argumentitive discussions and she would then retreat into the bedroom with curtains drawn like a darkened dungeon. By the time I had my third daughter I became more focused out of fear of what would become of the situation… not knowing what to do and rushing home to this depressing situation. Through it all I have to say that today I have three beautiful daughters who love the Lord deeply and I have to say that it is to God I give the glory. There is no other explanation to speak of it and I know the redeeming power of forgiveness and healing and mercy that only God could have brought through it all. I spoke earlier that there were decisions I had made in my past about marrage that had unseen consequences. I just never would consent to my divorces nor stand idly by while my world crumbled. We each must make a stand and also submit to the direction on the road that God leads us even when nothing makes sense. The most difficult thing to do is to get back up and put one foot in front of the other. I have made a few poor decisions along the way and shed many a tear as I deeply searched my heart before God about so many things. I am 54 years old and still can say that through it all I am still learning to trust in Jesus and not my own understanding so much. We all are vessels that contain the light of truith and hope wherever we are in this life. Our struggles and ability to overcome such obsticles are the very essences of which blaze the path for others to follow that we cannot begin to know. Job is a man of the bible that I am so very glad God made sure was in my path of life. Through it all Job blazed a trail that I could follow when all seemed lost. God tells me through Jobs life that He believes in me and that He will be there when the trials of this life are over for me. God has made a commitment to me and proved it with the covenent blood through Jesus my Christ. I long for that day when I will stand before Him and have the privelege of casting my crown at His feet. It really does come down to comitment and faith, but centered in a relationship with Jesus. There are really no easy answers to our lifes delemas. We can only learn to trust and obey the leadings of the Holy Spirit.

]]> By: Abigail2 http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/09/04/whos-in-charge-or-who-cares/#comment-2504 Abigail2 Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:28:36 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=456#comment-2504 Thank you Dennis:) Thank you Dennis:)

]]> By: dennisva http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/09/04/whos-in-charge-or-who-cares/#comment-2498 dennisva Thu, 11 Sep 2008 03:37:51 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=456#comment-2498 I still admire you Abigail2. :) I'll continue to pray for you and for women like you. God bless sis! I still admire you Abigail2. :) I’ll continue to pray for you and for women like you. God bless sis!

]]> By: Abigail2 http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/09/04/whos-in-charge-or-who-cares/#comment-2497 Abigail2 Thu, 11 Sep 2008 00:48:55 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=456#comment-2497 Dennis, I may not have made myself clear. I didn't leave but live separately in our home from him. I felt as though I would lose my mind eventually if I didn't. I do appreciate what you have said though. I am so glad your wife has a husband who stands up for abused women whether verbally or any other kind of abuse. I heard Tony Evans on the radio one day a long time ago, that if the husband is not under the headship of Christ he has lost the privilege of being head over his wife. I don't think he was referring to unsaved men. And I hope I haven't misquoted him. But that is the jist of what I got out of it. I was in my car driving and cried, because hearing a man defend a woman, for me has been rare,not from my Father, brother, or my husband. God wants my obedience to Him but doesn't force it on me and is not a tyrant. It took me years as a Christian to get that from my head to my heart. God loves me into submission, even in discipline. Dennis, I may not have made myself clear.
I didn’t leave but live separately in our home from him.
I felt as though I would lose my mind eventually if I didn’t.
I do appreciate what you have said though.
I am so glad your wife has a husband who stands up for abused women whether verbally or any other kind of abuse.

I heard Tony Evans on the radio one day a long time ago, that if the husband is not under the headship of Christ he has lost the privilege of being head over his wife. I don’t think he was referring to unsaved men.
And I hope I haven’t misquoted him. But that is the jist of what I got out of it. I was in my car driving and cried, because hearing a man defend a woman, for me has been rare,not from my Father, brother, or my husband.

God wants my obedience to Him but doesn’t force it on me and is not a tyrant. It took me years as a Christian to get that from my head to my heart.
God loves me into submission, even in discipline.

]]> By: Wordgazer http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/09/04/whos-in-charge-or-who-cares/#comment-2493 Wordgazer Wed, 10 Sep 2008 20:44:45 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=456#comment-2493 What does the Bible actually mean by "the husband is head of the wife"? Are we reading "headship" where it says only "head"? What about the fact that in the culture in which Paul wrote, understanding of the roles of brain and heart were reversed? The brain (head) was thought to be the part of the body that gave life to the rest; the heart (chest) was seen as the seat of the mind and will. In short, the implication that "head" means "the one who makes the decisions" comes from our modern ideas, not from the Scripture. The "head" in that culture meant the source of life, also (due to its physical position) the pre-eminent part, the part on top, as it were. But those on top are constantly told in Christianity to take the lowest place. Is the husband told to "be the head" as in "take the lead?" No, the passage says the husband "is" the head, as the wife "is" the body. The passage is about the unity of head and body as one flesh, not about roles or actions within roles. There are other passages in Scripture that refer to Christ's authority over the church. This does not happen to be one of them-- this passage refers to the provision and nuture He gives the church. The husband is, by Christ's example, to do the same for the wife. Yes, the wife is to submit, as all members of the body are to submit to one another. Eph. 5:21. But she is submitting to her husband, not her leader. What does the Bible actually mean by “the husband is head of the wife”? Are we reading “headship” where it says only “head”?

What about the fact that in the culture in which Paul wrote, understanding of the roles of brain and heart were reversed? The brain (head) was thought to be the part of the body that gave life to the rest; the heart (chest) was seen as the seat of the mind and will. In short, the implication that “head” means “the one who makes the decisions” comes from our modern ideas, not from the Scripture.

The “head” in that culture meant the source of life, also (due to its physical position) the pre-eminent part, the part on top, as it were. But those on top are constantly told in Christianity to take the lowest place.

Is the husband told to “be the head” as in “take the lead?” No, the passage says the husband “is” the head, as the wife “is” the body. The passage is about the unity of head and body as one flesh, not about roles or actions within roles.

There are other passages in Scripture that refer to Christ’s authority over the church. This does not happen to be one of them– this passage refers to the provision and nuture He gives the church. The husband is, by Christ’s example, to do the same for the wife.

Yes, the wife is to submit, as all members of the body are to submit to one another. Eph. 5:21. But she is submitting to her husband, not her leader.

]]> By: dennisva http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/09/04/whos-in-charge-or-who-cares/#comment-2462 dennisva Tue, 09 Sep 2008 10:09:42 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=456#comment-2462 Hi Abigail2, I admire your patience and determination in strictly following God's word. I might not be the best adviser and others might disagree with me on this situation but I think what you did is right in leaving him. I personnally would even advise a wife to leave a physically abusive husband at least for her own safety. And I believe the husband might eventually start thinking why would a loving wife finally would want to leave him. It's men like these that makes submitting hard for women. I agree with DaisyMary, he will be accountable to the Lord for his actions. I'm speaking as a husband as well, and I just can't imagine myself lifting my hands on my wife. I've seen husbands who are verbally abusive to their wife right infront of us and I really can't stand it and I need to speak up. I also have a sister and praise God her husband is very loving, although he hasn't accepted Christ yet but he loves my sister very much. But I tell you, if ever he begins to become abusive to her, he will not only have problems with me, he will have problems with the whole family as well. :) Hi Abigail2, I admire your patience and determination in strictly following God’s word. I might not be the best adviser and others might disagree with me on this situation but I think what you did is right in leaving him. I personnally would even advise a wife to leave a physically abusive husband at least for her own safety. And I believe the husband might eventually start thinking why would a loving wife finally would want to leave him. It’s men like these that makes submitting hard for women. I agree with DaisyMary, he will be accountable to the Lord for his actions. I’m speaking as a husband as well, and I just can’t imagine myself lifting my hands on my wife. I’ve seen husbands who are verbally abusive to their wife right infront of us and I really can’t stand it and I need to speak up. I also have a sister and praise God her husband is very loving, although he hasn’t accepted Christ yet but he loves my sister very much. But I tell you, if ever he begins to become abusive to her, he will not only have problems with me, he will have problems with the whole family as well. :)

]]> By: Abigail2 http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/09/04/whos-in-charge-or-who-cares/#comment-2449 Abigail2 Mon, 08 Sep 2008 14:17:27 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=456#comment-2449 DaisyMary, Thank you so much for your encouragement. God Bless you for your kind and encouraging words. I will hang onto them and cling to my God. DaisyMary,
Thank you so much for your encouragement.
God Bless you for your kind and encouraging words.
I will hang onto them and cling to my God.

]]> By: daisymarygoldr http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/09/04/whos-in-charge-or-who-cares/#comment-2446 daisymarygoldr Mon, 08 Sep 2008 05:45:51 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=456#comment-2446 Abigail2, My heart goes out to you and I pray and hope everything will work out for the ultimate good in the end. Please, do not regret the tough decision you made to stick it out “for better or for worse”…look at you- 6 children, 13 grandchildren and 2 great grandchildren…I would give anything to be blessed like you! You are one strong God-fearing woman (other than my grandmother and aunt) who has greatly inspired me today. Of course, divorce is the broad and easy way that everyone likes to take…it only takes a strong and faithful few to tread the strait and narrow way. The Lord will surely reward you for your faithfulness and your husband will be accountable for his actions. So continue to stay strong and count the many blessings that God will keep pouring into and through your life to others! Abigail2,
My heart goes out to you and I pray and hope everything will work out for the ultimate good in the end. Please, do not regret the tough decision you made to stick it out “for better or for worse”…look at you- 6 children, 13 grandchildren and 2 great grandchildren…I would give anything to be blessed like you! You are one strong God-fearing woman (other than my grandmother and aunt) who has greatly inspired me today. Of course, divorce is the broad and easy way that everyone likes to take…it only takes a strong and faithful few to tread the strait and narrow way. The Lord will surely reward you for your faithfulness and your husband will be accountable for his actions. So continue to stay strong and count the many blessings that God will keep pouring into and through your life to others!

]]> By: Abigail2 http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/09/04/whos-in-charge-or-who-cares/#comment-2444 Abigail2 Sun, 07 Sep 2008 22:42:41 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=456#comment-2444 I wanted to add, I came from a family who thought divorce was the answer to every little problem. Sisters, brothers Mom. Also I was a stay at home Mom and tried my very best to be the best Mom and wife that I could with what little I had. I got saved at age 29. Was married at age 19. I wanted to add, I came from a family who thought divorce was the answer to every little problem. Sisters, brothers Mom. Also I was a stay at home Mom and tried my very best to be the best Mom and wife that I could with what little I had. I got saved at age 29. Was married at age 19.

]]> By: Abigail2 http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/09/04/whos-in-charge-or-who-cares/#comment-2443 Abigail2 Sun, 07 Sep 2008 22:40:12 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=456#comment-2443 For many years after becoming a Christian so many sermons and books published and some Bible studies were on 'Being Submissive' I worked hard to do that hoping to win my husband to Christ by living the Christian life the way I thought God intended me to live it.My husband was and still can be very emotionally and mentally abusive(married 47 years) up until a few years ago was physically abusive and told me the way for a man to show a woman who is boss is to keep her afraid. I actually believed for a long time that God was on the side of men no matter what they did. We now live separate in our home,(for the last 3 years) there is no marriage as the way God describes it in his Word. Please don't judge me as to why I stayed with this man.I grieve over that myself enough. I am 66 now and we have 6 children, 13 grandchildren and 2 great grandchildren. I now have gotten lashback from some of my children for staying and they tell me it is my fault there is trouble in the family because I didn't leave him years ago. So on this topic, I cannot submit to a man who is so condescending and contemptuous.He is also addicted to pornography. For many years after becoming a Christian so many sermons and books published and some Bible studies were on ‘Being Submissive’ I worked hard to do that hoping to win my husband to Christ by living the Christian life the way I thought God intended me to live it.My husband was and still can be very emotionally and mentally abusive(married 47 years) up until a few years ago was physically abusive and told me the way for a man to show a woman who is boss is to keep her afraid.

I actually believed for a long time that God was on the side of men no matter what they did.

We now live separate in our home,(for the last 3 years) there is no marriage as the way God describes it in his Word.
Please don’t judge me as to why I stayed with this man.I grieve over that myself enough.
I am 66 now and we have 6 children, 13 grandchildren and 2 great grandchildren. I now have gotten lashback from some of my children for staying and they tell me it is my fault there is trouble in the family because I didn’t leave him years ago.

So on this topic, I cannot submit to a man who is so condescending and contemptuous.He is also addicted to pornography.

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