“If we can agree that such principles don’t make a church– can we also agree that if our church experience lacks appropriate Christ-centered equivalents– we have lost our ability to bring transformation to broken people– like us.”

Like many folks I’ve had some “bad times” in life and could again if Christ wasn’t in my life as strongly as he is today. While I am not a fan of the “make a meeting” approach propagated by the AA/NA culture of today I do admire the 12 steps and the initial goal of the Big Book: to provide healing for the sick and suffering alcoholic (sinner). I don’t think the original founders intended for AA to become their “religion’ but by definition AA is a religious organization. That is something people do not like to hear but it is.

Now, AA does offer some healing and we are to be lights to those in the world so attending meetings isn’t a totally bad thing necessarily.

I know that I got a lot more out of the 8 hours I did stepwork with a sponsor then I did the 800 or so hours I may have logged over six or so years of attending AA fairly regularly. I found after a time that if I am truly a “new creation” (1 Cor 5) and I’ve confessed my sins (1 John 1:9) then it is time to forget the past and move on to where He would like you to go. I just don’t see how talking about or listening about problems day in and day out (drunk-a-logs, grand-standing) helps. You give it to God and let him handle it and move on!

That is my take, anyhow, though I do wish more churches took on the Celebrate Recovery principles and applied them to all dependencies and stopped judging those whose issues are culturally considered maybe “worse” others. Sin is sin though I’ll admit that as a human being I certainly see some sins as worse then others.

I have noticed that so many do not have a basis of understanding of the scripture and when one does God tends to reveal more wisdom in it’s pages. I now understand the term the “Living Word”. I asked you this question because as I have said before you seem to have experienced and understand the love and mercy shown in the pages of the scripture as does your wife and Philip Yancy and others that write for “Our Daily Bread”. I find that this is not the norm and to me is such a breathe of fresh air in this world we live in. I feel like that is what we are called to be a breathe of fresh air to others.

My son is in bible college to become a youth pastor yet reading the bible itself all the way through never seems to be an urgency and I really am confused by that and do not understand. I have wanted to go to seminary but am hesitant because I fear the legalism that I may find or even the lack of understanding. I do know that God has a plan for me and I wait in expectancy for that revelation. I so enjoy RBC ministries and am thankful for all who are involved.

In respect,
Deborah

My guess is that you are right in assuming the possibility and probability of all kinds of wrong and mixed motives for our obsession with something new. Sounds just like what Paul saw on Mars Hill (Acts 17:21).

On the other hand, I’m convinced that Jesus, Paul, Solomon, and the prophets regularly reached outside of the Scriptures to find an analogy or something that would help listeners/readers to rediscover what they had learned to overlook in the law and wisdom of God.

Am sure we’d agree that the danger shows up when we use a token approach to the Bible as an excuse to look beyond Scripture and Jesus. A better option is to use something outside of the Bible to rediscover what we have forgotten about the Scriptures.

In the case of the above 12 Step post, my intent was to use 12 Step Recovery (which had its origin in the Christian Oxford movement) as a means of helping some of us rediscover the breadth and depth of the Christ-centered wisdom of the Bible. Seems to me there are few things more dangerous than a “familiarity” that blinds us to what we think we know.

The 12 steps were a way for me to be healed and brought back to a position whereby I was once again sane, clear-headed and of use to the world. Once I had reached that point (which took over 2 years!) I felt God tell me to leave AA and to rely on Him. It was a scary time for me but I am 100% convinced it was the right thing to do.

I do not hold with some of the teachings of AA such as ‘once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic’ – does this not contradict the teaching that ‘all things are possible with God?’. Also, AA teaches only to pray for what you need, never to ask for things. But the bible teaches us that we should ‘ask whatver you wish’. From my experience, praying the AA way does not allow you to experience the Father heart of God and the joy of being a son to Him. Instead there is always a barrier, a servant/master type relationship. There are many, many other little things that AA teaches that contradict the message of the bible. Reading those 12 steps and knowing the teachings of AA and how they interpret those 12 steps are 2 different things.

Ultimately, in my opinion, the 12 steps were a wonderful gateway to God, a healing archway through which I needed to pass before I could enjoy a relationship with God. But I do not believe that the 12 steps are a way of living nor are the rooms of AA or other fellowships places that you should stay for life.

I have a question that I have asked the Lord for wisdom but would also like to get your take. I struggle with the issue that it seems like we go to all other authorities and authors outside of God’s word to find the healing that is in something written so long ago like the bible with the guidance of the Holy Spirit that leads us to all truths about God and how He works. It seems like somebody is always coming up with something new to read or a new program etc. when we have the Word already. I am so confused is it just for people to make money or have their name on something. What is wrong with what we already have? Are we constantly trying to reinvent the wheel? Or to develop a new curriculum? What is wrong with just the basics? Is my confusion justified or am I wrong in my thinking?

…and as my Mother used to say, “May you be in heaven 5 minutes before the devil knows you’re dead” – an Irish blessing.

God rest my mums soul. As many said, she bore the map of Ireland on her face. “Celebrate her passing,” they’d say “for she’s in a far better place than you are now.”

“God smiles on the Irish because they make Him laugh.”
I can atribute the quote to none other than….me, but I can also say that God smiles on us all that consider the word of the Lord and accept Him into our lives.

Sleep well and be at peace.

Good night all and and God bless.

Let’s all take 2 steps back though and look at the 3 questions that Mart posed.

1.”Does our way of “doing church” leave out elements of Christ-centered wisdom that the founders of 12 Step Recovery included?”

I would say that in many organized churches, the intent is there but the delivery is weak or lost in transmission. It is muddied by perception of personal position in the political hierarchy of “church”. I again cite my “Army of Generals” example. The 12 steps are fundamental teachings of Christ to “be a good person”

2.”Look again at the Twelve Steps and look at their parallel to the wisdom of the Bible. And if we’re going to focus on what they leave out– are we ready to include in our own “church life” what Recovery does more faithfully than we do?”

I would say that the answer for those who choose to focus on what they leave out is that they should be ready to do this. If not, their foundations are weak. The only “end” and “final” interpretation to Christs word lies with Christ Himself. We only ever TRY to understand his meaning in the context of the life he lead and how it brings us closer to Him. Let any among us say that he/she truly understands implicitly everything that Christ teaches be the first to call out. We are students and He is our teacher. The falcon never calls the falconer. We remain eternal students of Christ.

3. “If we can agree that such principles don’t make a church– can we also agree that if our church experience lacks appropriate Christ-centered equivalents– we have lost our ability to bring transformation to broken people– like us.”

This is much less a question than a statement.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts on the subject. God bless.

Farthermore, the reason that people attend CR is to experience worship, a testimony, a lesson, and a time of sharing their brokeness and/or praise in a safe environment with fellow believers. Unfortunately, this is something that I have not yet found in a typical church gathering…with the exception of a previous small group that I have had the privelege of attending. There is no comparison to the spiritual growth and blessings that come from genuine confession.

Thank you for the topic and thank you for allowing me to share.

Please see the 8 Principles below:

8 PRINCIPLES of CELEBRATE RECOVERY
(based on the Beatitudes)

1. Realize I’m not God; I admit that I am powerless to control my tendency to do the wrong thing and my life is unmanageable.
“Happy are those who know they are spiritually poor”
2. Earnestly believe that God exists, that I matter to him, and that he has the power to help me recover.
“Happy are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted”
3. Consciously choose to commit all my life and will to Christ’s care and control.
“Happy are the meek”
4. Openly examine and confess my faults to God, to myself, and to another person whom I trust.
“Happy are the pure in heart”
5. Voluntarily submit to any and all changes God wants to make in my life. “Happy are those whose greatest desire is to do what God requires”
6. Evaluate all my relationships; Offer forgiveness to those who have hurt me and make amends for harm I’ve done to others when possible, without expecting any reward.
“Happy are the merciful” “Happy are the peacemakers”
7. Reserve a daily time with God for prayer, Bible reading, and self-examination in order to know God and his will for my life and to gain the power to follow his will.
8. Yield myself to be used by God to bring this Good News to others, both by my example and by my words.
“Happy are those who are persecuted because they do what God requires”