Comments on: Emerging Problems http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/10/28/emerging-problems/ with Mart De Haan and Friends Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:36:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Mart De Haan http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/10/28/emerging-problems/#comment-3200 Mart De Haan Mon, 03 Nov 2008 11:02:35 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=1877#comment-3200 Cookie, I appreciate your concern. It is dangerous to approve of anything that the Lord disapproves of. But much of what is said about some "emerging" or "traditional evangelical" churches is only true of some and not all. What if we called attention to books and internet sites that claim that "traditional evangelical churches" are guilty of every mistake of the Pharisees that Jesus lamented with the "woes" of Matthew 23:13-29? What if we could also show that these books really are identifying some dangerous issues in some "traditional evangelical" churches? Would we then be justified in supporting a rumor mill that all "traditional evangelical" churches are dangerous and to be condemned as a movement? Even if we could make the case that there might be a lot of truth to the idea that there are some things within every "traditional evangelical" church that deserve a "woe" of warning? Would we overlook all of the good that many traditional evangelical churches are trying to do? The issue is that the movement of what are calling "emerging churches" is very broad and like "traditional evangelical churches" cannot be characterized as all good or all bad. My point is that in confronting the mistakes of any person or group we need to do so with self-reflection, truth, and grace. Cookie, I appreciate your concern. It is dangerous to approve of anything that the Lord disapproves of. But much of what is said about some “emerging” or “traditional evangelical” churches is only true of some and not all.

What if we called attention to books and internet sites that claim that “traditional evangelical churches” are guilty of every mistake of the Pharisees that Jesus lamented with the “woes” of Matthew 23:13-29? What if we could also show that these books really are identifying some dangerous issues in some “traditional evangelical” churches? Would we then be justified in supporting a rumor mill that all “traditional evangelical” churches are dangerous and to be condemned as a movement?

Even if we could make the case that there might be a lot of truth to the idea that there are some things within every “traditional evangelical” church that deserve a “woe” of warning? Would we overlook all of the good that many traditional evangelical churches are trying to do?

The issue is that the movement of what are calling “emerging churches” is very broad and like “traditional evangelical churches” cannot be characterized as all good or all bad.

My point is that in confronting the mistakes of any person or group we need to do so with self-reflection, truth, and grace.

]]> By: Cookie http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/10/28/emerging-problems/#comment-3199 Cookie Mon, 03 Nov 2008 07:24:02 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=1877#comment-3199 This is the first time I've come on your site, but I have received many blessings from RBC and have respected your opinions for years. That to say, I'm heart broken at what I have just read in your blogs of the Emerging church. I don't want to insult you, but it seemed without research of what is going on within that movement. And it seemed like a bone tossed out with no meat to it. Yes, there is always needed improvement within the church body and fellowships and naturally in us believers. We fail miserably so very much. But to seek peace at all costs with what may be labeled as Christian or 'church' can be a dangerous thing. God's word admonishes us to test the spirits 1John 4:1 and that there will be those that want their ears tickled 2Timothy 4:3&4. The things that the emerging movement is incorporating into their practices is not 'new' it is eastern mysticism plus acceptance of things the Lord has spoken against. It doesn't mean that I don't have things that need to be brought before the Lord. It means we all need to be acountable to God's word and grow in love and grace without allowing wrong teachings to be apart of His church. What is the saying that implies to be able to overlook incidentals (non-Salvation issues), but hold fast to the issues of Salvation... God's word also says in Hosea 4:6a "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge." and in Isaiah 5:20a,b "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness." I made the mistake of seeking 'peace' between two 'sides' recently without having all the facts and ended up multiplying the problem. It allowed the wrong to gain a bigger hold. My intent was good, my admonishments sounded godly; my actions got in the Lord's way and there were consequences (Just a note for awareness.) I see some people that I felt were firmly planted in God's truth, seem to be blinded to some obvious errors of belief concerning this movement and a couple of other things that are going on. I pray we will all seek the Lord, desire His truth and His way and be able to love and reach out without compromising that truth and the holiness of our Lord God Almighty. In the Love of Jesus, Cookie This is the first time I’ve come on your site, but I have received many blessings from RBC and have respected your opinions for years. That to say, I’m heart broken at what I have just read in your blogs of the Emerging church. I don’t want to insult you, but it seemed without research of what is going on within that movement. And it seemed like a bone tossed out with no meat to it. Yes, there is always needed improvement within the church body and fellowships and naturally in us believers. We fail miserably so very much. But to seek peace at all costs with what may be labeled as Christian or ‘church’ can be a dangerous thing. God’s word admonishes us to test the spirits 1John 4:1 and that there will be those that want their ears tickled 2Timothy 4:3&4. The things that the emerging movement is incorporating into their practices is not ‘new’ it is eastern mysticism plus acceptance of things the Lord has spoken against. It doesn’t mean that I don’t have things that need to be brought before the Lord. It means we all need to be acountable to God’s word and grow in love and grace without allowing wrong teachings to be apart of His church. What is the saying that implies to be able to overlook incidentals (non-Salvation issues), but hold fast to the issues of Salvation… God’s word also says in Hosea 4:6a “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.” and in Isaiah 5:20a,b “Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness.” I made the mistake of seeking ‘peace’ between two ’sides’ recently without having all the facts and ended up multiplying the problem. It allowed the wrong to gain a bigger hold. My intent was good, my admonishments sounded godly; my actions got in the Lord’s way and there were consequences (Just a note for awareness.) I see some people that I felt were firmly planted in God’s truth, seem to be blinded to some obvious errors of belief concerning this movement and a couple of other things that are going on. I pray we will all seek the Lord, desire His truth and His way and be able to love and reach out without compromising that truth and the holiness of our Lord God Almighty. In the Love of Jesus, Cookie

]]> By: fhdsmd123 http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/10/28/emerging-problems/#comment-3139 fhdsmd123 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 14:05:37 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=1877#comment-3139 I had never heard of the emerging church until an old pastor friend of mine brought it to my attention. He warned me of how dangeros this movement was becoming. I explored this "movement" on the internet and found many errors in thier beliefs. As stated by a writer earlier, they are very generic in the Gospel and their doctrines. But worst of all is the thought that the our God and the death, burial and rising of our Lord Jesus Christ is not the sole means to eternity in Heaven. Other forms of belief are acceptable if they point to the "right" direction. I had never heard of the emerging church until an old pastor friend of mine brought it to my attention. He warned me of how dangeros this movement was becoming. I explored this “movement” on the internet and found many errors in thier beliefs. As stated by a writer earlier, they are very generic in the Gospel and their doctrines. But worst of all is the thought that the our God and the death, burial and rising of our Lord Jesus Christ is not the sole means to eternity in Heaven. Other forms of belief are acceptable if they point to the “right” direction.

]]> By: Terry http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/10/28/emerging-problems/#comment-3129 Terry Thu, 30 Oct 2008 01:33:51 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=1877#comment-3129 I certainly respect and appreciate the RBC Ministries and the Bro. DeHaan and his father and grandfather and all the wonderful people with the ministry. Now in regards to this MODERN EMERGING CHURCH, I have noticed major problems that need addressing, especially with the worship services: 1. Much of the music is generic. Who are they singing to? Allah, Hindu gods, Bill Clinton? Jesus is left out of some songs. 2. The Scriptures often are secondary, if not last among the priorities. The music and the beat seems to be the message? 3. There are devotionals, but little, if any solid expository preaching of the WORD. Read I Cor. 1:18. 4. Dress and appearance implies that our HOLY GOD is one of the boys and doesn't care how we dress? Is this what our HOLY GOD expected in the O.T.? Would we honor our dead at a funeral with the same dress style? So, who do we honor most, the dead or our living God? What does the N.T. say about holiness and worship before a HOLY GOD? 5. Doctrine is not elevated nor fully taught in many of these events. What does the Bible say on this? II Tim. 4:2. 6. The churches seem to be taking on the culture rather than the reverse. Jhn. 15:19. 7. The church is for the saved, not the lost. Although we invite the lost to come and hear and learn the gospel. But isn't our priority to worship, love and serve God (Matt. 22:36-40) first before we try to do evangelism? 8. Are we so deperate for numbers and crowds that we have to seemingly lower the "bar" to reach people? 9. Seldom is "hell" and "judgement" proclaimed in these movements that I have heard and attended. 10. Does the local tavern have Bibles, hymnals, offering plates and a cross to draw believers? If not, why are we lowering God's standards to reach the lost? Does the end justify the means? I wonder what Jesus has to say about this? Marketing of the church? We have become a business with CEO's.... statistics and boasting rather than holy and Godly living. Yes, we believers must make some changes to each generation, but not to the extremes as we are now seeing. With all noise and "hoop-la", where are the great revivals, awakenings, etc.? Why is our nation near spirtual collaspe with all this spiritual noise going on? I'm sure there are some solid Bible-believing church amongst these social clubs and some doctrinally sound, but dead traditional churches. But those who claim to be believers who've been in the closet for years are now coming out saying, "Let's go to church because they are playing our song" makes me wonder have they really heard the complete pure Gospel of old-fashioned repentance and faith or just a "feel-good.. ..come one come all......movement? We need reform for sure. We need some real Martin Luther's, Charles Spurgeons, and R.A. Torrey's for our day! Thanks for listening. May God's grace help us all to hunger and thirst for righteousness according to the Bible and not the latest "fad" or what they are doing on the west coast or in Chicago!! May Jesus be Lord of our lives and lead us all.....traditional or modern. Amen! Let's drop the psychology and vitamin preaching and proclaim GOD'S WORD! Let the chips fall where they may. "Let God Be True and every man a liar!" Let us make righteous judgements once again. I pray no one will respond with worldly reasoning and "how someone was saved because they heard a lonely guy playing his guitar sitting on the Lord's Supper table, but Biblical exegesis to substantiate what is happening in our day. I am not against change. But today's change seems more out of rebellion against the former generation. But I do thank God for all true youth, youth leaders and many others of varying persuations that desire to truly know, love and serve God! I certainly respect and appreciate the RBC Ministries and the Bro. DeHaan and his father and grandfather and all the wonderful people with the ministry. Now in regards to this MODERN EMERGING CHURCH, I have noticed
major problems that need addressing, especially with
the worship services:
1. Much of the music is generic. Who are
they singing to? Allah, Hindu gods, Bill
Clinton? Jesus is left out of some songs.
2. The Scriptures often are secondary, if
not last among the priorities. The music
and the beat seems to be the message?
3. There are devotionals, but little, if
any solid expository preaching of the WORD.
Read I Cor. 1:18.
4. Dress and appearance implies that our
HOLY GOD is one of the boys and doesn’t
care how we dress? Is this what our HOLY
GOD expected in the O.T.? Would we honor our
dead at a funeral with the same dress style?
So, who do we honor most, the dead or our
living God? What does the N.T. say about
holiness and worship before a HOLY GOD?
5. Doctrine is not elevated nor fully
taught in many of these events. What does
the Bible say on this? II Tim. 4:2.
6. The churches seem to be taking on the
culture rather than the reverse. Jhn. 15:19.
7. The church is for the saved, not the
lost. Although we invite the lost to come
and hear and learn the gospel. But isn’t our
priority to worship, love and serve God
(Matt. 22:36-40) first before we try to do
evangelism?
8. Are we so deperate for numbers and
crowds that we have to seemingly lower the
“bar” to reach people?
9. Seldom is “hell” and “judgement”
proclaimed in these movements that I have
heard and attended.
10. Does the local tavern have Bibles,
hymnals, offering plates and a cross to
draw believers? If not, why are we lowering
God’s standards to reach the lost? Does the
end justify the means?
I wonder what Jesus has to say about this? Marketing of
the church? We have become a business with CEO’s….
statistics and boasting rather than holy and Godly living. Yes, we believers must make some changes to each generation, but not to the extremes as we are now seeing. With all noise and “hoop-la”, where are the
great revivals, awakenings, etc.? Why is our nation
near spirtual collaspe with all this spiritual noise
going on? I’m sure there are some solid Bible-believing
church amongst these social clubs and some doctrinally
sound, but dead traditional churches. But those who
claim to be believers who’ve been in the closet for years are now coming out saying, “Let’s go to church
because they are playing our song” makes me wonder have they really heard the complete pure Gospel of old-fashioned repentance and faith or just a “feel-good..
..come one come all……movement? We need reform for sure. We need some real Martin Luther’s, Charles Spurgeons, and R.A. Torrey’s for our day! Thanks for listening. May God’s grace help us all to hunger and thirst for righteousness according to the Bible and not the latest “fad” or what they are doing on the west
coast or in Chicago!! May Jesus be Lord of our lives
and lead us all…..traditional or modern. Amen!
Let’s drop the psychology and vitamin preaching and
proclaim GOD’S WORD! Let the chips fall where they may.
“Let God Be True and every man a liar!” Let us make
righteous judgements once again. I pray no one will respond with worldly reasoning and “how someone was saved because they heard a lonely guy playing his guitar sitting on the Lord’s Supper table, but Biblical exegesis to substantiate what is happening in our day.
I am not against change. But today’s change seems more
out of rebellion against the former generation. But I
do thank God for all true youth, youth leaders and many others of varying persuations that desire to truly know,
love and serve God!

]]> By: scottn http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/10/28/emerging-problems/#comment-3102 scottn Wed, 29 Oct 2008 09:29:12 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=1877#comment-3102 Hey Mart, Last Sunday I attended a mega church that was preaching an “I am sorry” theme. The church reported, “Research says the majority of people now view Christianity as hypocritical, intolerant and even hateful. How did the Church get such a bad reputation?” I wrote a poem in response to my feelings. I’m sorry I have done it again I am guilty They accuse me Are they right? It’s not the first Like they said (Barna) It’s not the last Like He said. Why do we agonize? Listen to what He said Not what she said Will we ever make them happy? He couldn’t Scott Hey Mart,

Last Sunday I attended a mega church that was preaching an “I am sorry” theme. The church reported, “Research says the majority of people now view Christianity as hypocritical, intolerant and even hateful. How did the Church get such a bad reputation?”

I wrote a poem in response to my feelings.

I’m sorry

I have done it again
I am guilty
They accuse me
Are they right?

It’s not the first
Like they said (Barna)
It’s not the last
Like He said.

Why do we agonize?
Listen to what He said
Not what she said
Will we ever make them happy?

He couldn’t

Scott

]]> By: Ted M. Gossard http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/10/28/emerging-problems/#comment-3101 Ted M. Gossard Wed, 29 Oct 2008 04:27:51 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=1877#comment-3101 Mart, Thanks for another helpful post on this. Yes, and I think they're learning and responding to critiques from people like you who take the time to listen to them and be friends with them, in Jesus. We all carry with us problems, and yes, I see the pendulum swing in myself at times, in reaction to what I see to be wrong. So we must seek to stay grounded in Scripture and in Jesus in the fellowship of the church, of course. Mart,
Thanks for another helpful post on this. Yes, and I think they’re learning and responding to critiques from people like you who take the time to listen to them and be friends with them, in Jesus.

We all carry with us problems, and yes, I see the pendulum swing in myself at times, in reaction to what I see to be wrong. So we must seek to stay grounded in Scripture and in Jesus in the fellowship of the church, of course.

]]> By: rokdude5 http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/10/28/emerging-problems/#comment-3100 rokdude5 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 03:47:08 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=1877#comment-3100 Mart, Thanks for your kind thoughts. SFDBWV, I do think if able to, attending church matters. I dont think there is some prescribed quorum or program but for me, I may think all is well of myself if I dont hear someone point out my shortcomings. My wife has a problem with "organized religion". I recently found out that my pastor at one time had a problems with "organized religion" as well. Now Im wondering who doesnt? As long as I go to worship, hear the Word with sound doctrine, then Im going to church - not because I have to but because I want to. Mart, Thanks for your kind thoughts.

SFDBWV, I do think if able to, attending church matters. I dont think there is some prescribed quorum or program but for me, I may think all is well of myself if I dont hear someone point out my shortcomings.

My wife has a problem with “organized religion”. I recently found out that my pastor at one time had a problems with “organized religion” as well. Now Im wondering who doesnt? As long as I go to worship, hear the Word with sound doctrine, then Im going to church – not because I have to but because I want to.

]]> By: Your Love Inspires http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/10/28/emerging-problems/#comment-3099 Your Love Inspires Wed, 29 Oct 2008 02:00:22 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=1877#comment-3099 I think we the church should start off with the basics... integrity, honesty, genuine Christ like love for the lost, knowing when to say we are sorry for wrongs committed to others through our self centeredness which is often times cloaked in self righteousness... my God, the list goes on. I believe a Christ centered witness is worth any "new and improved" idea on how to present The Gospel. Jesus smiles when He is raised up as people notice the fruit of His Spirit in our walk and ask that wonderful question... "Are you a Christian." I think we the church should start off with the basics… integrity, honesty, genuine Christ like love for the lost, knowing when to say we are sorry for wrongs committed to others through our self centeredness which is often times cloaked in self righteousness… my God, the list goes on. I believe a Christ centered witness is worth any “new and improved” idea on how to present The Gospel. Jesus smiles when He is raised up as people notice the fruit of His Spirit in our walk and ask that wonderful question… “Are you a Christian.”

]]> By: SLAIR132 http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/10/28/emerging-problems/#comment-3098 SLAIR132 Wed, 29 Oct 2008 00:26:24 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=1877#comment-3098 this is what I believe, read the word,pray the word and do very best to live the word.Keep tring to do your best, never stopping. Keep right on praying without stopping always talking to the Father and be very attentive to listen for His voice. One thing that is very important is not to let todays culture of things and of changing times change you and or the way GOD wants things to be done. this is what I believe, read the word,pray the word and do very best to live the word.Keep tring to do your best, never stopping. Keep right on praying without stopping always talking to the Father and be very attentive to listen for His voice. One thing that is very important is not to let todays culture of things and of changing times change you and or the way GOD wants things to be done.

]]> By: daisymarygoldr http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/10/28/emerging-problems/#comment-3097 daisymarygoldr Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:41:00 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=1877#comment-3097 Truth is one: one unchanging God, one Christ, one Spirit, one mind and one body. If the parental generation has obeyed the one and only Word of God and has followed the one and only way of the cross, where, how and why should the successive filial generations differ??? Now, if the parents admit that we have made a mistake in following the Lord, then of course it is something to be happy about…that our children are not committing the same errors. So, you should not expect a unanimous agreement to your suggestion of applauding, encouraging and learning from our kids…that’s a shame:( because we should be the ones to teach them about the truth. Unless, someone claims to have learned the regular physical life activities like eating, walking, talking etc from their children! This whole concept sounds really weird and strange to my ears… SFDBWV, good Q…and drkennyg, good answer about small groups! Don’t know about “falling away from church” and not sure if it is good or even the right thing to do… Personally, I know several people living in pagan countries that have accepted Jesus Christ but are unable to share their newfound faith and joy with their families for fear of persecution and rejection…especially women who get badly beaten by their heartless husbands. They can never think of attending a church but are allowed to have Christian women friends who visit them when the men are away at work…they get together one-on-one or in a group to study the Bible and pray. These are called “secret believers”…and they do belong to the universal, invisible Church that is not made with hands! Truth is one: one unchanging God, one Christ, one Spirit, one mind and one body. If the parental generation has obeyed the one and only Word of God and has followed the one and only way of the cross, where, how and why should the successive filial generations differ???

Now, if the parents admit that we have made a mistake in following the Lord, then of course it is something to be happy about…that our children are not committing the same errors. So, you should not expect a unanimous agreement to your suggestion of applauding, encouraging and learning from our kids…that’s a shame:( because we should be the ones to teach them about the truth. Unless, someone claims to have learned the regular physical life activities like eating, walking, talking etc from their children! This whole concept sounds really weird and strange to my ears…

SFDBWV, good Q…and drkennyg, good answer about small groups! Don’t know about “falling away from church” and not sure if it is good or even the right thing to do…
Personally, I know several people living in pagan countries that have accepted Jesus Christ but are unable to share their newfound faith and joy with their families for fear of persecution and rejection…especially women who get badly beaten by their heartless husbands. They can never think of attending a church but are allowed to have Christian women friends who visit them when the men are away at work…they get together one-on-one or in a group to study the Bible and pray. These are called “secret believers”…and they do belong to the universal, invisible Church that is not made with hands!

]]>