Comments on: This Election and Emerging Churches http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/11/02/this-election-and-emerging-churches/ with Mart De Haan and Friends Sun, 14 Mar 2010 16:53:28 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: onelove http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/11/02/this-election-and-emerging-churches/#comment-3330 onelove Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:15:36 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=2008#comment-3330 I agree with Geordie, I believe that the a lot of the church has bought into the worldly view of "tolerance" which is to accept the sin and the sinner alike. Christians are labeled judgemental because we stand against sin knowing its destructive power in everyone's life. We are called not to judge any soul, however when it comes to labeling sinful behavior we absolutely have to take our stance. It is this watered down form of tolerance that is leading our church astray and creating lukewarm christians, and we all know God's feeling on lukewarm christianity.... Churches who teach that there is more than one way to God, that homosexuality is not destructive but merely a lifestyle, and that abortion is a personal choice rather than the destruction of a soul created in God's image are examples of watered down churches. I know some of you will read my examples and cringe, admonishing me to keep a spirit of love and acceptance and not be so darn specific, but I have seen how broken these sins leave people and can not in good conscience condone any of the above. I was once told by a fellow Christian that even Jesus did not throw a stone at the adultress so who are we to judge? My response to this is a response to the sickness within our church as a whole-Jesus did not throw the stone but he did say "go and sin no more". He recognized she was engaging in destructive behavior and told her bluntly to stop. He didn't say "Look I know you weren't feeling loved by your husband and kind of fell into this.. or other words of sympathy. He simply said stop. It is this example we need to follow. As Christians it is our job to go to our church leaders if we see that their teachings have strayed from the bible in order to fill more pews. If Christians we walk closely with are destroying their lives with sin we need to be loving and honest. As a church it is important to acknowledge there are right and wrong choices and make sure our views of tolerance reflect those of our Christ. I agree that the concept of church needs tweaking, more focus on true love without expectations from others or pride, however lets be certain that in our desperate attempt to convey love we don't sympathize with sin. I agree with Geordie, I believe that the a lot of the church has bought into the worldly view of “tolerance” which is to accept the sin and the sinner alike. Christians are labeled judgemental because we stand against sin knowing its destructive power in everyone’s life. We are called not to judge any soul, however when it comes to labeling sinful behavior we absolutely have to take our stance. It is this watered down form of tolerance that is leading our church astray and creating lukewarm christians, and we all know God’s feeling on lukewarm christianity…. Churches who teach that there is more than one way to God, that homosexuality is not destructive but merely a lifestyle, and that abortion is a personal choice rather than the destruction of a soul created in God’s image are examples of watered down churches. I know some of you will read my examples and cringe, admonishing me to keep a spirit of love and acceptance and not be so darn specific, but I have seen how broken these sins leave people and can not in good conscience condone any of the above. I was once told by a fellow Christian that even Jesus did not throw a stone at the adultress so who are we to judge? My response to this is a response to the sickness within our church as a whole-Jesus did not throw the stone but he did say “go and sin no more”. He recognized she was engaging in destructive behavior and told her bluntly to stop. He didn’t say “Look I know you weren’t feeling loved by your husband and kind of fell into this.. or other words of sympathy. He simply said stop. It is this example we need to follow. As Christians it is our job to go to our church leaders if we see that their teachings have strayed from the bible in order to fill more pews. If Christians we walk closely with are destroying their lives with sin we need to be loving and honest. As a church it is important to acknowledge there are right and wrong choices and make sure our views of tolerance reflect those of our Christ. I agree that the concept of church needs tweaking, more focus on true love without expectations from others or pride, however lets be certain that in our desperate attempt to convey love we don’t sympathize with sin.

]]> By: Geordie http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/11/02/this-election-and-emerging-churches/#comment-3225 Geordie Wed, 05 Nov 2008 14:46:25 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=2008#comment-3225 Mart, I appreciate your views about the "emerging church", but because of the way we refer to almost anything new as "emerging" we need to be extremely careful neither to condone or condemn the whole of a very broad and disparate group. Certainly there are exciting things happening with new approaches to reaching out, and the thoughts of needing to be in a formal church building setting are changing. This is all great, as long as the basic Christian beliefs remain, and I'm sure this is the case in large areas of the church. However, we must not sweep under the carpet the fact that there are some "emerging church" leaders that hold views which do not agree with Scripture, and are basically not Christian. Some high profile "emerging church" leaders are blatantly "universalist". Others hide behind the use of words which at face value sound to be OK, but actually reflect their sometimes heretical views. Others openly refute the truth of John 14:6 - that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and that no one comes to the Father except through Him. They see that you can be a "follower of Christ" but remain in another faith. In such situations it is right that we are critical - but there's a right way to do this. False teaching (which is what a small number of them give) will only lead their congregations away from Christ. I don't think that we can get away from our responsibility to stand up and be counted over matters of Salvation, but we should take time to understand what lies behind their views, and with patience and gentleness answer their questions by sharing the Scriptures with them. We must never jump to conclusions, and our benchmark and guide at all times must be God's Word with us being led by His Holy Spirit. If you want to get a good view of the "Emerging church" and the positives and the pitfalls, I have found a number of books helpful : - "Why we are not emergent (by two guys who should be)" : a very balanced view of the "emerging church" - Faith undone (Roger Oakland) : looking at the background and beliefs of many of the leaders, and the Scripture which refutes some of their more unacceptable beliefs - "A time of departing" : Ray Yungen - similar to Roger Oakland's book - A time of departing (Ray Jungen) Mart, I appreciate your views about the “emerging church”, but because of the way we refer to almost anything new as “emerging” we need to be extremely careful neither to condone or condemn the whole of a very broad and disparate group. Certainly there are exciting things happening with new approaches to reaching out, and the thoughts of needing to be in a formal church building setting are changing. This is all great, as long as the basic Christian beliefs remain, and I’m sure this is the case in large areas of the church.

However, we must not sweep under the carpet the fact that there are some “emerging church” leaders that hold views which do not agree with Scripture, and are basically not Christian. Some high profile “emerging church” leaders are blatantly “universalist”. Others hide behind the use of words which at face value sound to be OK, but actually reflect their sometimes heretical views. Others openly refute the truth of John 14:6 – that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and that no one comes to the Father except through Him. They see that you can be a “follower of Christ” but remain in another faith. In such situations it is right that we are critical – but there’s a right way to do this. False teaching (which is what a small number of them give) will only lead their congregations away from Christ. I don’t think that we can get away from our responsibility to stand up and be counted over matters of Salvation, but we should take time to understand what lies behind their views, and with patience and gentleness answer their questions by sharing the Scriptures with them. We must never jump to conclusions, and our benchmark and guide at all times must be God’s Word with us being led by His Holy Spirit.

If you want to get a good view of the “Emerging church” and the positives and the pitfalls, I have found a number of books helpful :
- “Why we are not emergent (by two guys who should be)” : a very balanced view of the “emerging church”
- Faith undone (Roger Oakland) : looking at the background and beliefs of many of the leaders, and the Scripture which refutes some of their more unacceptable beliefs
- “A time of departing” : Ray Yungen – similar to Roger Oakland’s book
- A time of departing (Ray Jungen)

]]> By: poohpity http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/11/02/this-election-and-emerging-churches/#comment-3216 poohpity Tue, 04 Nov 2008 14:25:45 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=2008#comment-3216 We fall like Peter did when we have our eyes on the water and not the Lord. So when we hold people in the place the Lord should have in our lives we fall into the pit. It may not be instantly but it will happen slowly because their foundation is on shifting sand. God's word will always remain because it is truth and the more people that read it with the Holy Spirit as their guide they will know truth and it will set them free. It seems like because more people are reading it and understanding what it says that is what is causing the divisions. Awareness promotes change and people are beginning to question what they are being taught when comparing it to God's word. You can not just take parts, the bible needs to be read from cover to cover to understand what God has allowed us to learn. I think this is what is causing the church to change and emerge from darkness. We fall like Peter did when we have our eyes on the water and not the Lord. So when we hold people in the place the Lord should have in our lives we fall into the pit. It may not be instantly but it will happen slowly because their foundation is on shifting sand. God’s word will always remain because it is truth and the more people that read it with the Holy Spirit as their guide they will know truth and it will set them free. It seems like because more people are reading it and understanding what it says that is what is causing the divisions. Awareness promotes change and people are beginning to question what they are being taught when comparing it to God’s word. You can not just take parts, the bible needs to be read from cover to cover to understand what God has allowed us to learn. I think this is what is causing the church to change and emerge from darkness.

]]> By: Gena http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/11/02/this-election-and-emerging-churches/#comment-3210 Gena Tue, 04 Nov 2008 00:44:38 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=2008#comment-3210 Here's another perspective to consider! I'am a deaf person who has attended two churches of the same denomination that have deaf ministries. I left the first church upon learning that certain members of the deaf class were taking a consensus against me to prove that certain deaf could not understand my sign language skills. The next deaf ministry, I left because a certain deaf SS member got so irate at another that that person went right up to the offensive persons face and delievered a berating that totally shocked me. The deaf christian community in my area is tightly controlled by key deaf persons. Hearing individuals try to help the deaf by providing interpreters. At both churches, hearing individuals had to step in to control the wayward situations, thus preventing deaf to play important roles within their deaf ministries. No one wants to love one another as scripture says. It's sad that even among the handicapped there is internal strife in churches today. Here’s another perspective to consider! I’am a deaf person who has attended two churches of the same denomination that have deaf ministries. I left the first church upon learning that certain members of the deaf class were taking a consensus against me to prove that certain deaf could not understand my sign language skills. The next deaf ministry, I left because a certain deaf SS member got so irate at another that that person went right up to the offensive persons face and delievered a berating that totally shocked me. The deaf christian community in my area is tightly controlled by key deaf persons. Hearing individuals try to help the deaf by providing interpreters. At both churches, hearing individuals had to step in to control the wayward situations, thus preventing deaf to play important roles within their deaf ministries. No one wants to love one another as scripture says. It’s sad that even among the handicapped there is internal strife in churches today.

]]> By: Mart De Haan http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/11/02/this-election-and-emerging-churches/#comment-3209 Mart De Haan Tue, 04 Nov 2008 00:36:49 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=2008#comment-3209 I find it interesting that, in Romans chapter 14--in matters not related to orthodoxy, but rather to personal preferences and opinions,-- an inspired Apostle Paul teaches us to respect one another in our differences... since we all will give account of ourselves to the Lord. I find it interesting that, in Romans chapter 14–in matters not related to orthodoxy, but rather to personal preferences and opinions,– an inspired Apostle Paul teaches us to respect one another in our differences… since we all will give account of ourselves to the Lord.

]]> By: SFDBWV http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/11/02/this-election-and-emerging-churches/#comment-3208 SFDBWV Tue, 04 Nov 2008 00:14:09 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=2008#comment-3208 daisymarygoldr, I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed your last post. Very well said. daisymarygoldr, I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed your last post. Very well said.

]]> By: fastgranny http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/11/02/this-election-and-emerging-churches/#comment-3207 fastgranny Mon, 03 Nov 2008 22:09:57 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=2008#comment-3207 Hi, There are so many thoughts and questions posed in these comments. It saddens me to hear how so many have found it difficult to find a church where all ages can come at the same time and worship together. I have no problem with the emergent church but wonder why we can’t learn to put our own preferences aside and create an atmosphere that all ages would find inviting to get our questions answered and for worship. I would love to tell you of the wonderful adults who welcomed me into their church when I was a young elementary age child. I truly felt loved by them and God used them to introduce me to Christ. Almost 50 years later I still remember them with great affection and appreciation for how they loved me into the kingdom and by their lives taught me what it meant to live as a follower of Christ. Today we attend a church that does much the same. The adults, even our senior adults, feel that one of our most important responsibilities is to demonstrate the love of Christ to the children, teens and young adults that come our way. That means that we sometime must put aside our own “personal preferences” for worship style so we can engage our young people. After all, it isn’t the style of our worship that matters to God; it’s our hearts. We blend new and some traditional hymns and have a worship band. We also include some of our young people in leading worship because they are as much a part of the church as us older adults. We also have many caring adults who lead small groups for young people as well. This has resulted in many of them bringing their unchurched friends from school and before you know it, those young people bring their parents and siblings. As our pastor says, “we majors on the majors”, the basic truths of God’s Word that defines our faith, and “minor on the minors”, those things that are not clear doctrinal issues spelled out in scripture like music and worship styles. It is wonderful to see people of all ages engaged in worship, interacting, and caring for each other. So far God has blessed us with slow steady growth for 40 years. This all started with a couple of founding families and continues today because of their love for Christ and dedication to share the good news with all. I think they got it right and I’m truly thankful for them and the example they set for the rest of us. Hi,
There are so many thoughts and questions posed in these comments. It saddens me to hear how so many have found it difficult to find a church where all ages can come at the same time and worship together. I have no problem with the emergent church but wonder why we can’t learn to put our own preferences aside and create an atmosphere that all ages would find inviting to get our questions answered and for worship. I would love to tell you of the wonderful adults who welcomed me into their church when I was a young elementary age child. I truly felt loved by them and God used them to introduce me to Christ. Almost 50 years later I still remember them with great affection and appreciation for how they loved me into the kingdom and by their lives taught me what it meant to live as a follower of Christ.

Today we attend a church that does much the same. The adults, even our senior adults, feel that one of our most important responsibilities is to demonstrate the love of Christ to the children, teens and young adults that come our way. That means that we sometime must put aside our own “personal preferences” for worship style so we can engage our young people. After all, it isn’t the style of our worship that matters to God; it’s our hearts. We blend new and some traditional hymns and have a worship band. We also include some of our young people in leading worship because they are as much a part of the church as us older adults. We also have many caring adults who lead small groups for young people as well. This has resulted in many of them bringing their unchurched friends from school and before you know it, those young people bring their parents and siblings. As our pastor says, “we majors on the majors”, the basic truths of God’s Word that defines our faith, and “minor on the minors”, those things that are not clear doctrinal issues spelled out in scripture like music and worship styles. It is wonderful to see people of all ages engaged in worship, interacting, and caring for each other. So far God has blessed us with slow steady growth for 40 years. This all started with a couple of founding families and continues today because of their love for Christ and dedication to share the good news with all. I think they got it right and I’m truly thankful for them and the example they set for the rest of us.

]]> By: daisymarygoldr http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/11/02/this-election-and-emerging-churches/#comment-3206 daisymarygoldr Mon, 03 Nov 2008 21:29:39 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=2008#comment-3206 Question: “Why is God’s church so divided???!” Answer: The Church is divided: due to our ignorance of God’s word, our failure to follow His way, our pride in our self-opinions that are passed on and taught as twisted truths and our selfish ambitions in wanting to do our own thing in our own way. In vain we do worship God, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Instead of following Christ, we are following every other human leader… and then when trouble strikes we all huddle together to raise our voices in unison, to sing the melancholy strain- “Woe is unto me…it is Dark ____ (fill in the blank yourselves)” God is not divided, nor is He the author of confusion. Division is the result of the curse that originated at the tower of Babel when all people were united together against God. Is Christ divided? Let us not be ignorant, for there are many members but one body, several functions yet one purpose, diversities of gifts but one Spirit, differences of administrations but one Lord, various operations but one and the same God who works all in all…there is diversity but no disunity! Christ loved the church, and gave Himself for it…He is nourishing and providing for her, seeing her through all the growing pains, purifying her as gold tried in fire to eventually present her as His chaste bride. When He does not find fault with her why should we? If we want to quit the Church then we are outside His precious body and will be deprived of enjoying all the richness of His wonderful blessings that He has promised only for His Church! God has not changed, the wisdom of the Bible has not changed and yet we want to change. As succeeding generations evolve, the fashion of this world changes…with changes in our modes of communication, changes in styles of music and clothes, changes in the leadership and broadly speaking “the old order changeth yielding place to new” yet we all "speak the same thing" (I Cor 1:10 KJV)! Question: “Why is God’s church so divided???!”

Answer: The Church is divided: due to our ignorance of God’s word, our failure to follow His way, our pride in our self-opinions that are passed on and taught as twisted truths and our selfish ambitions in wanting to do our own thing in our own way. In vain we do worship God, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Instead of following Christ, we are following every other human leader… and then when trouble strikes we all huddle together to raise our voices in unison, to sing the melancholy strain- “Woe is unto me…it is Dark ____ (fill in the blank yourselves)”

God is not divided, nor is He the author of confusion. Division is the result of the curse that originated at the tower of Babel when all people were united together against God. Is Christ divided? Let us not be ignorant, for there are many members but one body, several functions yet one purpose, diversities of gifts but one Spirit, differences of administrations but one Lord, various operations but one and the same God who works all in all…there is diversity but no disunity!

Christ loved the church, and gave Himself for it…He is nourishing and providing for her, seeing her through all the growing pains, purifying her as gold tried in fire to eventually present her as His chaste bride. When He does not find fault with her why should we? If we want to quit the Church then we are outside His precious body and will be deprived of enjoying all the richness of His wonderful blessings that He has promised only for His Church!

God has not changed, the wisdom of the Bible has not changed and yet we want to change. As succeeding generations evolve, the fashion of this world changes…with changes in our modes of communication, changes in styles of music and clothes, changes in the leadership and broadly speaking “the old order changeth yielding place to new” yet we all “speak the same thing” (I Cor 1:10 KJV)!

]]> By: SFDBWV http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/11/02/this-election-and-emerging-churches/#comment-3205 SFDBWV Mon, 03 Nov 2008 20:51:41 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=2008#comment-3205 Thank you Mart, the information you provided about Wikipedia helped me a lot.. There is a great deal of information about this "movement" to digest. No one should argue with the point you make whereas " the validity of a church is not to be found in a label, but in whether a church is seeking to align itself in both beliefs and attitudes with the wisdom of the Bible and the person of Christ." Here in my neck of the woods, there are many and have always been. "break away" "churches. People who for various reasons just aren't happy with the "labeled" congregations they were attending. Though the number of people who attend them are very small. I find for the most part that in the basic principals they believe just like you and I. However they don't last too long. I wonder though, how many organizers of such congregations break away from their old church because of pride? Some I know just think they are smarter and a better preacher. They resist falling under the authority of a Pastor. I also wonder about the wisdom of isolation. There is strength in numbers. If our older and traditional churches are broken, shouldn't we try to fix them rather than abandon them? Because, what I am reading about this "Emerging church" that there are countless splinter groups with varying credos.It would be impossible to know what each group believes or presents. Unless you were a part of each and every group. There is also the huge task of world wide missionaries. These organizations need to be...well organized. Larger denominational groups of like minded Christians. With Christ led goals putting the whole body of their group into the cost and management of doing the work of Christ. For the spreading of the gospel, feeding the hungry clothing the poor. It's done daily by "labled" organizations. A great deal of the New Testament is spent in outlining the way to organize "churches" Should we just ignore those books and chapters? And invent our own way of doing church? I am going to read further into this movement. To see if it is a returning to our first love, or just plain rebellion. Thank you Mart, the information you provided about Wikipedia helped me a lot..

There is a great deal of information about this “movement” to digest.

No one should argue with the point you make whereas ” the validity of a church is not to be found in a label, but in whether a church is seeking to align itself in both beliefs and attitudes with the wisdom of the Bible and the person of Christ.”

Here in my neck of the woods, there are many and have always been. “break away” “churches. People who for various reasons just aren’t happy with the “labeled” congregations they were attending.

Though the number of people who attend them are very small. I find for the most part that in the basic principals they believe just like you and I. However they don’t last too long.

I wonder though, how many organizers of such congregations break away from their old church because of pride? Some I know just think they are smarter and a better preacher. They resist falling under the authority of a Pastor.

I also wonder about the wisdom of isolation. There is strength in numbers. If our older and traditional churches are broken, shouldn’t we try to fix them rather than abandon them?

Because, what I am reading about this “Emerging church” that there are countless splinter groups with varying credos.It would be impossible to know what each group believes or presents. Unless you were a part of each and every group.

There is also the huge task of world wide missionaries. These organizations need to be…well organized. Larger denominational groups of like minded Christians. With Christ led goals putting the whole body of their group into the cost and management of doing the work of Christ. For the spreading of the gospel, feeding the hungry clothing the poor. It’s done daily by “labled” organizations.

A great deal of the New Testament is spent in outlining the way to organize “churches” Should we just ignore those books and chapters? And invent our own way of doing church?

I am going to read further into this movement. To see if it is a returning to our first love, or just plain rebellion.

]]> By: Mart De Haan http://www.beenthinking.org/2008/11/02/this-election-and-emerging-churches/#comment-3204 Mart De Haan Mon, 03 Nov 2008 19:31:53 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=2008#comment-3204 SFDBWV, Seems to me that the seven letters of Revelation were first of all letters to real churches with messages to be taken to heart by individuals within the churches (i.e. the repeated "he that has an ear to hear, let him hear") At the same time I have been impressed with the correlation between these seven churches and periods of church history. But haven't done much with that since I've chosen to focus on the personal and practical implications of the messages themselves. As for emerging churches, there is no formal organization. But the movement is made up of many younger congregations who are trying to shed tradition and routine and to discover what it means to follow and represent Jesus in today's world. An article in Wikipedia.com on "emerging churches" shows the breadth of the movement. One point I've been trying to make in several posts is that the validity of a church is not to be found in a lable, but in whether a church is seeking to align itself in both beliefs and attitudes with the wisdom of the Bible and the person of Christ. SFDBWV, Seems to me that the seven letters of Revelation were first of all letters to real churches with messages to be taken to heart by individuals within the churches (i.e. the repeated “he that has an ear to hear, let him hear”)

At the same time I have been impressed with the correlation between these seven churches and periods of church history. But haven’t done much with that since I’ve chosen to focus on the personal and practical implications of the messages themselves.

As for emerging churches, there is no formal organization. But the movement is made up of many younger congregations who are trying to shed tradition and routine and to discover what it means to follow and represent Jesus in today’s world. An article in Wikipedia.com on “emerging churches” shows the breadth of the movement.

One point I’ve been trying to make in several posts is that the validity of a church is not to be found in a lable, but in whether a church is seeking to align itself in both beliefs and attitudes with the wisdom of the Bible and the person of Christ.

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