And I like your summary. Very clear.

I found this post through the Gospel.com blog (of which our ministry is also an alliance member). But I never thought they’d highlight a discussion like this one!

This past summer I posted up several posts on the “mystery of submission” which goes through Eph 5. It’s been a journey arriving at my present conclusions (which will likely change again tomorrow!). Those posts are in the august archives at http://www.dalefincher.com.

Thanks for your work!

Which comes first: his confidence or her flourishing?

I say she flourishes BECAUSE she has chosen a Godly husband who has blessed her with freedom to flourish.
He doesn’t keep her under his thumb,
he doesn’t micromanage and control her,
he doesn’t second guess her initiative, financial decisions, competence.
He doesn’t assert authority over her.
He VALUES her, cherishes her, nourishes her, trusts her.
He has FULL CONFIDENCE in her! :)
—–> He lacks nothing of value :)

Would anyone like to extoll the blessings of their spouse?

I have had many conversations with God about my own, however, most times he reminds me of my own short comings. When all is said and done, I am truly blessed to have a Prov. 31 wife. I wish I were more Christ-like in my attention to her.

A question to each of us. When was the last time we ‘publicly’ praised our spouse?

You would be surprized how much it may change quietly your own perspective of how much you have to be thankful?

The only Head any of us needs is Christ that taught us how to love and that is the some total of all anyone needs because in the end it is the only thing that lasts because it is the greatest thing there is.

I believe we still live under the curse even though Christ has redeemed us (who trust Him). We will not have the ideal again until Christ returns for us, and until then, I believe Paul has given us detailed information about how we should live both in man/woman relationship and leadership in the church.

Yes, I and all men fall far short of the ideal, but if living by the Spirit, we can make progress in loving our wives as Christ loved the church, and gave Himself for it. Wives can submit (not be doormats) to their husbands in a happty fulfilled way and I think that imperfectly, we return to a bit of the ideal of Genesis 2 where man and woman are complementing each other. And if we humbly love and cherish each other, looking out for the interests of each other, I believe all of us can experience greater happiness and fullfillment.

Correction: In Genesis 3, God never pronounces CURSES upon the woman or the man. The only CURSES God pronounces are upon the serpent and the ground. A small detail but not trivial. Realizing this changed my whole perspective on God’s character. (God is not like an abusive earthly father…)

Mart referred to “the prediction (not prescription) of the curse”. I would substitute “consequence” for “curse” but I agree that the consequences are predictive, not prescriptive. IOW, it is not wrong for men to use labor saving devices which save on sweat, for women to have anesthesia during childbirth to alleviate pain, or for married couples to be equal partners.

Didn’t Jesus come to restore what was lost by Adam and Eve’s decision? What does John mean when he says “The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.” (1 Jn 3:8)?

First I quote Genesis 3:16 “Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”

There are three curses here. First, woman’s sorrow will be greatly multiplied. Second,childbirth will be painful. Third, her husband shall rule over her.

This is at the very begining of our Bible. Nowhere have I found that God changed his mind and lifted the curse he put upon woman. Or man.

Secondly I quote 1 Corinthians 11:3 “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.”

I go now to Noah. God called Noah to the task of saving his family, along with all the animals. It was Noah’s responsibility to obey God and save all the members of his family. Noah exacted authority over his house and all where saved.

Abraham, God called Abraham to leave his fathers house and go to a land God had in mind to give to him and all his decendants. Abraham’s obediance to God brought forth the nation of Israel. This would have been quite a task without Sarah his wife. And when Sarah tried to interfere, Ishmael was the result. Abraham was the master of his “house” his “domain” all that he owned and was responsible for. Abraham had authority over his “house”.

Joshua 24:15, :” but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua was the master of his house and spoke with “authority” concerning it.

All throughout the Bible men have been the master of their domain. If I am to be the master of what I am responsible for then I have authority over it.

Please don’t misunderstand me. In the home only Love should govern our attitude. If we are following the instruction given us concerning loving our wives enough to die for them. Then balance and harmony, not strife and anger, will prevail.

How we pick the right mate? That is for another topic.

Thank you to everyone who has added their comments – I am SO glad to see that there is so much agreement on the most important element of love and surrender – and it BEGINS with our relationship to God. If we are truly surrendered to Him, then I believe that the proper love and surrender will be an outflow into our other human relationships.

I am a single woman – and I long to be married, but in this time of waiting for God to show me the man He has for me, I am learning about the precious and wonderful intimacy I can have with my Lord.