Comments on: Marital Submission and the Bible http://www.beenthinking.org/2009/03/14/submission-and-the-bible/ with Mart De Haan and Friends Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:21:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Waneta Dawn http://www.beenthinking.org/2009/03/14/submission-and-the-bible/#comment-11161 Waneta Dawn Sat, 28 Nov 2009 03:11:31 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=4513#comment-11161 I really appreciate this discussion. Too often Christians think they already have all the answers and don't stop to examine an issue again. Jocelyn Andersen's study, called "1 Corinthians 11:3 HEADSHIP OR LORDSHIP?" sheds light on the subject. Here are some quotes from this study: "As Christians, Christ is both our Head and our Lord, but his Headship is not to be confused with his Lordship... It is common to hear the word “headship” used in regards to the relationship between men and women and most especially between husbands and wives, but to use the term headship synonymously with lordship in regards to any human relationship is heresy and blasphemy. Every Christian has only one Lord and that is the Lord Jesus Christ from whom the whole body originates and is jointly fit together and nourished.... Careful study reveals that the Headship of Christ has more to do with origins and the construction of his Body—the Church—as a whole, while the Lordship of Christ has more to do with his leadership and guidance of believers individually... In addition to being an immutable fact, The Headship of Christ is also an ongoing, active process of salvation and the building of his Church. No human, therefore, can claim “headship.” Being called “the head” is not the same as “headship.” According to Jocelyn's work, the whole problem in Christian circles is that we have equated the word "head" with "lord." Once we separate the two qualities that Christ has, and stop making the husband as head, mean "lord," the whole passage makes sense. If the husband is head because Adam came first, and he is to love his wife self-sacrificially as Christ did, we never get to thinking in terms of a husband's right to rule his wife. The only way that came into scripture at all, was in giving the word "head" the meaning of "authority." I really appreciate this discussion. Too often Christians think they already have all the answers and don’t stop to examine an issue again.

Jocelyn Andersen’s study, called “1 Corinthians 11:3 HEADSHIP OR LORDSHIP?” sheds light on the subject.
Here are some quotes from this study:

“As Christians, Christ is both our Head and our Lord, but his Headship is not to be confused with his Lordship…

It is common to hear the word “headship” used in regards to the relationship between men and women and most especially between husbands and wives, but to use the term headship synonymously with lordship in regards to any human relationship is heresy and blasphemy. Every Christian has only one Lord and that is the Lord Jesus Christ from whom the whole body originates and is jointly fit together and nourished….

Careful study reveals that the Headship of Christ has more to do with origins and the construction of his Body—the Church—as a whole, while the Lordship of Christ has more to do with his leadership and guidance of believers individually…

In addition to being an immutable fact, The Headship of Christ is also an ongoing, active process of salvation and the building of his Church. No human, therefore, can claim “headship.” Being called “the head” is not the same as “headship.”

According to Jocelyn’s work, the whole problem in Christian circles is that we have equated the word “head” with “lord.” Once we separate the two qualities that Christ has, and stop making the husband as head, mean “lord,” the whole passage makes sense.

If the husband is head because Adam came first, and he is to love his wife self-sacrificially as Christ did, we never get to thinking in terms of a husband’s right to rule his wife. The only way that came into scripture at all, was in giving the word “head” the meaning of “authority.”

]]> By: foreverblessed http://www.beenthinking.org/2009/03/14/submission-and-the-bible/#comment-9024 foreverblessed Sat, 25 Jul 2009 15:12:52 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=4513#comment-9024 Yes, thanks too, so did I, and I am still thinking about these things, because here on earth things might seem unfair. But in heaven things are totally fair. And maybe it would be better if these things were stressed: Matthew 20:25-28 25Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." So, we women should go on doing these things, not out of fear for the husband, but out of reverence and love for Christ, and then for the husband, and for mankind Because in heaven they, who were willing to help others, will not be last, as will many men, who on earth demanded their way around. They will have to be last, and learn a little about being humble, being of help to others. Because in heaven are only those who are absolutely and joyfully there to help others. Love you too. Petra Yes, thanks too, so did I, and I am still thinking about these things, because here on earth things might seem unfair.
But in heaven things are totally fair. And maybe it would be better if these things were stressed:
Matthew 20:25-28
25Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

So, we women should go on doing these things, not out of fear for the husband, but out of reverence and love for Christ, and then for the husband, and for mankind

Because in heaven they, who were willing to help others, will not be last, as will many men, who on earth demanded their way around. They will have to be last, and learn a little about being humble, being of help to others. Because in heaven are only those who are absolutely and joyfully there to help others.

Love you too.
Petra

]]> By: poohpity http://www.beenthinking.org/2009/03/14/submission-and-the-bible/#comment-9018 poohpity Sat, 25 Jul 2009 00:05:42 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=4513#comment-9018 A man submitting to Christ is the point too. I feel that our churches are mostly run by the males and so it is that point that really needs to be addressed and if I know our Lord it will be one way or another. I really do not look forward to how God will take care of it but it will be taken care of. We can trust our care to the one that we (both genders) were created in the image of. Love you and enjoyed the conversation. Deb A man submitting to Christ is the point too. I feel that our churches are mostly run by the males and so it is that point that really needs to be addressed and if I know our Lord it will be one way or another. I really do not look forward to how God will take care of it but it will be taken care of. We can trust our care to the one that we (both genders) were created in the image of. Love you and enjoyed the conversation. Deb

]]> By: foreverblessed http://www.beenthinking.org/2009/03/14/submission-and-the-bible/#comment-9013 foreverblessed Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:50:15 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=4513#comment-9013 So then you mean to say, talking about the woman submitting is not a good topic to talk about at all. I personally think that the topic should start with the man being admonished to love his wife as Christ did the church. Ephesians 5:25-30. What the man is being told to do means that he has to be submittive even to the opoint of death for the faults of his wife. (As I am writing this I feel that this is too much stretched out.) But the point is, how come that in all these church years this point of the man is under valued, and the point of submitting of the wife is overvalued. Because if we realy read what the man is admaonished to do, it is staggering. Too much for the mind to begin to even start doing it on your own. He must be absolutely attached to Christ with all of his being to be able to do this. But why is this point so understressed? So then you mean to say, talking about the woman submitting is not a good topic to talk about at all.
I personally think that the topic should start with the man being admonished to love his wife as Christ did the church. Ephesians 5:25-30. What the man is being told to do means that he has to be submittive even to the opoint of death for the faults of his wife. (As I am writing this I feel that this is too much stretched out.)
But the point is, how come that in all these church years this point of the man is under valued, and the point of submitting of the wife is overvalued.
Because if we realy read what the man is admaonished to do, it is staggering. Too much for the mind to begin to even start doing it on your own. He must be absolutely attached to Christ with all of his being to be able to do this.
But why is this point so understressed?

]]> By: poohpity http://www.beenthinking.org/2009/03/14/submission-and-the-bible/#comment-9012 poohpity Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:13:31 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=4513#comment-9012 Many women do not feel they are in abusive situations they feel like this is what is referred to as submission in the bible. Emotional abuse is just as bad if not worse than the physical kind. Many women do not feel they are in abusive situations they feel like this is what is referred to as submission in the bible. Emotional abuse is just as bad if not worse than the physical kind.

]]> By: foreverblessed http://www.beenthinking.org/2009/03/14/submission-and-the-bible/#comment-9007 foreverblessed Fri, 24 Jul 2009 09:29:12 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=4513#comment-9007 Dear Pooh, OK, I see what you mean, I didn't know about your past in an abusive marriage. Sorry for you, hope that your eye has healed. So there should be a big sign at the beginning of a post on marital submission: This is not for those in Abusive Marriage situations! Dear Pooh, OK, I see what you mean, I didn’t know about your past in an abusive marriage. Sorry for you, hope that your eye has healed.

So there should be a big sign at the beginning of a post on marital submission:
This is not for those in Abusive Marriage situations!

]]> By: poohpity http://www.beenthinking.org/2009/03/14/submission-and-the-bible/#comment-9000 poohpity Thu, 23 Jul 2009 16:08:13 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=4513#comment-9000 foreverblessed, I hope I never say anything that will cause harm to another from what I say and rather than her responding to my post you did. It seems that you are assuming that because I am not married now that I have never been and in fact my first husband knocked my eye through my eye socket and I also counsel women who have lived through abuse. Yes it does cause me alarm to read something I feel is an abusive situation because women who do not understand how valuable they are will allow others to abuse them and that is not submission. Thank you for your input but because I have just suffered a loss does not mean my mind has stopped working. You are correct that we never know how God will work in a persons life but if it is not in line with His principles of loving God with all your heart, soul and mind and loving others as you LOVE YOURSELF than I feel concerned for the person. I apologize if anything I have said is in error but I can not assume what her situations is I can only go on what was said and I replied from my heart. foreverblessed,

I hope I never say anything that will cause harm to another from what I say and rather than her responding to my post you did. It seems that you are assuming that because I am not married now that I have never been and in fact my first husband knocked my eye through my eye socket and I also counsel women who have lived through abuse. Yes it does cause me alarm to read something I feel is an abusive situation because women who do not understand how valuable they are will allow others to abuse them and that is not submission. Thank you for your input but because I have just suffered a loss does not mean my mind has stopped working. You are correct that we never know how God will work in a persons life but if it is not in line with His principles of loving God with all your heart, soul and mind and loving others as you LOVE YOURSELF than I feel concerned for the person. I apologize if anything I have said is in error but I can not assume what her situations is I can only go on what was said and I replied from my heart.

]]> By: foreverblessed http://www.beenthinking.org/2009/03/14/submission-and-the-bible/#comment-8999 foreverblessed Thu, 23 Jul 2009 14:31:18 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=4513#comment-8999 Dear POOH, you are not on your own, you are here discussing this marital submission thing. And that really triggers you. I do love you very much, do not get too much upset about what I write. The woman L. did not, as you wrote: “If at any time we are made to do acts wanting to be accepted and loved that is not submission it is being a doormat. ” But she did it because God told her to do so. And she obeyed, and she was very much blessed. The man afcourse is totally wrong, but as she wrote, he is not a believer. God will deal with him later. And teach him what it is to be a loving husband. You are totally right that a man takes care of his wife as Christ did take care of the church. But he did not call the man first, instead, He called the woman first. Did Jeus learn submission, yes He did, there are several scriptures about it. (Hebrews 5:8, obedience and submission are related.) Christ came to die for us, out of love for us. But it was done in obedience. He was submissive to what God wanted. Jesus begged for the cup to be taken away from him. But is wasn't. And He in so doing was submissive. He did not argue further, “Is there no other way in which all the sins can be forgiven?” If in a marriage only one partner is a Christian, that person will encounter that Gods ways are up side down, and yet be blessed for following God. But never submit out of fear of not being loved. You first must absolutely know that God in Christ loves you. That you are accepted. And deeply loved. You are not married, you have a choice in testing the husband to be wheather he is a loving leader, and submitted to Christ. But this woman is married to an unbelieving husband, and so she cannot do that testing anymore. Instead she walks with God, He is her number one, and she follows His lead. So this is not the ideal situation, she is telling her story, married to an unbeliever. And that will not at all be your ideal marriage situation. Never thought that God would wake us up to do the dishes at night. But I think that God does these things to disipilne us. And that is totally different from doing it out of fear for the husband, because he demanded it. So POOH, relax, keep trusting God, He is not telling you do to the dishes at night, He probably tells you to relax. Have a lot of rest, after this long hard period you have had with your mother. With much love. By ties of love Jesus gets us closer to Himself Dear POOH, you are not on your own, you are here discussing this marital submission thing.
And that really triggers you. I do love you very much, do not get too much upset about what I write.
The woman L. did not, as you wrote: “If at any time we are made to do acts wanting to be accepted and loved that is not submission it is being a doormat. ” But she did it because God told her to do so. And she obeyed, and she was very much blessed.
The man afcourse is totally wrong, but as she wrote, he is not a believer. God will deal with him later. And teach him what it is to be a loving husband. You are totally right that a man takes care of his wife as Christ did take care of the church.
But he did not call the man first, instead, He called the woman first.
Did Jeus learn submission, yes He did, there are several scriptures about it. (Hebrews 5:8, obedience and submission are related.)

Christ came to die for us, out of love for us. But it was done in obedience. He was submissive to what God wanted. Jesus begged for the cup to be taken away from him. But is wasn’t. And He in so doing was submissive. He did not argue further, “Is there no other way in which all the sins can be forgiven?”

If in a marriage only one partner is a Christian, that person will encounter that Gods ways are up side down, and yet be blessed for following God.

But never submit out of fear of not being loved.
You first must absolutely know that God in Christ loves you. That you are accepted. And deeply loved.

You are not married, you have a choice in testing the husband to be wheather he is a loving leader, and submitted to Christ.
But this woman is married to an unbelieving husband, and so she cannot do that testing anymore. Instead she walks with God, He is her number one, and she follows His lead.

So this is not the ideal situation, she is telling her story, married to an unbeliever. And that will not at all be your ideal marriage situation.
Never thought that God would wake us up to do the dishes at night. But I think that God does these things to disipilne us. And that is totally different from doing it out of fear for the husband, because he demanded it.
So POOH, relax, keep trusting God, He is not telling you do to the dishes at night, He probably tells you to relax. Have a lot of rest, after this long hard period you have had with your mother.
With much love. By ties of love Jesus gets us closer to Himself

]]> By: poohpity http://www.beenthinking.org/2009/03/14/submission-and-the-bible/#comment-8997 poohpity Thu, 23 Jul 2009 12:52:38 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=4513#comment-8997 If that husband was caring for his wife as Christ cared for the Church then he would have done the dishes if that is what he wanted done not to deprive his wife of the sleep she needed to do one of the hardest jobs in the world of being a wife and mother. Love is seeking the highest GOOD of the one loved not treating people like dirt. If that husband was caring for his wife as Christ cared for the Church then he would have done the dishes if that is what he wanted done not to deprive his wife of the sleep she needed to do one of the hardest jobs in the world of being a wife and mother. Love is seeking the highest GOOD of the one loved not treating people like dirt.

]]> By: poohpity http://www.beenthinking.org/2009/03/14/submission-and-the-bible/#comment-8995 poohpity Thu, 23 Jul 2009 12:22:43 +0000 http://www.beenthinking.org/?p=4513#comment-8995 Is submission a Christian fruit? Or is Gal 5:22-24; 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Submission is trusting in the leading of another. If at any time we are made to do acts wanting to be accepted and loved that is not submission it is being a doormat. If we trust someone to lead us they must first show that they can be trusted with that responsibility, to endure mental or emotional cruelty is not something I would want to submit to. Christ died on the Cross for discipline or to show us the extent of His love? Is submission a Christian fruit? Or is Gal 5:22-24; 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Submission is trusting in the leading of another. If at any time we are made to do acts wanting to be accepted and loved that is not submission it is being a doormat. If we trust someone to lead us they must first show that they can be trusted with that responsibility, to endure mental or emotional cruelty is not something I would want to submit to. Christ died on the Cross for discipline or to show us the extent of His love?

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