In this passage(2Cr 12:7) we see that God used a messenger(unholy angel) of satan to keep striking Paul with blow after blow, and it was for a purpose. Because Christ was going to manifest himself to Paul in a great way, and to keep Paul away from pride, the manifestations from satan’s messenger(unholy angel) caused him a lot of sufferrings…2Cr 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

You said: Can you also say with all of your heart: I hold to the tesimony of Jesus? Rev 19:10 I do not mean that you can break the 10 C, we cannot go on sinning after we have received Christ as Lord…Just by sinning through our thoughts we break God’s 10 C, and there is willful sin too, that after we have known the truth about God’s 10 C and keep breaking them will not go well with us.

You said: But what is the guideline in our new life: Gal 5:22-25…But according to God’s word we must live in God’s law through Christ Jesus who gives us the strength to keep it and not break it…Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

You said: If we live in Christ He is our Sabbath, we are always in Him, and never out of the Sabbath, and so we have fulfilled the law of the Sabbath…The “rest” you are referring to, is not that we fulfill it, but it is given to us freely by faith in Christ…Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.

You said: Days are things of this world. But Christ is the reality. Colossians 2:17…Days are that God created for mankind and only One day stands out among the rest. And that is the Sabbath day, which day, God only gave a name. The rest of the six days, God did not give them a name. Those who observe the biblical seventh-day Sabbath demonstrate their love for Jesus by obeying His commandments. Knowing about the sanctity and purpose of the Sabbath is vital because it concerns the basic concepts of time, life and relationships…Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD…Isa 56:2 Blessed [is] the man [that] doeth this, and the son of man [that] layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil…Well think about this? we can do good on the Sabbath day, it is what Jesus said: Mat 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had [his] hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift [it] out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

It is a picture graph of man and God’s interaction and plans. A time table of events from beginning to end.

In it he shows two “places” where the departed soul goes after death. One is Paradise the other a place of torment. This is explained by Jesus when he speaks of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:20. When Jesus was with the thief on the cross He spoke to the thief and said today you will be with me in Paradise. Not heaven.

So in studying the matter, it would seem that Hagee may be right. These places of existance are where the soul goes awaiting the Judgement, where one is either resurected from into everlasting life or resurected after the millenium to be sent into the lake of fire with satan.

All in God’s time line of events.

Rick123, Your experiances with dreams and visions have had quite their effect on you. How long have you been tormented by demons?
In 1 Samuel 16:14 God sends an evil spirit to torment Saul. Saul never repents nor asks God for forgiveness but continualy fights against God’s plans. Unto his death.
God sent the evil spirit, God can take it away. Ask Him Rick, if you need to I will pray with you also that God remove this torment from you.

This is getting way out of thread. But I had to say something.
Test the spirits, 1 John 4:1-4.

Satan even uses people to come against me, in my family they say I am dead, because I don’t have a worldly life like them, this cousin of mine even said that I was living but that I was dead in life. I have notice that when family members come against me very wickedly, bad things happen to them. Even among Christians, when some of them come against me, God brings conviction in their heart.

One thing I don’t do against God, is, I don’t complain against him, by saying, O God, why have you brought all of this evil against me?

I just trust in him, and that he is being God the Almighty One, who knows what he is doing.

At first when all of this started, I cried like a baby, and begged God to get all of this out of my life. But now I know that all of this things have made me more strong in the Lord Jesus, and I thank God that he gave me all of these things in my life, because I have learned to be dead to sin.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death…17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ…And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:(Rev 6:9)
(I know that satan is angry with them that have the testimony of Jesus’s righteousness which is expressed from his Father’s Ten Commandments. For they will always be biding, for God the Father does not change, satan and man mighty change it but not the Father.

Satan brought this lawless rebellion to Adam, and they(he/her) fell just like the angels that satan deceived, so satan’s greatest weapon is to lie about God’s truth. When God allows satan to rule the whole world through the man of sin-he will demand to be worshiped on his day, which will not be the Sabbath day. It will be the man made law of satan against the law of heaven, the ones who accept the man made law of satan will go into the lake of fire, and the ones who accept the law of heaven will go to heaven.

In the beginning when satan rebelled and sinned against God his Father, he broke all of the Father’s Ten Commandments. He teaches mankind to do the same, to twist and change God’s Ten Commandments.(Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:)

Unlike the baptismal tank of today, in the early Church baptism was an open ceremony done in public places. It was literally a public proclamation of embracing Christ. It meant serious consequences and I happen to be familiar with this also… because post-Baptism people were marked out for death by the persecuting pagan majority.

This however, did not stop conversions of souls, who eagerly accepted Christ and got baptized to carry on the work of Christ left behind by the dead believers. In 1 Cor 15 Paul is addressing a false teaching that questioned physical resurrection.

Paul is saying emphatically that dead Christians will rise up again physically… “Otherwise what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?”

In other words… what is the hope for others who are getting baptized to replace the dead (saints)? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are others getting baptized to take the place of dead members in the Church…knowing fully well the danger (v30) that is associated with baptism? And so, in v31 Paul continues to boast in Christ “I die daily” and the death of fellow Christians did not stop him from publicly proclaiming Christ.

Bottom line: Because of the hope of resurrection, nothing stopped others back then from getting baptized in order to carry the torch of Christ, on behalf of those who died for that cause.

The lesson for all of us today is: Even in death the show must go on… i.e. as MDH stated above “to show the life of God in a world that will continue to grieve losses”. Just my thoughts…

I have often wondered why the catholics pray for the dead? I have ask this question of some catholic officials and they all believe that you can.

The only place in scripture I have found that has any reference to it is found in 1 Cor 15:29 “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead not rise at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”

James Kelly must answer for himself in what he means.

We are made in God’s immage, and like Him we can also create. We can’t create something out of nothing as did He. But we have creative power and often being creative is the only thing we do that has real saticfaction.

If I form and idea in my mind then are able to create that idea into a solid this world reality. Then I have created something. Albeit a painting, a sculpture, even a house or a piece of furniture. It starts with an idea and more often then not becomes something we say we are going to do. Speak your beliefs, Jesus says we must “say” unto this mountain, be thou removed and cast into the sea. If you believe, it will be done.

Don’t be offended Laney, please. It is just that I believe what we say does have creative power.

The eternal consequence of the formentioned celebrities are in the hand of God. As are the spirits of all my forefathers and loved ones that have gone on before me.

I am so glad that God is their judge and knows their hearts and life stories as to why they were the way they were, and weither their names are found in the book of life or not.

I also agree… that The Ark of the Covenant was a replica of the one that always existed in Heaven… it also foreshadowed the new covenant that was established in Jesus Christ. In fact, His High-Priestly ministry involves the real one in Heaven which is not made with hands.

The Ark of the Covenant made by Moses was only meant for ancient Israel and does not hold any significance for present day Israel. According to the prophets, after its loss and destruction it will not be required to remake the Ark (Jer 3:16) because the Law of the Lord will be written in their hearts, and there will be no need to keep it in the Ark.

Therefore, today Israel is not concerned about looking for the lost Ark… but is eagerly looking forward to the day when the temple at Jerusalem will be filled with the glorious presence of the Messiah Himself… who will fight and win the final war to ultimately restore Israel to her land.

What about us, the mysterious body of Jews and Gentiles, His bride— the Church? For ancient Israel, the Ark of the Covenant represented a living, personal presence of God—His beauty, strength and glory. It was a place that was meant for God to rest and dwell among His people.

Today, each one of us is the dwelling place of God. In the OT, the Ark of the Covenant was linked to both death and life. Today, because of Christ living in us we are both a sweet aroma of life… and a staggering stench of death to others living around us.

…And we also do not search for the lost man-made Ark because in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet, when death will be swallowed up in victory…we will be literally translated into the presence of the real one… the one that Jesus approached …that Heavenly one which is not made with hands.

Let us then be constantly delivered over to death of “self” for Jesus’ sake so that all of us who have had that veil removed can recognize that God is a living, personal presence…a living Spirit …And so we are transfigured much like the Messiah, our lives gradually becoming brighter and more beautiful as God enters our lives and we become like Him.(2 Cor 3:18 The Msg)!