Archive Calendar
-
Sit down with me as we think through some tough topics in a reflective way and examine some of the difficult issues that can trouble followers of Christ. My hope is that you’ll always come away with more to think about… RBC Ministries
Twitter
Good Conversation
Posted by Mart De Haan
October 10th, 2009
Filed in Relationships
130 Comments »
My thoughts this morning have been all over the place.
I begin the day impressed by Jesus’ prayer that his people would be “one” so that the world would know that the Father has sent him (John 17:21).
Moving to the morning news, I begin to think about so many good opportunities to talk about the kind of issues that are better understood after a good healthy conversation.
For example, Washington’s move to expand hate crime legislation gives us a chance to compare thoughts on how we relate to a world that is so divided on issues that we know are important. Subjects like this give us such a chance to think about the practical implications of our own faith, and what others must think as they see social conservatives leading the fight against hate crime legislation.
Then I read in the Jerusalem Post about an Iranian spokesperson’s threat to blow up the heart of Israel if either Israel or the Unites States attacks first. While knowing what the Bible says about about Israel and the nations at the end of the age (i.e. Zechariah 12:10: 14:2-16), I wonder whether we are still able to put ourselves in Iran’s spot, remembering how the US and Russia held one another at bay through the cold war by deterrents of mutually assured destruction. I wonder whether we can be human enough to see our own behaviors mirrored in the heart of “an enemy”…
I remember with such pleasure how good and healthy it is whenever we compare notes on such issues, putting ourselves in the shoes of others, and remembering our Lord’s prayer that his people would be “one” so that the world would know that the Father had sent him.
Am sure that “being one” doesn’t mean seeing everything the same way, but rather reflecting and even enjoying a chance to help one another think through our differences with mutual love and respect… here, at church, at home, on the job… or wherever we find ourselves today.
And the dog? Am just realizing how much easier it is sometimes to identify with her, wonder what she’s thinking… and to care…
You don't need to register to leave a "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" on this post:
(+135 rating, 145 votes)
Loading ...
I think Colossians 2 addresses this issue so well. Religiosity tends to break us apart but true faith in the grace of Christ is what brings us together. It is that truth that takes us from what we do to who we believe in.
My son is at a Christian college and man do we get into some tough discussions. I am continually trying to get him to read the bible everyday before he gets his head filled with knowledge from the professors. He gets so angry with me. He says, “is that all you talk about?”. I tell him it is the foundation and it is what God has given us as a revelation of who He is and how He does things. I tend to forget that it was the Holy Spirit that put the desire in me to read it. Again I put myself into the position of trying to be God’s helper and push my son away. When I choose to back off and let God do what He does best the relationship is so much better.
My son said at the last talk, “OK mom together we have the same foundation that is in Christ Jesus so let’s hold on to our common ground and let go of the theological differences”. Gee, I told him I learn so much from him and am so proud. The common spiritual equation in us all is Christs redemptive work on the Cross which is forgiveness, mercy and grace which there is no argument. If we then show that to others oh my gosh the oneness would be amazing.
Mart:
Are we talking here about the same legislation that would create a new class of crimes based on the victim’s “actual or perceived sexual orientation or gender identity.” (see Focus on the Family Website)
Under “hate-crimes” laws like this one, (which had to be attached to the Defense funding bill to get past the House), pastors could be prosecuted for preaching the biblical view of homosexuality. Similar laws have been used to prosecute religious speech in the U.S. at the state level and abroad.
“The homosexual activists’ mantra is no longer tolerance — it’s embrace and promote,” said Ashley Horne, federal policy analyst at Focus on the Family Action. “Anything less will be silenced. Christians must speak up.”
I have to be verrrry cautious about supporting something that ’sounds so promising’ but in reality poses a much bigger threat to all.
Why not talk about the latest ‘Gee Whiz’ about our president being awarded a Nobel Peace Prize!!! Have you seen anything that justifies such action for this man?
I am especially irritated this morning…did not rest well last night…perhaps I am troubled by all the corruption and deception I am recognizing in the world. It amazes me that people (christians,too) can be so easily deceived.
Guess I need the Huggs this day.
frank
Pooh:
Mind if I ask which ‘christian’ college your son attends?
First I want to send hugs and love. I understand all that is causing your soul to be distressed and you are right we need to take a stand but in a way that we still cling to our faith. Tolerance I personally do not believe in however acceptance of the person I do, whether that is semantics or not. ODB put it this way today, “It’s better to declare the truth and be rejected than to withhold the truth just to be accepted”. There are ways to stand up for what we believe that cause people to be drawn to us and then there are ways that push folks away from the forgiveness and love we ourselves have been shown.
I have to return to the fact that the person without sin cast the first stone. This is why approaching these issues has to be done in a loving manor just as Christ Himself did.
My son’s first Christian college was Ozark in Missouri. Boy when he went to that one the legalism just poured out of him. The last two years he has been at Grand Canyon University. I see the head knowledge without the heart. That is why I commented before about children being raised in a Christian home do not seem to realize that we all stand as sinners before the Cross none any better than anyone else. I am quicker to realize the forgiveness I have been shown than he sees. He is growing and that is what makes a difference to me not that he is there already but that he continues to grow.
I heard a pastor once say that we need to look at ourselves and see whether we are the same as we were a year ago or have we grown. If there is no growth then there is a problem somewhere. You know like two steps forward and one step back we are still growing. This walk with the Lord is a continual process of growth but it is growth, some learn faster than others but we are all growing. Sometimes we need to do a little more stepping out in faith so we do not become stagnant.
Came across this today – just might relate to this writing.
Children of God
“The Christian gospel declares that people are of inestimable value because they are the children of God, the concern of his love, created for an eternal destiny; not just people in general, but individual men, women and children, each with a name, each having priceless worth. This was made startlingly plain by Jesus when he told his disciples ‘the very hairs of your head are all numbered’: an extravagant piece of imagery to drive home what he was saying. When we take his words seriously, we begin to realize how far-reaching their significance is. If they are true, if that is how things really are, if God really does care for every single man, woman and child in the teeming millions that inhabit the globe, not to speak of the countless generations of the past and those as yet unborn, we cannot dismiss anyone as of no consequence; nor are we entitled to suppose that some are more important than others or that any should be sacrificed to serve some interest which takes precedence over their inherent worth. The consequences of accepting this basic presupposition are shattering, calling in question not only the way in which we commonly behave towards many of our fellow human beings, but the international, military, political, economic and social policies which have been and still are considered reasonable by those who are responsible for them
To wretch-like-me: I will pray tonight that your hate will turn to love. By your own post I can see that you need to re-read the love chapter in the Bible. Anyone with as much hate as you have for our President or any one else, needs prayer.
Mart-Once again the “social conservatives” (include me in that) are taking a stand…not to advocate it’s okay to hate, but to resist the Obama-homosexual agenda…as wretch-like-me mentioned-the gay community is intolerent of the Christian view of homosexuality. pooh, I can see you steaming already…but hate the sin and love the sinner! Before you pound away at me..let me remind you that every single person regardless of sexual orientation or the worst of sinners, is important in God’s sight! wretch mentioned Obama receiving the Nobel Peace Prize…even his own party is saying “for what”? It is actually determined by the Norwegien parliment which is trying to influence American foreign policy (leftist group).
Jing,
I am not one to steam, I just get frustrated at the opinion of those who consider themselves Christians who have a lot of head knowledge and negate the heart of the Gospel. Or see the sin in others so clearly but yet never look within.
Dixie,
That was beautiful.
Goldilocks,
Jumping to conclusions with out knowing a person brings that saying old saying to mind when you point a finger at someone, one has three pointing back at themselves. I am also unsure of the reason for President Obama getting the Noble Peace Prize but there is no hate at all involved, just curiosity.
For instance, do a lot of us not speak up and test our ideas through conversation because of group pressure? Would we feel that way if the group didn’t move quickly to “censure” those who are thinking outside of the group’s box.
How did Jesus handle “group think”?
Frank, yes we are talking about the same thing :-)… Seems to me that lining up against hate-speech legislation to protect ourselves– at the expense of our reputation– seems so unbecoming to the gospel. Could be wrong… but that’s the way I’m seeing it.
And on your comment about our President getting the Nobel Peace prize, also seems to me that someone who changes the tone of international discourse– even as he enters office… shows respect for those who have previously felt disrespected– acknowledges national mistakes, shows concern for the poor– and urges enemies to listen to one another, while trying to be a president of all– has done something deserving of honorable mention.
My take is that I think we need to rise above the talking points of partisan politics…acknowledge that the Scriptures call on us to respect the office of our leaders even if we don’t agree with them.
My sense is that Paul and Christ honored Caesar (without dishonoring God). My concern is that too many of us have become pawns of political parties at the expense “kingdom issues”.
I don’t know that I’m right. But want so much to see the world through the window of the Scriptures, and the grace of our Lord.
And yes, I have heard so often that because we are a government of the people that we have a right to be known for our moral convictions. While am convinced we need to have a compassionate prophetic “voice” about behaviors that we believe will harm others– don’t agree that being members of a democracy trumps (overrules) our priorities as citizens of the kingdom of God. Of that Kingdom Paul writes, “Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity” (2Tim 2:19).
Amen and Amen!! I am weeping. How will we ever be one when we are so quick to judge, criticize and condemn in one breathe and praise God with another breathe. I am also quick in those areas and this lesson will be a hard one to learn to the alienation of our brothers/sisters and to future believers.
I’m torn by what kind of responce I would like to give to this post and lively comments.(Wish I had spell check on this) We believers are the body of Christ. How we deal with issues in the Church as expressed in the writings of Paul,(some things were to be dealt with harshly and quickly but always in love)should be the same with social issues outside the Church. I hope that made sense.
There are so many issues of American life that Pres. Obama wants to change. Health care is a big issue with me. There may be a lot of things to fix there but at what cost? Redistribution of wealth? If world history is your thing what comes to mind there? Think Russia. And last but not least Iran. That should be a matter of urgent prayer for every believer.
I don’t have any clear cut answers to any of these issues, just opinions. My opinion is this, “Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus, come.”
Tony
Tony, thanks for expressing your concern. The truth is that we have different opinions about how to apply the Scriptures to our day. And we need to get both side out on the table in a way that allows us to think about them in light of the Scriptures and the Spirit of our salvation and LORD.
On Hate Crime.
While I can see the problems with this type of legislation, we have had similar in Britain for sometime.
It was made law because we have a multi racial and ethnic population and there was a backlash againts the Muslims after 11th September 2001 and the attacks in London later.
It is also there to protect people with different sexual orientations.
As a Gay Christian who is loved by Jesus, I often come up against so called hate in the church. It seems we spend too much time debating one or two lines of old testament scripture and miss the whole point of why Jesus came to save us. He actively pursued those who needed his love and openly critsised the established religeon. The Centurian who loved his servant, let us not forget the Roman and Greek culture here, was said by Jesus to have more faith than anyone in Israel. Jesus did not even mention his relationship with his servant, only his relationship to God.
Let us all keep in mind that we are to love one another as HE has loved us, that we may be one as Jesus and the Father are one.
Nothing like good moral living to bring out the ire of thoes who don’t.
Why should I or Frank or anyone of us, need to be made feel we are hate mongers, because we have a political opinion, or a belief in living in a moral society?
There are some sin which God has stated is an abomination to Him. Also there are things which God hates.
If I were like a straw in the wind that political spin doctors could manipulate with their special talent for twisting the facts or truth, then I would be guilty of having no opinion at all but being a wishy washy empty headed puppet. Led by the popular wind of the day.
Jesus Christ, never caved in on moral issues. He never said it was ok to sin.
A changed heart of a Christian soul should bring that person into alignment with God’s desires for us not to sin.
Because of the people who came before us, we enjoy many freedoms. The Christian leaders who came before us would never have tolerated such behavior nor condoned it.
It is not a secret that I do not like Obama. I respect the office he holds, but that does not make his behavior acceptable to me. His leadership of this nation is the road to ruin.
Last night I watched him address a gathering of Homosexuals, his political allies. He promised them he would work hard for their agenda.
A few years ago there was a hot political debate going on in California, concerning a law, which if passed , would have given people of an alternative sexual lifestyle the status of guaranteed civil rights. This would mean that a practicing homosexual pedophile could not be denied a job driving a school bus, because it would deny him his civil rights.
John the Baptist did not hesitate to point out the sins of office holders religious leaders as well as the setting King, Herod. Was John a hatemonger? What did Jesus say concerning John?
Satan is no fool, he knows very well how to use a perverted view of being a follower of Christ, to weaken and dilute the moral view of Christian living. And yes this is the time spoken of when mentioned in scripture, that there would be a time when people would be decieved into thinking they are doing the will of God, when in fact they are not.
Confused about how or whether to take a stand against sin? Remember that Satan is the father of confusion.
I just want to add one thing…
The hate laws were brought in also because a few Muslim clerics were preaching hate and religeous intolerance from their pulpits.
Are the Christians just as guilty?
And on the issue of Obama and the Noble Peace Prize.
The whole world breathed a sigh of relief when George W was replaced by this remarkable new president of yours.
He immediately put out his hands in love and friendship to all the enemies of the USA and offered to re-address all the hate that had come out Washington DC over the last eight years.
Although it seems a little premature, it is well deserved.
You have a good man there, he needs your support.
OK good. The issues are on the table.
Here are a couple of my questions. Does God consider the rejection of his Son a moral issue of the highest order? Would he consider rejection of his Son an “abomination” as he also regards, sins that include but are not limited to “a proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, a false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren” (Prov 6:16-19).
Since few of us would advocate making illegal the rejection of Christ, then haven’t we acknowledged that there are some things we can’t rightly control with laws?
Mart, you are so right.
The word “abomination” is used out of context to describe those sins that we are offended by. We forget that “All have sined and fallen short of the Glory of God” We forget that a lustfull thought or a little white lie are an “abomination” in God’s eyes. He is so Holy that he cannot even look at sin. God reached out as far as He could when He gave His only Son to take the punishment in our place.
And you are also right in the fact that there some things we cannot legislate for. In a better world there would be no need for so many crazy laws but unfortunatly human nature has become so bad that goverments need to set out the rules in plain english else we would have riots on our streets everyday.
As Yogi Berra said, “it’s de ja vu all over again”. It’s great that we all have different takes on these subjects because we can ALL learn from each other, but even in a Christ centered blog like this some seem to need to get a “shot” in regarding another’s comment. Then we “react” with an emotionally charged response & a “shot” of our own. Is it not possible for everyone to express their thoughts on the subject without showing anger towards another’s thoughts? Why are we so easily threatened when we perceive another has spoken out against what we think? Can’t we err on the side of giving each other the benefit of the doubt that we are not attacking each other & to try & not take it personally. How can we “be angry & sin not”. Being passionate about what we believe & think is important but once we have finished typing what we think we should go back over it & pour some love over it before we hit submit. I do love reading what you all express because I learn a lot from each of you but I cringe sometimes because of the manner in which we are sometimes harsh with each other. We are all guilty of it whether we want to admit it or not. Jesus was harsh with the Pharisees because they went around acting like they were better than most because they kept the law when in reality they only kept the parts of the law that, in their opinion, were important. They took pride in this & looked down on those who were not as “good” as they were. Just so you know if any of you feel I am pointing a finger at you with these comments I am emphatically pointing those other 3 back at myself. Frank, sending you a hug today, brother.
Mart you are exactly right, there is no need for the Federal Government to keep making unessesary laws.
States are a soverign entity; have a Governor, a legeslature to enact laws to protect it’s people and representation from it’s populus.
There are already laws against violence. Why does the federal government feel that there needs to be “special” laws to punish offenders who attact people the fed’s have given special protection from?
Isn’t the murder of or assult of anyone deemed to be as a result of anger or hate?
Why would it be needed to say that because of the sexual oreintation of or color of a person, that hate is any different? It is still hate it is still violence.
None of us has stated that it should be against the law of the land to be homosexual. Though there are sodomy laws still on the books. But for our government to give it’s seal of approval on homosexuality as a lifestyle, does require thoes of us who see it as an abomination against God to voice our opposition.
On the books also Mart, are laws against perjury (lying), inciteing a riot (sowing discord),murder (shedding innocent blood), planning terrorist activities (a heart that devises wicked plans), and yes sodomy (perverse sexual activities).
Make no mistake, the anti-christ will make it a law in our land to forsake the name of Christ and worship only the beast.
But for today, it is an old political saying that you cannot legislate morality. So why does the federal government keep trying to, while focusing on the liberal view of morality?
Mart. with all due respect, apply the same scripture to the agenda you are supporting. Apply that to the gay community marching for more rights on the Capitol..using your words describing the conservatives..”holding up banners” with their demonstrations…also apply II Timothy 3:1-7 referring to the day in which we live “1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” I do not feel very welcome on the “Christian” blog but I will stand with Christ. Fire away!
Yes, aren’t we supposed to be citiziens of “another country”?
Some are for one party, and totally against the other party, (I am talking now of the US)
I noticed one thing, that to many christians the abortion question has become a Troyan horse.(to put more issues on the table):
They trust the person who is against it, and are blind to the real thing that has been going on: they all serve mammon.
I so do agree with Mart.
Not with laws are we to fix this country, or any country here on earth.
Christ is the one we look at.
How can we ever make a country live on a morally high level? As if that is our mission, aren’t we supposed to make disciples. We preach, and the ones who listen we make disciples, and if people do not listen, we shake the dust of our feet, and walk on.
Steve and Jing, I’m pretty sure I understand your points. I agree with you that a compassionate “prophetic voice” is needed in society and that the spirit and trends of the age are being fulfilled.
But if we agree that there are certain eternal moral principles that cannot and should not be legislated and enforced in a pluralistic society, what do we want to be known for? How do we want those who desperately need Christ to think of us? Do we want those people to think that we are trying to impose our unenforceable values and beliefs on them? Or do we want them to see us as pointing to the person of Christ and the wisdom of the Bible–while doing good for others, being reasonable in our political agendas, and respecting and even fighting for their right to make personal decisions that are contrary to our own convictions?
Jing, You are as welcome on this Christian blog as am I.
It’s Mart’s blog, and he ain’t threw me off yet.
I’m smiling Mart…
Steve
Mart
I also want to thank you for your blog. I have been reading Our Daily Bread online now for sometime and only clicked on your blog the other day. I hope you don’t mind my little comments from over here in Europe. This site is an amazing forum and I am learning so much from it. As you would expect we see things from a totally differnt perspective here in the UK and wonder why you Americans find basic concepts like “free at the point of use” healthcare so contraversal. We do have one great thing in common,that is, our love of Jesus!
All else should just pale into insignifficants when we consider Him.
We all have different needs.
We should stand up for the rights of others to live there lives in freedom even when that freedom allows them to live a life we may not approve of.
Your great nation was founded on this princible.
I’ve run out of time, Mart, I may be back later today.But I wanted to say this before I left.
What are Elijah and John the Baptist known for? How are they remembered?
I want to do that which God commands me to do. I want to please Him, and if possible fulfill any work He has for me to do. I want to be known as a man who belongs to Christ and is fixed on the will of the Father. If there are any who are not yet saved who observe that as my behavior, then let that person make his own decision as to whether or not it is a lifestyle they would want to embrace.
If the world sees me as something else, what does it matter? I will forever follow Christ, wherever He leads me.
Steve
Hate is a strong emotion, but as I read Scripture I see that God has given us guidelines, even for hate. Those things that we should hate are those which toss God out of the picture to allow men to do “that which was right in his own eyes.”
Psalm 139:20-
20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.
21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
23Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
Here and in other Scriptures we are taught that we ought to HATE what God hates and Love what God loves.
In my eyes, I view homosexuality as another judgement from the LORD. As history shows there is a progression that leads to a nation falling in to that final state – first step; Get God out of everything, (because He interfers with the “I’s” doing what they think is right in their own sight.) Then intellectualize everything, (if you can’t see it, touch it, etc. it don’t exist. And, on and on – then those who are unregenerated see the believers as judgemental and strike out. But, when do we realize that we are not to express our opinion of others lifestyle choices ( whether immorality, theft, gluttony, gossip, etc.), we are to show them God’s opinion of those choices – and pray the Holy Spirit convict and bring the changes.
When “The Angel of the LORD”, and 2 other angels cleared out Sodom and Gommorah, was it because of the immoral life-styles, or because they had so walked from God that they “did that which was right in their own eyes?” Was that final judgement done in hate, or as a cleansing and teaching act from the LORD?
We can’t be the Holy Spirit to others, (that job is taken) but we can pray for and point the way. How will we do that if the ‘hate-crimes’ bill allows Pastor’s and other Christians to be ’shut-up’ or if our Bibles are removed, because they spout ‘hate’ at individuals life choices??? Is it a political issue? or a Biblical issue?
I have enjoyed all of your comments, and huggs to you all.
It’s thanksgiving weekend in Canada, so Happy Thanksgiving from Canada. I am so thankful for so many things…the most important one being that Jesus is my Lord and Saviour for without Him, I am nothing.
Steve – again, you express what I can’t seem to put into words.
Bob in England – “We should stand up for the rights of others to live there lives in freedom even when that freedom allows them to live a life we may not approve of.”……That to me would be condoning or agreeing with the life they are wanting to live. Why should I “stand up” for a prostitute just because she chooses to live the life of a harlot; to agree with her lifestyle so that she can continue her sinful ways feeling accepted and clean and upstanding. This rings of tolerance and to me there are somethings in life that just shouldn’t be tolerated. Sin should NEVER be allowed to feel “touchy, feely, everything is ok”. NO Bob, you won’t find me standing up for the rights of those who want to live guilt-free ESPECIALLY when it is in contradiction of what GOD says. There is a stand we should take and it is based on what the Bible says. And being a Christian means living the WHOLE Bible, not just parts of it. It is either black or white…not grey.
In my opinion.
I want to add, Steve, you hit it all on the head. We must take ourselves out of the picture and see all things through the eyes of God- starting with me. Change only comes with the Holy Spirit is allowed access to our lives to create the desire to change and that change should be toward the things of God, not the world’s ideas, or the desire of the flesh, nor the temptations of Satan, but what will please our loving God.
I do not believe it is our job to convict anyone of sin no matter what the sin is. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. Whoa to you Scribes and Pharisees you prevent people from coming to the Lord. Read all the whoa’s in Matthew 23. We can have righteous anger about sin but sin ourselves with how we deal with it. An example being abortion. We can be against it and show it by blowing up abortion clinics. Yikes!!
With hate crimes we are directed to not even be angry because that anger is the same as murder. Although there is nothing wrong with anger but we are not to let the sun go down with it still in our hearts. Christ is a forgiver of sinners. If we show love to those who sin it is not saying we are supporting the sin but showing the person that Christ died for their sin just like He did for ours.
Jing your comments are very welcome here as are everyone’s it is the finger pointing that I have issues with. Everyone has opinions just like everyone has a nose some are prettier than others but everyone has one. lol
Steve you stated, “If the world sees me as something else, what does it matter?”. It does matter although we are not here to conform to the world we are however to be transformed to the likeness of Christ because the world is watching and we are to be a light to them. I wonder who wants to come to the light if it is going to burn them. Just a thought.
I am in no way promoting the tolerance of sin. I am promoting how we deal with the sinner which we once were, we are now covered by the blood of the Lamb but we still have the propensity to sin. That it why it is so important to be careful how we deal with issues in our society, government and community.
The last topic I enden with the verse in Romans 11:31
And to me it seems appropriate here as well:
so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[c] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.
We should be under the conviction of the atonement.
Like Mozes in Numbers 7:89 -he heard the voice speaking to him from between the two cherubim above the atonement cover on the ark of the Testimony-
Just heard that today in church, and that should be the bottom of our conviction, as others have mentioned here.
We all are redeemed sinners.
Colossians 3:12Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
Many of you who contribute here are salt of the earth types who are appear untouched by the sins that so easily beset the rest of us. I admire and envy you and aspire to be like you, but it hasn’t happened yet. My most troublesome sin is not homosexuality, but gluttony. And I have prayed about it and tried to change, but I struggle with it and often give in to it. But I have no fear that if pastors are no longer able to preach against homosexuality that they will turn their attention to gluttony–I know much of their audience shares my sin.
In November, here in Maine we will be voting yet again on the right of gays to marry. The conservative opposition is focusing their advertising campaign on the fear that homosexuality will be promoted in the schools if gay marriage is allowed. Fifteen years ago I objected to a book in our school libray that presented a gay coule as a family. The administration removed the book from the shelves and made it available by request. I thought I was taking a Christian stand that would glorify God. Well, one of my co-workers has a brother living in the Netherlands who recently adopted a baby from Chicago. The brother is gay and has a partner. The baby was born to a mother who was using heroin. I’m embarrassed by the ’stand’ I took years ago, when I see the obvious love and sacrifice this gay couple has for this baby girl. I don’t know how God is going to sort this all out, but I am done taking a stand against one particular sin.
Saled, many of us are struggling, I may say, all of us are struggling, but I so not always talk about that. maybe I should. Like I have had struggles with depression. And WML, may I say something? You said you had a struggle with depression, and here today you mentioned you had been dwelling with your thoughts on things that are not OK, sins in our country in our families, in me. And here maybe is a clue, these things are not OK, but the dwelling on it, and worrying too much may be the trigger for the depression to start.
Just a thought. Because that is how it worked with me.
I did not know, but I dwelled too much on the negative things. (I write here too much, that is over the top too much negativity). And that did not lift up my spirits.
So now I try to lay these things (all these worries about things that are not OK) at the feet of Jesus, and leave them there. That is hard, because I can walk away and worry again. So immediately take the thought again, and throw it out. It is hard work. And it helps then to start to sing psalms, put on christian music. Or if you can, go to somebody and do it together, the singing of psalms and spiritual music, and praying. Ephesians 5:19-20
(I must say, that this happened after the Holy Spirit had comforted me very very much when I really had found Christ, or rather He had found me)
Dear Friends,
I believed the ‘operative word’ here is deception. My point at the beginning of this discourse was to point out that this so-called ‘hate-crime’ law has another agenda altogether. It disguises the real purpose.
I am not a ‘hate-monger’. I am a ‘love-monger’ in that I want all to experience the love of Jesus Christ as He intends it to be received. I have yet to be able to live up (love up)to HIS Standard.
As each of us has experienced on this very blog, our words can be distorted into something we did not intend. I submit to you that is satan’s handiwork. He takes glee in tempting us with ideas that he knows will rub us the wrong way and hit our ‘hot buttons’.
The scriptures tell us that satan has been attempting to subvert God’s plan long before the creation of mankind…learning about us to his advantage for eons. He has learned that we are too smart to be destroyed in one frontal attack… so he uses camoflage and ‘inches’ us out into the open by degrees.
There is an interesting definition of the word ‘tolerance’. It comes from the exacting measurements used to design and build the very best quality machines. Engineers found that ‘gaps’ in the works of machines cause excessive wear and directly affect its efficiency and longevity.
In other words, exact measurements means better construction. Better construction means stronger, longer lasting, higher value and, in the long run, less expensive machines(less maintenance,fewer breakdowns).
The devil was obviously present when God destroyed the Tower at Babel by confusing the languages of those who were building. Likewise, he uses the same techniques on us to distort our perceptions of what is being said. He has effectively turned our own weapons against ourselves.
Couple that with our own ’self’ishness(sinful nature) and we give him a very effective tool. Read Sinclair Lewis’ “Screwtape Letters”.
It may shock some of you to know that I do not believe that homosexuality is any more an abomination before God than gossip, lying, stealing, or any of the 10 Commandments. Anything that separates us from God is an abomination before HIM. There is only one unpardonable sin and that is an UNREPENTANT heart.
If I CLING to anything that God says is wrong, IF I refuse to cast it away, IF I choose IT over the love of Jesus Christ… IT IS AN ABOMINATION. I will earn my just wages… and we all know that “…the wages of sin is death…!”
Furthermore, it may ‘raise a few eyebrows’ to learn that I will defend your right to the freedom to choose to my last dying breath. It is what I swore allegiance to when I joined the USMC and later the USAF, stood before our flag and raised my hand in affirmation and asked God to help me in this oath before him. When I left active service I did not say in my heart “all bets are off”. It was with the knowledge that would continue to serve in what ever capacity I could.
Men and women who have taken that oath understand its weight as well as its significance. I wish we, christians, understood the weight and significance of accepting Christ as Savior and LORD! How many of us remember our wedding vows with the same clarity? (forsaking all others?…)
Let’s get serious… If satan can deceive us into ‘fudgin’ in any area, he finds a ‘chink’ in our armor. That is why we owe it to ourselves as well as our comrades in christianity to ’strap it on’ and ‘lock n load’.
Oooh–RAH!!
Huggs
frank
PS. Most of what was in my original post were not my words but references from the Focus on the Family site.
Frank, I love your perspective but am wondering whether the fight to defeat hate crime legislation has drawn us into a battle that gives us a reputation we don’t want.
As a result of “trying to win back our country” so many of our neighbors know us not as those who share the attitudes of Christ– but as those who want to impose our values on them.
Seems to me that on the battlefield in question that’s a costly fight of choice that does not serve the greater cause…that you so articulately express.
Semper Fi, I learned in church today means “Always Faithful”. Thank you to all our military for laying your life done for our freedom. I really like Oooh-Rah I said it in church when the pastor told what “Semper Fi” meant. lol I was never in the military but I like a marine, does that count. Lol
Do we want to impose our values on others or to speak up for the truth. Some may argue that truth is different for some than for others but if the truth we hold to is loving others I think that may count for helping to develop unity/oneness.
Sometimes things seem so simple yet we get in our heads and confuse the simplest of issues. Or is it we try so hard to be perfect we do not give ourselves a break or others.
I know that our founding fathers wrestled with this whole issue of legislating morality. One only needs to ‘google’ a little research to find writings of Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, etc.
The legal arena is no doubt born out of laws made that mirror for the most part the ten commandments. The ‘muck’ is born of legal interpretations which undoubtedly were ‘bent’ to support personal bias and pet projects. To put in today’s political terms…”Pork Belly Projects’ and amendments to bills that have nothing to do the issue.
The founders of the USA were extremely intelligent and well-educated individuals who owed their education to seminaries and institutions dedicated to teaching scripture and proper exegesis. It would be impossible to say the same for our current batch of legislators (save a few). Our forefathers gave of their time and talents without expectation of reimbursement for their services other than creating a ‘new nation under God’ rather than under the authority of man/monarchy/church or other worldly philosophy.
I believe it was Ben Franklin who said,”This govt does not require its members to be christian; however, without their involvement, it will most certainly fail!”
As Solomon pointed out in Ecclesiastes, without God, ALL is meaningless. There is no purpose in life. That is why Secular Humanism is so destructive. There is nothing to live for other than the moment and no universal truth to use as a gauge for what is ‘right’.
We end up like so many before us…
“Doing what is right in OUR own eyes!”
Beware of COMPROMISE! It sounds so ‘friendly’ and ‘innocuous’; however, it has been used by many in the past to ’sedate’ and ’seduce’ people into sleep when they needed to be vigilant and proactive.
How many ‘Non-Aggression Pacts’ did Hitler sign right before his Blitz-krieg? Dont say it cannot happen again. Afterall, as Solomon said, There is nothing new under the sun.
Lastly, I agree that we should be concerned for our reputations…but, not at the expense of our steadfast adherance to the Word. I have experienced first hand having my reputation trashed in a court of law and being convicted in the public arena despite the facts.
Huggs
frank
PS. I am (I hope) always willing to talk about my perspectives, admit when I am wrong and try to use language that is less dependent on emotion than logic. Sometimes, I recognize the two are twisted tightly together. Afterall, Our eternal existence depends on them. I get hurt, knocked down and even side-lined for a while; but, with Christ in my corner I can afford to be vulnerable, forgiving and love again (if not right away!”
Mart, let me thank you for your kind response from my last post. And everyone please forgive me for ending it with “fire away”..I knew I would get some strong disagreement with the context in which I quoted scripture. Of course we need to use scripture but the one liners and one verse bothers me because we have to put he Bible together as a whole. I agree Mart that we cannot legislate morality and it is probably unenforcable…but that doesn’t give us reason to hack away at the party that opposes it. You can’t control what people do but you can look at what’s good for this country and think of the children that might be put into gay parents househould because we didn’t oppose homosexuals right to marry. You say us conservatives shouldn’t be forcing our Christian views on them….but…they should be able to exist and change our culture to equal that of Sodom and Gommorah and are hypocritical in our stand because of others sins prevalent in the conservative commnunity…but don’t critisize the liberal side..Double stand here Mart. “How do we want those that desperately need Christ to view us”. I hope they would look at me and say..There’s a guy that stood against sin, against the gay lifestyle, but when his gay uncle had no place to live, he gave him a house, and set it up for him..yet he remained Rock Solid against the gay lifestyle and I hope they would say I followed Christ’s teaching to stand up to the devil and sin. Of course we have to have to have the right attitude to those that fight against our convictions..but still show them love… We cannot, and I repeat cannot pat them on the back and support what God calls an abomination like the Obama and liberal party in power would have us believe. You cannot stand with God, and hold hands with the devil. What did Jesus say? Let us have the mind of Christ. “If you’re ashamed of me here, I’ll be ashamed of you when I come in my glory.” I stand firm with the conservative cause. Let me give the best example I can and I’ll close. I grew up family of 4 kids. 1 girl and 3 undisciplined boys…a praying mother and an acoholic father..I lived in an abusive home and all I had to turn to was Christ. I couldn’t of made it thru the hassles and hurt and physical abuse along with my mother and sister still at home with Christ. My Dad got save at 70 years of age and died at 81. My mothers prayers were answered after 30 years and several years after she passed away. When my Dad died, he was the best friend I ever had. I know about tolerance, I know about forgiveness. Had we patted him on the back and told him to keep drinking, it would have been different. To his dying day he respected those that took a stand against his wrong and respected them more. I hope I made sense. Thanks for bearing with me. I’m just here to learn, help, and be helped. Jing
For me, I will not listen to political radio talk shows because if I do so, I will have contempt and judgmental about those folks the show is criticizing. Jesus wants me to love my neighbors as myself which means EVERYONE!! Thats nearly impossible for me to do even without the political radio. Why do I want to foster and compound my bitterness towards others when God asked me to do the opposite?
On a different note, both of my sons went to Christian and were raised in a Christian home. It broke my heart when my oldest “came out the closet”. My prayer is that he will find a church that teaches the fundamental Biblical truth; that he will just become celibate and let his celibacy be his testament for how much he loves the Lord plus that he will find others that will encourage him as well.
Been trying to live with Him. The world we live He loves so much. All my eyes and ears and all the other senses I believe need to be open to this world, but only by His way I can sense right. Even if so much things go wrong with governments, school, or even church, we trust in Him and do right, listening and following a Holy spirit.
We clearly need to pray for our leaders in this world. — I felt that is the least thing I can do as a bottom line, instead of saying lots of things in vain. God wants to bless all of us.
Well!
I have been out most of Sunday and it is now 6:30AM on Monday morning. Goodness know why I am awake and reading this so called intellegent stuff.
I cannot believe what you people are saying here. No wonder the rest of the world hates thr USA. Get real, Jesus came to save the world, not to condem it.
I am a homosexual, there is nothing I can do to change that. Like Paul I have prayed and Prayed again for God to remove this “thorn in the flesh” but it is still there. We must love each other as He loved us.
There is no other comandment!
PS.
Apart from…. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind.
Amen
Hey, Bob, I applaud your prayer to God to take your ‘thorn of the flesh’ away. How are you doing now that you know God wants you to overcome it just as He did with Paul?
Paul did not foresake God or succumb to his ‘thorn’.. NO, he continued to struggle with it and confessed it for what it was. He agreed with God(confessed it as sin)and found the strength to overcome it despite his weakness.
When I was younger, I was sexually active before marriage and unfaithful during my early years of married life. I know the lust of the flesh. I know the intense struggle against the temptation. It has taken a long time of trial and failure to continue to follow Christ rather than lose hope and settle for ‘that’s just the way I am’ or similar excuses for my ‘thorn’.
I want to encourage you and ‘cheer’ you on to win the race. Paul asks the question,”How would it look for me to urge others to press on to victory and lose my own soul in the process?”
BTW: Christ didnt stop with the greatest of the commandments… He added,”Love your neighbor as yourself!” And he wasnt talkin’ about sex.
Huggs
frank
This is what is stirring my thoughts:
Genesis 18:20 (NKJ) “And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, (21) “I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
So, first, God was focused on “outcry.”
Outcry from whom about what? Didn’t they have other gods and sacrifice rituals? Don’t people participate in behavior(s) to get somethig? Or ’cause they can’t escape it? Or both? Can’t it then become your taskmaster?
Another “outcry” -Genesis 4:10: “And He said, ‘What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground.’”
An “outcry” -Genesis 2:23: “Now it happened in the process of time that the king of Egypt died. Then the children of Israel groaned because of the bondage, and they cried out; and their cry came up to God because of the bondage.” Gen. 3:7 “And the Lord said; ‘I have surely seen the oppression of My people who are in Egypt and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters, for I know their sorrows.”
It speaks to me that God first hears the outcries. Some were victims, some got involved in behavior(s) and couldn’t rescue themselves (?) And He even goes to the scene(s)-why? Why not just fix the whole thing from Heaven?
God does allow us to choose our “taskmasters” whether it’s homosexuality, alcoholism, drugs, gluttony, anger, name any sin you want (they’re all equal). And satan, who hates God, is effective at making it satisfying for us, for awhile.
But our loving Lord Jesus, waits for us to accept salvation, even to our last breath, when me may no longer be able to do anything more to “save” ourselves (pass laws, fight back, serve time, hide, etc.) We may not be able to do any physical acts to repent (change) but only to change in our hearts because we are “nailed to a thief’s cross” next to Him, getting what we deserve. In Luke 23, vv 39-43, one criminal blasphemed Jesus as God (rejected Him); the second criminal rebuked the first for saying that, confessed and in repentance in his heart, asked Jesus to “remember” me; and Jesus said the man would be with Him in Paradise.”
Whoa! all that crying out. The weak sheep fall out of the flock and satan, like a lion seeking whom he MAY devour, fills his belly. My experience is that the attention on homosexuality is way out of proportion in our country and that tips me off to realize the overemphasis is a distraction from “loving thinking” that God would have us to do. Confusion. People feeling lonely, lost…tempted to some kind of imperfect love, fulfillment that doesn’t.
I see “outcry” against any danger ahead, as significant. And what is it? Surely prayer; noticing and hugging around the “weak sheep” to keep them in the flock rather than kicking them out to the edges where the enemy claws at them. Speaking up for or against laws that are off course or deceptive. Being part of writing laws that do address the “problem” and voting out legislators who no longer compose or read the documents they enact to govern us.
Whoa! That’s enough from me now!
This is very heavy stuff and quite honestly, God’s truth regarding these issues may not be palatable to all but it is wise for followers of Christ to view these current news events as you said, through the window of the scriptures and the “grace” of our Lord.
I agree with your thoughts on social conservatives leading the fight against hate crime legislation. For Christians to legislate morality under a secular government that represents a purely pluralistic society is nothing but barking up the wrong tree. In 1 Cor 5, Paul says: “I wrote you in my [previous] letter not to associate [closely and habitually] with unchaste (impure) people–Not [meaning of course that you must] altogether shun the immoral people of this world… since otherwise you would need to get out of the world and human society altogether!”
“What [business] of mine is it and what right have I to judge outsiders? God alone sits in judgment on those who are outside.” So, we cannot judge those that do not have any knowledge of God’s truth. Rather we should love them and care for the eternal salvation of their souls by pointing them to the “grace” of God revealed through Jesus Christ. Grace…! Had it not been for God’s grace, I would be dead in my sins to remain separated from God forever.
“Because God was so gracious, so very generous, here I am. And I’m not about to let His grace go to waste.”(I Cor. 15:10). It is because I now live under grace, sin has no dominion over me (Rom 6:14). The grace of God not only gave me salvation from sins but also teaches me to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly, righteously and godly in this present evil world (Titus 2:11-12). And when sin, flesh, the world and the devil come against me II Cor 12:9 assures me that His grace is sufficient for me!
So, if I’m called to show grace does that mean Christians who stand for the truth should tolerate sin and act as if everything is just fine? Paul exhorts: “Is it not those inside [the church] upon whom you are to pass judgment? I write to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of [Christian] brother if he is known to be guilty of immorality…Drive out that wicked one from among you [expel him from your church]. You are to deliver this man over to Satan [to destroy carnal lusts], that [his] spirit may [yet] be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
Grace therefore, helps me to look at people and see them as God sees them. It is not compassion to allow a person to remain suffering in sin. In fact, not to tell people the truth that they are in sins is to show hatred for their souls. Just as Jonah who knew the truth of what God was about to do with Nineveh but would not speak the truth because he had actually wished for the death of his enemies.
The guilt of sin causes untold suffering but then it offends us to be reminded of our sins. To refrain from speaking the truth and show Mercy to the sinner in order to save them from their suffering due to guilt is to numb their needs for a cure which is a.k.a “mercy-killing”. Sin is evil and is from the “enemy” and if spared, will certainly come back to bite and destroy the one who showed mercy. Saul showed mercy to spare his enemy, the evil Agag. Some time later it was the evil Haman the Agagite who was the enemy that plotted to destroy God’s people.
Jesus had a compassionate prophetic “voice” and did not withhold the truth about the adulterous woman’s sin. In telling her “to go and sin no more” He spoke the truth and judged her sin without accusing the sinner. And when my sin is pointed out by others, “Grace” also enables me to accept criticism without hurt or bitterness because it enables me to “esteem the other better than myself”.
If we the church will not uphold God’s moral standards what is the point in preaching morality to society that has turned it’s back on God? If we become silent about sins within the church then it is to straddle the fence to compromise with the world and to tolerate sin within the Church. We should always love sinners because we are all sinners and it is because of God’s grace we hate sin to not indulge in it or excuse our sins.
And we cannot speak the truth–that Christ laid down his life to reconcile sinners to God–without talking about the subject of sin. Homosexuality does not send people to hell. It is rejection of Jesus Christ which sends people to hell. Christians who refuse to let go of their sins also reject the eternal security of God’s Grace. In order to cover up their sins, Christians who resort to religious works of Good Samaritan deeds in order to impress God also reject the gift of salvation provided by God’s Grace. It is sad… but that’s the undeniable truth!
I also agree that we should not speak evil of dignitaries and must submit to authority… “all” authority i.e. authority of parents, the Church and the Government. How can Christians be submissive to their Government (Democratic or otherwise)?
By paying the taxes and by being good citizens in society…just like Paul and Christ. But guess what? They both honored Caesar but at the same time also stood firm to defend the Gospel truth. Result? Both suffered injustice and eventually execution at the hands of their ruling authorities.
Point is: While we are required to submit to Authority, we must not lose sight of our real purpose. Our purpose is not to fix this sinful world. The utmost priority of Christians is to bear witness to the Truth and to walk in the truth despite opposition like in the case of Daniel and his friends. And we all know how mightily God used Paul’s imprisonment to further the Gospel. And it is in defense of the Gospel, God’s people unite together as “one” so that the world would know that the Father had sent him.
“Above all, you must live as citizens of heaven, conducting yourselves in a manner worthy of the Good News about Christ. Then …I will know that you are standing together with “one” spirit and “one” purpose, fighting together for the faith, which is the Good News.” (Phil 1: 27)!
Bob, thank you for sharing but the comment you made seems to lump all of us as unintelligent and without compassion regarding your sexual preference. Not only did you lump all those on this site but also in the whole USA. So that statement is totally false and judgmental. So in your attempt to have us see the point you are making you also have set in condemnation and judgment toward us and homosexuality has nothing to do with that. I think that is exactly what this topic is about, to be able to discuss things in a manner that reflects the love of Christ.
Was Jesus involved in politics? Seems to me that we are focusing on the wrong concept here. Jesus was about his Father’s business, as we should be.
I come to this blog for Christian fellowship and get the same thing I get at work in the breakroom.
“Good Conversation”
Our friend ellavl, thought he would find Christian fellowship here while talking about a divisive subject.Bob though he would find a tolerant Christian community. Most here look for an avenue to express their thoughts. It should always be so in their “breakrooms”.
As is usually the case, the subject got twisted around to sound as though, we Christians who are opposed to homosexuality, are somehow void of love and compassion.
Bob, I too congradulate your choice to be a follower of Christ. It is the right choice. I also congradulate you on your acknowledging that your sexual preference is seen to you as in need of being removed from you. This too is the right choice.
You and God will have to deal with your need, but you have the added prayers from me in your struggle to be free. I pray that your prayers are answered.
The blood of Christ has already covered your’s and my sins.
Because I have a stand against sin, does in no way mean that I hate the sinner.
Jesus loved all of we sinners enough to pay the price for our salvation. He did not go to the cross to make sin acceptable.
Thank you Steve
I have struggled all my life between my sexuallity and my love of Jesus. I am open and honest about it. I can see from your comments that you to struggle with issues in your life, as I suspect we all do.
I may be wrong in the way I lump the whole USA into one mold, but your country needs a marketing makeover when it comes to your place in the world. You should thank God every day for Barrack Obama, you may think he is trying to liberize and corrupt your soiciety, but in reality he cares deeply for people and there right to live a descent life in peace and not poverty.
I am not as versed in scripture as many seem to be on here, but I love my Lord. One day I will be free of the sins of the flesh and one day I will see Him face to face. God Bless
Bob
Bob:
Glad to see you’re still blogging with us… It took a lot of courage to open up and continue to ‘be real’ rather than ‘launch a torpedo and leave’. Hope you will continue to share.
As our friend, Steve, reminds us, it is too often easy to confuse ‘hating the sin’ with ‘hating the sinner’. Each of us struggles ‘desperately’ to overcome our unique obstacle to holiness. That is why Christ came. God knew we could not do it without HIS help.
I went back and read my last entry and want to make it clear that I still have the same weakness. I have learned simple tactics to avoid putting myself in situations that threaten my ‘purity’ in Christ.
I sincerely hope you are right about Barack Obama. What causes me concern is that I have yet to hear him name Jesus Christ as his source of wisdom and power. The world has many ‘options’ for seeking wisdom and power; however, my experience tells me that only one is the truth, the light, and the Way.
My experience also tells me that the decisions a person makes reflect their beliefs, maturity and wisdom. So far, Pres. Obama has not impressed me with the issues he has chosen to focus upon or the people he has gathered to ‘advise’ him in his decision-making.
We, in America, are truly blessed to be able to voice our opinions and vote as we choose without fear of repercussion or retaliation. It is ‘the’ most basic of our rights as guaranteed by our constitution. As I have said I before, I may not agree with you; but, I will defend your right to disagree with my life!
As with any country that claims to be a democracy, the people must take responsibility for their own govt. It requires active involvement. Every November, I am reminded that “If you dont exercise your right to vote; you give up your right to belly-ache about the results!”
Freedom isnt Free. We cant hand off the responsibility to govern ourselves anymore than we can expect someone else to accept Christ for us. But, lets not lose sight of the larger issue.
We may lose our freedom and suffer grave consequences; but that pales in comparison to losing our ‘eternal’ souls. Thank God it is written,”Nothing can separate us from the Love of Jesus Christ.” Once we are His, its a done deal.
God Bless You!, Bob…Steve…Mart…and all who visit here. And God Bless and Keep Free these United States of America! May we never lose sight of HIS place in our country.
Huggs
frank
Bob, Obama is an excellent orator. We don’t know yet if he will be able to do what he said or says. So far I diseagree wiht his moral stand and most of his idea. Somehow what I see at this moment is : he talks and do not do his words. He still continues Bush policy in international affair, nothing has been changed yet. I am grateful to God for George W. Bush. He is the man of His word. He stood for what he believes. After 9/11, USA never been attacked. He concerned about he oppressed people. President Malaria Initiative in 2006,to reduce malaria morbidity and mortality in Africa, is one of his many efforts in helping the world. Billion of US Dollar he has approved to help reducing HIV in Africa. Yes, he against the stem cell, because he believes in sanctity of life.Laura Bush is activily promote the wellbeing of girls and women in Afghanistas. I know, he is not a perfect man, I disagree with him in cerain thing too. But I respect him for not seeking popularity first. The world hates US because the world can not have what God has granted to this country. Thousands of immigrants come to US daily, legally and illegeally. Does it say that the world loves this country instead? I am one of them, an immigrant from Indonesia. As a Chinese descent, and worse is a Christian, we had been mass attacked periodically by native people.( in 1997 Chinese girls are attacked and raped withoug protection from government). We are hated because of what we are, not because of what we do. USA is not a perfect country, yet God bless this country, which I believe, because the zealous love for God of our founders. 2 Chr. 24: 20 and 24 said that God forsake Israel because they foraske Him. He delivered His chosen people to the the hands of the army of Syrians. This history will berepeated in USA if we fosake our Lord, in the name of tolerance, or in concentrating of giving good impression to the world by forsaking the Lord commands. Our Lord is Holy, it is His nature that right and wrong can not be one. Mart, sorry I disagree with you regarding noble pirze for Obama, it is too premature. Noble pirzed is based on evidence, not effort or thought. I compare this event to Yasser Arrafat who received noble prize for peace after leading many terrorist activities, and still trying to abolisch Israel from the map.
To Saled, don’t feel embarrased to your right decision in removing the gay family book from the school library. A single mother may be able to raise her children lovingly, yet we still should teach our next generation to honor marriage as a holy insitution , given by God. We do not condone prostitution, even though a prostitute is able to raise her family lovingly and financially soudn. There is moral issue in it. Do you justify Robin Hood if he is real exist?
( please forgive my messy English grammar, I am in a hurry and can not spell check). Steve, wretch like me, Jing, I agree with your opinion. I send my hug to all of you who share your thought in this blog, with equal warm.
I woke up this morning thinking about this blog and how easy it is to throw around names as one’s identity. We identify ourselves with what we believe we are. Saying I am a prostitute then you remain a prostitute, a homosexual you remain a homosexual, liar you remain a liar, thief you remain a thief and so one. We are not what we do but who we are in Christ. We are children of God but that is reflected in how we behave.
I remember when I first opened the pages of the bible to read I was so amazed at the people that were in those pages. I was amazed at the things they did and God still loved them. God called them things like a man after God’s own heart, righteous because of faith, dearly loved and many beautiful names but they were not perfect nor were they ever expected to be. That is why I feel in love with God’s word because I felt there was hope for me. Whether anyone wants to admit it we all struggle with some problem or another but that is what will keep us humble and in need of a savior.
We have brought up Sodom and Gomorrah. God destroyed them because of what they did and because of what they did not do. They were arrogant, haughty, and did not take care of those in need. I may be wrong but I look at the fruit in a person’s life and am attacked to those I see that first admit their imperfection and then how much love they show for others. On the other hand I am also attracted to those who need a touch of love who by all outward appearances would repel anyone.
I have no idea in the world the pressure of being a President. Being pulled this way and that way and I may struggle with wanting to please rather than doing what is right. All I have to say I am glad it is not me in that position. What a enormous responsibility is on his shoulders. Being the head of my household and the responsibility I had to handle was at times overwhelming for me. So Mr. President my prayers are for you and the courage to do what will be the best for all.
Mart-a must ask question! Why are you so critical of social conservatives opposing the hate crime bill (only because of granting special rights to gays) but yet you constantly contend they shouldn’t try to legislate morality, abortion etc? Isn’t this a double standard? Politics should be put aside here.
ygp, I personaly loved your comments. You are a part of what makes America great.
Steve
Jing you might re-read Mart’s blog entry and those of the past. What you stated was not even what was being discussed it is how we as Christians approach issues and how we talk about them.
Exactly pooh. I expected you. Why consistently the liberal slant? I did re-read it and I’ve read daily for some time. Go back and read my last blog again.
I have enjoyed this exchange of views. As I read through all of the postings I recalled an event relating to the 2000 Census. When I received my Census in the mail, I became agitated and said the government has no right to all of the personal information they are requesting. I refused to participate. Later, a representative from the Census contacted me. He let me know about the law and if I did not answer at least what were considered mandantory questions I could be taken to jail. He then paused and asked me if I was a Believer. I said yes. He then responded that this is not the battle. That statement has stayed with me all of these years as a reminder. I think of how easy it is for Satan to distract Believers and re-focus their energies. I am constantly having to remind myself to lift my thoughts higher so that I can see the real issues. I have spent so much time fighting wars that weren’t worth fighting.
I read again 1Peter chapter 2. In the message translation it says, “Friends, this world is not your home, so don’t make yourselves cozy in it. Don’t indulge your ego at the expense of your soul. Live an exemplary life among the natives so that your actions will refute their prejudices. Then they’ll be won over to God’s side and be there to join in the celebration when He arrives. Make the Master proud of you by being good citizens. Respect the authorities, whatever their level; they are God’s emissaries for keeping order. It is God’s will that by doing good, you might cure the ignorance of the fools who think you’re a danger to society. Exercise your freedom by serving God, not by breaking the rules. Treat everyone you meet with dignity. Love your spiritual family. Revere God. Respect the government.
Jing, I’m not sure I understand your question. Are you saying that I’m actually being political by expressing concern about fellow evangelicals who are trading spiritual influence for political strategy– and a predictable back lash (2Cor 10:4)?
Carlj, wow, your insight, and The Message’s powerful translation of Peter, as far as I’m concerned, really speaks to the point.
Reading ALL of these comments took some valuable time but it has encouraged me to watch my perspective on ‘one issue over another type’ thinking (not that this is necessarily bad, depending on the matter, but to keep it in check). With a gay relative, I can relate to the emotions involved. I don’t know that the ‘thorn is the flesh’ has been asked to be removed but I work to love this person as best as I am able. Listening to the exchanges (sometimes direct, mostly / always loving, with courage and vulnerability) and reading the support given to Bob, I am touched. Watching men do this for one another has spoken to me, even as a female.
Sometimes I think the simplest answer to a lot of our questions can be boiled down to one of the shortest directives God may have given us — “choose life” as both death and life are set before us. I might be naive in saying so but didn’t America begin when folks realized they had enough with POLITICal correctness? The person who wrote as ‘ypg’ said A LOT. Wanting God (although they have been self-serving in that they wanted His values implemented, there was a zealous love for Him) might very well be why we have been blessed the way we have. And in that, it’s not about what we get from Him but Him alone that must be our motivation. Love and hate are not cohesive, just as we cannot love God and mammon. Both exist. What is our choice? Circumstances played out in the 1700’s that allowed our ancestors to take a stand. Let us not forget this. Thank you to those who have and do now serve our country. And thank you to those who have and do now serve our Lord!
ygp, and others, your point of view helps all of us reflect on whether we ourselves are expressing the attitudes of Christ.
And thank you Carlj.
May we stay and come and stay and come together and stay together … you get the point:) as believers to encourage one another in what you refer to in 1 Peter 2. I need support. Either way, thankfully HE is FAITHFUL!
Pooh and Mart,and the rest,
I am not a saint. I might write something not pleasant or inccorect in my previous opinion, please forgive me, but that is what I believe.I do not try to attack or pinpoint mistake to anybody. Everyday I struggle to reflect Christ in my life, to shine for Him. This is the reason I read His word and pray everyday. Read your writing and follow your blog to obtain more understanding about His word and His will. By no means I feel better than other people. I worked as a physician ( in Indoensia), who treated several ( if not many) prostitutes. My heart broke for them, as I know, they were longing to live as socially acceptable women. I have family members and good friends who are homosexual. I still love them dearly, yet if they ask me, I tell them that their chosen lifestyle are not what God meant for them. It is hard for them , and for me as well.
In whatever countries we live, Christians are not only citizens in countries of this world, but also citizens of the kingdom of God. In this “Good Conversation” about Washington’s move to expand hate crime legislation and the Iranian spokesperson’s threat to blow up the heart of Israel, the important questions are, “Where is our primary citizenship and loyalty? Are we first Americans/ citizens of any nation in this world and then Christians? Or are we first Christians and then Americans/ citizens of a nation in this world?”
God has ordained government to keep order (Rom. 13) and it is responsible for the “punishment of evildoers” (1 Pet. 2:14). Therefore, even while we seek to fulfill the duties of being a citizen of an earthly kingdom/country like Jesus and Paul, for followers of Christ, as long as the Government does not interfere with our faith in Jesus, our primary allegiance always is towards our Heavenly country. The 2 kingdoms are quite distinct and obviously, this will also divide us Christians as we will certainly differ in our thinking based on our priorities.
And for those who belong to the eternal kingdom, Jesus is Lord and King… not Caesar or any President or king, hence we look at this world with a different perspective. The Bible says there will be wars and rumors of wars until Jesus returns. Regardless of who is awarded the Nobel peace prize, we the citizens of that eternal country know for sure that no man can bring peace except Jesus, the King of kings and Lord of Lords.
So, when some expectantly pin their hopes on their “golden calf”, we trust in the living God and “we eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.” Phil 3:20 and when “Some nations boast of their chariots and horses, but we boast in the name of the LORD our God. Those nations will fall down and collapse, but we will rise up and stand firm.”
And since my primary loyalty is to the kingdom of God, how can I really care? My word of comfort to the dog in the pic is: We have all sinned and it is not just you. So, don’t feel guilty but look to the Cross where God showed His compassionate and caring love for you. The Cross… is the only place to unload your sin and turn around to live a whole new life that is free of sin…
If the dog represents someone that is already a Christian, then I would urge them to believe what the Bible says: that there is no sin that is outside the scope of the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit. “Hear the word of the Lord, rulers of Sodom; give ear to the law of our God, people of Gomorrah. Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes; cease to do evil; Come now, and let us reason together, says the Lord; though your sins are as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be like wool.” Isaiah 1:10,16,18
If anyone claims that their sin is a “thorn in my flesh” so does every sinner… a drug/alcohol/porn addict, a schizophrenic, and those who struggle with the sin of pride, anger and arrogance. There is no disorder that cannot be healed by God’s transforming power and there is no sin that cannot be overcome by His enabling or sustaining grace. If we turn to Him, God is fully able to deliver.
BTW, Paul who had this “thorn in the flesh” himself taught against sexual sins very strongly (1Cor 6:9-18). The apostle Paul plainly states in 1 Cor. 7: 7-8 that he was unmarried and exercised self-control over his sexual desires.
“And the dog? Am just realizing how much easier it is sometimes to identify with her, wonder what she’s thinking… and to care…” “No one cares how much you know, until they know how much you care” and no one can care like Jesus cares with the right attitude… He healed the man that had been sick for 38 years and later “when Jesus found him in the temple/church, He said to him, See, you are well! Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” John 5:14
Jing, lol, I hope what I was showing was a Christian slant. I try not to have any slant other than that.
Mart, I’m not sure I understand your question (smile) I guess my answer to your’s would be yes. My point was, who was on the opposition of the hate crime bill? And I stated earlier why. I’ll try to make myself more clear. If you don’t think the conservatives should try to legislate morality, abortion, gay marriage etc. Then why do you think it’s so bad when they oppose the hate crime bill. Isn’t the other side trying to legislate the same?
pooh, would you please refrain from being the “yes man” every time I post. I have my views that I feel reflect the attitude of Christ. You seem to have an attitude. I just want to participate too. Not everyone is going to see exactly like you. With all due respect.
Where on earth are you coming from????
I bet Mart is scratching his head and thinking he’s opened a big ol’ can of worms here. We’ve gone from one extreme to another and nearly, if not actually, crossed the line to personal attacks. LET’S DON’T GO THAT FAR, FOLKS. Someone made the comment that he wasn’t a saint, but that is exactly what we are in Christ. Regardless of our own views on politics, homosexuality, and so on, let us strive to reflect Jesus as he reflected the Father in his life. From raising the dead, healing the sick, driving the money changers from the temple and dying on the cross, Jesus reflected the Father in all he said and did.
Tony
Whoops, I was writing this Tony as you were… Yeh, you’re right “a can of worms” but let’s keep talking a bit longer… :-)
Jing, from where I sit, my concern is what followers of Christ can do to the reputation of Christ.
Seems to me that we’ve had enough time now to see what happens when evangelicals become known for trying to organize themselves politically against the values and spirit of the age.
The result is that two sides end up angry thinking “the other side is taking away our country”.
In the middle of it all, our Lord calls us to a kingdom of the heart that does not move ahead by the power of the sword or ballot box, but rather by the Spirit of Christ.
I think it’s an issue for us to be known more by our our politics than for our love… with the result that more than a few of us have earned the reputation for being hawks for war, who trash the environment, while boasting that we’ll soon “be out of here”… all the while fighting for our own legal rights, and amassing our own personal wealth, and fighting to keep our taxes… because…. because, “we’ll soon be out of here to live with Christ forever.
If I was an unbeliever… I think I’d say I know what they’re doing… regardless of what they’re saying…
Some of these things brought up in tis blog are not clear to people outside US. The hate bill, and all is said about it, I have no clue. It is in the news in my country that today US will vote about the health insurance. Many millions uninsured people living in the US. But it seems to be no topic here.
Do not let the poisoned relation that is between the two parties in your country come between christians.
Many have said this already: Which is our party? What do two parties in a certain country have to do with God’s Kingdom that is to come? Aren’t we part of the Rock that is going to hit the kingdom of this earth at its feet? All these parties will be gone in a while. Daniel 2:26-45
(I liked the insight of Loretta, that God’s perspective is not so much the sin, but the outcry that is coming from the earth. He is very much aware and caring about everybody, allthough it is because we suffer for our own sins and the sins of the world.
This caring heart must be the underlining thought.
foreverblessed, thanks for giving us yet another perspective on ourselves. Yes the health care bill is a huge issue here that has also polarized us, and resulted in the perception that the same evangelical political block is fighting against the present administration– and trying to keep things the way they are– while millions of people don’t have the kind of health care we have.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t know what it is best as far as the right solution for health care, the budget, the current financial mess etc. My concern, once again, is what the public sees us doing that seems to disregard the needs of so many!!
Hey, I’ve got to check out of here for most of the day. Am in the studio this week recording Discover the Word Conversations with Haddon and Alice. We’re still doing studies in the book of Ruth, but are trying to finish that up by Friday. I’ll check back in later tonight in hope that all of you have gotten this thing figured out :-)… Have a good day.
We left out the abortion issue with this “Good Conversation”.
Another abomination to God, as explained as “the shedding of innocent blood”
How can a person who claims to be christian remain silent, when faced with expressing their opinions against sin?
What is political about not wanting sin to have its way?
If you think being Christ like means, setting on the sidelines while sin corrupts every area of life around you. You are very mistaken.
We have a responsibility to our children, to hand over to them a better life than the one we have lived. If you believe that silently watching as Satan takes over our school systems and every walk of life is being Christ like. I don’t even know what to say to you to help you see the “light”.
I too cry out to God. I cry out for God to place good people in places of authority to block evil as it tries to corrupt every good thing our forefathers and we have tried to do.
What is so wrong with trying to create a society of people who’s intentions are to lift up the Christ to the world. Show that same world what happens when people come together as “One Nation Under God”?
I’ll tell you what happens, what you have been reading happens. The devil himself attacks every good thing he can. And decieves all whom he can. So that when we stand against him we are seen as the enemy of the world.
The world can have Obama and all he stands for, I will take Jesus Christ and all He stands for.
Incase you missed it, read what Jesus stands for.
Do not forget that the poor people do not have big influence.
Who will defend the poor?
In our country it is now a topic to have the people work 2 more years, so they will get their pensions at 67 instead of 65. Here was this person from the trade union who said: We can save tax money much easier by stopping the tax reduction on mortgages higher then 200 000 euro’s. She probably is right, because only half of the people older then 50 still work. There are not enough jobs to keep everybody going.
But guess what happens? This idea did not get a chance, because the influential people who have a say in this, all have mortgages on huge houses, big prices.
The rich rule the country, and they decide. And their own interest comes first.
(Only after people have become very rich do they become filantropic.)
Did you read James 5 often? Just read it. v1 says: Now listen you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you.
Here is another outcry:
v4Look! The wages you failed to pay the workman who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty.
And many hard labourers get health problems, who cares for them?
It was news here that the firemen that workes so hard in 2002 are not taken very well care of now that they have health problems because of all the chemical stuff they inhaled during their brave work.
That the soldiers who served in the wars and are injured neither are taken care of.
Is that not an outcry?
SFDetc. what is wrong you ask? You try to fix a country, right here right now.
Aren’t we to be with our Fathers business: making disciples? And He never said that the whole country would be disciples in this age. He would show which are His, and those we are to disciple.
This is not the battle. That sentence will stick with me too. In the 90’s, I was greatly influenced by some of the more prominent conservative Christian misistries. I thought it was my job to change the world. I love what the USA used to be. I love what the family used to be. But are those things the most important to God? I don’t think he is depending on those institutions to do his work. Previously, I mentioned the book concerning
gay couples that I asked to be removed from our school library, thinking I was doing God’s will. Now my school is sometimes visited by a gay couple and their baby girl who are related to one of my co-workers. This baby girl was born to a heroin addict. Who is crying out to God for these babies? Who was doing the will of the Father, me removing the book, or the gay couple who adopted the baby?
Foreverblessed, The problems we face as a country are here because good people did nothing when they should have.
I have devoted my life to serving my community and doing all I can to make a difference.
I vote and and influence and speak up when injustice is perpetrated upon thoes who cannot fight back.
I am but one, however if I did nothing or said nothing just because others are too deceived or misled, I would be as guility as thoes who have brought this country to it’s current condition.
What do you think the fathers business is? What kind of disciples do we make if we do nothing, but talk?
There will come a time when I will stand before Jesus, and He will ask of me,”What did you do, with the life I gave you?”.
Shall I tell the Christ that I did nothing while millions of innocents were murdered for the convienence of their parents?
Shall I tell Him that when Satan tried to influence children, I sat idle while waiting for someone else to speak up?
So I ask again what is wrong with encouraging the nations leaders to, yes become as I, a disciple for Christ? I would be very pleased to think the whole of the USA would become disciples for Christ. I would be equally pleased to see the whole of the world become disciples…..The Fathers business, to make disciples of ALL men.
I am thankfull we live in a country where we can express our thoughts, ideas and preferences without fear of retaliation. Our pastors are free to speak out against sin as death to our relationship with the Father without fear of facing jail time. It seems to me there are some in this country who would like to ban such speech even from the pulpit. Yes, there are some fringe groups who preach violence as the answer to political problems in the US. I’ve never attended any such meetings and would publicly and privately denounce any one who did. Encouraging violence is not the christian way in this country of ours. We have non-violent options available to us should we need it. But 233 years ago a group of men felt deep in their core that a violent, bloody revolution was needed to gain freedom for 13 colonies from an opressive government 3000 miles away. Were these men right? If they had not acted as they did on July 4, 1776, would there be the United States of America? Just my thoughts.
Tony
Yes, indeed, but afcourse we should do thing.
-The things we do should be done out of the rest we have in Christ. Sometimes I do not sense the rest, especially not when you talk about the one party, but you get the rest again when you talk about the other party. Are you then not allied to a party more then to Christ?
-And the next point: if you cry out against sin, do so to ALL the sins, not just the ones that does not cost the rich any money.
Not defending the poor is also a sin. (see James 5)
I do remember, the one thing to remember, during the time of mutual assured destruction, people cared enough for at least themselves not to push buttons, now a days, people just don’t care so MAD can never be an option. God made each of us, gave each gifts to share with others and by sharing, a line of communication is opened. Today we have so called men of God condoning gambling by openly participating in gambling, and to so called bless the cards before he makes a decision. Not good, Jesus was against that and the lifestyle then and now. We see a generation of “you owe me, gime, mine all mine”. Yes Jesus did mention the poor and said we will always have them. But what constitutes poor, in this country yes we have the poor, I mean really poor, out on the streets with only the clothes they have on. Those who are that way and are willing to work but have not work are the poor. The ones this country declares the poor are mostly the ones who have a place to lay thier head each night, and are able to work but don’t want to, yes lazy. Those in my book are not poor but a parasite on all. As for Iran, well I feel for the people who just want to live work and persue a destiny, but the country as a whole has put into power men of madness, and now are reaping the rewards, as wel will soon enough. I dought if we could actually find an honest person in Washington today or for that matter ever in the history of this country. Sad, but it is true, dishonesty is a survival word once in position as an elected official. I could go on but will not.Have a great God Day.
foreverblessed, you have now reached a point where you are making no sense what so ever. Only trying to accuse me of something I have not said nor implied.
I have not spoken of being for or against any political party. Though I suppose because I am not decieved by Obama’s smooth rhetoric I am now demonized as being for the rich. Just how rich do you think Obama is, when compaired to…say, me.
What is it that you are angry about? I have spoken out against, abortion,homosexuality,murder,lying,terrorisim,riotous behavior, to mention a few. How is that looked at as being for the rich and against the poor?
Here is a few “things” I do. I vote only for people who have the same or similar moral values as I. I hold a political office and have for 37 years. I have helped in the church community and continue to do so both financialy and with action. In order to help provide a better quality of life for everyone, and promote the Gospel. These is only a few “things” I do. I am not bragging only answering your sarcasim.
If I take what you have said to be your political view, then I would have to believe that you think, unless I am a Democrat and agree with their political agenda, that I am not “Right” with Christ.
Wow, what an accusation.
Steve
SFD.. sorry for making you angry. Did not mean to do that at all. I am not for any political party. Just see the whole realm you want to fix,if you want to fix something in your country, that is what I was trying to say.
Sorry for unsettling you. In no way am I angry, just concerned that only part of the things are being defended and not other things, like Mart said, the environment, and I added the poor.
This has been an interesting conversation, discussion, debate, argument, much like a family expressing themselves in a passionate concern for their beliefs and their love of Christ. Just a few verses from His Word for us to chew on:
Mark 12:30-31 “And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself…”
Ephesians 4:15-16 “Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into Him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body…..”
Colossians 4:5-6 “Conduct yourselves wisely toward outsiders, making the best use of the time. Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt…”
John 13:34-35 “….love one another, just as I have loved you…..By this all people will know that you are my disciples….”
John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”
1Peter 4:16-19 “…..For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God…..”
Now a few personal thoughts:
We must never back down from standing for the truth, but we must be willing to suffer for the Name of Christ just as the apostles did without swords(except the Sword of the Spirit). Those whom God has called to run for an office in our government should themselves speak the truth in the love of Christ and attempt to persuade their colleagues much like William Wilberforce did by prayer, by perseverance, by reliance upon the power of the Holy Spirit. We are to encourage them realizing that our calling is to witness to the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ and to make disciples of all nations.
And finally can we all agree that we are to pray that His kingdom come as we await the trumpet call to meet the Lord in the air?
That’s an interesting take Mart. If this is the case, when then are we to take a stand? When and where, then do we start teaching homosexuality is wrong? No question about it, it does matter what we do to the reputation of Christ. Aren’t we as evangelicals in this together? How are we conservatives giving a wrong impression when we are defending the value’s that the country was founded on? I lost an uncle in WWII, and I will come across as patriotic (my dad was the youngest of 4 brothers in combat-the oldest didn’t come home) If we are to be friends of the Muslim countries, how do you think they view our gay parades etc. Don’t you think they view us as Sodom and Gomorah? This isn’t political nor is it personal. I have submitted legitimate questions. I do not see how the conservative cause has given God a bad name by defending the biblical values. We don’t want to be known as a heathen nation where anything goes, do we?
I have found something very useful in this exercise. This discussion brings to surface my feelings and thoughts on various issues. Once they are acknowledged, God through the Holy Spirit has the opportunity to address them with me and bring them into His light. A lot of issues that I accept as being according to my Christian slant are at times biased by my personal slant. This discussion has given me the opportunity to check my personal or Christian slant with the absolute truth and reality of God.
I am wondering……
if maybe we are looking at this in the wrong way. That maybe we should, instead of coming together as a “visible” group (a Christian movement) to lobby against sensitive issues which are questionable in the Biblical sense to instead maybe come together as a group in a quiet way. By this I mean that is it possible that we could accomplish the same result if we say had weekly prayer meetings (in churches or private homes) and started individual letter writing campaigns stating our objections. This group wouldn’t be so in-your-face in the world’s eyes. We all know that where two or more are gathered together in prayer that GOD will hear…maybe that is what HE is waiting for. Maybe there is too much visual action and not enough prayer action. And the government would still be bombarded by all the letters from each and every Christian. This can be applied to any country, not just the USA. Do I make any sense?
It’s just that I remember years ago, there were days set aside by the Christian movement to specifically pray for government, the politicians and what issues were on the table…National Days of Prayer?? What would happen if all Christians citizens were to gather -time zones adjusted – and cry out to GOD at the same time on issues such as gay rights or legalized abortion or …….
Oh bother, I fear I am not making any sense. I am sorry, but just in case one of you out there can figure out what I am trying to say, I will post this. Feel free to run with it and clarify. :-)
To SFD… sorry that I did make you angry, I want to add that I in no way was saying that you are for the rich, but I was trying to make clear to any of you who are so for a certain party, to see that this party has high morals on many issues, but if you look closely, they are only for those issues that do not cost the rich much money.
And that does not mean I am for the other party. I was saying in an earlier post, they all serve mammon.
Mart:
“…Seems to me that we’ve had enough time now to see what happens when evangelicals become known for trying to organize themselves politically against the values and spirit of the age…”
Just because we fail at attempting to live out our faith in the political arena… should we stop trying to live our witness? Shouldn’t we live as christians in all areas of life?
“…The result is that two sides end up angry thinking “the other side is taking away our country…”
Seems to me that is their failure but not necessarily an absolute outcome. If they lived their christian witness to the fullest, they wouldnt ‘get angry, lose their tempers and resort to name calling or other such belittling behaviors.’
“…In the middle of it all, our Lord calls us to a kingdom of the heart that does not move ahead by the power of the sword or ballot box, but rather by the Spirit of Christ…”
I agree totally with you on this…except that I see the use of ’sword or ballot box’ as a result of changes in the heart caused by the Spirit of Christ in its truest sense. We need to standup for our beliefs by voting our christian conscience and ‘buckling on the sword’ to defend the defenseless.
“…more than a few of us have earned the reputation for being hawks for war, who trash the environment, while boasting that we’ll soon “be out of here”… all the while fighting for our own legal rights, and amassing our own personal wealth, and fighting to keep our taxes… because…. because, “we’ll soon be out of here to live with Christ forever…”
Do I detect a note of ‘frustration’? I think those who fall into this category are also frustrated. They are operating ‘initially’ in the spirit, perhaps, and later in their own strength…hence the flesh is responding with weakness. (defending legal rights?…amassing wealth?…nothing wrong with that in the bible unless it becomes a replacement for God.) However, the attitude of ‘I am outa here, soon’ sounds like the ever invasive ‘ME’ talking.
Martin, I dont exactly know how to say this. The fact that you find this frustrating shows that you are cut from the same cloth as everyone else. We all fail. We become sick to heart that the world is sinking into the ‘mire’ of sin.
Even the ‘evangelicals’ when attempting to live out their faith become entangled in the ‘political muck’, come away ‘bloodied’ and even ’soiled’ in the process. But, I must give them credit for their efforts. Afterall, we live in this country and should ‘play by its rules’ so long as it doesnt contradict God’s.
Changing this country or returning it to its original values will take effort at all levels. There are many more fundamental christians out there than we are led to believe. Unfortunately, we have remained a silent majority.
Perhaps it is time (to quote a famous movie) for us to stick our heads out the window and say …
“…I am not gonna take it anymore!”
Better yet, sing with me…
“Stand Up, Stand Up for Jesus!”
Huggs
frank
Jing,
If we could sit down and talk about this, I think we could agree that, according to the New Testament, our convictions need to first show up in our own behavior before God, and then in the way we hold one another (within the Body of Christ) accountable to our shared moral principles (2Tim 2:19).
Such moral priorities of conviction are necessary for the credibility we need to then reason for public policies that will be good for our nation and supported by national consensus.
The New Testament, however, does not encourage us to treat our nation as if it were the church. (1Cor 5:9-10).
And the social conservatives I’m referring to are not a church renewal movement (and not even individual Christians who are committed to conservative moral principles) but are primarily evangelical church people who are trying to forge political alliances in an attempt to populate the Supreme Court with conservative justices and to establish public policy in a way that is consistent with biblical principle.
The problem with this approach is that it uses “carnal weapons” (i.e. cutthroat political campaigns) to achieve “carnal results” (i.e. temporary,backlash-producing political gains/or losses) (1Cor 10:4).
That, I believe, is a misuse of the name of Christ.
Our calling is to build the church into a fellowship for all who believe that Christ alone died for our sins, rose bodily from the dead to prove it, and sent his Spirit to enable us to live out the attitudes of Christ.
In addition, I believe that our convictions need to include what the history of the nation of Israel shows– that moral laws do not change hearts…
Frank, yes we need to live out our faith in Christ in all areas of life– which means giving Christ control of our own hearts… while not trying to control anyone else…
Proverbs 21:1 reminds us that:
“The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whitersoever he will.”
II Chron. 7:14 “If my people which are called by my name will humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”
It’s so easy to forget to pray for America and its leaders. It’s easier to bash the leaders–especially when they aren’t associated with the political party we identify with. . . All of your comments have helped everyone to remember to fervently pray for America and its leaders each day.
God is in control. He knows what is best–even if we don’t like what is best ;) Sometimes He gives us what WE want–scary thought(!) Sometimes He may give us what we deserve. Aren’t you thankful that we are citizens of a country not made with hands? We can trust our Lord–He is honored when we trust Him and not men. Easier said than done. My head isn’t in the sand. I can’t stand to watch the news many evenings. ha.
God is always good. Always. His mercy is great.
foreverblessed, I am not angry, We are ok. Be at peace my friend.
Steve
In this “good conversation” my spirit is in complete agreement with Mart (except for the environment part) and carlj.
Frank, Jing, Steve, let me first assure you that whatever each one of you has shared here… your passionate zeal to stand for the truth and to lift up Christ to the world exactly resonates with my own heart. However, here are some of my questions to you with much love and respect… not to accuse but to make us all think according to the Bible.
Steve, Jesus never told us “to create a society of people who’s intentions are to lift up the Christ to the world as “One Nation Under God”?” did He? This country is a democracy and Jesus Himself did not try to create a society with His own nation that had existed as a Theocracy. In fact, He rejected both the devil’s offer to rule the world and the Jews offer to lead their nation as their King (Jn 6:15)… because His purpose was to create and establish a Kingdom which is not of this world.
God is Himself creating that “society”-The Church (2 Cor 6:18) who lift up Christ (Eph 4:22-24) and are a light of God’s holiness in this dark and sinful world. That was exactly what I’d meant about the Nazarite… which you had dismissed as me trying to be perfect. It is not in the world but in the church where we have a responsibility to our children.
Steve, it is for the church we cry out for God to place good people in places of authority to block evil. It is as the Church we stand firm for the truth to resist the attacks of the devil. The enemy is not attacking the world that is obediently following its lies. It is the church which is the enemy of the world and it is the church… not the USA that Jesus will rapture before tribulation falls on the nations of this world.
The problems you face as a country are here because good people in church did nothing when they should have. Instead of the church transforming the culture, you have allowed the culture outside to influence the church. What kind of disciples do we make if we do nothing, in church but talk? So Steve, with the new life that He gave you, God will ask you what you have done for… not the USA but His Kingdom.
Will you tell the Christ that I did nothing while millions of innocents were murdered for the convenience of their parents that are struggling with teen-pregnancies, substance abuse, and divorce, right inside the church because the parents were never taught the truth? Will you tell Him that when Satan tried to influence our children in church with, drugs, alcohol, porn and crime, I sat idle while waiting for someone else to speak up?
Steve, the kingdom is the Father’s business and He will surely take an account of the talents which He has given us to invest not in the vote for this country but in the building up of His Country.
Jing, if we were not always teaching already… then it is right now in the church is where we should start teaching homosexuality is wrong. The Bible does not have the words “conservatives” and “liberals”. It is the church where all Christians world-wide are in this together to defend the values that God’s Heavenly Country is founded on.
“If we are to be friends of the Muslim countries, how do you think they view our gay parades etc.” and how do you think we view their loose morals of hypocritical drinking and prostitution and even with their legally recognized polygamous life style, they enjoy illicit sex behind closed doors and if caught, it is always the woman who is subjected to publicly being whipped and stoned to death. Friendship with Muslims is to share the liberating truth of the Gospel with the love of Christ… nothing more and nothing less than that.
Sodom and Gomorah? That is exactly what I was told by the church back home when I first came to this country. It took quite some effort on my part to convince family and friends that they need not worry… as I live and move among God-fearing Christians at church who love God and His righteousness just like them. The image your media has been projecting to the world around cannot be compared to even the worst of those heathen nations. Not that the abominations of those heathen nations are any less… there it is all hidden and here it is blatant.
It is much more comfortable for us Evangelicals to conserve truth by speaking out against the sins of the nation, and remain conveniently closed mouthed rather virtually silent when it comes to confronting our own sins within the Church, isn’t it?
And Tony, you have said it best and it was high time someone opened this can of worms. Mart somehow had the boldness to do it… well not somehow but it is certainly the work of the Holy Spirit. You say you are thankful to live in a country where you can express your thoughts, ideas and preferences without fear of retaliation.
Let me tell you Tony with all due respect, for most part of my life I grew up in the largest Democracy in this world and right within its pagan majority, the amount of freedom I had enjoyed to express my faith in Christ is something which even in my wildest imaginations I am not able to enjoy here in this country.
speak out against sin? That was how it was in this great nation some 40-60 or even some 100 years ago. Whereas today, even without fear of facing jail time the message coming out from most of the churches reek with an unhealthy sugary sweet, free grace garbage and easy believism that says “come as you are from the world, stay just as you are in the church because the father’s business is all about serving the poor and oppressed with the right attitude”
And Frank, yes changing the church in this country or returning it to its original values will take effort at all levels. Jesus said “I pray not for the world, but only those you have given me”. So, phpatato I hear you, prayer is needed… much needed more than ever right now…
When the church everywhere else is laying down its very life to defend its testimony of being witnesses of God’s truth it is painfully shocking to see the church here already numbed into a deadly stupor and so wrapped up into the affairs of the world… for carelessly having allowed the enemy to gain entry into the house of God and wreak havoc and confusion with all kinds of divisive thinking typical of a Carnal Christianity…
…that has compromised with the world to fragment the church with its unholy entanglement with politics (aside: foreverblessed, you are right), environment, health care and every other issue that was never our business in the first place, while the business of the Father to love and rescue lost souls lies unattended… just some of my pensive thoughts…
On second thoughts… I’m thinking maybe this hate crime laws may turn out for the good… when at one point “true Christians” that worship God in spirit and truth would be a helpless minority group that may need protection from its godless masses! Maybe this is stretching it too far, but then, who has known the mind and wisdom of God or seen the sovereign hand of God as it moves among peoples, countries and their governments?!
Mart and all, let me thank you for your patience being such a gracious host of this blog. I have really enjoyed it. You are superb moderator as well as referee. (smle) I think I will finalize my thoughts and views on this posting though. I agree on your points in the last post Mart ” our convictions need to first show up in our own behavior before God, and then in the way we hold one another (within the Body of Christ) accountable to our shared moral principles” wholeheartedly. I do strongly disagree with you on your take on the social conservatives. If fact, I’m quite shocked in your idealology but we are all individuals with our own minds and we are all entitled to our opinions. At least we know how the other stands. Thank you so much Mart for your tolerance of me once again. It is so deep instilled in me when I picture my uncle falling on the hills of Normandy and 3 younger brothers getting the word but continued to fight, that I feel I must uphold the ideals and greatness which our fathers fought for. Trully this is a great country. I pray we have the same commitment to keep this country free. I suppose as a soldier of Christ I can say “I will live to fight another day”. But, aside from my commitment to this country, I have a far greater obligation and mission that comes ahead of family and country. My commitment to Christ. So I close thanking all for their patience in my participation with Romans 8:38-39 “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” Sincerely for Christ, Jing
Jing, it is a pleasure to see you participate in this blog. Personally, I have been always blessed by your posts. Hope, my words did not offend you. Thank you for sharing the beautiful testimony of your parents. I’m sure it will encourage all women out there that struggle with abuse… to stand for the truth and persevere in prayer for their alcoholic husbands and not give in to divorce that wrecks homes and forces innocent children out into the streets. Keep posting whenever you find time!
Seems to me that it is not what we are defending when it comes to God, but how we are defending an issue. It is all in our attitude. Our heart attitude. Everything that we do, or say, should have the attitude of Christ shine through. We need to approach the opposition with love, calmness, gentleness, and if called for, turning the other cheek. And believing and trusting that Jesus is right beside us and guiding us in what we are doing and saying.
When we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, then God takes over, and does His work on our heart. He wants to instill the fruits of the Holy Spirit within us. One at a time. Some we will resist, but God will be back to try again. And why does God want to instill the fruits of the Holy Spirit within us? He does so, that we may become that more holy person that He wants us to be. It is when we turn that more holy person that God wants us to be, into a more holier than thou person, that we get into trouble. We take our heart from Gods’ control, and take it over with our control. Our attitude in what we are defending becomes me. What I want. Wants to control. Fills with anger and frustration. That gets us in trouble. That lets others see us as arrogant and pushy, demanding, never wrong, always right. And that does nothing but chase the unbeliever away, and gives the Christian a bad reputation. Truth without grace. It is dangerous. But more dangerous is grace without truth. That leads to sin in our lives believing that it is okay because God loves us so much.
Yes, we must remember that God, no matter what is going on in our lives or the world, He, is always in control. God is the one that allows or disallows things that happen in our lives, and in the world. And we should never question why or for what, His reasons. But to know, that His reasons are always what is good for us, what is best. Sometimes it doesn’t feel that way, but in the end it is what is right for us.
Yes, when someone or an issue is going against what is right in Gods’ eyes, we need to stand up and say what we know and feel is right. But in a calm and gentle and loving manner. If we start arguing, and become frustrated and fighting, then we are not standing up for what is right in Gods’ eyes in the right way. The way He wants us to. We have let anger and hate into our heart. God doesn’t want us to do that. With Jesus we can move mountains….yes we can. But not by yelling and screaming, and letting turmoil and strife take over our hearts. We can do so with prayer. Some preachers will say “let’s take a moment and bow our heads in silent prayer.” We should never forget, that prayer is NOT silent. God hears our prayers, and all our prayers at once. If we let ourselves just imagine that in our hearts, wow, millions of prayers all at once, God hears. And he wants us to pray. To cry out for Him. When we pray it brings us right in front of God. Can you imagine millions and millions of prayers going out all at once to God, and all of us are brought right before Him right then. How wonderful that is.
Phpatato: Your post made so much sense. God Bless you.
Daisy: as always, your posts fill my heart. Gives me such good thinking with the Lord.
And please everyone. I have read all your posts, and have learned much. My post here is not directed at any of you here. They are simply just my thoughts directed to the turmoil and anger in the world. I am a follower of Christ. I am not perfect. I get lost sometimes. And when I do, I find my way quickly back to Him.
In God’s love to all of you.
DMG:
This would be so much easier if we didnt have to ‘read’ each others’ words without the benefit of facial expression, voice, tone and inflection.
I am afraid you mis-quoted me though… I did not say as you wrote…changing the church in this country… returning it (church) to its original values…
I wrote instead …
“Changing this COUNTRY or returning it to its original values will take effort at all levels. There are many more fundamental christians out there than we are led to believe. Unfortunately, we have remained a silent majority.”
Also, while I am not an authority on the church around the world… I think you exaggerate ‘just a little’ with your statement…
“When the church everywhere else is laying down its very life to defend its testimony of being witnesses of God’s truth it is painfully shocking to see the church here already numbed into a deadly stupor and so wrapped up into the affairs of the world…”
Everywhere else except in America you see this???
When was the last time christians were slain in Britain? Spain? Italy? Germany? France? Belgium? Switzerland? Mexico? Canada?…
Daisy, I agree that american’s have it comparatively easy compared to most of the world. Have you ever asked yourself Why?
Could it be that our founders and several generations after made a sincere effort to include GOD in their lives… that great men such as Abraham Lincoln dedicated themselves to living out their beliefs not just in family and church but in public life?
(ever wonder why an unknown, unlikely, failed politician like Lincoln won 2 terms as president during the time this nation most needed his caliber?)
Of all the countries in the world can you name another that set up its govt on the basis that ‘all are created equal UNDER GOD’. I dont doubt that we have strayed… we have allowed ourselves to be lulled into sleep, distracted by prosperity, wealth, power and an abundance of natural resources. HOWEVER…
God is Faithful. God is Mercy. God is Love. God is Power and Victory. (and if you dont believe that God is concerned for the WORLD… and not just the church read John 3:16-18)
When ANY person or people recognize HIM and dedicate themselves to HIM (not by word alone but in deeds) God steps in to balance the scale.
We have all stated the obvious, here. But, perhaps we have overlooked the first verses of Paul’s Love Chapter in 2 Cor.
As I look back on our posts, each of us makes sense but somehow in our zeal we begin to sound too much like the ‘clanging cymbals’.
Mart:
perhaps we needed to ask a simple question early on after your initial post?
Define for us your use of the term ‘evangelical’?
I mistakenly thought you were talking about the ’sleeping giant’ of fundamental christians who had been silent all these years and allowed someone else to do their thinking and governing.
We wrongly placed our faith in mankind. We turned to them for political leadership. We turned to them for economic security. We turned to them to educate us and our children. We turned to them for healing arts.
And worst of all, we turned to them to lead us on worship… defining theology… ethics… morality and issues for which each of us has to take responsibility.
There lies the seed of all turmoil. Each person must assume responsibility for his/her own actions. For one day, perhaps in this world, most certainly in the next, each of us will stand before Our Creator and give account. (yes, DMG, we see eye to eye on this point)
Perhaps not as Daisy would have us believe in a wide and far-reaching domain, I believe it will be more personal and private. I believe that the mission field we serve in is all around us…butcher, baker, candlestick-maker, the neighbor, the missionary who speaks at our church and we find an extra nickel, dime or $50 that the Lord lays on our heart… the child we sponsor in Indonesia, the youth group we send to Bolivia, the Vacation Bible School we support with our prayers,time,cash, or cookies.
Dear Friends, DO NOT LOSE HEART. DO NOT TURN A DEAF EAR OR EYE AND WORST OF ALL TURN AWAY. RATHER, IF YOU CAN DO NOTHING ELSE…PRAY.
God Bless You All!
and God Bless these United States of America!
Huggs
frank
Let’s look at the values of our Leader and compare them to the way we present our values when we become an outspoken supporter of “conservative” positions:
Our Leader commanded us to turn the other cheek, yet we oppose gun regulations.
Our Leader told us that hate is equal to murder, yet we oppose a bill expressing opposition to hate.
Our Leader was the Great Physician, yet we oppose universal healthcare.
Our Leader requires us to love our enemies, yet we support a hawkish foreign policy.
Our Leader came for the least of these, yet we support tax policies that benefit the greatest of these.
Our Leader came for the worst sinners, yet we support the execution of criminals.
Our Leader befriended the Samaritan woman, yet we support the deportation of immigrants.
Our Leader said he cares about a sparrow that falls to the ground, yet we oppose regulations intended to save other creatures.
Uncertain:
sorta depends on how you define each of the words in each of the statements…
for example: oppose gun regulations… what do the regulations require? registration? surrender? destruction? illegal weapons?
how about deportation of immigrants… legal immigrants? that would include just about everyone save native american indians… does legal mean anything?
Would you support universal health care if it ‘all costs’ came out of your pocket? If the quality of care or the ‘rationing’ of care became an issue?
Jesus also said,”If your eye offends you…pluck it out; if your hand offends you… cut it off!” wanna try that one?
and this thing about the sparrow… hmmmm, how does that figure for universal health care that performs abortions? hmmmm?
If this stuff were easy, it would be easy to solve.
Huggs
frank
Frank, thanks for the comment and the Qs but I certainly do not want you to lose sleep over all of this, OK? This is mere conversation and its main intention is not to hurt each other or play with our raw emotions but to simply provoke us to think….
No. I did not misquote you. I simply repeated your statement by deliberately adding church… which means… for you maybe it is the country but for me it is the church in this country that needs a revival…to change and be restored to its original values.
Frank, sometimes when I look at the patriotic fervor ringing out of the comments on this blog, it just makes me smile… I really wished if you were equally on fire for the Kingdom of God. Every one has a rich national heritage to talk about, don’t we? for some of us it even dates back to 4000 years or so but all of us do not boast because excessive patriotism is also idolatry.
Good for you and for this “One Nation Under God” founded by great men who publicly stood for God. God has certainly blessed you for that… not just materialistically but even spiritually… You do have the best Pastors and Bible teachers and personally, I envy the wealth of resources that is at your disposal to help you grow in faith.
How then did you allow yourself to be lulled into sleep? But then not everyone is asleep in this nation. Let us never forget though, to thank God for the faithful remnant right here in this country… and their tearful intercessions for not just this country but for God’s people living in every other country in this world.
It all started out with those countries you have listed and has reached this land and from here it will soon turn into a widespread phenomenon to spread to other lands as well such that “When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?” (Luke 18:8).
Yes Frank I see John 3: 16 which states that God is concerned for not just the USA but for the world so that “whoever believes” and the “whoever” is the Church… Remember, all of Israel will be saved i.e. “all” of believing Israel. Similarly all of America will be saved i.e. “all” of believing America that belong to Christ.
Ps 67 is my prayer to seek God’s blessings for all the nations of this world! With lots of smiles and hugs…
Again thanks to all of you for helping us to think this through. You have done such a good job at beginning the conversation from all sides that I’m going to let it continue as we send out an update to our large e-mail list inviting them to check in today on the subject. I’m hoping all who stop by will feel welcome to listen and/or join in with the same spirit you’ve expressed to one another– even in the middle of some very painful and tough issues. My plan is to post another subject on Fri or Sat morning.
Uncertain, your list is provocative– to say the least. Thanks.
Jing, from the “other side of the same table” you likewise have added a lot and am sure that your story will resonate with many– and your spirit with all of us
daisymarygoldr, your commitment to the Kingdom of God is expressed so well. Somehow those of us who share your priority need to find a way to show that we are “good for the neighborhood” in the process.
There is so much to say and so little space.
Make no mistake, Christ first in all matters. However who among us here in this blog do nothing else?
What kind of disciple would we be if we all just stood idle and allowed the enemy to do whatever he wished?
Christ, had a different purpose than we His disciples. He explained that to the original 13.
Christ came to fulfill exactly what God had said would happen to the Messiah. Be cut off and sacrificed, one for all.
Nothing could interfere with this, Jesus told this to Pilate. His followers as well as all the Angels were prevented from stoping the cruxifiction.
Jesus told the disciples to go and make disciples in all the nations.
The whole of scripture gives example of what happens to nations that do not follow God and abandon Him for other Gods. They fail they fall they disappear. They suffer.
What is the use and purpose of we making disciples of all men unless we have a love for our brothers and sisters? Do we make disciples so that we can brag of the number of souls we led to Christ?
Or is it because of love? If you love your neighbors as Jesus instructed us to do. Then that love makes us want for the very best to happen for them. What could be better than becoming as we, saved for eternity from sin and judgement.
The nation we live in is all made up of our brothers and sisters, I love all my family. I am concerned for all my family and want none to be lost or suffer needlessly.
So when one or any within my family stray away from following God, I must tell them of their err and warn them of the consiquence. If I didn’t, how could I say I loved them?
Because I love my countrymen and do not want them to suffer the consiquence of embracing sin. Does not make me an idol worshiper, as Daisy thinks. I love and so do not want these my brothers and sisters to suffer.
If I do not warn them, I am guilty of not loving them.
No matter how any of you want to twist the truth, the fact is that abortion,and homosexuality are sins.
The people we elect to office are the policy makers and as leaders they steer the nation toward a goal.
The current President and the majority of his political party leaders have embraced a policy of accepting abortion and homosexuality as a civil right.
Since I see both as sin, and I see these leaders as steering my national family away from God and toward the goals of Satan. I must warn them of their error.
As Paul told King Agrippa,” I would to God, that not only thou, but all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am,”
I would equally hope that the leaders of my nation family were as I, Christian.
Steve
So many thoughts to think about, I want to go on with this one from dmg:
On second thoughts… I’m thinking maybe this hate crime laws may turn out for the good… when at one point “true Christians” that worship God in spirit and truth would be a helpless minority group that may need protection from its godless masses! Maybe this is stretching it too far, but then, who has known the mind and wisdom of God or seen the sovereign hand of God as it moves among peoples, countries and their governments?!
The christians were very devoted to God the first few centuries, when they were severely persecuted. Everyone who became a christian knew it was serious business. When Constantine made the church a government church, things did not improve for that church.
(there are many countries today where christians are persecuted, not in the western world yet)
Persecution purifies. Do not dread it.
Let me continue in James 5 (that sounds like a preacher)
7Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains. 8You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9Don’t grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!
10Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.
I liked this one: not to grumble against each other.
Mart began this topic by quoting John 17:21, yhat His people would be “one”.
Nowonder it was His prayer, because it would seem we only agree on “one” thing. Saddly there are groups of people who would disagree with even that “one” thing.
Who Jesus is.
Our little gathering of believers here on this blog are challanged with sharing our thoughts and feelings on a wide variety of subjects.
Sorry, we are never “one”, in our opinions.
So what does that say? Are we His? Are we all wrong? Can we still have have differing opinions and be seen as a common group of believers?
Many who share here are disillusioned with church and longing for fellowship, seek fellowship here.
That’s fine, however, the structure of church has a leadership ordained by God, to be in authority over the church.
It starts with Christ, yes, but comes down to having a pastor and elders to help lead the congregation through matters of spiritual discernment.
Whereas it is true we all must make up our own minds about spiritual matters, it helps greatly to have people who have either matured or grown spiritually above our own state to aid us in our struggles to understand better.
The best known church in the world is the Catholic church. What is the official attitude and position of this church concerning abortion and homosexuality?
What then of the wide variety of Protestant churches? What is their official position? Hard to get a concensus from such a fractured and splintered group, isn’t it.
So, who is it that are “one”? I would guess that we all think is it ourselves.
Satan is the author of confusion. Is there confusion in the Church? Will you be decieved by his light, or led by the Holy Spirit?
You all choose, I already have.
Wonderful post and thread, Mart!
I too am much concerned over what we as evangelicals are doing in this nation. I have to be careful because I don’t see eye to eye quite often on the issues themselves, because I see them as in the realm of the state and the world, and not within the church, as you say. And most important, what are we here for anyhow, and where does our identity ultimately lie?
You state so many things in here, and so well. I wish I could read every comment, but I most heartily concur with you, Mart.
Thanks!
DMG:
I think you need to look up what ‘misquote’ means…
“…No. I did not misquote you. I simply repeated your statement by deliberately adding church…”
Daisy, I really am not losing sleep over this… I just happen to live in a different time zone. However, I am not one to throw out words without thinking thru their meaning and weighing their impact. (I used to behave that way, but found it was devious and hurtful and only caused more confusion. ie. it is of satan)
foreverblessed:
I see your point and must congratulate you on bringing it to the table. I find myself ’stepping back’ and taking in the whole picture as I imagine God sees it. I truly wonder how much longer before we will see the days of Tribulation begin.
Can we carry the premise a step farther?
Ever wonder if we are delaying the inevitable? What would have happened if, as some here have suggested, we gave little attention to defending freedom around the world?
What kind of world would it be if Americans had not joined the fight in WWII?
Would Christ have returned by now if Hitler dominated the world with his Third Reich? or would the body of Christ be stronger for having been persecuted?
What would Hitler’s church look like(he did have the support of catholic clergy in Germany)?
Perhaps we are living in this time because ‘we’ refused to lay down our lives as Christ did and chose to ‘pick up the sword’?
Any comments?
Huggs
frank
I had to make sure that I was on a Christian blog. Seems as if hatred against our President shows up even on a blog that is supposed to be about Christian love and acceptance. In spite of what we may think about our President, his stand on homosexuality, gay marriage, abortion, God loves them as well, shouldn’t we? We all have to go by way of the Cross and we should be very careful how we judge others.
wjb,
Sad but true. It sort of resembles our church today. There are those that have touched their toe in the pool of following Christ, some have gone up to the knee, some that have one foot in the pool and one in the world, some that have dived into the pool but have all kinds of floating devices on. There are those that have jumped in yet go back out because of all the fusing and fighting in the pool. There are those who have jumped in yet struggle to stay afloat, there are yet others who tell everyone how to get in, out and what to do and how to do it. Then you have those that jump in and just rest in the loving water and follow the direction of the owner of the pool. It takes all kinds but God doesn’t give up on teaching us how to swim some just learn easier than others.
WJB
Again as Steve was quoted earlier as saying….(paraphrased) Just because we take a stand AGAINST sin doesn’t mean we don’t love the sinner. That idea seems to come hand in hand somehow….hate the sin means hating the sinner.
Yes Frank….Stand up, stand up for Jesus.
P.S. Frank
Canada is another country in the world that, like the US, had Godly founding forefathers that placed God at it’s foundation. Like the US, we too have removed him from our schools, government and workplaces. This has NOT gone unnoticed by God and He will, in my opinion, bring both countries to it’s knees for that.
Also, I have noticed just how patriotic you are. As an army brat, I wish that Canadians were even half as much.
God Bless You All
HIM…It bothers me that as fast as I was typing, I erred in not capitalizing His name.
Paul also had deep love and concern for his natural kinsmen, fellow countrymen and nation family- the Israelites but in obedience to God’s call Paul reached cross-culturally to preach to the Gentiles. If Paul or the other Apostles had disobeyed… to not rise above national barriers, today the world would not have known the Good News of Christ. King Agrippa was not an Israeli King.
So, Steve we should have a burden for our own countrymen but the call of a disciple of Christ extends much beyond that. The Physical blessings/curse to nations in OT applies to us spiritually, not literally. Jesus was no political or governmental figure and neither did He promise Christians any land, country or nation here on this earth. A Christian’s patriotism is always for that Heavenly country which father Abraham saw and looked forward to by his spiritual eyes of faith. Had he been mindful of his own country to not sever his patriotic ties with the land of his fathers, he would have always gone back only to lose God’s eternal promises for Him in Christ (Heb 11)!
A follower of Christ must seek to overcome carnal issues of the flesh relating to political, racial, ethnic, cultural, economic, linguistic, denominational and national barriers… and carnal things are idols that divide and distract us from our devotion to God. Yesterday, Britain was the great nation, today you see this as the great nation and tomorrow the Chinese will claim themselves to be the great nation.
But you know what? Ultimately it will be those that belong to the spiritual Kingdom of God that will stand to be the greatest nation for ever (Dan 2:44). It is only when we walk in the Spirit we unite together in the love of Christ to become “one” and eliminate these dividing walls within the universal Body of Christ which is made of people who are called out of every nation in this world. I don’t know about you, but I know the nation I belong to and fight for with the sword of the Spirit!
Frank, my sincere apologies on “misquote”… not sure how you saw it but my intention was purely to add to what you said… not to repeat or twist it out of context and change the entire meaning. Maybe I should have placed church within parentheses…. I don’t know… but please forgive a non-English speaking sinner! And lose sleep was not about time zones… recalling the “Sakoieta exchanges” it was out of concern for you, I’d said that these discussions should not disturb your sleep as we are very well aware of the enemy’s schemes to play with our raw emotions. You are not my enemy and neither should you or Steve see me as one:)
Also, since I’m not well versed with American politics… in fact politics in general is not my cup of tea, Frank, please help me understand this better… about this country that set up its government on ‘all are created equal UNDER GOD’. Doesn’t the hate crime bill add to that foundational law? What if Matthew Shepard was one of our own children? Would we still fight against its legislation? Just some honest Qs…
I have been reading this blog for sometime. It bothers me to see such division when it isn’t necessary.
Personally, I would have to know more about the “hate crime” legislation. It seems that we may not have the full picture or wording of the bill and yet we are giving opinions. Frank, you seem to have knowledge of how it is trying to be passed. Would you mind giving me the site so that I may read the bill myself? I would not like to see pastors jailed for preaching against sin, if those are the facts.
It also seems to me as a viewer of the blog that comments are not carefully read nor quoted which causes confusion and condemnation of others. I also have not read that anybody hates the sinners, only the sins. I have not read that anyone voicing the “hate” toward the president, only disagree with him.
As a “tender” Christian, I have been very confused and disheartened by what I have been reading and understanding from this particular blog. I see some people that are very firm and forthcoming in their convictions and some that blow with the wind.
I am grateful everyday that God is my judge and not human emotions and opinions. I will continue viewing but this time, I had to voice my thoughts. It seems people are stirred up without knowing all the facts. The bigger picture is in God’s hands. I truly believe there is a love among the bloggers but sometimes there is the clanging of cymbals as was commented earlier.
Unite as “one” in the Lord Jesus Christ that died for all sinners no matter what the sin.
There is a time to pick up the sword. God sent the Israelites into battle a lot (OT) and the men with hearts for God inquired of God before war.
I like 2 Samuel 5:19-25 (NKJ) when King David asked the Lord “Shall I go…?” and “the Lord said to David,…” so we see intense relationship of a person and conversation with God about war, patriotism. Ecclesiastes 3 covers the “everything there is a season and time for every purpose” theme. We must inquire of God for these “everythings” for us.
A time for politics. Politics is defined as choosing sides. Many know in Revelation 3:15 (NKJ) in the letters to the churches, the Jesus’ pungent warning “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.” I examine myself and test myself to determine if I’m hot or cold about the politics or side-taking in the U.S.
The cold or hot is whether I take a side to serve myself or serve Jesus. What is to be seen by the world is how do I live out my decision? I want to serve Jesus, but I don’t want to act like a fool doing it. Sometimes I fail.
If the labeled “evangelicals” are taking a side (or stand) without “inquiring of God” and then obeying Him, they will put a basket over the Light. The results : Christians get the label of “fools.” And interestingly, another pungent scripture about fools, like Rev 3 –Proverbs 26-ll “As a dog returns…” Why did God use the v-word in those two instances???
I pray that our presidents, leaders, evangelicals, first ask God: “Shall I … ?”
and do as He answers. I pray for our current president to experience that passionate relationship with God.
When I “swore in” an oath for military service, years ago, it was God first, then country, family.
I love my Jesus. This blog is amazing!
Amazing creation gave me the gift of a family of deer crossing my driveway in the small town where I live, it was an awesome moment and made my day. Like the pup pictured I’d imagine their thoughts are of getting where they want to go safely. Where I too, want to go. God in His infinite wisdom has chosen Israel and its’ land for the ultimate warfare of this earth and earthly things. I believe the time is near and there is no changing the outcome. Jesus lives in us with our continued Love in God and His Word. Jesus went to prepare us a place in paradise. The word is true and paradise awaits us.
For those interested when I want to read any bills that come before the House or Senate I read about them on the US government website and then you can contact the folks that represent you and let them know how you would like them to vote on an issue. If you are unaware of who those folks are you can also find out that information.
I also belong to a group of people that speak up for global poverty and different pandemics. ONE.org
There are a lot of ways to have our Christian voice heard while still holding tight to our principles.
Wow, what a great discussion! Just a few cents worth of input. I can’t think of any example in Scripture where Jesus or any follower actually interferred with politics. I have my doubts about most “Christian activism”. Do we stand up for Scripture? Yes. Do we stand up for God’s moral values? Yes. (BTW, as far as legislating morality, the laws of this land or any other country, are the result of SOMEONE’S moral stand). I see no evidence whatsoever that Jesus or His followers ever tried to change the Roman laws or system, or even move against them.
As for sin, Scripture tells us that we are to judge sin, not the sinner. Judging a person is not our job. However, we can judge his sin, can we not? We can do this by lining up what a person DOES with Scripture and the moral laws of God. He has not changed them. As for the person, we are to love that person as God does. No easy task to love some folks! :-) Sometimes we can only allow God to love them THROUGH us.
And last but not least, sin is sin in God’s sight. God hates all sin. We tend to pick out a few sins that are worse than others. This is not so. When God looks down on this planet the mountains of sin must look about the same height and not one is “higher” than another. Photos of the earth from the space station make mountains all look the same height. I can’t help but think that is God’s view too.
Thank God for His grace!
wjb
I have not made any comment since the weekend, but thanks for defending Barack Obama. It is so good not to have a Christian fundamentalist in the white house. No disrepect intended, but the evangelical christians in the USA are anti almost every idea that supports peoples rights to live their own life. Anti abortion(a woman has the right to determin what goes on in her own body). Anti gay People have the right to show love for one another(I myself do not practice but am only gay in my orientation, I can’t change that, only God can! See my previous comment) People are People, wether Tax collectors, Prostitutes, or fishermen. Living in west cornwall I meet alot of fishermen and believe me they are not saints. The only way a multi ethnic/cultural state can work is to be secular. We were horrified when the Iotallas(sorry for the spelling) took over Iran and would advocate, if not actively persue, a secular state for them. Please let your pressident get on with the job, sort out your ecconemy, which failed because of greed, and let him introduce legislation that will allow millions of your people to enjoy proper health care.
sorry if I spouted off there.
Love you lots
Bob
If Jesus had lived as an american, today- would he “vote” even? Mart- I would be so interested to hear this conversation in the context of the marriage and submission/authority converstaions. I think about everything in terms of relationships. What is our relationship to our government when our government is not supposedly in “power” but the people ARE the government. I’m just brainstorming and can’t find a way to express what is brewing inside me.
I been thinking…..
That it grieves my heart to see and hear,(not on this sight), the fear and hatred that is coming out of the mouths of the believers!! How are we to win the unsaved over if the only thing they see in us is discontent, division,unforgiveness, and hatred.
It seems that we have been more involved in politics than in soul winning. I’m not saying that believers should not be involved in the government; I believe that God will raise up people to take seats of authority in government; after all the government is upon His shoulders is it not.
When I have conversation with other believers and even as I’ve read many of the comments here; we act as if this is not our Father’s world. He is still in control. He is not asleep; He does not have a knee jerk reaction as if to say OOPS! my mistake!! Or I was on vacation when all of this was taking place.God is God and there is not other god (little g)greater. Did he not speak and the worlds were made? Is He not from everlasting to everlasting?
We must understand who we are and whose we are in Christ Jesus. None of the people in the seat of government authority has more power and authority than our God. Remember, “OUR GOD REIGNS”, and He is in the midst of us. I see what you see in the natural, but we are spirit; for if we live in the spirit we must walk in the spirit; if we live in the flesh we are ruled by the flesh. In the natural realm of life we are weakened and weary for the things that we see and experience around us and in our own lives; but Jesus said “be of good cheer for I have overcome the world”.
Let us make no mistake about sin. The soul that sins shall die; not just the homosexual (which is what some apparently believe) but every sinner, that is, the whoremonger, thief,liar,murderer,adulterer,idolater, and the list goes; but some of us may still be pratices some of these sins…so lets not just direct our fury at one sin while the others go unchallenged. I thank God for Jesus Christ because He died so that we could be free from the sins that held us in bondage. Those of us that believe in God; He gave us the power to refrain from sin. If we are in Christ Jesus, that old sin life has passed away and everything has become brand new; in other words we have no past; so if we are a new creation/creature in Christ Jesus why do we still practice our old sin life? (I been thinking).
It is my belief that if the people of God do the business of God we would not see what we are seeing and experiencing today in America. We should repent and cry out to a loving God who is full of tender mercies and ask Him to redeem us and He is faithful to do just that. Let each one of us examine our own selves to see where we need to be washed, cleansed and made whole again. I know that some of you have been injured and discouraged from the things happening in God’s church, in your families, on your jobs and just looking at the things happening in America, but God has NOT FORGOTTEN YOU; HE WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU NOR FORSAKE YOU. HE IS WAITING FOR US TO RETURN TO HIM IN REPENTANCE AND PRAYER. He will move on our behalf. Don’t you just love Him for He’s always faithful to us.
When we accepted the Lord we set ourselves up for a prey to the enemy of our souls so don’t think it strange when these fiery darts and trials come our way but God’s Divine power has given us everything that we need for life and for godliness. If you’ve gotten off you spot get back on it and if you’re on it stay on it’ I encourage each of us to stay focused and not be side swiped by the tricks of the enemy of our souls. Now is not the time for the Body of Christ to start shaking in our boots, but it is the time for us to put on the whole armor of God, to pray in the spirit always, to watch out for one another that we all will perservere and that we petition God for each other that we might be able to stand in the days ahead. For souls still need to be saved;folk still need to be delivered and set free (for we slay dragons and subdue kingdoms eveyday) and guess what, God is depending on us to be the sould winners of today.
The harvest is ripe; let us pray that the Lord of the harvest will give us the soul winning anointing so that we will be able to reap a great harvest of souls for Him. Pray that the power of the Holy Spirit will come upon us to be witnesses of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. God will confirm His Word by the signs following; (the sick healed, the dead raised to life, demons cast out, folk set free and delivered) I’m excited already!!
Be blessed today and always.
Amen and Amen