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Sit down with me as we think through some tough topics in a reflective way and examine some of the difficult issues that can trouble followers of Christ. My hope is that you’ll always come away with more to think about… RBC Ministries
A Christmas Discussion During Hanukkah
Posted by Mart De Haan
December 12th, 2009
Filed in Jesus, Social Issues
114 Comments »
Last night Jewish people began lighting candles around the world in their annual celebration of Hanukkah.
This morning an article in the Dallas Morning News says that two pastors of the Episcopal denomination are expected to draw hundreds, at 10 dollars a ticket, to their discussion of whether Christ is the only way to God.
One of the pastors will represent the conservative position and is described as “thoughtful and forthright but also respectful and gracious.”
The other pastor is also described as being “a very kind and devout Christian” who when asked by Time Magazine whether Jesus is the only way to God responded, “We who practice the Christian tradition understand him as our vehicle to the divine. But for us to assume that God could not act in other ways is, I think, to put God in an awfully small box.”
According to the article, the event is part of the church’s Distinguished Lecture Series and will allow audience participation after both pastors speak to the two issues of, “Who is Christ for me?” and “Who is Christ for the World.”
Here’s what I’m thinking and asking in this post:
My conviction: I have no deeper conviction than that, “while claiming to be the light of the world”, a Jewish Jesus did what no other person has ever done. He gave us every reason to believe that he is God’s ultimate Gift to the world, who, before returning to the Father, died for our sins, and rose from the dead to prove that he had come to bring all who would trust him to his Father.
My question: Would it be wonderful if this discussion in Dallas today could be held in an honest and gracious manner that allows both sides to make their best case, followed by questions and statements from people of different religious persuasions that were also posed with the utmost grace and respect?
Or, would it be better for followers of Christ, and those who disagree with us, to have an angry, brittle debate, that reveals how resentful that people on both sides are that “the other opinion” is even being heard?
Or, let me ask it this way. If you happen to bump into this blog as someone who doesn’t believe that Jesus is the only way to God, would you like your side to be represented by someone who posts snide, sarcastic, or insulting comments? Would that put your side in the best light?
And I’ll ask the same question of those of us who know that the Apostle John quotes Jesus as saying, “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but without coming through Me: (John 14:6). Would we feel affirmed and well-represented in our faith to see this discussion turn into a resentful “food fight” won by followers of Christ who make a stronger, angrier case for the only One who could claim to be “the light of the world”?
For better or worse what would we rather see: a civil, friendly opportunity for both sides to put our best case on the table for whether Jesus is the only way to God? Or free-wheeling, angry, disrespectful debate that shows how important and dangerous both sides consider this issue to be?
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Mart, The Walt Disney writers present a world of characters that always smile and sing and are even friendly when they are suppose to be angry.
But the world ain’t like that.
I will join with you in wanting people to be able to discuss their belief on whether there is another way to God, without it leading to anger…but, somewhere in the arguement it ends up either walking away or standing your ground.
Luke 22:42 “,Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine be done.”
If there was another way, Jesus of Nazareth would not have had to endure the cross.
To believe otherwise, makes His sacrifice unessesary.
Steve
Well said Steve.
Steve,, You got here before me,, I had trouble logging in. lol
There is only one way to The Father and as you said, Jesus would have never gone through with The Cross if there was another way. It is obvious the pain was even too great for our Lord, Messiah, to bear. (Remember He was on His own, His Father had to dis own Him in that moment, which must have been an eternity for both of them)
Now I still know God has not abandonded His people Israel, and like Joshua told the Gentiles to leave before he revealed himself to his brothers, Jesus will do the same (The Rapture) before revealing Himself to the Jews in the last days.
Even as we speak here many Jews are taking the Bible, both old and New Testaments and reading about their Messiah. Even those who are not interested are waiting for Messiah. I do feel God will accept someone who is seeking the Truth and looking towards Him for salvation (Messiah). Many Jews, as are Muslims, are told not to touch the Christian scriptures, on pain of excommunication or even death. I am sure God honours a seeking good and honest heart.
We must pray for these people, that God has mercy on them and speaks to their hearts.
It is good for people to discuss their own beliefs, but we must be careful not push our beliefs on them. Like paul we must be directed by the Holy Spirit. Was it in Corinth that he used their own beliefs and gods to give them a name for their unknown god?
By coming alongside and “being all things to all men” we will then allow those seeking truth (in whatever form) to get to know, The only way…. Jesus.
Bob
This is a good reminder for me to try to be civil and thoughtful on this blog, rather than sarcastic as I can tend to be.
Steve, you are right about if there had been another way Jesus would not have had to endure the cross.
My conviction: Jesus died to reconcile the world unto Himself, and there is no way to the Father but through Him.
My question: Does coming to the Father through Jesus
look the same for everyone? Is it possible that He made the way for people who never heard his name on this earth?
Goodmorning, Tony and Bob, The technical answer is that all people will end up before God. The difference between a Christian and non Christian is that as a Christian we will not be judgeded for our sin…The sacrifice of Christ paid our price at the cross.
Others will be judged by God…That I will leave up to God, as to His judgement.
The unsaved will miss out on many eternal blessings, not to mention eternal seperation from God and us. For thoes whom God so judges
Todays Daily Bread speaks to this topic, as tears are shed for the lost who are blind to the truth.
Steve
I was writting as you posted, Saled, Goodmorning to you as well.
We had an encounter with a Mohawk who posed tthe question as to wheter or not there was a different testement for other parts of the world.
The discussion got abrasive, somewhat civil but in the end, There is only one savior. This man from Galilee, and the story of his life and death. Jesus of Nazareth.
It is my belief that somehow someway, everyone of age and ability will be given the chance to make the choice, between accepting or rejecting the Christ.
Steve
Mart, this is a very thought provoking topic. We cannot be fishers of men (examples to a lost world) if we are continually pounding the truth into someone else while not opening our ears to listen and hear God’s prompting. We’ve all heard the expression, “God designed us with two ears but only one mouth.”
Many times in my life I’ve sadly met professing Christians that were so offensive to other Christians, quick to correct God’s numerical passages or defend an opinion, that I wondered how those outside the faith could ever see Jesus in them (and yes, there by the grace of God have we all been at some point in our lives).
God’s plan of salvation to the world is a narrow one way journey…believe in Jesus and his death on the cross for all, acknowledge our sinful condition, and receive him in our hearts.
When Jesus called his disciples together and told them to “go out and make disciples, baptizing them…” he didn’t give them ropes and lasso, megaphones and the like. Instead, he gave them God’s word, his truth to live by…and he repeatedly throughout the Bible calls us to be like him and be like-minded. “Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me-put it into practice.” (Philippians 4:9)
When Christians argue and are in a state of constant dispute with each other, what message does that communicate to a watching world? How does that draw others to see something unique and different within us?
Is it more important for some Christians to be right to defend truth, or is it better not to speak quickly so we can hear the need and seek how God would have us work?
Yes, God will judge, not us!
All we can do is be like Jesus. He showed love and compassion to the weak and sinful.
He never condemed them, even though He new every Law that came from God.
But those “in the know” the religious people He held to task and told them in plain truth what was right and wrong.
If we don’t know about Jesus and “The Way” then on judgement day we will be held accountable for our hearts and minds (even though we have sined under the law).
But if we know, and did not believe or act on His words, then we will be held accountable under The Law of God unless we are covered by the Blood of Jesus.
To reflect on Marts discussion as to “whether Christ is the only way to God.”
I know in my own heart that if there was an easier way to God other that through Jesus and The Cross I would jump at the chance and take that road.
Jesus also felt the same Luke 22:42 “,Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine be done.”
But there is no other way as I said before.
People in the world would seek out any other “truth” other than The Cross. Not only did Jesus go to the cross, but we must “take up our cross and follow Him daily”. Not an easy road at all.
Is there any other way to God, NO!
There are many other ways to achieve “peace of mind etc.” But only one way to God.
Hisgirl4life, of course you are correct, we believers should not argue amongst ourselves.
Yet Paul spent a great deal of scripture arguing not only with Jews but with others who took up different doctrine than that He had taught.
The sad history of Christianity is that it evokes such passion in the hearts of believers that even wars have been fought against believers.
That passion still at work today, has divided us into many congregations and sects. And yes cults.
Only through the Word can we be assured of His truth. So our defense as well as our offense is found there in the Word of God…The truth being a double edged sword, that can harm us as well as defend us. we must be therefore prayerful and careful as to how we respond.
Steve
How do we reconcile when Jesus, in anger & with physical force, drove the money changers out of the temple in this discussion? Is there a time to react with anger when we hear someone or group distorting God’s Word?
Good morning all. I just happened upon this website for the first time today, and interestingly, this topic involving who can be saved is one that I have thought about for many years–and over those years I have developed some ideas that I would like to present to you for your consideration and comment.
We all know full well that scripture says that Jesus is the only way to be saved–but how do we reconcile how people who exhibit the very Christ-like qualities Hisgirl4life outlined, yet fall under the category of the unsaved and lost for eternity because they have not accepted Christ. And as Steve said, I think everyone must get the chance to accept Jesus Christ before their death. However, let me offer you this line of thought:
If God is Love, and Jesus is God made man, then Jesus is Love…correct? Then, if a person who may not know the “Jesus” of the Bible, yet he or she somehow knows and practices to the best of their ability this type of God-Love–that is pure, sacrificial, unconditional Love–Do they not in essence know Jesus? Is not a rose still a rose even by another name?
Now as a Christian, I believe the surest way to salvation is through Jesus Christ revealed to us through scripture. However, what about the person who rejects Christ because he has been preached a faulty Gospel? We all know of people who have presented the Gospel in very un-Christ like ways–who have not been accurate representatives of Jesus…Can we blame people who reject this faulty portrayal of Jesus? Would God judge them solely on this and condemn them for eternity?
I surely don’t know the mind of God, but this explanation fits in with what I do know of God in my own heart and mind. I will be interested in your thoughts and comments.
Also, there is the enemy trying to cause chaos between believers and non-believers. Stealing seeds, etc. So, before entering into a discussion (if possible) pray to keep the enemy out and The Holy Spirit in.
And remember that God loves the world, that He sent His only Son to die for them as well as ourselves. And would a loving father sacrifice his only son if there was another way? As mentioned already.
So…enter into this arena with love for all there. Wanting them to be saved more than wanting to always be right.
And remember there are some that water, sew, and some that reap. How do we know which one we will be at any particular time? We need to ready no matter the season.
If the gospel of Jesuschrist will be welcomed by the world, then it will not gospel.
Sincerely
Alberto Vidal
I have learned through personal experience that personalities and temperaments always dictate the discussions of Christian faith. It is just the way it is. I “feel” and I “think” deepen as Believers vs. Unbelievers. Even among Believers who all agree that Jesus is the only way to God have differences concerning doctrines. And it is the age old truth that religion and politics create a stirring within us that is hard to cap.
In our discussions of who is right and who is wrong…Believers should be more about winning the other side to Christ, instead of alienating them because of the manner in which we represent the Truth. But I would be remiss to forget that even Jesus (as was stated in a previous post) had exhibited his own passion against those who defiled his temple with their corrupt dealings. He was not the passive person portrayed in the Sunday School posters of my childhood. There comes a time when we who are defenders of the faith must stand up for what we believe…our voices will rise and be filled with the inflections of our passions; I do not believe we are wrong in telling it like it is with the same fervor our adversaries speak while retaining a love for them. That love is what makes us different in our representation of all that Jesus stands for. So “speaking the Truth in love” is expected of us. But watch out for the fireworks…..
I am wodering, can we discuss God’s mind, our living creator? During my training in medical school, I learned that human beings were created with millions of alveolies in their tiny lungs when they were even still in foetus form. The minutes those newborn babies cries, all those millions of the aloveolies open up in a dash of light time. My mind said, it does not make any sense. I can not open a tiny plastic bag in a dash of light time. somehow this is about millions of extremely thin and tiny alveolies. What is the power behind it? How about the heart, kidney and blood in our body. Every single minutes ( or even second) certain amount of blood circulate in our bodies, out of our hearts, go into considerably small size kidneys, being washed , and back against the higher pressure to the cells, and eventually back to the heart. Think again: fluid flows against higher pressure, to the higher place ( from feet to heart). Human can explain the mechanism of osmolarity etc, but what make this incredible mechanism happened? It does not make any sense. Yet human , or scientist, or those who think they know better than God, never say: we don’t understand how this mechanism can exist. There must be other way that we can understand how those alveolies opened or the blood flow against high pressure. I learned physiology, embryology and other life stuff in awe, and I came back to my omnipotent God, asked forgiveness for my arrogance. I will not discuss His loving plan, but I will obey Him, to tell the lost that Jesus died for our sins, eventhough I don’t understand why this is the only way to come to Him.(ps. we will be in awe too to learn how our (immune system)defense mechanism cells were killed and die to engulf the pathogens in order to save our lives)
Like Kingsdaughter said, we need to speak the truth in love for this is what the Commandments boils down to…loving our neighbors as ourselves.
“I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but without coming through Me: (John 14:6). Here is one area that falls under an “absolute”…the truth of God. The God I worship and serve does not lie. That is an absolute.
In order not to “box in” our God, we would have to say He lies. If that is so, then do I want to worship a God that lies? If He is lying about John 14:6, then what else is He lying about?
I found this website as I was researching another topic. I found some helpful stuff in the discovery series, but wanted to check out what RBC ministries was before using it as a source for what I needed. Which led me to the RBC homepage. From there I recognized some familiar things from listening to various Christian radio over the years, and the years of having my Grandmother pass on her Our Daily Bread devotional books to me.
What caught my eye on the home page was the post on A Christmas discussion during Hanukkah though – one because I am Christian – one that has accepted Jesus (Yeshua by his Hebrew name) as my Lord and Savior AND our family celebrates Hanukkah! (As well as other Biblical Feasts) I guess I thought the article might have been talking about other folks like us. I don’t think I saw that though.
John 10:22 tells us that Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch during the Feast of Dedication (Hanukkah). He observed this Feast. It was there that he told people who he was, but they believed him not. Jesus preached three sermons where he declared Himself the “light of the world”, and all three would be during Hanukkah, also known as the Festival of Lights. Hanukkah is all about miracles and God’s ability to preserve His people. It’s also about a people deciding that they would not conform to the ways of the world, but be zealous for the way of God. They were willing to lay down their lives in order to stand up for what they believed. For me, the Hanukkah story found in 1st Maccabees is just as relevant for believers today as it was then. We need to be zealous for God and His way. We need to be learning from His instructions and conforming our lives to His ways, not our own, or the ways of men. Hanukkah is a season of dedication or re-dedication. It’s a season to remember who we are to be dedicated to, and then be about walking in that dedication – applying it to every aspect of our lives. Hanukkah does not conflict in any way with Jesus being the only to God.
Very interesting discussion. Steve, and Bob, I so agree. What a great point you put out for all who read this to think about. Jesus sweat blood in prayer hoping for another way…, but He humbled himself to God’s will. I’m grateful He did. Thank you.
The question being, “For better or worse what would we rather see: a civil, friendly opportunity for both sides to put our best case on the table for whether Jesus is the only way to God? Or free-wheeling, angry, disrespectful debate that shows how important and dangerous both sides consider this issue to be?”.
I personally would rather see a civil, friendly discussion. We are to PRESENT the Gospel (seeds and watering) the harvest is the Lord’s work. I would listen to someone who showed a respectful discussion rather than one being argumentative. The minute the conversation became heated it would turn me away. When Jesus threw out the money changers it was His right as Deity to be offended.
When any of the disciples came before the public they prayed and the door was opened for them to present the Gospel. There never seemed to be a discussion. They told the truth on how to be saved and left the rest to God. It is not about the human thoughts or beliefs but it is about God and how to be with Him throughout eternity. Human beings tend to mess things up with our vain philosophies.
When I first started this relationship with our Savior it troubled me about those who were so kind and yet did not believe in Jesus. Could they not also be saved? The truth being there is only one way to the Father and if we are so concerned about whether someone knows or not then we best be in the position of telling them. If we are beating them over the head with the Gospel, more times then not it will be pointing them in the opposite direction. I do not seem to recall anyone being argumentative in presenting the Gospel and especially not Jesus.
I think sometimes we forget that God is in control and not us. We try and force our beliefs on others rather than doing the job we have been given to do. Tell people the truth about salvation and leave the rest to God who does a exquisite job at harvesting. I think sometimes we take it as a personal insult when people do not listen to what we say when in all actuality it is against God and He does not need us to defend Him. He needs us to take the gospel into the world and to help the oppressed, hungry, cold, imprisoned, fatherless and those thirsty for the Word of God.
I would have more respect for someone who presented their beliefs civilly and friendly with no malice or argument. Just the facts please and allow the person to respond to God not to me.
From scripture we know that the only way to be saved is through one man…we don’t know that only those who know him can be saved through him. C.S. Lewis
BEYOND THE GATES OF SPLENDOR – I think Dayuama was saved before she heard of Jesus. Nankewie was certainly not saved. (Please for give the spelling.)
Poohpity, I couldn’t agree more…thank you for sharing! What a beautiful message for us all to think upon.
It is also true Rokdude, that we are called to speak the truth in love, but in all honesty, that seems to be another struggle for most. Yes, Poohpity, as Jesus was angry in the temple…He is God, and we are not. That is His sovereign right. The Bible has many scriptures on anger, and many of them are linked with the word “fool.” Anger is a normal emotion God created in each of us, but when it rises up quickly, sin is not too far behind.
We are the seed planters, and only God can make the seed grow, with a “willing invitation.” He doesn’t pound down the door of our hearts screaming, ‘Listen, I AM the only way.’ Instead, he gives everyone free will to chose and asks each of us, “Let your gentleness be evident to all.” When pride grips our lives, and we become gods in our own minds, God’s work cannot be accomplished in and through us.
As Trishern suggested, how are we to know, unless they tell us, whether they know Christ. Some of the kindest, most generous, loving people I’ve met don’t know Him. They know what I believe. They know my love of Christ. All I can do is plant the seed as Pooh stated. God’s quite capable of taking it from there. They may or may not choose Him…only God knows if they will as only God sees into the heart (he created it). Likewise, I’ve met some of the most critical, judgemental, even abusive individuals that profess to be Christians. I’m convinced if we spent more time humbling ourselves and seeking to improve our own spiritual walk and less time pointing out why others do it differently than us, our testimony would resound to God’s glorification.
I am wondering, what is the purpose behind the concept of setting down in an atmosphere of antagonistic theology, and discussing a subject as volatile as this one.
Is it to win believers? Is it to try and intellectuallize Christianity?
It almost sounds like walking into a bar and saying “I”m the toughest man in here, anyone want to prove otherwise?”
I have to tell you, the Holy Spirit can and does get offended. I have felt His pain and I am guessing some of you have too.
How many insults thrown at the Holy Spirit, does it take to offend you? If it doesn’t offend you, how then can you say, that you stand up for Christ against an unbeliveing world.
The matter leaves you with as I said this morning, walk away or stand and deliver.
Jesus did not back off and neither did Paul.
I believe that the current attitude behind the Episcopalian church is boardering on apostasy. Just further proof for me that the end is near.
Steve
I REPEAT:
I know in my own heart that if there was an easier way to God other that through Jesus and The Cross I would jump at the chance and take that road.
“Jesus also felt the same Luke 22:42 “,Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine be done.” Quoted from Steve.
People in the world would seek out any other “truth” other than The Cross. Not only did Jesus go to the cross, but we must “take up our cross and follow Him daily”. Not an easy road at all.
Is there any other way to God, NO!
I do not see that there is any discussion about grieving the Spirit in anyway or the apostasy in any church but how would you better respond to someone telling you that Jesus is the only way to be saved to eternal life.
Whenever anyone tells about the only way to God there will be those who will immediately bristle and get angry but it is not personal it is against God. Our reaction to the situation is what really proves what we do in fact believe. I really do not think we have to prove what we believe unless someone asks why we believe as we do.
I never understood where it says I have to defend an offense against the Holy Spirit but to deny Christ that is a different story. I do however have to watch my behaviors so that I do not grieve the Holy Spirit but how am I responsible for how another person responds to God unless I have created a negative experience that pushes them away from Him. When someone says something about the Lord I do however whence inside. I am offended and my soul cries out to the Lord but I know that God can and does take care of that. If I reacted to the person in anger or resentment then that is a whole other topic.
The only way to God the Father is through the Son.
But we do not have the line of action that God has. Many of us think that this has to be done before a person dies. But why can this not be done after death, why not even when being in hell? Maybe hell can be a purifying fire. Is there a scripture that says that people will forever burn in hell, it says: that they go to the everburning fire. And that is a difference.
It is Spurgeon who said, we must read what the bible says, and also what the bible does not say.
What if God did give a chance after death, isn’t He the One in action. What if He says that there is no end to His Kingdom, that He will go on with trying to get to lost souls. Isn’t He the one who started everything.
Wouldn’t we be suprised that many of us who have accepted Christ, yet cannot go straight to heaven, angels have to learn many more things about the Kingdom: meekness, being very humble, willingness to help others, being compassionate.
I have stated this before here, but to me Revelation 20 says a lot, it talks about the 1000 year reign here on earth, and then after that there is still something going to happen. It is a very brief descrition, and much overlooked, but to me it sounds like that everybody who everlived will be raised to life again, and those who have done good, will still have a chance.
The people who will follow Christ now, before His second coming are the chosen ones, the ones called to be leaders, kings and priests. But who will they be kings and priests of? Of all those who will still be added during and after the thousand year reign.
It is all in the future and not very clear, we will have to see what will happen, but I think this is very well possible. That God is much more mercifull then we think Him to be, and yet holding to the truth that noone can come to the Father but through His Son.
One of the most beautifull verses in the Bilbe is this one: John 7:37 Jesus is crying on the Last Great Day of the Feast (that is the Feast of Tabernacles described in Leviticus 23:39) It is on that Last Day that Jesus cries: come to Me and drink.
As if He visions the time when all the people will rise from their graves, He cries to them: Come to me and drink!
Follow the money! You pay $10.00 a ticket to see a movie or watch a competition. But to hear the gospel, which is given to us free? If the guy presenting Christ does his job right, people are gonna get upset… or saved. All of the preaching in the Bible didn’t end like those near Pentecost, with thousands saved. Others wound up with the preacher in a basket at the end of a rope, or at the bottom of a pile of stones. I don’t see how it could possibly come out “warm and fuzzy” and be real.
Deb, In the last several months I have read in the Christianity Today e mag that the Episcapol church has been making bishops and restructuring their leadership. Many of the people they have in Pastoral as well as uppermanagement do not believe in a virgin birth or a resurection. This is why I believe them to be in a state of apostasy.
Which makes me suspicious as to what their intentions are at this $10 a pop open discussion about the various other ideas as to how to find God. as mentioned by Mart in the topic opening statement. As he reported it from the Dallas Morning News.
I have had plenty of discussions from Budists,Musilims, and agnostic’s abut this subject. I cannot make another believe, I can only make my case and leave it there.
But at some point, I have to be bold and proclaim my faith and trust in Christ. I am not going to change. So what is the use of setting there listening to a bunch of unbelievers attempt to rationalize their nutty beliefs. All the while causing grief in my spirit.
Yes they insult God, and yes I feel it.
When Jesus was rejected by the elders and leadership of Israel, how do you think he felt?
Oh thats ok they are intitled to their opinion…No, he wept.
I only say that to think that there is a way to have a friendly civil opportunity to put both sides of the issue on the table, without it turning into someone getting upset; is unrealistic. No matter how we would like to think otherwise.
Steve
Steve I can not discuss the reason why they charged $10 a person or anything about the episcopal church because I was trying to stay on topic. I have opinions about a lot of things and the way churches direct people but I was so trying to remain focused on the question. I am weary of trying to fight battles that are just not mine to begin with. We begin the discussions on this site and then they go off into a whole different topic. That is OK but there is so much to learn on the subject at hand not that what you are saying is not important. If I am confused about the subject then I stand corrected.
Steve, you forgot to wish me a happy birthday today. I am almost as old as you, tee! hee! Now how’s that for going off topic. :-)
Mart asks what seems like a trick Question…? Why would we want to see a debate that becomes angry and sarcastic? I guess it would be one way to show how important and dangerous this subject is to become angry about it. This is a church that agrees with an openly sinning pastor that has caused much division in that denomination.
Happy birthday kiddo, are you half way to 106 now…!?
Foreverblessed
Some of the questions you pose in your post concern the Book of Revelation chapter 20. Revelation is often called a book of prophecy. To understand it fully, you should read the other books regarding prophecy as well…Daniel and Ezekiel are two. It can be confusing because of the different interpretations but with the Book of Revelation it is important to:
1) establish what the Bible passage means to the original readers – to see it in the light of their history
2) to know that Revelation belongs to a particular type of literature – apocalyptic. It is poetic and visionary, expressed through symbols and imagery. To take this picture-language literally, or to treat the book as a logical timetable is to go against the whole spirit of it.
3) to know that the book is rooted in the Old Testament. This is where you will find clues to the meaning of the various symbols – comparing scripture with scripture
4) obscure passages must always be understood in the light of passages that are clear – never the other way round
5) it is a book of visions – to treat the visions as we do parables, looking first at the whole picture and trying to discover the main idea
6) not to necessarily take John’s visions as a sequence of events which follow on one after the other. John may not have been so preoccupied with chronology as we tend to be.
It tells of the rising of the AntiChrist and the mark of the beast…how Christians are to refuse having this 666 number marked on their foreheads….the march on Israel by the AntiChrist and his forces – Russia, China, Persia, Libya….and finally the Great White Throne judgement when God opens the Book of Life to see whose names are entered there. Satan and those whose names are not written there are thrown in the lake of fire for ever and ever and ever…the second death.
Check out your local Christian bookstore. There are several books written on this subject which I am sure will help you.
Sorry I am so off topic but I am just trying to help a dear sister in Christ…and I will stand to be corrected if what I said is wrong. :-)
Steve
It’s almost belated but not….HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! Hope your day was filled with warmth, laughter and wondrous blessings from above.
God Bless you. I enjoy reading your posts.
not Steve but Pooh !!!!
but happy birthday to you too Steve.
Pat
Debating about “what” you believe seems irrelevant. God will later reveal something about his great love for us that will revise previous understanding. Perfecting our understanding is a gift of the journey. But we are warned that we still should not trust our own understanding. So if we abide in that suggestion the only thing that remains relevant is “who” you believe and trust. Take yourself and your belief out of it and it becomes impossible to be angry and sarcastic.
Having said that, I’m still susceptible to injecting my theologic opinion in a sarcastic manner and becoming offended when it’s challenged. I’m really glad Jesus said “Dont let your heart be troubled just trust God and Me” They got me covered even when I disappoint myself as Peter did.
Ok2bhought, What God will reveal will be far beyond our comprehension! Who know the mind of God, who canadvise Him?
Thanks Phpatato for you dearest concern, this is what Mart meant, that we discuss things lovingly.
There is no other way to the Father but through His Son.
But there is a sequence of events.
Phpatato said there must be more eveidence of what I write then just Revelation 20. Events After Christ’s coming, the Apocalyptical events are before Christ’s coming, I am talking about events after that.
I come up with the Festivals of Leviticus 23.
Having been raised in a christian church which also kept the Holy Days of the Ols Testament, I am very familiar with them. I also realise that to many christians who never heard of them this is all new.
But they might cover a series of events, and this is what they could mean:
The Spring Festivals have already occurred, so the meaning is clear: Passover, waving of the Sheaf, and Feast of unleavended bread, with Jesus’death and resurrection, and we eating the unleavended bread meaning we have to eat the Son John 6, then the Penticost, the Holy Spirit poured out on those who believe in Christ.
But then the Fall Festivals are yet in the future.
The Feast of Trumpets, doesn’s that have to do with Christ coming at the last Trump. Revelation 11:15
The Day of Atonement, meaning ? maybe the binding of Satan, described in Revelation 20:1-3
Feast of Tabernacles, maybe meaning the thousand year reign of Christ on earth, described in Revelation 20:4-6.
The Last Great Day, maybe something to do with Revelation 20:11-15
Everybody who ever lived will come to live again, and then it matters what they had done in this life, was there some good, they still have a chance, as I wrote yesterday.
But you are very dear to me, this is just some scripture and thoughts to think about.
But if you say, lets not talk about Revelation 20:11-15.
OK, that’s OK to me, but if you do study the Feasts and set them in the light of series of events, then maybe this Last Great Day is very very underestimated day, and unknown.
But I repeat, Jesus cry on that Last Great Day of the Feast in John 7:37: Come to Me and drink.
Happy belated birthday Pooh, Today is the aniversary of my first marriage. December 13, 1969….Sometimes it seems like someone elses life.
I am sorry if my comments appear to be off topic for you pooh. I thought they were.
Nevertheless. For a Christian there is no other way than the way of the cross. 2 Cor 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have recieved mercy, we faint not. :2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully:but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. :3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost.
The Cross & resurection, 1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Better yet read all of 1 Cor 15. This is the Gospel and explains why our hope is in Jesus alone.
Would we be able to *argue* with non believers using *our* scripture base as *proof* to our claims that Jesus is the only way?
If they reject our claims about Jesus, why would they accept our claims concerning our scripture?
At some point in the discussion, we are exhausted and all the words lead only to no conclisions. we are throwing pearls before swine and wasting our time. No matter how civil and nice we are.
Steve
Pooh, congratulations! And I agree with your comment dec 12 1.11pm.
Jesus was never argumenting. He just told the truth, and left it there.
Why should we be getting angry if people do not want to accept Christ as the Door to God. How can we lovingly discuss this with people who do not believe us?
Maybe by asking questions, like the Highest being in the Spirit world (beside God) is Jesus Christ, there is no one higher Colossians 1:15-20.
I am not sure whether this is “on topic” or not.
I have just returned from Church, my third visit in three weeks :-)
Some of the body had put together a puppet nativity play and it was excellent. We were told what a Privilege it was for them to perform this play. Apparently in some parts of the UK it is now illegal to hold a nativity play or to preach that Jesus is the only way to God.
Some school Christmas plays are about TV shows etc.
It seems our country has gone crazy for promoting racial and religious harmony.
To say Jesus is the only way to God is to insite hatred and is therefore against the law.
Like Steve has said, it would be impossible to have a non impassioned discussion about this topic with someone who does not want to here it.(the truth)
Just as Jesus told the deciples to wipe the dust off there shoes and leave, we should probably do the same.
I think the days of Revelation 20 are close at hand.
Bob
Ape, I am half way to 112 and hoping I do not make it there. lol!!! Can not wait to be with the Lord, face to face.
Thank you for the birthday greetings!!
Back to the discussion. When we become irate over any matter are we not in essence saying that God is not in control we are. So to present an issue calmly and peaceably would be the position that a Christian may take when they trust God in all circumstances. When we loose our temper and want to force our beliefs down someones throat that is saying I want to control this situation. Jesus told us that there will be ALL kinds of trials here but He is the King of Peace and if we trust and live in vital union with Him then we can trust Him with the outcome to ANY circumstance we face in life even how some churches are distorting the truth. That is the Lord’s battle but how we present the truth to someone shows who we believe is in control.
Remember how the religious leaders of Jesus’s time handled the truth, they wanted to stone Him and He slipped away. If we tell someone the truth then get angry because they do not see it what does that say about what we truly believe. God is in control and getting heated in a discussion shows how much we would like to be in control. You can call it passion but if you really are passionate about what you believe let the Peace that passes all understanding come over you and put it into God’s hands. Easier said than done.
typo, any matter are we in essence saying. I put two negatives in the same sentence wow, I blew it.
Happy B Day to Pooh and Steve!!
RJ
Dear Bob, I had been thinking of this subject this morning before I logged in and the “shake the dust off of your feet,” verse had come to my mind and I got here and what do you know….you have already done it! I also agree with you about the end days already here. In America we haven’t had them yet govern the church’s nativity scenes…or maybe they have and I don’t know about it. But “they” have made certain that the Godless minority wins as far as having that nativity scene removed from government property. It varies from state to state.
I’m sticking to what I know about whether or not we are inclined to have passionate yet civil conversation in “defense” of our own beliefs…no matter what you believe. PASSION overrules every time because we tend to get emotional about things close to our hearts. At the same time, Jesus knew you can “bring a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.” I guess that is why we really should “shake the dust off of our shoes and move on…” Jesus was talking about those who would not believe what the disciples had to say. But in this case, this topic…Mart is talking about a debate among Christians…or those who define themselves to be Christian. This debate should probably not be happening among Christians because the word Christian means follower of Christ and He is the One who says that “no man comes to the Father except through Him.” But then again, we are talking about the Episcopal Church. They have their own understanding and doctrine that is up for debate.
I’ll end by sharing this quote that I love : “Be careful how you live, you may be the only Bible that some people read.”
Love to all,
Dale
ps..Happy Birthday Steve and Deb…I think you must be December children like I am!
clarification: I was NOT quoting Jesus, as you hopefully know, about the “horse and water.” :)
It is so funny about this birthday thing see how down through the posts things get mixed up. lol!! :-) This blog does have a life of it’s own. What a crack up!!
Just had a discussion with my son today, he wants to go his own way, and wants to find out himself about what to believe. So now he started to study the bible, and compare it with the Jewish and Islam faith, looking for the simularities.
So here he was asking what is the difference? I answered: The reconciliation through Jesus. He was debating this thought, till I asked him this question: if someone had murdered, how is that offense to be forgiven? Just wipe it away and say, it is gone?
He was thinking, and was silent.
Asking questions is what we can do.
I am so sorry…did I not read about birthdays concerning you and Steve????
For me it is just too hard to follow posts at the very beginning on through to the end without losing track…scaling up and down the posts is time consuming and challenging..and to leave it to my memory is absolutely not going to work….so HAPPY BIRTHDAY EVERYBODY!!!
OK Pooh…Deb, it is official…your birthday statement was made on Dec 12th. I went back and checked that out…LOL
“A Christmas Discussion During Chanukah” makes me remember that there would be no Christmas without Chanukah. ygp mentioned some amazing things. In defense of the 25th as the day of His nativity, I would like to refer to embryology. If a child is conceived at Passover he will be born of the 25th. Of course that’s using a Jewish calendar. If you get a book on embryology and read the Exodus account at the same time, there are some amazing similarities. Zola Levitt touched on this in one of his books.
Also ALL the priests served at Tabernacles so John the Baptist’s father would have been there then. Six months later puts you at Passover. And where would you expect to find the Lamb, God born? Pehaps among shepherds and the sheep used for the Temple sacrifice. The “it’s too cold for sheep in December/Kislev” excuse is nothing. Sheep used for sacrifice would be at hand. And keep those wisemen out of the picture until AFTER Mary offers doves, because they left gold for a king. So they visited Him in a house sometime after February 2nd.
Born on the 25th of December gets you circumcised on Jan 1. Dec 25th (Nativity) and 25th Kislev (chanukah) same day certain years. The new moon for Kislev 1 and Dec 1 5BC coincide. So the 25th of December/Kislev 5BC is the same day. A little off topic, but befitting title. Have a Blessed Christmas.
What is meant by “way”? Everybody walks a different path(way). Jesus is the only door(way). And yet someone not clothed in the garments provided by the father/king is kicked out of the wedding celebration/feast in Matthew 22. Perhaps the question receives a different answer if we talk about the first and second resurrection. It seems there are at least seven resurrections recorded in the Bible and yet there are only two classes. Maybe our linear time is not the challenge for God as it is for us.
I thought that would be Jan 2nd for circumcision. :-)
Poohpity, I agree with your main(1st)post. Again it’s like you took the words right out of my mouth. Oh, happy birthday dear sister in Christ. I enjoyed reading the new people’s posts,too. I follow reading more than contributing most of the time,myself.
Good discussion. Just checked and might have missed but did not see a reference to Paul’s counsel to Timothy. As you will remember, when coaching Timothy to stand his ground against false teachers, he seems to offer a strategy that leaves anger on the side of those who feel threatened by the truth. He says in 2Timothy 2:24,
“The Lord’s servants must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone. They must be able to teach effectively and be patient with difficult people. They should gently teach those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will believe the truth. Then they will come to their senses and escape from the Devil’s trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.”
Thank you Mart! None of us did put scripture with it.
Also this one to Timothy: They will turn their ears away from truth and turn to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, .. 2 Timothy 4:4-5
And Kingsdaughter, in the beginning I found it hard too to read all the posts, And it also costs a lot of energy to write at first,too tiring.
But after a few months you get to know the people, and you get used to posting. It gets easier.
SO keep on posting.
And fluer if you still read, try and post again.
ok, just for the record… My birthday is October 4th. I don’t want anyone confused.
In keeping with Marts remarks from his latest post. I feel compleld to say that when I am confronted with agressive non believers, I am disapointed,agrivated,even disgusted. All of which boarder on anger.
I wish I could tell all of you that I don’t get angry. But sometimes I do.
When I do I am reminded of the 39th Psalm…which in part says “:I will keep my mouth with a bridle, while the wicked is before me…..My heart was hot within me, while I was musing the fire burned: then spake I with my tongue. Lord make me to know mine end, and the measure of my days, what is it; that I may know how frail I am.”
Thanks Mart.
Steve
Mart,
Of course I would prefer a civil, friendly opportunity for both sides to put our best case on the table for whether Jesus is the only way to God?
I’m not sure where I read this years ago I want to say it was in one or two Peter, I could be wrong but there is a passage there depending in which version you are reading that say’s in essence don’t be arguing about doctoring, I took this for years to mean that within the Christian church there are many belief’s and that separate even the Christian church. We still have to be respectful.
I had an opportunity ten years ago to host a foreign exchange student from Taiwan. We got into a friendly and up lifting conversation/discussion about Christianity and Buddhism. She asked me point blank what is the difference between my God and her God?
My response was “actually not much” I continued with how I had a lot of respect for Buddha and what he tried to accomplish in this world (I must admit I have never to this day read any material on Buddhism but I do know that those that follow him consider him to be extremely sacred.)
I continued that both Jesus and Buddha wanted nothing better for this world but the best for us. I continued that both Jesus and Buddha died and that Buddha is still in his proper grave, you can go and visit him, but with Jesus He has in fact risen and is no longer in His grave.
Then I asked her when she prays to whom does she pray to?
She responded that she doesn’t pray to anyone that all she does is sit in a certain position with her legs crossed and her arms with stretched out with her fingers crossed in a certain position and then concentrates to clear her mind out.
Wow! That alone scared me, and then only the Lord Himself could have put my next response into my mouth. I said God created our minds I believe that our mind is a very powerful tool, and yes I’m sure we can recharge ourselves but how long could that last?
I explained that similarly with a DC battery and AC electricity, how they could both light up a bulb, but with a battery I had to keep recharging it. Where if I plugged it into the wall I would not have to worry about it I could walk away from the bulb knowing that it would stay lit unless of course I didn’t pay my bill or we had a serious power outage. Our minds are like that battery and Jesus is the source like AC electricity is to us. Well to say the least her eyes lit up like saucers.
Today she is a Christian missionary in Taiwan, and has led many to the Lord. I believe if I had shared with her what I was taught growing up in church that Buddha and Buddhism is and was was from the devil, where would Winnie be at today? Or where would the former Buddhist be today that have been led to the Lord as a result of our time together?
So again I reiterate a civil, friendly opportunity for both sides to put our best case on the table for whether Jesus is the only way to God?
Sorry for being so long winded, (I have long fingers) little humor
Xavier/Rocky
Happy belated Birthday Deborah!
Steve happy 38th Anniversary!
It looks like this week is full of dates to remember. This week marks for me the beginning of the 40th year that my father has been gone to be with the Lord. December 9th, 1970.
Keep me in prayer that unlike the children of Israel who didn’t make it into the Promise Land that my family extended and otherwise would not make the same mistake that the Israelites made that kept them from entering into the Promise Land, that we would all be opened to stop the arguing and bickering.
Xavier
Xavier, Good example of tolerence from you. well done, It would seem I have much to learn and far to go on my journey back home.
Steve
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)
This to me says it all. But that does not mean we have to say it in an argumentative or un-loving way. How did Jesus confront people? To the religious know-it-alls, He seemed to blast them out of the water, not for their doctrine, but for their lack of grace. To the down and out sinners, He loved them, even ate with them, was intimate with them, to the consternation of the pharisees.
We have got to love folks before we try to show Jesus to them. Its hard, I know, but we simply have to do it. Since I can’t do it on my own, I must depend on Jesus to love them through me, but that doesn’t end my responsibility to love them.
Having said that, we still cannot water down the reality that Jesus IS the only way. Anything less than Jesus only is pure heresy.
Bob
Deb and Steve
I apologize for the confusion on your birthdays. I agree Deb, it is quite funny to see how it snowballed. I meant to type your name, Deb, but I was thinking about something that Steve had posted and ended up typing Steve’s name. It was only after I submitted my greetings that I saw my mistake. So when I corrected it, I didn’t want Steve to feel left out, so with tongue in cheek, I wished him a happy birthday too (knowing of course that I had probably missed saying it to him on his birthday because I didn’t know when it was). Just put it down to this crazy canuck getting far too old to be staying up so late. :-)
My sister is a teacher. She studies and fully researches things that she is passionate about. YEARS ago it was the Rapture of the church. She had opportunity to sit down one afternoon (during some sort of celebration in the family) with several family members with a cup of tea in her hand. The topic of discussion was about something terrible in the news which shifted to how much longer could this old world survive. Enter my sister….she firmly but oh so passionately spoke of what she had learned through her studys of Revelation and the Rapture. Some in the room fired off some very uneducated comments on what they thought would happen but it wasn’t long before, through her firm and passionate “voice”, that she had a captive audience. What she said hit me full force and I know there were others that definitely mulled over her words for awhile after. She used her firm and passionate voice to gain control of the conversation. It worked for her in that instance. God used her to plant seeds on a readied field (me for sure). Sometimes if one is too quiet in their rebuttal, they aren’t taken very seriously. On the other hand, if one is too abrasive in their comments, there is a huge risk of turning people off. Seems to me that in most instances though, to state your case, it is best to remember…
Proverbs 15:1 and 18
1 A gentle answer turns away wrath,
but a harsh word stirs up anger.
18 A hot-tempered man stirs up dissension,
but a patient man calms a quarrel.
Have a Blessed Day
Pat
rdrcomp (Bob), Appreciated your questions and comments to Dean on the Wonder of Creation blog.
Have missed seing you here though.
Heard an old Celtic song this morning titled “Christmas 1915″
It was, ofcourse, sad. A song about Christmas eve on the Western Front, as a German soldier began to sing carols, all the soldiers came out of the trenches and fellowshiped together there in “No Man’s Land”.
But in the morning when the big guns began anew and trench warfare raged the author of the song says, he killed the young German soldier who had been singing the night before.
Some may understand, some may not. I so long for Christ to take away all the evil in this place we call Earth. Where there is no more war (argueing).
Steve
Happy belated anniversary Steve and birthday wishes Pooh!
Loved your story Xrgarza! A gentle guiding from the Holy Spirit prompted you and led her to Christ. What a powerful story!
Bob, your comment, “We have to love people before we try to show Jesus to them,” was profound. There is no greater turnoff for both Christians and non-believers than a preachy, opinionated and borderline angry-for-the-gospel-to-be-spread Christian. You are right, Jesus reprimanded the Pharisees and religious leaders more often than any others. He truly was our example to hate the “sin” but love the “sinner.” There by the grace of God are all of us…sinners.
I wonder this Christmas season if Jesus would feel at home in my heart? I wonder if He could truly find a peaceful resting place there?
As long as we’re talking about angry-filled discussions, I’d like to share a quote on anger I wrote down this morning from a Christian devotional,”Anger is closely tied to your sense of well-being as a person and closely tied to your feeling of worthiness. The less worthy you feel, the more likely you are to try to compensate for that by laying into someone by blaming or accusing him or her, and that’s where your inferiority feelings can show themselves as anger.”
I pray that Jesus will find a welcome home in our hearts this season of His birth and always…May God bless each of you with overflowing thanksgiving and joy as we prepare to celebrate His birthday.
A.W. Tozer put it so eloquently when he said, “In the Church of God two opposite dangers are to be recognized and avoided; they are a cold heart and a hot head. And for downright harmful affects the hot head is often the worse of the two”. He went on to say which really caught my attention is that we can mistake passion with anger. He said it this way, “It may, for instance, confuse the fervor of the Spirit with the heat of the flesh, and mistake the scintillations of the overheated imagination for the glow of the true Shekinah. And this can be extremely dangerous, especially when it is found among religious leaders”.
I guess when we assert our passions in a way that takes over a calm spirit it is no longer the Spirit of God but our own standing for our beliefs. It would be like when Paul stood in front of the heads of Rome in the passion of his love for the Lord he was heard but if he were to have become heated in anyway it may have made the listeners not want to hear anymore which was not the case.
FYI the wife Steve had when He was taking about his anniversary has since passed about 11 years ago I think that time may be wrong. He is married to Glenna now. It is not really my business to let you know this I hope I have not over stepped his boundaries on this.
Just an observation: I have been watching “Jesus of Nazareth” on TBN and it began my thinking of how Jesus is portrayed in movies i.e. “Jesus Christ Superstar” etc…. His temperament is always stern and even morose. He even seems angry at certain times in his admonishments and warnings. Of course, they do show his gentle side, too. He was a man and had all of the emotions we all experience. Now, I know this is man’s depiction of Jesus but the only time I have seen Jesus with a smile on His face has been in “The Passion of the Christ.” I love the scene with His mother Mary and Jesus kidding around, being playful like real people would do. I have to admit that when I read the Bible, I hear a tone of discouragement in the words that also put fear into me. AND THESE ARE THE WORDS OF GOD. I say this only because the topic reminds me of how many people such as myself hear the angry voice and not the loving voice of the message. This has much to do with being raised by a punishing earthly father, perhaps. Even he was raised by a stern religious father who was rigid and unapproachable. Yet, he professed faith in Jesus. Sternness and anger can be misunderstood by the receiver, I guess.
I agree with the first pastor. The second says, “We who practice the Christian tradition understand him as our vehicle to the divine. But for us to assume that God could not act in other ways is, I think, to put God in an awfully small box.”
I would change “our” to “the only”. And then know that the Holy Spirit will “blow where he wills” including into the hearts of devout Muslims, Jews or whomever. God has always known each heart, and those he forknew, he predestined to become his children. That will be accomplished only through Jesus, the Saviour.
Dale, we had a conversation before about bringing our past into our relationship with Christ. I was from a family where I never quite measured up to their standards but yet when I started reading the bible I found the Love and acceptance of a God who used so many flawed people to achieve His plans for mankind. I read in every book about His continual mercy shown to such a wayward group from Genesis to Revelation. From the first time I felt the desire to absorb the word even though somethings were hard to learn but when we see time after time the mercy and compassion shown a rebellious lot and His anger turned into forgiveness His love is shown.
It does take reading further into scripture not just a glimpse of a book but the whole story. Pray for the voice of God to be heard rather than the noise of your parents because they may have never understood it for themselves. There are those who post on this sight that also reflect the rigidity of the heavy hand of the Lord but that can also be from a controlling type personality.
You are so right that you can not go on movies to really be biblically correct in their depiction of Christ even when they are on TBN. That is why it is up to us to read the bible and know how the stories are in truth. “The Passion of the Christ” was given a lot of time to make it as truthful as possible but there are things we are not told in scripture like how Jesus interacted with His mom but to know that He was just as much human as Divine we can guess. I have watched a lot of those movies and have never found any of them to be accurate especially those older ones.
Want you to understand Pooh, you are by sister and I would never concider you oversteping any boundries.
I always liked the movies about Jesus. “King of Kings”,”The Greatest Story Ever Told”, “Jesus of Nazareth” certainly the longest and I thought the best, “The Passion of Christ” was a little too graphic, but got the point accross.
There are others out there, but the thing is that where they all can get an audiance, their audiance is usually already believers. Many of which critique the movies for their non scriptual discrepencies.
I always just say, just enjoy the movie and know that it isn’t intended to be scripture.
Same goes for “The Ten Commandments”, After I became a better Bible student, I discovered lots of holes in the movie that didn’t agree with scripture. Then I read Josephus and found many *missing* or *added* parts found there. So to take my own advice… I just enjoy the movie.
I have to remember the words of John 21:25, ” And there are also many other things which Jesus did,the which, if they shoud be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written, Amen.”
To we Christians, if we didn’t understand any thing else, we have to believe Jesus’s own words John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
There is no room for compromise in that statement.
Steve
Thank you Pooh and Steve…Just a little note about the NBC version of Noah’s Ark…I immediately turned it off when after the flood Lot floated up to the side of the ark in a boat…hmmmm.
And just one question…are you related by blood..sister and brother?
Have a good day.
Love In Christ,
Dale
The statement of Pickledheart was sensible:
There are many ways to God, but only one Doorway, and that is Christ.
So many ways to come to the Doorway.
Dale, Pooh (Deborah) and I as well as my other sister gr8grannyjacobs (Charlotte) were able to conect off the blog and have become very dear to each other. we are only related through our Christ.
Steve
Thanks Xrgarza for your story,
checked the book of 1 Peter, and 2 Peter, but did not find your scripture there.
But in 2 Peter 2 Peter is talking about false teachers, but not that we should say that in their face, but what their end will be.
But maybe the scripture you look for is Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because they are unprofitable and useless.
But Paul says what we should be occupied with: v4-5 But when the kindness and love of God our Saviour appeared, He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy.
V 5-8 are beautifull verses to read. What we should be busy with the reconciliation through Christ.
Truly, ranting and raving get us nowhere. However, I caution entering into these debates at all. Why Matthew 28′s Great Commission if there is any other way to God? God’s Word assures us in the end there will be all kinds of false teachings and that people will not put up with sound teaching; they will seek and find what their itching ears want to hear. You’re either for God or against Him, there is no middle ground. I’ve tolerated all I can in regards to the steady erosion of the authority of the Bible. There is a time to fight, there is a time to be angry, and I believe that time is now. We don’t have to be mean or nasty about it, but rather fierce and well educated in God’s Word. These debates are not helpful. They simply show our pentient for tolerance that flies in the face of what God’s Word clearly declares. Know God and be different, do not continue in your sin. Are we doing anyone any good by not taking a stand?
Yes we have also connected with bubbles, peg and Xavier (xrgarza). I personally really miss them lately. Gr8granny is missed very much and prayed for her healing from the diagnoses of cancer. My heart is heavy for her but I trust the Lord with her care. I love you guys and miss your comments. Forgive me gr8 for telling about the cancer but you need all the prayers we can say. It was done in love.
swallman, that is the point at discussing the way to take that stand.
I meant of discussing not at discussing.
Didn’t mean to omit you Bubbles (Kathy). You too are my sister and much loved here in our home.
As are all of you out here on the blog. I have found real friends and real heart felt relationships with all of you.
Steve
Mart logged in to remind us of 2 Tim where Paul advocates a gentle defense of God’s Truth so that “perhaps” God will draw those in error to repentence.
Takes a lot of pressure off when we don’t take on more of the job of ‘convicting’ than we are entitled. We are to be bearers of the Good News of God’s grace. When we speak, defend and live the Living Truth that dwells inside us, God has all he needs to draw those he has chosen to himself.
Earlier in 2 Tim chap 2, Paul refers to this attitude by quoting OT scripture: God knows who are his and who he will draw to himself through Jesus.
And we don’t.
Jesus deals with this extensively, recorded in the second half John 6. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him,…” and later “… I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has allowed him to come.”
Seems to me that anything other than a loving, gracious defense of the Living Word residing in us would hinder the good news. A brittle, sarcastic and inpatient presentation of who Jesus is would serve to contradict what who we claim to live within us.
We are “tellers” of the Good News of God’s redemptive plan and witnesses to how He has changed us. We pray for more workers in the harvest field to proclaim the truth of Christ. We live and interact with people in such a way that the fruit of being grafted into the Living Vine is self-evident.
And the Holy Spirit is able and willing to draw those whom the Father wills to repentance and eternal life. Some will believe. Some will reject. But it is the Spirit that gives life and resorting to quarrels are unprofitable and counterproductive.
e must never forget that once *we* too were blind and now we see. Intellectual debates, heated discussions about non-essential theological perspectives are no substiture for the spiritual power involved in simply shining the light and watching the Lord of the harvest do his marvelous work.
double your money back for all misspelled words and grammatical errors…lol
I am a cancer survivor (Thank You Jesus). Will be praying for you Gr8. Love you my sister. :)
Would you say that being drawn to the Father would be to be raised in a believing household? How is one drawn to Him? Does that mean we are predestined as individuals to be saved?
God is still in the miracle business.
Speaking the truth in love is so important. There is much wisdom in saying the right thing in the right way. The old saying that flies are more attracted to sugar than vinegar is true. If we try to witness to a lost soul, we should be respectful of that person. Jesus loves them and died for them. No one wants to listen to unkindness and hatefulness. That is not of God.
A few years ago, I was in the driveway washing the car.
Two young boys (late teenagers) walked by. By their dress you could tell they belonged to a group that did not teach the truth. I asked them if they knew for sure they would go to heaven when they died. They couldn’t give me a difinitve answer.
So, I began to talk with them, sharing verses. From their teachings, they came back with other verses. We talked, and talked. They didn’t become angry with me, or me with them. We just talked. I felt so sorry for these fellas. They had a mom who loved them. They were very far from home, doing what they were taught to do. . . finally one of them said to me, “I wish I could believe what you believe. . .” It broke my heart. :( (It appears this group always pairs a stronger with a weaker person.) I told him he could, he needed to ask Jesus to help him understand His Word. I gave him some verses to read at home.
Wish this story had an ending. Never saw them again. I don’t know what happened to them. However, if our time together had turned into an arugment, they wouldn’t have listened. Please pray for this boy who so desperately wanted to believe. His eyes haunt me to this day. . .
Steve, you weren’t offensive. :) All of you are special here. Feel like I know so many of you!!!
No I would not say that being drawn to him is being raised in a believing household. I have seen many who are raised in believing households who turn away because of expectations laid on them like Preachers Kids (PK’s) or Missionary Kids. They grow up resentful because they are held to a higher standard then professing Christians are able to meet themselves. I believe that all of mankind is predestined to have a relationship with God but many choose their own path. The bible says that one day every knee will bow and tongue confess Jesus is Lord.
Being drawn is that call of your heart to accept Jesus as Savior and it goes even further than that. It is a desire in your heart to learn all you can learn about Him. It is like any love relationship, you want to know all you can know about that person and you just want more and more of them.
Even in marriages there is a time when the fire dies down and you have to take the initiative to ignite that fire again. Psalm 42:1 “As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after Thee, O God.” Not to many experience that because so many things get in the way of that desire. Things like expecting God to do things the way we want them done and how we want them done, mainly we get in the way. But God has always desired for us to commune with Him and to put Him first in our lives. He knows how much of Him we want or desire and He will provide.
Gee, Dependent, I would be rich oh wait I already am. LOL.
Thank you, Debbie…I just wanted to know if I was on the right track with my definition of “drawn”…I agree with you.
Good post! As far as this country is concerned, I agree that the discussion of whether Christ is the only way to God should be considered as “a civil, friendly opportunity for both sides to put their best case on the table” especially when people have paid the church and its pastors 10 bucks to hear the truth!
This only reflects the extent to which Christianity has been reduced to such pathetic depths in a society that is made up of very wealthy, highly intelligent yet biblically illiterate people who approach the gospel as consumers rather than seeing it as a way of life.
Moreover, it is also interesting for me to note that without the power of the Holy Spirit, the gospel is not being preached but is discussed with grace and respect. Clearly shows that the purpose of the gospel here is not to make disciples, which means the gospel is not a dire need here… because all have already heard about Jesus and His gospel.
The gospel has been proclaimed throughout the length and breadth of this land and it has also been rejected. The reason for this is: since people refuse to see themselves as sinners, they also do not feel the need for forgiveness of sins and as a result their response to the gospel is mute indifference.
Therefore, without the need for the gospel, the only option here is for such distinguished discussions to be held in an honest and gracious manner that allows both sides to make their best case.
This explains why most people who even call themselves born-again Christians live no differently than non Christians. After hearing the gospel with grace and respect, there is no conviction… the profession of their faith is limited to lip service while their hearts are far away from the Lord… typical of an untransformed heart… as seen in the parable of the guest who showed up without the wedding attire.
How else can one explain the poorest of the poor in other parts of the world who are so much stronger in faith and are in every way superior when compared to Christians here who are stricken with spiritual poverty due to lack of faith or wisdom?
…because, in those parts of the world where the gospel is being preached to unreached people groups, the need is great… the light of Jesus is shining brightly to dispel the darkness… to deliver and set free poor and oppressed people from the bondage of sin. There, it is a joy to witness the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit as He continues to heal, forgive and save thousands of people every day!
Lived and grew up among an unbelieving majority and was raised by God’s servants which includes my father who are living examples of becoming all things to all men so that by all possible means some might be saved.
Would like to share so many wonderful stories of salvation that I have personally witnessed but I don’t think there is any need of it because the amazing work of the gospel in those needy places is neither hidden nor an overstated fact!
You see, there people are painfully aware of the heavy burden of their sins and so the church is not preoccupied with being respectful and gracious.
Kindness and grace is seen as the gospel is urgently proclaimed in the manner it was received… because they know that the supernatural power of the gospel lies in God’s sovereign election and not in their own faulty presentation.
To me, this strange concept of the gospel being discussed with grace and respect is to consider a firefighter taking utmost efforts to show grace and respect while watching a house and its occupants being consumed by the flames and getting burned to death.
Bottom line: With the ex. of the city of Nineveh, no matter how the truth is proclaimed, His sheep hear His voice to immediately repent and turn back to Him!
Mart, 2 Tim 2:24 applies to teaching the truth within the church and yes, I agree the Lord’s servants should be kind. Here, I can see you are very kind and in the church in this country those who teach are kind… very kind… too kind like Eli and too sweet which is utterly unhealthy.
In fact, the kindness is seen in the patient and gentle teaching of the foundational principles of repentance, salvation and faith in God over and over again.
In stead of raising spiritual children and make them into disciples who grow and mature in their understanding of God, the congregation is constantly being reassured of God’s love, grace, mercy and compassion.
With all due respect and kindness of Christ, it beats my mind to comprehend why born-again Christians are referred to and also consider themselves as poor, blind, lame, lost sheep, harlots, Samaritan woman, tax collectors, sinners, diseased, demon oppressed, desperate people even after 10-60 years of salvation experience?
Is this not an outright mockery of the healing and restoring power of the Messiah? This is not to make snide, sarcastic, or insulting remarks but is an expression of my untold pain to see a people group that desperately struggles with the elementary teachings about Christ to doubt and fear the love of God and their faith in Christ.
And if you say you do not feel or relate to that pain then you and I obviously do not have the same Holy Spirit.
And to my spiritual understanding, this does not even look like stunted growth… it is a classical case of still birth… which is the very consequence of kind and gentle discussions of a consumerist gospel that is being delivered to satisfy the self-centered needs of the respected customer!
We must remember, that the purpose of preaching the gospel or speaking God’s truths even right here in this blog is not to court or convince everyone, but it is to simply serve as a witness.
Love for God and others is made evident in the faithful witness who does not hide the truth…even if it offends. If truth was not offensive, then there was no reason for the offended to kill the prophets or Christ or the Apostles.
When we boldly speak the truth, we are fulfilling God’s will for all people everywhere to have the knowledge of truth and be saved.
So that on the Day of Judgment, none of us will have any excuse to have either knowingly rejected or ignored to respond to God’s eternal truth!
There is certainly no condemnation of hell fire for those who are in Christ but “we must all appear before the judgment-seat of Christ; that everyone may receive the things done in his body, according to that he has done, whether it be good or bad.” 2 Cor. 5:10 and that is Paul’s counsel to Christians in the church at Corinth!
Dear Mart:
I thought your blog entry was “right on.” Too many times our discussions together (either as Christians who agree on many points)- or – with our non-Christian friends – create more “heat” than “light.” May our conversations with others always be in love, while not sacrificing our integrity and convictions. Thank you for this article!
Daisy in light of your thoughtful post, I can’t help wonder how many Christians have sacrificed everything to run into that burning building of occupants to save others, just to find the occupants clinging to bed posts and door frames? The greatest discouragement and deepest sorrow I’ve known is to seek and pray God will open the door to hardened hearts, only to have those hearts reject Him by the very reasons your post suggests…mostly, prideful rebellion. God has left that choice with each individual, and sadly, there are many within the church that call themselves born again on Sunday, but live an entirely different way the other six days out of the week. Yes, we have awesome power living within us, the gift of His Holy Spirit, but we are also human with human flaws. We will have that sinful nature (with all its imperfections) until the day of Christ’s return when we will see Him face to face and be transformed fully into the likeness of him.
Dear Brother and Sisters in Christ, just had to “throw in the towel” on this one. WE ARE ALL THE CHURCH, not one religion, not a building. The church is all of those who BELIEVE. Believe what: believe that Christ died for our salvation. Remember too God has said He judges those harder (not right word but it’s escaping me at the moment) who know the most about Him and His commandments. If you are a native living in the rain forest and know nothing of God but live a righteous life walking as Jesus would have walked surely God honors that. Too, we do not know God’s heart, we presume to do so. Nor can we EVER possibly understand His ways or plan. It’s far beyond our ability to do so. We can only live out our lives trying to live by the example of His Son, Jesus. This is how we become santified and God gets us there if we believe and trust in Him. No need for heated debate as it takes away from our CHURCH, us as God’s children and what we believe. God bless all.
I agree with you, Hisgirl4life…that the scariest(yes, I said scariest) thing about being a Christian is the standards to which we are held knowing we will fail. MANY people do not understand the bondage of sin and the freedom in the Truth. Because it is presented as this life of boundaries and if we dare to step outside, well then, we are going to hell! THAT is the message some people receive. They never ever hear about the grace of God and that He is slow to anger and His love is never ending. No, to some He is a conditional God…You must believe in my Son or you are going to hell. That is CONDITIONAL, my friends. Yes, I believe in Christ who died for my sins and I try to live a life pleasing to Him but now on the heels of my son’s possible suicide I am devastated and am left wondering for my son’s sake…and as much as people try to tell me that I am beating myself up a little too late, well, I have news for them…I will never take this lightly. I am the mother whose umbilical cord to my child will never be cut. I am the mother who prayed for her children, who took them to church, and saw them baptized into the faith, etc…I had faith that my children would be protected… No wonder it is hard to get the message of faith across even to the faithful. In this grief, it is a whirlwind of emotions and doubt…God does not seem near.
I have been a Christian since I was 12….my understanding was a simple faith..not this complex maze of intellectual theology. I still do not understand some things, obviously. I want God to reveal things to me through this tragedy but it is being obscured by tears and more tears…and an unrelenting barrage of questions.
And what about the judgment seat? Why will we be accountable for the good AND the bad…if the BAD has been forgiven and forgotten? That has always made me wonder.
So if I am off topic here…sorry…but I have questions and this is a good place to turn.
dale
Kingsdaughter, when you are a believer, your sins are forgiven…thrown into the sea, cast away, nailed to the cross of Christ. Although I have not lost a child, I have stood alongside one in a hospital as their very life and breath seemed to be slipping away. Yes, at that time, I questioned. I was angry with God. How could he allow this…yes, I like you had been a loving, faithful mother. As I feel on my knees and asked God, “Do you know how much I love him? You’ve given him to me?” Then, I his still, quiet and loving voice. “But he was mine first…he is just on loan to you for awhile, and I loved him first…more than you can imagine.” It was then in that moment that all fear vanished, and I asked God to forgive me for my selfishness and prayed “Your will be done…thank you for him. I know if you chose to allow his life to end, it is because you intend him to come home to you.” Please know that the seed you’ve planted is there withing your son and that God has nourished it. There is no doubt in my mind from what you’ve shared that your son is with the Lord. Cherish the gift God gave you, the memories and most of all…the deep, abiding love the Father has for you and your son that now rests in his arms.
Please pray for my mother. Just received a call from my father…he brought her into the ER.
Thank you for your answer…and I am praying right this minute for your mother.
Love in Christ..
dale
Integrity, dignity, courtesy and respect
Consider 1Pe 3:15-16:
But set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts and always be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks about the hope you possess.
Yet do it with courtesy and respect, keeping a good conscience, so that those who slander your good conduct in Christ may be put to shame when they accuse you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tit 2:7,8
…showing yourself to be an example of good works in every way. In your teaching show integrity, dignity,
and a sound message that cannot be criticized, so that any opponent will be at a loss, because he has nothing evil to say about us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Also a fascinating story of Apollos in Acts 18 that shows a loving approach toward a brother who is missing some pertinent theology:
Act 18:24 Now a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, arrived in Ephesus. He was an eloquent speaker, well-versed in the scriptures.
He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and with great enthusiasm he spoke and taught accurately the facts about Jesus, although he knew only the baptism of John.
He began to speak out fearlessly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained the way of God to him more accurately.
When Apollos wanted to cross over to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he assisted greatly those who had believed by grace, for he refuted the Jews vigorously in public debate, demonstrating from the scriptures that the Christ was Jesus.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lastly, we have another example from Acts 17. Paul was deeply troubled by all the idols he saw in Athens. He was confronted and mocked by the Epicurean and Stoic philosphers.
His response? He ventured to their turf and presented the Gospel using the same kind of reasoning and debating skills that were accustomed to. Did so with respect and contextualized the gospel without diluting it. (Planted seeds.) They listened, scoffed at him and he left.
v34: “…but some people joined him and believed.”
Paul invoked the ‘alter to the unkown God’, one of the pagan objects he despised, to bolster his message. He even quoted one of their poets.
I chuckle to imagine a “Christian” heckler in the crowd condescendinly responding, “That’s not scripture! Shame on you Paul!”
Hisgirl4life, you are absolutely right about occupants clinging to bed posts and door frames. It breaks the heart but all the more causes unbearable sorrow when those occupants happen to be born-again Christians that are like Lot… who after having tasted the goodness of the gospel, allow themselves to be lured by temporary worldly blessings and deliberately sin to backslide and wander out of God’s will. All we can do is to faithfully pray and intercede for the lost… like Abraham did. Sorry to hear about your mother… hope everything goes well at the ER. She is in my prayers…
kingsdaughter, The Lord has brought you here to be blessed and comforted. I understand the pain of a mother who has lost her child. You are in my daily prayers…
Hisgirl4life, Just prayed for your mom, dad, and you.
kingsdaughter, have also prayed for you. I thought about you as I read My Utmost for His Highest devotional for today on 2Tim.2:15. As you read and study the Bible, may you be filled with the Holy Spirit and be comforted with the peace of God. Thank you for sharing your struggles with us who also are sailing through storms in our lives right now. Oswald Chambers writes, “try to state yourself what you believe to be the absolute truth of God and you will be allowing God the opportunity to pass it on through you to someone else.” The entire devotional may be read on the RBC website.
dependent, Amen! I was also reading Paul’s responses in Acts chapters 23, 24, 25, 26, and 28. When we are filled with the Holy Spirit and our tongue is controlled by Him, then He will lead us in the responses to believers and unbelievers. And also when to be silent. Thank you, Jesus.
Daisy, Oh, common now Daisy every time I speak to you I don’t always say someting that makes you grit your teeth… Little dry humor there Daisy.
I personaly think everything has already been said over and over again. But I took the time to read all you had to say.
As usual I find much you say I agree with, and have already said in my own simple way. One exception comes to mind though.
It seems you don’t think much of the United States of America and it’s inhabitants. I think maybe you need to get out of Phoenix and see more of this country than you have seen.
Not everyone here in this country is the spoiled and backsliding group you like to portray them to be.
This nation provides the majority of missionaries in the world. Provides more aid to the world than any other. And in spite of what Obama said, is still a Christian nation.
Oh yes, we have lots of problems, and lots of argueing trying to solve them. But we are trying to solve them.
There used to be a comedian named Don Rickles. He would insult everyone he spoke to. Then with a sneer would say “I only say this in love.” I guess he would do that so the person he just insulted wouldn’t get upset with him. But I don’t think he fooled anyone. He didn’t really love them. He just insulted them.
As I have told the story before, I have never forgotten that preacher who told his audiance of youn teenage girls, they were all going to hell be cause he *accused* them of sin by “listening to that rock and roll” and “smoking them cigarretts”
This preacher wasn’t telling them the way to salvation, he was confirming to them the way *he* thought to hell.
Paul said *Preach Christ* not preach sin and damnation.
Steve
dependent and steve do you not feel that what you say now and many times in the past is being told to deaf ears. If someone feels they are being persecuted for their beliefs then they will not hear the truth of God’s conviction for sinful attitudes. That battle belongs to the Lord. It is a shame and that is exactly what the topic is about.
dependent, Amen, again!!
I like that Steve…it is hard to undo a lifetime of condemnation…if you were brought up that way. I went to church on my own. It was my social life. My grandmother was my influence, though. My parents did not start going on a regular basis until after I was married and had my three children. The sermons I heard at church for a number of years in my youth were to my own understanding. It was the “hell, fire and brimstone” kind of sermons for the most part. I came to Christ that way…a scared, young girl who did not want to go to hell. It wasn’t about how loving He was…it was more about that I thought He was going to send me to hell. I have come a long way but am still struggling with issues that have scarred my mind and heart. I appreciate all that I read here and try to absorb all that God has in the messages and topics posted here. Thank you everyone, for all the prayers, as well.
poohpity, I’ve got enough things in my own heart to deal with–without pretending to know how another reader responds to my limited interpretation of God’s Word and ways.
If the Spirit of Christ can somehow edify the Body through my words here–glory to God! If seeds of God’s Word are planted or watered and produce fruit, I am thankful for His faithfulness. For I have been enriched, encouraged, convicted and enlightened through the words posted on Mart’s blog.
kingsdaughter, I can so relate. And I remember vividly the evening, when God surprised me as I lay in bed, revealing a glimpse of His mercy and love for me. After a childhood full of an unbalanced (but biblical!) diet of condemnation and judgement–I had a skewed understanding of God’s attributes. That night “out of the blue” Abba Father poured into my heart exactly what I needed. What followed was hours of laughing and crying–and liberating joy!
But it was just a beginning of a long journey, to this day, of letting God help me weed out the judgemental and critical attitudes that had grown deep roots. And now I can see so much more clearly the attributes of God that draw me nearer. From bondage to liberty. The little boy saved by grace is still growing up by the grace of God.
Forgive me for assuming it gets me into trouble all the time. Still learning.
Steve, appreciate your comment. Glad you found some common ground to agree with! This is leading me to go off the topic but since you mentioned your country, I am eternally grateful that according to His predetermined plan the Lord brought me to the right place… to a people who love the Lord as much I do.
And no, there is no need for me to get out of this place because this blog is a perfect sample that perfectly portrays the depth of faith in Christ… in this earthly country…thanks though for your kind advice!
You said “Preach Christ not preach sin and damnation”. To me that is half truth which is a lie!
“whoever believes will not perish” perish in what?
“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved” saved from what?
If you simply preach Christ, then people will have no idea why they need Christ or why they need to repent. If preaching the gospel does not convict people of their sins, they will never be aware of their need for a savior.
And Steve, Jesus did not come to call a righteous Christian nation who provides the majority of missionaries in the world… Provides more aid to the world than any other and preaches for “listening to that rock and roll” and “smoking them cigarretts”…
…while being entertained by a comedian named Don Rickles and constantly harps of showing a false love that readily divorces spouses, deserts children, despises brothers and sisters in the body of Christ and despicably doubts the love of the very One who gave His all for them!
Jesus came to call sinners to repentance (Luke 5:32)!
At Athens, Paul’s spirit was grieved and roused to “anger”. Therefore he “disputed” and “argued”… he did not discuss but preached to them in no uncertain terms that God “commands all people everywhere to repent” repent from what?
The whole truth of the gospel is that Christ has come to die for me so my sins can be forgiven, but the gospel makes no sense if I have no clue as to why I require forgiveness. In 1 Cor 15:1–4 Paul rightly tells us the Gospel “that Christ died for our sins”!
As Paul REASONED with the the folks in Athens he met them on common ground which is the mark of a excellent communicator not in anger. Although INSIDE his spirit was troubled because of all the idol worship but rather than talking down to them he found the commonalities and introduced the God that they already had an alter for but did not know so he explained God to them. It does not sound to me that he did anything other than presented his case to them in a civil manor. This group of philosophers were used to discussing many different doctrines and they wanted to hear what Paul had to say. This was a discussion not a dispute as used in today’s language.
So then, daisymarygoldr, I’m curious to know:
Are you gracing us with your presence in this blog for the purpose of ‘discussing’ or ‘preaching’? Or both?
To me, one would really have to stretch the language to conclude from the account of Paul in Athens that his demeanor wasn’t civil and tactful as he presented the the good news of the resurrected Christ.
Maybe I’m not understanding your interpretation of “discuss”…but it seems patently obvious that there was a healthy and ongoing give and take amongst the participants in Acts 17 that led some to enquire further and believe and others to scoff and reject. The interaction is a great example of Paul using his vast rhetorical skills to present the claims of Christ (in a decidedly intellectual forum) in a manner that the Holy Spirit used to illuminate, convict and redeem a portion of the listeners.
Which I think is pretty much the topic (if not the title) of this “discussion”.
poohpity…didn’t see your post before I hit the ‘submit’ button! Else I wouldn’t have repeated. lol
Hi all! I’m praying & thanking God for His good will in all the needs crying out in this blog.
I live in a small town in the Mojave desert. This evening a group of 16 of my Mormon neighbors/friends drove up and sang Christmas carols-including Silent Night. They have done this for us for the three years I’ve been here. This year they had a truck with a keyboard-how cool is that–I was crying before they started singing!
When I met their missionaries, visited their church and other activities, I politely stood my ground about my faith that Jesus is the only way. Still, they come and sing for us, some I can say, are my close friends.
Because both “sides” have been civil and friendly when we put our cases out on the table in the past, we have been able TO BE.
The other local “Christian” churches don’t call, don’t visit-nothing..unless I regularly attend.
I just don’t get it…
Peace.
Thank you for your faithful prayers. My mom is finally resting comfortably in the hospital. Praise God for narcotics as she was in tremendous pain. They will be watching her closely through the night.
Loretta, I know sad isn’t it. I have found that many times the Love of Christ fails to be lived out in the body of believers. We have a lot to learn and do don’t we? I guess it may be because we have to many preachers and not enough doer’s. Tozer said in the 50′s the church of God cares more about their programs than about the people. I think that is ten times worse in today’s church, it was just starting then.
dependent, remember the lesson we learned on how to be adept at reducing the clutter? I’m really blessed by your gracious presence and the kind words you share with us in this blog!
I’m curious to know about your missionary trip to Asia… been praying about it everyday.
May God abundantly bless you and your ministry!
Loretta, I have always thought that the Mormons truly live what we of other faiths in Christ should be doing. I take the time to witness to Mormons who come to my door. But, I don’t go out and knock on doors. But when I was younger our church did do that…now, you don’t see any other Christian faith dare to come to the door. Not in my area, anyway.
As related to other posts, I got to thinking last night as these hymns came to mind…”Stand Up Stand Up For Jesus You soldiers of the cross…” and “Onward Christian Soldiers marching as to war..” and there are others that really say YES we are in a battle….there is spiritual warfare all around us. This is why we should be bold…not angry..but bold.
Just sharing my thoughts today…now, on to the next interesting topic…love to you all!!!
Dale
Sorry that it has taken so long for me to respond I usually only have one day a week to participate and this being Christmas week it is a short and busy week.
God bless you all and have a very Merry Christmas.
Steve, “Xavier, Good example of tolerence from you. well done, It would seem I have much to learn and far to go on my journey back home.”
It definitely is not tolerance, it’s years of trying to practice what I preach. I want to be able to say like the Apostle Paul did several times “imitate me”.
Hisgirl4life: Thank you and God Bless you.
Deb & Steve: Thanks for the info. I didn’t mean to be insensitive or disrespectful regarding your spouse.
foreverblessed: Thank you I am glad that you liked my story and hoped that you were blessed by it. Yes, I think it is Titus 3:9 that really sounds like the passage that I was referring to. Thank you.
Xavier