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What About Women Elders?

Seems to me that if appointing anyone to the church office of elder or deacon– man or woman– would significantly divide the church over whether such an appointment was forbidden by the Bible, the better part of wisdom is to avoid such action until the church can act with unity. The New Testament is clear that church leaders need to be above reproach so that by their own example they can encourage others to submit to the truth and authority of the Word of God.

Having said that, let me explain why I am not quicker to come down on one side or the other.

Over the last few decades I’ve seen how divided church scholars, pastors, and lay people are over this issue. Some believe that the New Testament plainly says that the church offices of elder and deacon need to be filled by men who are “the husband of one wife.” Others counter that the Scriptures never directly say that these positions must be restricted to men, but rather uses masculine terms because men would have been the most natural choices for such responsibility in first century communities.

One side points out that the Apostle Paul says that he does not allow a woman to have authority over a man. The other side replies that what Paul means is that he does not allow a woman to usurp authority over a man, and in the process chooses a word for “authority” used only one time in the New Testament (1Tim 2:12). According to Strong’s Lexicon, and Vine’s Word Studies, this word can mean either (1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself ( 2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic (3) an absolute master or (4) to govern, exercise dominion over one.

Others say, rather than trying to take our stand on arguable issues about what Paul said, let’s look at what he did. For example, they might point out that in last chapter of Paul’s letter to the Romans he showed that, over time, men and women worked together in serving the needs of the church. As Paul ended that letter he wrote, “I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant (servant is the same word translated elsewhere deacon) of the church in Cenchrea, that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also. Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, who risked their own necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ. Greet Mary, who labored much for us. Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. (Rom 16:1-7).

Once again, however, there has been a lot of debate on the significance of this passage. While there is general agreement that such a passage, along with the rest of the New Testament, shows the partnership of men and women in the early church, scholars disagree about whether Phoebe was a “servant” who held the office of “deacon”, whether Junia was a woman, and whether Junia was an apostle in a formal sense or rather a “sent one” in a general manner.

Together with so many others, I’m forced to conclude that when principles of historical, grammatical interpretation are carefully used the issue remains unresolved with people on both sides. In other words when every effort is made to determine what the biblical text meant in the time and place in which it was written, and when every attempt is made to do justice to the inspired words that were chosen, it seems that the text is open not only to legitimate issues of interpretation, but also differences of application.

I’ve noticed that many of the most conservative among us have concluded over the last couple of decades that we can make a better case for women deacons than women elders. Part of our openness has to do with Paul’s comments about the servant/deacon Phoebe. Yet, in other places Paul’s list of qualifications indicates that Deacons must also be “the husband of one wife.”

In addition, the evidence for whether the Bible intends for church offices of elder and deacon to be restricted to men only is confused not only by church history, but by the more recent actions of missionary-sending churches that allow women to take positions of spiritual leadership on the mission field that would not have been permitted at home.

Unfortunately by standing in the middle in an attempt to respect the whole counsel of God; by trying to say no more or no less than a historical, grammatical interpretation calls for; and by trying to respect the consciences and faith of individuals and congregations on both sides of this issue; I end up doing a half-step dance with a changing culture while stepping on the toes of all sides.

But what I really believe is what I began with. What is most important is whether individuals and congregations are willing to defer to one another so as to take the position that they believe is most consistent with the authority and spirit of Scripture.

So that’s where I take my stand-and dance…

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43 Responses to “What About Women Elders?”

  1. macsisson22 says:

    Thank you so much for your valuable insight on all of the topics we have touched on since I have been a part of this blog, and especially your response today. Your honesty, integrity, and openness are truely an example of what true Christianity is all about, the struggle to know better our unsearchable God. Love ya in the LORD brother!

  2. sitsathisfeet says:

    Mart I believe what you are saying is right. We should not cause division over our views of roles, but wherever possible reside in peace and build up the body of Christ. We must approach it all humbly with a servanthood attitude. I read some of the booklet A Biblical View of Women In Ministry and agree with a lot of that. It is true we are both equal spiritually before God, and have the calling to serve Him in whatever capacity He is calling us to. If we approach the matter humbly, prayfully asking God to lead us to the servanthood our particular gifts enable us to. And then as in the booklet(ie above) “no door can be shut that God has opened, and no door opened that God has shut.” Our Pastor is always challenging us as to “what have you done for the Kingdom today?” So our focus is not on particularly our roles as men and women, but our servanthood to Christ.

  3. NDgal says:

    After thinking some more about this issue and doing my Bible reading this morning, I was reminded again that the scriptures really are the Living Word. The Spirit speaks to each of us differently at different times in our lives and I think we just need to be most concerned about ourselves following what the Spirit says to US and less about what it should say to our neighbor. For instance, I believe it is wise and best for ME to work part-time out of the home. It allows me to be with my young children more and yet also helps my family out just enough to keep us free from falling short on proper necessities. I don’t find fault in women who are home with their children full-time nor do I find fault in those that work outside the home full-time.

    When I was first married, my husband drove me bananas. He is an extrovert and sometimes I just wished he would “chill” a little more —ha, ha! So I used to pray “Please Lord, just let him find comfort in PEACE.” Then finally, my prayers changed to “Lord, please give me more patience today. Open my heart and mind to be more understanding.” Amazingly, the change was immediate. I was shocked and chagrined to find that it was ME who needed to change after all.

    Throughout my life, the wonderful and amazing Word of God has spoken to me through the Bible in different ways. That is why I have a hard time finding a whole lot of fault with other denominations… Do we really think that Jesus is going to some day come and take only the Lutherans? Or only the Baptists? Or only the Catholics?

    I just get uncomfortable when we clobber each other with such a sacred instrument. Kind of like when Jesus was clobbered for healing the sick on the Sabbath because it was written a certain way. Who am I to pass judgment on these things?

  4. SFDBWV says:

    rdrcomp, well said. NDgal, You are very correct. The Word of God is a Living thing and teaches us all at different levels at a time when we are able to understand and accept the Word or scripture.

    It occured to me while thinking about the last couple topics, The Catholic Church doesn’t have this problem at all. Many women have came through their membership to achieve public admiration, even greatness. As servants to needy people. Not concerning themselves with being in any “position” other than serving Christ.

    I must keep that concept in mind. And serve Christ in whatever capacity HE sees fit to use me in. Not worry about wether someones feelings get hurt.

    A few posts ago we were discussing how much church had let people down and how so many were seeking their own way of doing church. It seems to me if God fearing men filled the churches and filled the offices each church needed. This would not even be a subject to discuss. As men have stayed home and let their wives take the kids to church without them. Men have made a vaccancy in every congregation.

    It also seems that as a people we have completely lost direction and no longer are able to know what’s right and wrong.

    God will raise up people for HIS purpose. Not ours. The Holy Spirit will select people to fill the needs of the church. Wether man or woman if GOD calls that person to any position how could anyone succeed in stopping GOD?

  5. Wayneleman1949 says:

    Hi Mart. After years of study (beyond the halls near the Arch on LaSalle St. where you and I sometimes discussed things), I pretty much conclude the same things you have. I have been dismayed by deep divisions among Bible-believing Christians over these issues. I don’t think that pleases God. I think he wants us to disagree agreeably, lovingly. I have been so concerned about this that I’ve set up a blog… to try to help those who debate the issues to listen to each other better and love in the process, true biblical love which we are instructed so clearly (no doubt about its interp!) in the Bible to act out.

  6. daisymarygoldr says:

    Whether it is at home or at church: Without Christ we “surrender” in defeat to remain miserable under the “curse”. With Christ we “submit” in love and enjoy a life freed from the curse! Sinful women desire to overpower their husbands, and sinful men tend to oppress their women.

    Strong’s Lexicon, and Vine’s Word Studies defines authority means to kill but Christ redefines authority in Luke 22: 25, 26.

    Speaking of women elders, do you know who the Apostle to the Apostles is? Mary Magdalene, the woman who was healed of 7 demons. Do you know what the Rabbi told her? “Go preach my resurrection to the whole world”. Wrong! He said, “Go find my brothers and tell them…” who then went out and preached it to the whole world!

    Having said this, the church back home that I keep talking about, have many wonderful women of God, who have dedicated their lives to serving in the house of God. Without bothering about an official title, day and night they humbly persevere in teaching the Bible to children and younger women.

    God speaks to us very clearly and His instructions are straight and easy. In our desire to fulfill our carnal lusts we find it hard to obey and split words to its every syllable. So, when God created us as male and female He saw His masculine and feminine characteristics expressed in man and woman and approved it as “good”. Happy is that marriage and church where these personality differences is acknowledged, the respective roles are accepted and fulfilled to the best of our ability for God’s ultimate glory!

  7. SFDBWV says:

    Thank you, daisymarygoldr.

  8. believer3 says:

    Very good discussion.

    It may be however, that the subject is a tad more complicated than some give it credit for. Just a few observations:

    1. The Gk. word translated today as ‘deacon’, did not mean deacon in the beginning. That did not happen for a few hundred years. Originally, it meant minister, which is what Paul called anyone who served in leadership, including himself. “Deacon” is a transliteration of diakonos. I find it confuses the original usage to translate diakonos as deacon in some places and not in others. I don’t think we should use it at all except in our individual church structures if we choose, understanding that it is a transliteration and adaptation of the Greek.

    2. The Gk. word translated today as ‘elder’ was not considered an office or official position at the time. It also was tightly cued in with the meaning of one who was older in experience as well as age.

    3. It seems to me that to rest the whole issue of female restrictions on an idiom of the ‘anyone’ of verse 1 needing to be a ‘one woman man’, thinking it means required marriage or men who are married, is very weak. This idiom I believe is fairly world-wide and carries the meaning (even in English) of being a faithful person in marital relationships.

    4. In addition we really have no other place in Scripture where such a restriction is clearly spelled out. It always must be read into the meaning of, the meaning of, something as in 1 Tim. 3.

    While I think conversation, and some Scriptural debate is needed on this question, in the end all Mart is correct that such preferences in interpretation are not going to be settled overnight, and it may be a helpful bit of wisdom to not condemn (or worse) those who choose to handle it differently in their church.

  9. donjo says:

    FWIIW, I do not see the leadership in the early church as being an office, rather it is a ministry. The difference is that there is not an “office” of a elder, rather there is a person who acts as an elder because he/she has been given the spiritual gift and recognized by a congregation as having that gift for them.

    P.S. I do see the 12 as having offices, as there needed to be 12 to map to the 12 tribes.

    The term often translated as “one women man” in 1 Tim 3 and Titus 2 was a Greek idiom that was applied to both men and women and meant faithful spouse.

  10. poohpity says:

    I have said for a long time I bet the Lord cries daily over what we have done to His Will for our lives as followers of Christ. We have these kinds of discussions while a child goes hungry or has no clothes. We sit in our church while someone suffers. We wear the best clothes to the Sunday meeting while we cut each other off in the parking lot. We look at every sin that SOMEONE else is committing while refusing to look at our own. We show no mercy or justice to others when we have been shown so much. Even the world is kinder to each other than we are. We wonder why no one wants to come to our churches because we have caused a closed community of back stabbing, cynical, and disrespectful people.

    I do not believe Jesus sat in the synagogues and taught or listened to sermons every Sunday and never healed, feed, loved and let people know how much he cared for them. It is the same thing all the time in the countries with an affluent society we do not have a clue.

    Those who discuss these issues are still needing to be fed with milk because they do not have a clue. I am so saddened by the lack of unity in the body that represents the Lord I love. There will never be anyone to ever convince me that the Lord will not use male/female to achieve His purposes while we are all sitting around discussing. What a shame! If we follow Paul or Peter or whoever we are not following the Lord and we miss the whole point. Who really cares if there is a female elder or the music is to loud. That is not the point!!!!!

  11. ferdfeola says:

    We worry so much about the peripheral things and never focus on our own core issues. The Apostle Paul was speaking to a specific community, with unique situations, it was not stressed in all his writing, but Christ was. I’m not opposed to women serving in leadership, many are far more qualified with vision, compassion, integrity and resolve to serve God. We must focus on the core teachings and be united and never let peripheral issues divide us.

  12. uncertain says:

    I’ve been reading this blog for about 6 months, and greatly appreciate the refreshing perspectives Mart De Haan offers. I grew up in a very legalistic environment and have questions about my faith. The apparent gender inequality in the Bible is one of the issues I struggle with.

  13. wretch-like-me says:

    poohpity, I’m with you all the way!

    uncertain, anyone who does not struggle with their faith is not taking it seriously enough. God Bless You! Hang in there.

    rdrcomp, thanks for your second post. It’s real. I appreciate your honesty.

    NDgal, been there, done that, bought the T-shirt and the coffeecup.

    Marti, High-5. Love yah, brother. Keep it comin’

  14. wretch-like-me says:

    PS, Would appreciate prayer for a brother in need. Especially at Noon Mountain Standard Time. Pray for God’s Grace, Peace, and Wisdom.

  15. ellavl says:

    I woke up last night with this thought on my mind:

    God made man first. The old testament came first, with the strictness of the law, and the all-powerful authoritarian nature of God.

    God made woman second. The new tesament came next, with the mercy and grace of Jesus, with the love nature of God.

    Man and woman are the two sides of God. Neither is intended to stand alone. They should work together for the salvation of mankind as does the bible (old and new testaments.)

    Whether there is a man or woman in a position of authority, that person should not rule by his or her own power, but by the authority of the Holy Spirit.

  16. pegramsdell says:

    Jesus said, the poor will always be with you, Then I’m thinking He is asking us what our motive is?
    You know, how you live at home will spill out on your church life. Our relationships with our spouses and children will always affect our church relationships and our relationship with Jesus.
    If we are good with Him, then most likely we will be good with our families and church.
    Praying for wisdom doesn’t hurt either.

  17. Ted M. Gossard says:

    I love your thoughts here, Mart. Excellent post!

    I believe our callings can differ in this, as well. The denomination Deb and I are members of has ordained women to the ministry the past thirty years. I would highly recommend a book by the title of “The Blue Parakeet” for understanding the reading of God’s word, which would lead to this understanding and conviction.

    But your last point is the best of all. In all things, love (charity). Our unity in Christ is never at the expense of truth, but it trumps the differences of those who are committed to Scripture as the word of God.

  18. SFDBWV says:

    Wretch-like-me, I will remember you today in prayer especialy at noon mountain time.

    What is the fruit of the topic? Has it produced unity for the purpose of CHRIST? Or has it created strife and disharmony? What has the topic created in church? Have people been enlightened or have they been divided?

    Are we Christians putting up a united fight against the Devil or have we joined confusion with our faith?

    Since the Protestant faith is made up of many different doctrines. Then let each choose for themselves about women serving in leadership possitions. If they can’t agree or have no leading from the HOLY SPIRIT, then perhaps drawing straws would solve the problem.

    “A house divided against it’s self will not stand.”

  19. poohpity says:


    Good idea about drawing lots or throwing dice or flipping a coin. That was how a lot of things got settled in the bible, we could apply it and see if it works. LOL To watch major issues determined that way would be a hoot. If it were let go of afterward. I wonder if the apostles rather than choosing the 12th that way would have waited for the Lord to choose Paul, just a thought.

    I think if we were more in tuned with the Spirit our house would remain united. It would seem that the divisions are mostly caused by those who do not walk closely with the Lord because they demand their own way. Just an observation.

  20. SFDBWV says:


    In the Old Testamant the priests wore a special vest with objects on it. Somehow they would use these objects to determine what God’s will was on certain matters.

    I have looked in vain for such an useful guide. But the only guide I have found so far is the Living Word of God and HIS “still small voice” inside my heart.

    I know I say it a lot, but “self” is always the problem.Any person who desires a special position in any church isn’t the humble servant. But is seeking public recognition for themselves. True of any gender.

    I have heard it said by many biblical scholar’s that Paul should have been the 12th apostle. I guess even then at the very begining of our faith we made mistakes.And were unsure of ourselves.

    I will share with you that I have audibly heard the voice of God on a few occations. The first time was a chastisement the next couple were encouragements for me. But the still small voice in my heart is different. HE lets me know by a full and total understanding of the matter.

    That knowledge comes under attack from people who confuse the issue and cause doubt to enter. The devil uses people very well. And he uses people we may think are Godly. That adds authority to the confusion.

    The armor of God is our defense. Prayer and meditation on any subject with the Word of God as our guide will always produce the best results.

    And like you Deborah, it is just my observation. And works for me.

  21. donjo says:

    I have read that the Urim and Thummin were 2 coin-like objects that (in our terms) had Yes and No on each side. Both were thrown and they had to agree for Yes or No to be the result; if they differed, then it was no response; we can see these results in the story of Saul. But they were not used to decide how to understand Scripture.

    As I understand Scripture, leadership in the new covenant church is supposed to be based on being gifted by the Holy Spirit, and not based on race, wealth, or gender.

  22. poohpity says:


    I thought it would be humorous rather than being a etched in stone kinda thing. You know times like these in this world the way it is we have to find humor and I know the Lord has humor because He asked us to have an abundant life which includes some humor!! Smile you never know who’s life you may light up. Right now in my life I am trying to find the Joy and humor as much as I can or I may go nuts. Oh never mind I already am nuts, lol!

  23. NurturingLife says:


    Thank you for sharing your inspired view.

    I really believe that the Holy Spirit has given you this illustration concerning the way God intended men and women to harmonize and each freely contribute to the relationship according to their unique differences.

    I also agree with you and have seen in Scripture and through personal experience that the power to lead and take responsibility indeed comes only from the Holy Spirit.

    Another thing we could keep in mind is to remember our first priorities. When men or women sense a call to take a position of authority in some capacity, it should be carefully and prayerfully tested and not require any negligence regarding their first responsibilities.

    For example, both women and men should not neglect children or duties at home to accept a “call” if children or family responsibilities would suffer. Then the “call” is not of God…or, for that matter, if any other compromise is required concerning our relationship with God.

    In other words, would it be right to neglect our own mother who is a widow in order to minister to other women who are widows?…or neglect the needs of our own children (in spirit, body, mind, or emotions)in order to minister to orphans?…Jesus told us that the poor would always be with us…and that the important thing was to follow Him, yet a ministry to orphans and widows is also a priority for believers and even demonstrates the works of real faith. Nevertheless, those who minister must be free to minister and not neglectful of other responsibilities.

    One way this calling has been fulfilled is by ministering as a family and including our children in our plans to encourage the less fortunate. Ministry then becomes a way of life instead of a religious office.

    In any case, our works must definitely be Spirit led or qualify as “fithly rags” in the sight of God.

  24. plumbape says:

    An old timer was out walking in the woods one day when he heard this female voice. He couldn’t see anybody but all of a sudden he saw a frog that spoke to him. He picked up the girl frog who said “I was a beautiful princess that has a curse and if you kiss me I’ll turn back normal”. I will be forever in your debt. The old timer puts the frog in his pocket and after walking quite a distance she ask if he was going to kiss her. He said well at my age I think I’d rather have a talking frog!

  25. daisymarygoldr says:

    If love and grace is the need of the Body, then that is what we shall have! “Undeserved love is grace” i.e. if we want to love like Christ loved us…

    Wretch-like-me, you get the honor to lead all of us through this. Your brother Marti rightly deserves your High-5 and love. How about passing that over to me, an undeserving sister in the Lord?

    Mart, you deeply realize the need for grace… and love the company of those who think like you. Don’t the pagans do the same? This is the love and kindness of the world: they love those who love them and are kind to those who are kind to them. How then are you any different than those whom you do not like? So, for a change, how about showing some love to those who think they have mastered spiritual living and do not deserve to be loved?

    The poor we will always have…don’t know what pegramsdell is trying to say, but poohpity, let me tell you this: it is much easier to love the poor than to love undeserving people sitting and doing nothing inside the churches. Maybe the Lord wants you to show mercy and reach out to those fellow Christians who are lost within His own house! It is very difficult to love our own (family and church) when they do not love us or do not agree with us, or may not deserve our love, isn’t it?

    Being guided by the “one and same” Holy Spirit, when we all follow the “only way” only then unity will be produced…SFDBWV will be happy, we will all be happy and certainly God will be happy! This is indeed a fallen-world that refuses to follow God’s ordained order for gender roles and yes, the instruction in the Bible may seem strange and contrary to the ideals of the world, nevertheless, God still wants us to obey Him and follow His words that never change!

  26. donjo says:

    When one sees the puzzling verses in context, especially 1st century context, then the idea of gender roles mostly vanish, except for physical attributes of the genders.

  27. poohpity says:


    I do love them too! I guess I wish they would love me! I was calling for them to stop criticizing me and look in the mirror at their own behavior before they look at my flaws. I love you very, very much daisymarygoldr and I enjoy your posts so very much. Forgive me if you think I have ever left you out. You always give me honest things to think about and I pray for you a lot and am very thankful for your prayers. :)

    Thanks for the laugh it was needed!! You know how I feel about warts, lol, from all the frogs I have kissed thinking they my be princes.

  28. gr8grannyjacobs says:

    And Jesus Wept?

  29. wretch-like-me says:

    Dear DaisyMaryGoldr,
    Please forgive my oversight, you’re absolutely right about the role of Mary Magdalene and the resurrection. My lack of recognition for you will be more than made up by Our Lord’s pronouncement.

    “Well Done, My Good and Faithful Servant!”
    (otherwise, I owe you a hug and a gold star!..lol)

    thanks as well to all who prayed today at my request…
    no word yet on God’s answer.

  30. Gena says:

    In all the churches ever attended, never did I see a woman hold a prominent office or stature. What I did observe were mostly wives of pastors who seemed happily content with their roles. Although now that I think of it.. I have friend who as a woman was appointed Director of a SS class and never have I known a person who had to battle more against ignorance or face constant critism as she did. To this day she no longer presides over the group, but continues to carry on a ministry founded in loving memory of her deceased daughter. Her ministry seems well known through out the world and missionaries call on her for support. She is been able to meet most of their needs consistently. I believe the reason for her success is not because she is a woman, but because she is faithful to God and in everything she does, is lifted up in prayer. By the way, her husband faithfully follows and assists her…. theirs is more a team than the “man presiding over the woman” thing.

  31. Mart De Haan says:

    daisymarygoldr, maybe it’s too early for me to think of an answer. I’ll readily admit that there is far too much pagan, pharisee, and “whatever else” in me. But beyond that, your questions hit me like the proverbial, “Have you stopped beating your wife.” Am realizing more and more that once the conversation starts, I serve best by getting out of the way. I’ll try to keep your corrective in mind.

  32. daisymarygoldr says:

    poohpity and wretch-like-me, It is raining love and grace and I’m drowning:) Thank You! …not sure if He’ll recognize me as good and faithful servant …if I was blind, there is no judgment, but because I claim to “know and see” I’ll be judged with every word that I utter here:( But, it is not about me or my comments…Today I am here with you and who knows, tomorrow I’ll be gone. Hence, it is not yours or mine… but His opinion that counts. So, please, do not consider your own, as the enemy. If we disagree and divide there is no love and grace within us for the world to see. It will only cause more confusion to someone from outside who might be looking into this blog while searching for truth and that is exactly what our enemy wants. In response to SFDBWV’s comment regarding the fruit of this topic, the point I am trying to make all of us see is that, we certainly disagree in our opinions about women elders but should agree with His opinion to remain united as the body of Christ!

    Mart De Haan, don’t know about any wife-beating proverb and I’m sure you are not one?! You have dodged my question but hey, I don’t give up that easily either:) I’ll wait… for as long as it takes for you to get back with an answer!

  33. poohpity says:

    Proverbs 10:12-14

  34. Jwigg says:

    I often wonder how much of the present debate about women and leadership in the church is a reaction to the trenchant feminist and secular humanist criticism of Judaism’s and Christianity’s teachings and practice towards women.

    The case for a biblical patriarchal social structure is sustainable in my view. However, history is littered with examples both within and beyond the Judaeo-Christian tradition of patriarchy being used as an excuse for the ill-treatment of women.

    If nothing else, the accusations of modern feminism and secular philosophers should make us read the Scriptures very carefully to seek a clearer understanding of God’s intentions for the role of women in His church.

    A contrasting emergent view of the role of women in religious activities is that presented in neopaganism where much is made of the goddess figure. In a culture where God [and his followers] are treated as defendants in the dock of this world’s court, we must have a biblical response to the charges laid against the church by the world.

  35. desert rose says:

    Mart, I agree that both sides have points to be considered and I feel that if it is an issue for an individual then they are in the wrong church. My husband and I left a our church (after being there for a long time) because they voted in a pastor, who had not preached for 12 years. He quit preaching because he had been counseling a woman in his church and committed adultery with the woman. He divorced his wife and left his family of many years. He had never received counseling or reconciled himself to his family. When we discussed it with him he said “If I had the support of the deacons this wouldn’t have happened.” I almost dropped my teeth. The point being – we left since we did not believe he should be put in a position of trust. Especially since he did not take personal responsibility but blamed it on the deacons.

    Just thought I would share it with you all. That position of course is just as contraversal as it is for women taking a place in the church.

  36. He_died_so_I_may_life says:

    Why did Jesus only call men to be His disciples? It’s not because women didn’t followed Jesus.

  37. l8dydi08 says:

    Mart, Jesus is our example in every situation. He chose 12 disciples to finish what He started on earth–go make disciples! He did not exclude anyone. But He is a God of order, not of confusion. Go back to Genesis and see how sin was brought into the world. God called Adam to respond because he was supposed to be the head and responsible for his wife’s actions. Today, the world has infiltrated the church, just like prophecy has predicted. The natural order of things the way God set them up has changed. Leadership in the home and the church is in chaos, because people have kicked the God to the curb and have decided to improve on God’s plan with there own. Women have listened to this so-called Women’s lib movement, and they no longer respect or are they grateful for the uniquely blessed position that God has place them in. Good examples: Adam’s wife Eve; Abraham’s wife Sarah; Isaac’s wife Rebeckah. These women usurped their husbands, and because of this history we are still reaping the consequences today. God’s plan was the best then and is still the best today. You cannot improve on what is perfect.

  38. kidskards says:

    One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)(1Tim 3:4-5)

    I believe these verses prove “men only” unless God changes His mind about who is the head of a household and who is the head of the wife (Eph 5:22-33)and whether or not an elder must be able & allowed to teach.

    Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. BUT I SUFFER NOT A WOMAN TO TEACH, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1Tim 2:11-15)

    A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, APT TO TEACH; (1Tim 3:2)

    Wherever men abdicate, women will fill in (being created as helpers to men). Just look at the visible church of today. God restricted the woman’s role so that men must step up. Abdication of Biblical headship began with Adam, was substituted for by authoritarianism under the curse, and has evolved into egalitarianism under the more recent influence of Satan’s latest lie:”political correctness”. God has given the Church rules to counteract the curse because the Church is not of the world.

    Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and THY DESIRE SHALL BE TO THY HUSBAND, AND HE SHALL RULE OVER THEE. And unto Adam he said, BECAUSE THOU HAST HEARKENED UNTO THE VOICE OF THY WIFE, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life; (Gen 3:16-17)

    With all due respect and Brotherly love to Mart; we should firmly stand for the Truth, not dance around it.

    In Christ

  39. poohpity says:


    Shall we live the curse the rest of our lives? When was Timothy written and to whom? What was happening culturally? Gosh when will the church grow and change? When will we learn that all issues about being in a leadership position require our minds and hearts to be on man and not God. The early churches had to address issues of being invaded by idolatry and obviously man still wants to be idolized.

  40. jamesthebondservant says:

    I have noticed that someone has mentioned different denominations whether or not they will be saved or not, I agree in prat and disagree in part. I was early on after being Baptisted in the Holy Ghost, that the Holy Spirit came down upon my heart in such away. He told me not to bring up the denomination but rather bring out the wrong to the “body of Christ” as a whole. There is truth and there is lies, Jesus Himself said that He desires obedience rather than sacrifice and that if you love Him you will obey His commandments, and apart from Him you can do nothing, but rather s/he that abide in Him will produce much fruit. This is the few things that are most important, the questions in which will be asked of you on that day. Did you accept Christ Jesus as your Lord and savior and did you repent from your sins. For the bible clearly indicates Jesus is the only way in and no other name other than Jesus in which we must be saved. The bible also clearly indicates that if you do not abide in Him you are a liar and the truth of God is not in you and that Christ never knew you. If you read Matthew 7:21-24 Jesus Himself says these words ~Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, (notice this next sentence what Jesus says), but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ (Now this is the contrast sentence upon the former sentence Jesus mentioned breaking it up in two parts)And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness. “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and (acts on them) may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock(Built His house on Jesus, “for there is no other foundation than that of Christ being our chief cornerstone in which the whole house is built upon.) In the book of Romans Paul mentions that not the sayers of the word are justified but the doers of the word. So first is your good confession of faith also in Romans and second is abiding in Christ as you are a new creature (1 Corinthians). Jesus said one must be born again of the spirit, also He said my Father seeks those who worship in (Spirit and Truth) We accepting as our Lord become a new creature in which we live through Him producing fruit unto righteousness through two things noticed the Spirit (The Holy Spirit also know as our helper and the second The Truth which is Christ Jesus. For Jesus Himself said my flesh is real food, the food is His word and my blood is real drink which is His Spirit and the Holy Spirit which are one sealing us against that day. If anyone would like to clean up this message of mine to make it more clearer it would be most welcomed. I am gifted in inspirational preacher over scribing if you get me. I pray that this would enlighten the eyes of those whom are blind, in closing I would like to share Jesus is not looking for dead works of being good He is looking for complete submission to Him only through the working of His spirit by humbling ourselves before Him accepting His gift of salvation and help. For remember what He said accept your righteousness surpasses that of the pharisee you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Christ came and died to reconcile the world to the God the Father because our own works without Him could never be enough! May God be with you all who love our Lord Jesus with sincerity and wait for His coming appearance. ~your servant, friend and brother in Him~

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