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Marriage Disconnect?

Have been working with our team to revisit a booklet answering the question, “What Does God Expect of Men and Women?” Together we want to be faithful to the intent and wisdom of Scriptures while applying its timeless principles to the changing circumstances of our lives.

One of the things some of us have noticed over the years is that many of us do not practice an “authority and submission” relationship in the manner that Christians of the first century might have. For example, the  Apostle Paul tells wives to submit to their husbands in all things.

Early in marriage, I remember trying to use my “headship” as a way of “getting my way” and to gain compliance from my wife. I no longer do this :-)… Neither do I expect my wife to submit to every idea I have for how our time or money should be spent. Yet I believe our mutual love and respect is far deeper today than when we were first married, and I don’t believe I am trying to dodge my responsibility to sacrificially love my wife “as Christ loved the church”– even though I often fail miserably in doing so.

I have some ideas about why this “marriage disconnect” from a first century pattern is happening but wish I could hear some discussion from you  on this issue.

PS Have added more of where I am on this in the discussion below (i.e. on the meaning of submit).

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160 Responses to “Marriage Disconnect?”

  1. bretnb says:

    I am single so this is from observation. To many men think that they must be totally obeyed by their wife.

    If I remember God made Eve as a help mate. To be by his side. I know that the husband is the head of the house. And if there is a decision that the couple can’t come together on the husband needs to be the last word. But he must do it with wisdom not “just to be right”.


  2. barbidoll33 says:

    I think it is hard to SUBMIT to another person when we are taught and continue to teach our children to be self sufficient and to be take care of themselves and not need to depend on someone else. Therefore we make our own decisions and are accountable to ourselves. It is hard to submmit to someone you dont feel you can depend on or who doesnt have your best interest at heart and is also only concerned about taking care of themselves and looking out for themselves.

  3. dep7547 says:

    I don’t believe that men have as much of a right to dominate their wives as we like to think we do. The Greek interpretation of help meet is our equivalent of a door jamb. Men and women are supposed to butt heads now and again. I know that I mess up at times–I also have a tendency to make things worse by trying to fix them.
    I grew up in a rather large family and I can never remember an instance of my father, grandfathers or uncles having demonstrated lordship over their wives. In fact, my parents chose to never argue in front of my sister and I–that is something I can respect because my wife and I seem powerless to avoid outbursts in front of our children. I also know that their marriages have endured the test of time. I have been blessed with the opportunity of celebrating my own 20th anniversary this year!
    My wife and I had a nasty blowout this weekend and she was 110% right about every point she made. This blog couldn’t have come at a better time as I reflect on the help meet that God has chosen for me. Thanks, Mart, for letting God minister to me again this day.

  4. mtman says:

    This is going to be a hot topic. I am well into my second marriage and couldn’t be happier. I don’t believe that we are to dominate anyone, especially our wives. I have lived long enough and gone through enough that I have come to realize that two do make one. My wife is an equal half and makes up for many of my shortcomings. The two of us have the Lord in the center of our marriage and our personalities and focus on him compliment each other. My first marriage was in haste and fell apart after 20 years. Took a lot of effort to get it that far. None of what I have now was present in that marriage. This marriage has lasted 23 years and we are even more in love now than when we first married. When the mutual respect, wanting the best for each other is applied it works or at least it does for us. While the husband has the last word so to speak, I would not even consider anything that wasn’t for the best for my wife. I think where we often get off track is by being to self centered and not selfless. Just my thoughts anyway.

  5. Robert Slone says:

    I know it sounds bad, but I am married for the third time. I have found that it takes both making the commitment to stay married. My first wife, who is also the mother of my two daughters, cheated on me with my “best friend” at our church. The way law worked at the time, I lost not only my wife, but the courts gave your kids to the woman and a weekend dad just doesn’t work the same as God intended for both the kids and the parents. The absent parent looses the most. The second, also cheated. The third, we have been married for over 21 years. The difference is that we both believed our vows were forever and we were in the relationship together, helpmate, soulmate, etc. We work together, not trying to get what we can from the other, but working together to make each others life better. Working hard to make all of our vows a reality. It is hard work that makes a marriage go through the rough times as well as enjoying the good times and as times goes on, it starts to become automatic almost. Just like our relationship with God, I wake in the morning and He along with my wife are the first I say good morning and talk with to start the day. I’m so blessed. I’ve been through the fire, but I came out the other side a better man, for me, God, and my wife.

  6. cherielyn says:

    My hubby & I will celebrate our 39th anniversary this coming Saturday. One of our sons, who is a very committed Christian, just went through a painful divorce last month. His ex-wife claimed to have accepted Christ a year before they got married, but it became apparent (no fruit) that she may not have had a genuine conversion. When she decided to leave our son could do nothing to change her mind. At first she agreed to counseling “as long as it wasn’t a Christian counselor.” Shortly after she decided that she would not even consider counseling. Not long after, he found that she had met someone, online, a couple months before she moved out of their home. She moved to another state to be with the person, less than two months after she ‘met’ him online! That’s scary!

    Instead of being bitter, my son just keeps telling everyone to pray for her because she needs the Lord. He encourages us to keep in contact with her (birthday & Christmas cards), because we may be her only contact with real Christianity.

  7. ttl7praz says:

    My husband and I will be celebrating 21 years of marriage on May 21st. I distinctly remember some time ago after we had really committed to following Christ standing up in bible study and boldly making the statement that I had no problem submitting to my husband because I truly felt that he was doing his best to follow Christ. You can imagine the looks and facial expressions of most of our fellow attendees. I cant recall if I go any amens except from probably the pastor. I am not going to sit here and pretend that the subsequent years were all wine and roses but I can tell you that one thing that I, my husband and my children have seen as a product of trying to live according to the divine order that God spelled out in his word is the peace that exists in our household and in our lives. My children have commented on the appreciation of being able to come home most of the time and not have to worry about some of the issues their classmates experience. I tell you there are measurable benefits to not only reading but trying our best to live by the word of God. You may not always hit the mark but God knows our hearts and blesses our efforts I believe as a means of encouragement so that, like Paul, we will keep pressing toward the mark for that higher calling in anticipation of one day receiving our crown of glory!

  8. SFDBWV says:

    I have to begin with a bit of truth an old Amish farmer taught me. While he was patiently listening to my youthful wisdom (ha ha) about marriage and divorce (this was a very long time ago). He very wisely said, when I was finished, said ” Well Steve, just remember not every marriage is made in heaven.”

    I have laughed over that statement and used it for years. In the perfect world we all marry the “right” person and live happily ever after. We all know that just isn’t so.

    Both my mother and father worked. My dad would bring his paycheck home and hand it to my mother. She did the banking and bill paying. Never once in my childhood did I ever hear them argue about money. They shared resposibility but each had their area of expertiece. Rarely did thoes areas overlap. But if they did I never heard them argue about who was the boss.

    It would seem that our society somewhere in the 60’s got confused about who to identify with as “head of house”. Because of culture shock some people had to find a definition and authority to answer the question. So we get to the best authority on the subject. The Bible.

    The Bible is filled with example, and explanation as to what the differences between the sexes are. And how each is to relate to the other. Each side of the issue will quote from scripture to strengthen their point.

    Adam needed a proper companion, and so God gave Him Eve. Out of his flesh to be his proper helper, and companion. Adam was the more experianced and had been with God longer. Which is why Eve was aproached by Satan instead of Adam, in my on opinion. Yet Adam was the more guility of partaking of the forbiden fruit. They co shared the sin together. Tho their paticular punishments were different, they co shared in the resulting effects. Together and also different.

    Genesis 3:16 “Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”

    How do we ignore this statement from God?

    Honorable men will not abuse the above mentioned statement to “lord” over his wife. But the statement clearly places the man in the role of head of the union. As a Godly husband his wife ( proper helper) aides him in all he does in order to be a blessing to him. As explained in Proverbs 31.

    A wise husband would seek the council of his wife in all matters that relate to them. As well as any wife that would be making decisions that affected them both. This is Godly wisdom.

    Yet a man is to remember that women are the weaker and treat her tenderly. Abuse is not an example of tenderness. If man is given any authority the abuse of such authoriity is still “abuse”.

    Just gotta say that if we are the “bride of Christ” as believers. Are we to then think that we are to be considered on an equal level with Christ, in authority?

    Maybe that is where our authority comes from. Maybe that is the true meaning of marriage, and example of our future place with Christ. Partners in authority.

    This is an area of understanding that is opening up a broader view for me….have to do more thinking and less talking.

    10 more inches of snow last night and today, 14 degrees. I am ready for spring!

  9. Mart De Haan says:

    Steve, as always I appreciate so much not only your comments but the spirit in which you make them.

    One question. What do you do with those who see the “ruling over” of this as part of the “curse of sin”– part of weeds in the garden, multiplied pain in childbirth, and death itself?

    Over the last couple of years I’ve found more and more Bible students acknowledging that the meaning of the “desire of the woman” and “rule over of the man” is similar to the same language used in Genesis 4:7. In this sense the “he shall rule over you” would amount more to a consequence of sin and a prediction rather than God’s prescription for marriage.

    If the text is meant to be taken in this way, then “ruling over” would be a sin-caused contrast with the original pre-fall relationship of man and woman. Such ruling would also need to be evaluated in light of what Jesus says about those who would be “the greatest in the kingdom.” As you know so well, he says that in his kingdom those who rule are as those who serve (Luke 22:26).

  10. postonc says:

    Submit seems to have a negative connotation which I don’t believe is accurate. We all submit to one thing or another in every decision we make. Either our own experience/desires or to advice/direction provided by someone else. As with any action taken by a team, it requires someone to make a final decision and everyone then needs to be committed to that plan. It’s like a bus full on folks who have multiple locations they want to go to. Everyone on the bus will have opinions of where the bus should go. Once everything has been discussed, the bus driver must identify where they are going and everyone submits to the plan. Critical to a successful plan with a husband and wife is that the plan should be in line with God’s decree’s and the husbands ability to relay that to his wife. The Bible gives us many examples where His advise/direction was not taken (ex. Abraham/Sarah) which had results that caused angst for many. The problem I have in my own life is when personal desires of myself and my wife are conflicting and the Bible does not provide specific examples… love your wife as Christ loves the church… what does that imply?

  11. poohpity says:

    Oh Steve,

    I do not often disagree with you but in some of this and older posts about the same issues I differ in opinion. LOL. Of course you may respond that I am not married now so what do I know. I hope you sense the humor and seriousness in what I am about to say. If men were the stronger of the sexes God would have aloud them to bear children. You do not even have a clue about weakness until you have carried another human being in your womb for nine months and then gave birth. Or if you have more than one child having them hang all over you while you are trying to teach them how to be civilized, clean the house, pay the bills, buy the groceries, do laundry, cook and the list goes on. So please do not even go there with the weaker of the sexes until you have walked in a woman’s moccasins.

    Now on the other hand I have had to play both roles. So I have also had to do the males role in our family, fix the car, work, protect, mow the lawn, cut the fire wood and then split it and be the spiritual leader.

    So in conclusion I really have to differ with you about the stronger and weaker of the sexes. In my honest summation each has a job and their strengths and weaknesses are determined by their lot in life. The scripture you quoted was from the curse in Genesis and I live under the Cross which canceled the curse. :)

  12. poohpity says:

    He gave His life for it!!!

  13. donjo says:

    I am a full egal and believe that the Scriptures are best understood in context to support mutual submission in marriage, that is, that marriage is best as a partnership and not a hierarchy.

    I also accept that some may differ from me in their understanding of Scripture and think non-egal marriages can work to the glory of God. I would hope such would be voluntary and not imposed and that it is realized that the practical success of a non-egal marriage will often depend on the husband’s spiritual maturity to NOT use the authority he believes he has.

  14. Laurielee says:

    To those of us who are not married, it’s a wonderful thing to read about those of you who have kept the course and are celebrating multiple anniversaries! Of course, there are situations in which both parties do not go into a marriage with the same level of committment or faith, which makes for the difficulties that many of us have faced. I hope I don’t offend any that are for equal rights, but it would have been wonderful to have had a marriage in which the man would have been the head of the household, and taken on an equal share of the grownup responsibilities, not moving from one mother to another, and falling victim to the lure of alcohol. Though it was also my fault for not seeing it. Today, I am fine on my own, and rather enjoy it, but I very much admire those who have lasted, and wish it could have been the same for me.

  15. SFDBWV says:

    It’s ok to differ with me Deborah. I actualy had a revelation moment why writting that post.

    Got my weaker vessel comment from 1 Peter ch 3vs 7, “Likewise ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honor unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.”


  16. kaliko88 says:

    The timing of this post could not have come at a better/worst time, which just proves to me once again it’s God’s timing. My marriage has a hit a very rough spot in just the last few weeks, and I am still unbalanced by it all. I do not know what will happen or if we can heal.

    With that in mind, and after thinking a lot on what is wrong, I can say that our disconnect came from a difference in connections to our faith, to the Lord. In the beginning both of us believed but had very little commitment. I was very confused about what I believed and what I thought about God, especially after college. But many things brought me back around to belief and not many years ago I recommitted my faith and found a good church family. My hubby, however, has gone further away, all the way to a professed disbelief. He resents my change and can be quite mean about it.

    Submitting, I think in this case, has actually done more harm. I have always been a little too submissive, too willing. I like to help, and I don’t like to lead. I will give my opinion but will almost always let someone else make the decision in many circumstances. The result in my marriage is, I seem to have encouraged a level of selfishness and laziness that can never satisfy. I now find myself having to rebuild my strength and to stand my ground on what I believe. I try to be gentle, but still it is often taken as stubbornness.

    Where is the disconnect? I think it’s more than trying to be self-sufficient. There’s also a mixture of pride and selfishness. If we believe, we like to think we’ve already learned the lesson the bible teaches. If we do not believe, we like to think we don’t need it and can do things better our way. And here in my marriage we have one of each belief. Actually, we are connected just in the wrong way. It’s a tug of war that will end with one or both of us in the mud. The only way to stay out of the mud is to stop pulling. And I fear it may mean one will simply let go of the rope and walk away instead of hanging on and helping the other across the mud.

    Maybe instead of a disconnect in marriage, it’s a distortion. Like both of us trying to paint a picture of marriage like we see in the bible, but using the same canvas and two different brushes. We’re each trying to paint our own picture over the other’s. We use the bible’s picture as a model instead of a template. It’s a paint by number set but we keep painting over the lines.

    So what is wrong, I think, is we do not act together. We do not move together. Where I have seen marriages work, they talk together, share, and then act as one. There are still differences, but there is still togetherness. Where it does not work is where one pretends to work with the other but is really trying to work it so they get their own way. Pride and selfishness.

    Boy I really am still unbalanced. I’m not sure I got this out coherently, but this is where my thinking is right now.

  17. poohpity says:

    I am not sure but that 1 Peter verse seems to address if there is an unbelieving spouse and how to act to bring them to faith by actions and not words.

    The whole thing about it is the commitment it takes to think of another better than yourself. I respect and admire all who have had marriages that last and yes someone has to take the lead. A good leader is one who knows how to serve and recognizes that God is the ultimate teacher, head and final authority in all things.

    I would love to be able to place my life in the hands of someone I could trust with the care of my life like the Lord loves and cares for me. I would love to respect someone like that but I do not and those who can are very blessed. I have that side of me that would love to have someone take over and be the stronger because honestly I have run out of energy. Like I have said before I have a very lacy side but I am not going to allow my heart to be broken again, so the leather stays on. The Lord knows that a lot of women would love to have someone that would die for them and that includes me.

  18. poohpity says:

    I totally understand the disconnect and your confusion. It is really hard in a relationship when the growth is at different rates and it seems that the more one struggles to bring the other to the same position the farther away they go. I believe that this is what Peter was talking about in 1 Peter 3:1-6 that Steve mentioned. It seems like when we have a hand of sand the tighter we hold our hand the faster the sand falls out but when we just leave our hand open the sand stays. God would love us to place everyone in His hands and open ours to release them to Him who does such wonderful things without our help.

  19. Mart De Haan says:

    Here’s a bit more of what I’m thinking.

    1. There is no clear indication of hierarchy in the pre-fall relationship of Adam and Eve.

    2. Jesus said that in his kingdom, the one who rules is as the one who serves.

    3. Paul instructs husbands to live their wives as they care for their own bodies. Then he tells the wives to “submit” to their husbands.

    In dealing with these inspired words, Bible teachers often point out that the Greek word for “submit” is a military term “hupotasso” that means to “arrange oneself under”. That rendering seems to imply submission to a superior.

    What we have not often been told, however, is that the Greek word for “submit” also had non-military meaning. Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, a classic tool of language, for instance, says the following,

    “Hupotasso”– “A Greek military term meaning “to arrange [troop divisions] in a-military fashion under the command of a leader”.

    But here’s the point. Thayer’s goes on to say, “In non-military use,it was “a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden”.

    If the second non-military meaning is in view in Paul’s admonition to wives, then we have the kind of attitude that is more in keeping with the pre-fall ideal of companionship and mutual help, than with the post fall curse of two people trying to control one another with the husband gaining the upper hand.

  20. Wordgazer says:

    Part of the problem with the “disconnect” from the first-century pattern is that we’re misunderstanding the first-century pattern. The New Testament speaks changes to an authority-obedience structure that existed in the first century. Working within that structure, God (mainly through Paul) encourages a change for Christians to a model in which giving to and yielding to one another is emphasized and authority-obedience is downplayed. The only time the Greek word commonly translated “authority” is used for husbands & wives in the NT, it’s in 1 Cor 7, in which Paul states that each partner in the marriage has authority over the other’s body. In Eph 5, the word authority is not actually used. The usual household codes are followed, but with major differences, the main one being that the husband and wife are compared to a head and body in a unity metaphor. In this unity, each party is to put the other’s needs first– the husband is to sacrificially love the wife, and the wife is to submit (or yield to) the husband.

    Authority-obedience marriages don’t work in the long run, and modern society has largely abandoned them. What really works is if each party puts the other first (which is the Christian model for ALL relationships). When a marriage is based on each “emptying him(her)self” of his/her own rights and working for the good of the other, (Phil. 2), then the marriage works. This is true whether the husband is nominally “in authority” or not.

    If both parties will not so empty themselves– when only one partner is following the model– the other can use it as a license to become very selfish and demanding. In that case it is actually often in the best interests of the selfish partner for the other partner to confront, or have the church confront, the selfish partner with his/her sin. The partner trying to obey God needs to see that what is in the best interests of the other may not be continually yielding to selfishness, but calling them back to Christlike giving and humility.

  21. SFDBWV says:

    Mart, thank you for your patience with me. In looking at the word rule in my concordance is see the word used over and over in the spirit of, dominion,reign,have power ect.. I have always been led to accept that God never changes. That every word of scripture is unchangeable
    Only my understanding of the matter is susceptible to change.
    If I look at the Word then I must look to see if God has said that the structure of husband and wife has changed. I have not found that to be the case. Equal in all matters except in physical strength and dominion in the union. 1 Cor 11:7″ : But the woman is the glory of the man.:8 For the man is not of the woman;but the woman of the man. :9 Neither was the man created for the woman;but the woman for the man.”

    However, if I look at marriage of man and woman in the earthly sense and see it as a shadow of the marriage of the Lamb with we, Christ’s bride. I see many similarities. I can be equal in authority but Christ remains the “Ruler”. I can then see how the “Virtuous Woman” can be applied to our actions as to doing all we can to serve Christ and cause others to see God honored.

    I think of the “rule over” comments to be a nessesary structure of fallen man. Just like when the people ask for a king. God had been their ruler. But when they rejected Him as their ruler he gave them a lessor ruler that would place them farther away from the freedoms God had intended for them to have. In a sense this is a curse also.

    In the matter of ” Greatest in the Kingdom”. To rule in any capacity is to serve. True rulers give all their time and energy to serving thoes whom they rule. By providing for all of their needs. Fixing all their problems. Taking care of what ever problem arrises. This is what it means to rule. A man that rules over his wife povides for her every need and is even willing to die for her. By serving not by being served.

    We have gotten the wrong idea of rulers from bad rulers. Not from Godly rulers. God rules,Christ rules, in the coming Kingdom we will co rule with Him. So by ruling we serve.

  22. cherielyn says:

    In coming back to the blog and reviewing my comments, I realized that a few paragraphs disappeared from my post. Don’t know how that happened and don’t know if I can reconstruct them as it’s been quite a few hours since I posted.

    In my son’s case, he tried, so hard, to be a leader according to Biblical principles. He was too giving and near the end his wife became extremely selfish. When he could no longer financially afford to give in to her whims, she lost interest in their relationship and left him with a staggering amount of debt. In hindsight, it appears to have been an unequal yoke. They apparently were not on the same team.

    Where I’m trying to go with this is that, without the commonality of both of the partners being Christians, marriage cannot work to it’s full potential. We need to be on the same page, working toward the same goal. Nothing works if we don’t work at it together. If we’re at the opposite ends of the rope, playing tug-of-war usually one will win and one will lose. But, in a tug-of-war marriage, both end up losing. There are no winners when marriage partners are at opposite ends of the rope pulling against each other.

    Today, too many people, including Christians, no longer seem to fully grasp the importance of wedding vows. When they repeat them, it seems that they are just repeating words without really having an indepth understanding of the commitment they are making. It’s a sad epitaph on our times. Nothing is sacred anymore.

  23. wretch-like-me says:

    How wonderful it is to have my thoughts expressed so well by others! Thank you all.

    I agree that our culture and that of the 1st century is literally thousands of years apart. Women are no longer property(except in some 3rd world places which still subscribe to those old world ideas)

    But, with every blessing comes responsibility. Freedom can be ‘freeing’ or frustrating.

    As always, I am reminded that viewing scripture with application today requires a ‘long-range’ view. Context is key but also ‘cover to cover’ context.

    Understanding how ‘Eden’ existed prior to sin and how Christ would have us return to that relationship where our only thought would be to please HIM is basic to our behavior. We were created to worship Him thru service to others. Would that we were all able to keep that foremost in our minds?

    God Bless You, All
    and Huggs

  24. narrowminded says:

    The concept here is to have both man and woman surrender their natural inclinations for their mate.
    As a man I must willingly surrender my life to the girl.
    The girl should be so confident in the life surrendered to her that she can willingly surrender her life in submission to the guy.
    These are heart attitudes not carnal practices.
    I believe there is a spiritual heirachy in place within the kingdom, like it or not.
    If accepted and lived out in the power of the Spirit this is a blessing.
    Carry on.

  25. daisymarygoldr says:

    I’m nowhere close… to match the long innings in marriage which you and the others here can boast of. But I have been married long enough to know what Paul referred to as the “mystery” that involves…two becoming one flesh- physically, mentally and spiritually! I am blessed with Godly grandparents and parents who modeled a typical 1st century marriage. Divorce was never a part of their vocabulary and neither is it mine. For my family, following the timeless Biblical pattern for gender roles even in the 20th- 21st century, greatly helps avoid “marriage disconnect”.

    My husband was not raised in a Christian family but accepted Christ before we got married. Right on the very first day, we made sure that both of us were on the same page…regarding a God-centered marriage. In no uncertain terms we agreed that what God has put together, no one… neither he nor I can split us apart. With that Spiritual principle, we enjoy a secure relationship in which there is no “I” but it is always “us”…which means post-marriage he does not go fishing or golfing with his buddies and I do not have any girlfriends to go shopping with or get-together for tea:) Although we do not have the moral support of our families…because they live so far away we are so grateful for the loving support of the church family who are always there for us and have greatly enriched our married lives.

    God has been good and by His grace we are doing fairly well on our own…with practically no help from our parents. We are very much dependent on each other and honestly, widowhood is one of my greatest physical fears…I always tell him to wait until I die… before he decides to breathe his last. Both of us contribute to the finances of the family but he manages the money and does grocery shopping, cleaning the yard, the carpets and the bathrooms while I sit there doing nothing but smile like a queen bee …no, I do all the cooking, the laundry, the dishes in addition to taking care of his needs and helping him raise our daughter. Being poles apart we do fight sometimes….like cats and dogs but we always prayerfully “submit”…no hupotasso (TY for the new word!) or military rule…but with love…not the mushy, touchy-feely love but the faithful, unconditional and solid Christ-like love!

  26. donjo says:

    I believe there is no requirement to interpret some verses as implying a hierarchy in marriage, one may choose to do that if they wish, but I do not wish to do so.

  27. poohpity says:

    Really liked your response.

  28. daisymarygoldr says:

    kaliko88, you are very wise and well balanced…you have rightly placed your finger on the exact “rough spot”- “Pride and selfishness”. I have been praying for you ever since you shared about your marriage on the Alcatraz page. From your posts I can see that you love God and “know” what it takes for two…to become one. Now all it needs is… prayerfully, depend on God to let that knowledge translate into actions. kaliko 88, I sincerely hope and pray that every problem between you and your husband will be resolved so that you will be restored to that initial love, peace and happiness which you found in each other…to enjoy a Christ-centered marriage that will last until death separates you apart!

  29. daisymarygoldr says:

    “I think it is hard to SUBMIT to another person when we are taught and continue to teach our children to be self sufficient and to be take care of themselves and not need to depend on someone else.”- Barbiedoll33
    That is the perfect answer for me… which differentiates 21st century vs. 1st century ideals that applies both to marriage and the Church!

  30. daisymarygoldr says:

    My greatest role model for marriage that mirrors the love of Christ for His Church is my Grandmother… who for 62 years of her life remained married but single. Having been given in marriage at the age of 14 she lived with my grandfather for a brief period of 3 years after which he walked out of their lives for good. Being neither divorced, nor widowed, she remained true and faithful to her unfaithful husband whom she never saw until the day she died. He died a decade before she died and when we heard about his death, she wept for months…as any lover would grieve and mourn for the loss of her soul mate. Back then I was just 13 and it did make me very angry…to see her waste tears for someone who did not deserve her or her love. To my impertinent Q she had simply replied “when you grow up and get married you will know what it means for 2 souls to become one”. I haven’t fully grasped that yet…however, I fully understand the lesson she taught me on “faithfulness”… the very basis of a covenant that defines a relationship in marriage and that of the Church with Christ!

    Just wanted to share this about my dear grandmother, just in case “culturally-sensitive” people get offended with what I share in my posts…

  31. gotosmith says:

    I believe the disconnect is like anything else God expects of us. We either do it because we’re good at it or we struggle because we’re not. This is an area that my wife of 15 years and I are good at and it’s a blessing but it makes us somewhat distant from couples who struggle.

    Of the couples we know (except for a conservative few)the wives usually don’t want their husbands getting “any ideas” because they typically have him where they want him (they think). That attitude stems from our societal immasculation of men regarding their God given responsibilities and typical covetousness which requires women to work outside the home. My wife wanted me to add that and “submission is easy because it relieves my burdens much in the way family men are suppose to find relief through submission to God”.

    God set up the authority structure for our own good much like other directives. Our own good is sometimes hard to recognize in the face of worldly deceit.

  32. sitsathisfeet says:

    I’ve been thinking about this subject of marriage, and my question was how does a christian marriage differ from a worldly marriage, those that may be successful too. And I came up with some answers first a godly marriage is a convenant between two that become one and God. I had always heard that you should put God at the center and head of your marriage. Recently I saw the christian movie Fireproof with Kirk Cameron and that was one of the things it said that rather than ‘a marriage contract’, as the world might view it, marriage is a convenant between you, your spouse and the Lord. We can look up example’s of covenants in the Bible to help us in this area. Also in this movie the Cameron character was “dared” to use the tools of sacraficial love and servanthood in his relationship, to learn about it and to see where it would lead his heart. I highly recommend this movie, based on biblical principles, for any couple experiencing problems who may be considering separation, or divorce. Another issue that was brought out in the movie was the idea that the character wanted out of a difficult circumstance, because he wanted “peace” – in other words he didn’t want the conflict or fight anymore. In the movie they said yeah, but you want the right kind of peace. and that wouldn’t be brought about by leaving the marriage. And I thought of two things: one when our Lord said I give you peace, but not as the world gives peace. And two after my divorce documents were final, one young woman asked me if I had peace, the worldly peace talked about in the movie. But, I had to honestly answer no, that I felt I had failed at my marriage, but even though I was not victorious in my marriage here on this earth, I was victorious in Christ! That was the peace I had, but not as the world give’s peace. I know the Lord is good, and he has a good plan for me. I don’t know if I’ll ever marry again, but whatever I do, I want to do it as unto the Lord.

  33. sjd says:


    I am having some trouble seeing your point. Are you saying that “authority and submission” is no longer to be followed, or that it is just different than most of us modern people have interpreted?

    In the past, I have seen it as being something that was intended even before the fall, (although we do not have much in description of that relationship) but that one of the problems was that as a result of sin, women would have a desire to rule over the man. I believe that you are correct that there is a battle going on over rulership. Sin distorted us as image bearers. Love for one another was no longer a priority. Self love became a reality. But does the battle over ruling now mean that there was never intended to be some sort of hierarchy of responsibility among equals, different roles? Doesn’t the Trinity even reflect that somehow? And we are created in the image of God. Even the body of Christ has different roles, although we are all one in Christ, none being of greater importance than another. Are the attitudes and actions of submission and the properly defined headship obsolete in marriage?

    I am not sure if your different definition for hupotasso makes a big difference practically. There still is an arranging so to speak, with a differentiation of roles or responsibilities. (““a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden”.) Your definition might give less “encouragement” for some men to abuse a military definition of lording it over their wife.

    1 Timothy 2:13 (NASB95)
    13 “For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.” Was this simply referring to order of creation or was there more involved in regards to leadership, to a hierarchy of sorts?

    Just some questions that I have for you. One last thought.

    The passage in Ephesians 5 is being written to Spirit filled believers, who by God’s indwelling and empowering will be able to love their wives, and “submit” to their husbands, as they make themselves available to Christ. Apart from Christ’s empowering they would not be able to, as Christ loved the Church, or as unto the Lord. (By the way I didn’t submit to Christ loving my wife through me this past weekend. I am thankful that there is forgiveness and a tomorrow, Lord willing.)

  34. kaliko88 says:

    I would dearly love to have my husband see this movie. Above all else it has the clearest explanation of why we need Christ that I have ever seen or heard. He needs to hear it. But I am well aware of how much he dislikes being pushed. I cannot even talk about my faith much because of how mean he can get. All I can do is live the best I can and love him, and present a picture of Christ that I hope will draw him away from his disdain and towards belief. In a painfully ironic twist, though, I was watching Fireproof by myself when he came and interrupted it to have The Talk with me. That movie now seems like a distant dream. Like a lost dream.

  35. Mart De Haan says:

    Those are good questions and the questions themselves show how important it is that we not make into doctrine more than we know.

    What we know, I think :-)… is that men and women were made wonderfully alike and different, to complement and help one another, so that together we reflect the likeness of God.

    It seems just as foundational to see that “marital dominance” of a man over a woman, or of a woman over a man is part of the curse of sin.

    Jesus redeems the relationship by showing us that in his kingdom, the one who rules is as the one who serves.

    Paul’s instruction for a husband to sacrificially love his wife means that both husband and wife are to submit themselves first to Christ and then lovingly to one another.

    Seeing only the “military meaning” of the word used for submit, rather than the “non-military” meaning of the word tends to reinforce a military kind of authority and compliance/discipline, rather a relationship of two people who have discovered their spiritual equality in Christ and who use whatever similarities or differences they have been given by God– for the good of the other.

    To the extent that we do this with the kind of love and respect shared by Father, Son, and Spirit then the relationship has been “redeemed/recovered”.

    As for masculine and feminine distinction, seems to me that the best case is for both masculine and feminine personalities to be filled with the spirit of “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.”

    That keeps us from thinking of either strength or gentleness as being distinctively male or female marks of distinction.

    I know this doesn’t answer all of the questions, but hope it helps you see how I’m trying to focus on what the Scriptures say rather than building doctrines on either “the problem passages” or “what we haven’t been told”… As you can see, am still in process on this.

  36. sjd says:

    Thanks Mart.

    I agree as I do not see the idea of “marital dominance” in Scripture apart from the result of the curse. It was not the intent. As the two become one flesh there is a better picture, one of the correct definition of submission. If we view how Christ loved the Church, submitting Himself, we see Him setting aside His rights as God Himself, to be obedient to the Father, and to die in our place on the cross. If anyone anywhere had a “right” to dominate, it would be God, yet He humbled Himself. As a husband, the concept of domination should be missing in our marriage. There are a “few” other things that need to show up however as I desire to lead by loving as Christ loves.

  37. SFDBWV says:

    Don’t think I like this reply function on the blog. It makes a scrambled mess of the thread of conversation, with all.

  38. Victorious says:

    The whole topic of authority of the husband would be a non-debatable issue if someone could provide scripture where husbands are told to be the authority, leader, etc. If this is ordained by God to be the “order” of a marriage, certainly we would find His words to that affect directed to husbands.

    Anyone know of one?

  39. donjo says:

    The only mention of God-sanctioned authority in marriage that I know of is in 1 Cor 7 where it is mutual, the wife having authority over her husband’s body and the husband having authority over his wife’s body.

    It is true that some people INTERPRET other terms as implying authority by the husband over the wife, but that is not a required interpretation and I do not make it myself.

  40. he4gaveme says:

    Cool, glad you said something, looks like it is fixed! Just press the F5 key (refresh) and it should look right.

  41. flanrak says:

    The problem is the idea of “headship.”
    Yes, Ephesians 5:23 says this: “For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.” However the Greek word for head does NOT mean authority– it means POINT OF ORIGIN. The church’s origin is in Christ, and Eve was formed from Adam’s rib.
    When we look at a word and assume that we know exactly what it means we get into trouble, and this is one of the classic examples.

  42. kaliko88 says:

    Thank you. The hardest part is swallowing the resentment, my own pride and selfishness, so I can still try to love him and show that love. It is very bitter. I guess that would make God’s Word the ‘spoonful of sugar’?

  43. poohpity says:

    As I have said many times before I am always blessed by your Spirit filled knowledge of scripture, Mart. You have always blessed me as the scriptures do with the love of Christ. Wow!!!

  44. daisymarygoldr says:

    kaliko88, I can understand that… If he has done and said mean things to you, it is only natural for you to feel resentful and bitter. Don’t worry, cast your burden on the Lord and He will take care of you. At this fragile point, it may not be wise to make him read the Bible or watch the movie. Just be there for your husband…it is easier said than done but then… remember it is not your love for your husband but God’s love for him…which you are simply allowing to flow through you. Been there and did exactly that…What you are going through is common to all marriages. One only needs to hang in there and not give up. No matter how impossible the situation, it will soon pass away and your life will be filled with fun and laughter- once again. Praying for you…

  45. believer3 says:

    Mart says, ” In this sense the “he shall rule over you” would amount more to a consequence of sin and a prediction rather than God’s prescription for marriage.

    The fact that this entire section in Gen. 3 comes after the first humans disobeyed God’s one command, lends credence to that. I believe that God is explaining to the man and woman what their lives will now be like since they choose to disobey Him. The only curses are levied against the serpent who is consigned to crawl on his belly on the earth, and the earth that is also cursed.

    SFDBWV says, ”We have gotten the wrong idea of rulers from bad rulers. Not from Godly rulers. God rules, Christ rules, in the coming Kingdom we will co rule with Him. So by ruling we serve.”

    Who are we to rule in the coming kingdom? We are to rule the fallen angels, not each other. It was never intended that we were to rule each other. The original plan was that humans were to subdue and guard the creatures of the earth. The word is not the same word as the word in Gen. 3:16. Mashal in 3:16 is harsh rule, dominion. This is a direct result of sin entering humanity.

    God does not mashal (dominate) us. He guides us because He is Truth. Husbands are not the embodiments of truth to their wives. Wives do not need to be mashal by their husbands. What is needed is that both husband and wife must learn from one another so that they may become as one flesh, so united in heart and mind that the two live as if one entity.

    Mart says, ”“Hupotasso”– “A Greek military term meaning “to arrange [troop divisions] in a-military fashion under the command of a leader”.
    But here’s the point. Thayer’s goes on to say, “In non-military use,it was “a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden”.
    If the second non-military meaning is in view in Paul’s admonition to wives, then we have the kind of attitude that is more in keeping with the pre-fall ideal of companionship and mutual help, than with the post fall curse of two people trying to control one another with the husband gaining the upper hand.

    Well said. A lot of heartache and hard times in marriage could be avoided if more couples saw it this way.

  46. rokdude5 says:

    Im currently in my second marriage. Though much better than the first, we had our issues. As much as my wife loves me, I really dont see myself having “lordship” over my marriage though at times I wish it was there. It has been a serious struggle for me at times until I realized what I wanted in my marriage was exactly that – “a want”. Ps 23:1 I dont have a ‘perfect’ marriage but I do have a beautiful marriage.

    Whats interesting to me is that I see our society becoming more in line in what God wanted whether it be the treatment of women or others who we see as “different” from ourselves. However, in regards to women, the divorce rate has never been higher. Perhaps we should go back to having one’s parent pick out a spouse even though the prospective spouse is “missing some teeth.”

    Also I found when I talk to people and ask them why someone should get marry, I get all sorts of answers. That person is “cute”, shes pregnant, comes from a good family, is a Christian, has a good job, etc.,etc. What I rarely hear is the one and only true bonafide answer -“I LOVE him/her”.

    The Bible starts with a marriage between Adam and Eve and the Bible ends with the marriage of Jesus and His church. Why would Jesus suffered, died, rose again and “marry” any of us? Simple – He loves us.

  47. sitsathisfeet says:

    Kaliko88 My heart goes out to you in your situation and I will pray for you, and that the Lord will continue to give you wisdom and understanding in your situation. May he guide you when to speak and when to keep silent, when to stand up and when to submit. The Lord is good and I know he will guide and direct you as you seek out His still small voice. Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

  48. OGramps says:

    I am sorry to be such a late post in this discussion but I have something that I just can’t keep. We have been doing the Fireproof Bible study and there was a key saying by Caleb’s father that keeps haunting me. He tells his son, “You can’t give her what you don’t have”, meaning the Love of God. Thinking about that over and over I think that it can be true for non-believers and believers. How can a marriage endure the test of time unless both are 100% committed? So where does the energy come from to consistantly give 100%? Only the love of God. The more we give the more He gives us to Give.

  49. wretch-like-me says:

    Marty, This is one of the best topics I have shared on your blog.

    We have heard a ’round-robin’ of views and the discussion ultimately comes back to the basic idea of reflecting God’s character in our lives.

    There is a good case for the argument that we can look to the example of the Trinity for inspiration in marriage, or for that matter all of christian life.

    God, The Father, is shown respect and love by both The Son and The Holy Spirit (who are equal in all respects to the Father). They are One God as we are to be One Flesh with our spouses and One Body in Christ.

    This happens ONLY when we humble ourselves and think more highly(first) of others. Christ humbled Himself to the Father by accepting His Role in the Plan of Salvation (As did the Holy Spirit).

    Can we expect or accept any less?

    Kaliko88: Speaking as one who was once walking the path of your husband, I praise God for my woman who echoed your situation. She was most effective at ministering to me when she prayed and lived a witness of gentle, quiet resolve that God would change me… And He Did!!!

    Hang in there and BELIEVE!

  50. Wordgazer says:

    A few notes about what the Scriptures *don’t* say:

    There is no scripture that says the husband is the “head of the house.” In fact, 1 Tim 5:14 uses a word about women in the home (translated “manage” in many versions) which makes it clear that she is just as much “head of the house” as he is.

    There is no scripture that says the husband is to “lead” or “rule” his wife. The word “head” in the ancient Greek does not include that as a primary meaning of the word.

    Though the wife is to submit, the husband is never told to “keep her in submission.” Christians are told to keep their children in submission if they want to be church leaders– but not to keep their spouses in submission.

    There is no scripture that says the husband has a final say when a decision is to be made in a marriage. In fact, every implication of the oneness God desires for spouses would indicate that decisions should be made by consensus.

  51. poohpity says:


  52. gr8grannyjacobs says:

    SFDBWV I agree it seems to seperate rather than bring together. Just a thought.

  53. Wordgazer says:

    Happy, I don’t think you are a “creep” and I don’t blame you for needing and being attracted by love that you are not receiving at home. It’s not our place to judge you. . . But be careful ok?

  54. poohpity says:

    I would love to say that love is a feeling but it is an action word that is displayed in actions. First, I would like to thank you for trusting your inner most thoughts with us about your friend. I have to share that being single there are many times I am attracted to men who have a close relationship with God but in most cases they are married. Being from a family where unfaithfulness was one of the key issues and when I was married that is also a behavior I also followed. I would like to give you a thought. If your friend and you both profess to be followers of Christ then to run like Joseph did away from what might lead to unfaithfulness. What may seem innocent now will end up being a temptation to both. I had a job with the most wonderful man that I was just overcome with emotion for but he was married and I literally had to quit because the feelings were overpowering. Unknown if they were reciprocated but there were enough glances that prompted me to think that there may be something there. I chose to just pick up and leave rather than fuel the fire. Please consider braking even the emails because satan can use even a little spark to ignite a fire. There is no judgment on my part because I have been there done that I pray that you will run. It will cause pain for the spouses and families of both and trust me it hurts to the bone. You do know the answers it is just hard to do what you know has to be done.

  55. rokdude5 says:

    okay….”missing teeth” can be take literally or figuratively. We all have our shortcomings. If you dont believe me, just ask your spouse!

    I can imagine a conversation from way back when the daughter (or son) is complaining about her new spouse because of missing teeth even though he has a heart big as all outdoors and will provide and protect her to the end of their days. (He even has some chickens, a burro and a goat!)

    And guess what… back then in spite of “missing teeth” that person WILL BE one’s new spouse no matter how the other party feels about it. Yet today we are free to pick who we want yet so many of us end up with a divorce.

    It wasnt my intentions to offend anyone but to illustrate that we look at the wrong things. I know…I did that.

  56. donjo says:


    I do not know if you want to pursue divorce, but you may have Biblical reasons according to David Instone-Brewer’s books on this, which I recommend HIGHLY.

  57. Wordgazer says:

    Thank you, Poohpity. You have articulated so well what I was feeling about the teeth comment, though I recognize it was only a joke.

    I wanted to add to my list of things that I don’t believe the Scriptures actually says:

    There is no place that I’m aware of where any human relationship is actually compared to the Trinity– including that of husband and wife. We as humans cannot fully understand the nature of the Trinity– but I am certain that the decision to Incarnate was one act of one Will; that the Son and Holy Spirit made the decision just as much as the Father did, and did not merely accept a decision made by the Father. (I don’t necessarily think Wretch-like-me meant to imply anything different; but I just wanted to try to clarify any possible misunderstandings.)

    If we do choose to compare any human relationship to the Trinity, we must be very humble and careful that it does not compromise an orthodox understanding of Trinitarian doctrine.

  58. Wordgazer says:

    Our posts seem to be out of order– I wanted to say I appreciate Rokdude5’s explanation about the “missing teeth.” I get where you’re coming from now. lol

  59. lb says:

    poohpity stated so well what I want to say. Run! I have never even looked at this site until today but had to log in and respond. I have been watching a close relative(divorced) become involved with a married woman(who is now seeking a divorce)and there is so much heartache, not just for the two involved but for many who are close to them. Many have given wise counsel but it has not been heeded, and the counsequences are continuing(loss of ministry, alienation from children, police involvement). I know how lonely marriage can be, but I urge you to seek after God–He will meet your needs. He is love.

  60. Mart De Haan says:

    Thanks so much for the help you’ve been to me and one another today.

    Am guessing I’ll be working on the subject for the next couple of weeks, but will try to move on to another subject/post by tomorrow morning. If anyone wants to keep this discussion going, I’ll try to keep checking the string here.

    Also hope that Happy senses the wisdom, care, and concern of friends who have been as honest with her as she has been with us.

  61. Mart De Haan says:

    You’re right. Don’t know what’s happening. Will check with our team in the morning Sorry.

  62. Laurielee says:

    I just read your post and couldn’t help but to respond. I know how hard it is to let go of someone you feel a closeness to, but in this case, it might be what you have to do. Sometimes when our own situation doesn’t look so good, it makes others look better than they really are. A good lesson I learned from a minister, is to make sure your behavior doesn’t give even a hint of immorality. What I mean is, if you’re a woman talking to a man in his office, make sure the door is open. If you’re emailing back and forth, is it something both your husband and the man’s wife can read? Could it be misunderstood in a way that could cause harm to loved ones…either yours or his? I know it’s easier said than done, sometimes backing away from those you care about is a wrenching experience. I hope and pray that only good happens to you!

  63. Loretta Beavis says:

    I have studied many of the booklets you have provided, along with reading the Bible and asking the Holy Spirit for guidance. I have come to understand that the word submit is one of those fiery darts of Satan aimed to cause me to doubt God’s word that He is the one into which I must, by faith, put my trust. Many women in the Bible submitted to their husband’s ungodly behavior but the Lord delivered them. No, don’t submit to spousal abuse, or what you know is against God’s will (listen to the still small voice inside you). I’ve been married more than once, and I’m married to an alcoholic now. However, I learned through “”When We Love Too Much” by Jeff Olson, that there is a better way for me to live. I did a self-examination and I have more joy now. When you hear the word “submit” put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. (Ephesians 6:11-13NKJ)

  64. daisymarygoldr says:

    rokdude5, I got your point and also agree about shortcomings. Aside: Thank you! …for explaining the “mystery” of the “missing teeth”…got into hot water for that one. You are right, back then when parents picked the spouse for their daughter… in spite of “missing teeth” that person will be one’s new spouse no matter how the other party feels about it. However, in most cases of arranged marriages, in which love is not the primary reason, the girl was not forced into marrying someone with “missing teeth”….she also had a say in making the decision…at least that is how it works in my family. Rebekah in Gen 27:57-58 is a perfect example.

  65. sjd says:

    I am thankful for this forum where we can speak our convictions in love, seeking to grow in our availability to serve our King. This however can be a difficult forum to address all these issues without being somewhat misunderstood. I understand that when we use words like submit or authority, a wide range of responses rise up, some birthed out of incredible pain from abuse. But I feel I must respond. Let me know if I am way off.
    In an attempt to correct the abuses of submission and authority, some seem to be throwing out the Biblical teaching of submission and authority. Some have spoken rather boldly about the lack of teaching on leadership in Scripture in regards to the husband, others questioned the concept of headship, and submission. But they have also made good points that challenge us.

    Victorious, I believe that the concept of husbands leading is clearly seen in the passages on headship and submission, seen in Ephesians 5, Colossians 3 and in some other passages stated below, amongst others.. I believe that “head” does refer to authority, or leadership, which I talk about below. God’s creation order, orderly design for society, the Church, are examples of how every “group” is to be “enjoyed” by proper obedience/servant attitude in different roles. The problem in relationships at any level has been a result of sin. The husband-wife/family is not an exception in the variety of roles, and the need for leadership. The real problem is in how leadership is lived out.

    flanrank, you state that “head” doesn’t mean authority, but means “point of origin”. My research reveals the opposite, with a few exceptions that include your “point of origin”. Kings, generals, emperors, the god Zeus, leaders of tribes and more were called “heads”. This is clearly in reference to their authority, not point of origin. The word “head” in the ancient greek in relationship to people, does appear to be primarily related to authority which clearly fits with a concept of leadership. In Scripture we see references to Christ as head of the Church, and this appears to be more than just the fact that “in Christ” we have our point of origin. Consider Ephesians 1:22-23, Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 4:15. In I Corinthians 11:3, does God being the head of Christ somehow refer to God as being the source or origin of Christ? Or rather the fact that Jesus emptied Himself of His “rights”, and submitted to the Father’s will. (John 4:34; 5:30; 6:38). Also, Christ, being the head of the body, is best understood with authority in view with direction coming from Christ among other things, and submission of the body to the will of the “head”.
    So in my understanding I can not disregard headship meaning authority as you do.

    Other verses to consider the concepts of submission and the related leadership, look at Titus 2:1-5, I Peter 2:13-3:2. Does I Timothy 5:14 and I Timothy 2:15 simply relate to the culture of the time, or is there some deeper God designed order, that flies in the face of today’s culture, but if lived out as God can only do through us, will give Him the glory.

    Practically speaking, none of us may be far apart in how we picture what husband and wife relationships should look like. We can not go wrong if we seek to love as Christ loved.

  66. scottn says:

    Looking forward to spring

    She stopped, turned around, looked me in the eyes and said “I m starting to like you again.”

    Consider all we have been through

    Consider what is to come

    Consider the love that crosses all bridges

    Consider taking time to say thank you


  67. jam200 says:

    Marriage is a great gift from God. One key is applying Ephesians 5:23-33. That is, husband love your wife. Wife respect your husband. It is so much easier for the husband to respect his wife and the wife to love her husband. Husbands have a tendency to love their toys (cars, sports, audio equipment, computers) but have a hard time loving their wife by paying attention to the little details about her. Wives have a hard time respecting their husbands. Wives will step in and take charge instead of being patient and stepping back to let their husband lead. Marriage is about sacrificing some of who we our to allow the other person to grow. That’s part of becoming one.

  68. SFDBWV says:

    Believer3 , Just so you understand, after christ returns there are still people left on earth.

    We are to judge angles not to rule over them.

    for 1000 years Christ is King on earth, we co rule with Him.

    In the coming future, believers have a job to do right here on earth. After which God will destroy the earth with fire. A new heaven and a new earth will be our future together. Revelation 20

  69. poohpity says:

    I believe we are to reflect the fruits of the spirit to all even spouses. 2But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. So it would seem that instead of discussing who has the lead role in marriages when it comes down to it Christ does. As both partners look to the Lord their marriages will become closer as they get closer to God. Even when one is a believer and one isn’t if that believer concentrates on their relationship to God and comes closer to God it will be shown by the fruits of the Spirit and will attract the other to the love of Christ. So no matter what the relationship if our focus is on Christ there is always a way for things to be better in our lives and we might not be so concerned with who is the head and spend more time serving the needs of those around us.

  70. Wordgazer says:

    I cannot see eye-to-eye with SJD about the meaning of the Greek word translated “head.” My research shows its primary meaning is “head” as in “that thing on top of your neck.” When it is used metaphorically in conjunction with “body,” it is therefore a unity metaphor. Secondary meanings derived from this primary meaning included “prominent one/the one on top” (into which you could read “ruler” or “authority,” but it is really a positional word referring to the position of a king, not his power). Another secondary meaning was “source/point of origin” (which is not illogical concerning the Father and the Son, since the Son as the Word of God and the radiance of God’s glory, does proceed from the Father). A third meaning was “the one out in front or sticking out” which included the front soldier in a unit when it makes a charge. “Authority” was occasionally a meaning of “kephale,” but it is not always to be inferred every time we see the word. Rather, the context and type of metaphor being used need to be examined. In Eph 5, the idea is to change certain household codes which had to do with authority– but the insertion of a head/body metaphor there mitigates, not emphasizes, the cultural structure. The husband was the “prominent one” in the marriage, but he was to love sacrificially as Christ did (and Christ gave up His authority and prominence in order to do so!) The context of 1 Cor 11 makes most sense if we read “head” as “source” there– because it concludes, “but as woman came from man, now man is born from woman, but everything is from God.” The idea of “coming from” a source is clearly what Paul has in mind.

  71. agapelife says:

    This is for you Mart I hope this catches you eye with all that is written here, and you have the time in your busy schedule to read. Yet I don’t worry, because I know if it is His will then you will.

    What concerns me is you were writing about authority and submission

    And next thing I see in the blog is that submission was change to dominate.
    Not by you of course, but those who are writing.

    These words have to different meanings, Submission is will full act, that I decide to do, not what I am made to do. Domination is when some takes away my freewill and makes me do it.

    Paul said in the passage that you refer to that, women are to submissive but he also gave man a direct command, to for men to love their wives as Christ, loves the Church. Which means the free will that I have in Christ a husband should give his wife, He does not make me be submissive to Him, I do be cause I love Him and I love Him because of His Love for me. This should be the litmus test relationship of who is the center of the relationship, myself or Christ. Christ should always be the Center in all that I do, my relationships, my work my play.

    Please sir be careful as you re –write your booklet, don’t bring it to modern thinking or social acceptance. Leave His word as it was ment. for then and today.

    I have never married, however I practice this passage with those who God has put in my life to mentor and ministry in the authority of His Church.

    I choose to be in submission to my leaders for this reason, I know you were talking about husband in wife, yet I hope you see all the scriptures teaches one how to live a deep relationship with our Lord.

    There are sometimes when personality or my pride gets in the way so I do not listen or take the counseling of those God has placed in leadership over me, I pay the price, poor choice, separation sometimes from His Spirit.

    Sorry Mart wanted to keep this short, I know you are a very busy and important man.

    Yet I get so concern to day when I see or hear of any one wanting to bring the scriptures or interruption of the scriptures to fit our modern society. Jesus is the same today as he was yesterday. We can use all kind of excuses to change what the scriptures say that hits our pride or sinfully nature

    Wow maybe sometime I might have the honor setting down and talking with you.
    You are prophet and teacher, though you may not think so, So I weigh everything you say very carefully as something God wants me to think and pray about.

    I pray for you daily, that you will always be true to His word, and your love for HIM which comes out in writings so strong, may that love for Him and others always be there.

  72. drkennyg says:

    Having been divorced twice (before I knew Christ and indeed while denying Him through moat of my adult life) I haven’t felt too qualified to comment. I have enjoyed the discussion and now have something to add, It is sad to see that many Christian marriages are in trouble and that many are suffering from abuse because of a misinterpretation (I think) of the roles of husband and wife. I know of one where the husband concedes nothing and indeed has no respect for his wife and the wife simply resists him to avoid what she knows will lead to total domination by an uncaring spouse.

    Too often a strict adherence to 1st century principles has led to physical/mental abuse and even capital crimes. Human nature on both sides have taken over leading to much sinful behavior.

    I have learned a lot from the discussion above regarding how Christ has given men the correct idea of love for a husband in that he should love his wife even as He loved His church. Submission takes on new meaning too and doesn’t mean a kind of robot behavior but rather in loving consideration a time to convey godly principles. Both partners should uphold the other and thus keep the two as one.

  73. Wordgazer says:

    Just a note to clarify– my questioning of whether a woman’s submission to her husband is based on his having authority over her, should not be read in any way as a statement that a woman should not submit to her husband. I have been happily married almost 21 years, and my husband has told me very clearly that he is happy with the way I submit and yield to him, even as I am happy with the way he lays down his own desires for me and loves me sacrificially.

    I agree with what Mart said earlier– submission need not be tied to authority. Submission itself, however, is one of the primary models for Christian life and relationships, and is foundational in the life of a married couple as we “submit to one another in the fear of Christ” (Eph 5:21).

  74. Mart De Haan says:

    Thanks, Steve, just found your reply. That helps for understanding one another. Am sure we’ll have occasion to compare notes on this again down the road. Seems to me that, whether there are other factors to consider or not, interpreting “rule” as Jesus does, and seeking to sacrificially love our wives as Christ loved the church is the bigger issue. We are absolutely together on that.

  75. Mart De Haan says:

    Seems as though the “order of comment” issue is related to the “nesting” (box within a box reply) feature that is enabling us to follow a string of conversation. We’ll have to see whether we can adapt to this different way of commenting and keeping track. Our site manager thinks this should enable us to keep our replies to one another in context.

  76. Mart De Haan says:

    Agapelife, thank you so much for your comments. My study confirms what you have said that the word for “submit” is not so much about being compelled/dominated, as it is a voluntary submission to another for their good, and out of our faith in God.

    You are right that the word “submission” does not imply the right of others to dominate or control us. That’s one reason that sometimes “submitting” involves “resisting” (strange as that may sound) because the biblical submission comes with the motive of love, and sometimes the most loving thing we can do for another is to first submit ourselves to God so as to find the courage to resist their wrongful behavior.

  77. Mart De Haan says:

    OK, so I wasn’t able to post something fresh today, and our site was down for awhile this morning. Also we’re trying to assess the new “nesting” feature of replying within another person’s comments so as to be able to better track of what we are replying to. What do you think? Is the “box within a box” reply going to work for us?

  78. sjd says:

    I hear you wordgazer and appreciate your post! I see your interpretation of the usages of head and guess we may not see completely eye to eye on it. I had something more to comment back on but decided it probably isn’t beneficial to the subject at large at this time. For now I will continue with maybe a more complicated understanding of head, but I believe my role as a husband and hope it will be one of loving leadership and nothing like a ruler! I agree with the fact that Christ gave up His authority and prominence to do so, that is to love sacrificially, and I believe that we as husbands should also follow Christ’s lead in that. That is where I see man’s role in leading. It is in servant leadership as Christ exemplified.

    I will be quiet for now, as I am seeking to learn, and was not trying to build a position of ruling. That is a result of sin. Instead, I am seeking to love my wife as Christ loved the Church. I treasure her, and look to her as an equal. We are both seeking to submit to Christ and have His love be our love for one another. Still, I sense a distinct teaching about order, (I also see a particular order in the Church) and roles in marriage and a responsibility as a husband to lead. I will continue to seek to live by faith in Christ to love my wife, because I can not do it on my own.

  79. sjd says:

    Personally, it takes me a lot more time to try to locate recent comments. Before I could just go back to where I left off and follow what had been added. Now it is like search and rescue, which is good in some situations. However, I can still adapt:) Do what is best.

  80. gr8grannyjacobs says:

    I can also adapt :) Whichever I’ll be here but was easier the other way, seemed more bonded….

  81. Mart De Haan says:

    OK, thanks for the feedback. I think we’ll drop the “nesting”/”box within a box” feature…

  82. Mart De Haan says:

    Our Web team says there have been some “glitches” that have thrown comments out of order in a way that isn’t even related to the “nesting” feature.

    For now, I think it’s better to drop the feature of replying within a box. Since it seems to be easier to review new comments– the old way.

    ….In fact, just checked and it looks like the “nesting” feature is gone… Those IT people are fast :-)….

  83. daisymarygoldr says:

    Now that it is gone, I actually liked the “nesting” feature because it allowed me to have a dialogue with a specific blogger…without intrusion from others. The “recent comments” tab below helped me track the latest comments being posted as the thread progressed. This setting is also good and either ways its fine for me- someone who can never keep her mouth shut:( Aside: Mart, “site was down in the morning” is not very convincing because I get to hear more creative ones at work…So, I usually make it clear right upfront that “the Grandmother is allowed to die only 3 times”. Anyway, Lesson to be learned: do not procrastinate until morning and to ensure that you learn the lesson well… sorry, you received a big fat zero for today’s assignment!

    I was wondering about Michael/plumbape….didn’t hear from you for quite some time now. Hope everything is going well at your end…

  84. SFDBWV says:

    Thanks for fixing the post, Mart I like this way much better. It includes everyone into what we say to each other. And allows the evolution of the subect to move forward.

  85. Soga says:

    I may be naive when it comes to interpreting the scriptures but I do have some understanding of what is required of me to make my marriage work as a christian.

    This authority/submission thing should really not be this much issue. I do not see the bible nor Paul preaching domination in any way as it relates to quoted scriptures, that would have contradicted all the teaching of love that the Lord Jesus is all about. I am persuaded that the head/body relationship (whatever meaning/interpretation is ascribed to the head) serves to let us know what God has assigned as responsibility to each partner in the marriage. The buck has to stop at someone’s table for action or inaction.

    I think this is what is exemplified by God’s reaction to the sin of Adam and Eve in Gen.

  86. gr8grannyjacobs says:

    SFDBWV , you came back and said thank you, my heart was so touched and once again I saw the gentleness and kindness God has placed in you. God bless you Glenna and Matt.

  87. poohpity says:


  88. poohpity says:

    By the way one might read Feb 26 Our Daily Bread with the Malachi 2:10-16 NIV. Wow it will really bless you as does all of scripture.

  89. Helmet says:

    Oh, it’s so thorny this issue. I have a friend who can do anything without permision, if she’s cooking, and need some onion, or salt, anything, she have to ask for permission to go to store, that small in the next block, but if he doesn’t want she can’t go, no matter if the food is not well seasoned. Not to put a plant where she would like, not to talk, not to…
    I think it is slavery, but may God judge it not me.
    What do you think?

  90. christianobserver says:

    This is indeed one issue in the church where more married men are more confused than ever before about what exactly their role is as husband and father in a modern North American family.

    We can bombard the bible study classes with Gary Smalley’s “Love Is A Decision” and “Fireproof” marriages with Kirk Cameron till the cows come home. The trouble is that even though the man is biblically the head of the wife, it still takes two to tangle, and almost all of the time when there is conflict in a marriage, THE HUSBAND IS SINGLED OUT! When Eve sinned before God in Eden, we are taught that it was Adam’s fault. (I think Adam wanted that fruit just as much if not more than Eve. It just that Eve beat him to it. LOL! Remember God gave us free will?) Yes, when a team fails, its coach is subject to dismissal. I truly believe the husband is primarily accountable, but if a wife sins, it ain’t necessarily the husband’s fault that she sinned! I wish that more church leaders and teachers could get off this attitude of “the poor women can do no wrong; they’re angels”. Almost 80% of all North American divorces are initiated by WOMEN, and yet the churches are teaching against divorce based on a one-sided attitude by men back in the days of the Old Testament, where according to Mosaic Law, only the husband could divorce his wife, not vice versa. Did not the minor prophet Malachi quote God as saying “I HATE DIVORCE”??? The women in the modern church in North America must have their feet put to the fire as well as men, if not more so. Men have enough to deal with without spiritually immature women acting as judges and bashing their men at women’s fellowships. Believe me, as Satan attends church on Sunday often, this nonsense does happen!

  91. christianobserver says:

    One other comment: The word “head” also can be interpreted to mean “leader”. Do you honestly believe that a wife leading both her husband and her children, while she earns the lion’s share of the household money (while the husband is able to work), this being a permanent style of marital relationship, is a blessing to God? Are we caving in to the philosophy of matriarchy? Has “Christian Feminism” crept in finally to the point that we rely on non-authoritative definitions of the word “head”?

    I am reminded of a sick comment I once heard both in church and in the movie “My Big Fat Greek Wedding”: If he is the head, then I (the wife) am the neck that turns it!

    Did not God give instruction to Eve that her desire was for her husband (not a desire to covet her husband’s authority)? It’s really the sinful nature of men (due to the Adamic curse) to abuse the godly instruction to “rule over her”, and that ruling her per se is not the curse. Christian men must learn how to rule their wives like Christ rules the church. Mutual bi-lateral submission of the two spouses without human authority of one over the other does not symbolize the relationship of Christ to the church. If that were not the case, then Christ would be no more than a buddy or a girlfriend who can give us some advice, then we can continue to control our own destiny, believe in ourselves, and interpret the scriptures in the fear of North American women, and not in the fear of the God who wants us men to love wives and children WITH AUTHORITY that can only come from real godly manhood, by the power of the Holy Ghost. Consider “Men’s Fraternity” classes conducted by Dr. Robert Lewis.

    Forget “Christian Feminism”; it’s from the same Satan that deceived Eve and tempted Adam. (Note I wrote it was Satan, not Eve who did the tempting.)

    Been thinking about……Standing up for the truth; being an apologist.

  92. christianobserver says:

    We Christians are the bride of Christ, who is our authority, the head of the Church.

    Should we stop calling wives “brides” and husbands “bridegrooms”. Grooms groom a horse in a stable to look good. Christ “grooms” us to “look” more like Him.

    Eve was deceived first, not Adam. Does it make clear sense that husbands should make an attempt in their marriage to “groom” their brides? The way most men treat their wives or relate to them is usually in extremes — Ralph Kramden (I’m king of the castle, and you’re a nobody) or Dagwood Bumstead (Blonnnnn-die!!!!).
    I believe the Jesus example is somewhere in-between.

  93. poohpity says:

    Dear christianobserver,

    It seems as though you have been hurt very badly and are very angry over, it would seem, a relationship. It would be very difficult to be like Jesus because He is fully God and fully man. It would be more logical to be like David a man after God’s own heart. When one desires to grow closer to God, no matter male or female there will be respect for each other because we are called to love others as ourselves. Hope things work out for you and you find healing. I know that will happen the closer you get to God.

  94. Wordgazer says:

    A few late thoughts:

    Not every time the relationship of Christ to the church is mentioned, is it being mentioned in its every aspect. When comparing the husband-wife relationship to Christ and the Church, we must be careful. The husband is not Christ to the wife. The wife has her own relationship with Christ in the priesthood of all believers.

    Christ is the Savior of the church; He is the Savior of both the husband and the wife. The husband is not the savior of the wife– the analogy does not extend that far. Similarly, the husband is not the sanctifier of the wife– Christ, though His Holy Spirit, is Sanctifier of both husband and wife. The husband is not to be worshipped by the wife; both wife and husband are to worship Christ.

    The question then remains as to whether, if the husband is not the savior, sanctifier, or object of worship to the wife, we are required to conclude that he IS the authority/ruler of the wife. We have to be careful to interpret the word “head” as Paul, and God, intended it to mean when it was written. That it is to mean “authority” in this context is still a disputable point.

    I agree whole-heartedly that it is not the husband’s fault if the wife sins! And each party must certainly make an effort to make the marriage work. However, when the husband is given all the power and authority in the relationship, then the husband must also bear the responsibility for the relationship going wrong– because the wife, if given no power, can have no power to try to fix the marriage. This is one of the consequences of a too-strict interpretation of male authority over the female– and it is one reason why women do instigate divorces– to get out of intolerable situations which they have no power to change.

  95. poohpity says:


    Come on girl and lets go to the next topic, lol. It seems like you understand all to well. I will come and get you again if I have to. :)

  96. christianobserver says:

    Regarding Woodgazer’s comments March 2: Excellent post and right on target, except for the word “head”. I believe it has been the abuse of the leadership role of the husband in a marital relationship and family, whether in a Christian or non-Christian relationship, that has hurt and angered women for centuries. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water; let a man be a man. It’s simply God-given and natural for a man to lead a woman. (You must make exceptions in the workplace, though!) Watch ice-skating pairs competition. Watch a couple dancing. Who opens the door for whom?

    This ain’t sexism, gals! It’s what God expects of men. And you’d be mighty suprised to see how many women in the church today demand this! They’re sick and tired of “wearing the pants”.

    And poohpity, yes, even in Christian circles, there is a double standard that shouldn’t be. When a man speaks constructive criticism of any woman, he is labeled as a misogynist. Women who constructively criticize men are never accused of man-hating, so why should it be any different towards men? Alas, the curse of Adam has its repercussions. I await eternity in Heaven, where we can lay all this nonsense aside and see how all of us reflect the image of Christ!

    Oh, BTW, I’m not hurting from a bad relationship. Turn off the intuition; it’s not working here! My wife and I have been happily married for almost 22 years now, and she clearly understands what my role is as the “man of the house”. She READS the Bible! And what an honor it is for her to be the one in the relationship who symbolizes the church as my beautiful “bride”.

    Some of you people still don’t get it. You get hung up on Greek words and don’t allow the Holy Spirit to do some of the “thinking about” for you!

  97. poohpity says:

    Forgive me for interpreting your words as someone who has been in a bad relationship. They just seemed to show anger or superiority towards women to me. Thank you for the correction. Just to let you know I do not believe that the Holy Spirit was given to think for us but rather to guide us into all truths. I feel that we all have something to learn. You may want to look at the current topic.

  98. Confused says:

    I have been married for more than 20 years. In a happy marriage (I thought) with its usual share of ups and downs. My husband just told me that GOD has told him to leave me and go look for another woman that GOD has planned for him. Not his will but God’s. How can that be? What happened to our marriage vows? What happend to “one flesh”? What happend to “death do us part”? I’m clinging to God’s promise in Malachi 2:10-16 but I’m so confused, hurting and really suicidal. If he leaves me, I have no faith in a GOD who does not keep his promise. And no will to live…

  99. chaplain tomk says:

    Chaplain Tomk
    just a quick quote from a manuscript I wrote regarding Gen 3 curse for what it is worth. This is affirmed to me through years of personal experience, biblical understanding and counselling.

    As a result of the curse consequence:

    A man’s significance is now dependent on the voice of his wife. He will have the inner need she be satisfied – with him. He measures his manhood based on her homage to him; lack of this often angers him. He must also contend with an uncooperative creation (multiplied consequence). Feelings of inadequacy motivates him to sinfully withdraw or unlovingly dominate the relationship. He resents her dissatisfaction because it has him judge himself. His sense of manhood is bound to her opinion of him and he resents this effect (curse – he bound to her voice).

    She can never attain satisfactory fulfillment from any man; however; the curse motivates her to want it from him. Her powerful need, therefore, has her crave and/or demand her husband perform according to her expectations. Dependency upon his performance often has her crave, lead, or manipulate change from him. She is in bondage to her expectations of him (curse – rukes over her by his failing expectations).

    The void created by the loss of relationship with God is traumatic. Because the ultimate relationship with God has been lost, thus creating a void, the inner demand to satisfy that loss turns to Adam/Eve. It is from him that she expects to have her vacuum filled. He in turn resents this expectation and failed adequacy.

  100. poohpity says:

    Sweetheart although we can not give the help you need here it would be wise to run to get some counseling. That person you are married to is not worth your beautiful life. Do not allow him to have that much power over you. You are a beautiful child of God and His loving arms are open to you in this time of desperate need. Please ask for some help from somewhere you deserve it.

  101. sadsherry says:

    I’m having issues with my husband right now. He is a recovering addict with a relapse just a couple of months ago. He had a dysfunctional childhood and 3 marriages prior to me. He has 4 children. One with me. He was married when I met him. I saw some real anger issues when I met him. He has been in bad relationships, with controlling women and I believe he hates women. Including me. When we are getting along it is heaven on earth. But when I dare to disagree with him or have a bad day, I am Satan incarnate. He repeatedly calls me names and disrespects me and my kids. He blames his issues on me. I think he needs counseling but he says he is not a product of his upbringing but I beg to differ. When he is angry he uses his tongue and the words that come out are meant to seek and destroy and they have. If I bring this to his attention he denies it. I don’t know what to do. He tells me that you don’t treat people like crap that you care about. I told him the same thing. He thinks he is being dumped on all the time and he has anger issues and control issues as in he is very demeaning in his behavior when he is angry at me. Right now he has isolated himself as a means of punishing me. I have prayed and prayed for an answer as to what to do about this. I really think he needs to leave. He says he is going to do that anyway. I wish he would.

  102. poohpity says:


    I know it is very hard I have been there and done that. Thank you for sharing your hurt and confusion with us. I know how hard it is to put yourself and your husband in God’s hands. I know that is the pat answer but in doing so you realize that you are unable to change your husband but getting yourself some help is do able. I hope you will seek others who are going through this also so you can lean on each and the Lord to give you wisdom. He promised us that he will give wisdom to all who ask. Your only job is to listen. Sounds so easy doesn’t it but that is very very difficult. Hope you let us know how things are going because we are very open to listening.

  103. christianobserver says:

    To Confused and SadSherry:

    My heartfelt wish is that some reconciliation can come between you and your spouses. As soon as I finish this post I will pray for the both of you and your spouses.

    Again I must write that it’s this abuse of the God-given role of the husband by unsaved or spiritually immature men that must be abolished. This can come about with pastoral counseling, such as can be found in Men’s Fraternity (Dr. Lewis) or Man in the Mirror, to name a few.

    In Malachi (through the prophet), God warns husbands not to break the marriage covenant, and not to cover their wives with violence (Malachi 2:13-17 NIV).

    Jesus makes one exception for divorce, though. Read Matthew 19:4-9. Marital unfaithfulness is the exception, and this exception is the responsibility of the husband. In our society it seems to be the norm for women to initiate divorce proceedings. I would say that if necessary, if all else fails, seek refuge in a shelter or the home of a loved one. You would need to get out of that environment ASAP, but continue to pray for your husbands. Don’t press the divorce button yet. If he is an unbeliever, consider 1 Corinthians 7:12-16.

  104. laus says:

    I am from India and have been married for the last three years. I would like to share my views rather than experience.

    First we have to look at the Bible, Ho God intended the relationship between husband and wife will be.

    In Genesis, we see God said “It is not good for the man to be alone I will create him a suitable helper”. I want to emphasise the word suitabe helper. Helper means anybody who helps others. So the wife (Eve) is supposed to help husband (Adam). In other words, after marriage, the husband should have a more comfortable living than before marriage. We need to think whether it happens in our cases.

    O.K. Now what is the job of husband? Let us try to see something from the same book Genesis. Before creating wife (Eve) itself God said to man “You rule over all the creations”. God has created man after creating all that we see and given authority to rule over them. So we undertand husband is to lead the family (wife and children)

    Now let us move to new testament. What paul says about marriage?
    Paul compares husband to Christ and wife to Curch. God so loved the church so husband is expected to love the wife. Yes. True. As Christ is leading the church, husband is to lead the family or head the family. Next regarding wife, wife is expected to obey husband like the church obeys the Christ and submit to christ.

    Wherever these eternal ordinances are disregarded, it is very much expected that there will be problems.

    Now moving further, what is the conclusion? It is clear it depends on the two (both husband and wife). Husband is expected to play the role of Christ (Love the family) and wife is to play the role of Church (obey the husband) If the partner (either wife or husband) is not playing the role ordained to her/him what will be the case? Do you try to change the partner. I mean you will try to correct or teach or educate the partner to play the intended role? If the answer is yes, then very well you can try. Please remember God himself frustrated with human beings and said “My Spirit shall not forever dwell and strive with man (humankind – both man and woman), for he (she) also is flesh” (Genesis 6:3). So then what is the way out?

    Belive in God. Expect nothing from your partner if she/he is not doing what she/he is supposed to do. Being with God and reading the Bible on meditating the Words of God will take you to the higher level, which will change the prespective about the partner rather it will change the way you look everything and you will have peace of mind and peaceful life.

    May God bless you !!!

  105. christianobserver says:


    Wonderful post, and very scriptural! Couldn’t have said it better myself!

    So simple to understand, and yet we frail and stumbling believers try to make difficult something that even a five-year old in Sunday School could understand if you broke it down to their level.

    It’s pride that gets in the way of true submission.

    God’s Grace and Peace to you, Indian sister!

  106. Confused says:

    It’s getting worse each day. He tells me that GOD told him in a dream that He wants him to leave me for another woman and showed him the woman in this dream. And this woman is married with two children. I have been totally faithful to him all these years so marital unfaithfulness is not in question. Can GOD do this? Can GOD break up two marriages for some reason we do not understand? He tells me that he has to obey GOD and says that GOD’s ways are higher than our ways and we have to trust GOD. Is this biblical? How can I put my faith in a GOD that breaks our marriage covenant? I tell him Matthew 5:32 makes me an adulteress, too, but he brushes that aside. I cannot let him leave me. I still love him so much… I just want to die…

  107. Confused says:

    Please, anybody, somebody, pray for me and my husband. That this other woman will not leave her family for him and that he will see sense and come back to me. I need him, our children need him and his parents, too. Right now, things look very bleak and I’m in the depths of despair. I am fasting and praying and searching the scriptures daily. However, the excitement of a new love in his life is pulling him away from me. And the worst of it is that he attributes it to GOD’s will so I have no way to refute him. Please pray for us — I think that is my only hope…

  108. poohpity says:

    Confused you know by reading the scripture that all he is saying is a lie. You believe the truth and do not allow anyone to tell you any different. Anyone who knows God knows He is a God of love and peace and obviously these behaviors are not resulting in love or peace. You do have a way to refute him by the Words of God regarding adultery. Put yourself and him in God’s hands. You are unable to change your husband only God can do that and right now he is calling God a liar and this battle is the Lord’s. You get help for you and your children. What do you think is happening in their little lives by watching all this and seeing mom fall apart. Those little ones look to you for strength, help them and let God take care of your husband. They are going through a lot of confusion and fear watching all of this. Think about what they are learning in all this.

  109. Helmet says:

    Confused, I’m sure your husband is not reading God’s Word, or he’s pretending to read it, because Jesus said in John 14:21 (King James Version)

    21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    Aaaaand, Jesus tought his disciples about divorce, that is because heart hardeness!! So, you can trully see, it’s a big big lie coming from his flesh!

    So, keep reading, memorize each day one verse, and pour your heart before God for your husband, to turn from his sin to God. Like Israel, he fight all night long ’till God blessed him, so you do, that is to implore, do not stop ’till you get it, because this is the real will of God! ask God to make you nice in his eyes, to give you grace in your husband eyes, do not stay on pijama, dress pretty, make your hear, and be present with people who know that woman, be nice with them, they will be with you when they see your husband seeking her. Joy comes from God, and your husband must see this on you. All this must be done previous prayer, don’t miss this.
    Please, do-not-stop until you get God’s answer! I’ll be with you in prayer. Fight for your home, and fight may be won on your knees. Find a verse where God promises to help you, to keep you, to answer, and after memorize it, tell God: You my Lord said it, please do it to me.
    Claim His promise.

  110. Mart De Haan says:

    Just got back to see how the discussion is going. Am noticing in the mix of comments above that disrespect changes the color and value of a conversation. So does the assumption that husbands are to model Jesus “as a lord” to the bride/church rather than as “the kind of wise and loving servant” that Christ became for us…

  111. daisymarygoldr says:

    Confused: My heart breaks to hear your cries for help…and it is also breaking God’s heart to see you, His precious sheep… suffer without a shepherd. Don’t worry…God is watching over you…His mercy and compassion will provide for your every need. What if your husband had died? Will you still cling to his corpse? Just consider him dead…if he wants to go…let him go. Jesus is your spiritual husband…He is the living water who will satisfy your every desire…like none other.
    Chaplain Tomk is right. Jesus is the ultimate satisfaction who fulfills all our needs. Have faith in a God… He always keeps His promises. According to His promise, did He not die and rise up again to deliver us from sin and death? In this world we will face sin and death…but then we will live forever with God. So, live… live for God who created you and loves you above all… and not for an unfaithful man who does not deserve your faithful love…
    christianobserver has given you sound Biblical advise: “…seek refuge in a shelter or the home of a loved one. You would need to get out of that environment ASAP, but continue to pray for your husbands. Don’t press the divorce button yet. If he is an unbeliever, consider 1 Corinthians 7:12-16.”
    I am sincerely praying for you…

  112. daisymarygoldr says:

    Christianobserver, you hit the nail (right) on the head of “marriage disconnect”. Thank you, for standing up for the truth! I can relate to your anger… And yes, also to being subjected to others “intuition”. Just like you, my bitterness and anger has been misunderstood by others here as something due to a deep personal hurt which they assume… is my secret shame. It is very frustrating when those around you do not sense your consuming pain for the house of God and His righteousness. Along with you I also await eternity in Heaven. In fact, my spirit cannot wait for Christ to return… so spiritually immature men and women will be transformed into the full understanding and stature of Christ!

    Laus, Perfectly said: “Believe in God. Expect nothing from your partner if she/he is not doing what she/he is supposed to do.”

  113. Confused says:

    Thank you everybody for your prayers. I beseech you to continue to keep praying for me and my husband. He reads the bible and prays constantly. He says he has the gift of prophesy and God shows him in visions and dreams that he is to leave me and go with this woman. I cannot accept that our great and loving God can give such instructions to break up two families. He will not let me seek counselling or help from church or family because he is waiting for God to give him the signal… I am really feeling very depressed and suicidal. If he leaves me, I cannot stay in my job and my church… Please continue to pray for me. This is a desperate cry for help. I have no one else to turn to…

  114. daisymarygoldr says:

    Confused, be assured of all our ceaseless prayers… Can’t speak for your husband but can guarantee you that no matter what happens…you are the winner! Man is evil, God is good. God never speaks in a vision/dream asking one to leave his wife. So, you must sense that your husband is wrong. If I was you, I wouldn’t wait for a signal from him. Please, do talk to your family or friends at church…so they can pray and be physically there for you….just in case the situation turns worse. You really don’t have to feel embarrassed or ashamed of anything…it is wiser to seek help before it is too late. You are not alone …though invisible God is right there with you and will safely see you through all of it. Confused, worst case scenario…if this ends in divorce, know this… that it is not the end of your world and you are not the only one going through it. Many have been through divorce and have emerged out unscathed and victorious in Christ. So, hang in there and cast all your anxieties on Him…Believe me, husband or no husband…God will surely take care of you!

  115. gr8grannyjacobs says:

    daisy Why do you think that I don’t have a consuming pain for the house of God and His righteousness? That is what your words imply.

    If you and I were the only two that loved and honored God and wanted to share His gospel with others what exactly and how would you have us do that?

    Jesus seems to me just told folks and left the decision with them. Do you think He didn’t care?

    We can’t make anyone accept Christ as only Christ can convert a heart. We just share the truth and pray.

    Bitterness and anger doesn’t seem to fit the message of Christ but rather a weeping for those that refuse to hear His message of love and forgiveness.

    I also long for Christ to return but I know His timing will be perfect and I believe He lingers waiting for as many as will be saved.

    Christians are God’s people and we all try to share Christ as best we know how and like the disciples we aren’t perfect in our endeavor but we care and we keep trying.

    daisy you are special to me. I so care for you but sometimes words hurt. I sincerely pray that the words I speak here do not hurt you but rather show you that Christians do care.

    We all may present different but remember God sees the heart not us.

  116. poohpity says:


    I believe what was written as a reply from me to christianobserver was what DMG was addressing. It is OK because we may never know what goes on in someones heart and their written word may not portray that but God knows their hearts. You and I are responsible for our response to God and we can not change anybody else. So let it go.

  117. daisymarygoldr says:

    gr8grannyjacobs, trust me, your words will never hurt me…they did once but not anymore…not after being indebted to the lavish love you have for me. I’m thinking you are a lot like me…rather I am a lot like you…i.e. we are very sensitive individuals. No, my comment again was not intended for you. So please, don’t feel hurt. I agree with everything you said about sharing the message of Christ with love. I’m learning…gr8grannyjacobs. That is exactly why God has brought me here…to learn from gr8 people like you. I love you too!

  118. daisymarygoldr says:

    gr8garanny, just wanted to reapeat what I said above and add the missing smile…
    I’m thinking you are alot like me…rather I’m alot like you:)

  119. christianobserver says:

    Note to Mart: I do not “lord” myself over my wife.
    As Christ blesses the Church through his giving of himself (even death on a cross), I try to lead and “rule” (groom) my wife in the same manner; I try to give her more than she does me (servant leadership), when it comes to her daily needs. No woman should continue giving (submitting) herself to a selfish husband who stands around as a figurehead, without some rebuttal. I know who’s the boss in our relationship, it’s my Lord. Abdication or watering-down of the husband’s role is not the answer; ending the lack of biblical understanding of the role IS! The lack of knowledge and wisdom leads to the abuse of the privilege of this role, and to the violence and bad relationships that is posted here. My heart goes out to those women in such relationships — if only they could be in a relationship my wife and I have had for almost 22 years now. It isn’t perfect, but it’s richly blessed. My wife and I wouldn’t want it any other way. Loving is not leading, but you can’t lead without love. God is love.

    Christians who consider themselves “conservative” in their spiritual thinking should beware of the “liberal” wolves in sheep’s clothing, who would cause one to drop the truth for a lie disguised as new revelation. This is an admonishment for anyone who reads this; I’m not pointing fingers (Satan does that).

  120. christianobserver says:

    Sorry to say, but the arguments against the “man of the house” concept, along with leadership, sounds too much like the secular feminist arguments of the 60’s and 70’s.

    Satan, the Lord rebukes you………….

  121. gr8grannyjacobs says:

    daisy You have proven to me again that you are full of God’s love. Sometimes I wonder if you realize how much your love for God comes across in your post. You are correct in that we are both sensitive however I must admit I did not take any of your remarks personal. I just used the word I in place of ” the church ” as I knew you would understand the underlying message. You did as I saw your post on talk radio and was ever so happy.Keep up your witness for God as all of us that love Him do and we will be a light in God’s world. You are so precious to me. I love your smile :)

  122. Wordgazer says:

    There is one thing I really must step in and address, because I hate to see God’s Word completely misread.

    Gen 1:27: God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air, and over every living creature.” (emphasis mine)

    God did not give the man alone, the command to rule the earth. He gave the man and the woman the command to rule the earth together. The passage is very clear on that.

    This “Satan, the Lord rebukes you” stuff is a bit much. What about the respect Matt just asked us all to show? I have given Scriptural evidence for every word I have said.

  123. poohpity says:

    Thank you Wordgazer I could have not said it better my self. Matthew 7:1-5

  124. Wordgazer says:

    Thank you, Poohpity.

    Also in regards to this:

    wife is expected to obey husband like the church obeys the Christ and submit to christ.

    Wherever these eternal ordinances are disregarded, it is very much expected that there will be problems.

    I would like very much to see a quote of an actual New Testament Scripture that says, in the form of an ordinance or law, “wives obey (rather than submit to) your husbands.” You won’t find one in the Old Testament; there is no such law. If we are going to add a new law for Christians based on the New Testament (which isn’t supposed to be about law in the first place!), I would very much like to see where it is set forth.

    About other comments that have been made: it is very easy to brand as “wolves in sheeps’ clothing” those who disagree with us about how Scripture is to be interpreted. But that phrase was not used in the Scripure regarding disagreements about such things as male-female roles; it was about those who preach “another gospel” than the good news of salvation by faith in Christ. No one here has said anything in favor of “another gospel.” I believe we should be careful how we address these issues, that we don’t brand true sheep as wolves, just because of a disagrement about a matter that is non-essential for salvation.

  125. sitsathisfeet says:

    Dear Confused Since this is an afterpost I don’t know if you’ll read this. I just went through a divorce the past year and a half or so and it was one of the most painful things of my life, even more painful than when I was widowed with three small children. My husband decided he wanted a divorce when we had financial troubles, and eventually lost his job. He placed his hope and confidence in material things, and things of this world and became very hard-hearted. He told me he wanted a divorce because it was “too hard” to stay married, and it would be “easier” for him if we divorced. I pleaded and prayed for us to stay together, many tears shed with my christian sisters. He got a lawyer and left me with practically nothing. I went on welfare for my son and I and he currently pays 200.00 a month for child support. We lost our home to foreclosure and my son and I went to stay with friends and family temporarily. Then one of the judges ordered us to move back into the home which was foreclosing as our family members we stayed with lived out of the area, and the husband petitioned the court to have us move back, though he did not want to provide for us. We obeyed the court order and moved back. The home is still foreclosed and we’re waiting to be told to move out, or to find the means to live somewhere else in the area. I have had health problems and been unable to work fulltime, and am looking for part time work. There was also abuse in the marriage and toward my son, which I had to report and go through CPS services. Anyway, It was quite a bad situation all around. Things are much better now, though not everything is resolved. Even my health is much better and realize a lot of the physical problems were stress related to the marriage and situation. My advice to you, pray as you have been, God will help and sustain you, leave dealing with your husband to God, do what you have to do for you and your children and their well being. Fight the good fight, and leave the rest to the Lord. He will never leave or forsake you. He is your husband and provider, and the father for your children. It helped me a lot to read RBC Discovery booklet God’s Protection for Women, Divorce, Marriage and ReMarriage by Discovery series and also Divorce, Marriage and Remarriage, Covenant Keeper’s Calvary Chapel, where they deal with leaving one spouse for another etc. Then find one or two trusted Christian women friends to pray with you, cry with you, listen to you and encourage you. It is so hard to humbly go to another and confess our faults, and failures, and that we need help, but I’m so glad I did, that for me made a great difference. God has used these people with skin on to provide for all our needs they were the first responders spiritually, physically and emotionally to help us, and I praise God for it! And finally I think about Joseph, son of Jacob sold into slavery by his brothers, but God used their evil plan for good. So it is with us, what someone meant for evil, the Lord will turn to good in our lives, you can depend on that. Cling to the Lord and all his promises through these storms of your life, for He that gave us life is faithful! The Lord is counting your tears sister. Love in Christ. Janice

  126. Charis says:

    Christian Observer wrote:

    Oh, BTW, I’m not hurting from a bad relationship. Turn off the intuition; it’s not working here! My wife and I have been happily married for almost 22 years now, and she clearly understands what my role is as the “man of the house”. She READS the Bible! And what an honor it is for her to be the one in the relationship who symbolizes the church as my beautiful “bride”.


    I do not “lord” myself over my wife.
    As Christ blesses the Church through his giving of himself (even death on a cross), I try to lead and “rule” (groom) my wife in the same manner

    My husband was happy as peach pie for the first 22 years of our marriage when he got his way in every detail of life because I believed the lie that “submission”=”obedience” and the lie that “the husband is the ruler of the household”. We have been married 26 1/2 years. For the past 4 1/2 years my views have undergone a complete shift. I remain the stay at home mother of 8 children (though I now have a part time job in small town elected office), but I recently took the plunge and joined Christians for Biblical Equality. I suppose that would make me “egalitarian”.

    Anyway, I really would love to hear from your WIFE about her delight that you “groom her” (sounds like a horse to me). I just can’t take your word for it because MY husband thought everything was positively peachy too. It was “paradise” for him (and hell for me).

  127. Charis says:

    My heart goes out to you! :(
    Look in the library for Lundy Bancroft “Why Does He DO That?” Not an expressly Christian author, but very discerning, and very respectful and protective toward women.

    Christian Observer,
    Show me a passage that says “the man is the head of the household”? It isn’t in there! Its a “christian myth”! Go to Bible Gateway and look up in the NIV version for this phrase “every man should be ruler over his own household.”. See for yourself just who is the “poster boy” for such beliefs.

  128. Helmet says:

    I don’t have so much time to be here, I came to see how are you, and to tell you that a friend mine, passed the same you are doing, she claim God for her husband, who was a preacher failed for a woman, but God answered her, God will do what it would be needed with you, He sent a friend to that man to talk to him for a day long, bay the nigth he came to his wife to appologize, they are still married today, it was about 20 years ago. He is a preacher again.
    so, do not pretend your husband dead ’till God says

  129. Helmet says:

    An so I agree with Janice, sitsathisfeet, because God has just thre answers for your prayer: yes, no, just wait. So, ’till you know His answer, only on one thing you can be sure: He loves you, so He cares, just think on what He did for give you eternal life, He gave it all, you are precious for Him, you are unique in His eyes, He wants to dry your tears, to clean your heart more and more to serve Him, if He does with you like with my friend, or if He does like with Janice, He’ll do everything in His loving care for you. So you see, here He gave you friends to pray for you, but I agree, my shoulder is not near to you, and you need one to cry, ask God for it, He will gave you a faithful friend to care of you, not averybody could be, because you could be bretrayed, so first pray God for a friend, who could be faithful first to His Word.
    Helmet means: He – l= loves – me – t= for too much and He is my Helmet (Ephesians 6:10-19 please, you may memorize this Words)

  130. Confused and Devastated says:

    Thank you everybody for your prayers. I continue to ask for your prayer support. God continues to give me reassurances but I can feel that my husband is drawing away from me day by day. He will not let me seek counselling or help from church or family because he is waiting for God to give him the signal… But I sense that it will happen very soon. I am so lost and hopeless. I cannot do it alone any more. I am really feeling very depressed and suicidal. If he leaves me, I cannot stay in my job and my church… Please, please continue to pray for me. This is a desperate cry for help. I have no one else to turn to…

  131. Charis says:

    Confused and Devastated says:

    He will not let me seek counselling or help from church or family because he is waiting for God to give him the signal…

    Dear Confused and Devastated,

    When I was on the mission field with my husband in the late 80’s he was carrying on staying out all night at bars “evangelizing” prostitutes “like JESUS did!” He wound up cheating on me. I kept my mouth shut about what he was doing- kept the “family secret”. In hindsight, that was really foolish, ungodly, and enabling on my part. I should have gone right to the mission leadership and exposed what he was doing. Course my husband forbid it!

    More recently, when he was applying to another mission board, they required successful completion of marriage counseling. The MC woke me up to some of his ongoing, long term, unacceptable behavior. So he pulled the plug on it, forbid me continuing. And I thought I was obligated to “obey” him. ((((((sigh)))))))

    I would encourage you to pray hard. My husband’s will and GOD’S will were NOT one and the same. Clearly, with your husband ready to dump the marriage for another woman, your husband’s will and GOD’S will are NOT one and the same either. I think your husband doesn’t want anyone else in on this because at some level he KNOWS he is completely wrong.

    You have a calling to ezer your husband (life-saving HELP MEET!) If you sit back, suffer in silence, and keep these “family secrets” could you be contributing to DEATH instead of LIFE for your husband and marriage? (see Sapphira in Acts 5)

  132. poohpity says:

    Confused and devastated,

    The bible has an answer for this problem in Matthew 18:15-17 15″If your brother sins against you,[a] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[b] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

    I know this says a brother but it pertains to any believer. There has been some really good advice here and if you love your husband you will want him to be restored to his faith but that will not happen if the he continues to sin. It is causing hurt to you and your family and now is not the time to be obedient to sin. You can choose to follow what the Lord says or your husband and if he is obedient to the Lord then he would be running from adultery. Our first priority is always to God.

  133. sinner4givin says:

    Hi I am brand new to this site. I have been reading the blogs and my heart truely goes out to confused and devastated. I understand your desperation, I have walked a similar path. I have been married 16 years to a man I deeply love and have four great boys. However, for the past 10 years, we have struggled with my husbands drug addiction. At the very beginning of the addiction, he had an affair during my second pregnancy. So being in the state of confusion and devastation is very familiar to me. Throughout this journey, I can say without doubt, that I was at times, far from Christlike. I went through many stages of emotion. However, even though I did not understand it at the time, Jesus never left my side. Each time I felt the need to give up and leave him, or kick him out, a peace cam over me, and I would realize I still loved this man. Four years ago, after a serious car wreck that my husband was involved in; when I was probably the most, exhausted, the most hopeless, and the furthest from God. My Redeemer came looking for me, and spoke to me. “Ok, He said, are you ready to stop trying to fix him, and work on fixing you?” For the first time in years I realized that I had lost focus of Almighty God, and had been consumed with fixing my husband and marriage. Three days after that wreck, I got back in church, 17 days after that, I was saved. Since that time, the road has not always been easy, but God has been in control instead of me, and by His grace we have made tremendous progress in all areas. For the past four months, I have been in a season of revelation. What God has shown me, has had me shaking my head. All those years of trying to “fix him”, I never consulted His Word for guidance. I was always quick to point my finger at my husband and place all of the blame on him for our problems. Now God has shown me that it was never my husband who had to change. You see,he had never been raised in the church, I had. He has never known God’s forgiveness and mercy, I have. He never claimed to be a Christian, I had. When we married, God told me, “where you are weak, he is strong, and where he is weak, you are strong”. My husband was never the one who was suppose to change. God had placed me, His child, in a position of great honor and importance. It was my job as a Christian to live a life that would reflect His glory so that my husband would be won to Christ through what he saw in me. So it was I who had failed, I who changed, and it was I who fell for Satan’s lies. God never promised to change the people around us who need Him. If we are obedient children, we will completely surrender ourselves to His will and allow Him to change us for the benefit of those around us. It has been a tough battle, that is nowhere near over. But Jesus claimed victory over it long ago, He was just waiting patiently for me to see things through His eyes. Hang in there my friend, and turn your eyes back toward your Redeemer. I am more IN LOVE with my husband today than I have ever been before. He does do what He promises, you just have to listen to what He is saying instead of what you want to hear. I would never trade any of my trials, they have provided me with incredible growth.

  134. poohpity says:


    Thank you for sharing your story with us. It is so true that we have to be the one who changes. That prayer of God grant the me the serenity to accept the things I can not change (which is others); the courage to change the things I can (which is ourselves); and the wisdom to know the difference. Then on top of that we realize when we give ourselves to Christ it is only He that can change us. God bless you and again thank you for sharing a part of yourself with us.

  135. sadsherry says:

    I’m a bit confused. My husband is still angry. Mostly at the disrespect of my daughter and he blames me. Also, he has joined dating sites, and porn sites said he wants to be intimate, and have casual encounters, and mingle with freaks, etc…..I think he would actually do it except that he needs a credit card to join fully. It hurts that he has gone to this extreme. He reads devotionals daily with me, we go to church once a week, and homegroup once a week and we have a friend whos husband is doing the same things and my husband says that it is sin, yet he is doing the same thing. I don’t know for sure if my husband has cheated or not. I think the internet stuff is cheating. He is looking to meet or look at naked pictures of other women. If a man loves his wife, and professes to be a christian why would he do that? I have deep resentments because of this and have asked God to help me because I don’t want to do anything for my husband. I do, but my heart isn’t in it. I don’t trust him. I even found myself buying some trashy clothes in a thrift center so that I can look like what he is looking for, or looking at. What does a woman do in this situation?

  136. Bill says:

    Check out the Discovery Series booklets that RBC offers. These are small, concise little booklets that address many of the topics people have had on this blog. There is one booklet on how to deal with pornography/lust that might give you insight into the causes and how to deal with it. I have witnessed many people lives being changed after reading these booklets.

  137. poohpity says:

    One good thing to do is to bring this issue out in the open nothing changes if it stays in the darkness of secrets. When the light is shed on any situation it may result in change but as long as it stays hidden it is just saying it is OK. You confront the person alone then with two and then before the church and ask for change. You need some help with this problem do not go it alone.

  138. Loretta Beavis says:

    I just started listening to the radio broadcast Discover the Word. You’ve been studying mis-s. Mis-interprets, mis-applieds and lately about marital authority. It is a blessing for me today because the last few months have been so awful. I have other posts about my “problelm” but my husband won’t go to worship (church) unless I do. He insists that’s the only way it can be cause we’re married. The local churches I have attended have “those pastors” and members who don’t want to “deal” with what they see. So I don’t want to go, he gets away with looking like a nice guy and I am the problem. After service, he’s abusive, so I dread going to church because of what comes after. So I’m thirsting for bible study, worship service and ministry. But the blessing is I can LISTEN to your studies. I’m so relieved. I’m going to go through the archives and listen to everything.

    I said something previous about reading the related RBC booklets and learning that I have that (deceitful heart) personality that uses the addict as my own excuse to fail. I couldn’t understand this all my life, not one counselor would tell me. It has been like feeling really uncomfortable, squished, and not knowing why, ’til God quietly told me I was still wearing the too small shirt of my “old man” spirit . I have experienced a lot of emotional relief the last few months because “failing” at something doesn’t hurt the way it did and I don’t need an excuse anymore. I just failed, like any other person does occasionally.

    I had a counselor suggest I read a book about living with the “self-absorbed.” I still am afraid to get a divorce right now because I’m afraid of my spouse. But should I try to live with a self-absorbed on his terms? Where does the Bible talk about this? What publications are at RBC to guide me to what God would have me to do? Has anyone else been through this who can comment? Thank you.

  139. Laus says:

    I would like to post my views on marriage and married life.

    We must admit that God created man first and then woman. Woman is created from man. We have to see for what purpose a woman was created.

    Bible says “The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” Genesis 2:18

    The above verse explains a lot and all wives (women) need to read it many times and understand the truth behind it. The God’s intention for creating a woman is to provide help for man. That is why she (wife) is introduced in bible as suitable helper.

    Frequently a thought of being slavery to husband arises in the wife’s mind, and she say ” I am not supposed to be slave to my husband. Why should I listen to all what he (Husband) says”. All these rebellious thoughts are originated from satan.

    God is not allowing man to treat his wife as slave. As bible says all are free in christ. However the negative thought which arises in women’s mind makes them to fell inferior and and thereby a need to fight is initiated in their minds.

    The suitable helper is leaving her helping tendency and taking job of proving that she is not a slave to husband. This is what steals the peace of women and thereby creates friction in marriage relationship.

    If husband and wife get the knowledge of their roles as per bible, then it is needless to say we have a heaven on our homes.


  140. Loretta Beavis says:

    The July 6, 2010 revisits this blog topic in part, about the submission of wives to husbands.

    Where I get trapped is in being the one who has to “go first” in the “love one another” command…in counseling and conversation, arguments….so, is there scripture that says the husband must “go first” ????

    I’ve separated from my spouse for three months. Haven’t found a job to support myself yet, and don’t have enough money to continue living with “friends.” Even they are frustrated with me, saying I’m stuck and don’t have a plan…so I will be going back to my abusive spouse in about a week-I just don’t have anywhere to live. I’m praying for God to do something and that I will hear His voice in this situation. The domestic violence programs where I’m at now don’t have any solutions either.

    I keep getting asked about when I’m getting a divorce, legal separation, etc.. It does take money, even when you try to do it yourself.

    I feel like Job did in the beginning of his trial, I want to just sit in ashes, cry to myself, and scrape my already painful sores.

    I would like to hear from others who have been through it this way and how God answered and guided them.

    Thank you

  141. foreverblessed says:

    Dear Loretta, as soon as I read this I went upstairs to pray for you. This song keeps ringing in my heart:
    Turn your eyes upon Jesus
    look full in His wonderful face
    and the things of earth
    will grow strangely dim
    in the light of His Glory and Grace

    I pray that this will be real to you,
    It is Jesus who saves, also you in this situation,
    Hold on sister, I hold up your arm in prayer

  142. bubbles says:

    My heart aches for you and your situation. May I ask a question? If you live in the U.S., have you considered contacting CPS (child protective services) in your area? Even though you may not have children, the people there could put you in contact with a social worker. The social worker could be able to help you locate a women’s shelter that would give you a safe place to stay, and possibly some help in other areas. I wish there was something more I could do to help you.

    Know you will be in my prayers. May the Lord encourage your heart, and watch over you.

  143. poohpity says:

    I am reminded that Jesus called the disciples to no longer be fishermen but to be fishers of men. When he first went away they went back to what they knew and started fishing again. After the resurrection he saw them fishing again and then had to remind them to go back to what he called them to do. At first it is so easy to return to vomit cause it is so easy to return to what we know. I know here when one goes to court the court has different options for payment on divorce fillings. Please do not give up when things look so bad. There are options out there. It will be hard, very hard. Because you are separated does not mean that your ex has to give up the responsibility of maintenance. There are legal aid offices all over. If I knew where you lived I could try and help but you also have a computer that can give you lots of info. I lived in my van with both my babies until a place was found and that was very hard but no one suffered because of it. I have a room if that would help and you are welcome to stay here. It will stretch you even more to change locations mean while I will also join forever in prayer.

  144. foreverblessed says:

    Loretta, you speak of feeling like Job. There is a devotional, which describes this, how God can speak when everything looks dim:
    God calling by twolisteners
    Yo can find it on internet if you search with the above line.
    of july 12 it says:

    “Savior and Savior

    If you believe it is My Hand that has saved you, then you must believe that I am meaning to save you yet more, and to keep you in the way that you should go.

    Even a human rescuer does not save a man from drowning only to place him in other deep and dangerous waters. But rather to place him on dry land — and more — there to restore him to animation and health, and to see him to his home.

    From this parable learn what I your Rescuer would do, and even more. Is the Lord’s Hand shortened that it cannot perform and cannot save?

    My cry on the cross of “It is finished” is My Cry of Salvation for the whole world.

    I complete every task committed to Me. So trust and be not afraid.

    Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the
    day of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6″

  145. Loretta Beavis says:

    Thank you, all of you…yesterday I was able to do some bible study and prayer and cry with with a counselor. You know, a local church had an outreach program that was discontinued…she started it up just for me. God answered your prayers in a mighty way.

    I’m holding on here for one more week and then I believe you all, that God will keep me in the way I should go..thank you.

    I do have all of my “stuff” in my van, if I’m asked to leave before then. :)

    I live in California.

    I love you all,

  146. poohpity says:

    Loretta, I am in AZ so come on over you can get a new start from here if all fails there. I will be an option for you. Love Deb

  147. foreverblessed says:

    Loretta, thanks so much for telling, I am so thrilled.
    That we would grow in our trust in God, He always will take care of us!

  148. bubbles says:

    Thanks for sharing about answer to prayer. If you can/have time, please let all of us know how things pan out for you. . . you will be in my thoughts and prayers.
    May the Lord protect you and encourage your heart today.

  149. Loretta Beavis says:

    I moved myself into the front house of the property I/we own down the hill. I can make it here for 30 days or so…all that works is the shower, washer, toilet, some lights and one clean room. The rest is an old house story. But, I see that once again, the Lord has provided all I need, just enough! Poohpity persevered with two babies in a van…I’m in luxury today.

    My spouse is supposedly living in the back garage conversion…although I don’t think he is, not worth discussing…but he has to keep the utilities on!

    Anyway, I made it to worship this morning and the songs were a blessing – answered your prayers for protecting and encouraging my heart –
    Everlasting God, Meet With Me, Lord Reign in Me – the following line really lit up my heart: “strength will come as we wait upon the Lord.”

    I think that many women know in their hearts when a situation is not right or Godly, to “submit” …and that waiting on the Lord is when He gives us the strength, spiritually, to do a Godly action. That is what God expects of women. I’m just beginning to understand.

    Thank you Poohpity for your loving offer. You are an amazing woman-been through so much and going through things with the Godly attitude.

    Thanks, all of you, for your prayers.

    My submission is to the Lord, first.

    I love my Jesus ’cause He first loved me.

  150. Loretta Beavis says:

    Well, a lot has happened, too much to write, but went through another inquisition with a pastor who agreed I could divorce over the abusive spouse. Tried a job in Texas that was a crazy place; kind of a Potiphar experience (but didn’t involve sex); came home. Still going to a local church, people clearly taking sides because I did file for divorce and my spouse crying to them how bad I treat him.

    Authority and submission…got counseled by Pastor and assistant at same local church tonight that Biblically I have no grounds to divorce and am willfully sinning, since no adultery or abandonment.

    I just don’t get it…I’m supposed to submit to the word of God in the Bible and stay in this marriage because there’s no physical adultery or abandonment????

    That to hit, push me, keep money locked up from me, not buy groceries, drive dangerously, throw temper tantrums…that I wasn’t raped, that date-rape is the most that might’ve happened…all the other emotional and physical blah-blah-blah I have to keep repeating so much it’s now a clinical description of myself…
    what do I ask God to do now??? I have to separate myself from the abuse. Or does God want me to live in abuse???

    That is the marriage disconnect…I don’t understand how God set up marriage to be a life where abuse is acceptable.

    My sin of divorce is what everyone can readily see. The abusive sin of my spouse is done with anonymyous witnesses and behind closed doors or the witnesses won’t speak up.

    Really Pastors, I’m to submit to an abusive spouse and stay married as it will glorify God? My abuser did the crying act and says he’s sorry, won’t admit the physical abuse…same old cycle of violence – but who will live with us and hold him accountable for the abuse?

    Thank you for listening/reading this. I don’t understand why God would want me to stay in the abusive marriage. It’s a slow physical death for me if I do; my children are very upset. Spiritually I will die if I have to stay married to him just because I don’t have Biblical grounds for divorce.

    Waiting on my Lord Jesus,

  151. poohpity says:

    Lorette, sorry to hear you gave up what you know was the thing to do because it was not as easy as you thought. When you get fully ready you will do what the Lord leads you to do. It is your choice no one else can make that decision for you. Love Deb

  152. Loretta Beavis says:

    I have been studying 1 Cor 7 and got the understanding I was asking God for when I read the transcript in Help for My Life about the grounds for divorce. Its a dead marriage, my spouse killed it with his abusive, un-Christian behavior.

    I’m just providing the burial service.

    This past week, he has demonstrated the same cruel behavior and viciousness that has been his life with me…he never “moved toward me;” our life has been separate from the beginning, emphasizing that a man must leave, and cleave–he never left his old life when he married me.

    I love him as Christ wants us to love each other. But he abandoned me from the beginning to get control of me. I’m so glad I understand now, and it’s over.

    Pooh and all, you write so eloquently on the blogs, so much God inspired.
    I love you all.

  153. Grace zim says:

    I have been submisive to my husband from the beggining of our marriage but now seven years later i am so miserable i cant even explain it. hes not born again so its part of the problem.

  154. poohpity says:

    Do you feel like you have lost yourself? I hope you understand that being submissive does not mean being a door mat. The ministry of RBC offers a lot of resources for reading, Grace. I hope you find your way out of misery with the help of the Lord. You can not change your husband but you can change how you respond to him.

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