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A Surprisingly Strong Woman

In my last post I said that I find it interesting that Job shows up in the time of Abraham, apparently outside of Israel, with such Jesus-like  social conscience.

Find a similar description of an ideal woman that comes from a time when men were expected to rule their homes, and when daughters and wives were often regarded as property.

In a week when the winner and runner-up of the Miss USA 2009 have been in the news for comments that came out of pageant interviews, I’m especially impressed with an OT passage that recognizes women for their strength and goes so far as to say, “Charm is deceitful and beauty is passing, but a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised” (Prov 31:30).

In the past I tended to avoid this description of a model woman because I’d heard at least one mother of a toddler age child express frustration about anything in Scripture that would put more pressure on a woman than she already has.

Yet what I’ve come to see is that in spite of all of the ways in which the Bible describes men and women as burdened  by the consequences of the curse (Gen 3:16-19), and even though the Apostle Peter encourages husbands to give honor to wives as “the weaker vessel” (1Peter 3:7), the Bible does not simplisticallyencourage us to value men for their strength and women for their beauty. If we look at the whole picture, the Bible does not even encourage us to only value men for their strength of character and women for their beauty of spirit (as if strength of character is masculine and graciousness of spirit is feminine).

It’s with that background that I am struck that the Proverbs of Solomon end with a description of:

A Woman of Strength–Those who know the story of Solomon’s many wives might not expect a collection of his Proverbs to end with a tribute to a woman who is a striking counterpart to Job.

The description begins with the question, “Who can find a virtuous woman” (31:10).

Whoops… need to add that,

According to Strongs Lexicon, the word translated “virtuous” by the King James is translated in other places as follows:

2428  chayil {khah’-yil}
Meaning: 1) strength, might, efficiency, wealth, army 1a) strength 1b) ability, efficiency 1c) wealth 1d) force, army

Origin: from 02342; TWOT – 624a; n m
Usage: AV – army 56, man of valour 37, host 29, forces 14, valiant 13, strength 12, riches 11, wealth 10, power 9, substance 8, might 6, strong 5, misc 33; 243″

With those interruptive details :-), look at how Solomon’s collection of wisdom describes the honorable woman:

“Her worth is far above rubies. The heart of her husband safely trusts her; So he will have no lack of gain….She is like the merchant ships, She brings her food from afar…She considers a field and buys it; From her profits she plants a vineyard. She girds herself with strength, And strengthens her arms…She extends her hand to the poor, Yes, she reaches out her hands to the needy…She makes linen garments and sells them, And supplies sashes for the merchants. Strength and honor are her clothing; She shall rejoice in time to come. She opens her mouth with wisdom, And on her tongue is the law of kindness…Her children rise up and call her blessed; Her husband also, and he praises her: (Prov 31:10-29).

This woman shows that, even if women were not given the social authority of men in ancient Israeli society, they could possess an enormous amount of freedom and personal influence.

In so many ways, the woman praised by this section of Proverbs is a woman who rose above the predicted pattern of the curse.

More importantly, both Job and this woman of strength foreshadowed the kind of concern for others that would someday be personified so completely and perfectly in the coming of the Messiah of Israel and hope of the world.

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39 Responses to “A Surprisingly Strong Woman”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    Yes Solomon is a contrast in his opinion of women. The virtous woman is a model for any of us to follow in that she put the needs of her family above her own.

    Just as we the Church should put Christs need above our own and thereby give honor to Christ by our actions.

    Christianity gives honor and acknowledgement to women. The delicate ballance between men and women who serve Christ should see no gender, only sacrificial love.

    Being Christian isn’t as easy as some would have us believe. We strive to attain the models God has given us in His word. Until the race is over, then we can have peace.

  2. GeeTee says:

    Before I get too involved may I make a brief correction? Proverb 31 begins: The words of King Lemuel…I don’t don’t think there is a Lemuel to be found in the Chronicles or the Kings and it’s supposed that the name is a pseudonym Solomon used, meaning “Belonging to God”. Regardless of the who’s it’s a beautiful passage of scripture. Whoever it was that jotted it down was relaying some pretty lofty ideals. Has ever, or does such a woman exist? The author wants to know “Who can find her?” She is virtuous and morally excellent. A priceless treasure. Able, and industrious. Insightful, and willing. She has integrity, and is gracious. A joy to those around her. She pays close attention to every preparation, and those that know her praise her husband for all her qualities. He receives honor among his associates for having found such a wonderful woman. She speaks well of others, and her family calls her bless-ed. Her husband sings her praise, “Many daughters have done well, but you excel them all.” What a gal, huh guys? Lemuel set up a pretty high standard for what we might look for in a wife, and there’s plenty of women that would come close. Maybe even some that would be everything included. I’ve never been married and can only say that I wish I wouldn’t have read the 31st Proverb so many years ago. It set the bar out of reach for the women I’ve known. But that’s alright, too. My mother comes about as close to this description as I’ve ever encountered, and that’s not just because she’s my mother, either. Mom’s 94 and today’s my day to visit her. She lives with an older brother and really looks forward to each weekend with me. As I mentioned in the post last night, I was an addict for 40 years and you’ve no idea how much worry and woe and sorrow I put her through. She absolutely thrills when I walk through the door now, and she used to hate to see me coming. Thank you Lord Jesus for delivering me from that life. Being 94, Mother can be a bit redundant at times. She’ll start telling me something and I’ll be, “Mom, you’ve told me this a hundred times but tell me again.” What a joy to be alive. My parents were married for 72 years and Mom never kissed another man. A virtuous woman, indeed. She’s outlived all her siblings(5) and my dad’s(8),as well. To quote Mart and the title of todays BTA…”A Surprisingly Strong Woman” Gotta go GT

  3. poohpity says:


    It seems that when the law was given to Moses there were all kinds of provisions made for the social conscience of those less fortunate.

    I find it so overwhelming that our lives when one follows the Lord from the beginning to the end of time, no matter race, gender, ethnicity, we are all develop the heart of God to serve and care for others.

    Charm and beauty will end but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised. I feel the opposite that a man who fears and reverences the Lord is to be praised. It seems that with our female population there are more who believe than men. So when I see a male living a life in process of becoming like Christ it simply amazes me. That is why I really enjoy this site because I enjoy reading your stuff Mart.

    I get a little confused sometimes on how much time is spent on evaluating women when many men have dropped the ball when it comes to fearing and reverencing the Lord. Present company excluded. lol!

  4. laney says:

    Spiritually the dialogue concerning the virtuous woman can also apply to the church and what she ought to be.Thus said we should all strive to be that virtuous woman.

  5. laney says:

    GeeTee, I left you a message on last nights site.A surprisingly good man. Thanks for sharing about your mom.God bless her 94 years old .What a wonderful son to go out and visit with her on weekends.I can honestly say I know the worry woe and sorrow you must have put your mother through.I have a son who has been involved in drugs.Probably still is.I try not to think of it or else I will start to worry and that will do me no good.So I leave it in the best place I can with My heavenly father.That is the big difference in having a son who is saved.You treat your mom with the love and respect that she deserves.I’am so glad our heavenly father let your mom be around to see her prayers answered for her sons salvation.I just hope I’ll still be here to see my prayers answered for the salvation of my children.

  6. Laurielee says:

    Though our world today would rather see no difference between men and women at all, there is an inherent difference. (Besides anatomically) Unfortunately, we don’t see these differences to be as preciously beautiful as they are. We were made to work together and complement, not compliment, each other.

    As I’ve said before, I went to the Bible at a young age, trying to find “the instructions” for living. I had found these verses, and tried to model myself after them. Unfortunately, and conversely, as GeeTee said, it is increasingly difficult to find those that fit our “schema” with which to make attachments. I’ve found out, to my detriment, that you cannot make someone fit the mold that you have set for yourself. It was odd to see a man’s point of view (GeeTee) that so closely fit my son. He’s a very good-looking, 18-year-old young man, who has had dates for every homecoming/prom of his highschool year, and many who’ve WANTED to date him (besides dances), but he won’t. I was a little concerned about this, so I asked him about it. He told me that there just don’t seem to be many that fit his picture of what he’s looking for… though his terms weren’t quite that polite. There seems to be very few young women these days who value high morals. Since my son is not yet a Christian, this tends to narrow the field even more. I’ve taught him good morals, which he’s accepted, but still praying that he accepts Christ.

  7. GeeTee says:

    Silly me. I mean a…forgetful me. When I posted this morning I had every intention of replying to Laurielee’s inquiry concerning where I live, and yup, I do live in CA. Down here at the southern end of the San Joaquin Valley. Buck and Merle country. You know the one Dwight Yoakum sang about “the streets of”. A few words about the NorCal coast, too. Wow! The Cal/Ore border/coast is absolutely breathtaking. I spent 5or6 years(’71-6) up there, albeit inland in Jackson and Josephine counties. Your daughter is so-o fortunate to reside up there. And to go to school in Boston? Even more Wow! New England is beautiful, as well. I made the rounds during the ’70s and ’80s and my most favorite spots were SW Oregon and New England/Boston. Coo-ul! I hope you get to visit or move there or somethin’, Laurielee. It’s good for the soul to be in a refreshing place visually, and the Lost Coast has a tendency to do that for people. And the ‘big trees’ in the “grove of the monarchs’ and along the “avenue of the giants”…ay-yi-yi. They bring a body to proper perspective in the physical. Makes you feel about this big ‘`’ compared to ‘T’, if that can draw a suitable comparison. Now I’ve gone and missed my bus, so I need to say hasta la vista. Second Corinthians Thirteen Fourteen GT

  8. Charis says:

    I’m not sure Proverbs 31 was written by Solomon? The first verse identifies it as an oracle taught to King Lemuel by his mother

    “The sayings of King Lemuel—an oracle [a] his mother taught him” Prov 31:1

    King Lemuel’s mother taught him by her oracle recorded in Proverbs 31 not to be intimidated by a strong woman. A strong woman will be a blessing to him.

    I like verse 11 about the Prov 31 husband:

    “Her husband has full confidence in her
    and lacks nothing of value.” Prov 31:1

    Clearly, she is trusted by her husband to make real estate transactions, etc without being micromanaged and controlled. Her husband views her as completely capable, he does not look down on her as weaker and in need of “supervision”. I thinks its because her husband chooses to have “full confidence in her” that she is free to blossom in the exercise of all her strengths, her gifts and talents.

    I found fascinating that the Septuagint translates the Hebrew “chavil” of Proverbs 12:4 and 31:10 “andreia”, which means “manly” and that the Latin root “vir”, (in “virtuous” ) means “man”! The women of which the Bible speaks in these passages are so powerful as to be referred to in manly terms!

    Scriptures affirm such strengths in women as GOOD! Such “manly” strengths render her a CROWN to her husband!!! Prov. 12:4

  9. Rick123 says:

    Compared to the virtuous woman, the whore woman(Church) is living in the pride of the spirit of the world, which spirit is the spirit of satan. She is naked(without Christ’s white raiment), poor(without the richness of Christ), miserable(without the love, joy, peace, of Christ), wretched(without the abundant life of Christ)

    She is living in luxury with her lover(satan), fornicating against her husband and living in lawlessness, so she is unfruitful to her husband.

    She has a secret affair with her lover, and in the darkness of her secret affair does she show off her pomp-the wealth of all her mansions. Her foundations are not build on solid Rock, but on loose sand and dirt. When the mud slides, and the twisters with hail stones come, they shall shake back and forth like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a worthless hut, and her transgression thereof shall be heavy as iron upon her, and she shall fall, and not get up again.

    The virtuous woman’s house is built upon a very solid Rock, the pillars of her foundation are rooted very deep within the bed rock with claws of iron bars. She is unmovable, unshakable, like a Rock. When the mud slides, and the twisters with hail stones approach her, her house will remain standing, for she can not be shaken nor can she be moved.

    The virtuous woman is like the queen bee, full of strength and honor, her honeycomb is full of golden rich honey. She feeds those of her household, and those afar off who are in need. Her glory resounds throughout the land, and her worth is far above gold. She cannot be compared to others, for her husband’s heart will never suffer lose in his life time, for he is resting in the beauty of her Strength. Which is the fruit of her heart, and the praise of the city.

    Though a woman’s best friend is a diamond, but a man’s best friend is the virtuous woman, cut, grinded, and polished by the diamond cutter, into the beauty of Christ. The beauty of her luster is far more worth then diamonds. The sparkle of her beauty out shines all other gems, for she is one of the kind, and who can find one?

  10. Rick123 says:

    Charis: excellent study, praise God!!!

  11. Mart De Haan says:

    GeeTee and Charis, you are right to question whether the description of the virtuous woman should be attributed to Solomon. I wish I had qualified that. Some commentators believe that Solomon was a collector of many of the other proverbs as well and not necessarily their originator. Whether he collected the proverbs of Lemuel would probably be a legitimate question.

    The New Bible Dictionary says that some Rabbis have tried to make the case that Lemuel is a reference to the character of Solomon (not sure exactly what that means but here is The NBD entry):

    New Bible Dictionary: “LEMUEL. King of *Massa, whose mother’s instructions concerning good government and the dangers of sensuality and over-indulgence in wine are recorded in Pr. 31:1–9. Modern scholars have not generally accepted the rabbinic tradition, which says that Lemuel and the names in Pr. 30:1 are attributes of Solomon, an attempt to credit Proverbs entirely to Solomon
    Wood, D. R. W. ; Marshall, I. Howard: New Bible Dictionary. 3rd ed. Leicester, England; Downers Grove, Ill. : InterVarsity Press, 1996, S. 682

    I guess the best we can say is that it is ironic that Solomon’s collection ends with such a noble and strong view of women when he himself seems to have used them for his own pleasure.

    I’m going to modify the post to soften the direct and unquestioned attribution to Solomon.

  12. daisymarygoldr says:

    It is not just the toddler’s mother. I’m also getting stressed out by Prov 31. Have no business acumen whatsoever and I do not buy or sell anything. Right now we are facing a big crisis at the home front. Friday, we got news from the leasing agency that the tenants had abandoned our house. Yesterday, it was all the more shocking to see the beautiful house in a big mess. I must admit it was my idea for us to have it leased out and move to another place closer to work. My husband is very unhappy with my sense of real estate…

    Getting up while it is still dark? Most of the days there is just enough time for me to simply jump out of bed, hop into the shower and rush to be at work by 8 and yes there are days when the bed never gets made… until just before bedtime! Lazy? That is the exact impression you will get if you see the stacks of dirty dishes piled up on the kitchen counter during the week days. If husband is not in town, I sleep with the Bible under my pillow and with the lights on in each and every room of the house including the bathrooms…

    Strong? is one word that I will never use to describe myself. I am a complete weakling, fearful and cowardly. I cannot do anything on my own…my family does not praise me and I don’t think I’ll ever be able to measure up to “the surprisingly strong woman”. Also, I am the church… and Rick123 is calling me a whore. It is hurting me and I’m terribly sad because I’ll never receive the reward:(

  13. Mart De Haan says:

    daisymarygoldr, I feel the same way as a man reading the description of Job. Whether man or woman we all fall so far short which is why we need to find our identity, safety, and security in Christ.

    But my reasons for writing the post are also to stir up conversation and awareness that there is so much more to life in him than to settle for the assumptions that men need to be strong, women need to be pretty and passive, and all we really need is to be sure of heaven.

    My guess is that we can all agree that to the extent that we are filled with the Spirit of Christ we all have the potential of growing in a spiritual grace and strength that honors our savior on this present journey.

  14. BruceC says:

    U think that this woman is a goal to shoot for; just as their are goals for a man to strive for. Like Paul was referring to in his striving to obtain that goal or mark. He kept pressing on towards it; as we all should. In my life I have met both male and female that I admire for their godly qualities; but the “mark” is to be more like Him who loved and died for us.


    I’m a fellow New Yorker near Cooperstown that truly loves going to the Adirondacks to camp, fly-fish, and use our Adirondack Guideboat. Wifey and I haven’t been there in a few years but hope to again. Where abouts are you from?

  15. laney says:

    Oh Daisy, my heart just breaks for what you are going through.Its not your fault that the tenants abandoned the house.I know what you are going through I had a similar experience.Only this girl did alot more damage to us.Having real estate and renting it is so risky for anyone.You took the risk of renting out your property.Hopefully the leasing agency can better screen and check on anymore tennants if you decide to rent again.I also applaud you for getting up in the dark and going to that job.AT least you are willing to work and not sit home and expect the government to hand you out a check every month.You are not super woman and never will be.No one should expect you to have a spotless home.Just going to work every day then having to come home prepare meals and keep up with the laundry it exhusting enough let alone trying to keep the beds made.Just to let you know you are not the only fearful one sleeping with there bible.I have to admit I’m guilty.I do the same thing.When ever I get frightened over some of the end time events or have a bad dream in the night my hand is reaching out on the bed for my bible for comfort peace.At least we know where to go to find that peace and comfort.Strong is not a word I can use to describe my self either.Fearful and cowardly yes I’m.Especailly when I think of us now being so close to the Lords return.I’m afraid I will let my Lord down if ever I have to be tortured or killed for my faith.It wouldn’t be so bad if death was quick but if I had to be in pain I don’t think I would measure up and I sometimes fear I would denied my Lord and end up in hell because of it.I’am also the church but I don’t think Rick is calling us a whore.I thought what he wrote was beauitful.It so blessed and touched me.

  16. mtman says:

    I hope I’m not to presumuous in replying to your post but what you describe as how you live is not that alarming from my vantage point. It makes me think of Luke 10: 38-42, with Mary and Martha. I have read your past posts and I consider you very well grounded in the Lord and I for one admire and treasure your comments. Are you not just like Mary who was sitting at Jesus feet listening to everything he had to say? Wasn’t her sister Martha the one doing all the work? Wasn’t Martha the one complaining that Mary was not doing her share? Didn’t our Lord himself commend Mary? So why are you beating up on yourself? Who did Jesus imply was the strong one here?
    So you have a lot on your plate. That strong woman that Solomon describes may only be in his mind. Who can actually be that woman, or a man like Job? I know that a woman does not run General Motors but I’d lay you odds that a woman runs the man who runs General Motors.
    What I’m saying is – that perfect woman may only exist in Solomons imagination; but we all have special gifts. For one woman to have all of them is pretty far out. Even the present day female CEO’s of corporations don’t possess all of them like Solomon describes. Your gift is being able to express the gospel in terms people can understand. I’d say that gift is right up there at the top of any list. In my mind at least I would prefer a woman with virtue and a healthy fear of God than one who could be as perfect as Solomon describes. That woman may be a delight to her husband but she would intimidate most men I know. As I think back through history I can’t seem to put a name to that ideal woman. You are on top of your game gal, don’t denegrate yourself because you can’t keep all the balls in the air at one time. If that strong perfect woman does exist, what makes you think she will be in heaven when we all get there? Part of the problem with people today is they try to be something they are not. CherieLyn posted a few days ago a story about clay balls. I’d rather have one of those clay balls than the strong perfect woman Solomom described. From ome far away Daisy I see lots of clay balls that contribute to this blog. You’re clearly one of them so be strong and keep doing what you do so very well.

  17. laney says:

    What I came away with after reading about the whore church was that Rick was talking about the apostate church.Daisy you have the love of Christ and the peace of Christ.We have the peace that nothing or no one can seperate us from the Love of God no matters what happens.You and I are that virtuous woman not because of any thing we have done or can do but because of what he has done for us.Our Father will always see us as virtuous because of Our precious Lord sacrifice for us.

  18. Laurielee says:

    Daisy, May G-d hold you safely today. What a boring world this would be if we all had the same talents! I always admire your ability to communicate clearly with others. Besides, I think your getting up and going to work, among the other things you do IS taking care of business…the work put before you.

  19. daisymarygoldr says:

    Thank you everyone for your kind words! Now, I’m not feeling all that awful as before…though my husband is still not very happy and has no words of praise for me. I do not blame him either… because it is true I do not match up to everything that has been said about the proverbial woman. Personally, I do not know of anyone else who matches that description. Listening to all your comments, I’m sure no one living in this world can claim to be any where close to fit that epitome of perfection.

    mtman, you are right, King Lemuel himself was still searching for the virtuous woman which means she is very rare to find. Who then is this surprisingly strong woman? I agree with Steve and Laney that this depicts the Church who is being prepared as the perfect wife of Jesus Christ. MartDeHaan, you are right, as humans we all fall short…and that our strength is in Christ.

    However, as I read Prov 31 again, what is really interesting to me is that it is not the social conscience of the Prov. woman that is rendering her as virtuous or strong. The Bible says that her husband is well aware of many women who do such noble things… but this woman excels above them all… not because she has Jesus-like concern for others… but because she “fears the Lord”!

  20. daisymarygoldr says:

    It is all the more interesting that the same is said about Job. Job, the good man in his own eyes… turned out to be not so good after all. Otherwise there was no need for him to repent. In fact when he rambled about his social conscience God had to shut his mouth up and correct Job’s perspective. In the 1st chapter he was considered upright and blameless because he “feared God”.

    What does it mean to fear the Lord? “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” (Prov 9:10). There are many outside the body of Christ, who have social conscience and are doing noble things in their own human wisdom… but it is only the Church who stands above them all. She is the only virtuous woman in whom the Lord delights… because she fears the Lord.

    In Acts 9:31 the 1st century church … grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord.” Today, in the 21st century if we say we identify ourselves with Christ, our only identity is in His body— the Church! Let us then work out our salvation with fear and trembling by allowing the Holy Spirit to work in our lives… so we may please God by worshiping him acceptably with reverence and Godly fear. Hebrews 12:28

  21. mtman says:

    Your last two posts vindicate completely what has been said about you. You are back on your game…. Good insight and posts Daisy.
    As a side thought and just my warped sense of humor, if I were Solomon and had all those wives, I would be looking for a virtueous and perfect woman too. The demands, the bickering, the many kids, everyone demanding his time. With all his wives can you imagine what it must have been like for him?

  22. poohpity says:

    If one combs through the noble character of the Proverbs 31 woman she acts in love towards her husband and her children. She seems to make sure they have food, clothes, household goods, and makes the best of her abilities. This woman is described because of her character she speaks with wisdom she does not gossip or slander she encourages her husband, her children and helps her neighbors because she loves the Lord. She laughs at the days in front of her because of the trust she has in the Lord. She takes care of the things at hand or in front of her.

    The opposite would be that she would be in everybody else’s business while leaving the things in her own home and neigborhood undone. If she were to go around complaining, argueing and stirring up trouble then she would not be bringing praise to her husband or family. The same with Job he took care of the opportunities that were before him and wasn’t running around doing harm.

    These descriptions were of Job’s righteousness and a woman of noble character. Job was right with God and this woman minded her own business and feared God.

  23. daisymarygoldr says:

    Laurilee, I agree about how boring it would be if we all had the same talents. In fact, we would never need each other in the body if each one of us is capable of doing everything that is described about the proverbial woman. This is the beauty that is seen when different members each specialized in their own talent unite together as one beautiful body— the virtuous and chaste wife of Christ!

    mtman, you are right again about Solomon. He was the wisest man on earth with so many wives and women… and yet he could not find the perfect wisdom personified as the woman in the book of Proverbs. It goes to explain that it is just not enough to get wisdom… wisdom is perfected only when it is applied or followed. Let us be thankful that today, by grace we the Church have someone greater than Solomon… Christ…the wisdom of God. 1Cor:1:24. So mtman, no, you don’t want to be like Solomon, do you?:) … you and each one of us would want to grow up and be like Christ!

  24. laney says:

    Daisy I say amen and amen.Yes will all want to grow up and be like Christ.I’m glad you have your spiritual armour back on and your not beleiving the lies of satan.He would love nothing better to see us down and defeated.I’m glad the spiritually strong Daisy I have come to know and love is back.
    Mtman I love what you wrote about Solomnon and all the kids.I always wondered how he found the time for all these wives let alone run a kingdom.
    We had some snow here the other day but thankfully it didn’t amount to anything.

  25. mtman says:

    No Daisy, I wouldn’t want to be like Solomon. No way, no how. I was just pointing out with all those young ladies he married that a virtueous and wise woman would be a real day off for him. Its all I can do to love and cherish one wife let alone one for each day of the week. Just my warped sense of humor that I would wonder how he even found time to breathe or that he had the energy to crawl to his throne each day. Just playing with all those young uns would wear a guy down. I mean how did he remember who he gave what set of ear rings to and who he gave in what order. I’m pretty happy with the one wife I have, I think I will stick to that. You’d figure that someone as wise as he was would have figured that out though, wouldn’t you….

  26. donjo says:

    Ruth and Boaz are also said to be “chayil”, or having valor. It is a term of honor that can apply to either gender. In the Jewish Tanakh, Ruth comes a few books after Proverbs, so the 3 times usage is easier to see.

  27. GeeTee says:

    Lotta good posts these last couple days. You’ve done it again Mart, and we thank you. Always a good thing when we’re inspired by anothers’ words to consider what might be slipping by. All too easy to get caught up in what’s in front of us and let the “real deal” get put on the back burner. You ladies have given us alot of insight on how things are understood by women. Personally, I hold the view that there are some things in Holy Scripture that are precisely how they appear(literal translation), and there are other things that are allegorical(some prophecies/the parables) and require a more determined effort to derive the true meaning of. The Spirit of the Loving God is our Helper where these things that are somewhat hidden from our first look comes into play. If we truly desire to know…prayer and contemplation is my method. I believe that God’s grand design for His Word is that we would study it diligently and prayerfully. There are some that may think they have been given a supernatural power to extract from the Word some “new” understanding, but I myself don’t consider this to be true. That being said, may I? Alreet. I read the 31st Proverb and I understand it to be a literal reading of that which the author’s mother taught him. About being the king that he was by birth and how to be just and true in fulfilling his duty to his subjects. About women because she knew that a king had his choice of how many and who. Let these qualities in a wife be the standard by which you use to measure. Do this, and all will be well with you. I admit that it’s simple to take a look at the qualities mentioned and transfer them to what we think the Bride of Christ should demonstrate in the world. And then again, I believe that how we should present the Body of Christ to the world is found in the New Testament. After all, don’t we as men and women need to have something other than outward appearances or financial successes to determine who we should marry? If I would try and find the virtuous wife by a standard that I’m using to fashion what I myself would be as a member of the Body it could be confusing. What we are as a member of the Body/Bride is a work that’s being done(sanctification) by the Holy Spirit on an ongoing, daily basis. I will only be everything the Lord Jesus would have me to be when he comes to gather us unto Himself. Until then I’m trapped in this bag o’ bones. I can be wholly, totally, and completely surrendered to the Spirit of God living the life of Christ through me at one minute, and in about the bat of an eyelash I can revert back to that “old” me over the slightest little annoyance. I also know that it shouldn’t be that way. Ever the realist that I am though, I know it can. And does. Not to be discouraged by some fleshly action or thought, I press on. Gotta go ‘fore I get carried away. Thanks for all the encouragement y’all…for a minute there I thought it was just me. GT

  28. laney says:

    BruceC, I have been to Cooperstown.Several years ago I was the supervisor for the town of Forestports summer youth recreation program.We took about 65 children ages 5 to 17 to Cooperstown.We went to the baseball hall of fame.I lived in Forestport for about 20 years.I just moved to Boonville 2 years ago when my husband passed away.If you don’t know where Forestport is have you heard of Old Forge.I’am about 35 miles from Old Forge or 35 miles from Utica if that is any help.Where in the Adirondacks did you go camping and fishing?Hope you and the wife can come back again.Do you have black flies where you live?That is the only problem in the spring and early summer.You get eaten up by the black flies.Those bites annoy you for a good couple of weeks.I enjoy the spring summer and fall but i don’t care for the winters here.To long and way to much snow.I hate having to drive in it.Other wise it is quite beauitful here.

  29. Rick123 says:

    laney: You reflect Christ’s attitude toward others.

    The only woman I see that could exceed the virtuous woman, is the mother of Jesus-Mary.

    She was a great woman, for she saw her Son, our Savior, grow from a little tree to a huge powerful tree, mighty in the power of the LORD God of Israel.

    The sword pierced her heart at the foot of the Cross of her beloved Son. Great was her sorrow, seeing her Only Son, a unique Son, her firstborn(firstson) being delivered up for her(Mary) sins.

    Yes, the Only Son, dying for the sins of her beloved mother-Mary. What mother is there like her? that could have gone, what Mary went through. Knowing that her Only Son was dying for all her sins, and was taking upon himself(Christ) the wrath that was upon his mother from God his Father.

    Truly Mary was a unique woman, blessed are you among woman, for she carried in her womb our salvation, and the salvation for herself.

    Her Savior became one flesh with her in her womb, therefore she is the greatest woman ever born on earth.

    Now Mary said, this is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh, He shall be called the Savior, because he was taken out of woman.

    But you are he that took me out of the womb, you did make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts.

    I was cast upon you from the womb, you are my God from my mother’s belly, but a body have you prepared me:

    Holy Holy Holy is the LORD God Almighty, who was and ever will be, begot the Son of Mary.

    Blessed be Mary, who conceived the Son of the LORD God of Israel.

    Worthy Worthy Worthy is the Lamb, who came out from the heavenly Father, and from the womb of Mary, his mother.

  30. poohpity says:


    How do you think Mary felt when she realized she was kissing the face of God?

  31. laney says:

    GeeTee, I have never for one minute thought That I have been given a super natural power to extract from the word some new understanding.I just got out my Jimmy Swaggart Expositors study bible and opened it up to Proverbs 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman for her price is far above rubies.JS wrote that the virtuous woman can also apply to the church and what it ought to be.So after reading that I assumed that this could be taken both ways literally and spiritually.I was just passing on to everyone what I had just read.Maybe I misunderstood him.If so I’am sorry.The words of King Lemuel,the prophecy that his mother taught him.[“Lemuel” was another name for Solomon.His mother was Bath-Sheba.The senseof this proverb is that his mother kept teaching him continually.}taken fromJimmy Swaggart expositor’s study bible.

  32. Laurielee says:

    I’m directing this post to Mr. Mart, or anyone else that can help me to understand.

    We have descriptions, as with the above proverbs, and many other places in the Old and New Testaments that tell us the ideals or qualities that we should strive for, though we are unable to fully achieve them in our own strength.
    In church this morning, our lesson was on the fact that we are saved through what Christ did, and not what we do. (Though I understand that in Him, the old has gone, the new has come, therefore we live for Christ, which I fully believe.)
    There are also many places in the Bible that tell us how to distinguish between good and bad behavior, and that we are to correct each other.
    I know that faith without works is dead, but we are saved by grace alone. (Saved FOR good works, and not BY good works.)
    Paul says that, “G-d forbid, we should do what we want.” (paraphrase)
    So, do we correct each other’s behavior, or not?
    Does it mean that anyone can do anything, and that the guidance in the Bible is merely a suggestion?
    Are the “suggestions” for behavior only for Christians?
    If someone were to rob someone, wouldn’t the believer and the unbeliever both be disciplined?
    I guess this is coming about because all of the talk here in Iowa. Tomorrow they will start issuing marriage licenses for same-s*x couples. There is one thought from people that we are all interpreting the bible wrong, and it doesn’t really say that homosexuality is wrong. There is, of course, another thought that it is wrong. There is also the group that tell us to keep the Bible out of their lives. Myself, I hear all the talk, but the only absolute authority I have, and the only confidence, ultimately, I have, is in G-d’s Word. And if an angel from heaven were to tell us other than what is written, we are not to listen. I corresponded with a textual analyst, who told me that in all the fragmentary Scripture we have, it is very clear that the text references do indeed say that a man should not lie with a man. For it to have been otherwise would have to have been a conspiracy of great proportions. (Especially since many of the writers never met each other. Which also would take G-d breathed inspiration out of the equation.)
    Do we simply flounder around, just HOPING that we’re doing what we should?
    Do we keep our understanding of the Scripture to ourselves and NOT share our thoughts with others???

    Would you all mind giving me your thoughts on this dilemma? It’s making my head hurt!

  33. daisymarygoldr says:

    Laurilee, I’m sure your Q will be addressed. Please don’t let your poor head hurt about it too much though…praying that you’ll be filled with His peace.

    Laney, I am really thankful to the Lord for blessing me with such wonderful people like you and the others here. I will always struggle with the proverbial woman who makes me feel very insecure and weak but when I was weak God strengthened me through you. Thank you Laney, for your encouragement and your insights… you have blessed my life!

    Mtman, I’m totally with you on King Solomon. Will never be able to figure out that personality…

    Donjo, I was also thinking of Ruth who represents the Church… and was considered a virtuous woman (Ruth 3:11) by Boaz— a type of Christ. That threshing floor scene in which she submits herself at the feet (not head) of Boaz… is packed with such deeply enriching spiritual truths.

  34. GeeTee says:

    I understand your concern Laurielee,believe me. We just went through that whole sm-sx ordeal here in CA. Civil authority began to issue license…the populace got enough signatures to get it on the ballot and voted against it…the state supreme court overturned the voter voice and reinstated…another petition to get it on the ballot and it was voted down again & now it’s back to square one with the court ready to overturn. The hmsxl lobby is huge here in CA and will get their way, no doubt. There’s probably as many hmsxl’s in CA as there are people in IA, and whether it’s civilly and socially acceptable isn’t the guideline that we as Christians should use in our acceptance or displeasure of that lifestyle. Holy Scripture addresses the practice on more than a few occasions, so get the Book out and take a look. Exodus18:22, Lev20:13, ICor6:9, and in Romans 1:26-28 it’s stated in terms not quite as explicit, but definitely implied. Should we take a tolerant approach and say nothing? As we’re revolted inside and have love in our heart for those involved and find ourselves agonizing the fact that they don’t wanna hear about the deviate lifestyle they’ve chosen, what exactly is it that we’re to do? Man…tough one. That old “I ain’t hurtin’ nobody don’t hold no water”. They might not be hurting me singularly, physically, but the overall effect that decadence and corruption has on society as a whole is the real damage done and collectively we pay. Psalm12:8 “The wicked prowl on every side, when vileness is exalted among the sons of men.” There was an appellate judge that was a Supreme Court nominee about 20 years ago by the name of Robert Bork. After his rejection to the court he wrote a most accurate(in my eyes) expose of America titled “Slouching Towards Gomorrah”. Among the many topics he touched on that were bringing about the not only ‘dumbing down’ of the US, but what he considered to be the collapse was TOLERANCE. In order to be politically correct you must be tolerant of any and all agendas that are not your own, no matter what. And now we’re seeing what I term as “churchianically correct”. Enough damage can be done when an unregenerate world does all those despicable things…but when the church(I use the term loosely) tolerates these behaviors in any way so nobody gets offended I can say that it’s probably pretty much all over but the cryin’. It’s a sad state of affairs and it ain’t just America. So I empathize with your dilemma Laurielee. Believe me. I know hmsxls and have shared my testimony with them, but they want no part of anything that condemns them. And the Word of God does precisely that. Hey! It condemns us all, and everything we’ve ever done until we receive the grace and mercy of God that the Lord Jesus gives so freely. I can only suggest prayer for those who are lost and to be gentle and kind should opportunity to witness to them occur. I don’t really think walking the picket-line in protest is an effective way to address the situation like some folk do. But that’s just me. Up-page ‘laney’ kind of insinuated that I……?? Hey, I’m just an ol’ guy that takes the time to search the scriptures, and I am not afraid to correct something that is apparently off course. But as a rule and custom I address my disputes to the person by name. Much more effective that way. But as long as we’re on topic I’d like to say to all: “Be cautious when you pick up any personalized study bibles, commentaries, expository stuff, prophecy stuff, annotated stuff, all kinds of writings and so-called “new” revelation stuff.” There’s a conspiracy being worked in these last days by that “other guy” and his legion to do evrything they can to deceive us. Be on the alert. There are those who cling to distorted teachings and understanding because they can not reconcile their logic with the plain biblical perspective and revelation. As such, all scriptures are interpreted in a way that supports their own presuppositions and in line with their own human logic and reasoning. Thanks for listening. GT

  35. Rick123 says:

    Laurielee: We are his new creature(new man), with the Mind(attitude) of Christ in Jesus to do his good works, which God the Father prepared before that we should walk in them. So we should let the light of Christ shine before men, that they may see our good works, and glorify our Father which is in heaven.

    We should take heed to all the counsel of God’s scripture, for it will make us wise unto salvation, of the knowledge, of the Son of God. It will profit us in doctrine, it will reproof us, and correct us, in the way of what is just.

    What does God desire of us? He has showed us, what is good. And what does God want of us? but to do justice, and live in love, and mercy, to walk humbly with our neighbor and with our God.

    To love and have mercy for the poor, the needy, the unwanted, the sick, and despised of this world.

    Let us not close our heart to them, nor laugh or speak evil against them, for their Creator will hear their cry from his throne. Remember He that sits enthroned as King forever, makes poor, and makes rich, He brings low, and lifts up.

    Let us do good unto all people, and be full of good works, ready and willing to give what power God have given in our hand. That we might be zealous, and rich in good works toward God.

    In (Luk 12:15-21), Jesus said to take heed, and beware of covetousness, because our life does not depend on the abundance of things we own. He then spoke a parable about a certain rich man who produced a lot of wealth in his life, and when he was full of wealth, he said unto himself, what shall I do with all my wealth? He then said unto himself, I will build a large bank for all my wealth. He then said within his heart, I am abundantly rich to be at ease for many years, and to have a lot of parties. But God visited him at night, and said unto him, you unwise man, this night your candle will be put out, to whom will you leave all your wealth that you have acquired for yourself?(Luk 12:21 So [is] he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God….Tts 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.)

    In another parable, Jesus spoke about three men with God given gifts that were given unto them according to their ability. One was given five gifts of the Holy Spirit, the second one was given two gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the third one was given one gift of the Holy Spirit.

    The one with the five gifts made another five gifts, and so likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. But he that had received one gift from his Lord, used it not by faith.

    And as time passed by, their Lord returns, and deals with them about what they had done with the gifts he had given them. Unto one he said, I have given you five gifts, and you have gained five more. Then said his Lord unto him, you did good, my good and faithful servant. You have been faithful with the few things I have given you, I will make you king to rule over many things.

    Unto the one who had received two gifts, his Lord said unto him, I have given you two gifts, and you have gained two more. Then said his Lord unto him, you did good, my good and faithful servant. You have been faithful with the few things I have given you, I will make you king to rule over many things.

    Unto the one who had received one gift, the Lord said unto him, I have given you one gift, and you did not use it, you lazy and wicked servant, you should have used it by faith, and therefore gained one more for me at my return.

    Take away from that evil servant his gift, and give it to him who has ten gifts. for unto him that has, shall be given, and he shall have a lot, but he who has not, even what he has shall be taken away from him.

    Take that unprofitable wicked servant and cast him into the outer darkness, and there shall be crying, and grinding of teeth.(Tts 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.)

    Tts 3:8 [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

    Hbr 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

    Same sex marriages according to the bible are not right but twisted. If they continue to take a stronghold in society, they will be mocking God’s divine order of his human family.

    No man made law on earth can supercede God’s divine moral code of conduct, which is in heaven(Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail…Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:)

  36. mtman says:

    Homosexuality is considered an abomination in the bible. Others have properly cited the references. So is murder, and many other sins. We all sin and fall short. Homosexuality is a sin and should be dealt with that way. It existed for a long time but was never as much in your face as it is today. Our society is decaying and there is much pressure on us Christians to accept it or at the least not to speak out about it. Those who want to sin will continue to do so as long as they think it is accepted. To show toleration to an openly sinner is not what we were called to be. They must show some repentance and turn from their sin. I don’t see that happening. Are we in the last days as the bible describes? I don’t know but what I do know is that we consider the good ole USA as our center of the universe and that is wrong. We are focused on what is happening here and in other parts of the world things are much different. Sone worse and some better. I don’t think we can consider just because things are bad here that it is the end of the world. Maybe it is the end of our world as we know it.
    Is it any suprise that so many are being drawn to the Muslem belief? They deal with all the things that are pulling us down in a straight forward and harsh manner. Those churches who simply want to be politically correct and “love the sinner and hate the sin” are not speaking up for what their teaching stands for. If you want to see the end result of that thinking look at the Episcopal Church. They have a confessed and active homosexual bishop. Or the Catholic Church with the priests abusing young boys.
    So do you speak up, I agree with GeeTee that walking a picket line may not be the answer because there will be another one with a sinful point of view across the street shouting you down. I think you have to either speak up when given the chance or abandon your faith and let the rocks cry out, because they will. There are many ways to do that but less confrontational. I would say if you weep for anyone – weep for those who are so caught up in sin they refuse to turn away. Regardless what that sin is. Is it any wonder the rest of the world sees the USA as the great satan? We make homosexuality attractive, we kill our babies, we flaunt our sins in the eyes of the world. Those who are weaker nations have no choice other than accept it. Those who choose to sin are in the headlines and those who oppose it are silent for fear of hurting anothers feelings or offending anyone. It is what it is, it is sin because the bible tells us so. No you should speak up and when you do you will be attack for sure. So you need to be prepared. Satan’s best tool is for people not to believe he exists. To the rest of us he keeps us under personal attack. So if you don’t stand for something you will end up standing for nothing. Then Satan is the victor.

  37. Laurielee says:

    Thank you all for helping me with this! I guess what’s really upsetting me is…the Christians! Those of us who’ve stood up and said that this is wrong have been called bigots and unloving by the Christians. I do not want to do or turn G-d’s word around to what He does not want me to. I don’t want to go along my merry way thinking that I’m doing what the Bible tells me to do but getting it all wrong. I don’t hate anyone. If someone needs help, I am not going to first ask if they are saved or unsaved, gay or straight, or whatever…BUT I don’t want to lead them into condemnation by acting as if what they’re doing is ok. I also want to point out that as I’m talking about others, I’m a sinner too. A forgiven one….but that doesn’t mean that I don’t continually grow, too.

  38. Charis says:

    daisymary said:
    It is not just the toddler’s mother. I’m also getting stressed out by Prov 31. Have no business acumen whatsoever and I do not buy or sell anything….

    ((((cyberhugs)))) I prayed for you, sounds like a lot stress on your plate at the moment!


    I just wanted to add- about the Proverbs 31 woman, that the instruction is from King Lemuel’s mother to her son, ie this is not directed at woman as a perfectionistic “standard” for us to strive to live up to. This is directed to a young man as a “what to look for in a wife” kind of teaching. What comes across strongly to me is that this mother does not want her son to be intimidated by a strong, capable, gifted woman, but to embrace such a woman’s strengths.

    (and daisymary, you are a strong, capable and gifted woman, even if it isn’t necessarily in “real estate”)

  39. laney says:

    GeeTee, Please forgive me for asuming that you were talking to me.This has turned into a blessing for meI took to heart what you said about the study bibles and commentaries.I have been praying about this.This pastor has said that the Lord had him write these expositor’s study bibles because the bible is so hard to under stand.I said to my friend what happened to the Holy spirit helping us to understand the bible.I forget what her answer was to that.Now his grandson is writing one for the teenagersThis pastor has suggested we buy these for everypastor and person you know you need to get them into there hands it is changing peoples lives.My friend has been doing just that telling me that the holy spirit is showing her who to give to.Meanwhile I’m thinking it’s not the holy spirit its JS telling you to do this.One time watching there live church service I said to my friend that I felt the worship was more of enterainment than worship.Well she informed me that I don’t know the Holy spirits anointing.For a while I went along with her because She knew so much more of the bible than I did so I always looked to her to guide me in the right direction.I do like some of JS church services and at times I have felt the Holy spirit anointing.I guess what I’am trying to say is that you confirmed what I have been already thinking and praying about.that is taking his word on how he has interpret the bible.Thanks again Gee Tee for looking out for us. God Bless you.

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