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Notre Dame, Obama, and Abortion

President Obama’s speech yesterday at the University of Notre Dame, together with the decision of Chief Justice David Souter to retire from the Supreme Court, will heat up the abortion issue this week.

Followers of Christ will once again find ourselves in the middle of a debate that will test our wisdom.

It will test our wisdom because for many of us the matter will not be whether we believe abortion is wrong, or whether we will abort our own flesh and blood. The issue is whether we believe the government should continue to extend to citizens of the United States the protected right, and even financial assistance, to have an abortion.

The abortion debate will further test our wisdom because as a nation we already have expressed our political voice on the ultimate “sanctity of life issue.”  There is not a greater “right to life” and “choice”  issue than the “freedom of religion” that allows us to accept or reject Christ.

The abortion debate will also test our ability to remember the experience of past attempts to make unenforceable laws. The era of prohibition in the 1920s showed us as a nation what happens when a law ends up having the unintended consequences of making a moral problem worse rather than better.

In the decades that followed we also gradually realized as a nation that, even though the 10 Commandments criminalize adultery, it is impossible, under present conditions, to enforce the law against consenting adults engaging in the sin that produces unwanted children.

Seems to me that this is not the time to engage in scandalous, lies about our President (such as “this president never saw an abortion he didn’t like”). Instead it is time to pray for our President who in his speech at Notre Dame acknowledged that, while the moral debate should continue about whether abortion should be legal, we can “agree that the decision on whether to get an abortion is heart-wrenching, not made casually, “with moral and spiritual dimensions.”

So what can we do? We can (1) affirm and live as if accepting and maintaining a right relationship with Christ is the ultimate answer to the sexual sin that produces unwanted children– or that subsequently decides to abort them. (2) To pray that those who have already had abortions will experience the life-changing forgiveness of our Savior. (3) To speak carefully and compassionately about all of the issues that contribute to unwanted pregnancies and children. (4) To recognize the difference between Church and Government, and that while as a church we are free and encouraged to live in a manner consistent with our faith, democratic government is by nature “the art of compromise.”

When President Obama called on both sides of the abortion debate “to tone down their rhetoric and search for common ground,” he was speaking as a president, not a pastor. He was speaking from the office of one who is elected to uphold  the constitutionally protected religious freedoms-which are at the root and heart of the abortion issue. He was also speaking to “two sides” that historically have been so unwilling to give an inch of “political common ground” (that no side wants) that civil debate has given way to a culture war that is as self-defeating as abortion is morally wrong.

Note: To provide help for those who are experiencing the lingering aftereffects of an abortion we have a booklet: “When the Pain Won’t go Away.”

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140 Responses to “Notre Dame, Obama, and Abortion”

  1. macsisson22 says:

    Chamberlin, Churchil, and Europe come to mind whenever I think of what this administration is doing. We need someone who will stand and fight, not give away our land and ports. Paul did not say pacify! He said stand firm!!!

  2. bretnb says:

    We need to pray that President Obama some time soon that his eyes are open to what a unborn child goes through while being aborted. That it wakes him up to take the stand of a true Christian.

  3. BruceC says:

    One again I typed a lengthy response and my connection died! The icon said I was connected but when I tried to enter it it was lost. I will have to use MS Word and then cut and paste so I don’t lose it gain. Be back later or Tuesday when I regain my composure.

  4. SFDBWV says:

    I would like to first of all express my belief that abortion for the convenience of the mother or father is nothing less than child sacrifice. Sacrificing the unborn child to the idol of “Self”.

    Having said that, I also understand that the matter of enforcement of laws becomes tangled in social and economic issues and even apathy.

    The prohibition showed us that we can not enforce laws where people are going to continue to embrace the issue and violate the law. I could say that the current drug situation is the same failure in law inforcement.

    People are going to get whatever they are after and there will always be someone there to provide it for them.

    Abortion is no different. People will either be able to go to a licened doctor and get an abortion or go to some person who will provide the service for a fee.

    So what are we to do as a people? Say that because people will continue to buy illegal drugs, we should legalize the sale of them and make the drug traffic safer and cleaner?

    This is what we did when prohibition failed.

    This is what we did when abortions continued even though there were laws against it.

    Are we a self governing people? Then let the majority decide.

    But during the last 40 years what I have seen is that the minority has over powered the majority by pressuring courts to reinterpret what laws already protected we, the public.

    What voice has the all powerful federal appeal courts in our nation been listening to? Certainly not the majority.

    We either elect people and make laws with the idea of following a code of moral behavior paterned after the Bible, or we reinvent a new moral code paterned after something else. I am affraid that something else is “Self”.

    Obama is a very smooth talker, of course he wants the opposing sides of the abortion issue to tone down their rhetoric. It is “he” that during his first 100 days in office removed restrictions against abortion and once again put our government at odds with the Christian majority and Church in America. He picked a fight and then wants the other side of the issue to be quiet.

    Our nation will not go unpunished for it’s sin. God will not be mocked.

  5. laney says:

    Right now we have the freedom to accept or reject Christ but our freedoms in this country are starting to be taken away from us.Our military chaplains no longer have the freedom to pray in Jesus name.There are petitions on the internet to block federal government attackson freedom of speech and freedom of the press.Yes the president was elected to up hold our constitution.But there are many now in Washington who have there own agenda and they will stop at nothing to acheive their goals.They are not going to let the constition get in their way.
    This new health care that Obama wants puts the elderly at risk.They are going to have a panel and on this panel they will decide if it cost effective to treat a patient.If a patients quality of life cannot contribute to the community are they worth spending money on to prolong their life.It will just be a matter of time when this will be the next culture war.With this new health care even if you have the money and don’t have to use insurance the Doctors have no say.this panel will get to decide.I also read that doctors and nurses will be forced to do abortion even if it is against their religion.In the netherlands they are now allowed to have abortions just because of the sex jender.If a couple wants a boy instead of a girl.
    I read an article how over in china they have these trucks that go around and when they arrest some people they put them in this truck they have doctors in there who inject the person and kill them.Then they take the body parts and sell them.The Lord said that before he comes back that evil would get worse and worse.
    I don’t know what the answer is.Maybe if all the christiians stand together the way the muslims do but only in a peaceful way can that make a difference.Being silent surely hasn’t helped.
    This is why we need Jesus to come and rule and reign.Man was never meant to rule.Come Lord Jesus.

  6. cor13agape says:

    Mart: Very well said and very well written, however the problem is now ideology. Some of us Christians are following our ideology more then the moral code of God.

    Yes we have the Ten Commandments, as well as other moral teachings of Christ.

    I like you, hate abortion it makes my blood boil, yet however I must think of what Paul says in
    1 Corinthians 13
    “If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.”

    Could the above passage be read this way, “If I fought for the moral issues of God but do not have Christ it profits me nothing. Or how about, though I make laws to insure that everyone is following the moral issues of God but I don’t tell them about Christ, or they don’t except Christ, then following the moral issues of God profits them nothing.

    I have said once and thousand of times, Satan get’s us to focus on the result and not the cause. The cause of our moral decay in this country is because people don’t know Christ.

    How many who stand so hard on a moral issue, turns on the TV and watches shows on channels like Fox which are so moral degrading. Yet they or their children come to church and laugh how funny the show was. Or share with their neighbor, what a great show it was, what mixed massage our we sending?

    Our we not acting like the teachers of the law that Christ called whitewashed Tombs ( see Matthew 23:27. Oh how I grieve not only of my sins but those of my fellow Christian.

    Let’s start individually living God’s word, Let’s start ensuring that our place of Worship is not dead, Let’s us make sure that we our holding our self’s, members of our family and members of the body of Christ to the high standards that we put on non- believers.

    I myself was lost, in sin, I myself could not keep the Law of God. No not till He the Christ came into my life with His Spirit have I been able to live a life the can be pleasing to Him. Yet I am a sinner saved by grace.

    If we want to see moral change the our light must shine, if we live no different from day to day then our non-believing neighbors, why should they be interested in Him our Savior, if we don’t show in our lives His Love.

    Jesus never once spoke out against the strong immoral acts of Roman and non- Jews, No he spoke out against the Jews and their teachers. May I suggest you read Matthew chapter 23, for I fear the church has become like the Pharisees.

    Let’s clean up our own house, those who see may just see how beautiful our house is and copy it.

  7. Tunmishe says:

    As much as I totally object to abortion in the strongest terms, I look to the response of Obama at Notre Dame and one stikes me.

    The most important contribution I think He made is that we on both sides of the divide, should look at how to make sure the abortion decision never takes place. Those are the words of a ‘latent pastor’ if I can put it that way.

    I was wayward in every sense of the word while growing up, and I must have been responsible for up to 20 abortions of various women I had relationships with.

    Today I am pastor to many in a growing congregation and I travel the world to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ. The only thing that gives me any right to do that after killing so many children is the atoning Blood of Jesus, and the love that he had for me while I was yet a sinner.

    Instead of all the rhetoric and playing judge to the actions of others, why don’t we spend time praying for and supporting leaders who at least see a need to prevent abortion so that that the choice never needs to be made in the first place.

  8. Loretta Beavis says:

    Amen on 1-4 !

    Abortion is selfish and the alternative to responsibility. I almost made that choice long ago…and it wasn’t a stereotypical circumstance.

    Pregnant women need compassion and guidance to raise their children; in some instances responsible and loving adoptions may be a wise choice. There is a huge sense of abandonment for a pregnant woman…

    Men who are fathers to “unwanted” children also need compassion to learn that there is value to responsible “fathering” and that it is the kind of pride-if you will let me use the term-that God would want.

    I have a son who has stepped up to responsible fathering; I can’t detail things, but
    my part, as a Christian, was to keep nudging him with gentle words and some support to find purpose in commitment instead of running away from responsibility just because everything in the circumstance wasn’t close to perfect.

    Ferocious condemnation of public and popular sins (as if there were different ratings) by the Christian I have been in the past, and sometimes still am is what shows my hypocrisy, and scares off people who need to find the “common ground” through a loving God, the personal relationship with One who is trustworthy, Jesus…

    I don’t think I’ve phrased this all well, but point #3 is the inspiration for my response.

  9. nputtick says:

    I don’t see how there can be any common ground when it comes to the question of abortion. God has spoken clearly and left no wiggle room. “Thou shalt not murder” leaves no room for debate on the position God takes on abortion. Science has removed any doubt about when life begins. It begins at conception. Unless you want to ignore God’s commandments, you cannot “give an inch” to those who want to continue to murder God’s gift to man.

  10. laney says:

    SFDBWV,You are so right God will not be mocked I beleive he has already started judging this nation.there is a process for a nation to be taken over by iniquity.People will not turn from their sins.When a society is friendly with iniquity then we are subject to Gods judgement.
    The ordinances of the amorites.The bible warns when homosexuallity becomes an ordinance, social custom or norm it will bring Gods judgement on a nation.
    Leviticus 18:24-27.America has become like the ancient pagan amorites and has now come under the judgement of God.The legalizing of abortion was an additional ordinace of the Amorites.Homosexuality is fast becoming a constitutional right the only ordinace left to fullfill is beastiality.If God judged Sodam he will defiantely judge us.Just because we are the United States of America will exempt us from his judgement.
    You can see his hand of Judgement on California.The fires, they are going bankrupt.Just last night they had a 4.7 magitude quake that rocked L A region.I beleive that also had to do with The presidents meeting today with Israel to give away their land.Every time we pressure Israel we have some kind of diaster here.God said he would Bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel.Our God does not lie and he does what he says he will do.There is an article that I did not get to read yet but it is about radical muslims wanting sharia law in New York City.The only hope for our nation is for the church to truly turn to God and repent of our sins so he can heal our land.We need revival in the churches before we can have reviaval in our land.

  11. laney says:

    I meant to say just because we are the United States of America will not exempt us from Gods judgement.

  12. poohpity says:

    We are not responsible for defending God because he does not need us, He is God. We are however given the command to help the weak, the poor, the fatherless, the homeless and the widows. The unborn can not defend themselves and if we can not take a stand to defend their rights what does that say about what we believe. If we are the body then why are we not using our hands for good to help people feel loved so they will want to live a life for God.

    Because we are consumed with self there are children that sit in our churches who cut themselves, do drugs, have abortions, and many more devastating things like judgment and criticism that is given when someone walks into a sanctuary that does not fit the mold of our “Christian beliefs”. When we sit in judgment as if we are God and do not serve those who need the love and acceptance of God as we once did, then they do not want to come to a safe place and be healed by our Lord.

    I have had an abortion and the effects on me as a woman are devastating knowing that I killed a little baby. It seems that those that stick up for abortions have never had one, go figure.

  13. poohpity says:

    PS thank you for the prayers, that and the music helped a lot. We go to get the latest on my mom’s cancer today. We have such a faithful God even when we are not. Gosh, I love Him.

  14. SFDBWV says:

    In the OT, Israel’s leaders led the nation into idolatry. The common people did not lead the kings or political leaders into sin. It was the other way around.

    We elect our leaders, if our leaders take action that leads the nation toward sin, we should then seek leaders who are our allies not our foes.

    The abortion issue is a political debate. Highly charged with emotion and to blame the Church for the current political atmosphere surrounding it, is in error.

    Roe vs Wade started the firestorm we still are dealing with today. The law suit filed in court claimed the mother had been forced into sex and so the baby was an unwanted pregnancy. The US Supreme Court used this case to legalize abortion, nation wide. It turns out now that the mother who started it all lied about the facts surrounding the case. She has appologized for her part in bringing the issue to the point it has reached and has herself become a Christian.

    You can’t blame Roe vs Wade on the Church. Once the US Supreme Court entered the issue, it became a political one.

    Read 1 Kings, start where you like. But be sure and read of Elijah and his roll as the voice for God up against the evil rule of Ahab.

  15. pegramsdell says:

    Pooh, remember, Who’s report will you believe? We will believe the report of The Lord! He’s says we are healed, He says we are filled……
    I’ll keep your mom (and you) in my prayers :)

  16. BruceC says:

    Proverbs 14 -34. Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

    If abortion is not sin what is? I think many times we forget that there is a difference between judging sin and condemnation. “Judge not” does not mean we cannot call sin sin. It means we don’t condemn. We leave that to God. But we are to judge sin as it happens in our life, the Church, and our nation.
    Calling for common ground on sin is a slick-tongued hoax which IMHO this president is expert at. When was the radical left looking for common ground when they assailed traditional values starting with school prayer and all the other things they were against? There was no such call! They attacked and attacked until they got their way and now that some disagree they look for common ground, debate, discussion, etc.; all for the purpose of dragging this out ad nauseum with no clear cut decision. The majority of people in our nation are now against abortion. Our president is a student of Sol Alinksy who wrote “Rules for Radicals” and says that church views must be embraced and then changed so the goal may be reached. In plain English he speaks of deception for his purpose.
    What does light have in common with darkness? Water with oil? None!
    As one poster said there is no wiggle room. Either abortion is right or wrong!
    Remember how this man joked snidely about those who “clinged to their guns and religion”? That wasn’t supposed to get out. Remember when he made fun of(publically) the people who “waved tea bags”? The object for the radical left is to destroy traditional values and the influence of Christians and the church by marginalizing them. He may be intelligent and a great orator; but God sees the heart and we are told a tree is known by its fruit. I am not without sin and perfect; but my “works” do not include being one of the most radical supporters of abortion in politics as our president is. I think he will tickle your ears and cut your throat. He is trying to buy people off with rebates and stimulus checks.
    Our nation; though not ever perfect, was once a shining light of hope and good values to the rest of the world and now that light has dimmed. There are some in our own land who want to turn that light off.
    I will respect the office of president and every human being. But I will not respect his values, his goals, or his slick talking. Teach yourselves to recognize deception when you see or hear it. It is on the increase.
    As one poster said we as believers are to make sure our churchs are full of truth and forgiveness and that our love must shine to show others the grace of God. Does that love not shine into the womb? Are we to sit idly by while this goes on and not speak out? I believe we can set a good Christian example, live our lives for Christ preaching the Gospel AND still let our voice be heard.
    I’m sorry if I seem harsh. But sometimes the truth is. I will pray that God turns the heart of the president so that we will truly know him by his fruit.

  17. rokdude5 says:

    I, too, hate the whimsical use of abortion – just to make one’s life more convenient. I cant help wonder when I see a woman leave church service crying her eyes out during a Mother’s Day sermon because she was dealing with her past of having an abortion.

    Bear in mind, like I said before, what the Supreme Court wrestled with in Roe vs Wade wasnt the issue of whether any State can have abortions. They were struggling with the issue of how intrusive do we want our US Government to be? In other words, they felt every citizen has some protected privacy from one another and especially the government.

    For if abortion became illegal in US then the only way it can enforce this completely is to require every woman from 9 to 90 to go to a US health clinic EVERY MONTH and submit to a pregnancy test. Do we really want our government to have that much power?

    I personally dont think in this country, we are a reflection of our political leaders but our leaders are a reflection of us. I pray that somehow God would guide us in reaching out into our communities to educate women (and men) of other choices in dealing with unwanted pregnancies and hopefully bring a lot of lost souls into His Hands. Once people can see other better choices, then issue of abortion will become moot only to be used in extreme life-saving situations.

    I remember long ago when one of my assistants became pregnant. She asked me where she can get an abortion. I told her not to do that but have the child and put it up for adoption when the time comes. About a year later she came to me to show off her new baby. She was a proud happy momma. Of course, she kept the baby.

  18. BruceC says:

    Here is a quote some may find interesting:

    • “…The abortion-rights folks know it, the anti-abortion folks know it, and so probably, does everyone else. One of the facts of abortion is that … it is a form of killing … you’re ending a life.” Ron Fitzsimmons, Executive Director, National
    Coalition of Abortion Providers, New York Times, 26 February 1997
    Do a Goggle on Carol Everett; a former abortion worker and Dr. Bernard Nathanson who is one of the founders of NARAL and read about how deception is used to skew numbers and outright lie with the help of most of the media. It’s an eye opener. Dr. Nathanson is now a Christian along with Ms. Everett. I heard Nahtanson on Christian TV.

  19. Mart De Haan says:

    BruceC, is it a sin to reject Christ? And if so, does that have any application to your argument. Maybe not. Am just trying to think through the logic.

    One thing I don’t think we can say is that whether we accept or reject Christ only has implications for ourselves.

  20. BruceC says:

    Yes it is Mart. And the only sin that can keep one out of heaven. All other sins may be forgiven. But does that mean we should not have laws against murder, theft. rape, etc. They too may be forgiven but yet we deem it necessary to pass laws against them because of their effect on society.
    How can abortion and prohibition even be compared? If one has a casual drink at a 1920’s speak-easy does it compare to taking of a life? I don’t think the two can be compared. Passing laws does not make the crime go away; but it does lessen the occurence does deter some from committing them for fear of punishment.
    To give you an idea of where I am coming from I have spent 27 yrs. in law enforcement so I know that do not stop all wrong activity. My wife; due to her Mom taking DES while pregnant with her cannot have children. Wer have none. We looked into adoption but were told infants were scarce due to abortion. Making very little money at the time we found the costs even back then excluded us from adopting. So that is why I get so ired over this issue. I may appear illogical at times; but then when is the taking of a human life truly logical?

  21. BruceC says:


    “Bear in mind, like I said before, what the Supreme Court wrestled with in Roe vs Wade wasnt the issue of whether any State can have abortions. They were struggling with the issue of how intrusive do we want our US Government to be? In other words, they felt every citizen has some protected privacy from one another and especially the government”

    Do you consider laws passed to protect your life and property from others to be intrusive by the government?

  22. BabyJ says:

    I honestly do not understand these debates. Can someone help me understand how we as Christians decide what issues to stand firm on and which issues to let lie? In the short time that I have been what I consider an informed person, I have seen us protesting against abortion and homosexuality as if these are the only issues on which God has spoken.

    Didn’t God say that we shouldn’t lie? Or that we shouldn’t covet our neighbor’s belongings? That we should honor our parents, or not use his name commonly? That we should have no other gods but him?

    You know, not once have I heard or seen anyone protesting a lying politician. Is anyone angry because people consult plastic surgeons to change how they look? If we are all made in his image, isn’t changing his image to fit what man thinks is beautiful a sin? Or does anyone protest because we worship our celebrities and hollywood?

    Please do not misunderstand me. I do not agree with abortion. I would never have an abortion myself. But really, who am I to judge anyone for what they do? All sin is sin in the eyes of the Lord right? Why is it that we are so quick to take a national stance on the “issues”, but its only the ones we are sure we “don’t do”. Why don’t we as the body of Christ represent against all the things that God has spoken against? Why are we so surprised that the world is doing what God said it would do?

    I feel like as a church we need to “take the logs” out of our own eyes before we can change the world. I also agree that we should be praying about the world rather than jumping up and fighting on these issues. I feel like a lot of our tactics are not in love, we have chosen a stance and we fight to be right.

    I just really don’t understand how we can pick and choose what we are going to stand on without standing on all of God’s laws. And more so, sharing his life changing love so that people make the decision not to sin because God is in them rather than because they are keeping the “law”.

    I don’t know, these are just the things that always come to mind when people start these discussions.

  23. OGramps says:

    Hello All,

    There is so much posted that I agree with. In my mind abortion is infanticide just as Herrod ordered in an attempt to kill baby Jesus.

    A lot of you will remember a series of videos, and books that were out several years ago entitled, “The Late Great Planet Earth”. (I may not be quoting the title accurately).

    That series supposed that with what was happening at that time with abortion and what has been seen historically, the world was moving down a pathway that leads to the elimination of non-productive individuals from society, the elderly, disabled etc. It was truely a frightening thought, and a wake-up call.

    During the Ronald Reagan era the “Religious Right” as it has been called rose up and through participating in the system did slow down or temporarily stop our nations movement down that path.

    It doesn’t take a genius to see that our county is once again picking up momentum to move down that pathway. Our Lord called us to be salt and light. Yes, we ought to pray unceasingly for our country, leaders and people but even more we who are of the body need to be quietly involved in our govenment and permeate it with our salt and light.

    Many ways that this can be done: Write the President and our representitives, Volunteer to work at the polls, run for local offices the list is only limited by our creativity.

    The people of God did it before, I think it’s time to do it again, before things get out of hand.

    God Bless,

  24. OGramps says:

    Hi Again,

    Sorry, I did mis-quote that series. It was “What Ever Happend to the Human Race” by Francis Schaffer.


  25. BruceC says:


    Does one have to remove all the logs out of ones eye to speak out against sin? I don’t think that is what that verse means. It means for us to take the log out when in introspect we are guilty of it ourselves; does it not? Can we not speak out against robbery? Rape? Cannot we not sit on a jury in a criminal case? How does one get convicted of sin if one is not told of that sin either by others or by the Holy Spirit in the heart of a believer? We can choose not to get involved; that is our choice as individuals. But what happens if the day should come that ‘hate speech” laws are passed and pastors cannot preach on certain issues without fear of prosecution? Or churches need to register and get sermons approved as in other countries?

  26. Mart De Haan says:

    BruceC,I appreciate your willingness to talk about this. How do you, as a former law enforcer, look at the issue of enforceability?

  27. TheTrinity says:

    As I read the various posts relative to this discussion, I’m reminded as Christians we are not of this world but in this world. To that end, we are called to “walk in excellence”, to be a light, to conduct ourselves in a manner that will draw people to us and provide us an open door to lead others to Christ.

    If we are about being Ministers of Christ, then I’m struck with name-calling of others by Christians. This debate about abortion seems to bring that about. I know of no one who loves abortion. I know of no one who thinks it great to kill a baby or babies.
    I do know that Christ gives us choices. Yes, He could make it so that we all worship Him but, He would not get any Glory form that. We have a choice. Life or Death. Sin or Happiness. Love or Hate.
    If I’m not mistaken, when the Pharisees were attempting one of the many times to “trick” Jesus regarding Ceasar, did he not say “give Ceasar what is Ceasar and to God what is God’s?”

    We cannot legislate morality. I believe government has no place in our bedrooms, living rooms or any room in our homes. Government should not decide what I do with my body. However, I have a mighty God that I must answer too. A Loving God that I must seek for any and all decisions. A Powerful God that government cannot touch.
    To that end, should we not be about “reaping the harvest”? To help bring others to Christ by how we live our lives, how we handle ourselves? Should we not be about providing teaching/education that will allow people to make the right decisions?
    And, should we be consistent in this debate of killing. Not just babies, but others that are murdered day in and day out in the name of war? Is that not killing too? Is that not against God’s Commandment, “thou shalt not kill”?

    When we speak of this outrage of killing babies, are we not thinking of those babies that are abused, that are without food to eat and dying of starvation right here in our own country? Are we not thinking of those children who seek adoption?

    Maybe, we should look at that the total picture. We bring people to Christ, we educate, we work to provide services to help children waiting to be adopted, to revamp the foster care system, to provide better resources overall to allow for better decision-making. For it is well known, the more informed an individual, the better the decsion-making process. Why not be better informed of Christ?

    One last note, I also recalled years ago, right here in this country, when people who attended Church, many holding positions in Church, who attended services on Sundays and then killed in the name of the Lord on Sunday evenings.

    It seems to me “thou shalt not kill” applies to all. Let’s pray for our president and this country, for prayer changes things.
    Thank you and God Bless!

  28. BruceC says:

    This will be my last post on this subject but it is food for deep thought. Someone once said “that it is not a question of legislating morality; it is a question of whose morality gets legislated.”

  29. BruceC says:


    I said my last post was my last but I will respond to your question with another. How are any laws enforced? Traffic, fraud, robbery, etc.? Through investigation, compalints by citizens, and observation. We have laws against speeding and I wrote a lot of tickets. Did I get them all? No. Did the other officers nationwide? No. But the fact there was a law on the books and that it was being enforced reduced the amount of speeding and the number of accidents. Look at drunk driving. It is vigorously enforced and the death rate went down. I remember before the big push that my little dept. was sometimes investigating a fatal at least once a week in a county of 60,000. It is way down. How was illegal abortion enforced prior to Roe vs. Wade? In the same manners as I stated above. Do you think we would have had 40 t0 50 million abortions since 1973 if R. vs. W. never happened? Of course not. Did you read the link to Dr. Nathanson and see the intentional skewing of numbers?
    Would anyone here be in favor of the recinding of laws that protect children from physical and sexual abuse? Of course not. Then my question would be; why do you not vigorously push for laws protecting the child while it is at its most vulnerable time?
    It is not a question of a woman’s body either. It is a question about the life of another body carried within her.

  30. daisymarygoldr says:

    BruceC, your emotional burden regarding abortion is understandable and it is all the more sad to hear your personal devastation due to DES caused infertility… praying for God to comfort you and Mrs. C.

    Speaking of estrogen… the high dose of birth control pill regimens not only prevent conception they also prevent implantation of the conceived embryo… causing an “early abortion”. It makes one shudder to see the rate at which it is being consumed… given the fact that these chemicals are extremely potent synthetic sex hormones that have disastrous effects… which include deformities in human embryos… and has been proved to cause male feminization.

    Just FYI: Of the 10.4 million pill users in America, over 5 percent, or one-half million, get pregnant each year… and then we foolishly blame God for creating homosexuals….don’t we? Sorry for harping on the ills…

  31. daisymarygoldr says:

    Mart, this gruesome subject is articulated very well! I fully agree with 1-4. I also agree with the fact that issues of abortion are deeply embedded within the root cause of sin. Except for medical reasons, abortion is merely a lame excuse for society to shamelessly indulge in sexual sins

    …at least that is what I am led to firmly believe when I consider sex-education programs based on contraception not abstinence… and schools teaching the practise of safe sex and alternative homosexual lifestyles.

    What really bothers me, an outsider… sojourning in this country while raising my child in this culture is… the undeniable fact that sexual promiscuity is equally rampant amongst believers within the Church as it is in society existing outside in the world. The Church is certainly within the world but it is agonizing for me to see the world system thoroughly infiltrated within the Church.

    So… after reading the post and the comments above my Q is: “If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?” Look to President Obama for help? No! …he is not the foundation… and you are right the abortion debate raised by him will test… it will test the very foundation of our faith. Who is the foundation of our faith? Not the President… not the Government… It is Jesus Christ!

    Just as I cannot impose Jesus on others I also cannot impose moral laws of the Bible on others. However, I am accountable for the house of God and my heart resounds with cor13agape’s “Let’s clean up our own house…”

  32. daisymarygoldr says:

    I don’t know what “kind, loving and compassionate” measures the Church leadership here will undertake to clean up the house of God but as for me… my call is to love my neighbor as myself and the closest neighbor next to spouse is my child.

    I am therefore, called to ensure that the foundation is well laid right in the early stages of childhood i.e. to “Train the child in the way she should go (and not in the way that she wants to go… or the way the world would want her to go) and when she is old she will not turn from it.”

    The abortion debate is a sure wake up call for the body of Christ, to train our children… to be well-rooted/grounded in the Word of God which says that sexual relationship is honorable within marriage but condemned outside of marriage.

    As Godly parents if we train them by our own example, then regardless of the influence of value-less and immoral environment of society, our children will grow up to walk in the fear of the Lord, to flee fornication and abstain from sexual sins….

    It must be noted that the freedom from Law does give us the liberty to enjoy God’s grace in Christ… but followers of Christ do not have the freedom to participate in sexual sins and still choose abortion in order to avoid the responsibilities and pay for the consequences…

  33. daisymarygoldr says:

    Then and only then God’s house will not be like salt without its savor to be judged as hypocrites… but by its high moral standards in Christ we will impact the transformation of our surrounding culture… of course we don’t have to defend God’s truth but “…we need to be standing up for what we believe in…” – Rachel Donovan, 21, of Irvine, Calif.

    Then and only then God’s house will be a light to the dark world engulfed in sexual fornication and abortion… God’s house will be a city set on a Hill… a beacon of love and hope for unwanted pregnancies and a refuge house to shelter and save… cold-blooded murders of unborn children…

  34. Rick123 says:

    If the columns be overturned what can the righteous do? When the noblest, the defenders of what is right and good, have perished. Who will cry out? for, behold, he that sitteth in his holy temple. The LORD’S throne on high, sees men’s heart, his eyes move and try the children of men. For he will not grant the desires of the wicked, nor will he let their wicked devices go any further. But they will be brought low, lest they exalt themselves. For it would have been better for them not to be born, then to offend one of these little ones. For I tell you that my heavenly Father’s face is always being seen by their angels. The LORD will not let an evil speaker be established in the earth, for he will cover their lips with their own confusion and mischief. Their sin is weighted down as with iron to the deep pits of hell, and their evil is being stored up, for the day of slaughter. For burning coals shall fall upon them, and every nation that forgets God shall be turned into hell.

    For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers, but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. The LORD trieth the righteous, but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest, this shall be the portion of their cup. The ways of the wicked are ways that go down into the chambers of hell. But the ways of the righteous are ways that lead up to the chambers heaven. For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

    The wicked in his craftiness will be overthrown, and evil shall hunt him for his violent deeds, for he does not regard the works of the LORD. They offer up their children to their gods, to be burnt in the fire of their sinful heart, for their sins burn as the fire from hell. Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, you people, lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

  35. mtman says:

    Abortion is murder but so is pointing that invisible gun at someone, pulling that trigger, and acting like they don’t exist. I like BabyJ’s post because it points out that we are quick to blame others for their sin but slow to see out own. When I was a criminal investigator the only murder case I ever handled was a self induced abortion and the baby tossed in a trash can. That was before Roe v Wade and it was a crime then just like BruceC has said. When you see something like that you tend to not like law breakers in any form. You still do your job though.
    As Christians if we don’t stand for something we will fall for anything. But to blame the President is wrong. Very wrong. That man has heavy burdens and he needs prayer. My e-mail is flooded with rotten things about him every day. He did not boycot National Prayer Day as suggested. I researched that and he did what all presidents before him did with the exception of Pres. Bush. He was not in office yet before he was attack viciously. I have watched him and his family and I think he is a good man with a very tough job. Someone posted earlier that he was satan incarnate. I see a man who is doing exactly what he said he would do if elected. He does not need to be abused for doing his job.
    We are a polarized country on politics, on abortion, on freedom of religion, on homosexuality, on so many things. Our rights have not been taken away from us, we gave them up. Now it seems all we do is gripe about it. We all think we are the one who is right and everyone else is wrong. We lost the art of listening and hearing.
    My wife and myself went to the first large anti abortion rally in DC. We have been against it from the start. No one dislikes it more than we do.
    Our President is called to uphold the law. Abortion according to Roe v Wade is the law. His personal opinion is not what controls but the law. He should not be attack because of that law. People are so polarized these days that no one can come together on any issue.
    I have said it before and I’ll say it again, those in other parts of the world see us as the great satan. Looking from their eyes it is not hard to see why. I wonder if God has turned His face from the USA? Just like he did Israel. We have in my opinion sunk to a new depraved standard in history. We have gone from a Nation of God fearing people to sick depraved people.
    It is not the presidents fault, it is our fault. We were silent and apathetic when these changes were being made and now we don’t like it. We can’t put it back together again and make it what it once was. Only our Lord can do that. Those are my thoughts on the matter. I don’t think we have anyone to blame but ourselves.

  36. BabyJ says:

    I know you said that was your last post. I apologize if anything I said upset you. I understand how a topic so close to home can affect you. I honestly am not sure what else to say to you. I am going to join the others in praying that the Lord comfort and keep you and your wife.

  37. BabyJ says:

    I don’t believe that we can’t speak out against societal ills, or crimes. It does however bother me when we pass judgement on why people do the things they do. In many interactions with other Christians I find myself asking, where is the love? I interpret that verse as a reminder that we should be extremely careful in how we judge others. To me it is a reminder that we need to be honest with ourselves and take an inventory of our own thoughts, words and deeds before we speak on how others should act. The world will not conform to our beliefs, therefore why are we trying to make it do so? You win more flies with honey, and I think we can better spread Jesus’ love by showing love to others. I am learning how that unconditional love works now amongst friends and it is so reassuring, healing even. If we could show that kind of love to non-believers, I think we could get much further in helping people change how they look at life.

  38. wretch-like-me says:

    Dear Friends:
    One of the hardest things for me to do is step back in a moment of emotion and take a long hard look at the larger picture… sometimes the other person’s perspective is no clearer than before; however, once in a while I catch a glimpse of something I never considered. I like to call those moments ‘God-Sight’.

    Abortion(like so many topics)is boiling with emotion. Consider God’s Glorious Perspective. Abortion is Sin. Sin is anything contrary to God…God Is Love!!!

    God created you and me and wants the very best for us. Long before He created us, He had a perfect plan for our lives. (Perfect because He makes nothing imperfect)
    Everything He creates has purpose.

    Long Ago, He decided that giving us Free Will was the Only Way He could insure Our Love for Him in return would be honest, sincere and fulfilling. Sure, it was risky. We could reject His Love and many have. But, for those who have accepted His Love(Jesus) He is not only pleased…He is devoted to our eternal happiness thru Glorification in Heaven and Sanctification while still on earth.

    What is Sanctification while on earth? God desires our focus be on living as ‘little christ-ones’. Jesus came that we might imitate His life with our own. How did He handle adulterers; prostitutes; women and men who had fallen to the temptations of flesh (Is there any temptation that is not a weakness of the flesh; for sin is our nature!)

    God is grieved by sin because each time we sin, we plunge of dagger of rebellion into His Loving Heart. Would He have us condemn our brothers and sisters for their weaknesses while we excuse ourselves for our own?

    Or would He have us encourage them with kindness, love, understanding and christian charity? Make no Mistake. I do not propose that we condone sin. Sin hurts all of us because it hurts God. However, sin is after all a deception in the first place. It promises something it cannot deliver.

    Do any of us understand the far reaching consequences of our own sin; yet alone the sin of others? Forgiveness may be had for a contrite heart; but, the damage is done and seldom can be reversed. Failed marriages, failed relationships, failed businesses, failed mortgages, failed lives…

    How many of us, as parents, have watched our children make painful mistakes after being instructed and warned of the potential dangers? Is not God our Heavenly Father?

    His instruction is for our own good and happiness. He wants the best for us; but, He will not force us in the path of righteousness. We should consider the way He chooses to rescue us from ourselves thru Jesus Christ.

    Beloved, there is much more at stake here than the USA. As great a nation as ‘she’ may have been or may yet be, she will fail for she is the creation of mankind.

    The evil we decry is in ourselves. Cast not the first stone. Instead, reach out with open hand and help someone up. “I dont know how you feel; but, I know what it’s like to fail…to feel hurt, embarrassed, ashamed, fearful, hopeless, lost. Can I offer friendship? a listening ear, a cup of coffee and a hugg?”

    God preserve us according to His Plan.
    In the meantime, may we all take to heart His instruction and example thru Our Lord, Jesus Christ.


  39. daisymarygoldr says:

    BabyJ, thank you for sharing some real good thoughts! You are right, we can better spread Jesus’ love by showing love to others. I agree it is bothersome when we pass judgment on why people do the things they do. Hope none of my comments on this page sound judgmental. Was there a suggestion in any of the responses to not show love to non-believers? I’m sorry you missed the love in your interactions with other Christians.

    BabyJ, if you are sensing a lack of Jesus’ love in this place then please, be assured of unconditional love of Jesus among Christians here in this blog. Welcome to the blog and I look forward to reading more posts from you!

  40. Rick123 says:

    I believe if the human heart does not have a change after(in) the Image of Christ, things will just get worse. This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all [men], as theirs also was. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    We should always be knocking at the King’s door. And he spake a parable unto them [to this end], that men ought always to pray, and not to faint; Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary. And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man; Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me. And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith. And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others.

    If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened; but God has surely listened and heard my voice in prayer.(Psalms 66:18, 19)

    Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong. Why then do you tolerate the treacherous? Why are you silent while the wicked swallow up those more righteous than themselves?(Habakkuk 1:13)

    If anyone turns a deaf ear to the law, even his prayers are detestable.(Proverbs 28:9)

    But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and stopped up their ears. They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the LORD Almighty was very angry. When I called, they did not listen; so when they called, I would not listen, says the LORD Almighty.( Zechariah 7:11-13)

    But since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my rebuke, I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you, when calamity overtakes you like a storm, when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind, when distress and trouble overwhelm you. Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me.(Proverbs 1:24, 25, 28)

  41. Mart De Haan says:

    The Scriptures are clear that God is involved with the development of a child within the womb.

    But regardless of our personal beliefs, we cannot prove from the Bible when a fertilized human ovum arrives at personhood before God. All we have are possible rather than necessary implications of Scripture.

    That’s why I believe those who fear God need to err on the side of caution.

    Down through history people have used various statements in the Bible to conclude that we become an eternal soul at conception. Some have believed that it happens when a developing child becomes able to live on it’s own outside his/her mother. Others think its when the first breath is taken after birth.

    Old Testament case law gives an interesting precedent when it says,

    Exodus 21:22 ” If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 “But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 “eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 “burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

    Jewish rabbis have often translated this as the New American Standard Bible does and suggest that this refers to a miscarriage of a child who does not survive due to physical injury to the mother. They routinely use this text to suggest that the Bible assigns a lower value to the miscarried (unsurviving) child than to the mother.

    Predictably there are those who argue that the word “miscarriage” could result in a surviving child.

    The truth is that the Bible does not directly say when a personhood begins. Again, I believe that one fact gives us reason for caution, and at the same time reason to not say more (i.e. attach authority to more) than the Bible says.

    We may say on the basis of our judgment that we believe abortion is murder. But we don’t have God’s word on that. If the traditional rabbinic thought is correct the Exodus 21:22 says the opposite.

    We lose nothing by humility on matters we don’t know. We do lose credibility and maybe even our ability to speak in God’s behalf by saying more than we know.

    More than i.e. “morning after pills,” late term abortions reflect a special disregard for human life and for God in whose likeness we are made.

    Seems to me that while maintaining the integrity and good faith of our own conclusions (i.e. without personal compromise in practice), we could consider it a victory if, along with voters of other religious convictions or no professed faith, we could affirm and sustain law against unjustified late-term/partial birth abortions.

  42. SFDBWV says:

    “Ephraim, is joined to Idols: let him alone.” (Hosea 4:17)…The point of no return…

    Ephraim was a collective term for the ten northern tribes of Israel.

    Their leaders had passed the point of no return. So God says through Hosea, let them alone to their idols.

    Because I love my native land, it breaks my heart to see it so lost in sin that it no longer can even tell right from wrong. Have we too, passed the point of no return? Has God abandond us to our Idols?

    Should I be quiet? Should I be like the people who stood in front of Jesus when Pilate ask what do we do with this man? This Jesus? Do I join in the spirit of the crowd? Or do I stand for Jesus? For righteousness?

  43. bretnb says:


    A good moral man would not have voted three times against protecting babies from being thrown in to a bucket to let die. I could go on but that alone speaks volumes on Obama.

  44. BruceC says:

    I apologize to all here for posting again after saying I was done.

    Would you kindly expalin to me what you meant by this?
    “that civil debate has given way to a culture war that is as self-defeating as abortion is morally wrong.”

    Especially the part about self-defeating. I think those that use violence to stop abortion is self-defeating but if we fight the good fight in love how does that fit? Germany was faced with what could have been described as a culture war in the 30’s and very few people stood up. Look at the outcome.
    I would also like others to consider the Dred Scott decision of the Supreme Court; especially our president. Had that remained the “law of the land” he would not even be president and blacks would liley be considered less than human. Yet (and correct me if I am wrong) Lincoln practically ignored it and issued the Emancipation Proclamation.

    I also think of an all loving, all knowing God who knows the beginning from the end (all things through all time) and that He knew us before our birth. So you could say that in God’s mind we had life at that point.

    Thank you Rick123 for reminding us that God is not just a God of love and mercy but also a God of judgement and that some sins he looks at as a sin of the nation.

  45. foreverblessed says:

    Since Mart de Haan pointed out: when does life start?
    I want to add: some may seemingly know for sure when life starts: at the conception.
    But how do we know that?
    When everything is allright and the baby is born, then afterwards you could say:well it all started at the conception.
    But say, the fertilised egg was not OK, too many faults. It arrives at the urterus, it cannot properly settle, and is lost.
    Was that a life lost?
    Is that life now in heaven, in the children’s corner, waiting for its parents to show up?
    What do I become any better considering all these things?

    Here in the netherlands we have a ministry that helps pregnant women to consider to keep the life. Isn’t that what we should do? They advertise a lot, they are a positive sign to the world around them.
    Do the positive things, in a sinfull world.

  46. mtman says:

    I’m not sure how Obama is to blame for three babies being thrown into a bucket to die. I seriously doubt that he did it himself. Ironic as it is the hate e-mails and demeaning comments and cartoons I get about Obama are from Christians (?).
    What I have read here is that BabyJ and a few otherposters seem to understand and actually get it. They get it. That being a Christian is not taking sides, but a way of life and living that life like our Lord taught us.
    I spent quite a while awake last night thinking about BabyJ’s first post. God has his 10 laws and man has his thousands of laws. Risking ofending anyone I have to say that most of us focus on our Lord on the cross dieing for our sins. Nothing wrong with that at all, but we seem to take for granted the fact that for years before he did that he taught us how to live Godly lives to the fullest.
    The story of those self righteous chest thumping religious men who brought the adultress to him to comdem so they could kill her ccomes to mind here. Caught in the act they wanted justice. So what did our Lord do, knelt down and wrote in the dirt. The self righteous chest thumpers left one by one until no one was left. Jesus said to the woman where are your accusors? They all left she said. He then told her to go he did not condem her either. We tend to focus on the cross but overlook the teacher part of Jesus that describes to us how to be Godly people. I think this lesson applies clearly here.
    Abortion is a sin. But BabyJ and a few others actually get it. Who is to say our sin is any worse? Who is to say God sees our sin as minor and theirs as great? Sin is sin. Why diminish what Jesus did on the cross to compare sin?
    When Roe v Wade was being decided what did we do? In the name of our Lord we bombed abortion clinics, blocked the entry to them in protest and trashed doctors who preformed them. We got arrested and had to be drug off forcefully. Doesn’t sound very loving to me. Then if that were not enough some churches threw women out who had abortions. We also sat on the sidelines and let others resolve the issue while we waited and watched for the outcome. They were decided in favor of man’s laws not God’s law. Is that the type of people our Lord taught us as being Godly?
    We are quick to point out the flaws in others and slow or refuse to look at our own. How refreshing to have a voice suddenly appear on this blog who actually gets it. Thank you BabyJ. Your post made me do some self examination and I determined that I too was lacking on being the kind of Christian that our Lord taught us to be.
    Personally I think we all need to reflect on OUR OWN sins before we judge others. If that doesn’t put you on your knees maybe there is something wrong with the pharisee in you and me.
    And as for Obama, I can’t judge another mans heart or moral character, only God can do that. What I see about the man, to me is not offensive at all. I repeat that he needs prayer as he has much upon his shoulders. I wonder what this world would look like if we all agree on everything.

  47. Mart De Haan says:

    rdrcomp, I think you’ve asked some important questions.

  48. Mart De Haan says:

    I don’t think we should be quiet. Seems like our calling is to have a compassionate prophetic voice of warning, and a social response that reflects the truth and grace of Christ (like the pregnancy counseling foreverblessed says they are offering in the Netherlands and like so many of our brothers and sisters are involved with here in the States).

  49. foreverblessed says:

    The unborn child is connected to the blood circulation of the mother way beond the 2nd month.
    There is a scripture in the old testament:
    The life is in the blood.
    Just to think about.
    I started thinking about these things when my sister had a spiral inplanted for anti-conception instead of using hormones. The thought of it alone was unbearable to me.
    The idea that human life starts at a later point does not give us any right to take the life away, but it helps us putting things in perspective when thinking of what other people do. In a way it was a comforting thought to me.
    We must look at God’s pespective as rdrcomp just said.

  50. foreverblessed says:

    The unborn child is connected to the blood circulation of the mother way beond the 2nd month.
    There is a scripture in the old testament:
    The life is in the blood.
    Just to think about.
    I started thinking about these things when my sister had a spiral inplanted for anti-conception instead of using hormones. The thought of it alone was unbearable to me.
    The idea that human life starts at a later point does not give us any right to take the life away, but it helps us putting things in perspective when thinking of what other people do. In a way it was a comforting thought to me.
    We must look at God’s pespective as rdrcomp just said. But only apply it to ourselves not forcing other people to adhere to it.

  51. foreverblessed says:

    Sorry, 2 posts. Can I delete it in any way?

  52. Ruth.F says:

    I would really like to recommend reading Francis Schaeffer’s Whatever Happened to the Human Race? Christians should not be passive concerning abortion. I really do believe that this is a black and white issue. The founders of this nation meant for God to be a part of it and for Christians and Christian values to play a role (just browse through the founding documents). Remember that NOTHING is new under the sun. This is not a new reality either and we as Christians should not be passive. Very good call on the topic Mart.

  53. BruceC says:

    “When Roe v Wade was being decided what did we do? In the name of our Lord we bombed abortion clinics, blocked the entry to them in protest and trashed doctors who preformed them. We got arrested and had to be drug off forcefully.”

    When WAS being decided? These happened AFTER R v W; not while it was being decided. Also I think it a mistake to label all those against abortion as being hateful. I do not agree with bombing or killing those we disagree with. If someone protests and is dragged off then that is between they and God. The TenBoom family was dragged off to a concentration camp for hiding Jews as a way of protesting against what was happening.
    Also Paul; who considered himself chief among sinners spoke out against sin. So what is wrong with we who are not perfect; nor will be in this life, pointing out a national sin? When you tell someone of their need for Christ and salvation because of their sin, do you have to be sinless first? I do not hate those who have abortions or provide them; I hate what they do to the defenseless. So I guess according to some here I should just keep my mouth shut and not tell someone they are a sinner in need of Christ until I have my own backyard COMPLETELY clean first? If we do it in a respectable, loving manner; what is wrong with that? If we warn them of the consequences; what is wrong with that? Can we not focus on serving our Lord, doing good works in his name, be sure we are setting the proper example for Him, helping our church to shine, trying to make sure we ourselves are as holy as we can be; and still have time to speak out? Some here have given me the impression that others should remain quiet until they are without sin.

    I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for the opportunity that this blog has given all of us to share God’s love for us and to discuss things openly and without fear. I will pray for all my brithers and sisters here that God will richly bless their lives. God Bless all of you!

    In Parting,
    Soli Deo Gloria!

  54. gr8grannyjacobs says:

    Everyone probably remembers I Love Lucy so will share a story about that show. The bedroom caused a big moral issue thus it was resolved by giving them twin beds. It placated the moralist and was a door in to more vivid bedroom scenes for our future. Now sexual sin is blatant in our society and accepted as the norm.

    Sin any sin when let in grows. We don’t have to condemn anyone to stand for the truth as Jesus came to save not to condemn.

    However if we say sin is not sin and there is no definite right or wrong are we being truthful? We have to decide who we are following and though I may get confused there is no confusion in God.

    The woman brought to Jesus had sinned and Jesus told her to sin no more. It was the heart attitude of the people toward the woman that Jesus was against. They had no compassion or forgiveness in their hearts.

    SFDBWV Steve, Keep standing

  55. Mart De Haan says:

    BruceC, thanks for asking for clarification on my comment “that civil debate has given way to a culture war that is as self-defeating as abortion is morally wrong.”

    I’m expressing my opinion that the way the current culture war is being fought, it is doing more harm than good to the reputation of Christ.

    Imagine if we could be known by a Christ-like example, by our social compassion, by our concern for those who have no friend or advocate, and by a Christ-centered faith rooted in reason and truth spoken with grace.

    Or for example, what if we could be known as people who have strong spiritual convictions about abortion, while regarding the political process as a means by which we seek reasonable compromises with those who don’t share our religious or moral points of view? Wouldn’t it be the better part of wisdom to give up some rather than losing the whole?

    I’m not advocating compromise in our own personal lives and faith… but am recommending compromise with our neighbors that is a bit like “giving unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to him.

  56. mtman says:

    BruceC: I did not say that those who are against abortion are hateful. When Roe v Wade was being decided Christians did not react, they sat on the side lines and let others take the forefront. You are right that after that is when the damage occured. If you recall however some states allowed abortion and that brought R v W to the forefront. There was trouble long before R v W.
    Also I did not say to be silent. What I hoped to say is that we need to conduct ourselves like Christians just as the Lord taught us. I speak out all the time. I don’t need to capture the headlines to speak out. If Jesus were here in flesh today I seriously doubt he would be pulled off a site in handcuffs. The lesson to be learned from in my opinion is that if Jesus could not condem the adultress who are we to do so with abortionists. I don’t like it and recognize it for sin but far be it from me to condem because I’m a sinner too. If Christians aren’t the social conscience who will be. Shouldn’t non believers be drawn to us because of our love and not because we stand of a single hot topic issue? Why aren’t we as morally outspoken about priests that sodomize young boys? About all the other ills/sins that go on? What have we as Christians done for the homeless, disenfranchised, lost and elderly? Not enough. By the time we get out of the starting blocks the Gov’t has already stepped in. Orphans? It is easier to get a drivers license in this country than to adopt a baby. If we really wanted to do something we would facilitate some of these unwanted babies being adopted. Instead we are polarized over a single sin and neglect a solution. Sometimes we Christians don’t set much of an example or the example we set is not one that would reflect well. How can parties that disagree so stongly come together when they are so rigid? I hope that is what I conveyed. I dislike abortion too, but there are so many other sins that I equally dislike. Silent no, but I think its time we started to act more like the loving people we are called to be. If we aren’t a good Christian example who will non believers have to compare us with. Our demonstrations in the Lords name is not one bit different than the protestors across the street who have a different view.

  57. SFDBWV says:

    Bruce C, I love you brother, I think you have spoken very well.

    John the Baptist prepared the way for the Christ by proclaiming the baptisim of repentance for the remission of sins.

    Was John pointing fingers and making judgements as one being in err of doing so? No John pointed out the wrong doing of his brothers and proclaimed that there was one coming who will baptize with fire.

    There have been abortions as long as there have been pregnant women who do not want a child. That has not changed in our history as human beings.

    What has changed is that our leaders have sanctioned and authorized abortion, instead of prtecting the unborn by laws. Our leaders have judged in favor of death over life for the unborn child.

    Will unwanted pregnancies stop if abortion were illegal? No.
    Will abortions stop if made illegal? No.

    Our society has made it easy to not get pregnant while committing fornication. Our government has made it legal to kill the unwanted child should contraception fail.

    If we lived under a king, and had no voice in our leadership. We could be innocent by way of not having a hand in the legalization of murder.

    But we elect our leaders, so we do have a voice in how our government behaves.

    I cannot support a President, or any other political office holder, who supports abortion.

    I will speak out against their sins, just as John the Baptist did to King Herod. I will proclaim also that there is one who can forgive their sins if they repent.

    It is up to them to repent, if they do not, then should I wash my hands of the matter as did Pilate? Or should I continue to be a voice in the wilderness proclaiming the Christ?

    I choose the Christ, and will not be a party to accepting my nations idolatry.


  58. soulsister says:

    Thank you Matt for such a well thought out article, and to so many of the others that are trying to be “Christ-minded” regarding the issue of abortion. I too believe that abortion is wrong, but the way we as Christians are behaving toward the issue, and those that are contemplating, or have had an abortion does not show the love of Christ. I too agree that this is a “pet” sin for so many, but we wink at other sin and moral issues, such as racism, the plight of the poor, lack of health care for all, and a long laundry list of others. WE say it is a bigger sin than this or that, but to God ALL sin is sin, tax evasion, adultery, pornography, and even the “little” sins we don’t want found out that we do. We need to stop looking and comparing ourselves with each other and get into the Mirror of the Word of God to see our own logs in our eyes.

    While we sit comfortably in our Churches, with our finest clothes, fancy cars, big bank accounts, going to our fancy houses, and looking down on others less fortunate, are we also speaking out against other moral issues? No, we as Christians, even Evangelical, conservatives have the perspective that if it doesn’t affect me and my family directly, who care’s. It’s too bad that “those” people are in the situations they are in, but it’s not my problem.

    You are right we are polarized on certain issues, but have nothing to say on others, and when we do say something we sound as hate-filled as non-Christians. If we are so concerned about abortion and the children of this country, are we volunteering at the Crisis Nursery centers? Becoming foster parents? Mentoring young women? Are we reaching out to the lost by inviting “those” people to our Churches on Sunday’s, or just those people like us? Probably not. We are more concerned about being right then we are about making relationships with people so that we have an venue to share the Gospel.

    As Christ followers we are to be salt and light, going OUT into the highways and bi-ways of life to reach the lost, then and only then will their hearts be changed, and abortion not be desired or needed. We want to blame all the world’s problems on Obama, the left, the bleeding hearts, the ACLU, blah, blah, blah.

    Granted we need to make the laws, then work to change the hearts of people and lead them to Christ to work live within the laws. But we also should stop finding fault with everyone else and become the change OURSELVES that we need in this country? If we think that our actions over this issue are drawing people to Christ, think again. Yes, we have the answer, Yes, we have the Word, but if we are so angry and unapproachable how will they hear it?

    We should remember that even though we say we care about the unborn, and even the females that seek abortion, they won’t care how much we know, until they know how much we care.

    And, last but not least, (this bears repeating) Jesus was not Republican nor Democrat, he came to abolish all of that, so let’s get off our high horses and stop thinking that the GOP has all the answers, will do everything right for all people, and bring us into the realm of God that we say America used to be in. Our Government officials are people like everyone else, subject to sin, temptation and mistakes. We are to pray for our leaders, all of them, whether we vote for them or not, but in the end it is God who is Sovreign over everything.

    Let’s be careful that we as the Saints of God don’t get blinded and self righteous by the sins of others that we no longer see our own sins. It is dangerous to believe that we don’t commit as big a sins as “those” people. None of us are above sin, we just have different points of temptation and weakness. “Pride goeth before a fall”, and without the Lord’s all consuming love and compassion we end up hurting the cause of Christ, instead of helping others to see Him through us. Let us ere on the side of Love in the future.
    Prayerfully submitted.

  59. soulsister says:

    Amen mtman, Amen!!

  60. daisymarygoldr says:

    “The truth is that the Bible does not directly say when a personhood begins. Again, I believe that one fact gives us reason for caution, and at the same time reason to not say more (i.e. attach authority to more) than the Bible says. We lose nothing by humility on matters we don’t know. We do lose credibility and maybe even our ability to speak in God’s behalf by saying more than we know.”- MDH

    Mart, what has been said here that implicates that we are saying more than we know? Are you advocating the use of the “pill”? What is it that we don’t know? Are you sure the Bible does not directly say when a personhood begins?

  61. daisymarygoldr says:

    soulsister, you are right that we should “ be careful that we as the Saints of God don’t get blinded and self righteous by the sins of others that we no longer see our own sins”.

    There is no such thing as big sin or small sin… sin is a sin. So, even if I committed the sin of abortion…as a saint of God I will be quick to condemn it as sin… i.e. if I loved God and His laws that protect me from the consequences of sin.

  62. gr8grannyjacobs says:

    Jeremiah 9 came to mind as I read the post’s today. I am not going to quote it but the message I gather from it was that their prophets were telling them lies and telling them God didn’t mind their sin and Jeremiah was weeping because the people were being so misled.He kept telling them to turn their hearts back to God and His law’s. We know how the people responded to Jeremiah but he continued and was proven right. Yes we all sin but it is in the repentance and acknowledgement of our sin that we find salvation.Then we see plainly how deception is so easily placed among us.No condemnation intended just weeping for our nation and how misled our people are.

    Seems to me Jeremiah 1:5 makes clear when conception takes place. Just my understanding?

  63. Rick123 says:

    “Is abortion murderer?”

    Psa 22:9 But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother’s breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother’s belly… For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made: marvellous [are] thy works; and [that] my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them. How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

    The word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations”

    When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy”

    God says murder is sin. (Abortion kills the fetus.)

    The Bible does not specifically use the word “abortion,” but it’s clear about “murder.”

    You shall not murder (Exodus 20:13).

  64. poohpity says:

    You know the world out there doesn’t really care what Christians have to say because we have given them reason to believe what hypocrites we are. People see the troubles in our churches and are pushed away rather than brought in. It would be nice if those who believe would portray the love our savior showed and has taught us to show since the beginning of time. Yes I believe we are to hold each other accountable but not unbelievers. Before Jesus died He told the woman at the well go and sin no more. Do you think that He expected her to sin no more, no He knew she would and He knew even after we accept Him we would still sin yet He still went to the cross. If believers would spend the majority of our time doing what we are called to do we may make a huge difference in this horrible world rather than pushing people away from the only hope we have.

  65. daisymarygoldr says:

    Very well said Claudia!

    Gr8grannyjacobs, you are right… about repenting!

    This is not to bite, devour and kill… but just some harmless thinking aloud… I’m thinking that if Christians get offended when sin is condemned those Christians have not crucified themselves completely to be hid in Christ… they are still living to themselves…i.e. in the “old self” and so they take it personally and feel offended.

    As for me, because I am in Christ, I love His righteousness and I hate sin and condemn its presence in me by repenting. If I do not hate sin… why should I even see a need to repent? I do not get offended personally because I am dead to my “self” and if I say I’m alive I’m alive only in Christ… and there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. The privilege of being in Christ is that I don’t have to live under the guilty burden of my sins… I readily recognize the evil in me and repent… to be forgiven…

    If we say we love, our love must be sincere… we should hate/condemn sin. The Pharisees condemned the sinner but Jesus condemned the sin and asked the woman to go and sin no more. Only if we hate evil/sin and love what is good/righteous, then and only then we can claim that our love is without hypocrisy (Rom 12:9). Just my thoughts…

  66. pegramsdell says:

    It is true that as christians we should not get offended. If we are dead to this world and alive only to Christ, then we shouldn’t feel anything except love for this world just like He does. It is sad how many abortions take place everyday. It is also sad how many other sins are done everyday…..(by me)…
    I pray for mothers who are faced with this choice. It is soooo scary. I also pray for comfort and peace to saturate those that have made that choice to abort.
    God forgives us, we should forgive ourselves.

  67. wretch-like-me says:

    I think we(christian and non-)get lost in the preconceived generalizations before we consider the options we truly have.

    Quite some time ago, I learned that when arguments begin labelling people into “US vs THEM” we DE-humanize the other side. We forget that they are people with all the same human cares, likes, dislikes, desires for happiness, security, success, comfort, relationships, family, kids, grandkids…we are all alike, basically.

    When we forget that, it is easy to belittle or find reasons to go further than just disagree. Hitler is a good example of someone who used the same strategy to gain control of a whole nation using fear and the “US vs THEM” strategy. Beware even the tendency to do so.

    Our Lord, Jesus, taught that ‘our neighbor’ was anyone who needed help and to realize ‘who needed help’ simply required one to open their eyes and ears…”Let him who has eyes see…who has ears hear.” (His way of saying ‘Open you eyes; Open your ears!)

    Remember, things done for the benefit of the least of these(His lost lambs)were considered as though they were done to/for HIM. (ever ponder the reverse? things withheld… demeaning words… condemning statements given not to help but the reverse…Could they too, be as though they were done to HIM?)

    I am reminded of the disciple who referred to himself as the one Jesus loved. Is there any wonder in why he chose so often in the books 1st, 2nd, 3rd John to call us ‘children’? For all our knowledge, we somehow lack maturity… God-Sight.

    Does our speech/rhetoric reflect the ‘love of Christ’? How can we hope to gain an unbeliever’s ear, if we assault them with words?

    When I was learning to drive a car, I had an instructor who warned me of relying solely on being within my rights and not ‘forgiving’ the other guys mistakes. He was trying to teach me ‘defensive driving’. He told me that being right was not as important as being ALIVE!

    Are we content with being RIGHT at the risk of losing the ear of the unsaved? Make no mistake. Compromise of God’s Character is Sin! However, God’s Character embodies compassion, understanding, patience and forgiveness.

    Are we not familiar with the parable of the prodigal? God in the figure of the compassionate father humbles himself by restoring a son who:
    has ‘wished him dead’; squandered his inheritance; disgraced his name.
    The father ‘runs to greet him’, slaughters the prized calf, dresses him in his finest robes, placing a signet ring on his hand and (in the eyes of his ‘faithful/righteous son’ who stayed home) makes a humiliating spectacle of welcoming back the wrong son.

    Which child am I?


  68. daisymarygoldr says:

    pegramsdell, this is not to get the last the last word… but with all due respect and lots of love… Whom should we love? Are we called to love the World or our own brothers and sisters in Christ?

    See how very much our Father loves us, for He calls us his children, and that is what we are! But the people who belong to this world don’t recognize that we are God’s children because they don’t know him. 1 John 3: 1

    “Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God”. James 4:4

    pegramsdell, Do not love this world nor the things it offers you, for when you love the world, you do not have the love of the Father in you. 1 John 2: 15
    “…Anyone who does not… love other believers (our own brothers and sisters in Christ) does not belong to God” 1 John 3: 9

  69. daisymarygoldr says:

    Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God.

    Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.

    Dear child (ren) Frank, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people “do what is right”, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous.

    But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning.

    Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God.

    So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil.

    Anyone who does not live righteously (“do what is right”) … does not belong to God. 1 John 3: 4-10

    Frank, as children of God’s family should we not be doing what is right? With lots of hugs…

  70. pegramsdell says:

    Of course I didn’t mean the world system. I meant the people, not just our brothers and sisters in Christ.
    Love the Lord first, then our neighbors. Sorry if that wasn’t clear :)

  71. Rick123 says:

    And I said, Hear, I pray you, O heads of Jacob, and ye princes of the house of Israel; [Is it] not for you to know judgment? …I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he [is] thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

  72. bubbles says:

    I wonder what our founding fathers would think of the nation they began?  So many of these men were believers who feared God.  History tells us that even those men who did not profess respected His Word. . .I fear for this nation. . . individuals who vote according to their pocketbooks/bank accounts and not for those who stand for what is right.  I’ve had it up to my eyeballs with ‘political correctness’.  And, yes, the truth is sharper than a two-edged sword. The truth spoken in love can hurt–but the ‘hurt’ and the offense is their heart telling them they are sinning and doing wrong. Perhaps Christians don’t pray as earnestly for their leaders when someone is in office(s) who stand for what is right.  Maybe the Lord has allowed this one in office to shake us up. . .so we will seek His face and draw closer to Him.I love reading Daniel’s prayer for Israel in Daniel 9:3-19.  He poured out his heart to God, confessing the sins of his people and asking for forgiveness. On a side note:  Someone blogged yesterday about women leaving church sobbing during Mother’s Day services. . .please be careful not to judge these ladies.  What if their own mother is dead?  What if they have tragically lost a child?  We never really know others and their situations.-Just a thought to throw out there.

  73. BabyJ says:

    I am not saying be politically correct. I am not saying kiss peoples behinds or condone their sin. I have found in my short life that the meat of getting someone to understand your point is in how you approach them. Growing up, when people came to me preaching, or talking about how I sinned, it was a major turn-off. In all honesty that was one of the reasons why I left the church in college. However the people that had the most effect on me have been transparent and have spoken to me calmly. They still disagreed with my sin, they still told me I was wrong, but it was how the message was delivered.

    It’s not about right or wrong…. we all are wrong in the first place.

    I don’t know kinda feel like this is becoming more of an argument than a discussion. I should get up and go work out or something.

  74. tandgmartin says:


    Thanks for finally putting the proper order to things. I’ve long proposed the principle that abortion, indeed a horrible sin, comes about as a result of earlier sin, namely sexual immorality.


  75. bubbles says:


    Oh dear, I surely wasn’t responding to what you blogged.

    I was just speaking about the ‘liberal thinking’ that permeates our country.

    I was in no way trying to argue with anyone here.

    This gross sin that our nation permits makes me angry. Nothing you said. I’m so very sorry.

  76. saled says:

    My Grammie was town clerk when I first registered to vote, and there was never any question about which form, Democrat or Republian, we would be filling out, every grandchild was automaticly handed over to the grand old party. Life seemed great under Ronald Regan and the first George Bush. In those days, I listened to christian radio, and the talk shows were always supportive of our government.

    I’ll never forget my shock in the aftermath of waco when the tone of the christian talk shows suddenly found room to question the government. It was then that I realized I was what is now known as a ditto head. I found my identity not in Christ, but in being a ditto head.

    The culture wars are self defeating, but they seem to fill a need for many christians. My observation is that the fight often gives energy to the very thing we are fighting against. I’ve seen it in book banning, pornography, even Halloween.

    My Grammie often talked about how grateful she was for the public programs that Franklin Roosevelt instituted, how they gave my Grandpa a job during the depression. I grew up thinking he was republican. Well, I voted for President Obama. He just seems so much more in touch with the pain in the world than our grand old party.

  77. wretch-like-me says:

    I am not so perfect as yet to be without sin… no sooner than I get up from my knees, it seems I need to return there.
    I struggle with humility… an over-compensation for the low self-image I have of myself… I learned quite early in life that I could bluff my way into ‘looking’ confident… boldness to hide insecurity… brashness to hide self conciousness… sexual escapades to hide the need to be affirmed as desireable and competent, if not exemplary in sexual ability. I grew up in the ‘James Bond’ era of masculinity.

    My point is: None of us can say we are without sin. Those who do are liars. We all need Christ. But, the Christ I found was not condemning. On the contrary, He was forgiving and loving in ways that I had never experienced. I try to emulate that now in ways I never could have before.

    People who support abortion are deceived. They are blinded by the ruler of this world. However, those who have had abortions and those who perform them or support the ‘freedom’ to choose are no worse than me because I am a sinner, too.

    The only difference is I have accepted what they have yet to understand or in the worse case have rejected. I pray for them as my equals before Christ. Their souls are just as precious to HIM as mine.

    I know that pain, doubt, fear and misinformation at a time of emotional stress can cause me to make poor decisions. I dont have to imagine what a person goes thru when faced with that decision. I have faced it and PRAISE GOD made the right decision to choose life.

    That doesnt make me better than those who choose abortion. It grieves me that they have chosen to believe a lie rather than face the truth. The terrible outcome of that choice is far reaching. I know of girls who made the choice when teens and forever after have been haunted by the decision.

    It is easy for me to understand why Jesus wept so deeply for the people of Jerusalem. They were lost and He knew that many would remain so.

    It is in that spirit that I view all non-christians and many christians who continue to struggle with the consequences of their former lives. It is extremely painful to have to live with the ‘harvest’ of sin.

    THANK GOD!!! We who accept Christ as Saviour have the hope of redemption when we are released from this world and its shackles. We will at last be ‘free indeed’.

    Huggs (thanks for your personal response)

  78. gr8grannyjacobs says:

    The comfort I am finding in this conversation is that it reminds me that we are like the disciples They must have sounded like us when they gathered to discuss the things Jesus said that they did not understand. God is good and we are so blessed to know Him. He will give us understanding. Keep praying keep loving and keep sharing the gospel. A smile helps:)

  79. sjd says:

    Seems to me that I agree with you Mart.

    I can continue to voice my personal convictions in a loving way, yet embrace any actions that will help preserve life, even if those ideas are coming from those that do not view life in the same way.

    Finding ways to promote adoption, care for unwed mothers, etc. will lead to less abortions which is exactly what we want and what I believe God wants. We can see life preserved in the midst of this sinful world.

    And as we retain our integrity as believers by showing love to others rather than condemnation, and are realistic and transparent with our own sin, we can share the Gospel!

    I believe that Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

  80. Laurielee says:

    It is my belief that only the One who gives life has the right to take it away.

    Someone who attacks a pregnant woman, causing her to lose the child, can be charged for the crime; however, if a woman decides to terminate the life, it is not a crime.

    What makes the difference? Being wanted and being unwanted?

    Is abortion only a sin if a Christian woman has one?

    Do we water down the Bible’s message to attract more believers? To be more palatable among the changing culture?

    I’ve been seeing more and more in our culture where we change the definitions of sins, making them sins no longer. Did Jesus say “Go and sin no more” or did He tell us to believe in Him and keep doing what we’re doing?

  81. Rick123 says:

    To please God is to be an enemy of the world, and to please the world is to be an enemy of God. What Jesus spoke, brought judgment, for he did not speak on his own behalf, but only what he heard from his Father…And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one(Father) that judgeth him: the word(came from the Father) that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.(Jhn 12:47-50)

    Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    …but he that believeth not is condemned already,(Notice a person under the law(sin) is already condemned because of Adam’s sin, and Jesus came under the law(sin). That is why God sent his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh)

    (The Pharisees fruit was not good but corrupt before God, for they were known by their fruit. They spoke against God’s Spirit and his saving grace. Jesus was not so nice with them, for he called them O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned…Now is Jesus judging the Pharisees for their evil life style?

  82. sjd says:

    Just wanted to clariy something.

    To present the Gospel, is to present the whole story. The fact of sin. The condemnation we all were under and those apart from Christ still are under. Then we can share the Good news of Christ life, death, burial, and resurrection. The fact that in Christ we may receive forgiveness, Life Eternal, Jesus Himself!

    I agree Laurielee. We must not water down the Bible’s message. We must clearly proclaim the Truth. Sin is sin. As daisymarigold reminded us from I John, to continue sinning is just not who we are anymore.

  83. kaliko88 says:

    Once again I’m coming in late, am nearly cross-eyed from reading all of the posts before this one, and having to scroll back several times to make sure I understand the whole. Not even sure this will be read since it’s coming so late. I think I will stick to just a few points and try to make very clear they are strictly from my point of view.

    1. Calling abortion a sin is not enough. Those we are trying to convince do not believe that, so changing their hearts and minds means explaining why we believe it is a sin. Personally, I think revealing some of the more startling truths, the ones that are hidden and obscured, would be enough. It’s the one thing I notice about pro-choice arguments, they don’t tell the whole truth. I think simply discussing the real harms abortion does and showing real concern for those who are considering it would make more progress than simply protesting. I know of too many people who only protest and talk and don’t do anything else. Besides, it’s easier to share truths when you’re not shouting each other down.

    2. I think it is possible to show love to the world without loving it. There are many people I can love and care for, and not like at all, but only with Christ’s help, and only when I try to see them as he sees them. Isn’t that why we who believe truly are amazed by God’s grace, because he loves us even when we know we can be so totally unlikeable? And if He can love like that, who are we to withhold that same love? People are drawn to that love. I thought that was our job as disciples.

    3. “…civil debate has given way to a culture war that is as self-defeating as abortion is morally wrong.” I have seen this before. Sometimes arguments and wars go on so long they become wars for their own sake. The actual issue is buried in name-calling, hurt feelings, revenge, and a single desire to just win. I’m no good at fighting anyway or debates. I’ll stick to just trying to change one heart at a time with good examples and reasonable discussions, remembering that words matter. They can heal or injure.

    I’m not going to say anything about what I think of the tone of some of these comments. I know that despite our many differences on details, we all hold together on the solid core truths. But I’m too heart sore and soul sick, and badly in need of that community of prayer that I know is here, to make much sense. Being a good example and discussing reasonably didn’t work this time, and my marriage is ending in divorce. I’m a believer, he isn’t. I was outnumbered by far too many bad examples. So pray, please, and never forget what we all have, one solid truth, a common ground that binds us all, and that not all can find because they are lost. Don’t let the differences divide, but instead direct towards the common ground.

  84. daisymarygoldr says:

    Good questions Laurilee! …and you were greatly missed.

    Frank, you are absolutely right… “None of us can say we are without sin…Christ … was not condemning…” Christ did condemn… the scribes and the Pharisees who had knowledge of the truth yet never walked in the truth.

    To the rest of the group: I just wanted to clarify that my comments are not addressed towards dealing with the sin of abortion in the civil sense… i.e. abortion in society…. But I do agree with what the others have said about the need to enforce laws to protect life.

    As a follower of Christ, I am talking about the issue of abortion deep-seated in the unrepentant sin of sexual immorality present within the Church. If you believe that “to love” means to tolerate sin and not condemn its presence in your local church… then so be it! I am not here to condemn anyone…

    As for me and my house and the church back home, we have a completely different perspective of love. It is because we love, we preach the Gospel… so people will repent and be saved from their sins. It is because we love we do not tolerate but condemn sin. It is love that exhorts people to repent from sins. It is love that teaches others to avoid sin and its painful consequences. It is love that longs for God and His righteousness to be honored in the lives of the members of His body.

    BTW, my own cousin aborted her baby because her husband felt they were not financially prepared… of course we were appalled… my parents did what they could to convince them that it was a sin… today they are still family… there is no condemnation but only love… yet our stance on abortion remains the same.

    “When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out (condemn) to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do warn the wicked man to turn from his ways and he does not do so, he will die for his sin, but you will have saved yourself”. Ezekiel 33:8

  85. daisymarygoldr says:

    kaliko88, you are in my prayers…

  86. foreverblessed says:

    kaliko88, you are in my prayers too.
    Our common ground is Jesus. And we need His Comfort. You especially now in this terrible ordeal. How much do we need His comfort, His Warm Heart of Love.
    May He give to you much more during this period.

  87. Mart De Haan says:

    We have a 32 pg booklet called “When the Pain Won’t go Away” for women who are struggling with the aftereffects of an abortion. You can find it at this link:

  88. foreverblessed says:

    We can force no one to drink, but we can exort each other to draw from the Well of our Salvation: Jesus.
    Go to Christ this morning, He is the source of mercy, kindness,goodness. If we have not enough of these go to Him and ask for more. And do not be afraid that when you are full of mercy you will water down sin.
    Look to Jesus.

  89. bretnb says:

    MTMAN The State legislators 3 times had a chance to vote on law protecting babies that were suppose to be aborted while being born but lived. Partial birth abortion.

    Three times Obama voted against the law. He was told by a nurse in a fact finding session were she had seen babies that the abortion went wrong and the baby lived. The child was placed in a bucket and placed in a mop closet to die. That did not effect this “Christian” heart he still voted to allow these children to die.

  90. pegramsdell says:

    kaliko88,you will be in my prayers. I’ve been through the same thing. 6 years ago. Hang in there, God is good. And He will be with you through the whole process. Also, He can change hearts. When you’ve done all you can, just stand.
    And thanks for #2 on your post. You get it.

  91. mtman says:

    As has been articulated throughout this topic, sin is sin. Abortion is no more or any less sin than the multitude of other sins. We are all sinners and to point a finger at abortion as a major sin is not what we are called to do as Christians. It is a sin but not the ultimate sin.
    What I find missing here is mention of the Holy Spirit. Doesn’t that Spirit convict us of our sin from within our heart? Does it matter what specific sin it is? I think not. Does it tell us to convict others of sin so we don’t have to confront our own? I think not. To point fingers at others sin seems to me to relieve the Holy Spirit of a terrible responsibility.
    Having said that I need to state that we are to confront sin where we find it, whether in ourselves or others. I believe that when we remain silent in the face of sin we are condoning it or watering it down as some have alluded to. To say nothing or try to compromise is not being faithful as Christians. Why then do we get so sensitive over abortion for instance and not over rape, child molestation, animal abuse, stealing, cheating, adultery, self indulgence and the host of other sins that equally effect us? Could it be because the media plays and plots us against each other?
    We used to watch Fox news because we though it was fair and balanced. We discovered it went as far in one direction as the network channels went in the other. When we stopped watching those channels we discovered we were not influenced by what they thought and were free to consider the issues on their merit. So just how influenced are we all by the talking heads regardless of whether they claim to be Christian or not?
    One more thing on President Obama. I have watched carefully what he has done and said and I simply have not found him wanting in any respect. However on some news channels he is vilified. That carries over to ugly e-mails I get from professed Christians. So my question is do we look objectively at matters or are we so weak that we rely on bias news sources to think for us? As Christians do we let media influence how we think more than we do the bible? From some of the posts on this blog it appears to me that we do. Can anyone please tell me that I am wrong here? My impression is that news channels are as addictive as drugs, tobacco, sexual perversion and many other things. Shouldn’t we as Christians be above that?

  92. SFDBWV says:

    Our government sets speed limts on the highways of our nation. People continue to speed. The result of speeding is the death and maiming of thousands.

    If I take the attitude of compromise with this one simple law, designed to protect life and property, and agree that we should be able to speed where ever we want. The result would be disasterous.

    Our elected officials are charged with the responsibility of protecting the public.

    If elected officials will not protect the unborn children of our nation, what is the purpose of having any government at all. Why don’t we all just do what is right in our own eyes. That way be judged by none.

    Is a man a Christian just because he say’s so? I can not look into the hearts of others, as God can. But I can see the actions others take and can discern in my own heart.

  93. mtman says:

    I think most are in agreement that abortion is wrong/sin. What I don’t see posted is that it was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court 30+ years ago. That regretfully makes it legal. Our current elected officials are sworn to uphold the law. I don’t believe we can hold current officials accountable for what happened so many years ago. I don’t see that they have any choice on the matter. This law will have to be reversed by the Supreme Court. That has been tried and failed. Elected officials personal views on the subject have no weight in the matter at all. It is the law of the land and they have no choice but to uphold the law.

    To suggest anarchy is not the answer. That would throw away the Constitution of the United States. This is not only a sin but extremely frustrating. I’m not sure anyone really has the answer. Which in turn makes it even more frustrating to Christians. Add to that the polarized sides and you have something that no one can or wants to deal with.

  94. mtman says:

    bretnb: I’m sure you are correct but I would like to check that out for myself. Several legislators have voted against good bills simply for the fact that they have ear marks attached that they can not live with. I don’t know if that is the case or not but somehow I can’t see someone who loves his daughters as much as President Obama voting that way without good reason. Truth be known our whole political system is dysfunctional.
    The statement that Pres. Obama boycotted the Nat’l Day of Prayer was not correct at all. I personally checked that out and it was distorted and misleading. I think he should be given the benefit of doubt until all the facts can be obtained and verified. Could you provide your source?

  95. chfranke says:

    I know I’m being idealistic, but if Christians were to simply stand up for EVERY life being a gift from our Creator, no matter what the circumstances, wouldn’t that be a better stance to take than protesting? EVERY life is precious. If we could help every man and woman see that, wouldn’t we be more positive and productive. Some of our most notable ancestors were born out of wedlock. In fact, wasn’t Christ himself essencially born out of wedlock? When a woman becomes pregnant, we don’t know who that child may grow up to be, even if that person was created as the result of rape or incest. Life is so precious and it can easily be ruined by a thoughtless act or words. If only we could adopt this approach the thought of abortion would not even enter our minds.

  96. foreverblessed says:

    I agree with mtman that some of the things stated here are not true, for instance it is said that in the Netherlands abortion is allowed on gender. So if it’s a boy and the couple wants a girl they are allowed to abort it. These things might happen, but they are not allowed.
    It is because some of us christians look at the bad too much of our time. Just check yourself, how much today did you think about bad things going on in the world. And how much of it did you look to Jesus?
    Desire His goodness, His mercy, all of Gods attributes that are ours through our faith in Jesus?

  97. SFDBWV says:

    mtman, it is apparent that you will continue to appoligise for Obama no matter what is said concerning him. So no ground will be gained in that area.

    If we believe the Bible to be acurate, then we believe that the history of mankind is around 6000 years old. The moral laws God gave man 6000 years ago are still relevant today. We are still held accountable for following them today, all of us.

    A mistake made by the US Supreme Court has placed Americans in the posiion of obeying God or the opinion of the Court. An opinion that was not made by any elected official nor rattified and made into law by the constitutional process through the legislative branch of government.

    Many presidents have came out in support of the right to life issues. Obama has came out in support of abortion. Publicly and by action of his first 100 days in office.

    Given a choice to follow the law of the land or follow the law of God. I will follow God.

    The story can be found in the Book of Daniel. where men were placed in the position of obeying the law of man or obeying God…..I choose to obey God. If that places me in the firey furnace of public opinion, then so be it.

  98. laney says:

    Kaliko 88,
    I’am so sorry about your marriage.I will keep you and your husband in prayer.I know you are both hurting right now.
    Keep standing on the promises of God.He heals the broken hearted and binds up their wounds.Cast all your cares upon him because he cares for you.When you pass through the waters He will be with you.Fear not He is with you.He will strengthen you,He will help you and he will uphold you with His righteuos right hand

  99. mtman says:

    Steve: I do not apologize for any man and that includes Obama. What I do however is allow for the fact that there is more to the story than may at first be apparent. Some of the allegations against Pres. Obama I have personally checked out and found the were not truthful. What I do stand for is giving every man the benefit of the doubt until it is shown conclusively they are wrong. I gave George W. Bush the same benefit of the doubt and when I saw him destroy the rules regarding the environment and sit still while our economy was going south, flounder on the war in Iraq, I then saw he was not good for our country. I think everyone should be given the benefit of the doubt until their actions prove differently.
    Maybe what Bretnt says is absolutely true. However does that mean that Obama still feels the same way today. Can he change his mind? I don’t think we should judge anyone unless we have all the facts available and I don’t have them. Until I get to that point I will not apologize but I will give him the benefit of the doubt. I hope that clears up my opinion on Obama. I think everyone should do the same but am realistic enough to know for various reasons some will despise him for their own reasons. Isn’t that what any good Christian should do? Maybe you have more facts than I do and your opinion is justified. Until I get those facts however, I will give him the benefit of any doubt.
    Neither you nor I can go back and change history. It is what it is. I can give you another example. The one where the Supreme Court ruled liberally on the Miami case of eminent domain. Our legislators all railed over the fact the Court was making law not ruling on it. They were going to propose legislation to correct the Supreme Court’s bad decision. Have you seen that introduced yet? I haven’t and I have seen no effort to do so.
    The mistake on abortion was made long ago and it is true that our legislators have done nothing productive in that area. That should not surprise any of us given the state of our government.

  100. laney says:

    I’am the one who mentioned about abortion in the Netherlands.It was from an article I read.I guess we should check out more than one source for our information.Thanks for letting us know the truth.

  101. mtman says:

    Steve: What I meant to say was I apologize for no OTHER man.
    Kaliko88: I will pray for you too.

  102. Mart De Haan says:

    I so often go back to the words of the Apostle Paul, who wrote to people living under a pagan system of government and culture, “Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity (evil)”

    Granted, we are to render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and that involves good citizenship. And I realize I might be wrong, but all too often I get the sense that our Americanism has trumped the principles of the kingdom of Christ with the result that we end up (maybe unintentionally) using the dirty tricks of misinformation to support our political partisanship.

    Yes, I know that can be said of both sides. But shouldn’t that admission tell us something about the kind of battle we have become entangled in?

  103. Rick123 says:

    The way of a fool [is] right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel [is] wise. There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death. Every way of a man [is] right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

    These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

    Better [is] the end of a thing than the beginning thereof: [and] the patient in spirit [is] better than the proud in spirit. Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools. Wisdom [is] good with an inheritance: and [by it there is] profit to them that see the sun. For wisdom [is] a defence, [and] money [is] a defence: but the excellency of knowledge [is, that] wisdom giveth life to them that have it. Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself? Be not over much wicked, neither be thou foolish: why shouldest thou die before thy time? [It is] good that thou shouldest take hold of this; yea, also from this withdraw not thine hand: for he that feareth God shall come forth of them all.

    Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

  104. mtman says:

    Mart: Is what you are saying that man can not serve two masters? I would suggest that we serve God and that we peacefully exist in man’s world. I would never bow down to our gov’t but to my God, I would not have any hesitation. In fact I spend a lot of my time on my knees talking to Him.

    I think you have two subjects here and they need to be separate not lumped together. Men do distort and manipulate things to make their point. I would suggest that needs to be dealt with on an individual level and that one side or the other not be grouped together. Isn’t a half truth the same as a lie? Isn’t that something the person needs to deal with – between them and God? That is why I have learned in my many years to check and verify.

    Here is something I copied many down years ago:
    “Don’t you think you should hear the other side? It just might be possible that you heard the wrong report! If you listened to only one version you may not have heard the whole story, the whole truth. If you consider all the facts impartially you might be tempted to take the other side. The trouble is, it requires less effort to be hasty than correct; and it is easier to take sides, right or wrong, where sympathies lie. But one truth is crystal clear; judgments should never be formed on either half facts or personal preferences”.

    This has served me very well over the years and I do not see where it violates any of my Christian belief. It is what I have written in my earlier posts and I firmly believe this is what we as Christians should do.

  105. Laurielee says:

    Praying for you, kaliko!

    Thanks for missing me, daisy…I’ve been so bombarded with news, pro-thoughts from one side and con-thoughts from the other side, that I thought I’d just listen to G-d for awhile.

    One thing I’ve come to know for sure; I want to know Truth; G-d’s truth. I may feel that I know what’s right and may have a strong stance…but what good does it do if it’s not inline with His thoughts on the matter?

    His ways are so much higher than my ways; His thoughts so much higher than my thoughts.

    Is it possible to condemn the sin as a whole, but deal with hearts individually?

    For example, if a woman we knew was suffering in spirit because she’d had an abortion, would we condemn her? No, I think we’d try to lead her to Jesus who loves her despite her sins…just as we’d want Him to do for us.

    Does that mean that we think abortion is not a sin and would not take that stance? I don’t think so.

    I’ve heard a minister recently say that all the passages in the Bible that talk about correcting or descerning behavior are only talking about our own behavior. To point out another’s behavior falls into “judging”.

    What about our children? Yes, we do our best to raise them in the way they should go, but aren’t we to correct them when they are disobedient? Though I believe that one who is wise will do it in the right way…with love, as our Father corrects us.

    BTW, Daisy, thank you for the Scripture from Ezekiel.

  106. Laurielee says:

    Steve, regarding your 8:28 post; ditto.

    If it comes to a choice between mans’ laws and G-d’s laws, we must stand with G-d. Our Christian walk is to be 24/7…not just lived in private or within the church building’s walls.

  107. poohpity says:

    I am so confused where does it say our job is to convict the world of sin?

    What is the difference in abortion and not feeding someone who is hungry? What is the difference in turning a blind eye to those who are born who have no family and no home. How about walking past an elderly person who is struggling with getting their groceries out of the car. How about those who do not read their bible everyday and spend the first part of their day with God. Please do not tell me there are people like that what a sinful group.

    I did not realize Pastor Obama oops I mean President Obama can make us do anything that is against what we believe, I did not know he had that much power. I did not know we had that much power to convict others of sin. I must have been living under a Rock all this time, oops I have been.

  108. Laurielee says:

    Pooh, I hope you didn’t take offense at anything I said. I was only stating my thoughts, not directing them at anyone except for those to Daisy.

    No, from what I understand, no one sin is greater than any other; we’re ALL guilty.

    It is repeated again and again in Proverbs that a wise man will accept correction but a fool does not. I strive to be the wise man…

  109. Mart De Haan says:

    I think you’re right. The issue of abortion policy needs to be broken down into its parts. I tried doing that a bit ago, but realized after posting it that I was confusing the parts/categories :-)… Deleted it, and will try again… By the way I wish I could give all of you a chance to edit or delete things you want to say differently… but the blog software wouldn’t allow that unless we gave everyone “administrative privileges” and I think that might be a nightmare :-)…

  110. laney says:

    I will miss reading all your posts. I have to send out the computer for repairs.I only have had the computer for 5 mos and it needs to be repaired already.I will catch up with everyone in a couple of weeks.God bless everyone.

  111. mtman says:

    Mart: I think I can answer all your questions: If I understand your question correctly it asks if I think the issue should be broken down into parts. Not where I stand on abortion because I have previously posted my thoughts on that matter.
    I think when you have what appears to be an insurmountable problem like abortion that it needs to be dealt with in parts.

    So yes it can be broken down into many parts and maybe the more the better. If we can resolve them in baby steps at least we are walking toward resolution.

    My prior posts should show where I come down on the issue and also where most Christians can agree:

    That abortion is a sin.

    That is is clear where the two sides stand on abortion. They are so polarized that neither can see beyond the issue itself. I’m not sure that is a separate part that needs looking into…

  112. mtman says:

    Mart: …I wish you good luck on getting it broken down into parts because that is going to take the wisdom of Solomon.

    Maybe if all those who post here could contribute a part it would help you.

    This is a problem that has gone on ‘as is’ for 30+ years now. It hasn’t really changed in any significant way in that time period. (with the exception so many beautiful babies have died) Hopefully you can draw on the wisdom others express here to help you.

  113. poohpity says:


    You did not offend me in anyway. It is very hard to offend me. I believe that opinions are like noses everyone has one and enjoy seeing all sides to any discussion. What I have trouble with is folks who think of themselves more highly than they ought. This is not directed at any one person. I have suffered under those that think they are without sin and are very judgmental, it has driven me away from the church not from God.

    As I have said before my history before Christ was of 21 years of drug and alcohol abuse and everything that goes with it. What I was would curl your hair. That is the only way that I have understood who I am compared to Christ. I have been forgiven so much and therefore am unable to pay attention to the sin of another because it takes me so much time looking in the mirror at my own behavior and doing what the Lord has given me to do I have no time to look at anyone else.

    I truly love this blog and all the folks on it. This blog challenges me to think and I am so blessed by all even those that I may not see eye to eye with. I have had surgery after surgery so far this year and with my mom’s terminal cancer and all that goes with it, I have been unable to walk well enough to get to church so I am truly blessed by this community. I have even gotten to know some off of this site which their friendship has shown me the love of Christ. Steve and his family and gr8granny have become my friend offline not to forget Helmet. I love you guys!!

  114. nocomprimise says:

    Mart, It’s a wonderful idea-why can’t we all just get along-but as Christians, the salt and light of the earth, I don’t see a lot of wiggle room when it comes to abortion. What fellowship does light have with darkness? Sweet water with bitter, life with death? Yes, people are allowed by law to make their own decision, but in the pool of opinion that comprises democracy, our vote must count for righteousness must count before God. Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever.

  115. mtman says:

    MART: Ha, I think you actually posted those breakdowns before they got deleted. I read them and then answered them before your delete took effect. I am so happy to see that happens to others also and not just me.
    That is why I responded specifically to the numbers which will probably confuse others who did not get to review them.
    I still think there is an abundance of Christian wisdom here on this site and if you can channel it I think you would have all the help needed getting abortion broken down into parts. You could then assemble and edit it as needed. Lets face it if you could do something like this yourself you would be so brilliant none of us would even dare talk to you. You know that is said in jest…

  116. Laurielee says:

    Pooh, You are a truly beautiful person in Christ and I don’t think there’s anything you could say about your past that would curl my hair. Maybe pasts are also like noses and we all have them!

    I came from a very bad place and count myself among the lowest of the low…maybe that is one of the reasons I love Christ so much…because He has forgiven me much! I kinda picture myself as the sinful woman who washed Jesus’ feet with her tears and dried them with her hair.

    My comments maybe are my understanding of where I SHOULD be, knowing all the while that I can’t live up to them. Many times the picture of what we WANT to be is in conflict with what we really are; we can not attain this goal with human effort.

    As Paul said, “Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me…Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which G-d has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.”

    You are loved, Pooh!

  117. Mart De Haan says:

    mtman, sorry I posted and then deleted while you were responding. I’ll go back and remove whatever you wrote that could be confusing.

    I’ll try it again, not to show that I have it all figured out, but to try and reflect the real questions that we are all responding to in one way or another: i.e.

    In response to your (mtman)earlier suggestion, seems to me that the issue breaks down into something like:

    1. What we believe about abortion: Do we believe it is always wrong, usually wrong, or, like war, sometimes a necessary option (as in cases of rape, incest, or life-threatening risk to mother)?

    2. What do we believe is the best way of responding to the wrong: Would we focus only on being examples of what we believe, try to compassionately persuade others, or actively work in behalf of public policy that would criminalize abortion?

    3. If we believe justice requires laws against some or all abortions, how we would work for public policy that is consistent with our beliefs: Would we would make a bi-partisan appeal, or would we be willing to identify with the party that best reflects our position on abortion, even though the other party may be more consistent with other issues of social justice?

    4. Who are we most concerned about as we select our strategy: Would it be the name of the Lord, the name of our political party, or the name and health of our country?

    5. If we go partisan (politically), will we: act as if winning at all costs is what counts (all is permissible in love and war), or would we act as if what counts is whether we are committed to speaking the truth in love and always representing our enemies in the way that fairly represents their position?

  118. su says:


    You may need to shorten this. Maybe it needs revision, too. I welcome your guidance with it.



    This is my second time posting with RBC, first time ever online (maybe) because my actual first post (done yesterday evening) has yet to appear publicly. Perhaps, there was a malfunction with my submission. Shall I try again? Thankfully, I made copy, as I don’t like a little window to type into. It was as not direct as this is. Anyway, it is difficult for me to not say anything to your comments.

    First, I have bad writing skills, so I hope you hear gentle words when you read it. Bear in mind, though, that I am a little hurt by you, sibling in Christ, and I feel I have an obligation to share that about myself with you. However, I don’t have a private manner in which to do this. Unfortunately, this is the only forum available. Please forgive me, if this is not as God might have it. I might be ignorant and need correction.

    We are called to be pure, holy, consecrated and other applicable things. Because we are not perfect does not mean we are not to point out sin. I was a bit confused when you implied we might be relieving the Holy Spirit of a terrible responsibility. However, I was glad to hear you share that confronting sin is part of who we are. Perhaps, your point was meant to line up with how Jesus handled the woman caught in adultery, he who is without sin cast the first stone, or how He guides us to be careful when addressing a brother in the wrong.

    Next, I’m not sure who your target audience is. If you are talking to the greater population (outside of this blog), how will they hear you? To say people don’t make a stand about cheating, rape and other sin is gotten from where? Again, I’m a little uncertain about what you are saying. To me, this group (on RBC) cares very much about Godliness (and are willing and have taken stands on many concerns). That being said, it is good of you to work out the details that you need to have assurance of your position. I’m a glad you asking for support to statements you hear! However, I feel you putting everyone in the same boat, as you write (and expecting them to be God, able to address all problems). I’m sure you know that with the Holy Spirit in us, we will be convicted of right and wrong, whether our own or that of another (and what to do about it). I hear your frustration with those who don’t live like this but wonder if it will help you to rethink why all this bothers you.

    Maybe it is because some issues are more important to you than others? Or, perhaps you simply feel some are overlooked, like the environment (and maybe due to an abortion crusade, for instance)? Maybe you didn’t realize how this might come off. It feels like I am being called a hypocrite and/or that there is no reason to try and change our laws.

    It has been my perspective, that if you are not able to respect life (and the essence of it), how are you going to anything else? Maybe, in this vein, abortion represents ALL of the issues and that is why folks get so passionate? We’ve denied our land life, we’ve denied our children a heritage, we’ve allowed soldiers to die for unknown reasons, etc. Is it the final crux (with or without the homosexuality and/or beastiality referred to by another person in this dialogue)? Is it an apparent sign of a culmination of things we have neglected and/or that the foundations intended for our country are slipping away (and, maybe, if we looked deep enough, we might be unsure of our own strength to withstand)?

    I too have gotten silly emails. Do I conclude that you are put off by your own brothers and sisters (having to dissect the stuff that you get/hear from them)? I have gotten some (especially during the election). There was one that a person on copy exposed the error of the message. Another one was by someone close to me and I had to refute it. However, that does not mean we as Christians are not sensitive to the ailments around us.

    Revolt is not always helpful. However, it is my understanding that tactics similar to this were built into our constitution from the beginning, if the intent of it did not remain. Constitution? What is ours, our make-up / nature, especially if our founders, who sure paid a high price for us to be here in the capacity we are, wanted it differently? If this is so, how long do we wait before we act?

    I’ve heard it said over and over here that one sin is not greater than another. I am of the sort that does consider that one sin may be more serious than the next. However, that does not mean I, as a sinner, am in any worse / better place than the next. Evidence (but not all inclusive) to my argument entails the social effects of murder compared with someone who (purposely) short changes another, let’s say $1. Neither is to be done but the consequences are greater. Why then is it said, he who is forgiven much loves much? Does this mean they sinned more and/or their sin had more effect? But why then do we not assign the same punishment to all crimes? Perhaps, it is all relative and I am wrong (or it is only semantics we are talking about).

    Please keep in mind that the topic of this article we are commenting on involves Obama, Abortion and Notre Dame (not necessarily in that order:). That is not to say we cannot bring up other issues but are you deflecting from one sin to point out others? We know many people do not do as required. What else is new? It seems your passion is directed as a defense. Why might that be?

    Who has shown you more support, Obama, Steve and/or others with RBC? Granted, they have different roles but you seem to give the current president more benefit of doubt than those who read your comments. Like you, I want to know the facts before decisions. And I too wonder how much the media (and other institutions) play a role. Based on Eph. 6:10-20, no doubt, there are powers at play! However, this is not Barak’s first year in politics. It is our job to work with what we know. And we didn’t ASK HIM to run. I don’t like to guess at what a person might do simply on their words and/or the image they portray. In fact, if that is much of what they give me, I am leery. There are web sites that can tell you what an official voted for (and in detail). You probably know that. According to your approach to matters, what substance did/do you have to put / keep such a person in one of the largest roles in the world? And, lastly, why is it OK to say, how do we know he hasn’t changed his mind, when the same can be said about Bush, who, as a president, you hold contempt for? Now that he is no longer in office that is a reasonable methodology?

    Obama didn’t exactly boycott the National Day of Prayer but he did say in Turkey (references available, if you so desire) we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation. There is a fine line here because he said we are citizens bound by a set of ideals. However, I don’t know about you but, for me, when looking at the whole sentence, it is confusing; who is he speaking for? How do we join Muslim, Jewish and Christian values without denying God? Even if all religions point to God (ie, you can find Him no matter what route you are on), can we be that sophisticated? Does God Himself suggest Israel live under such thinking? I think being a melting pot does exactly what it says and the reason God allows us to be brought low, is so that we learn to look back toward Him, to build us up again, after being refined. By the way, did you get the email with the Preambles/Bill of Rights from all 50 states? I confess that I didn’t verify that each one does refer to God, as is implied. While this email wraps up mentioning the ACLU and federal courts, my point is that BO is very subtle in what he says. It makes me wonder, even though he may urge me to hold firm to my beliefs, what god/God am I enticed to bow down to when under his hand?

    Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah (Shadrack, Meshach and Abednego) had the choice to say, it is only a statue. It means nothing. As is read in these exchanges, words work, they have effect. Obviously, so do actions. As stated by some here (and clearly portrayed in the Bible story involving the 3 men noted), I do not want to defile myself. Have you heard of the frogs put in water that were enjoying the warmth? They were slowly boiled to death.

    BO has given us proof. He made his position clear on life and abortion. I agree, as you say, sin is sin. Why muddy the waters? And you are wrong to say nothing can be done about the law. By your own admission, vote(s) have been taken on abortion related matters in the last 30 years. Whether or not there are earmarks, has not Obama told us how he will vote? He stressed he wanted to reduce the number of abortions during his campaign yet, as someone pointed out, in his first 100 days he opened the door to more. The article Mart provides as a link states, Mr. Obama’s remarks offered no new policy initiatives aimed at reaching out to the antiabortion forces. I feel like I am expected to accept a pacifier when hearing him talk about this.

    Did you see the movie Amazing Grace? How and in what time span did Wilberforce fight slavery? Research the facts, how many times did he take a stand? And what was his capacity? This was so embedded in his society that some knew nothing (or at least had no regard for anything) else. Why didn’t we settle on common ground with this issue? What about the rapes (and other ills) then?

    What about Esther? Was she supposed to say I have no choice in the matter? She had the option to follow the avenue that her head is more important (as it will be cut off if I am not favored)?

    We are called to elect into office who we think will best serve this country. I have not been impressed with any one candidate for quite some time. In fact, I’ve wanted to blend the top two contenders for awhile now. Either way, I recall a phrase from Batman Begins (a movie), it’s not who I am underneath but what I DO that defines me. Most of us feel it is who we are that prompts our actions; hence, I take this to mean, it is not the surface person you will see if I take off my mask that tells you who I am but the fruit that grows from me. God does encourage us to look at that, as we try to discern things.

    I hear a lot of burden in these blogs. Many joys and true wisdom from God are present, as well. I want to help us persevere! I care about our growth and maturity as Christians.

    Mtman, I don’t know what stage you consider yourself spiritually. I am at a weak place. So to hear you speak as if I (belonging to those who refer to) am not doing enough / don’t care about several matters or as if the hands of our government are tied, shocks me. Although, I want to believe you didn’t intend to say this, if you reread your submissions, that can easily be taken as your opinion. I want to have hope; I need this. I want encouragement; I need this. Therefore, I supply you with the same. Please keep on seeking His Will and Way! Please accept my input as from a sister in Christ, wanting to be founded only on Him. Please know, even Paul kept his inner circle tight, so his mission was not compromised in anyway. You may get to have an impact like him.

    Watch. Discern. Confess, make adjustments where they fall in line with His teachings. And continue to love the Lord your God with all your body, mind and soul (and heart), above else no other.

    I read a recent article (sometime in 2009) about common ground with abortion. It was before Barak’s speech (maybe 2 month ago). I tried to find it. I thought it was via AOL. Although it seemed the best I’ve seen awhile, that sickness in my stomach remained. If I recall, it left both sides happy but not. Whether it is truth or not, I am reminded that Hitler seemed to please many people early on his leadership. They saw him as a potentially great one. Please understand, I’m not insinuating this with BO. I bring it up with regard to concession on abortion. While we may be left with no choice (other than, as many suggest, to befriend those considering this and/or those who are or who may likely become sexual promiscuous – in all the sense that Jesus wants us to come aside sinner, like ourselves) than to compromise. This thought makes me think of a wolf in sheep’s clothes. Maybe it is time to join forces and look into what our founding fathers may have encouraged long ago? Is this tyranny? How can you (the USA) demand my tax dollars be used against my religious beliefs? How can you implement laws that impose a religion not sought when we were established? Are we belittling our history by finding the middle ground? Wasn’t that an option prior to the Boston Tea Party?

    I guess Caleb and Joshua had to try and still people / rent their clothes, when they didn’t think it possible to enter the land God promised them. They didn’t wear the rumors and/or vile reports heeded. However, they had to live with the consequences of the rebellion of their people. Is that what we are doing? Must we, given our constitution?

    We need to use this platform to come together. God knows we need each other to hold on, to persist until the end. Times will get even tougher (to what extent and when, we do not know exactly, although He does call us pay attention). Doesn’t He tell us to do all that we can for our fellow sisters and brothers in the Lord (perhaps, even before serving non-believers)? What is common and what are we really willing to stand for? And to what extent? This is not in our own power. Do we know we are truly in Him? Do we know we will be strong no matter what? And how do we know this? What tugs at the strings of our hearts? Our own confidence? The power of our thinking? I hear of believers being forced to die by steam rollers, where family members are made to watch. There is a ministry that addresses persecuted Christians. At first, it scared me. But God has used it to make me examine my faith and His part and my part in that.

    Truly, where is our strength? Individually and as a country? But, also, as friends of Christ?

    Many on this blog have so much more wisdom than I do. May God prod me to do only HIS will. Let me raise up prayers for all of us. I will pray that we grow richly and deeply in the knowledge of Him who died for us and the grace and mercy provided by God our Father, ready to admit to Him our own shortcomings and failures, knowing He will transform and lift us up. I also think of specifics mentioned (divorce, those working with unwed pregnant women, etc). Regarding the polarity in our country, can we be a collective unit (like those who listened to Esther’s uncle), when she and he called upon their community to intercede before God? Will calling for a day of prayers AND fasting be received? Who wants to help organize / coordinate a plan?

    I share/review this realizing how much I need prayer, direction and support. I am so afraid of falling (which I seem to do everyday) that I bury myself in trying to get to know God more (maybe at the expense of living). So, what then, is driving me? Fear or Love?

  119. daisymarygoldr says:

    poohpity, Laurilee is right… “You are a truly beautiful person in Christ…” and that applies to each one of us… who were ugly sinners in the past but by grace have been clothed with the beautiful righteousness of Christ.

    Having said that poohpity, I think (correct me if I’m wrong) though you know that God sees you as a beautiful person in Christ, you are unable to accept it for yourself. If you did then you would not still talk about your sinful past and see other folks as those “who think of themselves more highly than they ought”.

    The reason why I’m saying this is poohpity, whatever you have shared with us about your past and present… pales in comparison to “the history before Christ” of friends I have on the other side of this globe. One particular friend who comes to mind is a person I knew during my childhood. He must have been 18-19 … Godless, into drugs, sex, alcohol, demon possessed and suffered due to mental/emotional disorder. I must mention this that people here do not have to wait to get to heaven and meet with the man from Gadara… he is still alive and walking on this earth.

    Back then, we did baptisms in the river and we all… both big and small used to walk in a little procession…displaying verses on banners… singing songs… and the men would proclaim the Gospel through a public address sound system and it was all fun for us kids but for the grown-ups it was a serious call to preach the good news to others. The way to the river led through some thick woods where this man lived… just out there under the trees… cutting himself with rocks… bleeding all over and whenever our procession went by… he used to shout and shriek to run away and hide into the deeper parts of the woods.

  120. daisymarygoldr says:

    poohpity, God is good and in the appointed time His mercy extended to this young man who responded to the good news of Jesus preached by the church… and accepted Christ as his personal Savior. Today, he is not just sitting fully clothed and in his right mind inside the church… he is boldly proclaiming the gospel in the marketplaces and highways of that Godforsaken land. He was illiterate but now reads and preaches from KJV… prays aloud and also converses in KJ English!

    You would think that he was forgiven much and will also love much. Yes, you are right… he loves much… and wants all his people to be saved from their sins and have eternal life. …And so he tirelessly preaches about… God’s love for sinners like him and in that same breath also preaches about…God’s coming judgment on sinners who love and indulge in drugs and alcohol and sex. His bold proclamation of “the whole truth” does not offend or drives people away… rather brings many of his people to Christ… many who were dead in all those sins and also practised the gory sin of sacrificing their firstborn sons to appease their evil gods… so they could have a bountiful harvest.

    poohpity, do you still see Christians who speak out against sin as being judgmental to drive people away from church? Even if you… I want you to know that you are someone who is very special and greatly loved by me…and is always in my daily prayers. “…and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of the darkness and rather even convict” Eph 5: 11 (YLT)

  121. poohpity says:

    Hopefully it will be grace that drives you! Hopefully it will be grace that drives us all! We all fall but with Christ we get up and start over because His mercies are new every morning. We are given a life to live abundantly, a perfect life (Jesus) was given because we can never be perfect. Knowing everyday that we are given permission to fail because it is expected gives us the opportunity to live under Grace. If we are not expected to be perfect we can not expect anyone else to be. Only Christ was perfect and that was because He alone was fully God and fully man.

  122. mtman says:

    SU: That is certainly a lengthy statement, I don’t know where to begin.
    What I am saying is that I don’t like abortion and that in God’s eyes all sin is equal. In man’s law we weigh sin or wrongdoing and mete out punishment accordingly. As BabyJ pointed out we need to take the plank out of our eye before we confront a brother or sister with a speck in theirs.
    I’m not trying to change anyone else’s opinion only expressing my observations and opinion.
    It may interest you that I voted for Geo. W. Bush both times. Our president does not make laws, he signs them into being. Those in the House and Senate are the culprits who make laws or not as the case may be. I think that Obama should be given a chance. I have lived long enough to see people gain the office of President and change from what they were. He hasn’t been in office long enough for me to decide.
    The abortion issue has come up for vote in individual states but the courts have struck it down or it didn’t pass. I believe S. Dakota was the last. It seems to me that after 35 years we are still pretty much where we started on abortion. Also that we could be working on things now to lessen the impact of abortion. That would require each of us individually to prayerfully consider what we can do to help.
    You indicate that I put all Christians collectively as non-doers. That is not at all what I intended. Right now there are a few hearty souls doing a lot of the work. There are more that aren’t and should be. I hope that helps you understand that I am not about putting Christians down or wanting to compromise on Christian principals one iota. I just think it is time we did more hands on working for solutions since it will be years if ever that abortion will no longer be legalized. I hope that helps you understand and if what I said was hurtful I am very sorry for that because it was not intended to hurt anyone. It is just my observations and opinion. When you grow older as I have you see many things and have many experiences. I try to draw from them. This blog gives everyone a chance to express life lessons and opinions. For that I am grateful.

  123. poohpity says:

    I talk about my sinful past because that is my testimony of what Christ has done in my life. Some forget who they were before Christ. I will always remember who I was so that I will remember how much I need a savior as I do everyday. I remember my past so that I may learn from it and continue to grow in Grace. If we are not to remember our testimony why do we study the OT and the NT which are the testimonies of those who came before us.

  124. poohpity says:

    You asked about confronting sin, I believe the bible says those that are spiritual go to a person and confront the sin and take precautions so that you yourself will not be drawn by it. Ripping people apart with words and anger is a sin too! Love means seeking the highest good for someone so in love I would.

  125. daisymarygoldr says:

    poohpity, yes, you are right we always remember our past to remind us of our need for our savior’s grace. When sin is addressed we do not get offended if we really hate our past or our present sins… unless we still love our sins more than we love God’s righteousness. The message of the cross and word of God the … offends and rips/cuts at the heart… only those who are able to hate their sins will embrace it as eternal life… those who get offended are driven away because they love their sins more than they love God. I am thankful when others shine the light of God’s word that reveals the sins hidden within the darkness of my heart… that is what helps me to stop sinning and grow more in the grace of Christ.
    poohpity, please, let me know which of my words on this page ripped you or displayed anger towards you…I will take them back… but then its OK if you consider me as judgmental and one who thinks myself more highly than I ought to… it is God who knows and sees our hearts… and no matter what, I still love you in the Lord.

  126. mtman says:

    Mart: I have read your 5 point breakdown. I’m very impressed. That took some deep thought and organization. I am definitely going to give them all some thought. Any chance those could be a topic for each poster to consider.
    To all the vets out there I want to thank you ahead of time for your service and I would hope that you would be remembered every day for assuring our freedom. To all those who have made the ultimate sacrifice – my eyes get misty just thinking about what you have done for us.
    I’m saying this early because it is firewood gathering time for next winter and I will be outside most of the coming days.

  127. gr8grannyjacobs says:

    We used to have testimony night in the churches I went to as a youngster. I don’t know of any churches that still do that today. It seemed like a good thing to share each others stories and experiences with each other.There was a bonding which seemed to keep hard feelings away. That’s how I remember it as peaceful and full of God’s grace.

    We all have a story about our salvation and I don’t think it hurts to share. We had the most wonderful pastor at our church a while back and the first question he would ask upon meeting you was What’s your story? Some wanted to share some didn’t but it was a good feeling.It always’ opened dialogue. He isn’t at our church anymore but I will always’ remember him. He had such a heart for God.

    Notre Dame Obama and Abortion is very saddening in that so many heart’s don’t know our Savior. It makes one realize the great need to share God’s word as He did with love.

    daisy& pooh Love & Hugs

  128. gr8grannyjacobs says:

    daisy Is the Gadara you spoke of in Jordan or somewhere else in the Middle East?

  129. nocomprimise says:

    Mart, It’s a wonderful idea-why can’t we all just get along-but as Christians, the salt and light of the earth, I don’t see a lot of wiggle room when it comes to abortion. What fellowship does light have with darkness? Sweet water with bitter, life with death? Yes, people are allowed by law to make their own decision, but in the pool of opinion that comprises democracy, our vote must count for righteousness before God.
    Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever.

  130. poohpity says:

    You have not ripped me apart with words or anger I was just saying that that is a sin that some may feel is all right because the destruction may not be as visible as killing the unborn.

    It just seems that one should always consider whatever stance we take on any issue if we are bringing Glory to God in it and opening the a door to minister to someone in His name. I wish I could explain better what I have been trying to say. I guess loving our enemy and doing good to them would bring more to a saving grace of Jesus Christ than always telling everybody how bad they are sinning. That is just me and although I am by no means perfect in my behavior I want unbelievers to know I am not perfect but forgiven.

    I get so confused by what people say they believe and how they act. I am signing out for awhile and going to take a break maybe I just do not understand what it means to be a follower of Christ and if it is any different than the love I have experienced I missed the point. I do not want to be like the world and it’s ugliness but I see no difference.

  131. daisymarygoldr says:

    gr8grannyjacobs, Gadara is located near the Sea of Galilee… the place where Jesus healed the legion-possessed man in Luke 8:28. Hugs:) to you and poohpity…

    poohpity, I do hear you… you are a faithful follower of Christ…it’s OK to be confused…we all do and that is part of growing up together in Christ… so, stay right here and keep posting!

    Mart, sorry I meandered away from the topic. Please, delete the 4:30 pm, 4:31pm and 5:48 pm posts… because the man from Gadara looks really odd on the Notre Dame, Obama and Abortion page. Thanks!

  132. gr8grannyjacobs says:

    daisy I misread your post I thought you were talking about where you were raised as a child. It must be old age.:)

  133. wretch-like-me says:

    you have said so much so well. I admire your willingness to re-examine what you said and how…
    and thus, own it or rewrite it for clarity sake.
    Furthermore, I cannot tell you how many times I have responded to ‘forward’ emails from friends who mindlessly pass on ‘trash’ without verifying its truth. We need to call it what it is… GOSSIP!

    In the wider picture of things, are we not experiencing the same ‘tax’ that Jesus spoke of when He said,”Render unto Caesar…”

    As Christians, we cannot control/support how our taxes are used but we must pay them all the same. Certainly, Jesus did not support the use of Roman taxes to build temples to false gods, fund armies to crush the Jews and others into submission, or build spas for the roman citizens to enjoy depraved practices.

    Am I wrong in my belief that WE (Christians) ARE NOT called to bring the world to submission under Godly rules; but, to influence the outcome of the ultimate end. This world shall pass away. Our souls will not! Which is more effective:

    1. Passing Godly Laws that people ignore?
    2. Creating a People who keep God’s Law regardless of legislation?

    We are so easily diverted from understanding our true calling. The effective use of our gifts is to confront sin; however, confrontation is always tempered by love. (The greatest of the fruit of the Spirit is Love!)

    Lastly (perhaps most important) Perhaps you need to begin your list with an obvious but very basic question that must be correctly answered before moving on to the other five? (answering it may resolve all the others)


    If you believe as I do, it is because WE are placing greater faith in our own judgement over GOD’S (and that means we would replace HIM with US!

    Afterall, ONLY God creates life. He chooses who conceives and who does not. We play a very small part in the process despite what those who create testtube babies would have us believe(consider Mary, the mother of Jesus)

    This concept raises a hornet’s nest of other issues surrounding birth control… for example when do we cross the line of ‘interfering with God’s Will’.

  134. su says:

    Dear Folks,

    You are all so kind. This blogging thing is not my typical thing and I appreciate your patience (as I wander in my writing, as submit something and find it differently than I recall writing it and as I probably don’t do such a great job of glorifying God).

    I think of gr8grannyjacobs and her wisdom, poohpity and her encouragement, mtman, who has me thinking a lot of how I handle issues, steve who is stable in his presentation, rick, who wonderfully gives us God’s Word and many more. I hope mtman’s firewood gathering goes well! In recent comments, I am reminded how I loved testimony night. It wasn’t that often and it was when a woman from the Middle East discipled me in college. I went to the church she attended for a couple of years. That was when I started to get back on track with the Lord. It WAS fantastic to be reminded of the praises of God in our own time! I also think of the wood burning furnace my dad implemented in one our houses, so that with 7 children he might be able to save some money (and get us to learn the value of hard work). Whew! Did I get muscles or what?! :)

    Mart, thank you for the LIFE journey you provide via these exchanges. As mtman said, I am grateful for them, even if I may not be able to blog much more. It is odd for me (and I don’t know how to stop and/or continue) but am touched!

    Because of His Great Love and Righteousness,


  135. Mart De Haan says:

    Thanks everyone for your involvement here. I’m working on another post to move us to another subject. May not get it up right away this morning.

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