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Four Kinds of Wisdom

According to Buddhist folklore. Two traveling monks reached a river where they met a young woman. Wary of the current, she asked if they could carry her across. One of the monks hesitated, but the other quickly picked her up onto his shoulders, transported her across the water, and put her down on the other bank. She thanked him and departed. As the monks continued on their way, the one was brooding and preoccupied. Unable to hold his silence, he spoke out. “Brother, our spiritual training teaches us to avoid any contact with women, but you picked that one up on your shoulders and carried her!” “Brother,” the second monk replied, “I set her down on the other side, while you are still carrying her.”

As I’ve thought about this story, I’ve been reminded of how important it is to acknowledge that,

While the Bible is the measure of all moral and spiritual truth, all moral and spiritual truth is not confined to the Bible.

To avoid losing perspective on moral and spiritual insight found outside of Scripture, I’ve found it helpful to compare the similarities and differences between secular, religious, biblical, and redemptive wisdom.

Secular wisdom

Secular wisdom includes helpful insights that can be observed without regard for God or the supernatural. Examples of the countless principles of secular wisdom include:

● What we have as the center of our attention has us.

● You can learn more from your critics than your admirers.

● Don’t make a decision in a mood.

● Live for what you will not later regret.

● Trouble is easier to get into than out of.

● Worry robs tomorrow of its problems and today of its strength.

● The measure of a man is not how much he has done, but how much he has loved.

● Wise are those who give others the same generosity they offer themselves, and who give themselves the same criticism they are inclined to give others.

Religious Wisdom

Religious wisdom encompasses secular wisdom, but recognizes God and the supernatural. Some examples are:

● God is the measure of all things.

● What God thinks of us is more important than what we think of ourselves.

● Give yourself to God so that He can give Himself to you.

● Nothing is more relevant than the eternal.

● The most important thought I ever had was my individual accountability to God.

● The most important thing about a person is what he or she believes about God.

● God can enable us to handle everything He sends into our life.

Biblical Wisdom

Biblical wisdom selectively encompasses secular and religious wisdom, while in the process providing something like an international standard of weights and measures. The combined Old and New Covenants provide an authoritative yardstick for evaluating wisdom found inside or outside of the Scriptures. The authors of the Bible urge us to reflect on the wisdom of the Scriptures until God’s Word becomes the window through which we see everything else.

By selectively collecting secular and religious insights into a canon of inspired authority the Bible gives reason to accept all principles that are consistent with truths like:

● A man’s life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses.

● As a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

● Which of you, having a donkey or an ox that has fallen into a pit, will not immediately pull him out on the Sabbath day?

Redemptive Wisdom

In biblical terms this fourth category is the wisdom of the cross. Although foolish by human standards, this kind of insight is what it takes to establish lasting relationships, and to be reconciled to our Creator.

Conventional human wisdom says we must live and grow on the merits of our own thoughts and choices. The wisdom of the cross says that we must live and be enlightened on the merits of One who lived in our place, who died as our stand-in, and who rose from the dead to overcome in our behalf the fatal consequences of our own choices. By redemptive wisdom we learn that we are saved by God’s mercy, not by our merit; by Christ’s dying, not by our doing; by trusting, not by trying.

If we don’t see the difference between redemptive wisdom and other kinds of biblical insight, we might be apt to settle for our knowledge that the greatest of the commandments are to love God with all of our heart, soul, and mind, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. The problem is that, as those two commandments enlighten and inspire us, they also condemn us. As moral laws they remind us that we have not loved God with all of our hearts, nor have we loved our neighbor as ourselves.

Redemptive wisdom is knowing how to escape the reality of our failure to love. And that is where we need the wisdom of the cross (1 Corinthians 1:20-25). It is our failure to love that helps us understand what Paul meant when he said that Christ Jesus “became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—that, as it is written, ‘He who glories, let him glory in the Lord’” (1 Corinthians 1:30-31).

Note: I pulled this out of the file and re-posted it as a part of our present conversation. I originally wrote it out of a concern for young people who discover in college, or even just on the street, that even though the church was entrusted with the truth of Christ, and even though the Bible is the measure of God’s wisdom, the Bible and Church are not the only sources of wisdom. Sometimes as Jesus and the Bible remind us over and over, God’s people show far less heart and wisdom than those who have not yet bowed the knee– and opened the heart– to our only source of forgiveness and immortality.

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109 Responses to “Four Kinds of Wisdom”

  1. Sakoieta says:

    Akwah i:ken tsi ioián:ere!!! Very, very good. Mart, your words should be sent to every church, every Pastor, missionary, every person who strives to work with people in any type of spiritual work. Excellent summation. I am happy to read your writing. It is amazing. In the work I do as a Mohawk Spiritual/Family Life counsellor, I have tried to get members of the clergy to think about these things for over 30 years with little or no acceptance on their part. In the space of two or three days, here on this site, we have reached common ground, where we cannot only talk with each other, but we can also relate to each other in peace, mutual respect and friendship. The Creator’s Spirit has done good work here, with those who write and with myself. I have grown in my understanding and appreciation of people and their beliefs as well. Niawenhko:wa. Many Great Thanks.

  2. Loretta Beavis says:

    Where reality really uncovers my failure to love and my best efforts to hide my failures to love is before I take communion. I think I’ve been good, done right things, less bad things, less bad thoughts, but something always shows up where I’ve failed because I’m still obsessing about it and keep it inside me. I need the wisdom of the cross to reconcile me to God.

    In the Bible, right after the Lord’s supper, in Mark 14:29-31 (NKJ) Peter says even if all are made to stumble, he won’t. Jesus replies that Peter is just about to do the opposite. Peter gets hot under the collar and says he won’t deny Jesus even if he has to die with Him, and the rest of the apostles agree likewise. But, as prophesied, they failed big time. I have the hardest time forgiving myself; that is where Jesus redeems me, gives me peace.

    I love my Jesus.

  3. chapmartin says:

    Yes, those who have not yet bowed the knee sometimes show more wisdom than God’s children. Thanks Mart. In all this discussion, there has arisen in my a longing, however unrealistic this longing happens to be. It is the longing that Christianity would not be judged and summaized by its abuses.

  4. daisymarygoldr says:

    In reading this article again, I must admit and acknowledge my utter lack in all the four kinds of wisdom.

    While some like the Greek seek all kinds of wisdom and others like the Jews seek signs for deliverance from all kinds of earthly oppression, God’s people are resolved to know nothing, to make a display of the knowledge of nothing, except God’s true wisdom— Jesus Christ and Him crucified!

    God’s wisdom reveals that His kingdom is not of this world. God’s people show far less heart and wisdom because their much sinful and much forgiven hearts are set on things above and not on things below. Their hope in Christ is not for this life alone and by faith they refuse to “accept deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection”

    And even though now the wisdom of God is foolishness to the unbelieving world I am eternally confident that every knee that mocks at the name of Jesus and slanders the blood-redeemed ones belonging to His precious body, will one day bow down to confess with their tongues that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the ultimate honor of God our Father!

    …and it is because of my heart-felt love for all God’s people here including you Sakoieta, “…I always pray to the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, that He may grant you a spirit of wisdom and revelation [of insight into mysteries and secrets] in the [deep and intimate] knowledge of Him,

    By having the eyes of your hearts flooded with light, so that you can know and understand the hope to which He has called you, and how rich is His glorious inheritance for the saints (His set-apart ones)… in Christ…

    …And He has put all things under His feet and has appointed Him the universal and supreme Head of the church …Which is His body, the fullness of Him Who fills all in all [for in that body lives the full measure of Him Who makes everything complete, and Who fills everything everywhere with Himself]. (Eph 1:15- 23)!

  5. tandgmartin says:


  6. BobbiLee says:

    Wow Mart and all of the writers above! What an inspiration for the day ahead. For that matter for my life ahead. I think the real key is in your statement, “the difference between redemptive wisdom and other kinds of biblical insight. . .”, because if we don’t/can’t/won’t understand that difference, we will never live up to our full spiritual capacity. I find it so easy to sometimes fall into the world’s concept of wisdom. We certainly must be discerning.

  7. Sakoieta says:

    She:kon, Chapmartin:
    Isn’t that what your Bible teaches though? It says,”if you go to the table of the Lord and when you get there you remember that your brother has something against you, go and make it right with your brother.” Isn’t this the basis of wisdom contained in Christian belief? In order to heal our unjustness and inappropriate behavior towards others and God we need a method of reconciliation. The Creator provided that method in human form. We are held accountable by God to reconcile past infractions. Too many people I find, will recognize they have made a mistake and only mouth the words, I’m sorry. They belive then that is the end of the story. I don’t believe Christian or Spiritual teaching teaches that for a moment. We are taught as Mohawks, if you steal, doesn’t matter how much you stole. If you don’t want to be remembered in your community as a thief then go pay it back. That is the greatest way you can show you are sorry. Go and restore what you taken to the one you took it from. No plea bargaining here. Once you have paid it back we will no longer call you a thief. We will throw that label into the waters to wash it away forever and the label will no longer be spoken from the tongues of our people. The Church although it has done many good things, still needs to make restoration for the bad things it has and had committed. This is the only way true restoration takes place. I refer to it as the four R’s of peacemaking. Responsibility has to be taken. Restitution is the next step. Reconciliation follows third and then Restoration. I believe this is the wisdom of the Creator as He gave it to us as Mohawks. This is what I believe. If the church wants the label, it is labelled with to be changed, there is only one way, as Mohawks, we see that happening.

  8. poohpity says:

    As a “Child of God” and a native american. :-) The only way I ever would have excepted that God made me me, was by reading the bible and watching everything around me be in harmony. I have also had since my walk with God the bible and the leadership of God to teach me and not depending upon man but the Holy Spirit to guide and teach in all things to realize I do not have a clue, lol. Some tend to put God in a box and determine that how things are done by Him fit into our human perspective, now I laugh at that. Great post Mart as always. In His Love and mine, Deb

    I am not responsible for the sins of my ancestors but I am however responsible for mine and I do love with all that I am not perfectly but to my best. :-)

  9. poohpity says:

    Romans 14 really spoke to me today. I think there are many on this blog that have experienced the hurt, rejection and harm the “church” has caused. But they are only human beings that mess up too and one day hopefully they will realize the harm caused but God who is the ultimate judge will deal with them in His time and in His way.

  10. SFDBWV says:

    What good is all the knowledge in the world and all the supposed wisdom of man, if you lose your soul?

    God went to a great deal of trouble in order to bring man back into fellowship with Him. Including becoming human and dieing for us all.

    Should we then say, well, the story is interesting, but I have found another way, so no thanks I like my way better.

    In the Garden of Gethsemane,Jesus ask for another way, if possible. There was no other way given.

    The death and resurection of Jesus of Nazareth, made a way for us to be reconciled to God.

    So through Jesus I am forgiven and saved from sin and judgement.

    Because I believe this, I also believe there is no other way to have fellowship with God and escape the judgement I deserve. No other way except Christ.

    This seperates me from all the other beliefs that all other people have in the world.

    Jesus told us that the world first hated Him, and that as His followers the world would hate us too.

    Jesus sent out His disciples and told them to offer the Gospel and that any who rejected it, for the disciples to shake the very dust from their feet. For it was better for thoes people to have never heard the Gospel then for them to reject it. By rejecting the messenger, they rejected the Christ and by rejecting Christ they were rejecting God who sent Him.

    Give me Jesus. All the world can have it’s wisdom in any form.

    Steve ( Native American by birth,Christian by choice.)

  11. Sakoieta says:

    Excellent choice Steve. I applaud your choice. Now if I may ask respectfully which one did you choose? Catholic, Baptist, Evangelical, Mennonite, Methodist, Protestant, Reformed, Wesleyan, Arayan, Pentecostal, Apostolic, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Jehovah Witness, Nazarene, New Life? Even with this I am sure I left some out. Your choice. Which one did you choose that separates you from all the others in the world? Me, I chose Mohawk Longhouse, because that is the one that appeals to me. Same reason I am sure you will tell me which one you chose. I am also wearing a white shirt today. I hope you are too. If not why did you not choose to wear white? PERSONAL CHOICE!! I have chosen where I find I can relate to the Creator and he to me in my own God given language.

    I have tried to point out the history of the church with our people for one reason only, not to dwell on it or blame but to help people realize these things happened. There was no wisdom in these actions. It would be different if it stopped, but it hasn’t. Still today, there are churches that if I attend they immediately try to “circumcise” me of my culture. Do you know how painful it is to be “circumcised” over and over, just because I come into a service dressed differently or looking different? It seems to me there was a council at Jerusalem that addressed just that issue. Therefore I believe, we are responsible. Just like the story I told of David appealing to the Lord to send the rain and the Lord refusing to do so until a treaty was reconciled that Saul, David’s predecessor, had violated. We are responsible for the activities of our forfathers, especially if those activities still continue. That is Biblical. That is sound doctrinal teaching.

  12. poohpity says:

    I choose a personal relationship with the Lord no religion for me. I made the choice of a tied died shirt today with many colors and patterns. Is this on topic anyway? Are you telling me no, well Ok. Forgive me and I am signing off for the weekend to enjoy, Payson, AZ. To the high country out of this horrible heat. Have a good one, my friends and God grant you pleasant feelings toward everyone who is different. When we each were born the mold was broken because God wanted us all to be unique and we can learn so much from listening to each other.

  13. Sakoieta says:

    Steve, I agree to disagree. I am not going to argue with you. I don’t argue. I have only shared my thoughts here because I felt the need to share a different side of the coin, so to speak. I do respect your choices and your thoughts. I am done with this topic for now. I wish you and all the others the best. We’ll discuss it again years from now when you are in heaven and I happen to walk by. We’ll have alot of time and endless wisdom to share then. Onen ki wahi (So long until later)

  14. bubbles says:

    Really wish you’d stay. ‘Been listening to everyone for the past few days, thought alot about you. Have always always thought Native Americans were beautiful and very special people.

  15. chapmartin says:

    Sakoieta, I too have enjoyed the discussion. Hope you hang around. Perhaps we find ourselves full circle again to the paragraph in Marts current blog entry, “Redemptive wisdom is knowing how to escape the reality of our failure to love. And that is where we need the wisdom of the cross (1 Corinthians 1:20-25). It is our failure to love that helps us understand what Paul meant when he said that Christ Jesus “became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—that, as it is written, ‘He who glories, let him glory in the Lord’” (1 Corinthians 1:30-31).” Thanks again Mart.

  16. BobbiLee says:

    When one comes to Christ in surrender and belief, one does not give up the culture or ethnicity or even the language or dress of his people unless one wants to. When a German person accepts Christ as His redemption and Savior, he still remains a German, possibly wears the ethnic clothing, eats German food and speaks the language. The same is true of any culture or nationality.

    Redemptive wisdom is that which lives beyond and above culture and nationality or religion and that includes the professed Christian “religion”. Again, Christianity is not, or should not be, a religion, but has to do with a relationship with Jesus Christ. Until and unless we gain the redemptive wisdom that brings us to this knowledge, we are not truly wise at all. It’s what Mart calls, “The wisdom of the cross”. amen

  17. SFDBWV says:

    Sakoieta, and all. “Christ said” …..You see the only way I have to collectively say what Christ stated is by the shared statements, story and miracle we know as the Bible. If you do not accept what the Bible says in its entirety, I cannot relate to you by speaking from it.Which why a warning is placed in it at the last chapter of Revelation. That nothing is to be taken away from the Book.

    In the early beginning of the church as it was being formed, as an institution. The Emperor Constantine adopted the faith of Christ. He took many traditions that he and the pagan people of his time used and celebrated and wove them into a “church” tradition.

    But what are the fundamentals of following and believing Christ?

    I have a few basics.

    One. Jesus of Nazareth was born to a virgin. Made pregnant by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    Two. Jesus of Nazareth was crucified for the sins of all mankind, By His own power he died in our place.

    Three.By His own power he was brought back to life, the resurection. To be the first and show us His power, proof of all he had said.

    Four. Jesus of Nazareth is in fact God.

    Having these fundamentals in place, I could not nor would I disagree with any group of people who call themselves Christian and identify themselves by whatever name they wish.

    Differences begin from here. How then do we live? The Bible tells me to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

    Since I believe that the Bible is the Word of God, then here within these pages are my life instructions. And yes my preparations for eternity.

    All of Christianity began there at Jerusalem. Jesus Himself, after the resurection ,commanded His followers to go into all Nations,teaching and baptizing them, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Teaching them to observe all things He had commanded them.

    The great commission is to go and spread the Good News. It was then and is now the Job of Christian followers to tell the uninformed the story of redemtion.

    Everything is to be secondary to following Christ.

    Christians are seperated out of every nation and culture to become a “New People”. Leaving behind the people they were, to become a people for God.

  18. SFDBWV says:

    Sakoieta, Please brother, do not turn and run away. I do not come bedore you in a spirit of argueing. It is my compassion for you that compels me to offer the light of Jesus Christ.

    If we were not seperated by this computer and were able to stand together and see into each others eyes, you could see my heart and understand my motivation. I offer you my friendship. Earlier when I appologized if I had offended you, you ignored it by not even commenting one way or the other. I still offer my appologies if I have offended you. But do not appologize for my defense of Christianity.

    People fail, all people everywhere are weak and fail to live up to the standards God made. This very much includes me. This is why I need Christ.

    But I will not berate the efforts of people who came before me in their attempt to organize and participate in being Christian. They tried. Some made mistakes some had success. As it is now. I will not join in a chant of church bashing. As popular as it may seem to some.

    I will see you in Heaven Sakoieta. But we can still be friends here.


  19. ygp says:

    When I was very young, my parent sent me to learn Chinese language. I forget most of what I have learned, but there are several characters that are stuck in my mind. One of them is : ” an ” which part of the word “phing an = safe/secure” and if not mistaken “an wei= comfort” The word “an” made of the top part of the character or “cia= house” and “ni=woman” underneath of the top character. The teacher told me that to be safe and comfort; one house should only has one “woman in charge” or one man has one wife. She said Chinese charcacters are full of wisdom. Yet in olden days most of Chinese men had more than one wives,plus cuncubines. Tey need government to get involve in regulationg this matter in modern days: monogamy. We need the wisdom of redemption, and strength from the Holy Spirit to do what the worldly wisdom says.
    Sakoiets, please stay. I enjoy learning the Mohwak wisdom too. I am saved by Lord Jesus blood, and the good thing is He does not demand me to throw away my culture. In Indonesia, my family still eat Indonesian and Chinese food. We still celebrate Chinese New Year, Christian children receive money in red pocket on that day, we visiting elder family member and pay respect to them,while they are still alive. We have dinner together. But we do not pray to our ancestors,as non Christian will do.We respect our ancestors, but we are unable to communicate with them. We are allowed to wear chongsam if we choose to. But I don’t. because I am not comfortable in that dress. But please, tell us more about your wisdom and thought. I learn as much from you as from Mart, Steve, Bob etc, all of you, although sometime I disagree with tehm in certain view. I feel like singing: “Jesus loves all little children, all the children of the world: Red and yellow, Black and White, they are precious in His sight, Jesus loves all children of the world”. Christian may fail to practice that perfectly, but our Lord never fail.

  20. Loretta Beavis says:

    Here I go! This is long, but I believe it’s for someone who wants the wisdom of the cross, to know they are special to God, today. I was where you are.

    RELIGION (wisdom of the world) is man setting the rules for how an individual MAY have a relationship with God. Another term that has come about is “denomination” which has LABELS like Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, etc. Rituals, man made rules about God, exist in these religions that CONTROL or QUALIFY you for God’s love. Their leadership wants to be “The High Priest” or the access to God. Only through Jesus (THE High Priest,) can one gain access to God. Yet even in religious organizations, there are some who are followers of Christ. You know it in your spirit when you meet them, they’re different.

    I don’t do religion or denomination anymore because that is what makes for counterfeit Christianity. Humanity has a brain that unavoidably organizes things, thoughts, the “stuff” of living things. When I fill out forms for the communication necessities of this world, besides someone wanting to know my age, race, gender, is the block for religions denomination – sometimes choices, sometimes “other”- I usually check other and write in Christian. I believe we are all one race, the human race, created in His image: “And God said, let us make man in our image, after our own likeness: …” (Genesis 1:26 KJ) The English word “God,” a singular, noun was translated from the Hebrew “Elohim” which is plural in it’s use. God is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. I would venture to say that most Christians who are pursuing their relationship with God, will tell you this. We do have different external appearances for which we now know the cause, all the physical and soulful stuff about us is in our DNA.

    My point is, to choose to become a Christian, accepting Jesus Christ as your savior and turning from sin, admitting He is the Son of God, died for all our sin and was resurrected and is in heaven, seated at the right hand of God, and is God in the flesh …keep going:)) requires I subject all the wisdoms, the glory of men, of this world, to the wisdom of the cross, the glory to God and start living in faith for the redemptive wisdom of the cross. Unplugging my cord, and staying off the batteries to get “Light” is scary at first and at times.

    The wisdom of the world is full of holes – is why in filling out forms there’s boxes you can check that says “other.” The wisdom of the world is useful, it has utility; but it’s not TRUSTWORTHY of our love and trust. Have you ever been in a discussion where some wise person is explaining some principle or method (child-rearing, getting a job etc) that is supposed to “work every time?” A hand goes up and a story is told about the exception to the rule? There are no exceptions to God’s rules. He loves me, I’m sinful, His only begotten Son paid the price for my sin so I could live in eternity with Him. He is the ONLY living God. God’s love is trustworthy. It’s scary-thrilling to trust perfect love because our experiences, our worldly wisdom, can’t teach it, demonstrate it or document it … each person has to RECEIVE it personally. His Holy Spirit is that perfect love received into me. The “Discover the Word” radio study for Friday, did you listen?

    I can hear some of the bloggers are desperate for love, they’ve been exposed to the lies about God labeled as wisdom; you see yourself as the world sees you, not how God sees you. They test us online Christians, we fail to give the perfect response. Jesus was the “perfect man.” Jesus will not fail the test.

    I’m desperate for those bloggers to let go of the worldly wisdom, everything you know and think is trustworthy and just say “yes” to God’s love. We can trust God’s love because HE FIRST loved us. He risked and gave everything for us. (Try to pull that one off yourself in mortal counseling!) When you read the Bible, you will begin to hear it correctly.

    You know in your heart, He’s real, you’re just scared and you hide behind other wisdom- in James Chapter 4, when you submit yourself to God (it’s not slavery) you can resist the devil and he will flee. He is not equal with Jesus. When you draw near to God, He draws near to you.

    Please don’t keep a distance; keep blogging, visit different churches – then you’ll have NO DOUBT BETWEEN about the difference of religion, denominations and being a follower of Christ, a Christian. I enjoy times with my religious friends, geez, there my neighbors, my customers, my relatives, my teachers. “RBC Day of Discovery videos have amazing documentation of what I’m talking about! ) But we disagree and I am clear about why. The bible says that “Christians” are known by “their fruit” The Fruit of the Spirit is love.

    In Christ’s time his followers were labeled followers of Christ or Christians. Just as My parents came from Lithuania so they were called Lithuanians; I was born here and I am called an American, yah?

    So I, and those who posted so, I hear, are saying we may have some mortal identity given, chosen or assigned by those who birthed or raised us or take a census. But when we die or alter the birth records, that identity is gone … may not have been important to begin with. My identity IS … in Jesus Christ. I am a child of God. My eternal birth record cannot be altered; it doesn’t decay like all matter does. Christians have their name in the Lamb’s Book of Life. I’ll enter Heaven because I’m born again (John Chapter 3); I’m a new creation, I have a new way of thinking, a better way to live. People think I’m foolish for my faith in the wisdom of the cross, my Jesus. I’m definitely a fool for Jesus today, for someone who’s reading this and is wanting to make a decision, (the power of God given free will), to become a follower of Christ-FREE FROM the heavy yoke of religion. Go for Jesus with all your heart!

    A joyful fool for Jesus Christ by love. :)


  21. wretch-like-me says:

    Dear Friends,
    I have held back on this one with caution to see the course of events unfold. I feared this topic would cause the frustration I imagined it would. It is an old struggle… between knowledge, wisdom, and faith.

    Ultimately, to become a christian requires each of us to place our ‘faith’ in Jesus as ‘The Christ'(Savior). Placing my faith in HIM I ‘receive’ Him in the sense that I believe ALL that He said, taught, and lived.

    “No One Comes to the Father, except thru ME!”

    I have yet to find another ‘belief'(religion, philosophy,etc.) that makes that claim AND BACKS IT UP with the evidence of eye witnesses who died rather than give up or deny their testimony.

    It is hard to accept the fact that ‘christians’ are called to follow Jesus despite losing all else… wealth, health, possessions, reputation, friends, family, even life itself!

    Remember Christ’s own words in Matt.10:32-39

    I am reminded by our recent topic of ‘pitchmen’.

  22. diamonds says:

    Sakoieta, I pray that you will continue to post as the Lord leads you to do so. My life has been enriched by your comments. When you first wrote, I “heard” the hurt, pain, and frustration in your words. Although we have the Bible and the Holy Spirit (and they never contradict each other), none of us can put a box around God. “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unfathomable(inscrutable, unsearchable) are His judgments (His decisions)! And how untracable (mysterious, undiscoverable) are His ways (His methods, His paths)! Romans 11:33—amplified version—Even those of us who have the mind of Christ cannot say “We know it all.” Our God is too big. Let’s just bow in reverence and worship. May God continue to increase our understanding in order to know Him better. Be blessed.

  23. mtman says:

    I note that some believe they need to defend their faith and belief in Jesus. I don’t find within the bible where it says we need to defend our Lord or our faith. It says to go out and preach the gospel to all creatures. To be like little children in our belief and trust in Him who died on that cross for us. I believe our Lord can aptly defend himself. So why are we so defensive when someone like Sakoieta posts something that actually challenges us in a good way? From what I have extrapolated from what he has posted he believes fully in the bible. He believes in Jesus. But he does not believe in it so narrowly that it is oppressive or restrictive. So what is it that makes some believe if we don’t follow the precise way they believe we can’t be good Christian’s? Have we lost the simplicity of our Lord. Why so much rancor between denominations? Maybe someone can tell me precisely which one is right and how all the rest are wrong. Do we really know the actual difference between being a follower of Jesus and Religion?
    I see the terms worldly wisdom and God’s wisdom used. Who do you think actually gave worldly wisdom? Did it just suddenly appear one day out of no where?
    If you claim to profess Jesus as your Lord and Savior and pray on your knees on Sunday but then prey on your brother and sister the rest of week who are you fooling? Not the rest of the world for sure, they watch and decide. As for church bashing, churches that fail to live up to what our Lord instructed us to be need to be talked about. That is not either popular or bashing. If Jesus came to visit many churches this Sunday he would be tossing around tables and chasing the deceivers and fakes out. We need to be talking about churches and how some are failing those trying to follow our Lord instead of helping them draw closer.
    There is much to be learned from wisdom of all kinds. We get real truth from the bible but when we get to heaven we will find out what we consider wisdom is foolish. Wisdom is wisdom and it is gained through effort and hardship and inspiration from God. If you want to view ‘worldly wisdom’ in use that perfectly conforms to scripture look at Sakoieta’s description of how his clan deals with a thief. What is more correct according to the bible, the Mohawk way or the Muslim way of cutting off your hands? Or how about the “Christian” way of praying for the thief while the victim gets little or no support?
    What I see are people putting God in a box to conform to their expectations or standards.
    We American’s seem to think we only know the true enlightened way to our Lord and we can quote bible verses until we are blue in the face, but until we learn to love our neighbor like the Lord COMMANDED we are just blowing hot air. I challenge you to read some of the posts the last few days and ask yourself how would Jesus see these comments? Is he so complicated and narrow that He would look at them with the same view we do? Would he smile and shake his head and confess he still has much work to do with his followers..
    Sakoieta I hope you will not take offense and keep posting here as you have some very valuable insights to share and for those who won’t hear or can’t see – their loss. I think if Jesus came back to this earth in body form today he would go to the Indian, Muslim and every other fractured group of people we ‘followers’ try to funnel into “the correct way” or ignore. We folks who consider ourselves faithful followers would be wondering why we hadn’t thought of that. There are some good insights here but for the most part I think some need to learn to accept those with different prospectives and not claim their way is the only way. I participated in another Christian blog site that had several Muslim’s posting too. I learned much from those posts. There is much to yet learn if we are open enough to try and not be so defensive over our Lord. We are all brothers under the skin and we need to start acting that way. I’m sure some will consider these comments as a call to world religion or angry but they are not intended that way. We need to start taking a close look at just whose we are and are we doing as he would want us to do.

  24. saled says:

    It’s blueberry season in Maine, and because of all the rain that we had earlier in the summer, the fields are blue with fruit waiting to be harvested. Raking blueberries is some of the most back-breaking work known to man, and many of those that are hand raked are still harvested by Native Americans, members of the four remaining Wabanaki tribes. The Wabanakies have a story about the creation of blueberries that is similar to the story of the manna in the wilderness.

    An interesting fact about wild blueberries: if you look across a field, you can clearly see that there are different kinds(technically called clones) of blueberries that grow in patches. Some have shiny green leaves, and large, deep blue berries. Some have dull green leaves and small, blue berries. Others have light green leaves and berries that look black. I have even seen patches of white berries that were red inside. The different clones make the field healthy. Some are more resistant to certain diseases than others, some produce in drought better than others.

    The above comments about putting God in a box are right on. He is so much more than what we comprehend. I’m grateful for the little Baptist church that I grew up beside, but I’m dismayed at it’s limitations. I’ve appreciated the posts by Sakoieta and hope he continues.

  25. SFDBWV says:

    mtman. Do you believe you are a decendant of Noah?

    Do you consider yourself a Christian?

    Do you believe the Bible is the only written record from God to man?

    Do you think that Jesus is the only way to come to God?

    Jesus said straight is the way and narrow the gate. Do you disagree?

    Would you attend a church where the preacher told the congregation that the Bible was inacurate but he knew a different way to God?

    Do you defend your beliefs?

    We will all be judged by Christ, for our lives concerning Him. He will judge us, by His own warning, in the same manner whereby we judge others.

    It was Jesus Himself who threw the money lenders out of the temple. Not His disciples. It was because the money lenders had turned His Fathers house into a means of doing business and were cheating people as well.

    Bruce, Our friend Sakoieta, did not agree with most of the questions I ask you at the top of this posting. Do you think it better to say nothing and perhaps let others think that he may be right in presenting a different approach to God other than the one Christ said was the only way?

    What do you think Jesus means when he said to the church of Laodicea,” I know thy works,that thou art neither cold or hot: I would that thou wert cold or hot.So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold or hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.”?

    Of course it is found here in Revelation what Christ has to say to the churches.

    You didn’t like it because I said, I would not join in on church bashing. I won’t. If I can’t change it or fix it I will simply leave. If I have anything to say, I say it to the offender.

    Bruce you are older than I, and I am sure you have seen plenty of wrong doing in your life. I know I have. We expect it in the world, but somehow think that Christians should be different. I know I am always saddend to learn of a brother or sister who has backslid and failed to live up to the standard the world has put upon us.

    But we Christians are only human and have a perpetual need for Christ.

    When Jesus talked with the woman at the well. Did Jesus say let me learn from you our differences? No he told her there is only one way. His way.

  26. mtman says:

    Steve: The first series of your questions I don’t actually need to answer. I have been a Christian since I was 34 years of age. All I am pointing out is that there are many different forms of Christians and far more that are pretenders or fence straddlers. Many of the churches today have just the kind of preacher you describe. I heard an Episcopal Bishop state that the church no longer believed in the bible other than as a general guide. You can branch out from there to other churches and denominations that have their own belief systems.
    Isn’t remaining silent like you mention an acquiesce of heresy in these churches? I believe our bible tells us how to handle matters of this nature, and we don’t need to be defensive about it. It just needs to be done with love. Nothing will change until people who know better speak up. I contend that there are many if not lots of churches today that detract from people following Jesus instead of drawing them to Him. I couldn’t agree more with Sakoieta on that point. It is not bashing to call any church to accountability. You can state your opposition to what they do based upon scripture and if they refuse to hear, dust off your shoes and move on. Your speaking out may encourage others to do likewise. I believe you misread my comment on throwing money lenders/fakes out of the church. I said if he came back in human form today he would do the same. Only he would have more opportunity.
    As far as a different approach to God, there is only one way and I didn’t read where Sakoieta disagreed with that. He can post if my reading of his comments are correct or not. He only presented that his method is different and consistent with his native culture. I thought my example of how a thief is handled by different cultures was a good example of just who is really closer to following scripture.
    As far as the Lord telling us about the straight path and narrow gate. I am not prone to argue and will not start now but if you take folks and put them on that straight way the group will be wide. Some will be on the outside of the straight way and some dead center. All will reap the reward if they follow Jesus. Not just those in the center, but all. I don’t know how wide that body of believers would be but I did not garner the same opinions from Sakoieta’s comments as you did. Your straight path may be dead center. I’m not your typical cookie cutter Christian and believe our Lord made provision for people like myself and Sakoieta. That narrow gate may accommodate thousands or millions at a time. Those who proclaim Jesus with their lips and not accept him in their heart might find it hard to get past that gate. Does it matter if you are in the center of the path or wobble all over it as long as you get to that gate?
    In toto, I don’t believe we can discount those like the Samaritan who helped the beaten victim on the road when the more righteous went to the other side. I believe that our Lord draws us in many forms and we need to come to realize that we are all brothers/sisters under the skin. Because Sakoieta may be different and approach things different he has stated he believed the bible and believed in Jesus. I somehow missed those questions you refer to above. As some of us bob and weave along that straight path we still are headed in the same direction. As we get further along it may get straighter and maybe some of us will be lost along the way. I personally believe that our Lord made sweet provision for many of us that are different. When we get to heaven we may be surprised to find so many already there that we would never figure would get in. I don’t know how to explain my opinion any better than I just have. I find the diversity among us to be a beautiful thing and I’m glad that I’m not like so many Christians that believe you have to be a certain way or you are not Christian or less of a Christian. There is much wisdom in various cultures and I hope Sakoieta and others that are even more diverse post here to give us something to really think and talk about. Because Sakoieta and I along with many other Christians have a different approach to the way we worship our Lord it doesn’t make us less Christian.

  27. daisymarygoldr says:

    Trying to catch up with this interesting conversation while perched in between piles of boxes… Life for me has turned out to be perpetual packing and unpacking…it is a lot of work. Who said living in this sinful world is going to be easy? I for one am looking for rest— both from the oppression of hard labor and the attacks of the enemy.

    Fighting the enemy from within seems to be much easier than facing the firing from outside. The deception is so subtle that it is impossible to discern and defend… without the true wisdom of God. It is certainly no fun swinging the sword of God’s word at my own bros and paying a heavy price of standing firm against severe criticism.

    Hoping that this will help clear the air for everyone out there that is shaking their scary fists at me:) … no matter what the accusations— lack of self control and grace or an abundance of psychological self-significance and superiority, all this Aleph cares about, is to do the business of our Heavenly Father. He is the Master who has placed the burden of His yoke on me and He is the Husbandman who will judge the fruit of His love in my life!

    This dialogue with our dear friend Sakoieta, is churning out some very thoughtful thoughts from within the deep inner recesses of my mind. Extermination— whether it was at the kilns of Auschwitz or the concentration camps of the U.S. or the Jallianwallah Bagh massacre by the British in India or the carnage of Pro-Democracy revolution at the Tiananmen Square in China… mass killings of innocent people has riddled the history of every ethnic group in every century all throughout the days of human civilization.

    As God’s children, if we just step back to see the big picture through the eyes of God and consider mass killings in the light of His redemptive wisdom, all of this is nothing but a clear strategy of the enemy to prevent people from coming to Christ… all the more if these atrocities have been done in the name of Jesus.

  28. daisymarygoldr says:

    Been thinking about the response of Jesus in Luke 13 when informed about the murderous act of the ruthless Roman Government. The people expected their Messiah to show sympathy and express outrage… to render justice and mercy towards “the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices”.

    However to everyone’s chagrin, the “kind words” full of love and grace of our Lord that expressed both knowledge and self control were: “unless you repent (change your mind for the better and heartily amend your ways, with abhorrence of your sins), you will all likewise perish and be lost eternally. (Luke 13:3).

    It is all the more interesting to read the passage in Luke 4 where Jesus proclaimed Himself to be the Messiah that had come to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah: “to preach the good news to the poor; to announce release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to send forth as delivered those who are oppressed [who are downtrodden, bruised, crushed, and broken down by calamity]…”

    As expected all eyes of those seated in that Synagogue at His hometown, lighted up with eager expectation. They were relieved that this son of the local carpenter not only has the zeal to present the Word but will also not neglect the other parts… Amazed at the “gracious” words that came from his mouth, the people sat with mouths wide open to behold the mighty acts which they had heard their own boy had done in the neighboring by-lanes of Capernaum.

    Now, get ready to hear how our Redeemer lived out the Wisdom of God. He rolled up the book, gave it back and refused point blank… to show any mercy or justice and deliver those unbelieving people of Nazareth. Reason: They knew Him only as Joseph’s son. It must be noted that just prior to this in v.5 He had turned down the prestigious post of “World President” offered by the very ruler of this world!

    Jesus had full knowledge of His purpose to deliver us from our sins that lead to eternal death. In order to achieve this goal He heavily relied on the wisdom of God that enabled Him to stay on course and refused to be drawn into the wisdom of this world.

    Today the Church also has the knowledge of the Bible that states the exact purpose of our calling. It is therefore wise for us to abide in the wisdom of God and stay focused on our “job” to tell the lost world of Sakoietas about the redeeming love of God. And as wells (i.e. reservoirs) that channel His life and love we must also “remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all” (Rom 8:9)

    True, redemptive wisdom alone reveals that it is impossible to go to Heaven without forgiveness of sins offered in Jesus Christ. If people do not repent from their sins, then they will all perish. Jesus is not very kind to Pharisees and Sadducees that play the role of blind leaders who mask the truth and prevent people from getting into heaven.

    To end with some words of encouragement “What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? Who shall come forward and accuse or impeach those whom God has chosen? Who shall ever separate us from Christ’s love? (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day…I am convinced that nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love and wisdom of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord!”

  29. daisymarygoldr says:

    Correction: I meant to say: It is certainly no fun swinging the sword of God’s word at my own bros and sisters:)

    Totally agree with Frank/wretch-like-me and Steve/SFDBWV…

  30. HEY REV says:

    It must be my turn I guess. I waited/read what the others have said, and I wonder how the whole conversation would have gone if all of us who spoke, sat with Christ in the same large circle of the room. We all would have said what we did and looked toward Him for approval and comments. I believe our faces and brow would show somewhat of a “yes or no???? expression. Than again maybe not. We all have that blessing to express, and do we express.
    I sat as forman in a jury case one time and we hit on something that took most of the time. We had a hard time moving on with the case at hand, because we felt we all had something VERY IMPORTANT TO SAY. I read here the same thing. Sure we love our brothers and sisters ( I hope) and yet I sometimes have a hard time understanding how could they believe what they do. Can’t they see with their hearts. Christ would just smile at that individual give an answer on go to the next. Thats what Mart is doing, and it’s right on. Thats how we learn. Remember Joe who taught me “I’ve learned something from everyone I’ve met in life, everyone.

    I will not take the time now but end with another lesson from Joe:



    Whats the bottom line?? Do I really, love the Lord as Savior as best as I can, and be ready to answer for ALL MY ACTIONS, no matter how long I’m in this hotel, because that is the bottom line.

    My turn for my quote:


    Just read this on a wall in a building to pass on to you.

    When God measures man He puts the tape around his heart, not his head.

    God bless you all
    the rev. (and not much of that)

  31. Rick123 says:

    The greatest wisdom there is, is love. The love of the Father, the love of the Son-Jesus.

    Love died on the Cross, and shed his love for our sins. Love is stronger then death and sin, love overcame sin, satan, the world. Love was fulfilled on the Cross, for there is no greater love then the Cross. Love was lifted up so high on the Cross, that sin will never rise up again in creation. Love is the greatest, highest. Love is the only one true source, and love will never fell, for it has always been present. Where love is, there is life, and where no love is, there is no life. God is LOVE.

  32. Rick123 says:

    SFDBWV: Where is that in the bible>>>Three.By His own power he was brought back to life, the resurection. To be the first and show us His power, proof of all he had said.

    I know that Jesus said, Mat 26:61…I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days. Jhn 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

    Did Jesus destroy his temple(body) which belonged to his Father? What is written: Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD(The Father) to bruise him;(Jesus) he(The Father) hath put him(Jesus) to grief: when thou(The Father) shalt make his(Jesus) soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    Did Jesus build it in three days? or was the owner(The Father) of that temple(body) that build it in three days? What is written: Rom 6:4…that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory(power) of the Father…Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys(power) of hell and of death.

    Christ has the keys(power) given to him by his Father, to rise up the dead in him at the “last day”=last trump=seventh trump: Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.(Jhn 17:2)

  33. Dixie says:

    5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

    Mart, although I understand the idea that other religions have their own pearls of wisdom, but does not our Lord tell us not to throw ours to the swine. I feel by saying that God’s wisdom outside of redemption is equal to the wisdom of the world is doing just that. I have been there, done that, and bottom line is, although these wise sayings from other sources have a note of truth to them, they are touchy feeling for a moment, but never sink in. It it only through in indwelling of the Spirit that truth becomes alive and has power and strength. You can’t get this through other religions – the Power of the Word. Thanks. Dixie

  34. SFDBWV says:

    Rick, Romans 8:29 “, That He might be the firstborn of many brothern.”
    Romans 10:18 ” No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to take it again. This commandment have I recieved of my Father.”
    1 Corinthians 6:14 ” And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by His own power.”

    I can copy out the whole of scripture for you Rick. But I suggest you read the Book of John, again.

    mtman, A few topics ago we talked about hearing but not listening. I guess that must be what we have here. People tend to see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. Reguardless of what is there or what is said.

    Daisy, you are so very right, the attacks from the enemy is exhausting.

  35. Sakoieta says:

    SFDBWV, This is where I again have difficulty with these discussions, especially when people are singled out as targets. I am feeling as if you have also done that with me. That is fine But I must object then to the manner in which you are doing it. I do not believe you are really taking the time to read my posts. An example is your statement of what you believe that I believe…

    “Bruce, Our friend Sakoieta, did not agree with most of the questions I ask you at the top of this posting. Do you think it better to say nothing and perhaps let others think that he may be right in presenting a different approach to God other than the one Christ said was the only way?”

    You have asked questions above some of which have not been directly asked of me. Then you have put forth the above statement as if I were given the opportunity to answer these questions. That is not so and it is not true. I encounter this quite often from ministers who are on a path to totally denounce me and proclaim me a devil in disguise. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have also worked with many clergy who totally accepted my system of thought and belief. The story you are trying to weave in my regards is false. This to me hurts the integrity you are trying to build here. Please, I ask respecfully, do not put words in my mouth and do not do that. Also I asked you some questions about choice. Yet you refuse to answer and only bring out more questions of your own.

    I am going to ask you again, which church do you attend and why? Also I am now going to ask another question if I may. Which Bible do you choose to read from? King James version, New Life Testament, New American Standard, Book of Mormon, New International version, Good New for Modern Man, plus many others that are out there and why do you choose your version?

    I also struggle with this comment…. ”

    It is therefore wise for us to abide in the wisdom of God and stay focused on our “job” to tell the lost world of Sakoietas about the redeeming love of God.”

    daisymarygodlr. I am not lost, please reread my posts. I found my way to a relationship with the Creator that I had lost by trying to get wrapped up in the European style of doing church. Our people have been the recipients of a European style of missionizing that does not fit. As Mohawks we also have a Great Commission. It states, “White roots, from the Great Tree of Peace, have gone out to the four corners of the earth. Should any man or any nation so desiring of living at peace decide to trace the roots back to the base of the Tree of Peace, we will join hands with them and welcome them in peace, mutual respect and friendship.” Our commission was not one of force but of acceptance.

    Here’s a humorous little piece. A while back I was flipping through the channels on TV and came across and African American minister preaching. He stated, “There are two types of people I will not do business with. Doyou know what they are?” No one respeonded. ” Family and Christians. Family because they expect you to do everything for nothing or give them deals you would not give anybody else you do business with. Christians because most of the time they are so heavenly minded they are no longer and earthly good. They cannot discipline themselves to tell people about the gospel at coffee breaks, lunch breaks, or after work hours. They use up valuable time they are getting paid for, to preach rather than do the work they were hired for. They are not good workers. What are we showing to the world when we do this?”

    I laughed at how he, a minsiter of God, condemned the antics of many of his own.

    I am asking people, if you are going to claim I said something please be accurate, if you can’t then at least give me the benefit of the doubt.

  36. Sakoieta says:

    SFDBWV, I think you said this quite accurately to MtMan. He has accurately shared things I have put forth here, you have not.

    SFDBWV, I would ask, respectfully that you also re read it….”mtman a few topics ago we talked about hearing but not listening. I guess that must be what we have here. People tend to see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. Reguardless of what is there or what is said.”

    I have you asked you two questions and I would appreciate an answer.

    I think things have gone off topic and have entered the realm of proselytizing again. Those are just my thoughts.

  37. SFDBWV says:

    Sakoieta, thank you for returning. So as not to have misinformation, I will ask you the same questions.

    Do you consider yourself to be a Christian?

    Do you believe you are a decendant of Noah?

    Do you believe that the Bible is the only written word of God?

    Do you believe that only through belief in and trust in Jesus of Nazareth, can we have fellowship with God?

    Do you believe that Jesus died for the redemtion of all mankind?

    It was in the course of conversations that I read whereas you disagreed with my beliefs in these areas. If I am wrong I appologize for misunderstanding you, and misrepresenting your position as well.

    But everything I have said about my beliefs, is exactly as I see it.

    When I attend church services I attend The Church of God. I have a King James and Living Bible. Also a Strong’s exhaustive Concordance as well as other study aids. I also possess the Holy Spirit, who ( if I listen ) will lead me into all truths.

  38. Sakoieta says:

    Reading back a few posts, I think there is a big difference in what we call the wisdom of the world and the wisdom that God put into the Created order when he created things and said it is good. The church often gets confused in this matter. I try very hard to stay away from the messages that the dominant society puts forth. That to me is and through my experiences with it has shown itself to be foolishness of man. Natural wisdom which points to the gifts of a loving Creator are a totally different thing. When people are stressed, why is they often talk about taking a vacation and then talk about going into the natural realm. I believe God has put it into our minds and hearts that when we need rest we can rest beside cool waters and replenish our souls. Nature has a way of showing forth the handiwork of it’s Creator in a manner that I do not believe the church fully has understood. Why are all the family Bible camps and summer camps in the woods or in the natural world? The church will accept that but when we talk about it as Indians, we are accused of worshipping creation or looking to the wisdom of the world. There is no fairness or integrity in those judgements that are brought against us.

    I remember speaking once in a church and before I went to speak I was advised by the Pastor not to go past 12:00, since most families that day had their dinners planned so they would be done with dinner in time for the afternoon football game. Then a friend of mine took a Sunday ff to go fishing in his favorite spot. He had a stressful week and felt the need to rejuvinate. Yet later, he was admonished by the Pastor for doing so. Which of these two was the more appropriate one finishing a sermon so the worldly world of football could take presidence or being rejuvinated by spending time in the Creators natural world fishing?

  39. Sakoieta says:

    Do you consider yourself to be a Christian?

    Do you believe you are a decendant of Noah?

    Steve. Thank you for answering. I ask would you attend services at any of the churches mentioned, other than the one you have chosen?

    Now I will answer your questions.
    Do you believe that the Bible is the only written word of God? Yes I do, but as I said before I do not believe the Bible contains all of God’s word. It is not the exhaustive word of God.

    Do you believe that only through belief in and trust in Jesus of Nazareth, can we have fellowship with God?

    Yes and No. Cornelius was a man (Acts 10) who was found to be worthy of God, who practiced his faith in God, yet he was not a Christian. God upheld his faith and belief. I believe people can be very Godly in their life and living for God without being Christian. I believe Jesus came to do his resurrective work to reconnect us with God. I believe that God spoke to all peoples of the world and gave them a piece of his heart so they would seek him. The Biblical scripture confirms this. I believe there are many of our people who are now in the lands of heaven who never knew the Jesus you talk about, but they did have revelation of a Creator. To believe any less is to state that all Indian people who died before the church brought a Bible here, are in hell. I don’t believe that for one moment do you? I also believe that our people who were ripped from their homes, in Jesus name, who were burned to death in Jesus name, who were murdered and killed in Jesus name, who then returned to worshipping God as God had revealed himself and rejected the Jesus the church brought to them, are in heaven as well.

    Do you believe that Jesus died for the redemtion of all mankind? No problem with that at all.

    Now let me ask you a question? You stated earlier you were Native American by birth and Christian by choice. How much of your cultural teachings do you know, or are you one of those who was brainwashed into believing that anything Indian or cultural is of the devil? I ask this only so I can get a better picture of the geography that your path has travelled over.

  40. Sakoieta says:

    oops sorry, I forgot to answer the first two questions.

    Do you consider yourself to be a Christian? Yes but not as the Euro-American-Canadian church dictates.

    Do you believe you are a decendant of Noah? I could be. I don’t know. I don’t think it really matters. Does that mean I am any less Mohawk? I also know that the Bible has not been written within the context of North America. I do believe that I was created from where I was supposed to be and that we have stories that you do not know about because you are not willing to hear or learn. You present your understanding of God as this fishbowl you live in is the totality of truth and wisdom. I am saying look outside the fishbowl and you will see there is truth there also. Peter found that when he encountered Cornelius. Has not God been active throught out all the world since it’s creation? I believe so and have stories to verify that. Where are yours? Let me ask you the Bible says, “Jesus wept”. How do we know. Who all saw it? Why did he weep? There are so many other people’s experience at seeing Jesus weep that are not included in the Bible, yet I believe you would ascertain that it is only important that Jesus wept and don’t ask about any other part of the story to do so is heresy or not really believing in the Bible. The Bible also tells me today if I drive around the Reservation and see someone working I have the right to smite him and kill him for working on the Sabbath. Yet if I do the Bible also says if I kill I also shall be killed. I think the Bible has to be used with the wisdom of God gave us to think appropriately rather than just read literally and followed in the same manner or am I using the wisdom of the world to do that?

  41. Sakoieta says:

    Just noticed another difference. Mart has posted a picture of an Owl at the top of this. It is a Horned Owl I believe. To some people the owl is the symbol of wisdom and knowledge. European culture presents it as thus. Let us say that as an example, early missionaries come to the Indian people and as part of their missionizing they present the owl as representing God’s wisdom. No one accepts their message. No one converts. They shake the dust off their feet and leave pronouncing the Indians sons of the devil who should be destroyed. Years later missionaries run into the Indians and this time take the time to ask why no one converted or why their message was rejected. The Indians say we are a people who follow the one you call God. Your people came to us trying to make us accept an owl as a messenger of God’s wisdom. To us it is a messenger of misfortune, death and evil. That is why we could not accept the message. Now if you will listen to us we will share with you a bird, the Eagle, who carries down the blessings of the Creator to us each and every day. That is why we use eagle feathers in our regalia. As Christians you would be most apt to say wow, we have common ground here. To you the Eagle is the mediator between you and the Creator. In our beliefs in the writings of the book of John it tells us about how the Creator took on physical form and came here to firmly remake the bridge between us and the Creator. He did that through further identifying who the eagle was. How many of you reading know that the first four gospels of the New testament have symbols to represent them? The symbol for the book of John the deity of Jesus is the EAGLE. This is how common ground could have been reached instead of the arrogance we receive that says we are wrong in our beliefs or lost.

  42. diamonds says:

    One of the things I think we as Christ-followers need to do is to imitate God….”while we were yet sinners,” Chist died for us.” In other words, relationship is established first. He didn’t wait until we had it together to make provision for us. When Christ was here, He didn’t go around making people a project. Have you noticed how He always took the time to establish a relationship first? I listened to you, Sakoieta, and never once did I hear you say you weren’t a believer in Christ for your salvation. I believe you were offended because of the timing of the question, “Are you a Christian?” I believe you were offended because of the assumptions/presumptions that were made on this blog. I also believe that some people did not take the time to read your posts thoroughly. We could all (myself included) do well if we would listen with our hearts and not be so quick to condemn/judge. “For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection (of reality as in a riddle or enigma), but then (when perfection comes) we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood by God.” Just because we know three scriptures and a prayer doesn’t mean we have God all figured out. Let’s humble ourselves before the one who understands it all, who knows it all, who created it all.

  43. Loretta Beavis says:

    Uh, what does “proselyte” mean? And how does it function? Could I hear multiple responses, please? I looked in my elderly Webster’s again and found:

    “A person who has converted from one religion to another, or from one belief, sect, party, etc. to another. -lyting 1. to try to convert (a person) to one’s religion 2. to persuade to do or join something, esp. by offering an inducement.”

    I have free will; there is spiritual warfare. what is proselytizing in relationship to these?

    Matthew 7:15-20 about behavior and belief ends with Jesus saying (20) “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” So I had to learn what the “fruit” was all about. I don’t have any shame about Jesus or what God has done for me. But I now trust God with my future. My parents told me they were Catholic, but we rarely went to “church.” The church is the people, not a building. I can say I go to “church” or I go to “worship” services, it doesn’t matter any more. For the last three years I attended five local denominations. I’ve attended many in 40 years). It takes months to get to know people, the pastor (preacher, minister, priest, leader-pick one) and know the “fruit” and for them to judge my “fruit”. I still go to these “churches” occasionally, as I said, for services or events because I care about the people I met there and I enjoy their company. Some “churches” invite you to “join” some have a “program” to induce joining … some don’t do any of that.

    But I do inspect the “fruit” of the leadership to know if they teach that Jesus Christ as my personal savior is the only “way” and that God, Jesus, Holy Spirit are one. Christ told Peter if he loved Jesus, to feed His sheep. It’s the same today.

    The second thing that is VERY important to me is a thing labeled “altar call.” (I call it alter call :) ) I expect the “pastor” to INVITE anyone who wants to accept Christ as Savior, (or needs prayer) at some point (usually the end..) of the worship service or Bible study or whatever. When an individual goes to “church” they go there to meet God, every time … yes or no? among other secondary things. This is a spiritual battleground. It’s not about that pastor inducing people or one person to accept Christ as Savior. It’s spiritual activity between the person and the Creator. A leader doesn’t always know who that is. The truthful teaching and altar call is faithfulness to feed the sheep.

    I think I posted, in the past, at a church I attended for six years, I matured a lot at, I even helped in the after altar call ministry and other ministries … I was going back to my old sinful behavior … with another member of that church; I wasn’t able to resist on my own! One service I “planned” to go up for the altar call … big church, lots of people get “saved.” At the invitation, what happened? Silence, NOBODY MOVED. My blood pressure shot up, the enemy wanted to scare me away from my Jesus by isolating me publicly… I somehow went up because I knew it was spiritual warfare and Satan wanted me back, by my own free will. I was the only one there, I didn’t have to confess my sin openly. I got on my knees! They told me to stand up. There was forgiveness at the cross, not humiliation.

    I say what I say here because I know I can’t persuade anyone to accept Christ as their Savior. Nobody did with me. I accepted Christ a long time ago, by a high school classmate. It was a simple, sweet moment. I think I posted previously I didn’t grow spiritually … her “church” service scared me, the whole group spent a lot of the service praying in the spirit. But I can tell you here (without unnecessary detail) what God has done for me, the truth. I was so foolish, but I couldn’t do anything to save myself from my foolishness. I didn’t convert from religion A to B. Looking back, I was my own triune god – me, myself and I, because of fear, living in my own patchwork of wisdom, expecting to get through the gates of Heaven by going around Christ.

    Worldy wisdom gets it’s cue from the Creator. But worldly wisdom comes second to the wisdom of the cross. Counterfeit Christianity, like counterfeit money, is good for a while. You can use it, it doesn’t really hurt anyone; others can gain more from it too, you think you can get away with it, it’s so real. I have a civil war era money with a horse picture on it that I like. It wouldn’t work at the store today. Counterfeit money, in time, is discovered and rejected by the ones who “create” real money, no matter how real it appears to be.

    I desperately want the “real thing” for all of us, but it is a free will choice for all of us. In person, I say the same things these days, but I get warm, sweaty, excited, scared and frustrated when, at times, I’m received as sort of goofy. Most often, tears come down my face, I don’t know why I can’t stop them. Crying is supposed to be a “sign” of a point of helplessness.

    My input on which Bible I read is: 1. KJ because the one I have has lexical aids to old and new testament in the back and a Hebrew and Chaldee dictionary to look at where words differ in translation or breadth of definition (like “love”). The KJ translation often uses English words that are very pungent in today’s speech! Really gets my spirit stimulated. 2. King James on a regular basis. Both have a column with alternate references. None after that for me.

    My friend has a “bible” about six inches thick. It is a “bIble” and the Book of Mormon bound together. I have the B.O.M and read it and all the associated literature (I asked the missionaries for it) and somewhere I have a Catholic “bible” and the associated literature “catechism, etc.”

    My Jehovah’s Witness (I’m trying to be friends) won’t let me see her bible or get me a copy …

    What is significant to me is whom and how and from what source (s) was a bible translated and edited. It is usually in the front of a Bible, or not.

    So there’s more of my fruit basket, open for inspection; sometimes some of the fruits starts to ferment and have to go! God’s love is super-natural!

    I love my Jesus, my Savior, The Way, The Truth and the Light

  44. mtman says:

    That story of the owl and eagle is priceless and contains much wisdom. Thank you for posting it because it should get many to think and reconsider prior conceptions or misconceptions. Your goldfish bowl example also has great wisdom behind it and you make your point extremely well. It takes God right out of the box that many of us have put him into for convenience sake. Your rendition of where people mostly go (nature) to recharge their batteries is equally of value and one I personally can relate to.
    As I have posted before, wisdom is wisdom and it just doesn’t appear out of no where suddenly. It all comes from our Heavenly Father. Doesn’t labeling it earthly and heavenly put wisdom into a box too? Isn’t God’s creation capable of displaying wisdom? Doesn’t that diminish some wisdom and not other wisdom? Isn’t this a way of putting the wisdom you have expressed into a category and therefore diminishing its value? I think so and thank you for your excellent posts. You need not reply because I think the answers are already clear to most.
    I live in the mountains and am pretty isolated. We have animals for company and I have learned much from my natural surroundings. From that learning comes natural wisdom. To deny God inspired it would be like denying my own existence. I have previously posted of a doe we named Daisy, who has taught me much about life in general over the years. To most that would appear foolish but what I have learned from her is extremely valuable.
    Please keep posting as there is much wisdom and learning in what you have said.

  45. foreverblessed says:

    Is wisdom found elswhere?
    Afcourse there is.
    But does it fill the need in our souls?
    I was very impressed with the writings of Sadu Sundar Singh.
    An Indian Brahman, he was raised to be a sadu. And had to read all the wisdom of the Brahmans. Wise sayings.
    But, as he wrote, his heart began to ache, he had pain in his heart.
    And, so he believed, when your stomach aches, you need food. But when your heart aches, you need God, who made you.
    But all the sayings and wisdom he had in hs reach did not heal his soul.
    Then he started to cry out to God: If you made me, you can fill my heart.

    He was realy desparate, and then what happened:
    His room was filled with light, Jesus appeared to him,, and said to him: I am the one who died for your sins. In Me you can have Life Everlasting.
    And so he was called, just as was Saul in Acts.

    So there are wise sayings, but what fills your heart: It is Jesus.

    He went to preach the gospel in all of the world, he went to China, the people there would say: We have Confusius. He would answer: His sayings are all right, but they cannot fill the emptiness that is in your hearts, only Jesus can.

    But not to say that the wisdom that we can find elsewhere is not to be noticed.

  46. Loretta Beavis says:

    I got to go to church today. There was a missions trip of six area churches who were able to present a short video. The scripture in the video was Romans 10:14-15. (NKJ) The teaching was Luke 4:14-21. It’s a non-denominational Christian church. It was grreat!

    Anyway, Been Thinking blog is an exciting place to visit. I’m blessed by all who post on this blog, Christian or not, doesn’t matter. We all need each other. I grow from the fellowship and tenderness many have for others; … testing, judging (behavior, not salvation), the wisdom(s), the challenges, the self-evaluation, examining perspectives; the courage to answer Jesus’ question: “WHO DO YOU SAY I AM?”

    God bless RBC Ministries.

    Romans 10:10-11: “For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, ‘Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.’ ” (NKJ)

  47. foreverblessed says:

    I want to way one more thing: Mart wrote this for students who go to college. Just to tell them, do not be afraid of all you hear. Wisdom to be gathered.
    I studied biology, and many times, I was asked by christians, you have to study evelution as well, can you do that as Christian? I never was alarmed by the evolution classes. It was very good to follw them. The professor was very open minded in his classes, he would say: Evolution is only a theory. No man was around when the earth began.
    And when he was going through the history of the fossiles, he pointed out the empty spaces that was found between one era and the other.
    Nothing to be afraid of, only when you believe that the earth is 6000 years old, you are in trouble.
    Because the earth is much older.
    Is that wisdom?
    It is only wise to say that we do not know everything.
    Christians have found Christ, the way to God.
    But we do not exacty know how the erath was formed, and how life came about.

  48. poohpity says:

    Mart stated on “Better than Gold”, What is called for is the kind of wise heart that James describes in every area of our brokenness. It is the kind of wisdom that requires us to ask God’s help– by inviting the Spirit of Jesus to help us listen to the motives of our own heart…to listen to the words and hearts of one another, and to listen even more carefully to the words and heart of our God– before jumping to our ready made conclusions…

    After coming back from the cool pines and nature I thought the jumping to conclusions may have come to rest. The world can not contain the Wisdom of God nor will God allow us to know it all. The bible can not contain all there is to know about God because God is to big for the pages, it is what has been given us to learn about Him and to have a basis or foundation for His principles, instructions, and a portion of wisdom. It is not exhaustive it is foundational. It is the beginning of the knowledge of God, is there more to learn, oh yes, always. Are all people of the world given a component, yes.

    When children refuse to listen to their parents and start bossing them around then the parent has to draw a boundary. Like the folks who decided to build a tower to the heavens to make a name for themselves and at that time the Lord had to take charge and confuse their language to protect them from themselves and their pride. Like Adam and Eve wanting to be like God through the knowledge of good and evil. To say that anyone has an exhaustive knowledge of God and how He does stuff is prideful however to not listen to the wisdom that God has given to all peoples denies the very reason God choose to separate the different peoples of the world at Babylonia and the tower of Babel. If being a people of the same language would cause us to think of ourselves to be sufficient and independent of God then the relationship God wanted with each of us and dependence on Him rather than ourselves would be shattered.

    The basis for any wisdom is God and only He is omniscient. When we do not use the gift of two ears and only one mouth then we miss the many lessons that lay before us. Wisdom is all around us in everything and in everybody even those that we may believe have nothing to offer yet then there is wisdom to be found. Even in little children their naivety has so much wisdom because their hearts are pure and they are open to learning which as adults we tend to put up walls to growth by our prejudices(is pre judging before all the facts are known).

  49. daisymarygoldr says:

    Sakoieta , I’m really glad you decided to stay and continue with our conversation on Wisdom. If you think that in tracing back to your roots you are not lost then good for you!

    As for me, every time, I trace back to my roots it only leads me to discover that without Jesus Christ I am but a poor and wretched sinner, desperately lost and dead with no hope of having a relationship with Creator God.

    Hence in my situation accepting Christ- the Redemptive wisdom alone enables me to Love God and to love wise people like you! Keep posting…

  50. wretch-like-me says:

    Sakoieta: I have enjoyed your perspectives as well as the opinions of others share at this site… I stress the word ‘opinion’ since each of us shares their understanding of words, stories, even biblical passages.

    It is quite a serious thing to base your ‘salvation’ on a set of rules or concepts. None of us should take it lightly. We are talking about eternity, here!!!

    The Love I feel from Christ toward each of you makes me extremely concerned for your eternity and the understanding I have is that each of us will answer for our individual actions and actions come from our true convictions.

    I do wish to clarify a couple of statements made from Sakoieta:
    “Do you believe you are a descendant of Noah? I could be. I don’t know…”
    This question was asked to determine if you support or deny a biblical story that all of creation was wiped out by the global flood…except for Noah and his family. They survived the flood because God spared them and from them the world was re-populated. (If you believe the bible, you believe Noah to be your ancestor)

    “The Bible also tells me today if I drive around the Reservation and see someone working I have the right to smite him and kill him for working on the Sabbath. Yet if I do the Bible also says if I kill I also shall be killed…”
    Actually, the bible says just the opposite… It was Jesus, Himself, Who clarified the difference between God’s Word and the Rabbinic Laws which reduce ‘heart knowledge’ to mindless ritual and tradition.

    Frankly, I am surprized you didnt grasp that since you seem to have a good handle on other more difficult passages. (but, then, we all make mistakes.)

    Here’s one for ForeverBlessed:
    “Nothing to be afraid of, only when you believe that the earth is 6000 years old, you are in trouble.
    Because the earth is much older.”

    Are you saying the earth is or is not much older?

    Beware of what seems to be scientific fact. Rule One in science is to be able to prove your theory by experiment and observation. No one is around who observed the earth being created and looked at the calendar to mark the date. (Except of course the Creator and I believe we have His Word on it??)

    Creation Science Institute reported after Mt. Saint Helen erupted in May 1980 that what geologists and scientists had taken as fact would have to be re written… previously they believed what takes millions of years to happen (sedimentation layers of rock) had been observed to have taken place in only 6 days of eruption.
    It hasnt shown up in any textbooks, yet, either and that’s been nearly 30 years past.

    People, we all resist information that is contrary to what we have come to accept at fact. It is very basic to our ‘nature’ which as we know from scripture is ‘flawed’.

    BTW. I own many different translations(too numerous to list). I have my favorites including the Message and the NASB. I worship at every chance I get whether in a church bldg, a car, a cemetery, or hiking thru the woods. I learned quite some time ago that the only important label to acquire is ‘saved by the blood of Jesus’. If we can agree on that, we are ‘kin in Christ’.


  51. foreverblessed says:

    About the earth being much older then 6000 years?
    This is way of thread, but maybe there will be a new topic today, so yes, I’ll give my answer to that.

    But first let me ask you a question, is it a problem to you that the earth could be older then 6000 years? What passage in the bible makes you think it should be 6000 years?

    Is God not the omnipotent God who knows it all, who created it all, when the earth is much older?
    Is Jesus not our Saviour when the earth was around here much longer?

    Because this is a topic that can get too furious. And I do not like that. Lets be calm about it.
    I just wanted to say, we were not around, we do not know everything. And it is wise to know that we do not know everything. And some things are not worthy to fight about.
    But neither should we close our eyes to scientific facts. This is about wisdom, how to interpret these facts.
    Evolution is used to say: See, there is life on earth and it was there without a God. It wants to prove there is no God.
    But, as I was saying in my former post, the gaps between era’s are too big. Evolution is what it is, a theory. Too many gaps.\And besides, if you want to leave God out of Creation, how come there was a Big Bang in the beginning, when there was nothing?
    How can something evolve out of nothing?
    It contradicts the scientific laws of energy.
    So science that wants to leave out God, an Origin, is full of contradictions.

    It reminds of the time when Copernicus said that the earth was not the centre of the Universe.
    For some reason that was not considered possible.

    I was in Dublin, Ireland, 2 years ago, and here was an exposition Leonardo Da Vinci ,of all the pages of his notebook. It is owned by Bill Gates.
    It was really interesting, because Da Vinci found fossiles of fish way high in the mountains of Italy.
    And that just was a puzzle to him. A big puzzle.
    How can fossiles be found so high in the mountains?
    Now, do not say: this was laid there during the flood. Because then all species must be laid down together, all sorts at the same time, mingled. But they aren’t laid down like that. They are all in different layers.
    But, as I was saying, we do not have to be alarmed by that, it does not prove that they appeared there by coincidence.

    Jesus is our Saviour. He is the Word, who was with God, and Who created everything.
    John 1:1-5
    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
    3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
    And because He is the Creator of everything He is the One able te redeem everything by His Blood:
    Colossians 1:15-20
    15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

    So pelase, do not be alarmed.

    And I wanted to say that the study of Biology is a beautiful study, everytime you see more of nature you are in awe of how wonderfully it is made. And how well planned, and how ingenious.
    How can anyone say it all happened by coincidence?
    It is like going into the forest, and you hear the birds, and see the trees.

    Well, this was an epistle, I do not want to alarm anyone.
    WML, I liked very much what you wrote, your ols ways, and how you are now changed bij Christ.
    I was raised in a christian church, and was always a brave girl. No mayor moral sins.
    But that does not make me a saint either, you can be just miserable in your soul. And that void can only be filled by Christ, and that is what I found.
    I want to be part of Christ, and part of the Body of Christ. And that is what I am. Denomination does not count.
    Stay to your Faith in Christ.
    And lets be calm about things, and facts.

  52. foreverblessed says:

    Wrong translation: A brave girl: but I meant to say: A good girl, a respectable girl. In dutch it says: een braaf meisje.
    Sorry for my long story, it is not well written, but posting here hopefully does improve writing skills.

  53. SFDBWV says:

    Sakoieta, my home is filled with Christian reminders. It is also filled with American Indian reminders as well.

    We love the stories and heritage of Indian history.

    I also love the stories and testimonies of Christ throughout history.

    I believe we are all brothers. That we all share a common ancestery that starts with Adam and for now ends wih the fully populated world we know of today.

    With many people of many customs and cultures.

    At the Tower of Babel, we read that God forced the emerging post flood people to seperate and spread into all the world. He divided their language so as to force them to do so. They, each language group, took with them the stories of creation and of what knowledge of God they knew with them.

    The history of Christianity in the world is both glorious and hideious.

    We should remember the ugly side of history so we do not repeat it’s mistakes. But as Mart eluded to in his statements above, we need not make history a burden we need to continue to carry.

    I extend my hand to you Sakoieta, in friendship and brotherhood through Jesus Christ. I do not wish for our differences to become a division.

    I have misled you into thinking I am a full blooded Indian. I am not. I appologize for my misleading remarks. Though I do have the blood of American Indian in my family line. To me if I take DNA to it’s conclusion, we are all brothers, all descendants of one common ancestor.


  54. mtman says:

    Interesting where this is going and the side roads. I took a geology course in college and recall the prof. saying that if someone claimed the earth was formed one billion years ago to let them have it because no one knows for sure and it can’t be proven anyway. Not worth the time and breath/type it takes to discuss it.
    He also used to go to the diamond mines of Ala. each summer to hunt for diamonds. Mostly industrial grade but he was present one year when a little girl found a large gen quality diamond. She asked her dad if it was real and he said hit it on that rock and see. It shattered into diamond dust and went from gem quality to a few cents worth of diamond dust. Isn’t that what we can do with our Lord too? Put him into our parameters and not encompass all of who He really is or what He teaches us. We filter His instructions through our filter so we can handle the limited scope of our Lord. In doing so we take a quality gem and turn it into a few cents worth of diamond dust. We limit Him so we can deal with Him on our terms. I personally think that Sakoieta has posted things that should get us to open our minds a little. We don’t have to all agree completely but we should see there are things beyond our borders that have great value. He has given us a gem quality diamond and we shouldn’t turn it to diamond dust.
    I think we do the same with other subjects like wisdom as well. We call it earthly or worldly wisdom -vs- Godly wisdom. Really if we think about it, isn’t wisdom just wisdom? Why do we classify it. In doing so we reduce it to a few cents worth of diamond dust. Why accept the few cents worth when we can own the bank?

  55. foreverblessed says:

    Sakoieta has made a point here:
    Do justice to the Indian people in North America for all the injustice that has been done to them.
    You can talk the talk, but also walk the walk. Do what you preach.
    Isn’t that a wise thing to do, a very christian way of handling things: Clear the past.
    The christian community could ask the Government to compensate the Indian community.
    If a former presidency has done that in a some sort of way, it could be done again.

  56. chfranke says:

    I believe you got rich and a new level of understanding from responses to your initial post. Sakoieta, I’ve read and followed your posts closely and admire you for contributing all that you have. Whether “Christian” or not, you are a wise and masterful teacher. I have been enriched by your posts especially. And I appreciate the open and mature dialog that has occurred. As a Christian I know that you know we state firmly that Christ is the only way to God, and I trust that God will work that out with you in His time. We welcome your posts here anytime and hope you will not see any our replies as trying to missionize you, but rather a process of enlightening each other.
    Onen ki wahi (So long until later)

  57. Sakoieta says:

    Here also is a difference in our belief systems. As Indian people we believe and teach that we are a good creation of the Creator. He has said so who are we to say we are different. He says He loves us and will not forsake us. He also promises that He is not far from any one of us if we will just seek Him. I do not believe as a human being we are these vile, wicked, sinners, incapable of comminicating with God. How then can I reaffirm my worth or teach my children their worth as a human being if I continually reaffirm they are these vile, wicked, people? We are and become what we what we tell ourselves and teach to others. I cannot agree with this statement as it is put forth…

    “As for me, every time, I trace back to my roots it only leads me to discover that without Jesus Christ I am but a poor and wretched sinner, desperately lost and dead with no hope of having a relationship with Creator God.”

    We believe, as Mohawks, that we were created by a loving Creator and that we are essentially good, but not created perfect, so we need that communication and relationship with the Creator as He has revealed Himself to us to help us to continue to strive to honor His created works in us as His children. That is what we reaffirm.

    rwetch-like-me says…”“Do you believe you are a descendant of Noah? I could be. I don’t know…”
    This question was asked to determine if you support or deny a biblical story that all of creation was wiped out by the global flood…except for Noah and his family. They survived the flood because God spared them and from them the world was re-populated. (If you believe the bible, you believe Noah to be your ancestor)

    “The Bible also tells me today if I drive around the Reservation and see someone working I have the right to smite him and kill him for working on the Sabbath. Yet if I do the Bible also says if I kill I also shall be killed…”
    Actually, the bible says just the opposite… It was Jesus, Himself, Who clarified the difference between God’s Word and the Rabbinic Laws which reduce ‘heart knowledge’ to mindless ritual and tradition.

    My response was basically to reaffirm what can happen when people say the Bible literally says it, I believe it. I am fully aware of what Jesus had to say about this. In the Old testament passages of Law, Jesus is not mentioned. I was doing a literal sharing of what the passage had to say and I am correct in saying that. You have added a New Testament understanding to my statement if when read, as I put it forward in my statement it was not meant to be included. Again please read what I wrote as I wrote it. If you have to judge it only judge it on whether what I wrote in black and white print is accurate as I wrote it.

    As Mohawk people we also have stories of the flood and how people survived. You forget much of the Bible was written using the cultural and geographical context of the Middle east and the region of those tribal groups. We believe as Native Americans there are also stories of our relationship with God that need to be told from our histories with what happened over here on this continent. You remember, if you know European history, this continent was thought of as a dark continent, until European exploration opened it up and found there were actually people living here and no they did come come facross form the Bering Strait. In fact the foot prints went the other way. We have stories in our culture of the flood.

    Here is something I want to put forward. I have been brought up and raised in both beliefs, the church and the Mohawk. I am asking those of you who have not studied Mohawk belief or history of our beliefs, to at least give me the benefit of the doubt that if I put a thought forward that differs from yours, please accept that there may be one of our teachings as Mohawks that supports what I am saying and why I say it. There is a system of belief that is too immense to relay all of it here. All I can say is that in my life. I have examined the church and the Mohawk way of life and as a man I chose to walk through this life, as I was created to be, as a Mohawk. I have a bi-cultural understanding of histories and traditions to be able to look at the Biblical accounts and see what is taught and also to look at the Mohawk oral traditions and see how, for the most part they do not disagree but further explain what happened in the creation process. If you cannot give me the benefit of the doubt as to my faith and my belief, and want to pick at each little morsel of my belief, like wretch-like-me seems to want to do, that is not fair. I came to share my thoughts. Not to be treated as if I have to defend everything while you people in your Christian piety and arrogance assume you have the truth and I have to explain until I measure up to your standrds. I will not defend my faith. I tell my people the same, unless you have read and studied the Bible, don’t condemn it.

    I am sure if I wanted to pick at you or your lives I could find just as much in your everyday life and living where I could say you do not even follow your own self-declared belief. So I give you all the benefit of the doubt that you are Christians who practice your faith as good as you can do and that your faith is practiced as you believe the Creator revealed it to you to do so. So let’s get back to where is wisdom found and what is wisdom . Please?

  58. foreverblessed says:

    To mtman:
    Mart wrote:

    So it is very good to clarify things a little, it is not at all smashing a gem.
    And he was writing this originally for students, and that is very good.
    You are now almost 90, so you have seen a lot, you have been around, have a lot of wisdom and so you can write what you wrote.
    But to young people, and the not so wise yet, it is wise to clacify.

    For instance, when a student considers to study biological or geological science it is sensible to think about how old the earth is. Not everything is found in the bible, and if sometimes the facts seem to contradict the bible, maybe it is good to reconsider how we interpreted the bible.

    The earth was not the centre of the universe, neither was it flat. It seems trivious now, but then, 500 years ago, it was a big issue. You could not say publically that you thought the earth was round.
    I am very glad that the Catholic Church did reinstate Galileo, and maybe even Copernicus, (I do not know for sure). When you go to the Vaticane nowadays you can find letters written by Galileo, that is copies of it, in the book shop.
    Make clear of past mistakes.
    And that’s what they did.

  59. foreverblessed says:

    What Mart wrote is lost, the last note he mentioned: that this post was originally written for students,
    that not all the wisdom is found in the bible,
    and that often christians are not very wise, as even Jesus said.

  60. cherielyn says:

    I was raised in a plymouth Brethren chapel – very rigid and legalistic. When I became an adult I attended Baptist churches and still do.

    When someone asks me what “religion” I am, I tell them that I don’t believe in religion. I am a born-again Christian and attend a Baptist church. Attending a Baptist church does not make me a Baptist, but I choose to attend there because it’s beliefs closely follow (in most ways) that which I know is true from a Biblical standpoint. The key is being a born-again Christian – following Christ in the path which he has laid out for us in God’s Word.

  61. Sakoieta says:

    Steve, I need to apologize for how I asked you that question. After thinking about it I should have rephrased it better. What I wanted to know was if you have been taught any of the teachings of your tribal group? I believe, like anything else, if we are going to have a really honest discussion then people need to know both sides of the coin at least so their beliefs of the people they are in conversation or communication with are not coming from a stereotypical position.

    Please do not apologize for this..”I have misled you into thinking I am a full blooded Indian. I am not. I appologize for my misleading remarks. Though I do have the blood of American Indian in my family line. To me if I take DNA to it’s conclusion, we are all brothers, all descendants of one common ancestor.”

    Though I do have to honestly state that I myself do not agree with the last part. I know those who want to nit pick are going to jump all over me for this one. But I tell it like it is. I am glad you believe it and that is okay. I do not get angry about any of this any more. I understand how much of another people’s story of a history with God has been left out of the church, government, education system etc. So I now am fully aware in teaching or sharing what I share that to the European way of life, which is to attack that which is different from the good old Uncle Sam, Mom, Apple pie and our country was founded on God and the flag mentality, is to almost literally walk with a big archery type of target on my chest. Everyone seems to want to take a shot. I am not into the melting pot theory or belief of living that the government or church puts forward. We all have a uniqueness that I believe the dominant society, whether Canadian or American has tried to kill. How dull and bleary would be the flowers of the field, the trees of the forest, the birds and animals of the woods if God believed what the United States puts forward. Forget your language and culture and customs and become American or Canadian. To do so, if we go with this mentality and call it of God, then I believe our efforts fly as an affront to God who has created diversity and beauty in the way He has given the Robin a voice of it’s own, the wolf a howl that no other sings, the bluejay who speaks in his own language. The roses of the field who smell like no other. The unity of a whole of creation created through the coming together of diverse parts to create a beautiful master piece of life, living, color and songs. All giving praise to it’s Creator. So why is it that the church follows the same mentality as the Government, everything should be the same, if it is different it is suspect or wrong. Let the Mohawks sing spiritual songs to the Creator in their own language and in their own way. Let the Sioux do it, the Cherokee do it, the Russians do it, the Polish do it,etc. Why does it all have to be done in English and done as one group dictates church has to be done or it is unGodly, unChristian? I will not follow that belief. The Bible states “come into his presence singings psalms, hymns and spiritual songs”. So who gets to be the judge to say who’s way of doing it is more correct or appropriate. I think those who think so narrowly, may claim Freedom in Christ but they have willingly become bound to man’s law and thinking as put forward by the good old USA and Canada. Sorry, but I will not follow that as a Sovereign Citizen of the Mohawk Nation of North America who existed before the US and Canada were created. I cannot if I claim to be a child of the one who created me and gave me life.

  62. mtman says:

    I sure don’t know where anyone got the idea I was 90. That is no where near the case although I sometimes feel like it.

  63. cherielyn says:

    Loretta Beavis: If you would like to see a JW translation of the Bible, for comparison, you can find it at: watchtower.org/ e/ bible/ index.htm

    Of course it has to be preceded by the http & the www. You’ll notice that I have put spaces in the address above. If you use the address, you need to delete those spaces or it won’t work.

    I have a New World Translation. It was given to me by a JW who was desperately trying to convert me. I am surprised that your JW ‘friend’ won’t get you a copy or even let you look at hers. Guess she’s afraid you will find something that will contradict her beliefs – which says a lot, because her faith must be unstable. My JW ‘friend’ is in a sad situation because she has swallowed the JW’s beliefs hook, line & sinker. She harbors absolutely no doubts about her beliefs. How sad it will be for her when, on the day of reckoning, she comes to the realization that she was lead astray & it is too late. I shudder for her eternal soul. It doesn’t stop me from praying for her to be enlightened by the truth of God’s Word.

  64. mtman says:

    foreverblessed: What did you extrapolate from what I wrote that caused you to provide the answer you did. I believe my point was totally missed. Since I don’t know what you were referring to that Mart wrote for students I have no idea of what you are referring to. As for the Catholic church accepting or rejecting certain historical principals I won’t even go there.
    I stand by my comments in full and completely.

  65. poohpity says:

    This morning I woke up thinking about God not Sakoieta, Steve, FEB, Chuck, WLM or Mart. Not that I do not like to hear from all of you but our God is bigger than just creation or being the Creator. God is our provider and many other attributes that place God at the top of our thoughts and if anything or if anyone else takes that place in our thoughts it is not of Him. There have been many people over the years, have ever many, that have been hurt in some form or another by other human beings, but God has healed those wounds and replaced that hurt with Love and acceptance by the One who does not show favoritism. We are all equal in God’s sight and the wisdom that comes from Him alone no matter what form that takes because in His infinite wisdom has allowed us to understand. As long as we seek God in all things we will try not to push people away from God but to bring them into His presence through love, His love because only God can give pure love and we can not look to each other to heal the wounds given by mankind to mankind. I can not but God can. In and of myself I am but dust but the Righteous One as the Psalmist puts it “He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples with equity”. So let us put our minds, hearts and souls on our God not each other.

  66. Sakoieta says:

    My reasoning behind asking Steve about the difference in churches and Bibles was only to illustrate how much of the ability to use free choice that we have as human beings. Also that we should use it. Personally I believe every day, every situation, every difficulty that I encounter should begin with seeking the guidance of the one who knows all through prayer. That then allows me to use my free will of choice to choose appropriately that which will meet my needs. That to me is wisdom of the ages. Mohawk teachings tell us we were put here to be a people of praise, thanksgiving and being wise stewards of the earth. That is what the Creator requires of us. Love mercy, do justice and walk humbly with our Creator. When we walk humbly it means, to us, that we are trying to stay in step with Him as we live our lives and then to extend that walk to others as they choose to accept it. We do not force our beliefs on anybody.

  67. foreverblessed says:

    Mtman, you wrote;
    I think we do the same with other subjects like wisdom as well. We call it earthly or worldly wisdom -vs- Godly wisdom. Really if we think about it, isn’t wisdom just wisdom? Why do we classify it. In doing so we reduce it to a few cents worth of diamond dust. Why accept the few cents worth when we can own the bank?

    So I said, it is good to classify, for the young the students, for counselling.
    And sorry, I deducted that age out of what you wrote about yourself. Sorry, I was wrong.
    And I love all of you.

  68. Loretta Beavis says:

    Cherielyn! Thank you so much! I feel sorrow for my friend and her daughter because there is something in their life I experienced in a different setting early in my life. When they firs started their mission visits at our house, the men in the group didn’t come out. I gently started asking about how she came to join this religion. I wanted to know if she received an anointed sharing of God’s word or a worldly proselyte inducement.

    It was the man she wanted to marry and his whole family. At that time, this area had a tiny population, so I can see where it was that or no marriage, possibly. And then it could become a life of pleasing spouse and family in order to please God. I don’t know yet. After that, she didn’t come on mission visits. Only the men came and would only talk to my spouse. If all of your family, friends, spouse, your generations of what you know is cemented in religion, a worldly wisdom about God, it is frontline spiritual warfare to leave that and live for Christ. Sometimes your family disowns you.

    My Dad would go to group picnics, sometimes the Catholic church put them on, sometimes “our” ethnic/cultural group (Lithuanian); it overlapped a lot. The people there would start speaking to me in LIthuanian. I didn’t know much and was shy so I didn’t answer. They would scold my dad and say what a shame it was. My mom couldn’t handle this stuff, so she stopped going to these things. Another big deal was you were supposed to marry a Lithuanian. Huh? We were living in the U.S.. My dad couldn’t agree with them…he didn’t tear them down either. I was young, it hurt being shamed like that. I wanted to be accepted. So, turning to Christ for the right relationship with God when your clan, family, tribe, band, social group, whatever your family group name is, is a tribulation. The early church had the same problems, pagans recently leaving their religions, but the traditions, etc. still hanging on. Look at the patchwork of symbolism in “Easter” and “Christmas.” The acceptance and belongingness puffs up our pride, to the point of trying to live two lives – one for God and one for family. Paul addressed this, writing letters to the different churches about the need to stay on track with Christ,too.

    “If the shoe fits, wear it.”
    I stepped my size 8 into the void and it landed on the Solid Rock, Jesus!

    Romans 10:14-15 (NKJ) “How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
    (The last line is from Isaiah 52:7)

    I love my Jesus

  69. poohpity says:

    Sakoieta, I have not said anything specifically to you until this time because it is against the guidelines but I can no longer remain quite. You stated in your above post, “That then allows me to use my free will of choice to choose appropriately that which will meet my needs”. That is the difference about your religion and my relationship with God it is no longer about my needs but it is about God and His will for my life to show His Glory not to bring Glory to me or my heritage, lineage or language. It is not about me it is about God period. I hope to think, behave and say things that will honor God not myself. If I am understanding your posts what you have intended to point out was that all of the efforts of Catholicism, Baptist’s, Lutheran’s, and the list goes on only to add the Mohawk way. It seems in your effort to admonish different religions you open our eyes to yet another one which focuses on the needs of the few rather than the many and if that is OK for you that is fine but as you said before about proselytizing, it seems that is also what is trying to be done by the emphasis on the Mohawk way.

  70. pegramsdell says:

    Maybe we should look to the future (heaven) and not so much the past. My ancestors are Norwegian. So what? I am Christian. God is my Father. Jesus is my Savior. What difference does it make where I come from? Everything I do should bring glory to God! Our history is important only if it brings glory to God. If our history doesn’t agree that Jesus is The Son of God then why are we spending so much time on it.

  71. mtman says:

    Isn’t it amazing how two people can read the same thing and come away with different concepts as to what was said? What I came away with from reading Sakoieta’s posts was that he was he was not proselytizing. Did not like the concept either way.
    What he has in his Mohawk clan is far more similar if you ask me than what we have in the various churches he listed earlier. He has core family with traditional beliefs that have embraced Christianity. It is just a different form than most of us are used to. Why are some so threatened by a different form of worship? He is not suggesting it for us and we should not be challenging him either.
    Of all the churches he listed earlier there are none known to me that stand out like the early church as described in Acts. For the most part when pagans look at Christians they don’t see anything different from non Christians. A wise lady once said that going to a building with a cross on top doesn’t make you any more a Christian than sitting in a chicken coop will make you a chicken. Shouldn’t Christians stand out and also stand for something, and shouldn’t that be readily apparent to pagans?
    Seems to me that Sakoieta is much closer to the Christians as described in Acts than many denominations or religious groups. God will certainly judge in the end but shouldn’t we be taking some lessons from what our Mohawk friend has posted?

  72. Sakoieta says:

    Poohpity, Let me share an exercise I used to do with different people. I set up three groups of people and give one group red eyeglasses and call them Native American. I give the second group blue glasses and call the Americans. I give another group yellow eyeglasses and call them Oriental. I then tell each group to describe their culture through the lenses they are looking through. Native American culture is red, American culture is blue, Oriental culture is yellow. I then ask the Americans to put look at Native culture through their lenses. They tell me we have looked and Native culture is purple. They look at Oriental culture and say Oriental culture is orange. Are they right? Is it not possible to accept just the fact that Native people say there culture is red and believe them even though to Americans it looks purple? and the same with each group? Is it not okay to believe the Creator has revealed parts of himself with the different groups that he has not shown to others so when they truly learn to love and share they will get more of the whole picture of the way God reveals himself to humanity. Instead of one group demanding that no matter what people say Natives are purple and Orientals are orange.

  73. Sakoieta says:

    oops made some mistakes in my last post. Believe me people, I am not color blind. Those with Red glasses, the Natives would look through their lens at Oriental and see Orange. The Blue or American would see green if the look at Oriental. The blue looking at red would see purple and vice versa.

    Poohpity, I can only speak from my culture or who I am, that is why I bring forth my Mohawk heritage so no one will be confused. I make no efforts to missionize or proselytize only to share as a Mohawk man. Are you Canadian or American or what? I personally believe that Christianity cannot exist without a cultural basis. I also believe there is really no such thing as American or Canadian culture. Those are remnants of a culture that came from Europe and is not nor was not Indigenous to this continent. So when people tell me I am a Christian and I follow the Lord and believe in what the Bible says. Sorry but I need more information before I am going to be safe or feel safe around you due to the history we have with Christians who said the same things and then thought nothing of destroying my people. You can shout you are Christian from the Mountaintops and I will say fantastic, good for you. Now when you are done shouting today come down from the mountain into the valley where we live and show me what makes you different from common man, other than your words saying so. Preach your gospel, if necessary use words. Each day I am in contact with Indian people from many different tribal groups around the world. There is still a daily onslaught to destroy who we are as a people, destroy our languages, destroy our culture. We still have too many of our children being taken away and put in non-Native foster homes. Yet when we have created foster homes we have questioned the forces that be why they will not allow non-Native kids to be raised in Indian foster homes. Why? One word Racism. We hear it, feel it, see it, every day. Yet the church denies it’s racism or puts it forth as being biblically based as “Old things have passed away and behold all things become new. Indians need to leave their pagan culture and become American or Canadian which to most equals Christian. From our experiences that is a blatant lie. Yet I will also freely admit our culture is far from being perfect. but that is up to me with my colored eyeglasses on to look at and address not someone who sees purple or orange to do it or judge it.

  74. SFDBWV says:

    mtman, Bruce, If you were a missionary and found a people living in the forest who had no concept of life anywhere else other then their area of the forest, and these people lived in spirit and deed in total agreement with every good concept of peaceful living.

    Would you consider them saved?

    If your answer is yes, then what need would we have had for the life death crucifiction and resurection of Jesus Christ?

    If your answer is no they are not saved. What doctrine would you use to bring eternal salvation for these people?

  75. foreverblessed says:

    SFDBWV, may I answer you?
    What if you did give the message of salvation in Christ, and they answered; that’s alright for you, but we are not really bad people.
    So what do you do then?
    You walk on to the next mission.
    Jesus said, only the sick need a doctor.

  76. cherielyn says:

    It is my opinion that when we are with the Lord there will no longer be different races, cultures, languages, skin colors, male or female. We will ALL be ONE in Christ. If I am wrong, it won’t really matter because our focus will be on Him, not on each other and our differences.

  77. SFDBWV says:

    foreverblessed, certainly you may answer, as anyone who wishes to may.

    I am not sure you answered the question or ask me a different question.

    Are you saying that these people have no need for Christ?

  78. poohpity says:

    I am a common man well woman my genealogy makes the determination of what my eyes look like (brown) the graying of my dark brown hair, the shape of my nose, the structure of my cheek bones which are high, the shape of my mouth which my mom referred to as round and puckered and the stature of my frame which is large and full. I have never tried to take anything away from any culture but to listen, learn and embrace. I do not believe that things are my way or the highway and I make every attempt to not sit in judgment of others for any reason that is God’s job not mine. My ears and eyes are used more than my mouth because God has blessed me with the gift of encouragement, mercy and faith those are the only things I will boost in which help in my profession of counseling.

    If you will read my posts with open eyes and ears you will find that I have tried much to my disappointment to refocus our discussions back on the topic we are talking about which I failed myself at remaining focused. Your story although very enlightening, significant, and important to me have taken the focus off of what this blogs topic is currently which is “Four kinds of Wisdom”

    I will at this time relent any further discussion that has anyone or anything but the topic at hand because it is so hard to discuss things that take an in person face to face meeting to really in all honesty understand any person. One can never do justice to a person by typing words on the internet. There are things that have been misinterpreted and misunderstood because to have personal discussions it takes being present with all ones senses for me.

    I believe in the bible as the inspired Word of God which has taught that in Christ there is no longer any nationality, gender or social status we are all one in Christ. I choose to look at folks as human beings living in a fallen world in need of a Savior and I enjoy learning about many cultures and peoples because they are all created in the image of God and have much to teach me because I am a student of life.

    Since we have been posting on this blog I have had no idea about anyone’s race, social status or many other things because that is not what we are here for. We are here to discuss topics that help us to think about things going on around us all over the world that affect our beliefs. We also discuss some of the things that have brought us to the cross and there are times when we all have experienced rejection and disappointment from the so called body of Christ but do not negate our identity in Christ. I for one at this point will not so gracefully bow out of the Sakoieta topic. Thank you for sharing about yourself over the past few days it is good to have new people join us.

    If one were to take only parts of the bible and hold them to be true which ones do we leave out?

  79. daisymarygoldr says:

    To answer Steve/SFDBWV’s Q, I was thinking of your comment on “Better than Gold” regarding the tree of knowledge. In Prov 3:18.Wisdom is referred to “a tree of life”.

    It is so interesting to read in Gen 2 that “In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” and God’s command to Adam was: “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.”

    Had they eaten of the tree of life they would have had the wisdom to not be beguiled by the evil one who deceived them into eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge… God then prohibited access to the Tree of Life.

    “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God”. Revelation 2:7

    “On each side of the river stood the tree of life… And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations…Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life” (Rev 22).

    Jesus is the only…Way, the truth and Life. Through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross and His resurrection, we have access to Wisdom— the Tree of life which Adam and Eve were barred from eating!

  80. daisymarygoldr says:

    Sakoieta, There sure is a radical difference in our belief systems.

    The wisdom found within the pages of the Bible tells us that God created us as good and perfect but we chose to follow evil and became imperfect. I was taught as a child and also teach my child that the Bible says our good is like filthy rags.

    Hence to affirm the world’s accusations, the church rightly acknowledges herself as vile and wicked. It is only in Christ we claim to have the right standing with God and are considered as good and capable to communicate with Him as our God and creator.
    Getting back to wisdom…

    Q: where is wisdom found?

    A: Job, who hailed from an unknown ethnic background also asked the exact question “But where can wisdom be found?” (Job 28:12). Job further states Wisdom is hidden and priceless and only “God understands the way to it and He alone knows where it dwells”

    God alone knows… because True wisdom in its perfection can only be found in God. He is Himself Wisdom!

    Next, True wisdom is to be found in the Lord Jesus, “who has become for us wisdom from God….” (1 Cor 1:30) “…in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” (Col 1:3)

    True wisdom is to be found in the Bible — the written Word of God that holds true wisdom…. It is the double-edged sword that destroys the subtle schemes of the adversary working both within me (i.e. the church) and others. …to lead every thought and purpose away captive into the obedience of Christ” (2 Cor 3:10-16)

    …and now true wisdom of God is found in the Church (Eph 3:10)!

    Q: What is Wisdom?
    A: “The fear of the Lord–that is wisdom” (Job 28:28)!

  81. SFDBWV says:

    As always Daisy, you not only get it, but are most often there already.

  82. mtman says:

    SFDBWV-Steve: That is a good hypothetical question but I do not see exactly how it applies to the target situation.
    Could we also assume that after you lived with this lost tribe for a few years you found that they worshiped a single divine creator and their spoken history that has been passed down talked of one God. A loving God that they prayed to constantly 3who considered them special. You discovered like Sakoieta explained that they considered an eagle as God’s messenger. If you used the owl to tell them the Word you would perhaps not have the opportunity to move on. However, sticking with your example assume that they already knew there was a God and worshiped this supreme deity in a different way than you are used to. Would you still move on because they didn’t do it your way? Would you consider them less Godly? How would they consider you?
    I think that your question is comparable to apples and oranges. My point would be if Christians were so special couldn’t anyone tell- whether it be a pagan or a lost tribe in the wilderness? Couldn’t gang members in L.A or Detroit see the difference? Couldn’t your neighbor see the difference. A Christian should stand out by their love, unity and deed to those around them. I’m sorry but I just don’t see that coming from our churches. I do see some Christians that if I were a pagan, I would want to know more about why they are like they are but sadly that amount is diminishing. Personally I believe that Sakoieta is dead on with his comments and because he worships in a long house instead of a denominational church with a steeple on top doesn’t present me with the least problem.
    I have heard about Jesus, accepted him as my Lord and Savior, but I’m not an authority on who will get into heaven and who won’t. That is up to our Lord himself. In the meantime I hope to learn from those who may differ from me. I believe there are many facets to our Lord and I only know a fraction and wish to know more.

  83. SFDBWV says:

    mtman Bruce I tried to keep the question as simple and uncomplicated as I could.

    Would you consider these people “saved” if they have never heard of Jesus or the Christ nor the biblical account of how salvation is offered and recieved?


    Do you believe a different messenger, other than the disciples of Christ who were commissioned to take the Gospel into all the world, is possible?

    If you believe a different messenger other than the Church (body of Christ) Can you tell me where in the bible this way is explained and given credibility?

  84. mtman says:

    SFDBWV: Steve: Our Lord told us to “Go therefore and “make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age”.
    Again: But you shall receive power “when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.
    Again: Go into the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
    I don’t see where the disciples of Christ were the only ones commissioned. Jesus talked to thousands and Paul was not one of his disciples but was later converted.
    So to answer your question it was not just the 11 disciples he was talking to but his followers to go and make disciples to the ends of the earth.
    Until Sakoieta posted it I had not thought much about Cornelius and Peter. I think it is worthy to consider and to do less would certainly limit or contain our Lord. Paul was persecuting Christians but he had a Damascus road experience. (after the death of our Lord on the cross) Only time that ever happened? The Lord I worship I try not to limit or contain.
    As to being saved, I think I have already answered that best I can. I guess I wonder if you happen to be already there why not tell them about the Lord and leave the rest up to him.
    Thanks for keeping the question simple because I am just a simple man.

  85. mtman says:

    Additional comment: Was it just the remaining the ll disciples he sent forth – I don’t really know. Not being there I can only assume that the two Mary’s and others may have been present as well. Mine is an assumption because I don’t know for sure, but don’t see where it is that important. The sending forth were some of the very last words our Lord spoke to us. The context of those words are what are important.

  86. daisymarygoldr says:

    If we have been hurt or offended by the Church, then it is wise to go talk with the leaders or the individual persons. But please do not fall for the evil ploys of the adversary—the accuser of the brethren… to accuse and slander the church. Instead, forgive and pray for the Lord to give us wisdom from above!

    Regardless of what you think about the church, she belongs to the Lord, and if we do things that become a stumbling-block to the faith of believers we will certainly be judged by God. For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

    “For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged” (1 Cor 11:31).
    “But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world” (1 Cor 11:32).

    For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men…” (2 Cor 5:10-11)

    “I urge you therefore, brothers and sisters:), to watch out for those who cause divisions (that are being used by the enemy to sow discord among the brethren)… to put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned.

    Keep away from them… they deceive the minds of naive people. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites.

    (Lest anyone is deceived, God has not appointed the church to function as a financial, geo-political or judicial power and neither has He equipped us with Gold or Silver or Land to fill greedy appetites of those who seek such things in restitution. All we have and all we can give away is nothing… other than the riches of Christ— the redemptive wisdom of God).

    …I want you to be wise about what is good… The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.” (Rom 16: 17-29)!

  87. SFDBWV says:

    You are right Bruce, it started there in Jerusalem. At the day of Pentecost the disciples recieved the Holy Spirit, after they, thousands and the Good News of the Gospel began to spread.

    By word of mouth and later as we know the story of salvation was written down. So that it would remain true to the facts and not be changed.

    Here in West Virginia we have an oddity, the local people called it the “Indian Rock”. It was called that by local people because they thought the writting on it was some early form of Indian language.

    It turns out to be Celtic. Written by a Christian Celt probably many many years before Columbus awoke the European Kingdoms of the “New World”.

    It says, in part “The savior of the world was born on this day, to the virgin.”

    It began in Jerusalem, Christians sharing the gospel, any believer in Christ as the Savior is a Christian. It is the responsibility of us, we Christians to bring the Gospel to every nation every tongue every people.

    My apologies to the Mormons but I don’t believe there is a Testimony for the Americas and a different Testimony for the rest of the world.

    The Gospel was first offered to the Jew. If there were any other variations of the Gospel and testimony of Christ, Jesus would have told this in His teachings. There is no such teachings as I know of.

    My answer to my question, is that every person every soul will have to make the decision to either accept or deny the Christ. Until they have heard the story of Christ, and made the chioce for Christ, they are not saved from Judgement.

    Every person in all the world, of every nation, tongue and tribe has a need for Christ to escape judgement, as well as transform them into a new being.

    It is all about Jesus Christ. and what He wants for us.

    Just for Sakoieta’s sake I would like to add that Jesus is a Greek name for Joshua. Most languages have a name for the Christ. My wife tells me she has been at the Northwest Tribal Counsels and listened to many chiefs who are Christian.

  88. mtman says:

    DMG: Who/what is the church? Is it the organizational religious denominations? Or is it those specific people who have decided to follow Jesus? I just read a post on another Christian blog site that denominational religions have failed those seeking or are following Jesus. The call was for home churches. I believe most comments I have heard are pertaining to “religion” and not those specific followers of Jesus who are the church. There is a definite distinction.

  89. poohpity says:

    Mart with those you have deemed as secular wisdom, I looked through the book of Proverbs and found that although not the exact words as you used but the meanings were similar. Proverbs 27:19; As water reflects a face, so a man’s heart reflects the man. Solomon was given given so much wisdom yet he married so many women which drew him away from God and after all was said and done he seemed to be wearied over having it. That is one of the things I am learning about knowledge. One loves to gain it but when your eyes are open to so much sometimes you do not really want to know anymore cause it causes sadness in your heart. I guess that is where that statement comes from ignorance is bliss.

  90. daisymarygoldr says:

    mtman, not sure if I will measure up to the wisdom of my namesake deer but do convey my love to her:) IMHO, no matter what the denomination, the Lord adds to the Church those who believe in His Word to obey the Gospel and are being saved. Regardless of where they meet- at a home or in a shack or under a tree or inside an AC Theatre (have fellowshipped in all of the above) she is the only spiritual body of believers that is the object of the Lord’s love and will be caught up to meet her beloved in the sky! It causes me untold pain every time the Church is maligned by the very ones who constitute her. In fact “Why I don’t want to go to Church” was the very topic that brought me into the portals of the Been Thinking about blog!
    So, please, if we want to expose and condemn the faults of organized religion or organizational religious denominations, then it is wise not to use the word “Church”. Thank you mtman for hearing and listening!

  91. wretch-like-me says:

    Dear Friends,
    I took the time to re-read the posts under this topic and reflected a while on the ‘whole’.

    It reminded me of something I saw on FoxNews Network’s show hosted by Gov. Mike Huckabee.

    His guest was George Barna, author of 40+ books on the christian church over the past 30 yrs and ‘trends’ in the surveys from various sources including church-goers from around the world.

    One such observation is an alarming trend among ‘christians’ today. Apparently the ‘what’s right for ME’ generation is developing a ‘blend’ of religious philosophies including asian, middle eastern, and native american mysticism. It appears to be a ‘shopping mall’ approach to religion where the ‘individual’ develops their own ‘recipe’ of beliefs and practices. (sound familiar Sakoieta??)

    The major difficulty with this practice is that it directly opposes the basics of christianity.

    Biblical christians lose themselves in Christ. Matt.10:39;16:25;Mark 8:35;Luke 9:24;17:33
    We give up our rights ‘to choose’and become bond-servants. We no longer think of ourselves but do all that we can to please our Master, who is Jesus Christ. We attempt to live the kind of life He lived; thinking not of ourselves and our needs. We seek to serve others as Christ served and sacrificed Himself for the church.

    I ask this question to all who read my post; not just Sakoieta…

    Have you accepted Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord??? Have you renounced the things of this world including heritage, lineage, bloodline, tribe, race, color, or anything that is contrary to the teachings of Christ and a stumbling block for other christians?

    I am not your judge; for I am not your Master.

    A good friend of mine used to say,
    “A stick can LOOK mighty straight…
    until you lay it next to a Ruler!!”

    Who is the ‘Ruler’ you try to measure up to?
    I hope it is the same as Mine.
    The Lord, Jesus Christ


    PS. My intent is not to offend; but, undoubtedly some will take offense. Afterall, we are enemies of darkness.

  92. sjd says:

    Sorry for coming in late on this post! Trying to pick up on “redemptive” wisdom which Mart spoke about.

    What is the “foolishness” of the cross? It is the same as the wisdom of God! (I Corinthians 1) How one perceives it doesn’t change what it is. Just because I believe a certain answer on a test I take is true when it is really false doesn’t make it true. Just because many people believe that the cross is foolishness doesn’t change the fact of it being God’s wisdom, of Christ being our wisdom, of it being foolish.

    God in His wisdom has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise. The wisdom of God regarding redemption is clearly spoken of in His Word, the Bible. Paul in his letter to the Corinthian church states that there are those who do not understand the need for the cross, it is foolishness to them. To others the cross is the power of God. It is wisdom at it’s finest!

    In God’s Word, it is clearly spoken that in the beginning everything was created good, but soon that changed. We read in Romans sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned. (Romans 5:12) There are passages repeated in the Old and New Testament that tell us that the heart of man is desperately wicked; that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God; that there is none righteous, no not one; all have gone astray, each has gone to his own way; there is no one who seeks God; all our righteousness is as filthy rags; if we claim to be without sin, we make God a liar; we are dead in our trespasses; that no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit………. It is not wisdom to take what one wants to believe out of the Bible and leave out things that are distasteful. We need to receive all the counsel of God as revealed in His Word.

    The wisdom of God tells us that everyone is in a desperate state of darkness, death, hopelessness, condemnation, apart from Christ. There would be no need of Christ to die on the cross if we were all good. What purpose would there be for the wrath of God to be placed on His Son Jesus if there were no “sick” people, no people who were dead in their sins?

    If we think we are good, we simply need to look at God’s Law. Paul said that the Law was our school master to lead us to Christ, that without the law he would not have known what coveting was. Check out the !0 Commandments. If you do not come away recognizing you are guilty of rebellion against God, you are not listening to your God given conscience. I am guilty!

    I am thankful to God that His cross is not foolishness to me! By His grace alone do I enjoy Him today, do I enjoy freedom. I am so thankful for “redemptive” wisdom!

    Romans 8:1-4 (NASB95)
    1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
    3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
    4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

  93. Sakoieta says:

    wretchlike me… what you write is fine with me. I have no problem with it at all. I have not shopped around for anything at all. I have come to a path the Creator has led me to. Now I just work at helping to clear away the blockages that Christians put there that have stopped my people from being able to fully enjoy and share their experiences of God with the rest of the world. Keep the blinders on my friend. Sometimes standing in the light hurts your eyes to where you can’t see anything else around you. But this line of yours is quite interesting I would like to see how a real Christian lives life with none of these influences…”Have you renounced the things of this world including heritage, lineage, bloodline, tribe, race, color, or anything that is contrary to the teachings of Christ and a stumbling block for other christians?

    Let me share a story.. there was a missionary who went to live with a tribe of people in the forests of central america. He was determined to share the gospel with them. He had an interpreter who worked with him to help him understand the language and CULTURE (oh,oh, there’s that bad “C” word)of the people he was going to work with. As he spent time with the people he became concerned that he kept hearing them refer to their Creator as Sahatana. So he told his interpreter one night to tell the people he was going to tell them the one true name of the Creator. When his interpreter asked what that was he said the real name of the Creator is Jesus Christ. The interpreter immediately acted surprised and told the missionary he could not do that. The missionary then insisted thinking the interpreter was not wanting to co-operate for other reasons. So he demanded the interpreter do as he was told to do. So the interpreter called all the people together that night, telling them the missionary was going to tell them the one true name of the Creator. As the people expectantly gathered the missionary again told the interpreter to tell the people the true name of the Creator is Jesus Christ. The interpreter again informed the missionary that he could not do that, where upon the missionary in his anger called out to the people and told them the real name of the Creator is Jesus Christ. The people looked shocked, then they began to laugh and walk away. The missionary, shaken now at the reception he got, called after them but they continued to walk away. He went to see the chief, who had already been told what had happened. The chief motioned to the interpreter to sit with him and the missionary. He then told the interpreter to tell the missionary if he wants to work with the people and have them listen to him, he needs to learn the language and culture (oops there is that bad “C” word again) of the people. Jesoos Chrees in the language of the people means “He defecates”. A few days later the missionary was heard speaking to the people, through the interpreter, about the wonderous works of Sahatana.

  94. Sakoieta says:

    People, I thank you all for the discussions that have taken place. I have spent many hours in prayer over these posts examining my beliefs and what I believe to be God’s calling for me and my life. After reading all of the posts over and over again and meditating on them I am so glad God led me to the path he did and I am so glad he led all of you to the paths that you follow. I see a bright field in the heavens where there will be flowers of all different colors and scents at some time in the future when we all get there. Blessings to you all. I think I have tried to share in a fair and honest manner. I will stay with my path and I thank you for all the prayers you will send my way.

  95. Sakoieta says:

    Oops forgot to thank Mart. Niawenhkó:wa Mart. Great thanks for giving me the space to share here on this forum. I was really surprised you did, since occasionally when I tried to share on other forums I was banned or reprimanded for my comments, even though some directed at me were not only unkind but could not even be called Godly, much less Christian. Niawenhkó:wa ta’non onen ki wahi káron tsi ní:iore tentsitewatatken. (many thanks and now it is finished until we meet again)

  96. sjd says:

    I have read some very good points the last several days that have had me thinking a lot.

    One is how I as a follower of Christ, and my local Church, can with wisdom follow God’s heart in caring for others apart from sharing the Gospel……. I wonder how specifically we can reach out to the Native Americans. I admit my ignorance in this matter and appreciate what I have been recently exposed to. I would like to know more specifics, wanting to act with wisdom.

    I can also concur with the need for being careful in how we enter into another culture as “American” Christians. In the past I have had the privilege of going into a variety of countries on “mission” trips, with quite a varied culture among several of them.

    The leaders that I went with had a great understanding of not going into the areas to try to Americanize the culture, but to come along side the other believers in that culture to assist them in sharing the Gospel.

    Those living in those other countries have a true understanding of the culture, language,……. We as Americans can do a lot of harm in trying to change the culture. It does not appear a wise thing to do.

    We can learn much about what has been shared these last few days. There is wisdom there in helping us love others.

    Thank you Sakoieta!

  97. lilu1314h says:

    It’s a really interesting discussion going on…

    Our God must be a God that like varieties, He made so many different types of races, tribes, faces… By all means, He also wants us to worship Him ALONE and no other. As such, how to make all these different types of people to worship Him only? That’s why He give us the guidelines – Bible & Holy Spirit.

    There are thousands of cultures in this world that affected our belief system that will function in our daily routine. I believe some are good & some are not so good. But how to distinguish which are good / not good, is very subjective. Again, we need some kind of wisdom & that’s point to our God. If our culture is biblical than we shall embrace it, if not we can “improve it”. (just my opinion)

    e.g. In my culture of living, parents are supposed to be the one with the full authority & the children do not have any chance to voice out any opinion, son is preferable than daughter, punishment = love etc, so I live in that kind of culture which lead me to be an adult who always feel insecure, low self esteem, timid etc. Before I became a Christian, I felt so worthless & meaningless to live a life. I never know the belief system is wrong until I met Him.

    Now that I know certain parts of my culture belief is not so profitable, in future, I will not pass it down to my next generations so they will not suffer what I’ve been going through. Of course, some of our culture is also good, like honouring the parents, faithful etc. & I’ll pass it to the next generation.

    God has given us the plump line to live regardless our gender, age, race, tribe etc or else it really difficult to unite the family of Christ. The main point is – fear of the Lord is the beginning of the wisdom & my prayer is for God to open the spiritual eyes & ears for all of us to accept the truth & not blinded by the enemy.

  98. poohpity says:


    Amen and thank you for your post. The one thing in God’s infinite wisdom that all will have in common is the love of God as shown in what He did at the Cross in the person of Jesus Christ. There are many that have overcome cultural abuse not by just skin color but in gender issues as well. We are all one in Christ and that is wisdom to unite under one cause that brings many together in love.

  99. daisymarygoldr says:

    Niawenhkó:wa Sakoieta, I have greatly enjoyed talking to you. Hope you will continue to visit and post whenever you find time. You are in my prayers…

  100. wretch-like-me says:

    I, too, have enjoyed ‘jousting’ with you and I bear no ill feelings toward our exchanges. I agree the ‘light’ sometimes blinds as it did on the road to Damascus.

    Understanding as I do this world, it is only a temporary hunting ground where we learn to walk the walk and as you might put it ‘follow our spirit-guide’ (in christianity, we would say Holy Spirit-Guide).

    To answer your parting question:
    The scriptures reference Our Lord saying that His Disciples must ‘pickup their crosses daily’… it is a learning experience of denying self and making sure as I have said in previous posts..
    that the ‘living sacrifice’ stays on the altar.

    I willingly admit that I am not completely successful in my attempts to foresake all for my Lord. That is why I am still here in this earthly wigwam.

    Blessings to you, Sakoieta, and may the Great Father of us All, lead you to true understanding and bliss.
    I hope to meet you someday in the Happy Hunting Ground.

    BTW. My own family tree has Blackfoot/Cherokee blood… mingled with European. And why do you refer to yourself as an Indian… instead of Native American. (unless of course you live in India?)


  101. BobbiLee says:

    It seems that the “C” word – culture – has been the main topic here lately. The other “C” word – Christianity – sees culture as basically irrelevant. Again, as I pointed out earlier,when we become Christians we don’t give up or lose our culture or ethnicity. What we do give up is ourselves and our right to ourselves. That right belongs to Jesus Christ.

    Paul said in Romans 1:19, 20 – “what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”

    Those lost jungle tribes are without excuse either because God has given them and all people the knowledge of who He is. Verse 22& 23says, “Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. And verse 25: They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised.”

    No one anywhere has an excuse to not know God.It is then up to Holy Spirit to reveal to them Jesus Christ.

    An additional thought: belief does not determine truth. It makes no difference what you and I believe. What determines truth is God’s Word and the Living Word, Jesus Christ. Another thought: making a choice about anything because a person “feels” it’s right or good, is meaningless also. If we depend on our feelings for anything we are setting ourselves up for failure. It’s a good thing we don’t have to depend on our feelings because our feelings can deceive us and are determined by many moods and circumstances.

    Again, thank you Mart, for a great lesson and discussion.

  102. foreverblessed says:

    Mart started with the story of the 2 monks, parafrased:
    The one said to the other:
    I put him down on the riverside, but you are still carrying him.

    And to SFWDV: Colossians 1:15-23 that is what I believe with all my heart.
    But we cannot push it down the throat of someone who says he is allright.
    God knows how to work that out.

    And what could we do: The first christians came together a lot, and they prayed in one accord.
    So that is why Christ told us to be one, so the world would know -all men will know that you are my disciples if you have love for one another.- John 13:34-35.

    Prayer is wisdom, pray in a humble way, very humble, and these first christians were very humble, because here they thought Christ would bring the Kingdom, and instead He dies on a cross. They were really praying together, and they meant it with all their hearts,and waited in faith, because they did not have a clue how God would work that out. They had to really rely on Him.

  103. mtman says:

    This has been very enlightening. Sakoieta I hope that you will continue to post from time to time but I can understand if you don’t. You have been asked many questions but never the critical one in my opinion. Have you been baptized in the name of Jesus. From your previous replies it is apparent to me that you were. I have read post after post that restates denominational dogma that has failed us all over the years. Several regardless of your postings will continue to only see with blinders on. As I read back on many of these postings I would not be encouraged to join or be a part of Christians if I were a non believer.
    You clearly stated that you believed in the bible, and Jesus. You have an exception to which you gave your reason for. I will ponder that reason but I do not see it as a threat to what I believe but something that should be thought out and considered. Minds can be changed and your wisdom should have initiated fruitful thought but instead it apparently threatened others and their belief.
    I thank you for your patience and tolerance. It has shown me how myopic some can be without understanding at all. It also shows how denominational dogma has damaged what our Lord sent his disciples out to do.
    I guess this has left me with more questions than answers. If you truly have the Holy Spirit within you how can you limit our Lord as some do and how can you put obstacles in front of a believer/s who actually have the ability to question? I don’t understand how in love and wisdom others who profess to be Christian don’t see the same thing.
    Sakoieta, this dialog has opened my eyes and those who have such a narrow myopic view of our Lord are missing out on much in life. It has strengthened my faith in our Lord. My path is more straight because of what has been revealed here. I believe that I will now go back to reading Mart’s daily postings and post only when I must. I believe I have lost my desire to be heard on this blog site. I am glad we have it but it does point out a certain lack of understanding and continues to keep our Lord very limited and contained.

  104. daisymarygoldr says:

    mtman, It is a blessing to hear you describe the world that is nestled on that beautiful mountain of yours. Although I may not always agree, I do love to read and hear everything you and the other bloggers share…it makes me to think! Sometimes my comments may sound offensive but I want to assure you that it is intended to simply test our thinking… not to hurt any one of us. I don’t know if I said anything wrong but sorry:( if my words in any way have hurt your feelings. Please forgive me…and keep posting:)

    Speaking of denominational dogma, I agree with you when in a previous blog you had suggested, if we are not happy with our church it is better to look for another one and move on. And as I said before, it is not fair to sling dirt on the church if we had wrongly associated ourselves with the synagogue of satan (i.e. organizational religious denominations) and then equating it with the body of Christ.

    Who is to be blamed if we failed to follow the wisdom of the Bible to lack an understanding of what the church is and have allowed ourselves to be deceived by whitewashed graves?

    This is to humbly ask you mtman, is it a narrow myopic view when the Bible teaches us to come out and be separated, to not be yoked or have communion with unbelievers? Is it to defend our beliefs that we keep ourselves from being polluted by the world? Is it due to fear of being threatened that the Word of God warns us to remain distinct and peculiar as the unique body of Christ?

    On the contrary, it is the light of the gospel which threatens those who hide sins in their hearts and are choosing to remain in darkness not willing to come and confess before God. Is it then possible for us to walk in the light and relate to the unfruitful works of darkness?

    Who has understood the mind of God to question His love and wisdom when on the last day He will separate the wheat and the sheep to eternal life and will cast away the tares and the goats into everlasting fire? Are you also saying that Jesus did not truly have the Holy Spirit when He limited Himself to pray not for the world but only for those who have obeyed the word? John 17:9

    Mtman, the distinct line of demarcation has already been drawn way before you and I arrived on the scene. We have been commissioned only to go and tell so that others also may hear the Wisdom of God and be saved from the wrath to come.

    When I was little, we had a poster illustrating the broad and the narrow path. It always filled me with sorrow to see without my blinders on…people blindly walking along the broad path that seemed right to their eyes but ultimately leads them to destruction and death.

    Are Christians limiting and containing our Lord when by sweating tears of blood we persuade people to accept the Lord and be saved while there is still time? How else can one explain those giving their lives to be persecuted and martyred for the sake of the gospel of Christ?

    It grieves me to see people limited and contained by their own sin, their cultural background, their race, color, their gender and all other cares and riches of this world. The path is narrow and we still have a long way to go. For now all we can do is peacefully rest in the perfect wisdom that “God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows all those who are His”!

  105. foreverblessed says:

    This topic on wisdom still is in my head, especially the note of Mart who said, sometimes christians can be so unwise.
    It is good it was going about the Indian people, and christians do look into it, and do something about it.

    We have this vast important task of proclaiming the gospel, as DMG stated above, but in science many christians say things which are not wise. And that concerns me too.
    So this is scientific subject, if you are not into it, do not read it.

    I started here on the subject of how old the earth is. And this morning a thought came into my mind, and it must be written down, cant hold it back:
    In Genesis 1 the creation is described.
    On the fourth day God said, let there be lights in the expanse of the sky… God made two great lights…. He also made the stars.

    Now if God did this 6000 years ago, on the 4 th day, how could we see these stars?
    If these stars started to shine 6000 years ago, how many could we see now? Yet when we look into the sky at night, we look at stars who sended their light out millions of years ago. We look into history when we see the stars. The light we see was sent long long time ago. Longer the 6000 years.

    God made heaven and earth, a huge task, and in only one chapter of the bible, in Genesis 1 He gives a description of how He did it. A very complicated story, just in one chapter. Couldn’t it be that we must read Genesis 1 as an allegory.
    (Like for instance in Ezekiel 16 we find an allegory of unfaithful Jerusalem, the description is not literally).

    I could stop here, just to leave you with this thought.

    While I am writing this another thought appears:
    Jesus mentioned: I saw Satan fall from heaven. Luke 10:18.
    When Adam was created, Satan was already fallen, and in the form of a snake he came to Adam and Eve.
    In Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:11-17 this fall of Lucifer is described. It must have been a great revolt, a terrible thing that happened. He was cast down to the earth. So the earth already was around.
    If we take this account in Genesis literal, where in these 6 days would this revolt of the fallen angels have happened?

    Sorry for going on, but this is a concerm I have: We have this most important task of telling the world of the Salvation that is in Christ.
    Colossians 1:13-14 For He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son He loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
    And then we say, the earth is only 6000 years old.
    This dominion of darkness has been around for a long time.
    And when you would follow classes of Evolution you would find the devastation that has been going around at different era’s. Huge impacts. You must have seen some films of the era of the dinosours that have been wiped out.
    This earth has been around a long time, and it was not a pleasant place.

    The dinosours are gone, and then suddenly, there appear more complicated forms of animals. Suddenly, no slow progression. What does that mean, my dear christian friends? That these fossiles are no proof of evolution, it is impossible they could have evolved by themselves, after the dinosours were gone. Something else must have happened, Somebody must have created them there.

    I say it again, my very dear christian friends, do not be afraid of all these fossiles, look into it, and you will find that a long history will open up to you, God has been around here on earth, and has done many wonderful things.
    And at some point, 6000 years ago, He decided to start the human race.
    It is said in Psalm 104:30 When You send your Spirit, they are created, and You renew the face of the earth.

    Sorry for keeping you here for so long. But please, sometimes you have to reshuffle the way you look at some sriptures. Not all of them, just a few. God still did send his Son, everything in the Old Testament looks forward to that. Nothing changes the Gospel of Chist, when the earth is older the six thousand years.
    Genesis 3 :15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.
    Already then is the coming of the Son predicted. But also this verse is allegorical. Because Jesus was not literally striken at his heel, well He was, but so was His whole body.

    This blog is used to discuss things, to look things from different angles, and my conrcern is that we as christians do not make a fool of ourselves in areas where we do not have to be fools. Let us be looked down upon because of the foolishness of the Cross, but not on other areas. Let us be wise.

    I wish you all the best and the deep love of our Lord Jeus, do not let that be robbed away, by things which are not very clear to you yet.
    (PS If I may sound to you as patronising, I do not wish to be so, but I wish you to be wise).

  106. foreverblessed says:

    In addition to the post just above:
    You could read Genesis 1 as following:
    verse 1 is the beginning: God created the heavens and the earth.
    then there is a big gap of millions of years,
    and then v3 starts, and literally in 6 days, God created the world as it is now.
    And from the lineage of Adam we come to about 6000 years.

  107. pegramsdell says:

    Wise as serpents and gentle as doves. :)

  108. poohpity says:


    Just in the genealogy listed there are thousands of years but with science and the amount of years they suggest there has been it is only theory. No one really knows. The carbon testing they do still is but a guess they really have no point of reference to accurately determine with no uncertainty anything. It is a theory only God knows for sure. I believe there were dinosaurs but have no idea how their exact time frame works. We can find out one day.

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