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The Meaning of a Head and Body

Some of the most gruesome events of the Iraq war involved the beheading of enemies by terrorist cells. Yet long ago,

David did it to the Philistine giant, Goliath (1Samuel 17). The Philistines later beheaded King Saul and hung his headless body on the city wall of Beth Shan (1Sam 31:9). John the Baptist suffered the same fate after challenging the marriage of Herod Antipas to Herod’s brother’s wife (pictured here in this 1607 Caravaggio painting).

Now let’s fast forward to the Biblical use of “head” and “body” to describe the (intended) relationship of  husband and wife… and ultimately Christ and his Body on earth (Ephesians 5:23).

Regarding marriage, endless debate has swirled around the question of whether “head” in the head-body analogy of husband and wife implies authority, leadership, source, or something else.

There appears, however, to be a profound implication that we can miss if we’re not willing to stomach the gruesome image of a beheading. Imagine a table with a head sitting on a plate, and a headless body propped up in a chair. Then try to find pride in either the head or the body of this mental picture. Try to find a spark of life in the eyes of the head without the body, or some meaningful movement of the body without the head.

The conclusion seems apparent. If our idea of what the “head” in marriage means lends itself to pride, control, forced authority,  neglect, or independence, then we are missing the Divinely intended interdependence of head and body– to work together, to care for and protect one another– for their shared good.

In this word picture: the head willingly and purposely exists for the body, just as the body exists for the head.

Here, however, is where this word picture of head and body seems, at first, dangerousand then overwhelmingly loving. The Bible pictures Christ as the head of his body, the Church (Eph 5:31-32).

Many of us readily acknowledge the love that put Christ on the cross in our behalf. But how much have we thought about the love that voluntarily bound Christ to the Church as his Body?

Here’s where we have to be so careful. (I don’t have the wisdom or knowledge to even understand what I’m saying. But of this I’m sure:) By identifying himself with the Church (think of Church history as well),  our Lord has been willing to associate himself with an enormous and inexpressible mix of good and evil in order to offer himself–and then to bind/unite himself to us.

Many of us don’t even like to admit a relationship to parts of the Church that we don’t agree with (or that have hurt us). Yet our risen Lord links his future and his present Name and reputation with all of us who take his name.

Try to imagine the risk of reputation that he has endured to come to our rescue. Can we even begin to weigh the implications of the way he has voluntarily made the expression of his love on earth– dependent on our willingness to be dependent on Him…living his life through us?

I’m not sure that I even begin to get the mystery and the wonder that the Apostle Paul alludes to when, after describing the word picture of head and body in marriage, he writes, “For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church” (Eph 5:29-32).

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58 Responses to “The Meaning of a Head and Body”

  1. Jerome says:

    I haven’t read your blog before, but your look at that analogy of the head/body was breathtaking. I immediatley thought about my own relationship with my wife (which I think is pretty good). I have a new way of thinking about it.
    Also, I think about the MANY people I know who say that love Christ but want NOTHING to do with the church because of its obvious scars. Having been unsuccessful at turning them, maybe this thought would share some light. Thanks.

  2. SFDBWV says:

    We have had much discussion and disagreement on the subject of Husband and wife, Head of…But this morning as I read Mart’s message I am reminded of Hosea.

    Hosea, we read, is told by God to marry a whore. Knowing that she will be unfaithful to her husband, just as Israel is unfaithful to God. However Hosea ends up rescuing Gomer, just as God ends up rescuing Us.

    We have played the harlot and gone after other gods, yet God made a way for us to be bought back, at a very high price.

    For me this is the picture of what it means to be the head. In the unit of husband and wife.

    As Christ is the head of the Church (body), the husband is the head of the marriage union. As exampled by God’s willingness to do everything in order to save the union (marriage) of Christ and man. To do more than just die for it. But to become less than He was, in order to redeem us back to Him.

    Christ is the head of His body the Church, the husband is the head of his body, the marriage union.

    There will be much room here for debate. So I will quickly throw out a couple thoughts.

    Is every marraige a God blessed union?
    What about divorce?
    What about abuse?

  3. RachelMary says:

    Hi Mart and all,
    I’ve been following your blog and converstions for just over two months now. Much of what you say reminds me of things my parents say, and shows me how what they say comes out of the Bible.
    Yesterday I was looking around this blog and read Mart’s article on The Submittion Riddle, I had a thought that I think fits here.
    It is normal to hear people say there must be give and take for a marriage to be successfull, but my parents have always said ‘No, marriage is 100% give.’ I’ve thought the receiving was important to give value to the other partner but I’m begining to think 100% giving will take care of that.
    Shifting perspective, Christ gave himself 100% for this fallen sinful world and while he paid the full price for sin so our acceptance would be free the responce He askes is that we give ourselves to Him 100% – there’s something I’m working on. So I’m back to; not give and take but 100% give. Ofcourse I know I have nothing to offer unless it is blessed by Him.
    Here’s a quote ; Becoming a Christian is like becoming a member of a club in which the joining fee is nothing, but the annual subscription is everything you’ve got.
    Hope I’m not off topic,
    best regards

  4. dependent says:

    Thought provoking…thanks again Mart. The concept of the risen Christ as head of His body, the Church, is mind boggling.

    Hoping not to stretch the analogy to breaking point here, but the interdependence of head and body is striking. We believers individually are said to be “in Christ” and in turn, as we follow Him, we can each choose to progressively learn to allow the “Christ in us” to direct our actions.

    So here’s where your words brought me:

    In Christ, we are His spiritual body. Christ in us is the directing head.

    Does it follow then that indwelling Holy Spirit, sent by Christ, can be accurately seen as the spiritual “central nervous system”? That One who enables the union and interdependence you describe? That vine-like system that brings life, directs fruitful actions, leads to Truth, comfort and power to express His will on earth as it is in Heaven?

    Our body’s central nervous system serves to link all the individual parts (through the head) for intricate and instantaneous communication. To bring unity of purpose and coordination and healing response to pain.

    Without that abiding presence of the Spirit of Christ, many have, are, and will claim to be a part of His body. Tares among the wheat, false prophets, and wolves among the sheep.

    But as the old saying goes–you can park yourself in the garage and keep repeating “I am a car, I am a car”, but my friend, that don’t make you a car.”

    Thanks Mart for reminding us of the love and intimate union that Christ provides His own. May I learn to completely yield my members to the direction of the Holy Spirit so that I may reflect the glory, and protect the reputation, of my risen Lord.

  5. poohpity says:

    I got to thinking about those old scifi movies where there were containers that had brains or heads hooked up to all those wires and chemicals to keep it alive. It could look around, smell and listen but it could do nothing except depend on something else to provide for it so it was pretty much useless except for being wise but it could not act on it. It also had to depend on mechanical supplication which who knows if that could ever happen except in the mind of the scifi writer. Point is that a head without a body to do it’s work it is for nothing. When someone has some sort of mental incapacity the body does not function well either so both need to function together with one goal in mind bringing Glory to God by working harmoniously for the common good.

    We were not created to be independent but dependent on God and interdependent with each other. Gosh can you imagine if we went around everyday and considered what would be best for the other guy rather than just seeking to satisfy our own needs all the time.

    This discussion and the reading for today has really opened my eyes to my prayers that I was waiting for answers. It is better to be merciful than right.

  6. SFDBWV says:

    I love Biblical mysteries. They cause me to search deeper.

    I know that God created the concept of marriage in the Garden, with Adam and Eve.

    Where in the Bible is the marriage ceremony laid out. I mean of course whereas it is done today? Is there a rite or passage that God explained to us to preform? Something private or public some exchange of vows, outlined in the Bible?

    If a couple gets married at the courthouse, is it a marriage under God?

    I understand that two become one flesh. But if one dies the other is permitted to marry again. Does this mean the original marriage is no longer considered one flesh. Since the second marriage would also be a joining of the flesh?

    Jesus said that it was suppose to be one man one wife. But that God allowed for divorce to apease man. So what of people who have been in multiple marriages?

    Jesus also said that in Heaven there is no marriage. So what then becomes of husband and wife as they enter heaven? Are the now seperate people?

    Paul was right, a great mystery.

    I can understand the word picture of Christ the Head, and we, His body, the Church, are to work together as one entity. We go wherever He leads us and do the work He directs of us.

    What then of the comming marriage feast? If we are now already joined with Christ as in the marriage concept of being one. Is the feast the celebration of the wedding that is already a reality?

    Or is ther a new marriage of the Church and the Lamb?

    Sorry for all the questions but for me it ia also a great mystery.

  7. bubbles says:

    if this is too far off topic, please delete it.

    Steve, I’ve often wondered about the marriage supper of the Lamb. For lack of a better word, wouldn’t it be neat to have Jesus sit down with us and do the Passover with us? Asked a pastor friend about this one time, and he said he didn’t know, he’d not been to heaven yet. :)

  8. Loretta Beavis says:

    When I studied physiology, and all those related ‘ologies, the word ‘homeostasis’ existed. In order for an organism to be successful (I think they mean “stay alive”), it must have a degree of freedom from the environment.

    The head of a human body has the brain-a control center that directs all the activity of the body to be successful/free from the environment. Brains are not pretty, witty, mobile and are very fragile, not heavily armored, (why I wear a helmet when I ride) and “give” all of what they are for me to survive the external environment. When the head is cut off, think of a chicken, the body may still move, but it is out of control and the body functions are short-lived. (morgues report bodies that sit up in rigor mortis).

    Christ as the Head, the Church as the Body … He is the spiritual control center that gives the Body eternal homeostasis (life). Responding to the guidance of the Head, the Body can exist in the world (environment) with success (love) and stand in spiritual warfare. The Head sets us free from the environment. He even restores what’s broken and damaged with new growth or a scar (new flesh). (I believe our spiritual “heart” is in our brain somehow; and, that the ‘one flesh’ of marriage is spiritual flesh (body), a unity of two spirits (husband and wife) submitting to God – the spiritual Head.

    So a marriage, or an individual or the Church without The Head doesn’t live long spiritually; runs around directionless (flesh with flesh cut off) and making a mess everywhere. Sometimes a mortal body has a problem and activity goes backward-my stomach e-mails the head: I’m “hungry’ but it’s still full of food.

    I believe that when spiritual ‘homeostasis’ exists in marriage, our willingness to be dependent on Him, telling Him what is happening to us and trusting His directions, we better represent Christ to the world.

    His love is supernatural. I’ll be thinkin’ about this topic a lot. I love my Jesus

  9. foreverblessed says:

    Thanks for starting this subject of marriage with v 23 of Ephesians 5, and not v 22.
    This is, as you say, a profound mystery-but I am speaking of Christ and the church. v32
    The discussion could go on for a long time, and still we wil not get the depth of what Paul wrote here.
    Christ did all of this for the joy that was set before him. He was enjoying the fact that a Body of believers were created by His sacrifice.
    Rejoice, we are told Phil 4:4.
    And here we are on earth, man and woman, and struggling in marriage, instead of enjoying each other.
    Rejoicing with one another as the Body of Christ.

  10. diamonds says:

    Mart, this is a thought-provoking post! And a good place to go after the last discussion. The “body” topic makes me think about Ephesians 4:1-6. “…walk worthy of the calling you have received, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, ACCEPTING ONE ANOTHER IN LOVE (my emphasis), diligently keeping the unity of the Spirit with the peace that binds us. There is ONE BODY (emphasis mine)and one Spirit…” I think we often forget that we are a part of ONE BODY because we are so programmed to focus on what divides us. We love categorizing/dividing/distinguishing ourselves from one another. However, once we accept the wonderful gift of salvation, we become a part of his ONE BODY. Does that mean we all look, like, and act the same? Absolutely not! That would mean we would be focusing on an outward change. It is by faith/abiding in Him that we become one. I believe God loves diversity! Even nature shows us what love our creator has for diversity. As we grow in Him, His fruit (borne out of an inner transformation in us) becomes evident in our lives. We will then look alike because of our LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, KINDNESS, GOODNESS, FAITH, GENTLENESS, and SELF-CONTROL! How AWESOME is that? One body and one head! “…one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.” Let’s not grumble and complain against the different body parts. I’m often reminded of the the response Jesus gave Peter when Peter asked about John’s future. Basically, Jesus said MYOB. Mind your own business. You follow me. Many body parts, different functions, but only ONE head—Jesus Christ! Thanks be to God for His unspeakable GIFT!

  11. poohpity says:

    I believe in the old testament the first time we get to see how a marriage took place was with Isaac and Rebekah. The servant found her by direction from God brought her back to Isaac, he took her off the camel into his mother’s tent and laid with her. Oh for it to be so simple, lol. So I do not believe in any of the bible the ceremony is laid out in anyway just what is to happen after. I was wrong the first one told about was Adam and Eve created for each other.

    What God has joined together let no man put asunder Matthew 19:6 is the only thing I see about the marriage that we have in today’s ceremonies.

    As far as a partner dieing and marriage in heaven. Two being one flesh I believe is talking about how to care for each other. In a marriage there is to me such a commitment that after God that relationship is primary to the exclusion of anybody else. One does not run around joined at the hip but have a common goal and purpose.

    When people divorce which is not recommended because that is extra weight on a already tough relationship. It is hard on everyone.

    The marriage feast was something that took place after the ceremony in celebration. When we are finally united in our fullness to the Lamb, not just a part of us our spirit but the whole nine yards then the feast will begin. All the things we think about here on this earth will be left behind, gender, race, money, possessions, control and desires to stand in the presence of God Almighty. I know we will not think about anything else but God. That is the final joining of us totally with God. That will be an eternal celebration not for a limited time but for always.

    I have given my life to Christ and claim Him as my husband here and learning to be submissive to His will is very difficult for me because I am so used to being in control of the household only to get brought to my knees regularly. Realizing that if I am going to trust Him with my life then I want His will not my own. Out of all the other choices who better to trust with my well being than the one who knows even the number of hairs on my head.

    As far as getting married for the flesh that will never happen again. I do not know whether I could ever give myself to trust and love someone that much and I would be to scared.

  12. Princely7777 says:

    Many of us readily acknowledge the love that put Christ on the cross in our behalf. But how much have we thought about the love that voluntarily bound Christ to the Church as his Body?

    Here’s where we have to be so careful. (I don’t have the wisdom or knowledge to even understand what I’m saying. But of this I’m sure:) By identifying himself with the Church (think of Church history as well), our Lord has been willing to associate himself with an enormous and inexpressible mix of good and evil in order to offer himself–and then to bind/unite himself to us.

    Many of us don’t even like to admit a relationship to parts of the Church that we don’t agree with (or that have hurt us). Yet our risen Lord links his future and his present Name and reputation with all of us who take his name.

  13. wretch-like-me says:

    Mart, love the way you are led by the Spirit to ask joint-piercing questions. Candidly, I was left troubled by our last session; a bit unsettled by questions raised and left unanswered.

    When someone ‘pushes the envelope’ of understanding and forces me to rethink what I have taken as fact, it shakes me at the foundation and ‘concrete crumbles’.

    It’s a bit easier coming from someone with which I have built a relationship. At some point, realizing that neither of us is going to change viewpoints, the best resolution is to agree to disagree in mutual respect. Unfortunately many times it ‘blows up’ into a ‘heated, angry, blind shouting match’ terminating the relationship. How easy it is to be blinded by the beam in my own eye while trying to remove the cinder from anothers’!

    This may seem off topic; but, I assure you I am coming to a relevant point.

    Your topic this a.m. forced me into thoughts about… Christ, as head of the body of Christ, suffering still at the hands of His own body of believers bickering about differences, condemning each others actions, coming to blows verbally over issues that continue to plague us 2,000 years after His ultimate act of Love and Redemption.

    I am so feeble. I ‘work out my salvation’ mentally by developing ‘creeds’ based on what I CAN understand; cling desperately to dogma because I realize if I allow it to be chipped away before long I have nothing to stand on. I forget the unchanging, unshakeable ‘rock’ that is Christ Jesus, the expression of God’s Love in Flesh, the Living Word.

    God created us for one purpose; to have fellowship with Him. RELATIONSHIP… Christ came; lived; loved; taught; suffered; died; arose; and ascended that we might be restored to a relationship with God. We speak of salvation in terms of relationship with Christ; but, sadly, we add our own agendas like ‘lint on a sweater’ until sometimes it masks the entire sweater.

    Yesterday’s announcement by the American Lutheran Denomination recognizing ‘practicing homosexual clergy’ as officially acceptable is still shaking me to the core. I wonder how Christ as Head of the Church is feeling. Yet, we are part of this body because Lutherans name the name of Jesus as Savior.

    We are all flawed. ‘All have fallen short of the glory that is God.’ What grief have I caused Jesus for my own misunderstandings and actions that fall short of His Glory?

    Sakoieta names the name of Jesus, calls himself a christian; yet, I have disagreements with how he has collected ‘lint’ on his sweater. What right do I have to do anything more than share my own beliefs and support them with my experiences, my witness, my testimony…just as he has the same rights.

    How confusing it is to think that shortly after Christ left the earth (within the first 100yrs), no one who witnessed His ministry first hand was still alive to give testimony or answer questions. We have the Holy Spirit. We have the written record. We have the Word.

    But, as we witnessed with Sakoieta, it is disputed.

    Ultimately, it comes down to our personal relationship with Christ Jesus. The Lord chooses us with specific ministries in mind… the weight of each is tailored to our ‘shoulders’. God help us to see clearly the path He has chosen for us.

    I am continually reminded how ‘good’ we Americans have it. We have leisure time that affords us opportunity to ‘philosophize’ and devote time to things other than making a living. I caution myself as I remember verses about ‘…those to whom much has been given…much will be required.’

    There are those today who (given the authority) would amputate portions of the body of Christ. They would judge those ‘infected’ parts as too far gone with ‘gangrene’ to be saved; yet, Christ does not grant that authority or does He? Matt.16:18-20;18:1-35

    Forgive my long-winded ramblings.

  14. poohpity says:

    There are many who cry Lord, Lord and Jesus says, “Away with you I knew you not”. It agree that there are many who say they are “Christian” yet what they believe is far from the truth and some argue that truth is determined by each person reality. You know the wheat and tares scenario. The Lord is still the Lord of all with the desire that one day every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord of all. God is our heritage and our portion forever. Are we perfect no, will we ever be, not in this life. That is the reason we do not look to man but to God. It would be nice to have someone to look up to and follow as an example and we have that in Jesus Christ but will not be found in a human being because we are human beings and Jesus is God. Any man who says follow me is calling attention to himself and not directing us to God.

    Even where we go to an organized church building we have to ask is this teaching consistent with the bible. You really got to read that bible to know for sure and God will reveal His principles and the limited amount He reveals of Himself to us. We have to really look to the head and stop following the body it can lead one astray at times. The foundation at that time will not be broken.

  15. wretch-like-me says:

    You are so right, thanks for reminding me that there will be a time when the Lord of Hosts will separate the tares from the wheat, the goats from the sheep, and the ‘wannabees’ from the ‘faithful’.

    God help us to keep our lamps full of oil and our hearts filled with HIS LOVE.


  16. daisymarygoldr says:

    It is good to be reminded that this far-from-perfect earthly marriage is a picture of God’s original purpose regarding the perfect marriage of Christ and the church.

    The profound implication of the head-body analogy was very good! You are so right in stating that Christ cannot exist without a body and we the body cannot walk around headless i.e. without subjecting ourselves to His loving authority.

    The revelation of church was a mystery to the prophets, the apostles and the first followers of Christ who were all Jews and had no clue about God’s plan salvation that also extended to the Gentiles.

    However, today for us Paul’s writings make it plain to understand that according to God’s pre-determined plan both Jews and Gentiles are now made as one in the body of Christ. “… The Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all” (Gal 4:26).

    After the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, God gave Him another body— a spiritual Body made of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39). At present Jesus is invisible but is made visible in His mystical body of believers.

    A body with many members that are sinners called out of every nation, tribe and language to be redeemed and cleansed of their sinful, ethnic, cultural and social past to be no longer called as Jews or Greek, slave or free, male or female… but to represent one new creation i.e. Jesus Christ.

  17. daisymarygoldr says:

    As to why Jesus chose such a sinful and ugly bride will always elude my human mind. Spotted with numerous divisions that are marked with strife and jealousy there is nothing noble or becoming of her character. The scars left due to petty politics, internal squabbles of her carnal nature and her despicable whoring after the things of this world, the church is definitely no beauty to behold.

    Nevertheless, as a part of that precious body, it humbles me to know He loved her enough to die for her. How can I call her unclean when He has sealed her as forgiven and clean to be unto Him a chaste virgin?

    As His chosen bride it therefore, compels me to be conscious of my chastity and remain faithful to our marriage covenant with Christ. …and yes, in order to cleave and become one… it is also necessary to first severe all ties with my past… to forsake the things of this world that belong to their father (the devil).

    After all we are separated and sanctified to be His one and only bride. There is no other body in this whole wide world that can claim “my beloved is mine and I am His and His banner over me is love!”

    The risk that our Savior took to put off divinity and put on humanity is unimaginable… it spurs me to stay submissive to His authority that requires me to go through a transformation to become beautiful.

    The purifying process is no fun but the assuring words of love which He whispers into my ears help me endure… calms me to be still during the painful removal of ugly scars, uncomely pimples and unwanted hair! It is so important for us His bride to be presented as perfect and Holy for the King of kings and Lord of lords to literally dwell amongst us some day in His appointed time.

    So, as I look forward to our Lord’s return, His grace enables me to obey His commands to love God and to love my fellow Christians i.e. the other members of His body. Not the kind of false love which the world liberally pours out but the true love of God expressed on the cross…

    …the love that continues to love despite being hated, rejected, persecuted, offended and hurt…the love of Christ that covers all sins and readily forgives to keep no record of wrongs… the love that leads us to lay down our lives for our brothers.

    It takes God’s love to love God to His utmost satisfaction. “See what love the Father has given us that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know Him…And every one who thus hopes in Him purifies himself as He is pure.” (1 John 3:1-3)

  18. SFDBWV says:

    Daisy, you are a beautiful person.

    Pooh, thanks for your insights.

    Bubbles, you are right, all answers will be given, when we can set and ask the Lord, Himself.

    Frank, I also was left unsettled from my encounter with our friend Sakoieta. In my zeal to defend my beliefs, I forgot that others are just as zealous concerning their own.
    In my attempt for everyone to see the world according to Steve, I failed in being able to discuss the matter without bringing out anger in others.

  19. xrgarza says:

    Thank you Mart, I have been married more than once, as a Christian man to Christian women who have not understood this concept. I believe that the feminist movement that has taken our nation by storm and for a lack of a better word to use has trickled into the church. Don’t get me wrong, I am not putting blame on the women, I fall into this category as well because I bought in to it, heck everyone else is doing it.

    In recent years I have been learning so much about this, we can’t force anyone into submission. So it has to start way before marriage and intentionally.

    Christ refers to Himself as the head or the groom and refers to the church as the body or the bride. The Bible tells us that He has gone to prepare a place for the body/His bride.

    I believe this is what we men need to be doing, before marriage we should be preparing a place to bring our brides to. Our mortgages for one should not be the responsibility of our brides, since their number one need in a relationship is security. I don’t believe that the Lord is going to have us help him with the mortgage of the place that He is preparing for us.

    Many if not all would argue that it’s not feasible because it would take too long, but imagine for a minute, how long it’s taking our Lord to prepare a place for us.

    This is my goal, it may take me another five years, but if money really is the number one cause of divorce should I not actively be pursuing an antidote to this problem before marriage or should I just dive into marriage because everyone else is doing it, and this is the status quo?


  20. xrgarza says:

    PS: I recently met a lady that understands this concept better than I can explain it myself. Her desire is to live in a home where her husband is the head and leader spiritually and naturally.

    Two things I find intriguing about this lady, one she is not a Christian, two she is not an American citizen either. Hmmm is this problem isolated to America?


  21. Sakoieta says:

    Interesting little note I had sent to me this morning from a Cherokee friend of mine. She is a very strong Christian as well as a very strong traditionalist. Her little note reminds me of the teachings we find in Job as well as God teachings to seek out the ancient paths.

    Sorry my presence has given you difficulty, Steve and Frank. I only share what the Lord has given me to share from a different prespective than yours only because it is just that…different. I am not a Bible worshipper. I worship the Creator as he has revealed himself to me. The Bible is only one of the tools I use that allows me to understand the Creator better. Our cultural teachings are another since they also come from God. Nature is another as it teaches in Job. “Look to the earth and the earth will teach thee.”

    I also do not believe in separating the head from the body. In that, part of my understanding is that Jesus cannot be separated from God the Father, as such the work Jesus did on earth has to consistently also expound on the work God has done with the nations of the world to lead to fuller more complete revelation of God. Yet each nation is going to have a piece of God that even in the end with full revelation is still going to be different than others. I believe God has created the nations as a body and the work of Jesus cannot be separate from that if it is based on the truth of the Creator.

    Anyways here are the words she shared.

    “Each of you should continue to live in whatever situation the Lord has placed you, and remain as you were when God first called you. This is my rule for all the churches.”– Apostle Paul He went on to tell them to live culturally as they …had before, and not give up their cultural practice for any other cultural practice.

    Enough for now.

  22. foreverblessed says:

    All of you, thanks for your comments. DMG , I was going to write something similar: Christ saved me, but I am not wholy perfect, there are still parts in me that are not pure light. And so it is with the Church.

    That is called sanctification. He cleanses me. And that hurts. As you wrote.
    WML, the discussion was a bit heavy, but yet I think it purifies us. If we all think over what we wrote. I, for instance should have been more gentle too.
    A lot of questions have been asked, And I think that some of them are good, God meant it, so that we be purified of wrong thinking.
    Sometimes the questions are to direct, but nevertheless it is worth thinking about it. You said you cling to the dogma’s about Jesus. But isn’t it better to cling to Jesus Himself. Because dogma states what we humans think about Jesus, And Jesus, and His salvation maybe bigger than what we think of Him.
    What the bible says, is different than what the Bible does not say.

    He says: All who call on His name are saved.
    God does not say: All who do not call upon His name before they die are not saved.
    See the difference?

    We humans often fill in what God did not say.
    One more example: It says: Sinners will go into the ever burning furnace.
    But it does not say: Sinners will forever burn in hell.
    See the difference?

    I liked it very much SFWVD, the way you evaluated your discussion with Sakoieta. Allthough what I figured that you two were smoking the peace pipe alright!
    It was very good he came and hussled all of us christians in our stereotype answer and questions, as he stated that.

    We could grow into more loving discussions.
    Me too, wanting to ask questions: do you believe in Jesus, do you believe that Jesus is the Messaiah? As we are commanded in 1 John 4: 1-12
    But how to do that in love, I do not know, And most of the time it is none of our business to ask.
    We need so much to listen to what the Spirit tells us what to say, or what to do.
    And if we failed, we ask forgiveness, learn from it, and grow in it. The next time we will be more like Christ.
    But some say; That will not do. Why will that not do? Can we not repent and grow?
    Many things stated here, but we must test the spirits, we must do that ourselves.
    And leave the rest to God, we are not to judge others as many already wrote, we must judge ourselves,
    2 Corinthians 13:5-10.

  23. foreverblessed says:

    After reading the post of Mart, on the head and body, that night I had a dream. I was in a big arena, filled with christians, I walked to the inner ring, and there were children tossing carts, and on the side the carts fell, what was written on that side, so the preaching was. I thought in the dream: we should not be busy with fortune, luck or coincidence.
    But then I looked and saw a head on the podium, preaching. Just the head, and preaching. It was not scary, it was weird. No body attached to it.
    But it talked allright. It was a womans head too.
    And I thought after waking up. Are we not too busy with our own heads, too much thinking. And since it was a womans head, it might referr to me. Too much thinking about what to write, and how to write it on this blog.
    (Pastors must have this problem too, every week a new sermon.)
    But maybe it means something else as well.
    We should be part to the Body, and maybe I want to be too much of a head, in the meaning of too much thinking

  24. Sakoieta says:

    Good thoughts, foreverblessed.
    One correction though, Mohawks don’t smoke a peace pipe nor do we have one. That is a different tribal tradition than ours, but not to worry, ;) even other tribes get that wrong too. LOL.

    We believe and teach the longest journey a person is ever going to take in their life is the journey from head to heart and back again. A person of wisdon is one who has made that journey and uses the wisdom gained in the work they do on behalf of the Creator.

    I remember a story once of Chief who had listened to the words of a missionary and then later showed up at the missionaries door with his village members with him. He told the missionary, We have our beliefs in an almighty Creator they are not different than yours. You have told us that to enter the Creators land we need to have the mark of the four directions (+) put on our foreheads. I and my people have come to you for you to do this for us. The missionary told the chief that could not be done since the path to the Creator’s land was an individual one and he, the missionary needed to make sure each person, individualy understood personal salvation. The chief looked at him and responded all of us believe the teachings of the Creator to us…we ask you to give us the mark. The missionary said no. The chief and his people left and from that time forward would no longer allow that missionary entrance to their villages… so who separated the head from the body? and why? I believe it was because only of differences in the way they practice their belief. I think the one who was lost here was the missionary not the chief or villagers. It goes right back to the Peter, the Christian – Cornelius, the unChristian, story. Peter looked at Cornelius as unholy, not of God and in order for God to do the prep work necessary for Peter to be able to accept Cornelius as an equal it was Peter who needed the real conversion experience. God gave to him, in a vision things that Peter’s belief said were filthy and unclean. God had to open his eyes for him to realize it is only God who has the right to declare what is clean or unclean. Peter it says was amazed when the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius. God is always at work allowing the body to grow. But does the nose say everything or every one who is part of the body has to be the nose? Our people are a part of the body but we may not be the part of the body that experiences the work of God as a nose or eye or ear would, never-the-less we were created to be part of the body and as the body matures, it grows, and changes. So do we in our understanding of our resposibility to the Creator and his work with us.

  25. poohpity says:


    Many blame the feminist movement for the lack of submission of the women but I would pose another question. Maybe it could be that the feminist movement started because of the lack of good leadership from men. The abuse, lack of taking responsibility for fathering children, spiritual immaturity, infidelity, stuff worship, career worship, emotional immaturity and many more things that can be mentioned for the reason that women had to step up to the plate. Someone had to do it. Then after seeing our men like this women have grown fearful of trusting themselves completely to someone who can not be put in the responsible role of a leader.

    It seems men have taken either a role of a dictator or a child. Things are all messed up because of sin and it is a shame but along with everything else stop blaming and start taking responsibility for our own flaws rather than looking at each other and pointing a finger.

  26. SFDBWV says:

    Good day to you, Sakoieta, please do not misunderstand, your presence isn’t a difficulty but rather a refreshing and humbling one for me.

    A question, if I may?
    How in your tribal tradition does a man take a wife?


  27. Sakoieta says:

    Since we are matriarchal people, (this means we follow the mother’s lineage), when we are born we take the mother’s clan as ours. It is also taught in our culture that man and women stand side by side in equality, but each having different responsibilities. Since we are matriarchal the man is seen as being created to be the woman’s helper if he marries, since the woman is the life-giver and brings the children into the world through her body as that sacred doorway. She is the center of the home and they work together, but she is seen has having the authority in the house, while the man traditionally had it outside the house and in the woods or forest. His job was to go out and bring her what she needs to make the home a loving, warm, good and hospitable place. She is also the one with the main responsibility for teaching the children their values, beliefs, customs until they get to the age of puberty, then the boys go with the uncles and dads while the girls go with mom and the aunties.

    In our tradition, then, the men woo the woman they wish to be united with. It is the women who have the choice of who they wish to be with. Earlier in our history this was sometimes done by almost like arranged marriages. A family would look for a boy for their daughter to partner with and then see how the two of them get along. Here is some of the criteria… the chosen one has to be a different clan than the girl so there is no possibility of incest.
    The person has to…
    …be kind
    …be gentle in the way they relate to others
    …know their language
    …know their ceremonies
    …how do they treat their parents
    …how do they talk, are they clean in their speech
    …are they given to argument
    …have they ever committed sexual sins
    …have they ever taken a life
    …are they generous
    …are they kind to animals
    …do they pray and follow their faith
    …are they a good worker
    …how are they around children
    …are they honest and truthful

    these are just some of the things a girl or young man would look for in a partner, as well as their family.
    If a young man passes these tests he would be considered a suitable partner for the girl. We do not believe in nuclear families but very much affirm the extended family system.

    Today we have some who still follow this way while others who were denied this knowledge, because they had been taken away into residential schools, use the dominant culture’s way of selecting partners.

  28. Sakoieta says:

    This is where missionaries got into trouble with our people, when they came teaching the Godly way of living is to recognize that Christ is the head of man as man is the head of the house. In our culture it is the woman who is the main authority in the home, while a man helps her. Women were the land owners, they own the right to name the children, the own the right to nominate a man for leadership as well as the right to start efforts at deposing him if he does not do his job of following the people’s will while in office. If the marriage dissolved it was the man who had his belongings put outside the house and he went back home to mama. Those of our people, who were taken away and forcibly taught European customs in the guise of it being declared as “Christian”, follow the man as head belief, but the traditionalists still follow that man and woman stand as equals in the sight of the Creator with the woman given ownership of the home while the man does his work in the outer world.

  29. foreverblessed says:

    Thanks Sakoieta,
    -that man and women stand side by side in equality –
    What a lot we could learn from what you wrote.
    After looking in what Jesus did for us, submitting himself unto death, and after that, what Mart wrote,ephesians 5:23-32
    can we not come to the same conclusion?:
    Husband and wife mutually supporting one another.

  30. saled says:

    My daughter’s wedding was yesterday, so this is a timely and poignant subject for me. Our new son-in-law has lived in our home for the past year, and we know his faults as well as our daughters. We don’t see the traditional husband as head of the house relationship happening here. Maybe the interdependence is the important thing, and maybe that is why God said man was to leave father and mother and cleave unto his wife. This is a good reminder to me to keep that goal that they become dependent on each other in mind. I know I am way too prone to try to jump in and solve problems for my daughter.

  31. SFDBWV says:

    Thank you for your answer Sakoieta.
    There is also an old saying, “A man can build a house, but it takes a woman to make it a home.”

    I have always understood that American democracy, the one person one vote idea. Had it’s roots in the Native American culture.

    Do the Mohawk people chose a Chief by a form of voting? Are there ever women who are selected as Tribal Chief’s?

    I hope I don’t sound like I am quizing you Sakoieta but, I am curious about the differences between your culture and mine.

    I won’t be able to read your answer until tomorrow. As it is our bedtime and we also, rise early.


  32. Sakoieta says:

    As Mohawks, we don’t vote under the traditional system. We are a sovereign nation with our own government, lands, etc. We travel on our own passports around the world. For us there is no U.S. or Canada, we are citizens of Six Nations Iroquois (Haudenosaunee) Confederacy of North America. There are some of our people here in Canada who are under an elected system or what is known as the Indian Act, which was forced on us in 1924 when Canada sent in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, who kicked in the door to our council house and broke into our safes and proclaimed that we were now under Canadian Law..an act of terrorism to us who follow the traditional government, the oldest democracy on this continent. Under the traditional system with each clan, there is a clan mother or head matriarch. She is the one who takes care of her clan and she and the other clan mothers of the clan can appoint a man for the role of Chieftainship. He is then put forward to the other clans to see if anyone has anything against him. He is tested much like I previously mentioned. If he passes the clans then he is stood up in front of the other chiefs. If anyone finds fault they can say so and he will not be “stood up” as a chief. It is all by consensus, no voting. Our people do not vote in U.S. Elections or state or provincial, etc. We do not take part in foreign government activity like the US or Canada. If he passes all the tests he is appointed for life to the position as speaker for his clan or chief. He answers to the clanmother who listens to the voice of those in her clan. He has a subchief with him and a male and female faith keeper as a system of accountability. If he does something wrong or selfish he is warned. If he continues after the third time the clanmother will go with the subchief and faithkeepers and they will depose him because of his dishonesty. No one will ever listen to his voice again. It is true democracy in action. Our chiefs are not only then our political leaders but our spiritual leaders as well. No separation. They are commanded to follow the Great Law of Peace as given to us by the Creator through the Peacemaker. Women take the positions of Clan mothers. They are also appointed by the people.

    In the elected system there have been some women chiefs. But not in the traditional. The women don’t need to be chief they are already able to be clanmothers who select chiefs. They have more authority than the man in this regards.

  33. Sakoieta says:

    Well I find Jesus doing this alot. When he spoke to the Samaritan woman at the well, for example, something not supposed to be done by a Jew. She went and told some men about who she had met. The men, coming back, tried to put her back in her place by diminishing her message to them when they told Jesus, “it is not because of anything she said”. Jesus raised her to equal status. Men tried to put her back down.

  34. johnson baby says:

    Dear all in christ,

    Iam a regular reader of the blog,we are the one of the gathering in middle east, the people are seperated from nominal christian and HINDHU back ground but our leader now became completely selfish and rude and not submitting the holyspirit and acting according to his own revelation we were keeping on praying and advising but nothing change ,many of the spirit filled children left the fellowship praying in home now some our people recieved guidence from the holy spirit to seperate and we are praying together in home but we have our children they need to study church school, anybody who is reading this letter has sundayschool syllabus from 1 to 12 please give us to teach the children and any spiritleading church to guide and help us spiritually to grow please welcome for the spiritual support please contact given email;emai.jbss.sales@gmail.com

  35. SFDBWV says:

    Sakoieta, thank you for your answer.

    Johnson Baby, I will give your email information to my local Pastor a see if we may be able to help you in your efforts.

  36. xrgarza says:


    True, I hope you didn’t interpret that I was putting blame on the movement or on women. The movement is only one piece of this giant puzzle that actually has a name. But to say that it is all the movements fault would be ignorance on my part.

    The Feminist movement started because women wanted equal pay for equal work. A very good and noble reason, but like any other good reason just a slight deviation from its initial goal and its gotten out of control.

    As far as The abuse, lack of taking responsibility for fathering children, spiritual immaturity, infidelity, stuff worship, career worship, emotional immaturity and all the other reasons that can be mentioned for the reason that women had to step up to the plate. I couldn’t agree with you more however it’s not only women stepping up to the plate sadly enough its children also.

    I know that I am not an English major but the point that I was trying to make was not to belittle the movement or women. But to say that I recognize that as a man the wrong that I have participated in and I have repented and have actively chosen to do things differently than to just follow the lead of our society.

    I am surprised that you failed to see that, I did not mean to upset or offend you or anyone else that might have read it that way.

    So please excuse and forgive my ignorance, I will try to make sure that it doesn’t happen again.

    God bless

  37. poohpity says:


    Thank you for the apology but I was in no way angry or hurt. I was just trying to say both genders have messed up to what I believe the Lord intended. I was just concerned about how some men blame women for not being submissive when in reality both have really blown it when it comes to behaviors.

    I thought it was honorable to wait to pay off your house before you get into a relationship but when a women falls in love we want to be part of the process. There is something to be said for working together for a common goal. It sounded like fear of commitment may be a problem. Just some thoughts.

    Thank you for replying to my post.

  38. xrgarza says:


    Thanks for your response; I couldn’t agree with you more. I think that the bigger problem is, I have mentioned this before that it is lack of mentorship. We live in a fatherless society, in and out of our churches.

    Our churches have become spiritual orphanages. We lead people to the Lord and instead of being there with that person for example the next five to twenty years, we feel that our job is done.

    Imagine giving birth to a natural child and after that child is delivered as parents if we were to say “OK my job is done you are on your own” The foster system would raise that child and depending in which state the parents live would spend some time in jail.

    But as Christians this is exactly what is happening, and so as a result, the scriptures are left up to the individual to interpret for themselves In a nutshell of course. Yes they may go to church, yes they may hear a sermon, and yes the pastor is there. But it’s not the pastor’s sole responsibility.

    So when men get married, the only verse they can cling on to when their marriage goes south is the one that God instructs women to submit to their husbands.

    What these men are not learning is that the Bible never says or at least I haven’t seen it yet, “men make sure that your wives are submitting to you” had that person been properly mentored, I believe that the result would be different.

    Now as far as paying off my house, that was a brief analogy of what I was trying to express, yes paying off my house would be nice, I can do it in three to five years and avoid paying interest, and perhaps avoid a divorce.

    If I decide not to wait that long, I at least would like to have my mortgage to be at least equal to or less than what I am currently paying for rent. My home/our home should never be a burden to the family or my spouse. Yes we should work together, but the scriptures never show this example of marrying a woman to gain additional income for the purpose of a dream residence. It has always been the man’s responsibility to be prepared as the provider for his bride and not make it her responsibility. A woman’s number one need is her security, and if I am going to rely on her to provide part of her security that goes against scripture, but totally with our society’s way of thinking.

    No fear of commitment here, simply fear/respect for my heavenly father and the impact that my life has on others. The Apostle Paul told the Ephesians and Galatians Imitate me, if he could do it, then I can do it, and if I can do it then I can teach it to others. I want to be able to live a life that is worthy of people who will imitate me.

  39. poohpity says:

    Gosh it seems that the woman that accepts you as a husband will be greatly blessed. Wish there were more like you, I might consider another try. Oh my gosh what on earth am I saying. I think my coffee may have had the wrong thing in it this morning. LOL :-) Keep on Trucking!!! Stay close to the author of life.

    Respectfully Deborah

  40. xrgarza says:


    Are you coming on to me? :) wah wah wah well that depends what kind of coffee you are drinking. :)

    Seriously I believe that one will put a thousand to flight and two will put ten thousand to flight, imagine how much two can do for each other, the world, and the Lord if they are not only equally yoked after marriage but totally prepared before marriage.

    Following the principles that I have found in scripture teaches me that the Lord is preparing a place for His bride, Idealy I should be doing likewise. He is coming back for a bride without spot or wrinkle, I would like to do the same.

    Which tells me that we should both during this time be preparing ourselves for whats to come.

    Now I have to ask myself, if there is really a woman out there that will someday in fact submit to my leadership as the Bible explains, am I worthy of that kind of honor? Then I have a lot of work to do on myself to deserve and recieve that kind of honor and respect.

    Not many women see the values that I live by as a blessing, what an honor to know that someone out there does, this tells me that my efforts are not in vain.

    Well as for more like me, I can’t wait for that cloning process to be improved, imagine how much more I can do for my Lord and my bride. Just kidding


  41. poohpity says:

    Sorry I no longer do coming on kinda stuff. I gave it up twenty years ago. Cloning, yuk, I can not imagine another one of me walking around, lol.

    I think it is how it is supposed to be getting prepared before we take on the job of marriage. I believe Paul said it so eloquently when he said if you aren’t married when you came to the Lord then stay that way because then your focus will be on the needs of your partner rather than on the Lord. That is a heavy balancing act but I guess it can be done when one puts God first and family second. I however have chosen not to take on such a heavy commitment to both. The Lord is enough for me and I am GTG.

    That is a very big honor and responsibility to be a leader in a marriage. I have had to do it alone physically for the whole time of raising my children
    but for the Lord I would have never been able to do it with any success. Thanks be to God for being my strength and provider.

    When we look to God to teach us to do anything any person will find it a blessing to know you or anyone.

  42. xrgarza says:

    Amen, that’s a good word regarding Paul’s comments and maybe that is why I am enjoying my singleness. I too raised my children by myself; they are now older than me :). My son turned 30 last month and my daughter will be 30 next year. They both moved out 6 months after high school graduation & have not returned.

    I know the world and the people that Lord leads me to on a daily basis would be difficult for any woman to adapt to unless she was already doing that kind of ministry, it would be very difficult for her to accept taking time away from her to do what God has called me to do even if she was a committed Christian.

    It’s hard enough for a woman to accept the fact that some men are expected to work overtime as it is at their regular jobs and then to assume additional time that she might be expecting to be hers would definitely cause conflict.

    I try to live each day as if its my last, but plan and prepare as if I will live forever, I don’t want to be caught like the virgins that were not prepared when the bridegroom appeared.

    If I never get married again, Praise God! if I do, Praise God!

    God Bless you Deborah

  43. poohpity says:

    My daughter will be 32 in nov and one son is 22 and the other 20. It was like having two different families. You were a single dad? That is another kudo for you. Good job dad.

    What type of ministry do you do? If you find the right one she will be glad to fit into your world, God does stuff like that. lol I think living a life in Christ makes one sort of pliable and able to accept change and compromise because you never know when and where you will be sent.

    Thank you for the blessing and back at ya.

  44. xrgarza says:


    Thank you for the kind compliment. Are your young adults still living at home? I have a sister who is about ten years younger than me, that too seemed like an additional family I know what you mean.

    I tried to keep this as short as I could, so if it’s to long please forgive me. :)

    My father died when I was just 13 y/o. I got involved with gangs and drugs and I failed high school at 17 I overdosed using a drug called PCP. By the time I was 23 y/o I had two kids and going through a divorce I just knew that I was one big loser.

    Just a couple of years later I ended up In San Jose, CA and began working for the Intel Corp. My Manager who to this day is not a Christian mentored me and was an image of Christ if I had ever seen one, he sent me back to school and four years later I received an AS in computer technology with a 3.0 GPA.

    One day I was asked if I would go into a public school and give a little presentation to the students about Intel and to encouraging them to seek careers in engineering. After about ten minutes I said all I wanted to say about Intel. When the students began asking questions like are you a genius? Are you rich? Did you get straight A’s?

    Next I found myself sharing my entire testimony with these students absolutely incredible what God had done. In 2001 I was in Colorado Springs, and my whole world came crashing down on me Praise God! I lost my job with Intel, my 401K dried up, and my wife decides that she is not cut out for marriage, while at the same time the IRS granted me a 501C-3 status.

    You see Deborah, I have never been angry with God, even when my father died, but in 1997 while I was in church I saw this old man approach me asking me to pray with him, he said that he didn’t know how to view God as a father because his father died when he was young, his mother remarried and his step-father was abusive to him so at the age of twelve he ran away and has not returned. I thought, how believable is this that a 48 y/o man has not seen his mother since he was 12 y/o? Then he tells me that he is only 24 y/o.

    Deborah I lost it, I drove home that night so angry with God, asking Him all kinds of questions and letting him know that it was like I had my hands tied and there was nothing that I could do. God and I ended up having this conversation that night where He spoke to my heart and told me that I was going to be a father to the fatherless, I stopped Him right there and said “that sounds like blasphemy, the bible tells me that you are the father to the fatherless”. And He continued, yes and you are my son and you are following in my footsteps.

    Well I had no idea what to expect but about a year later DADInternational Inc was born. I wanted to encourage students or anyone that crossed my path to seek a mentor and higher education. You see if my mentor who was not a Christian had this much impact on my life without being religious how much more could I have if I just went prayed up?

    After I lost my Job with Intel, I tried to get funding for the organization couldn’t raise a dime, so I started driving a school bus what a blessing I then promoted myself with the Lords help to truck driver.

    The Lord knows where he needs me, He has been bringing men that are in there 30’s and 40’s into my life who don’t have a father or a positive role model in their lives and he is allowing me to mentor them, in a real unique way. I am humbled that the Lord would choose me to do such an important job, the Bible says that a prophet in his own home has no honor, well I am no prophet but my family still sees me as the little boy they grew up with who was un-disciplined and had no direction, Praise God. These men that God brings into my life see God, hear God, and know His love through me.

    Next year Lord willing I will begin to work less hours and commit more hours to doing the Lord’s work whether I return to school and complete a counseling degree or just hit the streets working with people who desperately need Christ in their lives who knows maybe the Lord will bring more men into my life, His will and not mine.

    Sorry for being so long winded, I do have a broken talker, maybe that’s part of the gift :)


  45. poohpity says:

    Our stories are similar. I used for 21 years and in 1989 the Lord called me to a different life of being high on Him. I have a BA in human services and a AAS in chemical dependency counseling final goal is a Master’s in counseling. I have been involved with the counseling ministry at church since 1990 plus many other ministries. I am now trying to get the youngest out on his own so that I can buy some type of RV to travel with the goal of getting bibles into as many peoples hands as possible. How this is going to happen is still unknown and God may have others plans for me. I am in a hold pattern for now.

    I have had many hip surgeries and the last one I had really messed up my entire leg which is teaching to not look at the outside and God can still use me anyway. I had my first hip replacement in 1997 since then I have had three more. I am a little older than you but the doc said that the disk and joint deterioration is like that of a much older person so that is one of my crosses to bear and I wear it well. lol What else can you do. :-)

    Thank you for sharing your story with us, glad you came to the website. Isn’t it neat who God uses for His Kingdom all us broken people. He is truly the Head of His body of believers and you never know who or how He is going to use you but you can be sure He will.

  46. xrgarza says:

    Wow! and I’ll say it bacwards, !woW

    Praise God! I don’t know if you have heard of Tony Melendez, but his parents were chemical abusers and he was born with no arms all kinds of other issues but he has an incredible ministry. He is out of Texas, he sings and plays the guitar, oh did I mention he uses his toes to play the guitar. I figure if God can use Tony, he can use anybody according to Phil 4:13

    I was born Crippled and on March 1st 1967 God healed me and what he has done for me he will do for others, but I would rather go to heaven with a broken body than a go to hell with a perfect body.

    I came to this website simply because when the men that God brings into my life came and stay here I give them the hard copy of our daily bread, and they are not allow on my computer, so here is where I do my devotions. I am glad I found it too.

    I will be leaving here in a few hours, I will be driving to Southern CA and who knows where I will go from there, I jsut have a blackberry I am not able to comunicate on this website with it, i can read comments but I am not allowed to leave comments. you will not hear from me until next week.

    PS: I don’t know how you how old I am, but I’m younger than I look :) People when guessing my age think that I am in my 30’s and when they meet my kids they think that we are sibblings. But I turned 52 in April I have two very mature adults, and I just had my sixth grandchild last November. Prasie God!

    God Bless you Deborah It’s been nice chatting with you

  47. poohpity says:

    You said when you were 23 you had two kids and one was 30 and next year the other would turn 30. That is how I knew how old you were. I am soon to be 56 so you are a few years younger. See I paid attention. It has been nice chatting with you too. Be safe and watch out for the storm it is coming toward us from southern Mexico. I am in AZ and we are getting some wind already.

  48. xrgarza says:

    I see the confusion, I did not say in what year I was 23, that was in 1980. :) but you know that now.

    Thanks for the weather update I will drive with care.

    When I lost my Job at Intel I was living in Colorado Springs, and Intel had hired me at their Chandler plant, I was having a house built in Queen Creek AZ.
    Then they announced a corp wide hiring freeze, they said the job was mine but they couldn’t hire me, well it’s been eight years they still haven’t called. Praise God.

    Happy early Birthday better early than late


  49. xrgarza says:

    PS: The company I drive for sends me to the Phoenix area periodically to make deliveries to the Home Depots.

  50. poohpity says:

    Well you need to stop by for coffee. DMG lives in this area too but have not been able to get her to go for coffee yet. There are a few on here that we have started talking over the phone, gr8granny and SFDBWV, and helmet over email.

  51. bubbles says:

    Xavier and poohpity,
    sorry to butt in on your/pooh’s conversation. hope it’s okay.. .

    this teacher has seen the benefits and blessings of a mentorship among godly people of a local church here in town and students who have been given permission by their parents to enter into a mentorship program.

    thank you so very much for what you are doing. it takes much time, emotional, and mental energy to pour your life into that of another at risk or in great need.
    thank you for loving those who aren’t always lovable. thank you for taking time to come along side of those who may feel like no one sees them. thanks for sacrificing your time to help those who may have no other place to find it.

    may the Lord give you wisdom as you do His work.

    P.S., poohpity, could we talk over email? if you’d rather not, that’s okay. how would we go about doing this? hope this was all right to ask.

  52. poohpity says:

    bubbles that is fine with me you have my handle at hotmail.com

  53. bubbles says:

    i’m soo sorry, not for sure what to do, can you expalin a little further? i’m so not tech savvy. :) ha. thanks, and sorry to bug you again.

  54. poohpity says:


  55. xrgarza says:

    Bubbles Thank You

    Deborah, I will try and let you know when I am in the area, that would be fun. Since I am not able to respond via this medium while I’m on the road, my email has the same handle @comcast.net

    God bless


  56. poohpity says:

    We are so bad!!! OOOps!! Mart, while done intentionally, forgive me for breaking the rules. Love Deb

  57. xrgarza says:

    Deborah, did i miss something? what are the rules? what did I break? Oh my

  58. poohpity says:

    We were not to give out email addresses. It is in the comment guidelines.

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