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Don't Kiss the Saint

A Madrid AP news item caught my attention over the weekend. It reported that the emergence of Swine Flu has necessitated a new rule: “Don’t Kiss the Saint.

For hundreds of years visitors to one of Roman Catholicism’s holiest shrines— claiming to hold the remains of the Apostle James—have hugged or kissed a statue Spain’s patron saint.

The cathedral’s dean said no signs have posted the rule. But an usher who stands behind the main altar—quietly passes the message on.

Spaniards customarily greet one another with kisses, on each cheek, but now have been asked to shake hands. So the rule  is not easy in a culture where people customarily greet one another with kisses on each cheek. One Spanish citizen likened it to putting a fence around the countryside.

Even the health minister was caught breaking the rule. After asking the public to hold their kisses, the public health minister, greeted a colleague with two kisses prior to their meeting on swine flu.

The item reminded me of something that Moses said that I’ve often thought about. As he rehearsed the law that God had given to Israel from Sinai, in preparation for their entrance into the promised land, Moses made it sound like the law God was giving his people was very doable (Deut 30:10-16). He reminded them that God had not asked them to keep laws that they didn’t know about. But rather he was being very open with them in explaining how to love and be loyal to him and one another.

Doesn’t sound much more difficult than, “Don’t kiss the Saint” if you don’t want to catch or spread Swine Flu. The same seems to hold even from a New Testament perspective that reminds us that what really matters is “To love God with all of our hearts, and our neighbor as ourselves.” Who doesn’t get that?

In addition, God gives His Spirit to those who trust in His Son. He offers to live his life through us as we invite his presence in every thought, action and decision. He even declares us to be in right relationship with himself in exchange for our belief in his Son.

But there’s one thing He doesn’t do:

He doesn’t make us good…

Not yet… or at least not with our moment by moment invitation (and surrender) to His Spirit… to do in us– what we cannot do for ourselves…

Let’s think together about the implications of “being declared right with God through Christ… but not being made good…

Could that be why it is so hard to remember to do something (like loving God and one another)  that seems as simple as not kissing the saint– for our own good?

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37 Responses to “Don't Kiss the Saint”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    I read a long time ago that the Jew sees christianity as idol worship. Due in large part to all the statues in Catholic churches. As well as the habit of kissing them.

    I have always been torn whereas the division of Christian churches have fractured themselves into. No wonder so many non Christians see church as hypocracy.

    The most basic of Christ’s teaching being as Mart mentioned above.”To love God with all of our hearts, and our neighbor as ourselves”.

    How could people who adopt this creedo as a way of life, have such difficulty living up to it?

    I see the development of a Christian as the life of a plant. It starts (made right with God through Christ) as a seed. But then must be watered, nurtured and fed. To grow into it’s full potential, over a lifetime. Being made different and better than it began.

    However I am not sure we ever will become good until Christ puts sin in it’s proper place and we are no longer able to be influenced by it’s power.

    In the meantime, we struggle as best we can. Making mistakes and having successes. But hopefully continuing to grow.

  2. refump says:

    I like “The Message” translation of Romans 7:

    17-20But I need something more! For if I know the law but still can’t keep it, and if the power of sin within me keeps sabotaging my best intentions, I obviously need help! I realize that I don’t have what it takes. I can will it, but I can’t do it. I decide to do good, but I don’t really do it; I decide not to do bad, but then I do it anyway. My decisions, such as they are, don’t result in actions. Something has gone wrong deep within me and gets the better of me every time.

    21-23It happens so regularly that it’s predictable. The moment I decide to do good, sin is there to trip me up. I truly delight in God’s commands, but it’s pretty obvious that not all of me joins in that delight. Parts of me covertly rebel, and just when I least expect it, they take charge.

    24I’ve tried everything and nothing helps. I’m at the end of my rope. Is there no one who can do anything for me? Isn’t that the real question?

    25The answer, thank God, is that Jesus Christ can and does. He acted to set things right in this life of contradictions where I want to serve God with all my heart and mind, but am pulled by the influence of sin to do something totally different.

    For so many years I heard sermons & read books telling me what I am suppose to be like if I am a child of God. I would then make resolve to try & do or act “as I should” so Christ would be happy with me. Of course I always failed miserably. What the sermons & books didn’t tell me was “how” to get there. I always likened it to a coach giving a great “win one for the gipper” speech that got all the players fired up to “win”. We would run out on to the field with fire & zeal but when we realized the coach had never instructed us on how to “play” the game that fire & zeal gave way to fear & disappointment & the “game” was lost. As has been pointed out by several people in the past blogs, I have come to realize that the “how” is in developing a relationship with Christ by spending time with Him & through growing closer to Him we become more like Him (good) through the power of His Spirit He puts within us. My part is to seek Him & His part is to change me.

  3. chapmartin says:

    The doing of the day to day simple stuff can be the most difficult to accomplish. I see this carried out in the life of my young daughter. “Make your bed.” “Pick up your toys.” The simple commands often get me the most flak. I have noticed that those in my life who do have a good grasp of just doing the simple day to day stuff are the most level headed. They are the ones that I really feel drawn to when asking for prayer and keeping confidences. When I see these examples I am reminded that sanctification is not just puntiliar in time but a process that should consume the believer’s life.

    Mart, I read the point of this blog, “Let’s think together about the implications of “being declared right with God through Christ… but not being made good”.
    Is not sanctification actually the “PROCESS of being made good”? Yet, because this process is not complete or realized as of now, we still struggle in the here and now as we are “being made good” through the process of sanctification.

  4. saled says:

    As a child attending Sunday School and learning the Romans Road method of salvation, I expected God to make me perfect when I asked Jesus into my heart.
    And I would try to be perfect, but that seemed so much more complicated than I could wrap my mind around. I asked Jesus into my heart so many times, and knew that I could go to Him for forgiveness when I sinned, but I always worried that I wasn’t truly saved. So I would ask again and again.

    As an adult, I believe that I have been declared right with God through Christ. However, I believe that I am being born again, I don’t believe that I have been born again. Some have suggested that time is an illusion, and maybe the difference in tenses that I used in the previous sentence is not really an issue, but I see Spirit working in my heart, while knowing that I am not perfect.

    This might be a good place to mention something Mart said in the Four Kinds of WIsdom post that has stuck with me and given me hope. “Conventional wisdom says that we live and grow on the merits of our thoughts and choices. Redemptive wisdom says that we live and are enlightened on the merits of the one who died in our place . . . to save us from the fatal consequences of our choices.” This is my hope, this frees me from condemning myself because I’ve messed up so badly.

  5. jjhis says:

    While reading the title “Don’t kiss the saint”, Psalm 2:12 came to mind which says to “Kiss the Son…”. I, too, have struggled with my own “goodness” or “whiteness” as Oswald Chambers would say as I seek to lay aside every weight and sin which besets me as a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. And therein is my main problem. I’m focussed on my sainthood and not on the Son who is the One who has saved me and is cleansing me from all unrighteousness (as I confess my sins) until that day when the change will be complete. Praise Him. Kiss the Son.

  6. curiousjean says:

    Riddle: There were three missionaries who went to South Africa to preach, they were captured by headhunter. All of them were sentence to Death; they were given choices on how to die. If there sentence was true they will be burn alive, if it is false, they’ll be shot with poison arrow. The 1st missionary’s sentence was true, so he was burn alive while the 2nd missionary’s sentence was false, so he was shot with poison arrows The headhunters freed the 3rd missionary, instead of killing him,. The question is: What’s the 3rd missionary’s sentence? Support your answer please.

  7. poohpity says:

    I do not do riddles very well but we all die the third’s was just prolonged to preach. I do not have a clue to the answer.

    I struggle with doing the right thing all the time and fail so miserably. Thank God that Jesus has done it for me. I think it is so true if I was good I would boast. My imperfection keeps me humble and dependent on God.

    If we complicate everything then it keeps us from doing anything because we are into self and our abilities. If we keep it simple saint (KISS) that frees up our time to act on what we have experienced through our redemption and grace. To do we sit on a shelf all pristine or do we get dirty in the trenches. I choose dirt.

    That is my answer and I am sticking to it. LOL

  8. poohpity says:

    I meant, “So do we sit on a shelf. Ooops!

  9. kaliko88 says:

    I’m not sure where the idea comes from that we ill eventually be made good? Didn’t Jesus say that even he was not good, only God was? I don’t look towards being made good. I try to seek him so I can DO good, but all I pray for myself any more is healing.

  10. SFDBWV says:

    My apologies to you, curiousjean, but I don’t understand the questions of the riddle at all. Sentence???

  11. poohpity says:

    I think if you read the reason that Jesus was referring to Himself not being good was to show that He was indeed God and it was right to speak of Himself as being good.

  12. bubbles says:

    The psalms say “His mercy endureth forever”. I’m so thankful that our Lord is merciful.

    Jeremiah 17:9 tells us that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it? My parents never ever had to teach me to do wrong–I was born knowing how to do wrong! For sure I know I wasn’t born good!

    It’s so wonderfully amazing that He extends His mercy to us. . when it’s not deserved and punishment is.
    so humbling. Because of His mercy that saves us, it is not of ourselves–that way we have no room to brag about things we consider good in order to get us into Heaven. It’s all the work of God, and not us. To God Alone be the glory.

    Here’s something that I hope doesn’t sound too off the wall: I’ve often wondered if we’ll feel different in Heaven, once the whole burden of sin has been lifted–like when a large project is completed here–the relief is great. Has anyone ever wondered if we’ll have an enormous sense of relief once we are finally home with Jesus?

  13. daisymarygoldr says:

    kaliko88, you are right. No one is good except God who out of the goodness of His heart sent Jesus to heal the brokenhearted. So, don’t worry, but have faith. He will certainly heal all your wounds and restore you to good health… that is my hope and prayer for you.

    I agree that we are not being made good but because of our right relationship with God, we are called to do good. God is good and if by grace He has made us right to give us life, naturally we will desire to love Him and no one else. God is good and His good word sanctifies us. If we say we love God then we will seek to do good by obeying God’s word.

    I don’t see it as something hard to remember. God’s word is quick to remind us what is good and makes us realize what is bad in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. God uses it to prepare and equip His people to do good i.e. to love God and others.

    “So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law… Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law. Rom 3

    “…the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good. Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God’s good commands for its own evil purposes.

    So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, because of sin– a part of my genetic code. Hence, as refump pointed out “I decide to do good, but I don’t really do it; I decide not to do bad, but then I do it anyway”.

    …but thank God for Jesus Christ…the forerunner who not only showed us but also gave us the Holy Spirit that enables us to do good. By ourselves we cannot do good but the steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord.

    “At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, He saved us… so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good.” Titus 3:3-8

  14. bubbles says:

    Yes, the law is like a mirror showing us what is wrong with our lives. When God wrote the ten commandments, He knew we would not be able to keep them–they are like guidelines to show us the correct way to live–like a fence that keeps us safe. But, when we break one, they are all broken. It is the enemy’s deception and the pride of our old nature that tells us that we can keep the whole law without offending it in one point.

  15. BobbiLee says:

    Greetings in the Lord

    This is my two cents worth of input. First, I am reading above a lot about “struggle” and “striving” and “trying”. Therein lies the issue I think. Rather than struggling, perhaps it is yielding that makes the difference. We are to yield our whole selves to God for the use of the Holy Spirit. Are we in this position all the time? No. God allows circimstances into our lives to teach us, grow us, make us stronger Christians.

    Second, it is our POSITION in Christ that declares us righteous. That never changes. It is our PERSONAL walk that grows us and the Holy Spirit’s work in us that molds any goodness or growth in us. Following is an old poem of which there are many versions:

    Two natures strive within my breast; one is cursed, one is blessed. One I love, the oth er hate – the one I feed will dominate.

    The Romans 7 quote from refump says it all and describes this sturggle within. The question is: who am I going to feed?

  16. sjd says:

    My “flesh” is still just as ugly today, years after I received God’s gift of Life, Jesus. God chose not to wipe my “hard drive” clean at that time. I am being transformed by the renewing of my mind.

    The wonderful truth is that we now have God’s DNA within us. Ian Thomas has defined DNA as the “Divine Nature from Above”. Jesus was “born” on this earth with God the Father’s DNA. And we as believers have the same “genetic code” now within us. Christ lives in us, The “Divine Nature from Above”, is now our “DNA” as well. As Paul states, “I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.” “We are partakers of the divine nature”, Peter tells us.

    So, no, we are not good. But the only One that was/is good, lives in us as believers. As I/we offer our bodies as living sacrifices (the only reasonable thing to do), Jesus now lives in us, and our bodies (lips, hands, feet, eyes…..) are able to be used by the One who is good. We are now the flesh He resides in.

    It is all about making ourselves available for the Good One to manifest those good works that we were created for, that only He is able to perform through our broken, but yielded bodies.

    Howard Snyder has said, “The Church is a living organism with it’s own genetic structure, its own unique DNA.” Frank Viola has said that if we unravel this DNA, we will “find that it is purely and singularly Christ.”
    “You are bone of His bone, spirit of His spirit. You have inherited His DNA.”

    It is pretty wild for me to consider that each of us “in Christ”, also have Christ is “in us”. That knowledge should change how I look and act towards each of you. Wisdom tells me that love is the only reasonable way to respond to you, and I do that by yielding to the good One within.

  17. poohpity says:

    Now that is what I call putting or giving the Glory to God. Amen!! It is not about us but about the One who lives through and in us. Just beautiful ain’t it?

  18. poohpity says:

    I do not want to kiss a statue I want to kiss all you saints that have flesh and blood. :-)

  19. daisymarygoldr says:

    I am really beginning to enjoy this DNA talk that is bubble wrapped with kissing the Son and the saints:) actually I’m dangling in a dilemma— is it Do or Don’t Kiss the Saint? Please, Keep It Simple Saints!

    Steve/sjd, that was cool, Christ is the DNA that transforms a sinner into a saint! And you are so right “that love is the only reasonable way to respond…”

    My human DNA is also programmed to love… a kind of touchy-feely tingle that sends shivers down the spine or a warm sense of regard and a longing desire to be with or be satisfied by someone or something….a caring, benevolent giving that is driven by strong emotions.

    (Aside to those who had disagreed about the word emotion in the past: please, check out “My utmost for His highest” August 25, 2009)

    So, unlike the carnal, self-centered and deceptive love expressed by our DNA, “the love of Christ controls us” (2 Cor 5:14) and is characteristic of a good heart. It was He who first loved us and if we say we have inherited God’s DNA we will love others first even if they had wronged us or hated us or did not accept us.

    …and if we really love others, we will yield to God’s Spirit that will help us to not hold grudges or hate, or refuse to forgive others. We will love sacrificially and except no love in return.

    It is indeed “pretty wild” to know that God in the person of Christ lives in our hearts. When we realize that God hates lying, stealing, coveting, murder, false gods, adultery, etc., we will strive to steer our lives away from these things.

    It is not that we are doing good to earn God’s favor, and it is also not because of the fear of condemnation associated with the Laws of Moses. It is God’s love that will motivate us to do good and reflect the good and perfect image of God.

    “Therefore, my dear ones, as you have always obeyed [my suggestions], so now… work out (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) your own salvation with reverence and awe and trembling (self-distrust, with serious caution, tenderness of conscience, watchfulness against temptation, timidly shrinking from whatever might offend God and discredit the name of Christ).

    [Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight.

    Do all things without grumbling and faultfinding and complaining [against God] and questioning and doubting [among yourselves],

    That you may show yourselves to be blameless and guiltless, innocent and uncontaminated, children of God without blemish (faultless, unrebukable) in the midst of a crooked and wicked generation [spiritually perverted and perverse], among whom you are seen as bright lights (stars or beacons shining out clearly) in the [dark] world, Holding out and offering [to all men] the Word of Life” (Phil 2:12-16)!

  20. Sakoieta says:

    Here is some interesting information if you are interested.


    Dan Katchongva (1865-1972), Hopi Primary Source: Excerpts, The Hopi Story: Teachings, History, and Prophecies of the Hopi People: as told by Dan Katchongva, Sun Clan. Translated by Danagyumptewa

    This talk was recorded on 1/29/70 and was published because Mr. Katchongva hoped that those causing this tragedy could not persist if they had an idea of the purpose behind Hopi resistance to foreign control. Dan agreed to the publication of this booklet on condition that it never be sold, insisting that to sell Hopi teachings would be like selling his own mother. In addition to the prophecies fulfilled during his lifetime, Dan was told by his father that he would live to see the beginning of the final event of this era, the Great Day of Purification. Dan Katchongva died in 1972.

    Arrival of Another Race Foretold Time passed on, people passed on, and the prophecies of things to come were passed from mouth to mouth. The stone tablets and the rock writing of the life plan were often reviewed by the elders. Fearfully they waited as they retold the prophecy that one day another race of people would appear in their midst and claim our land as his own. He would try to change our pattern of life. He would have a sweet tongue or a forked tongue and many good things by which we would be tempted. He would use force in an attempt to trap us into using weapons, but we must not fall for this trick, for then we ourselves would be brought to our knees, from which we might not be able to rise. Nor must we ever raise our hand against any nation. We now call these people Bahanna.

    The Forces of Purification We have teachings and prophecies informing us that we must be alert for the signs and omens which will come about to give us courage and strength to stand on our beliefs. Blood will flow. Our hair and our clothing will be scattered upon the earth. Nature will speak to us with its mighty breath of wind. There will be earthquakes and floods causing great disasters, changes in the seasons and in the weather, disappearance of wildlife, and famine in different forms. There will be gradual corruption and confusion among the leaders and the people all over the world, and wars will come about like powerful winds. All of this has been planned from the beginning of creation. We will have three people standing behind us, ready to fulfill our prophecies when we get into hopeless difficulties: the Moha Symbol (which refers to a plant that has a long root, milky sap, grows back when cut off, and has a flower shaped like a swastika, symbolizing the four great forces of nature in motion), the Sun Symbol, and the Red Symbol. Bahanna’s intrusion into the Hopi way of life will set the Moha symbol in motion, so that the four great forces of nature (the four directions, the controlling forces, the original force) will rock the world into war. When this happens we will know that our prophecies are coming true. We will gather strength and stand firm. This great movement will fall, but because its subsistence is milk, and because it is controlled by the four forces of nature, it will rise again to put the world in motion, creating another war, in which both the Moha and the Sun Symbol will be at work. [My note: apparently referring to the swastika-like Moha (Germany) in conjunction with the Rising Sun (Japan)] Then it will rest in order to rise a third time. Our prophecy foretells that the third event will be the decisive one. Our road plan foretells the outcome. This sacred writing speaks the word of the Great Spirit. It could mean the mysterious life seed with two principles of tomorrow, indicating one, inside of which is two. The third and last, which will it bring forth, purification or destruction?


    The third event will depend upon the Red Symbol, which will take command, setting the four forces of nature (Moha) in motion for the benefit of the Sun. When he sets these forces in motion the whole world will shake and turn red and turn against the people who are hindering the Hopi cultural life. To all these people Purification Day will come. Humble people will run to him in search of a new world, and the equality that has been denied them. He will come unmercifully. His people will cover the Earth like red ants. We must not go outside to watch. We must stay in our houses. He will come and gather the wicked people who are hindering the red people who were here first. He will be looking for someone whom he will recognize by his way of life, or by his head (the special Hopi haircut) or by the shape of his village and his dwellings. He is the only one who will purify us. The Purifier, commanded by the Red Symbol, with the help of the Sun and the Moha, will weed out the wicked who have disturbed the way of life of the Hopi, the true way of life on Earth. The wicked will be beheaded and will speak no more. This will be the Purification for all righteous people, the Earth, and all living things on Earth. The ills of the earth will be cured. Mother Earth will bloom again and all people will unite into peace and harmony for a long time to come.

    But if this does not materialize, the Hopi traditional identity will vanish due to pressure from Bahanna. Through the white man’s influence, his religions, and the disappearance of our sacred land, the Hopi will be doomed. This is the Universal Plan, speaking through the Great Spirit since the dawn of time. The Hopi have been placed on this side of the Earth to take care of the land through their ceremonial duties, just as other races of people have been placed elsewhere around the Earth to take care of her in their own ways. Together, we hold the world in balance, revolving properly. If the Hopi nation vanishes, the motion of the Earth will become eccentric, the water will swallow the land, and the people will perish. Only a brother and a sister may be left to start a new life.


    The Hopi Indians have a prophetic tradition dating back thousands of years. One of their crucial prophecies was carved on a rock cliff in the Black Mesa of Arizona, some 2000 years ago. This petroglyph (as described by Sun Bear and others) depicts the great spirit pointing to two divergent historical paths across the era of our world (the fourth world).

    [The above drawing is an interpretation of the carving on Prophecy Rock. Both the drawing and the explanation below come from Thomas Banyacya, Hopi Elder. There are other interpretations; most are similar to this one.]

    Our Hopi history tells us that at the time of emergence we met the spirit who owns this world. He met us, and we asked him to be our leader. He refused, saying that we had our own mission to fulfill before he would consider becoming our leader. He set this life out for us. He gave us instructions. This is symbolized by his figure holding the line. Now the circle at the bottom of the drawing symbolizes the physical world and creation. We went forth into our journeys. We reached a certain point in time, who knows, maybe a thousand years. There we were met by Massau’u again. Here he gave us more instructions. To the Hopis he gave a path of life to follow. This is shown by the straight line that goes across. To the white brother he gave different instructions. The white brother went up, and the Hopis went another direction.

    Now at this second meeting with Massau’u, he told us that within the life of this current world, there would be three phases of life where the whole world would be shaken up. Three nations would rise up and shake the world. This we interpret to mean world wars. Now up at the left side we see a symbol. This is what is painted on the Hopi ceremonial rattles that are given to children. The rattle symbolizes the world. The painting on the rattle shows the symbols of the countries that would shake the world three times. I think that the swastika in the middle symbolizes the German people, who had that for a symbol. They brought the United States into the First and Second World Wars. The sun symbol signifies the Japanese people who brought the United States into the Second World War. Pasivaya, an old religious leader from Shipaulovi, told me that the third nation to rise up would have its national symbols in red. The people would wear red caps or red robes. The world has been shaken up twice already. There is one more war left.

    So after the second meeting with Massau’u the white brother went on his way, and we went on our way, according to instructions. But it was told that we would meet again some day, that this white brother would come back to purify us so that we would become one people again. So on the top, the line means this — it shows the journey of this white brother. In the life of the white peoples, they would show themselves to be clever and gifted. They would invent many scientific things.


    So the first three figures shown on the top line symbolize the stages of the white people, their scientific advancement, from the carriage to the automobile to the airplane. The circles right underneath the figures prophesy the three gourds of ashes that would fall on earth. The first and second circles are interpreted to mean the bombs that fell on Japan in WWII. The four headless figures on top show our Hopis who have become like the white people. These are Hopis who have forsaken their Life Plan and who have become like the Pahana [whites]. They have fallen for the white way of life — the easy life, the modern conveniences — and do not care for Hopi life anymore. These Hopis will say to other Hopis to follow their ways. Now if all Hopis fall for this trap, then life will be like the jagged line going up, toward the upper right corner. It will be up and down, turmoil, earthquakes, floods, drought. The old people say we are at this stage of life now.

    But it is prophesied that a phase of life will come when those Hopis who have become like the white people will realize their wrongdoings and attempt to join again the Hopis who are holding on. This is symbolized by the line going down, back to the Life Plan of the Hopis. Now if this happens, then there will be times of unity, of all Hopis working together. We would have then come back to this Life Plan set out by the Great Spirit for us. This is symbolized by the circle and the corn. Now it is foretold that we would meet up with Massau’u one more time as symbolized by the figure on the right. He will judge us and, if we are deserving to go with him, he will accept to be the leader of the Hopis. And thereafter we will have a happy life.

    Like the Maya, Aztec, and other Native American tribal wisdom traditions, the Hopi tell of a series of ‘worlds’ which have existed. Each may be thought of as a cycle of civilisation. A common aspect is that we are currently in the 4th world. The Hopi describe the demise of the other worlds as follows:

    1st world: ended when all of the volcanoes of the world erupted and an all consuming fire engulfed and destroyed the first world.

    2nd world: ended when the poles shifted and the earth was covered in ice. Mountains fell into oceans and seas.

    3rd world: “The third world was very corrupt and this time it would be destroyed through water. Taiowa sent Spider Woman to talk to the people who still carried the Creator’s song in their hearts. She taught them how to build large boats out of reeds.This, they did, and when their boats were sealed, the waters began to flood the world. The noise of the rushing waters was incredible. Large continents sunk and broke apart into small islands. Incredible rains fell. Then it stopped, and there was silence. The reed boats drifted the people over the silent waters for a long time. When their boats finally stopped on a new coastline, the people walked onto the dry lands for the first time. They had emerged into the fourth world. This is the world we are all living in today.”


    The Hopi account of the end of the previous 3rd world by a ‘cleansing’ by way of great flood fits in well with Cayce and others. In fact, similar traditions of a worldwide catastrophe exist among peoples of all continents including Scandinavians, Greeks, Egyptians, Hebrews, Sumerians, Babylonians, Persians, Hindus, Fiji Islanders, Eskimos, native North and South Americans and many other sources.

    The Hopis mark the end of the 4th world as a purge by fire (cf. Edgar Cayce above). The end of the fourth world (called Tuwaqachi by the Hopi) is described thus (see Book Of The Hopi, by Frank Waters). Eventually a gourd full of ashes would be invented, which if dropped from the sky would boil the oceans and burn the land causing nothing to grow for many years (atomic bomb). This would be the sign for a certain Hopi to bring out his teachings in order to warn the world that the third and final event would happen soon. That it could bring an end to all life unless people correct themselves and their leaders in time.

    The final stage, called “The great day of Purification”, has been described as a “Mystery Egg” in which the forces of the swastika and the Sun plus a third force symbolized by the color “red” culminate either in total rebirth or total annihilation, we don’t know which. But the choice is yours, war and natural catastrophe may be involved. The degree of violence will be determined by the degree of inequity caused among the peoples of the world and in the balance of nature. In this crisis rich and poor will be forced to struggle as equals in order to survive.

    Some markers and signs: Before the time of the great Purification, they will make metal roads for iron horses and hang metal ropes in the air. (pre-Colombian Hopi prophecy) First they will bring back pieces of the Moon which will upset the balance and unleash disastrous forces. (ibidem) Near the day of the Great Purification, there will be cobwebs spun back and forth in the sky through which ‘people will walk’ . (ibidem) The Purification will begin shortly after humans build a great house in the sky (MIR and/ or new European/US space station?). By then there will be fires everywhere and greedy, selfish, power-mad leaders, internal wars.

  21. BobbiLee says:

    Thank you Sakoieta, but I would rather depend on the Word of God, the LIVING Word, rather than myths and pagan symbols. There is another thing too – it would seem that the entire planet revolves around “your people”. Sorry but that is not the truth of the matter. It is God and His Holy Word that this planet revolves around, His truth, His moral conditions, His plan and His salvation. The Scriptures say there is no other. Personally, I have to build my belief system on the solid Rock, rather than hay, wood, and stubble.

    One is certainly free to believe what one wants to believe, but belief does not determine truth – mine or yours. When Christ claimed that He was the Way, the Truth and the Life, that takes precedence over anyone or anthing else. There are not many truths, but one truth. If that is not so, then there is no truth at all. When a person takes mysticism, the occult, myths, religious symbols to stand for truth, that person is headed for a confusing conglomeration of beliefs. In fact I would say that a person confused by those things could very well have such a mixed system of beliefs that they aren’t sure what to believe. Sorry for the diatribe, but I thank my Jesus for His sacrifice of death in our place. Because “without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. . . ” And as the New Testament points out, the blood of animals sacrificed year after year won’t do, but that the blood of Christ is the perfect sacrifice. Now we have a new system of purification before God, that set into place by the blood of Christ and His death on the cross.

    BTW, that “great day of purification”, when Christ returns to set His feet on the mountains of Jerusalem after final war and battles of Armegeddon, is mainly for the Jewish people who will at that time turn to their Messiah as a nation and Christ will judge the nations, most of which will be destroyed.

    So, for me, not to be ALL off topic,[:-)], I always choose not to “kiss the saint” and be drawn into the worship of anyone or anything, but Christ Jesus, Himself, which is not always easy, as Mart points out.

  22. xrgarza says:

    Reading the comments concerning “being declared right with God through Christ… but not being made good”

    I believe the biggest contributor to “not being made good” is lack of discipleship.

    As a parent of adult children, had we abandoned our children at birth, we would have been sent to jail and our children to foster homes or shelters.

    Sadly, this is exactly what happens in our churches. We lead someone to the Lord, and in essence say, “Ok I did my job, Next!”

    Our churches have become spiritual orphanages, with no one to disciple them, but relying on the pastor or the church staff.

    To disciple someone is hard work and a huge commitment. Very similar to raising a child, I say if you are not willing to invest the time to teach valuable principles to a child or a baby Christian, don’t have children and don’t lead people to the Lord.

    PS: poohpity I responded to your comments at The Meaning of a Head and Body Blog.


  23. Mart De Haan says:

    Again, the conversation is too important to cut off with another post.

    Seems like one factor we keep bumping into is the tension/two-sides-of-the-coin perspective that “being conformed to the image of Christ” (i.e. expressing the goodness of his attitudes/Spirit in us) involves a surrender to him that requires our “diligence in faith”. That’s what I see in the 2Peter 1 passage that we’ve talked about from time to time.

    According to Peter, God gives us the power and promises we need “in the knowledge of and presence of Christ in us” (who as some have pointed out so well gives us his DNA) (2Peter 1:1-4).

    Then Peter goes on to urge us (with all due diligence) to supply in our faith virtue, knowledge, self-control, endurance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love. (1:5-7)

    The tension seems to lie in the fact that these are “fruit of the Spirit” (Gal 5:22-23)that require our active decisions, grace-enabled personal effort, and ongoing prayerful invitation to Christ to do in us what we can’t do for ourselves.

    Spirit revealed facts, faith, effort, plus our dependence upon the mystery of Christ in us… orchestrated by Christ our Lord…

    Aren’t these some of the reasons why “goodness” doesn’t just happen, once Christ is in us… and why the Scriptures encourage us– from a number of different perspectives– to “abide in” and “show all due diligence” in Christ.

  24. SFDBWV says:

    Awhile back we talked about wisdom. We quoted some of Proverbs and heard from other wise sources. I think the wisdom of scripture and the wisdom of the world would agree, that nothing of value is as appreciated as one worked for.

    Somewhere over time the misunderstanding of God as genie has emerged. This just is not so. Yes He grants and gives. But it is granted and given in a mutual effort of action.

    We take a step toward God, He takes a step toward us.

    The acceptence of Christ into our hearts is the “biggie” that first step of rebirth. Rebirth means we are as little babies (spiritualy), at that moment.

    As we continue to grow into a deeper relationship with the Holy Spirit we continue to change.

    As we change, over time, there are evidences of it. The fruit of the spirit is seen.

    For some of us, God has to add “miricle grow” to our spiritual life as He waters and watches over our development. This special additive is most always in the form of trials and trobulations. Forcing us to come closer to Him.

    Christ taught usuing the growing plant as an example.

    We are the plants he is talking of. We will grow and develop into our spiritual adulthood, watered nurtured and tended to by the union of ourselves and the Holy Spirit.

    Becoming Christlike, does not “just happen” it takes us all of our lives.

  25. SFDBWV says:

    Sakoieta, Many years ago, when I was a young fellow. I loved reading about all the spiritual records and events of all sorts. Edgar Cayce, Nostrodamus, many various ancient predictions and prophesies. The Mayan calandar has an end, I believe December 29, 2012.

    I have come to two seperate understandings whereas these similar predictions and beliefs are concerned.

    The first is that, In the beginning, God created the stars in the heavens to show the times and seasons. I believe this included the signs and seasons of man as well as the obvious four weather seasons. So I believe that from the beginning mankind had an overview of his destiny.

    The second is that, Satan being a religious being. Has confused this known prophesy in order to divide mankind and pervert the truth. That Satan hates the truth and that the truth has a name…Jesus Christ.

    All people, from the four corners of the world, have a beautiful picture story of their own cultures and religions. God wants to bring all people together back to the original place and relationship we had with Him in the garden before sin entered creation.

    God Himself wrote the book we know as the Bible, by way of the Holy Spirit. So that we could have a story of truth that leads us back to Him. Him being the person of Jesus Christ.

    Christians have the responsibility of bringing this truth to all people everywhere. All four corners of the world.

    This in no way, takes away from yours or any peoples cultures. Beautiful and diverse.

    Nor does it endorse the wrongs done to yours and other peoples.

    In the book, Jesus stated that many would come in His name but not be true representitives of Him.

    He also stated that He is faithful. To lead us into all truth. If we seek Him. Focus on Him, and believe in and on Him.

  26. sjd says:

    I agree Mart, that there seems to be a mutual “effort” needed to grow in Christ. Peter definitely states that we have been given everything we need for life and godliness, then tells us to make every effort to add to our faith……. There are many other passages that speak of the need for discipline as well.

    I just got a call after that last sentence that may help illustrate this. Someone called that has been having difficulty getting to our gathering times, and has been missing out on our time in the Word, prayer, fellowship, celebrating communion and more…… She was calling to say that she was going to make every effort to be there tonight, and was going to set her alarm to remind her and would then call. I told her that I would call as well if I didn’t hear. She was trying to make sure that she was available to be there tonight for our gathering of Church.

    We come into this relationship with Christ by faith and we need to continue to live by faith. It seems that the mutual input into this relationship is all one sided. My effort is to simply put myself into the position to receive what God has for me and to see Him work His power through me. I agree it takes effort, even as this sister in Christ wants to be with our “family” tonight, to make herself available to reap the benefits of our time together.

    The fruit of the Spirit is not something we produce, but is rather the Spirit doing only what He can do in and through us. The more I by faith make myself available to God to use me the more I will see Him do.

    I was meeting outside a restaurant the other day with a young man, and someone I knew, but not well, came by and I thought, is this someone that you want us to talk with about you. I did look for the opportunity to talk with Him about Christ and made a comment that took us to talk of spiritual things and had a wonderful talk with him, and was able to clearly present the Gospel. If I had not yielded my time and mouth to Jesus then, nothing would have happened. But by His grace, He was able to use my mouth. Yes, I was consciously thinking and talking, but I believe it was as I was depending on Him that anything good came out of my mouth.

    Sometimes I feel like I just need to show up. He is already there, willing and ready, and certainly able. Just as Jesus relied on the Father, I need to rely on my Lord to perform through me.

    Acts 2:22 (NASB95)
    22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—

  27. sjd says:


    In rereading your last comment, “to abide in” is well worth looking into.

  28. poohpity says:

    I think it is neat that it does not say the FRUITS of the Spirit but the FRUIT. It is the product of placing our life in His hands and living in vital union with Him. Dependence on the nourishment of the Holy Spirit, not like brainwashing but a continual renewing of our mind to those things that are pure, noble, trustworthy, just, honest and lovely. It is a process of changing and sad to say it takes, suffering, pain and gratefulness to develop that fruit, pulling away from the source is what leads to hardening of the heart.

  29. foreverblessed says:

    YES, to all other responses
    Here is my bit:
    Wasn’t Jesus allergic to the question of doing good, or being good Mark 10:17-22
    The whole thing of “good” or “bad” is beneath the standard of what God wants from us.
    Didn’t God say already in the garden, do not eat from the tree of good and evil.
    But eat from the tree of life!
    We should be part of the living LIFE, and the life is in the Son. (Yes: Kiss the Son)

    And the start is so small, just a tiny bit of faith is enough.
    As small as a little seed, the smallest seed will move mountains.
    And I believe the mountain that is moved, is the mountain of sin in us. For some that means pride, worry, arrogance, selfisness, panic, for others indulgance, contempt,
    But as Mart says, we have to be active as well, why would the following verse otherwise be in the bible?.
    Hebrews 12;4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

    So every morning I make sure I am part of the Life of Christ, that I am in Him. I invite Him into my life when I wake up. I do that more and more, and during the day, like Daniel, who prayed 3 times a day. And often I constantly pray, while doing my duties, especially dull duties, like cleaning. Washing. Do I look like a saint now?
    But many days I have been so busy on my own, just forgot that I am His. Have to come back at my proper place at night.

    And slowly He shows me more and more.
    Lastly I got the verse in
    Hosea 10:12
    Sow for yourselves righteousness,
           reap the fruit of unfailing love,
           and break up your unplowed ground;
           for it is time to seek the LORD,
           until he comes
           and showers righteousness on you.
    I asked God what it meant. The answer came bit by bit,slowly I realised He meant that I actively stop negative thoughts. Thoughts that for no reason come into my mind, because the past has been cleared, forgiven, I am a child of God, I am already being comforted by Him.
    He does not plant these thoughts in my mind, the adversary does.
    “You are not good enough” “You missed the perfectness God desires, you are not being loved bY Him anymore”
    And before I realise I think they are mine, and think they are true.
    So before the thoughts settle, I grap them, throw them out of my mind.

  30. foreverblessed says:

    And start to glorify God, and Jesus, thank Him for the freedom, for forgiveness, for nature, for the beautifull flowers. For the birds singing. And I am getting closer to thanking Him for difficult people that I have to deal with. To thank Him for the trials, because they refine me, sanctify me.

  31. foreverblessed says:

    The topic of being declared right with God through Christ is also about us brought from the dominion of darkness into the kingdom of the Light:
    Colossians 1:12-14
    12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you[d] to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. 13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption,[e] the forgiveness of sins.

    We were purchased, and passed over to a new spiritual kingdom. As we were. Not yet perfect. Our old clothes were taken of, and new put on.
    Sakoieta, I cannot imagine that your people were not effected by the domnion of darkness that has been here on earth since the fall of Lucifer.
    In your saga’s there is no mention of an evil power, just of evil people.

    We were purchased, and passed over to a new spiritual kingdom, as we were. Not yet perfect.
    After that fact we could fight the good fight, before our deliverance we were incapable of doing that, we were prisoners.

    Sakoieta, I cannot imagine that your people were not effected by the domnion of darkness that has been here on earth since the fall of Lucifer.

    And to stay on the topic we are urged to work hard in verse 9-11 of the same chaptre:
    9For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding. 10And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully 12giving thanks to the Father

  32. Sakoieta says:

    Sorry Bobbilee , but I don’t believe in myths or pagan symbols. I believe in prophesy as God has revealed it to the peoples of the world so they would seek him for greater understanding. How do we accept a prophet as being a prophet? If what he foretells as coming from God comes true. Is that not enough?

    foreverblessed, I have never maintained we weren’t affected by evil. You call him Lucifer, we call him Tawiskaron. We have our own stories of how the Creator dealt with Tawiskaron and how that has affected humans since the beginning of time. Look outside the box people and you will see that God is also standing there and has done great works that cannot be discounted. Remember Peter having to have a total mind change to accept the work God had done with Cornelius. There are many Peter’s here, I am afraid. I hear it and read it. Bobbilee for me life only exists as how I live my life as a Mohawk. I’m not Russian, or Spanish, or anything else. Can we ask the dandelions to change the way they grow to become a rose? Can we ask the robins to become crows? If Christ came to fulfill God’s work in us, then is it not true that I should become a better, more fulfilled Mohawk man following in the ways of God? The trouble with Americans is they have all jumped into the melting pot and become mixed up gook. Next time you want a fruit salad take the fruit instead and put it into a blender and push the sacred number seven. Then enjoy your American fruit salad. I will have mine where I can still see and taste the uniqeness of the fruit. Mohawk strawberries, Cree saskatoons, Ojibway blueberries, Hawaiian pineapple, Navajo peaches. God created diversity in the flowers, birds, trees, plants, animals. He created us to learn from it and honor him in the process. Why is that so hard for Bible thumping Christians to learn?? Look outside the box, Peter.

  33. Sakoieta says:

    This is tiring and getting ridiculous. I knew when I first signed on here and posted it would be like this. I believe in the Lord and live my life accordingly but because I come with a different viewpoint and different experiences of seeing the handiwork of God in the world with the nations He created, I become suspect. It has been that way from day one with the church and continues to be that way no matter what. I look for truth of God not only in my fishbowl but also outside of it. I hope someday the fishbowl gets to full and God will move you into a beautiful flowing river of life, filled with other fish who have been there and belong there. I read posts like Bobbilee’s with her false assumptions and just realize again I will always have to defend myself against people who have been taught there is only one way to look at God and if it is not their way, then I am wrong. Sorry folks but I have been given a life to live according to the word of God, both written and oral. I am going to live it to the fullest and enjoy others who are living it also. I suggest you people get off your high horse and realize you practice the same things, free choice in food, movies, T.V. shows, personal belongings, wealth, etc. that I am speaking about, everyday, yet when you post on here you make it as if these things are not relevant to your experience with the Lord. Every step of life should be a prayer, every choice should be honoring the one who made us, every purchase, everything. We should be enjoying the fact God has not made us all with the same experiences. We should be celebrating in the diversity God has put into the wisdom of his word and all the natural world and trying to learn more about our maker from it. Not trying to constantly discredit it because God said we should all wear red shirts and someone’s shirt is a different color red than mine. Sheesh.

    Bobbilee makes the statement that I believe the word revolves around my people. It does when we are the one who have been constantly missionized by your people. And we are telling you as consumers, your product isn’t working as well as it could, wake up and look at what you are teaching and preaching, not only in your words, but definitely in the way we see it in many ways the deeds lack credibility as well. Instead of accepting that, just like the posts on here…you maintain Jesus is your everything and because you say it, you are right and we as Indigenous people of the world should just shut our mouths and take it as you say it. It doesn’t work that way. Wake up, Peter, God is calling you to open your eyes.

  34. foreverblessed says:

    Sakoieta, I get the idea that 2 things get mixed up, in our discussion:
    Jesus and the consumption society, the western way of living.

    Say, that all christians would give up the western way of living, and would live in the woods again, totally in harmony with nature, working together, and living in harmony with each other, giving the other cheek, when slapped on the one cheek, giving the mantle when asked for one, walking 2 miles with the enemy instead of 1 mile, and all in the name of Jesus. Would you then consider that Jesus is everything?

  35. poohpity says:

    Whoa Sakoieta, before you posted here none of us new what nationality anyone was, we just talked about the bible and followed the guidelines for comments (not perfectly). You can refer to anyone as an American melting pot if you choose but the truth in the matter is we have folks from all over the world that post here. We have not alienated you, from the beginning you came in with a mission that focused on your ways and the harm the church did to your people. I would be glad to be lumped into a group that refers themselves to disciples of Christ, I for one am so proud to wear that label. You have no idea what nationality or clan I am from and to me that is not the important thing. We have not alienated you, you continually tell us how different you are and how sad we are. So in retrospect who is the one who has alienated anyone that is like the pot calling the kettle black.

  36. poohpity says:

    I am so glad and honored that the Lord does not look at the color of our skin but our hearts. We are humanity. God looks at all as His children, brothers/sisters and friends with no color, gender or social status. That is something to be thankful for. We are His Saints one and all who believe.

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