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Can Salvation be Lost?

New Orleans Statue of Christ

The Bible offers strong warnings about the danger of “falling from grace”. But does that imply the possibility of losing the gift of salvation? This question has divided followers of Christ for centuries.

Once again we are faced with a subject that seems to offer Scriptures in tension. One side can quote our Lord’s words, “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10:28-29).

The other can quote, “For it is impossible for those who … were made partakers of the Holy Spirit…if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame” (Heb. 6:4-6).

Lock on New Orleans Door

What seems certain to me is that one of the most important implications of this issue is that those who fear losing their salvation (rather than losing i.e. close relationship and spiritual influence etc) may be inclined to slip into the mode of thinking that we are saved by our own “faithfulness” or “works of faith.”

This can subtly shift dependence onto ourselves rather than the finished work and grace of Christ.

On the other hand those who emphasize security as a result of “praying to receive Christ” or “walking the aisle” to receive him can rely on an action rather than asking the question am I really relying in my heart on what Christ did for me?

For many reasons, real Christians and spiritual look alikes can be impossible to distinguish by us.

For this reason we all need to know our own hearts and what we are really counting on…

In short, the teaching of “security” can be rightly and wrongly used, just as the warnings about the dangers of false assurance can be rightly and wrongly used.

Let’s compare notes…

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246 Responses to “Can Salvation be Lost?”

  1. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I think this all comes down to knowledge and awareness.
    It was, along time ago, that I was told we are judged on what we know and how we act on that.
    If you do not know Jesus or even heard his name, we are judged according to our hearts.
    Like Cornelius, he was a good man and feared God, God then sent Peter to tell him about Jesus and from that point his whole household was saved and he knew and had a relationship with Jesus.
    If Cornelius had never known, I am sure God in His grace would have saved him but He wanted to give Cornelius so much more.
    I have had lots of teaching on scripture, Messiah and The Holy Spirit and know I was saved at 16 or so years old. I have fallen away several times, but have no real excuse as I have the knowledge and sense to know better. I believe I will be judged on that one day and how I acted on what I know.
    I think “once saved always saved” but feel Paul was warning us with..

    “For it is impossible for those who … were made partakers of the Holy Spirit…if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame” (Heb. 6:4-6).

    He is telling us to be careful because we know better than to forsake our Lord and are putting Him to shame.


  2. foreverblessed says:

    According to Heb 6:4-6 it must be possible to lose your salvation.
    But how do you interpret that verse, like Bob and Pooh, you did fall away, and yet are back. If we interpret that verse literally it means to say: you have no chance, because you did fall away. See how difficult it is to take a verse literally?
    Because both of you are not lost.

    So that verse must mean something else.
    What does it mean?

  3. Lively says:

    First, THANK YOU, Mart. I can’t express my gratitude enough. I want to apologize right now for a statement that I am going to make in this post – but it is unavoidable.

    The person I’m grieved over isn’t just passively falling into the ways of the world – he’s actively purposes to drive a wedge between him and God. He remarried a woman who dabbles in “witchcraft” and had seemingly has turned to Satan. The last thing he told a mutual friend was, “F-off” and “Hail Satan”. Truly, I wanted to cry when I was told that.

    I’ve never been exactly sure what blaspheme of the Holy Spirit exactly is, but if pressed I would probably say what this person is doing is blaspheme. If he was ignorant in the Lord, it would be one thing – but he isn’t. I don’t want to relay his story in such a public arena, but I will say that he was betrayed by a Pastor in his church – it caused quite a scandal.

    His situation has been on my heart for months, I wonder, was he not saved and this is who he truly is, or was he saved and has truly blasphemed the Holy Spirit and is now lost forever to God or, is he destined to come back to Christ? I’ve been praying for him, but I feel helpless to do anything and I desire to do more – yet I know that’s my desire and right now at least, it’s not God’s will so I just continue to pray for him.

    One thing this has taught me, if I grieve deeply seeing just one man turn from God – how deep His sorrow must be.

  4. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    You are right to worry and your grief is from The Holy Spirit, but it is not up to any of us to work such things out in our heads.
    You are doing the correct thing by praying and giving him over to God.
    It sounds like he has been deeply hurt and that is what is causing this reaction.
    I deliberatly turned from God at 21 because He would not stop my “gay” feelings. It was a conscious turning away but God was always there in my head and watching over me.
    I am sure He is doing the same with this person.
    I know for a fact if someone has doubts about there sexuality they react hostile to gay men. The same applies with God. If someone is hurt and God is talking with them, they will react with hostility against Him. Pray for Jesus to protect him from satan/witchcraft and to cover him in the Blood of Jesus.
    That is the very best thing you can do right now.


  5. nhb says:

    I have enjoyed for some time reading the many theological issues that Mart has posed and the many responses or discussions that have ensued. I felt led for the first time to post my thoughts on this. To begin with I am on the side of “once saved, always saved”, based on the John 10:28 as well as many other scriptural references. We are sealed by a personal indewlling Holy Spirit. As to the example mentioned by Lively of a person loosing his savation by passively falling away, one may need to consider that the individual was never saved in the first place. Only two beings will know for sure concerning salvation, yourself if you were sincere in accepting Christ in the first place and of course God. The scriptures tell us if we are “born again” we become a new creature and over a period time one should observe changes or spiritual growth. The bible also talks about the saved person over time will also develop Christ-like characteristics refered to as “fruit of the Spirit. Assurance of one salvation is mentioned in 1John 5:11-13

    The last comment I wish to share is that each individual is accountable to God whether or not Christ was ever presented to him. In reading Romans 1:18-20 we read that God has revealed himself through his creation so that men are without excuse.

  6. Lively says:

    nhb, glad you joined in. Yes, my biggest fear is that he wasn’t saved in the first place – but i tend to lean towards that he was.

    Bob, I tend to agree in your assessment, because his is not the passive falling away that is probably more common – but he’s seems to be fighting tooth and nail against the Lord, so that does seem to indicate that he is/was saved. He even went as far to “unfriend” his friends that are Christian on facebook, he’s hiding from us – I’d like to believe that if he was truly lost to the Lord, he wouldn’t care and would take delight in causing us to unfriend him. Not one of us abandoned him, even when he tried. If we didn’t, I *know* the Lord hasn’t.

    I suppose, blaspheme must also be in the heart, like prayer – if it is just “lip service” there is no power behind it. I pray that is the case.


  7. poohpity says:

    As the generation that left Egypt and did not believe that God could provide them with the ability to go into and conquer the promised land, so God made them to wander in the desert until that generation was dead. It was not God’s choice but their own desire. So if someone chooses to not want salvation and to follow their own inclinations God will allow it. I do not believe he will force anyone who does not want salvation to accept it or anyone who has tasted it to continue if they do not want to. So is that losing salvation or throwing it away?

  8. poohpity says:

    We can not force anyone to love us nor do I believe that God will give the free gift of salvation to anyone who does not want it. Do I feel that He gives up on us, no. Do I believe that he pursues us, yes. So as to whether one can loose salvation or did that person ever really have it to begin with, unknown. I do not believe I can loose my salvation because I choose to believe in the Person who gave it to me in the first place. Do I have to ask for the gift continuously, no. Does anyone else really know about my salvation, I think yes because it will be seen in the fruit produced in my life. Do I care if anyone but God knows, yes because that would mean I am living an unproductive life and I do not want my branch to be cut off.

  9. Helmet says:

    well, I believe in Jesus words, that no one who really trust in Him wouln’t be slip away from His hand. So, the point I went to my uncle’s funeral this week, all his like long we heard th Word, maybe read the Bible (I don’t know, but people said about his great testimony, his example etc. I just know that I remember his serious face, sometimes he seemed angry, I thought there was something wrong, bot don’t knew what. maybe health…
    The only I know for sure, is that when mom died on dec 1st ’08, she prayed with me last light and she went to heaven, so in her funeral preaching was about salvation, of course included God’s love John 3:16, the problem of sin that separates us from God Rom 3:10-12, Jesus death in sustitution Rom 5:8, repentace Acts 3:19 and faith John 1:12 Rev. 3:20 Eph 2:8-9 John 3:3. So that very time, my uncle prayed to receive Christ in his heart, and rised his hand to let us know about his salvation and, for sure, there was no need of this, because his face told everythging! the bigest smile I eve seen in his face, and then closer to him I asked “so, uncle, see you there in heaven when time conmes?” “of course!” he said happily. Last monday he went to Heaven, and I smiled thinking aboun a Himn that states “when rol would be passed, I’ll be there” (just translating from spanish, you may know which I’m relating of)
    How many time our heart can lie to us, saying we are saved? so, Mart, maybe we can ask our heart, and really know or find we lie about our salvation, but maybe not, so God is the only one that really knows our heart as it said in Jer 17:9-10, so lets ask to Him, in sincere and He’ll show us the truth.

  10. Helmet says:

    oh! sorry, I’m writting on a new notebook and my fingers do not know where they are steping on =( hope you can understand what i meant! X)

  11. phpatato says:

    It’s 23 below zero F this morning with the wind. Brrrr I laughed out loud Bob at your comment on your Rideau Canal experience. That is so true of winters in Ottawa.

    I sit on the “once saved, always saved” side of the issue. When someone has that deep conviction in their heart to Believe and has actually Confessed that Jesus is Lord, they are saved from eternal death. No one can snatch them out of the Father’s hand. They become one. (John 10:28-30) It becomes a UNION.

    In Ephesians 1:13-14 … And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit GUARANTEEING our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession-to the praise of his glory….I have heard this said as an example: It is like we have been put on lay away. We have been bought with a price; had a deposit put on us, we’ve been stamped with seal, taken off the display shelf to await the One who purchased us to take us away. In the meantime, we cannot be bought by anyone else because we legally belong to the One who paid the deposit. We were bought at a huge price…and when we believe and confess, we are saved!

    Now that we are saved, we begin to enjoy a FELLOWSHIP with God. That is a continual closeness that enables Him to bless us in our daily lives. But even though we are believers, as long as we are on earth, we will continue to sin. God cannot abide in the presence of sin so if we have unconfessed sin, we deprive ourselves of that close relationship we have with Him and any blessings we might receive from Him. We are still in UNION with Him but are now out of FELLOWSHIP with Him because of unconfessed sins.

    Hebrews 6:4-6 is a warning against us interrupting our fellowship with Him. Christians sometimes rebel and may even say they’ve renounced their relationship with the Lord. But if they are truly saved, He has promised to go after them like a shepherd goes after a lost sheep and will bring them back. If He doesn’t that means they were never saved in the first place, because He has promised never to lose anyone the Father has given Him. (John 6:38-40).

  12. pegramsdell says:

    Also…when someone is adopted in Israel, it is more permanent than a natural child. You can never un-adopt them. When God grafted us in the Jewish vine, we became adopted as sons. So, once adopted, always adopted.
    We can boldly come to Him and call Him “Abba”. That will never change. If we were adopted to begin with…

  13. phpatato says:


    The picture of the door….it looks to have a barrier on the window. I am reminded Rev 3:20: Behold I stand at the door and knock…

    How important is it to make sure that all barriers are removed from the door of our hearts so that our Lord can come in and fellowship with us.

  14. SFDBWV says:

    Romans 8:38,39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, no powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, Shall br able to seperate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    My quick answer to Marts question is *no*, you cannot lose your salvation.

    The thing is if were up to us, the answer would be yes. But it isn’t up to us. it’s up to God.

    Salvation is not lost but one can face devine discipline and the lose of reward at the judgement seat of Christ (2Cor 5:10).

    God is not going to change him mind nor is He going to not grant Jesus His prayer request, concerning losing any.

    A person who asks once for salvation through the blood of Christ is saved once and for all.

    Romans 4:16..”therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end of the promise might be sure to all the seed;

    John 6:39 “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which He hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

    Heb 7:25 “Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He liveth to make intercession for them.”

    2 Cor 1:22 “Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.”

    I can go on, but I would rather say this… Please, please, people, The devil wants to cause you to doubt and plant the seeds of confusion in your heart. Do not listen to the lies from Satan.

    God grants you eternal forgiveness through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Nothing in existance can take it from you…nothing in existance includes you, and your foolishness.


  15. SFDBWV says:

    Pat, it was a balmy 04 degrees F here this morning. But it looks like the worst of the coming storm may be south of us this time around.

    It is always good to hear from you Helmet, no need to appologize, your message comes through loud and clear.

    Stacy, the poor tortured soul you have mentioned, is reacting to disapointment as a spoiled child might. God will deal with him. Love him in spite of himself and continue to pray for him. I would say burn a candle for him but I don’t want to open up another discussion about old traditions…

  16. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Hi Steve, I knew you would come to the rescue with lots of scripture quotes.
    Yes, once saved always saved!

    And we will be judged and rewarded by how we act on what we know, but that, as you said, has to do with our crown not our salvation!

    If we are true to Christ we won’t be concerned about our crown as we would rather be the low servant than receive a reward.


    Stacy, I think your friend is closer to salvation and God than you think. He is kicking against the pricks and God is working a miracle in him.

  17. SFDBWV says:

    I would like to take a closer look at Hebrews 6, please bear with me as I go through the text.

    Heb 6:1-5 seem to say that it is a waste of time and effort to keep going over and over the first lessons we have learned, lets be strong and mature and go on to other things.
    Verses 4-6, I am looking in these passages where it might say that this person was *born again* or brought under the grace through the blood of Christ. It says that they were *enlightened*. To me that indicates they heard the Word.
    That they *tasted* the heavenly gift, But had they recieved it? Or did they eat of the bread and drink of the wine?
    That they were *made* *partakers* of the Holy Spirit. Not that they were a partner *of* the Holy Spirit, rather that they shared in the power of the Holy Spirit. Possibly by association with other believers.
    If they fall away? *Turn against God*. To renew them again into repentance. *Bringing them to believe they need to repent*
    This would be impossible, because they have rejected the Christ. Without the Christ, salvation is impossible.

    To me the people being spoken of here, have seen, heard and witnessed the Gospel. Even stood with others as the power of the Holy Spirit was made manifest. But nailed Jesus to the cross by rejecting Him.

    As I said before, salvation is impossible without Jesus Christ, and the acceptence of Him as Lord and Savior.

    I believe Hebrews 6:4 is a warning to all, not to just go through the motions, but to actualy repent and ask for forgiveness, through Jesus Christ, or face the consequence. Not a scenario as to how to lose salvation.

    See you all tomorrow, be nice, these are just my thoughts.


  18. Bob in Cornwall England says:


    It makes me wonder if I am just “going through the motions” after what I said in the previous post about copying others at a meeting so I would not have to go up the front.
    There seems to be so much in my life I should repent of, but deep in my heart I know that I know that I am saved.
    I am costantly drawn to Him, JESUS, and talk with Him all the time, but He said “if you love me, keep my commandments” I am not sure I do that and fall short on almost every count.
    It’s all to do with relationship! We either know Jesus as a friend and Lord, or in my case, just a friend, or not know Him at all. I need to submit to His Lordship and respect(fear) Him as King. That doesn’t realy help with regard to loosing ones salvation but does show there are various degrees of commitment to Christ, Messiah.


  19. poohpity says:

    If one reads further in Hebrews 6:18; “He has given us both His promise and His oath, two things we can completely count on, for it is impossible for God to tell a lie. Now all those who flee to Him to save them can take new courage when they hear such assurances from God; now they can know without doubt that He will give them the salvation He has promised them.” verse 19 “This certain hope of being saved is a trustworthy anchor for our souls, connecting us with God Himself behind the sacred curtains of heaven, v20 where Christ has gone to plead for us from His position as our High Priest, with the honor and rank of Melchizedek.”

    Can we take this and use it wrongly, yes. Some would say since I have the assurance of my salvation I can and will do whatever I want without the fear of losing it. Then the question would be did that person really receive salvation or did they just misuse the “name of Jesus” and the promises of God.

  20. poohpity says:

    Bob, we will never be perfect. It is totally a heart matter. I question myself self a lot. I even say if this how I have to act I do not want to follow you. I then consider the alternative and run back to Him for forgiveness. This is a spiritual journey that has bumps, valleys, mountains and sorrows. I think it is confronting to know where we can run when we fall down and know that His mercies are new every morning.

  21. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I do hope you ment comforting and not “confronting”.
    I am Ok with my salvation, just wish I was more perfect and like Jesus. :-(

  22. Lively says:

    Bob – Pooh is so right – we all fall short and I think there are times when most Christians have a hard time letting go of something “worldly” even when they know it would please God.

    I think that you mean comforting, Pooh? I have to admit getting a laugh from “confronting to know” that’s naughty of me, isn’t it? Sorry :-)

    Thank you all – I was discouraged for my friend, but the more I read of everyone’s comments – the more I have hope for him. I’ll keep on praying for him. It’s all I can do for now – I want to do so much more, but the Lord hasn’t opened any doors there so I’ll sit on my hands.

    Truly, a I feel that a weight has been lifted from me.

    Steve – I’m praying the storm holds to the south – so far so good for us!

  23. Helmet says:

    BTW Hi! everybody, I missed u, too much work but since today we don’t have water to home tasks, I have a chance to seat here in Mart’s cushing couch and take a cup of cofee with all my dear friends.

    But somebody please tellme about granny, where is she? I missed pegramsdell too. Hi pooh! love you!

    Hi Steve!! how is Matt?

  24. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Hi Helmet
    Just want to say Hello from Britain. I am farely new on here and see you know most people already!
    It is such a priveledge to be able to make comments on this blog.
    Your friend in Jesus, … Bob


    Thank God you shared your burden with us today, and thank you Mart for seeing the topic changing and opening up a new posting so we could share our worries and concerns.
    The world says ” a problem shared is a problem halfed” and that is very true, but when we share within the body of Christ and give it over to Him it is as if it never exsisted.
    Thank you Jesus for being our friend and healer.


  25. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Bed time for me 01:30AM GMT

  26. SERVANT says:


  27. poohpity says:

    Yes I meant comforted, lol. I used to want to be perfect but I could not handle all the responsibility that would come with it and that is God’s job anyway. I could never meet the expectation my parents set for me and find that I also carry to high expectation of myself and crash and burn more than I would like. I realize more and more how I will never measure up, that is why I am so thankful for the saving grace of our Lord and Savior.

    Hey there my friend from Mexico it has been a long time. Gr8 peeps in every once in a while but I believe she reads often. She is holding tight to the Lord with her recent diagnosis of cancer and is in our prayers. She sends me hugs through emails which are greatly loved. Peg is suffering with snow in Florida, lol. She is still posting too.

    SERVANT you got it. :-)

    Good night Bob in Cornwall. You are much loved, sending kisses and hugs.

  28. foreverblessed says:

    It is early in the morning here, I woke up and started pondering about the Q of Mart again. Couldn’t sleep anymore. So better search the scriptures and show myself approved, (it is better to study these subjects then studying prophecies about the end time). Because this thought entered my mind last night:
    God wants to give us salvation, but sometimes He can’t. That is when we do not forgive Matthew 6:15.
    In the The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant in Matthew 18:21-35 Jesus explains why that is so.

    (Forgive from the heart, not necassarily tell the offender that you forgave him/her, maybe even stay at a distance and avoid contact, but forgive, let go of the urge to punish the wicked act done to you, leave that to God)

    We could pray for the friend of Lively, because he is struggling with forgiveness. It is a real battle going on in him, and it seems the adversary is on the winning side, but it is not the end yet.

  29. foreverblessed says:

    Yes, we have a free will.
    But remember Corrie ten Boom? The leader of a nazi camp asked her to forgive him. Do you remember that she couldn’t. But yet in faith reached out her hand to the man, and then God gave her forgiveness from the heart.
    We could pray to God, give me the will to follow You:
    Romans 10:13 “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
    Philippians 1:6
    “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
    Ph 2:13
    “for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.”

  30. foreverblessed says:

    If the Holy Spirit urges us to forgive, and we withstand, then we are warned.
    We cannot think lightly of this matter.
    Maybe speaking against the Holy Spirit, Matthew 12:31 and 32 is speaking about this, not following the soft guiding. Who said we should have a tender heart to be able to follow.
    But only at the end will this be a matter of losing your salvation, I mean: way in the end.
    Before that it is like a battle going on in us.
    We have the victory in Christ already: Roman 7:24-25 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? (this unforgiving heart? Who will? Yes it is Christ Thank God, it is a victory through Him:
    v 25
    Pooh’s citing of Hebrews 6:18-19 is beautifull too, God is at our side, giving all we need.

    (That is searching the scriptures about)

  31. foreverblessed says:

    Sorry for going on.
    But this week I had this battle: it was shown to me: Let go, and you will be let go Luke 6:37
    In the meaning of that the migraine would have to let go of me.
    I didn’t know what to let go, and asked God. It was about forgiving my brother. I thought I had, but not from the heart, and it was also about letting go of legalism, I thought I had, but still am living His life as if it was legalism.
    I prayed and prayed,: God, I do not Want to live like that. But I can’t let go. Help me!!!!!
    I mean, I was crying for Help. Being so unable to let go of myself.
    Nothing happened.
    But I woke up the next morning and joy had filled my heart. And freedom.
    I cannot describe it.
    Isn’t God good?
    He does answer.
    And if you say: but He doesn’t answer me, wait and see, it might take 12 years. Because it has been 12 years that I wanted to let go of legalism.

    Thanks be to God- through our Lord Jesus Christ!

  32. Bob in Cornwall England says:


    I am so glad, after all this time, that you have been set free.
    It seems so strange to me that we search and search for answers to our problems and all the time it lies within us.
    Forgiveness is often the key to freedom and peace and letting go sounds so easy but takes us so long to work out what we are holding on to.
    Suddenly God shines His light in a dark corner and we wonder why we never saw it before.
    Enlightenment!!! eureka!!
    I guess our friends across the Atlantic are all tucked up in bed.
    Take care my friend.

  33. Rajnesh says:

    One might say, but why, don’t I want my salvation to come as easy as Rom 10:9,10. To me it just sounds so “automatic” and that regardless of whatever else I’ll be greeted with “open arms” at the gates of Heaven. Thanks for that picture, Mart. For a moment I was transfixed, marveling at the “glorious nature” of my Savior. My ticket would be no good today, pleading my case before Jesus.

    Although, once saved…forever saved sounds awfully good.

  34. SFDBWV says:

    I remember how hearing Billy Graham over the years helped me feel relieved. His graceful matter of fact presentation of the scripture always was a comfort to me.

    One of those moments were when he was talking about the unforgiveable sin. I love it that he says he doesn’t quite know or understand everything, but gives his thoughts on such matters as he understands them to be.

    He said the most simple thing, ” I believe if you are worried about having commited this unforgiveable sin, you haven’t.”

    That all of our lives all of our walk, there will be a conflict within us. As long as the conflict remains, we know that the Holy Spirit is there.

    The danger comes when we no longer feel the conflict.

    It has been a long standing belief that children and thoes unable mentaly, are covered by the gift of salvation. I would agree with this concept.

    For the remainder of all peoples everywhere, we are given the oportunity to exercise our free will and ask Jesus to be our Lord and savior. Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

    As our friend Rajnesh has also stated, Romans 10:9&10 says…” If tho shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shat be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”

    Ephesians 1:4 “declares According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.” The next several verses makes the case for *Eternal* salvation, I urge any to read on.

    Eph 2:8 “For by grace ye are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God: :9 Not of works , lest any man should boast.”

    God’s sovereign promise.


  35. SFDBWV says:

    Stacy, 08 degrees F and snowing this morning.

    Helmet, Matt struggles with life as do we all. Hungry for the time when he is absent from this world and there with the Lord. Facing every day and every disapointment with the attitude to never give up and never give in. He prays every day for others, not happy with his own circumstances but wanting others he knows to be blessed. Our friend gr8granny, sends her love to all here on the blog. She is filled with love and the grace of Jesus Christ.

    Foreverblessed, countless times the Holy Spirit has gotten me out of bed and brought me to His Word, knowing I was ready to see and understand. Somewhere in all the searching through the Word….peace comes. You know because you know. It becomes a part of your being forever etched on your heart and mind.

    Good Journey to all

  36. mjday says:

    The verses that has come to my mind during this conversation come from Psalm 139. “My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.” Isn’t this verse an argument for predestination?

    I always wondered why I was the only one of my family called out of a strongly secular lifestyle. There’s no doubt that I was.

  37. phanara@comcast.net says:

    How long have I labored over this very point! I’m still extremely new to all this and I don’t know what the politically correct termonolgy is, but my re-birth was only 4 years ago. Being an alcoholic to boot, my very existance body, soul and spirit, depended upon accepting Christ, living a spiritual life and walking the walk, not at all easy, but EXTREMELY SIMPLE! Coming from the really dark side of life of almost 50 years of it, brought me to my knees and I was “sweetly broken”.
    Now having said that, what does this all have to do with the topic? Well since I fell in love with Jesus and our Heavenly Father, out of love for what they had done for me, I wanted to do the right thing, ad hoc… not to sin or “be bad” and be a good follower. This almost drove me insane! Lose my salvation! I better start doing good things and get my self in gear! Again that almost killed me. Fear doubt and shame plagued me in trying to be good, do good.
    So, how did I personnal “solve” that dilemma? Well, first, I’m not EVEN going to guess the mind of God. (remember Job’s friends?) and the mind of God is NOT the mind of God. (Thanks God!) So, being a newbie at this I had to boil it down to the most simpliest spiritual terms (I can over think stuff to death!).
    1. Focus on God at all times. The first greatest commandment and,
    2. Love my fellow man as myself.
    3. In Hebrews it says any man that says he does not sin is a liar, so strive for spiritual perfection, knowing full well I’ll never gonna achieve it.
    4. Every time I fall down, get back up and KEEP GOING. Repent(180 degrees)talk with Jesus and pray to our Heavenly Dad, ask him for strength and power to overcome my character defaults (sin), and then immediately turn my thoughts to helping others. “What would you have me do Lord, help me to do your will, Grant me the wisdon, strength and love to help others and be more usefull to You, Grant that I may be a channel of thy peace, love joy, forgiveness. (thanks to St. Frank)
    After that, I’m just going to a bad place in my head. if I begin to doubt my salvation, I become useless to God and my fellow man. This whole issue about loss of salvation is merely a reminder to STAY FOCUSED ON GOD. As long as I do that, the point is really quite moot (lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil).
    May the Spirit be with you and bless you always.

  38. phanara@comcast.net says:

    P.S. Thanks so much for this topic, You Rock!!!

  39. InHisHands says:

    Hi All! I have been following along and am, as always, blessed at the sharing I read in here.

    “Once Saved Always Saved” I believe with all my heart. Steve explained my thoughts eloquently, as has Bob and Pooh.

    I woke up this morning thinking about the one who lived with the believers through his ministry, until his death – and how all thought for sure he was one of them. Yet, the disciples did not realize that Judas was the Son of Perdition, the betrayer of our Lord. (Jesus knew) Today’s devotion shows of another who’s eternal life was changed, while hanging on a cross. Brings to mind, “man looketh upon the outward appearance, God looketh upon the heart.”

    The bottom line, only the God and the sinner know ‘if’ and ‘when’ the decision is made to accept the ‘gift’ of Christ’s sacrifice and become His.

    My children have often caused me to question if they truly made the decision for salvation – their life styles do not always reflect that they have. At those times, Jesus softly reminds me that my life has not always been a reflection of one saved. Then I pray for them and leave them in His hands.

    Steve, thank you for reminding us that we can always tell the Holy Spirit is working in our life when we have conflicting or convicting emotions about our thoughts and actions.

    Just some random thinking – hope I made sense. Thanks for letting me share.

  40. InHisHands says:

    PS not ‘the God’ but only GOD. Brain going faster than fingers. lol

  41. poohpity says:

    I think the most important thing is to get our eyes off of ourselves and focus on what brought us salvation to begin with. Luke 23-24; John 19-20; Mark 15-16; Matthew 27-28. Does one believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That act of love that was done for you and me, if we believe in that sacrifice then we are saved. Nothing we can do can take away what has been done for us. So it does boil down to, do you BELIEVE? If you do not believe then you are not saved and if you do then you are saved. How can someone loose that because it is not dependent on anything we can do or not do, Jesus did it.

  42. Debra Otto says:

    Hello, Sisters and Brothers,

    I’m a new poster who has enjoyed reading Mart’s blogs and all of your insightful comments. This latest topic, “Can Salvation Be Lost?” had me running for my New Living Translation Study Bible. For your consideration, here are the footnotes for that passage:

    [6:4-6 Footnotes] “In the first century, a pagan who investigated Christianity and then went back to paganism made a clean break with the church. But for Jewish ‘Christians’ [quotation marks mine] who decided to return to Judaism, the break was less obvious. Their lifestyle remained relatively unchanged. But by deliberately turning away from Christ, they were cutting themselves off from God’s forgiveness. Those who perservere in believing are true saints; those who continue to reject Christ are unbelievers, no matter how well they behave.”

    [Footnotes on Verse 6 continued] “This verse points to the danger of the Hebrew Christians returning to Judaism and thus committing apostasy. Some apply this verse today to ‘superficial believers’ who come close to salvation and then turn away. Either way, those who reject Christ will not be saved. Christ died once for all. He will not be crucified again. Apart from His cross, there is no other possible way of salvation. However. the author [of Hebrews] does not indicate that his readers were in danger of renouncing Christ (see v.9). He is warning against hardness of heart that would make repentance *inconceivable to the sinner*” [emphasis mine].

    What I get from verse 9 is that it isn’t inconceivable to God that a person could repent, but inconceivable to the one who totally and absolutely rejects Christ.



  43. Lively says:

    Debra –

    Hi! Glad you came out of the woodwork :-)

    Which book/chapter is this referring to?


  44. phpatato says:

    Welcome Debra – I hope you continue to contribute. There’s always room by the fire and the coffee served is usually hot. :-)

    Stacy I believe these are the footnotes to Hebrews 6:4-6. Correct me if I am wrong.

  45. Debra Otto says:

    Hi Stacy and phpatato!

    Thank you for your welcome words, the cozy fire and the hot cuppa =). Yes, the passage I was addressing is Hebrews 6:4-6, and also verse 9.

    A blessed week to all and I promise to pop out of the woodwork more often (*smiles*). So much to learn here!


  46. saled says:

    I love the Billy Graham quote that Steve mentioned above. My Dad used to watch Billy Graham even though he would not attend the little church that we lived beside. An evangelist came to the church when I was about 12, and my two closest friends went forward to make their profession. I would not go forward without asking my parents, and their answer was no, wait until you are old enough to understand. Neither of my parents attended church, and neither of them was willing to discuss salvation. I remember feeling like a second class citizen because it was obvious to me that my parents didn’t meet the requirements for salvation. Seeing my father watch Billy Graham gave me hope. Dad eventually called out to God for salvation as he was dying from cancer, but I’m not sure that he confessed any sin.

    I spend more time thinking about being born again than I do about being saved. I know I don’t just need saving, I need redemption. I need changing. I think about it a lot, and what I believe is that I am being born again. I am counting on the fact that Jesus died to reconcile the world unto Himself for my new birth.
    My hope is that this reconciliation extends to people like my father and the uncle that Tony mentioned above. God is God. He is good and He is love and He is our hope.

  47. kingsdaughter says:

    Hi…I have been reading with such a fury on this topic (thank you Mart, I have been reading other topics but not posting, lately)…those of you who have ministered to me these past few months know how much I have struggled with this very topic, only because of my son’s death (ruled suicide.) Thank you Steve, Bob, Pooh, and others for your responses on this topic..I do believe “Once saved, always saved!” I have been in such agony on any given day when Satan tries to steal my peace about Brandon’s salvation. I KNOW that I KNOW that I KNOW…God’s grace is sufficient for me..and my son who came to Christ at the tender age of 7. I was going to add (but Steve beat me to it) about if we are questioning and are concerned whether we have committed the unpardonable sin..then we HAVE NOT. That is how I know that even in this horrible battle and my son’s battle…we are saved. Satan would not take up so much time with one of his…no, he is more interested in those of us who belong to God…wreaking havoc in our lives, stealing joy, and causing doubt! I praise my Lord for allowing me to have the confirmation that I need through His word…through this blog and the wonderful people here, and friends and even strangers who have reminded me of the Lord’s love…and His grace. I rest in His mercy and loving arms knowing my dear sweet son is resting there now.

    Not a day…not a minute that I am awake…do I not think of my son and what has happened. We are less than 2 months from the anniversary date of his entrance into the kingdom. I have horrible days that steal me away from a normal life now…I am depressed in this grief. At the same time, I have been seeking all that I can on the subject of salvation and suicide(I am now consoled to know my son is safe) but I have been through hell while dealing with this mystery of my son’s death…and why it all had to ever, ever be (I will know one day 1 Cor. 13:12) The people here and others who God has sent me have been the blessings I need to face the next minute. I miss my son and when I am at my lowest point is when Satan attacks which seems most of the time. I now recognize the enemy. I surround myself with books, recorded sermons, and friends with mighty swords….I will have to fight this battle the rest of my life because I have lost the most precious of gifts… until that day. I ask for prayer please. I am still vulnerable and yet, I know. I guess this addresses this whole topic. I know that I am saved but I also know that Satan is trying to spoil all that I am in Christ…but He must not know “the rest of the story” or I would think he would give up.

    May God Bless You All~

  48. Bob in Cornwall England says:


    I am so glad to here from you.
    I was getting cocerned that you have been absent from this blog for a awhile.
    Thanks for sharing with us again.
    I am pleased you have staked out your terretory and now can recognise satans voice.
    Keep holding on to the TRUTH that is in JESUS and by FAITH keep knowing that you know.
    God Bless you!!

  49. SFDBWV says:

    Dale, You will find peace, but that is not to mean you won’t miss your son. Live for Christ and live for your son.
    Busy your life helping others. Find a way to help thoes who may be contemplating suicide, or are at the bottom of their valley. Go to Hospitals and nursing homes and be a friend to the friendless and lonely.
    You may find that by sharing your grief with them, they may be able to comfort you, as you allow them to feel purpose.
    Just a suggestion Dale, 2 months is a very short time for all of this to have happened to you. God will let you know when the time is right to step out.

    Your Friend

  50. SFDBWV says:

    Stacy, -5 9 ( minus 5 degrees) this morning, 5.5 inches of snow from yesterdays storm. Looks like the worst of this snow went south of us this time. That totals 60.4 inches of the white stuff for the month of January.

    Long way to go until spring, if that ground hog sees his shadow Tuesday, I hope someone sticks him back in his hole…..He would have to dig through ice and snow here to get out. Not going to see the *whistle pig* for at best 2 months or more, up here on this mountain.

    Hope you were ok through the storm.


  51. Lively says:

    Steve –

    we’re warmer than you at 7 degress, though I have to wonder if it really make that much of a difference in comfort at these lows? lol It was bright as day last night, the clouds cleared out around 11pm and the moon was nice and high in the sky. It was a beautiful sight with the snow. Our unofficial (ie – me sticking a ruler in the snow) total was about 6″. If I see that whistle pig around here, I’m going to sic my dog on it – though I think it’s found a new home since getting the pup. Silly thing was digging out the foundation of our little red house! Then it would stand on it’s hindparts and stare at me as I tried to shoo it away – cheeky thing.

    I believe Dale meant that her son died 10 months ago.

    I’ve always held to the belief that salvation can’t be lost – not by an act of sin. I suppose the devil was having a bit of fun poking me as I began to doubt and wonder for the sake of my friend (yes, i have been careful keeping him anon, but that is only because this is a public blog)One reason I’ve always believed this is my own walk with Him. I should have remembered that even in “turning” away – once you’re saved it’s a done deal and He will not forsake you. The devil may have had a bit of fun with my doubt – but in the end all it did was make me more resolute in my faith!

    I was a bit concerend, too Dale.

    I’ve been unable to understand Hebrews 6 – no matter how hard I’ve read or prayed on it. It does seem to read that if you turn your back on the Lord, you’re lost – yet that means I am lost – and I know I’m saved – I don’t doubt my relationship with God.


  52. mjday says:

    Kingsdaughter, my heart and prayers go out to you. Six years ago I lost my nineteen year old son in similar circumstances. I know the daily agony you are going through.

    Stay focused on the Lord and his Grace. Don’t give in to dispair. Keep in mind that every day healing will occur. The pain will lessen over time.

    Reach out to qualified people around you, church, professional, and through reading. There are good community groups available. Be careful of well-meaning friends. They can accidentally say hurtful things. And don’t allow anyone to set limits on your grief process. Share your story. You will find others that have traveled this terrible journey. They will help you.

    I will pray for you during this traumatic time.


  53. Lively says:

    I’m happy to say, I need to retract my previous statement about Hebrews – I got it.

    It’s all there and I finally found an explanation that clued me into the truth of it.

    Key words:
    Use of enlightenment – means knowledge, not salvation

    Tasted – does not mean eaten

    Shared in the Holy Spirit – definitely does not mean filled with

    In terms that I can finally understand – it is like the difference between sympathy and empathy. Although, when I looked up the meanings of these words, they were not defined as I would have thought, so these are my definitions, not Webster’s.

    Sympathy is a generally accepted as a feeling of distress for another, even though he or she hasn’t had the same experience of pain as the recipient of the sympathy – a sympathetic person is reacting to the emotions of another. Whereas, empathy is a feeling of distress for someone born from a deeper and greater understanding of the source of pain, usually because one has gone through the same or very similar experience; an empathetic person is reacting to a person’s pain because they intimately know the pain.

    My new understanding of Hebrews 6 4:6 is that passage is talking to the sympathetic – someone who has a superficial understanding of Christ. This person isn’t saved, though they have experienced enough of the Lord to share an emotional tie. It is talking to those who will not take that final step and have that intimate relationship with God. Another random example that just popped into my head, during WWII, there were many who were Jewish sympathizers – though they were not Jewish – they sought to help and save them, regardless. It didn’t make them Jewish, it just made them “traitors” to whom they really “belonged”. I realize that sounds harsh, as they did a truly wonderful act of kindness – however if they were caught – that is what they were charged with, treason.

    I’ve also come to understand something else – someone who is truly saved cannot commit the ultimate, the unforgivable sin. I can’t back that up in scripture – yet – but, I’m sure of it.

  54. tandgmartin says:

    In His Hands: thanks for posting about your children. This issue has been on my mind for some time, and I’ve come to exactly the same conclusion. Pray for them and the Lord will take care of things. For my wife and me, we’ve always focused on our children being our primary ministry, and what we’ve learned is that now that they’re grown, it doesn’t stop, we move to other phases of ministry, namely, for us, intercessory prayer.

    Mart: thanks for this forum.


  55. poohpity says:

    I know with children or anything else the Lord has blessed us with we also have to have open hands. To allow the Lord to work in their lives and sometimes we can get in the way. It would be something to be able to change the past but we can not, all we can do is in the present. If we hold so tightly to the past our hands are full and the Lord has a hard time filling hands that are closed hanging on to anything. I feel I was given only a few years in which to teach them to be open to learning, now they, as always, are in the Lord’s hands. I have pointed them in His direction and have opened my hands to God to further their education. It is a great responsibility to be a parent and many nights I cried myself to sleep hoping that the Lord could work with the mistakes I have made. I trust their lives into the hands of our Mighty God to work and to achieve His will.

  56. kingsdaughter says:

    Stacey~ no doubt that doubt is an instrument of the devil. Sometimes we can over think ourselves into doubt. I have been doing that this past year. Never before had I ever thought like this. I was so very concerned for every aspect of my son’s life and now death and eternity, that this chaos of the mind settled in and tried to dissuade me of what I have known all of my/his life. I am glad to know you and I have seen the light with the help of our friends here.

    Bob and Steve~ I am here checking things out although I don’t always post…sometimes I don’t think I have much to say since everything I say is always about my son..and I am sure that gets tiring to others. I glean from the wisdom on this forum. It is my energy source on some days. Thank you so much.

    Mike~ I empathize with you as you do me…I am so very sorry you have had to endure this same kind of sorrow. I plan to help with a soup kitchen in a local church this spring. It is a new outreach they are starting. I have yet to go back to church on a regular basis due to my wellspring of tears that keep me from the public arena. But I will. I really miss the community of saints. God bless you for sharing your pain and advice.

    Stacey ~ on your final thought: “someone who is truly saved cannot commit the ultimate, the unforgivable sin.” I believe this to be true.

    Another thing to note: Charles Spurgeon ( I have several of his books and online resources) in his book “Spiritual Warfare in a Believer’s Life” emphasizes that we can truly know we are His when the Devil comes knocking and there is unrest in our souls.

    “We must observe also how ready Satan is to vent his spite against us in all frames of heart. When we are depressed in spirit, that old coward Satan is sure to attack us. I have always noted that he prefers to attack some of us when we are in a low and weak state than at any other time.” Spurgeon.

    “Satan’s terrible activity follows us into all places. Of course, there are skeptics who will not believe in the existence of this evil spirit. Too generally I have noticed that when a man has no devil, he has no God. Usually when a man does not believe there is a devil,it is because he never experiences Satan’s attacks, and probably never will.” Spurgeon.

    SO when the doubt comes in I must remember I am a threat to Satan…I will turn it around on him and praise my Lord for salvation, a gift, that is never ever taken back. Praise God!

    Have a wonderful day, friends!


  57. rokdude5 says:

    What comes my mind is the parable about seeds falling on various types of soil and which ones died and which ones took root, blossomed and became fruitful.

    I do hold to the notion that there is some point, though I cant clearly point to where it is, God seals our heart with His Spirit. God can also seal or harden hearts that refuses to follow Him.

    As per John 15:16, none of us chose God but He chose us first. I think He instill something within us to then long for Him. Once we accept Him, I think He then instill His Spirit within us. I think when we start praying to Him about whats troubling us, it is His Spirit within us that takes our hands and join Him in prayers.

    I, too, go along with “once saved, always saved” but I do believe that God will lessen His Spirit from us if we choose not to follow Him. To me its similar to turning up or down the burners on the stove.

    Some of you may know that one of my sons “came out of the closet”. I have to take comfort in “once saved, always saved”. For if this is not so, I will not have the peace of heart and mind as I do now. Need I ask where does that peace comes from? Phil 4:6

  58. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I read your comments before I went to work this morning and replied then.
    After work on Sunday I go straight to church at 11AM.
    Today my mouth dropped open.
    We had two prophecies, but the main one was to do with Jesus was here and to reach out and touch the hem of His garment. Then came a phrase about trusting and then the words.
    “I KNOW THAT I KNOW THAT I KNOW!” the very words I read from you this morning.
    Just felt that Jesus was affirming what you said.
    Needless to say I had one of the best Worship times in a long while.
    Jesus Loves you Dale!

  59. kingsdaughter says:

    Thank you dear friend Bob for that affirmation for me as well. I am so glad you had a great worship time today. Isn’t it wonderful and really beyond words when that happens! You have an awesome rest of the day…or evening there in Cornwall. God bless you.

    And “Yes, Jesus loves me…this I know.”


  60. afranz says:

    I have a dear friend who is my encourager in Christ. She always tells me “Doubt your doubts and believe your beliefs!”
    God bless you all, enjoy reading and learning.

  61. Lively says:

    OT – but has anyone else noticed that recently there have been more positive news stories re: Christians, lately?

    Or, perhaps it is just big brother (technology) watching my surfing and putting those kind of stories as my headlines?

    Back on subject –

    The parable of the seeds is a favorite of mine – but I’m reminded that all gardens are in need of weeding from time to time. I’m blessed to have fellow “gardeners” on this site, and in real life, that constantly help tend to the weeds of misunderstanding, doubt and uncertainty that crop up in my garden. And, provide light so I may grow.

  62. poohpity says:

    I also enjoy so much the “beenthinking” of everybody. It makes me so sad to hear of folks that go through the inner struggles that I go through because I know how it feels. The feelings of doubt, worthlessness, struggles, sorrow, suffering and failure but we know that all is common to mankind no matter where we live or are in our spiritual journey. It would be nice to live in the safety and carefree thought of a child in the arms of their parent with our God. He would like for us to live our life abundantly with no worries but the scars of life way heavy on our inner soul. Being “Born Again” with all things new has great implications for us. One might learn to take life with a little more enjoyment rather than drudgery and seriousness.

  63. Rajnesh says:

    Lately, I’ve been finding myself at a crossroad concerning one of my loves. I can go from feeling absolute joy from my time spent here at RBC to just
    like that creeps in doubt as I turn to other daily
    activities, in this case music. Metal being genre of
    choice. Hmmm….I feel like listening to Mudvayne (?:)
    well, maybe Mud isn’t so bad) or Marilyn Manson or NIN or Black Sabbath, just some examples. At a concert I’ve come across my Christain brothers with megaphones and signs “warning” me that I am putting my “gift of salvation” in jeopardy.

    This has been bothering me quite a bit lately.

  64. Rajnesh says:

    Me too Pooh. I soooo enjoy hanging out here. :)

  65. Lively says:

    Raj –

    I ran into that the other day, was listening to a guitarist that I’d never heard of.Zakk Wylde. I’m guessing that you’ll know who he is, even if I didn’t. He has amazing talent and what I heard were two of his acoustic pieces, he was wearing a cross, the lyrics were good – no hint of his claim to fame. I’m also guessing you can imagine my surprise when I found his website – I’m still clueless to “who” he is at this point and I’m thinking – no, surely this man is a Christian! Then I read an interview with him, suffice to say, he is prone to some colorful language. Judging by the fruits, he is no Christian.

    For everyone here who doesn’t know who he is/was – he was the lead guitarist for Ozzy Osborne.

    While I don’t think the music puts your salvation in jeopardy – I will point out another issue you may want to consider – whereas this kind of music doesn’t make you stumble – it is possible that it could cause someone else to stumble (such as those protesters – I’m curious to know what you would do if one happened to be someone you knew, personally). Perhaps it would be wiser for you to not be so public in regards to your musical tastes. I smoke, I have been trying to quit for years – but so far without success (I’ll be struggling anew next week; we’re going to try and quit, again). I will not smoke when I am with another Christian (aside from my husband) I enjoy the occasional alcoholic drink – but unless I know a fellow Christian and where he/she stands with alcohol, I will not drink around them. I don’t do this to hide what some may consider a vice; I do it because it’s our responsibility to consider our fellow Christians in matters like this.

    Romans 14:19-21 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

    And, because of Pooh, I double check the context of each verse (such as above) I post to ensure that when one of my posts uses verse it is properly used and can’t be construed any other way. I do it because I respect her as a Sister. I expect her to double check behind me and I want her to find that I am on solid ground and if she isn’t sure, I hope she asks that I clarify. (I mean this completely as a compliment, Pooh – you’ve brought a new level of accountability to my words)

    What irritated me so much about Zakk Wylde was, I can’t share his talent with others. I posted a link on my facebook page and my brother-in-law’s response was, “….” I didn’t understand what he meant, until I found out who he was – now I get it. He knows I’m not a fan of Ozzy – I’m sure it confused him that I’d link to his lead guitarist.


  66. Lively says:

    Oh, Steve… have you seen the forcast for next weekend? Snow Friday to Sunday, oh I do hope they are very very wrong.

  67. foreverblessed says:

    I very much enjoy participating, and reading all your comments! My bible study time has increased considerably. And my praying too, praying for one another here! Grace and daughter, I hope you are comforted.

    Inhishands wrote, doubting wether her children had chosen for God: At those times, Jesus softly reminds me that my life has not always been a reflection of one saved.
    I really liked that!
    For one thing is sure: God is more merciful then we are.
    We are worrying to much about this.
    For some reason God saw it fit that it be written as it is written in Hebrews 6:4-6
    Maybe for some people who take it to lightly. It will be all right in the end sort of thing, and do not reach out to God.
    It is also a matter of really trusting God.
    About Hebrewes 6: 4-6, if you read on a bit further, it says in v9: Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case- things that accompany salvation. God is not unjust ..

    DO we believe that?
    So why worry if we believe that God is just?
    Aren’t we doing GOd a misfavor. Rather search for God.
    Pslam 136 His love endures forever,
    and it is repeated every verse right into the end.

  68. foreverblessed says:

    And another thing, he writes: Hebr 4:9 concerning you. and with you he means, us, including the people that are laid on our hearts, we pray for. Intercessory prayers. (yes tandgmartin!)
    Isn’t much of our christian “work” intercessory prayer?
    oswald Chambers wrote a lot about it.
    Not a nagging prayer, but real ones, with our hearts in it. What would our prayers be if we thought for each one of them, ones saved always saved? We would get to easy on it. When we are not sure we put more effort into it. As if it is a struggle for spirirual life and death! And it is.
    It is only a thought, do not shoot me for this thought.
    God is on the winning side.

    I do not like the idea of “you can lose salvation” and “watch out or you will be in hell”
    But maybe God finds it nessecary to sometimes preach it.
    I say, sometimes, for some people who need it.
    But we should not worry about our loved ones, rather do intercessory prayer. As long as we feel an urge about their spritual state: pray for them.
    Rockdude, I feel with you, will pray for your son too.

  69. poohpity says:

    Lively, I smoke too. Laughing about the scripture thing. I am not going to be the bt police anymore. I will just keep an eye on my own use of it. lol. That is between other folks and God.

  70. Lively says:

    Forever – Not going to shoot you… lol but I don’t agree.

    I don’t think my prayers would be less fervent knowing that once saved, always saved. Because, what I want for my brother’s and sister’s in the Lord is everything. When I see the Lord working in the lives of others, often He is teaching a lesson and it’s tough on him or her. I pray for him to find relief, I pray that he gets the point He is trying to make, quickly. I pray that he would find strength and pull closer to Him. But, above all, I pray that the Lord’s Will is first and foremost, that His will and desire be accomplished on this earth. If that means that someone I love, or care about, or know, or sometimes, I don’t know shall suffer I pray that everyone who is touched by the pain is strengthened in resolve of his faith. It’s not a prayer I pray often, but it is a prayer that comes from absolute faith and trust in Him.

    Pooh – I guess I’ll have to be satisfied to be accountable to myself, and most of all – Him. But, know this… He used you to open my eyes to it – or in laymen’s terms… you started it! Lol


  71. foreverblessed says:

    Stacy, I totally agree with you, that’s how I pray too.
    And for Terry and Dale, suicide and becoming gay are not the unpardonable sin.

    What Jesus says in John 10:28-29 stands true we can count on that.

  72. foreverblessed says:

    And Raynesh, you stated you have depressed thoughts. To be honoust these black metal people have some pretty depressed lyrics. Why expose yourself to it, the more when you want to be in a more uplifted state!

  73. SFDBWV says:

    Last evening I was watching some TV and enjoyed listening to Joyce Meyers. I always like her messages but I don’t often get a chance to do the TV thing.

    Her message last evening was about legal people who always want to tell you what your doing wrong.

    It is one of thoes sermons that when you hear it, you say I already know that.

    It most always comes down to the division of thinking that is called the Law vs Grace.

    Smoking is no sin. It isn’t healthy for you or others around you, but no sin. Listening to music others don’t like is no sin either. It can cause moods. Sometimes the mood is creates is agressive, but not a sin.

    The personal relationship with the Holy Spirit will speak to you about any habit or activity that you practice. If there is a problem, the Holy Spirit’s job is to convict you of it and cause you to align yourself with what the Spirit of Christ wants. Not the critic of your livestyle.
    Yes a fellow Christian should *gently* attempt to guide you if your are actualy slipping into sin. But carefuly and gently as to not make matters worse.

    I am one of thoes people who almost never *hear* the lyrics to most songs. It is the music, the melody that moves and touches me. The human voice being the best musical instrument.

    Once you learn that God’s will is always going to be done, no matter what. Your prayer life becomes very serious. Asking always to be in His will, while asking for mercy for yourself and all thoes you love and hold up in prayer. Realizing it is His will and your will coming into agreement that creates miracles.


  74. Lively says:

    Steve – I agree (of course! lol) But, as I’ve seen you post in regards to taking other Christians “growth” into consideration when you post, I think you’ll agree that it is important that in a public venue it’s best to err to the side of the legalist for the sake of our fellow Christians.

    I’ve been thinking about (reading about) the ultimate sin. I’ve learned that many website out there are just plain wrong. About half a dozen of them I’ve closed my browser window on before getting past the second paragraph because I’ve found fault in their interpretation of scripture. Most of what I’m about to say is my own observation regarding the issue.

    Matthew 12:22-37 seems to be the pivotal verse. I’ve added it to this post at the bottom. What I find interesting regarding this verse is, though Jesus likely heard (or it was relayed to him) what was said, it was their THOUGHTs that He was speaking to (Matt 12:25 Jesus knew their thoughts). Outwardly, it is the words (fruit) that condemn, but it is the inward spirit that grew the bad fruit. Furthermore, they had the knowledge of the Coming of Christ and can’t be held blameless by lack of knowledge.

    Another thing, the Pharisees seemed to react rather mildly at the prospect of Satan himself being among them. “It is only” can you imagine? Oh, it’s only Satan, God’s public enemy number one – not that we care he’s literally at our footsteps doing these things – sure we’ll stone to death many of God’s prophets and eventually we’ll get around to killing Jesus – but it’s only Satan – no biggie. In my humble opinion, they knew they were lying.

    My conclusion is, blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is more than a simple repudiation. I now believe it requires that the blasphemer has knowledge and understanding of the Trinity. I believe that it requires more than just words; words are empty vessels without the power of conviction behind them. A couple of place that I found said that the blasphemer probably didn’t even know he or she did it. I don’t agree. In my mind, at the moment of blaspheme, the one who commits this sin will know without a doubt that he has put himself out of God’s reach, forever never to be redeemable, never to know the power of His Saving Grace. Finally, I think this does illustrate that the act of blaspheme is one committed by those who are not saved. While the Pharisees were widely regarded as Godly men, they, to state the obvious, were not Saved.


    Matthew 12
    22Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

    24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebub,[d] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

    25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    29″Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.

    30″He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

    33″Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

  75. kingsdaughter says:

    About the lyrics to music…I have been through this with all of my children. This day and age the secular music is appalling. My son, who was a weightlifter, listened to metal…a surge of inharmonious sound with lyrics not conducive to positive thinking and yet he claimed it was that very sound that pushed his energy…gave him a jolt that would “fire him up.” When he lived at home, I would listen to those cds when he was gone…I threw out those cds…some were absolutely horrendous…many were shouting obscenities…no clear message but rage. The hip hop that my middle daughter so loved was thrown out as well if I did not approve of the lyrics! I am posting here one of my most beloved writings from Plato whose wisdom on this timeless matter spoke volumes to me and that I tried to impart to my children:

    You know that the beginning is the most important part of any work, especially in the case of a young and tender thing; for that is the time at which the character is being formed and the desired impression is more readily taken…

    Shall we just carelessly allow children to hear any casual tales which may be devised by casual persons, and to receive into their minds ideas for the most part are opposite of those which we should wish them to have when they are grown up?
    We cannot….
    Anything received into the mind at that age is likely to become indelible and unalterable; and therefore it is most important that the tales that the young first hear should be models of virtuous thoughts…
    Then will our youth dwell in the land of health, amid fair sights and sounds, and receive the good of everything; and the beauty, the effluence of fair works, shall flow into the eye and ear like a health-giving breeze from a purer region, and insensibly draw the soul from the earliest years into likeness and sympathy with the beauty of reason.
    There can be no nobler training than that.


    Plato’s Republic


  76. kingsdaughter says:

    And of course, I know the “more nobler training” is to bring our children up knowing our Lord. That is my addition to his.


  77. kingsdaughter says:

    I think i should have used the word “salvation” somewhere in my posts….perhaps, I have swayed from topic… :(


  78. SFDBWV says:

    Stacy, I will always err on the side of grace. If that is possible. Even if an offender doesn’t appear to deserve grace. Because from a Legalists point of view, no one would deserve grace, only judgement.

    In reality we all desreve judgement. In Revelation 5, we learn that no man in heaven nor earth nor under the earth was found to be worthy….except the Lamb.

    Yes I would agree with you that my public appearence should always present the face of Christ. I would only add that my private appearence should also.

    By my trying to live an example of Christ, and not showing myself to be like the world; If I am doing so, then like Jesus, I would not condem the adulterous woman, nor scold the woman at the well. But rather point the way to forgiveness and to the one who it is that forgives.

    In my understanding, the unforgiveable sin is the rejection of Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. For without Christ there is no covering for our sins and thus no forgiveness possible. The hardening of ones heart and closing of ones ears to the Gospel, will lead to spiritual death and ultimitly death in all it’s stages.

    Hope you have sunshine today.


  79. poohpity says:

    I tried to get my children to think for themselves and at first I did throw a few things away but found that they would listen behind my back. I wanted to achieve an open relationship with them. I would ask them about their music and what was the message it was saying. It caused them to think and to make choices.

    We spend so much time filling our beautiful minds with garbage we loose our peace. Philippians 4:8-9; 8Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

    It is good to help our younger people realize there are different options out there but the choice is up to them. My parents made all my decisions for me and led me to believe that I was incapable of thinking for myself by their constant need to control me. I fought back by using substances they could not control that. God also helps us see the options and does not control us. Just like whether or not we can loose our salvation. We get the information then we are able to come to a conclusion and learn to use the brains we are given. Freedom of choice.

  80. Rajnesh says:

    (: Good Morning :)

    Usually I rush to read the newer posts. Today, I started as if for the first time.
    I like how Mart trailed it off with let’s compare notes. Which is exactly what I did on ODB 11/30. I was struck hard by…Imagine thinking that you are headed for Heaven, but discovering that your ticket is no good. And it basically concludes that…BELIEVE and the gift is yours.
    So, I’m going to program myself and cast away all doubts and fears.

  81. xrgarza says:

    Hello all I have missed you, my pc is working a
    And thanks for the prayers for my mother and family.
    This happens to be one of my favorite subjects, when I was younger I forever believed that I was going to carelessly lose my salvation. To the point that when at the age of 25 I simply prayed “I might as well accept the fact that when I die I will spend eternity in hell” simply because I was taught that everything I did was a sin, and sinners go to hell.
    Within the last 20 years the Lord has been teaching me so much about my relationship with Him. When He walked this earth He often shared truths using parables. He has given me that gift as well.
    You have heard me say this before, when I don’t understand a spiritual or biblical principle I bring it down to the natural, and visa-versa, a true principle will work in both dimensions. Please allow me to share, please excuse the rhetorical questions.
    As a citizen of heaven I am also a citizen of America. I also asked myself these exact questions years ago can I really lose my citizenship of Heaven. If so can I also lose my citizenship of America?
    Well no! And how do I know that I am a citizen of Heaven or of America?
    As an American, did I pledge allegiance to the flag this morning? Or did I read the constitution? How do I know that I am really an American? There is only one way to lose my American Citizenship, I must defect, similarly that is the only way that I can lose my Heavenly Citizenship.
    Now in America we have poor examples of Americans, Homeless, Drug addicts, Murderers, Robbers, Gang Members, etc etc. They are still Americans.
    Similarly there are poor examples of Christians; if they have accepted Christ as Savior then they are Christians.
    Now are good people Christians? In America we also have people that live here that are excellent examples of American Citizens but come from other countries and have never become citizens for whatever reason; they will not be able to enjoy the full benefits of being an American citizen. Similarly No matter how good you are, if you have not accepted Christ as your savior you will not be able to enjoy all the Blessings that are available to All who accept Christ and that is eternal Life.


  82. InHisHands says:


    I will be praying for you in your struggle with smoking. I had a 35 year habit of (Off and On)smoking. Even quit for a 6 year period, to take it up again for yet another year. Thought I had given it over to the LORD, but never getting the relief. One day another past smoker related her story to me – she said that she had prayed and prayed that the LORD would take the desire for smoking away and one day the LORD (still small voice) related that there were other areas He was working on and that He would take care of the smoking issue in His time. My smoking habits were like yours, only in front of my hubby, etc.

    I took that to heart and prayed accordingly – when stepped in He took the very desire away. That was 20 plus years ago, then about 10 years after that my hubby was given the same blessing.

    He will deliver, in His time. Meanwhile remain, as you have, faithful to Him and His guidance. Enjoyed your comments.


  83. Rajnesh says:

    Lively, I remember and agree few days ago when Pooh cautioned about mis-quoting.

  84. kingsdaughter says:

    well, pooh…I can only say for myself that I cared very deeply about my children from early on…so much so that I have always cared about the influence they are under while living under my roof. They knew from early on the things I knew were not holy and approved for a Christian upbringing. I NEVER thought they had enough wisdom to have free will as children. My allegiance was to my Lord and how the Bible says to raise up a child in the way that he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it. As they grew into adults, I had hoped that some of that training that I held dear to me would stick. I also, remember when I was 12 and John Lennon made the remark that he made about Jesus…that my father wanted me to break all my Beatle records…that did not set well with me as a teen and of course, I never broke my records. The words that are subliminally passed into a mind is what I feared…especially in an uncensored world. As the parent..I was the censor…God gave me that noble position as mother to make decisions for my very unwise children. It’s as if a child who has no one to tell them to fire is hot…they will get burned if you do not say to them THE FIRE IS HOT. At the time of my cd censorship, it was our money paying for such trash. As adults they had the option to return to it. I think your parents were right. You were not capable of making decisions unless it was do you want a hamburger or a cheeseburger…NOT…do you want to hear about all the suicide songs or the love and praise of our Lord or simple lyrics about love….you be the judge now that you are an adult.

  85. Rajnesh says:

    Thanks Steve! The word legalism is new to me. Yes, majority of the time it’s the sheer power of the instruments is what draws me.
    On the other hand, in line with what foreverblessed said, this possibly sounds really weird but it seems that these dark lyrics make me feel alive. Basically, al it does is feed the “negative” emotions in me.

    ( Sorry to go of topic )

    Xavier, good to see you bud. Hope all is well.

  86. daisymarygoldr says:

    Good and very beneficial (to me) post, well-balanced teaching that absolutely aligns with the scriptures!

    Concepts like “Once saved always saved”, “Eternal security” are very strange to my ears. Never heard or thought of them all throughout the growing years of my life and also do not find such doctrines anywhere in the Bible.

    Instead, the Bible is clear that God’s spirit will not always strive with wickedness of human flesh as seen in Noah’s day and Jesus told us it will be the same even in our day of grace.

    If after being saved by grace we persistently indulge in sin to reject God’s grace, then at a certain point the Holy Spirit will be quenched i.e. extinguished.

    So it is not just turning up or down the burners on the stove, it is turning off… thanks for the good analogy rockdude 5!

    And without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, there is no more conviction. Under complete deception every sin will be justified as no sin and we will then continue in our sins because we refuse to believe it as sin which is nothing but “unbelief”.

    This exactly is the state of apostasy—“falling away from grace”, to “turn away”, to “shrink or look back” (like Lot’s wife) and is likened to “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

    And that is when the believer commits the unpardonable sin of unbelief… not because God refuses to pardon but because we refuse to repent hence “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance”.

  87. daisymarygoldr says:

    For many, this blog is worthwhile to share and find comfort in each others struggles and failures… but for me it is really worthwhile when I come in and get to read about an over comers’ success in Christ right amidst those struggles. Although rare, it is a refreshing treat… delights my soul and makes my spirit rejoice. Was much blessed by the comment of chrystophyr!

    To continue with the topic- “Can Salvation be Lost?”, 2 Peter 2 tells us that many followers of Jesus “will follow their immoral ways and lascivious doings…

    Forsaking the straight road they have gone astray…those who turn away from knowing Jesus and become entangled in the world’s corruption are worse off than they were at the beginning.

    BTW, sins that lead to death are not just the obvious ones… but also include disillusionment that causes us to depart from the faith… leads us to distrust and eventually to desert [Him Whom they ought to trust and obey] (Matt 24: 10)

    “Turning down” of the Holy Spirit causes spiritual disease and “turning off” results in spiritual death (James 1:14-16)! Spiritual death is so subtle that a spiritual corpse will not be aware of its dead condition. That is why we should not quit the assembly of saints and always stay in the fellowship of believers.

    Yes, “it is impossible to distinguish real Christians and spiritual look alikes” but it is always possible with spiritual discernment to see fellow believers who are deceived by false doctrines to doubt, waver and err and stray away from their faith.

    Therefore, James, the brother of our Lord urges us that whoever turns a sinning believer “from his evil course will “save” [that one’s] soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins [procure the pardon of the many sins committed by the convert]. (James 5:19-20)

  88. poohpity says:

    Sorry to disagree kingsdaughter. My parents were not correct in their parenting and the children suffered. When the bible teaches us to train up a child in the way THEY should go. It means to pay attention to the child look at their gifts and help them to flourish in those areas not the areas the parents want for them but to be able to make good decisions for themselves. This is a whole different subject than the current topic. I was not saying anything about your parenting that is not for me to say. I was relating what happened to me as a child and how I chose a different path in my parenting.

  89. daisymarygoldr says:

    Agree “we all need to know our own hearts and what we are really counting on”- MDH

    So, when I examine my own heart in the light of the scriptures, I was saved by grace when by faith I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior during my childhood days. It was much later as a teenager, I understood the gift of salvation is not to merely rescue me from Hell.

    Of course it translated me from eternal death to eternal life. However, the story does not end there because God’s purpose in my salvation extends much beyond that.

    His purpose is to transform a sinner like me into the image of His Son… and that requires me to completely yield myself to the work of the Holy Spirit, to obey His commands and to choose the narrow way of the cross.

    One cannot accept Jesus for who He is without surrendering to the work of the cross. To follow Christ means to carry the cross. Which means to deny oneself of sinful pleasures, to endure suffering, pain, shame, rejection, sickness or sorrow that tests our love and proves our faith as genuine… and through all of this only… those “that endure (in faithfulness) unto the end (of life), the same shall be saved.”

    The apostle Paul is careful lest he “should become unfit [not stand the test, be unapproved and rejected as a counterfeit].”(1 Cor. 9:27).

    And so, I am also careful to not simply bury the gift… but diligently work out my own salvation with fear and trembling to keep my garment of salvation from getting spotted and defiled.

    Certainly I was not saved by my good works but I am saved to do good works… even if it is dismissed as legalism. And I always count on that selfsame saving grace of God which trains me to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age [living a life that is good and filled with] beneficial deeds. (Titus 2:11-14)

    Jesus Himself warned us- His disciples, “…he who perseveres and endures to the end (emphasis is on end) will be saved [from spiritual disease and death in the world to come]”. Matt 10:22

  90. Lively says:

    Normally, I post in response to many comments – but this time I’m not. Except to say; it’s sunny here, Steve.

    Daisy – I’m not sure what other sins lead to death (unless you are talking about physical death) as the bible clearly says that all but one sin is unforgivable. I’m not going to post the whole verses that I’m referring to, the post is already pretty long and would become far too large if I did. But so others reading this won’t have to scroll up and down, I’ve copied your comments :-)

    Daisy said: “BTW, sins that lead to death are not just the obvious ones… but also include disillusionment that causes us to depart from the faith… leads us to distrust and eventually to desert [Him Whom they ought to trust and obey] (Matt 24: 10)”

    Matthew 24 is speaking to the end times – if you continue down that area of the verse

    Matthew 24:13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

    If I remember correctly, this is a precursor to Revelations talking to those who become saved during the Tribulation. Matthew 24:10 is speaking to the ones who are not saved.

    Daisy said, ““Turning down” of the Holy Spirit causes spiritual disease and “turning off” results in spiritual death (James 1:14-16)! Spiritual death is so subtle that a spiritual corpse will not be aware of its dead condition. That is why we should not quit the assembly of saints and always stay in the fellowship of believers.

    And while I 100% agree with you that we should stay in the fellowship of believers, I don’t take the same meaning away from James. Again, it is in the words used that (in my opinion) you see that James is talking to a “mixed” group – those saved and those not. In James 1:9 he speaks to “the brother” who is poor and then in 1:10 he speaks of “the one who is rich” ending with 1:11 “the(rich) man will fade away”

    But, for me, the telling verse is

    James 1:12 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

    To me, this verse speaks to the salvation of the man.

    Daisy said, “Therefore, James, the brother of our Lord urges us that whoever turns a sinning believer “from his evil course will “save” [that one’s] soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins [procure the pardon of the many sins committed by the convert]. (James 5:19-20)”

    James 5 took a big longer for me to figure out – what strikes me as odd is the whole verse doesn’t make sense. To be saved and to cover a multitude of sins seems contradictory, until you look at more of the chapter above. I believe James is reiterating James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. In my opinion, this is speaking to the power of prayer. I believe that James is referring to actual physical death, not spiritual death.

  91. kingsdaughter says:

    DMG, I am glad I don’t have to live up to doctrines just to think that when I fail that I will go to hell for backsliding. What a miserable existence that would be. People are turned off by religion for that very reason. Legalism. I am saved by grace and I want to do right because of it…but, I am still flesh and I still sin. Thanks to Jesus I recognize when I sin and am repentant. But, as sure as there is breath in me I will probably sin again…and again. Not deliberately but because I am human and cannot obtain perfection…I am still baking (so to speak) and will not be taken out of the oven until I get to Heaven. I admire someone who strives to be “sinless” but I don’t know anyone except Jesus who actually WAS. We should all strive to be like Him but we will miss the mark..that is for certain. This is why I am so happy about God’s grace! If I have to rely on myself…then I am doomed. We must have a degree of faith to even come to the idea that we need Christ. For in our humaness we would not come to that conclusion.

    I have learned so much from reading “Mere Christianity” by C.S. Lewis. My pick of the week for understanding salvation written by a convert to Christianity from atheism.

  92. daisymarygoldr says:

    Lively, thanks for your comment! What I have posted is intended just for me “when I examine my own heart in the light of the scriptures…”

    And kingsdaughter, you are in my daily prayers…

  93. Lively says:

    Maybe it’s the headache I have – but I’m confused, Daisy! Got it, that was in the post below the one I commented on.

    But, must comment on that one… lol. Matt 10:22 was prior to the Work of the Cross.

    I’m off to find a dark corner, was at docs office this morning and someone was wearing a heavy perfume – fighting a migraine, it’s winning.

  94. daisymarygoldr says:

    Take it easy Lively:) Pray and hope your migraine will go away and you will feel much better by the end of the day!

  95. Anna777 says:

    I am one who walked away from the Lord. I was saved when I was in the 5th grade. I was raised in a church that was very legalistic. They believed you could lose your salvation. As an adult I went through all the motions of living as a Christian, which I honestly believed I was. I won’t even state the “reason” I walked away from the Lord. It really doesn’t matter what the reason is. The fact is I did. For 7 years I wandered and ran. I learned later that people thought I had become so hardened to God … they gave up on me. The reality was that even though I was living in a way that was absolutely not pleasing to God, he never left me and I know that. While, during that 7 years, no one ever witnessed to me or invited me to church, God still allowed things to happen that would always remind me of his love for me. In November of 2001 God brought me back. I will never forget that time. I have never turned back. My eyes are on the Lord and by his grace I will forever serve and honor him. The God we serve is a God of forgiveness and restoration. The path of repentance is a hard road. But through that time, as he was restoring my soul, restoring the years the locust had eaten, he never ever left me. I have a compassion for those who have “fallen away” that I know I would never have had. I know without a shadow of a doubt that I am going to heaven. I am forgiven, covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. Many wonderful scriptures have been cited here. I won’t repeat them. Suffice it to say, I’ve experienced the mercy of God, his comfort, his forgiveness, his restoration. It is real. I am his. He is my Lord and Savior. Forever.

  96. foreverblessed says:

    Anna 777, thank you sooo much for telling your story.
    Your story reminds me of the dream I had last night, I was sitting in the back of a car waiting for my family to step in, when the car suddenly started to run on its own. Here I was, sitting in the back, o dear, this is not going fine, the car was moving on the road heading towards the side where trees were standing. I tried to get forward, to the handbreak, but that took a long time, as it always does in dreams, and the car almost hit the trees, but swayed to the left, just on time, heading towards a pole on the left, it just missed that too. The car missed a car coming up. Finally I got the car stopped by the handbrake, and realised how much the car had missed, it was a miracle. It was horrendous, all sorts of things could have happened and yet nothing had harmed the car.
    And immediately the thought came, that’s how it is with salvation, You could lose your salvation, but it will not happen. Because of God’s grace. He will come to help, a shield around us, with prayers of fellow christians,even with His angels. Just like Anna.
    None that are in Jesus’hands will be lost.
    Sorry DMG, all your citing of verses still are true, we are warned not to willfully stay in sin. Willfully and freely. But most people who sin, are bound, are not free to brake, even christians, say those who are addicted. They need deliverance. (and in God’s time He will work on it)

  97. Anna777 says:

    Foreverblessed, it is always a blessing to share what Christ has done in my life! You are so right about God’s shield. I could tell of so many times when I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, God sent angels to protect me. I thank him for that every day.

    The scripture that God used to bring me back was James Ch 1 v. 13-24. I picked up a Bible and read that scripture. The Holy Spirit convicted my heart beyond anything I could ever imagine. And it happened in a moment! I wept, then I wept, and I wept some more. I asked God to forgive every sin. I asked him to help me step by step to walk with him. No matter what the cost….I was willing to pay it. I knew that he would never leave me because he never had. I couldn’t possibly go into “the story” here, but suffice it to say, God’s Word is true. His promises are true. If there was one thing I could tell someone who is running from God, or has been running and now wants to get things right with him, it is this. If you are running, stop. It will only get worse. If you are running but you are sick of it and want to come back to God … do it! He’s waiting with open arms to welcome you back and he will never leave you! Get in the Word. The Bible says “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God”. (Rom 10:17). I feasted on God’s word. Prayer was/is my lifeline.

    Thank you so much for your response. It was a real blessing!



  98. kingsdaughter says:

    Daisy, thank you for keeping me in your daily prayers. Today is the first day of the last month I saw my son alive this time last year. I did speak to him by phone on the day he died. I miss him so very badly. I have even thought of joining him. I will be going to counseling starting tomorrow. Please pray that I will not have any more of the dark days that have enveloped me this past week. I came very close but the only thing that made me snap out of it was fear.

  99. Anna777 says:

    Kingsdaughter – I’ve just joined in on this blog. I just wanted to tell you that you are in my prayers as well. My heart just aches for you. I can’t say that I know how you feel. I don’t. I have never suffered that deep a loss.

    I’ve read that the best thing someone can do when a friend (aka: sister in Christ!) has suffered such a loss is to just “be there” …. without saying anything. If I did that all you would see is your name with a blank screen reflecting my “silence”. I will be praying for you that God will comfort you as only he can.

    Wish I could send you a hot cup of tea.

    You are in my prayers.


  100. phpatato says:

    Thank you Dear Lord for planting fear into Dale. I too, as a result of years of suffering a debilitating deep dark depression had thoughts such as yours, at one point on a daily basis. I too didn’t do it out of fear. God had His hand on me; I felt His protection. My prayer is that you NEVER experience those kinds of dark days again, and we can claim that victory in Jesus’ name. Amen.

    I love you my dear Sister in Christ.


  101. Anna777 says:

    Take it from someone who has strayed away from God and come back home. It’s real. God forgives. There is no sin God cannot or will not forgive when we truly repent and ask his forgiveness. When I came back to the Lord, every once in a while, Satan (the great accuser) would rear his head and make me question my forgiveness and my new life in Christ. One day I realized that when Christ died for me (my sins) on the cross that day, he died for ALL of them. He died for them before I was even born. His blood covers my sin. Clearly, my goals completely changed the day I came back to the Lord.

    I don’t want to sin. I want to glorify my Savior in all I do. That doesn’t mean I don’t sin. It means that when I do I quickly bring it to the Lord, ask his forgiveness, and move on. I already had the forgiveness when I accepted Christ, but when I mess up the lines of communication with the Lord are cleared by asking his forgiveness, claiming it, and moving on.

    I believe that the unforgivable sin is total rejection of the Holy Spirit (not accepting Christ as your Savior). Are some sins greater than others? Well, I can tell you this….the sins like stealing a piece of bubble gum, or condemning someone, or gossiping are all sins that need to be confessed and, with true repentance, are forgiven. Now I can tell you that some of the sins I committed caused a greater separation between me and God. They were “bigger” as far as the damage they caused to others and to myself, but most of all I believe the grief I caused the Holy Spirit. But they are ALL forgiven. The climb “back up the hill” (repentance) is much more difficult because of the “fall out”. The good news is that with Christ all things are possible! We don’t climb back up that mountain alone. God never leaves us. I had to be willing to count the cost. I was. I do it daily.

    I can honestly say there has not been one day, in the years I have been back with the Lord, where God has failed me. I am forgiven and restored. I have a new life in Jesus Christ. The Bible is full of examples of God’s forgiveness.

    John 3:17 says it all. “For God did not come into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.

    It sounds like you really have a deep desire to serve the Lord. Isn’t it a blessing to know that by the power of his Holy Spirit we can do that? I’m pretty sure I couldn’t do it in my own power. I tried that. It never worked.

    Rejoicing in His magnificent Glory and restoration,


  102. kingsdaughter says:

    Thank you new sisters, Anna and Pat for your prayers. Your concern is much appreciated.

    Elena….ALL of our names are in the Lamb’s Book of Life from the beginning….we are stricken from it for rejecting Christ. That is what that verse in Rev. is referring to.

    It is not possible for us to work out our own salvation. It is done for us by grace through the faith God instills in us. To think that God would take back our salvation already provided through Jesus’ blood would make a mockery of His sacrifice. And it would also place more importance on the Law than on Grace. We would live a hellish existence always wondering if we were approved of each and every day. I have to disagree with your position.

    In Christ,

  103. Lively says:

    Elana –

    Everyone falls back into sin, as that is the human condition. That was the reason for the Work of the Cross – to redeem us because the law was incomplete. Moses and his kin were under the law, not under grace – we have grace.

    It is in the fruit that you will know the Christian, we’re told that many times. A good tree bears good fruit, while a bad bears evil fruit. A Christian will always strive to please God, although we will sin we will strive to correct it because we know that although we are not worthy of His grace and His mercy – he gave it to us anyway by the Blood of His Son. A good tree (a saved person) simply can’t produce evil fruit.

    I fear my Heavenly Father as I feared my earthly parents – only more so. My fear is that I will disappoint, it’s knowing that I will disappoint. My delight is, I know He will love me none-the-less and yes, I take that for granted. But it is my desire to make Him happy with what I do with my life on this earth.


  104. Lively says:

    p.s. I don’t mean to imply that it is ok to disappoint Him I always strive not to – I’m saying that I have accepted that I will.

  105. Lively says:

    and p.s.s I meant to post this yesterday, but the headache got in the way.

    Steve – I didn’t mean to imply that I have a double standard by my public and private behavior. I guess the best way for me to put it is like this, if I had a vegetarian over for dinner, I would not serve steak.

  106. poohpity says:

    Elena Prayer of Hope, It would be good to read on in the Exodus chapter 32 down to verse 35 that says; “And the Lord sent a great plague upon the people because they worshiped Aaron’s calf. It does not seem as if they were worshiping the God who had just shown them the great miracles He did to free them from Egypt and then decided to worship a god formed by the hands of man. So these tasted the grace of God and then in turned to worship an inanimate object.

  107. poohpity says:

    We are not saved by the law but by Grace. One sacrifice for all, for all time. For those who choose to believe. What a person does with that? God is the only one who knows a persons real heart and can look past the do’s and don’ts.

  108. poohpity says:

    Well Elena then I have lost my salvation because I sin everyday maybe not on purpose and then again sometimes on purpose.

    I was given a gift for my graduation from high school a car but I failed to do as my parents wanted me to do so they took the car back. I did not loose my graduation, I lost their approval. I do not feel God does that! He gave me the gift and it is mine forever. Forgiveness for my sins, past present and future.

    I am not trying to change your mind on what you believe, I just can not believe that for myself.

  109. Lively says:

    I’m firmly with you on this, Pooh. God doesn’t do takey backey. What would the point of the cross be, if he did?

    Also, I think there are things that you can take for granted, and not stop appreciating. Taking for granted does not mean neglecting. I take for granted the sun will shine (most) days. It doesn’t diminish the joy of the sunrise, or the peace of the sun setting.

    I’m actually glad you’re so verbal in your disagreement, Elena. I respect your views, and in seriously considering what you have to say, I’m more resolved where I stand in this issue. There is a freedom and strength and above all, a peace in knowing that nothing that can take me from Him.

  110. foreverblessed says:

    Lively, pray that God will in time send you relief from your migraine! And I’ll ask if it could be today!

    I feel that I know what Elena is saying, if you persist in sin you are on slippery ground.
    But who wants to stay in sin? Willfully and being free to chose?
    When you have tasted that the Lord is good- sorry for the “christian” talk.
    But to come back to what Mart wrote, everybody needs to know what is in their own heart.
    If I have chosen to follow God, to be in His love, why would I worry myself about losing my salvation?
    Better focus on God. There is the source of Hope, and Joy.
    Read all the posivie scriptures in the bible, lots of them have been qouted here.
    If you read all the exhortations, day by day, where is the balance? Liek Phil 2:12
    Work out your own salvation, Oswald Chambers wrote about it. God worked the salvation IN us, we work it out. He put love in our hearts, we have a cheerfull face for our neighbour, just to give an example.
    If we have no works, I would say, check your faith, do you really believe you have been forgiven? That you can be so thankfull as Anna is, What a thankfulness, She is not a bit worried that she will lose her salvation.
    Whn you have been forgiven much, you love much was the ODB of today!

  111. Lively says:

    Thank you, forever! It is much better today – I caught it soon enough :-) I’m very blessed that mine rarely go to the most severe stage of having it for days at a time. At worst, I’m a bit tender headed for a few days.

    I do understand where Elena is coming from. I agree, if you persist in sin, you definitely need to do something about it. As you said, though – why would a Christian want to willfully be in sin! Though, if sin wasn’t fun or self satisfying in some way, why would we do it at all? (and if you can’t talk “Christian” here, where can you?? lol) I should probably add, Elena while I don’t think a Christian can lose salvation, I firmly believe that there are serious consequences for Christians who persistently sin. Our Father in Heaven will punish us, but His punishment will be with fairness and love.

  112. Lively says:

    Elena –

    I do hope you meant, punishing us for sinning!

    Romans 6:19-23 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!

    **22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.**

    23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    The wages were paid by the Blood of the Lamb.


  113. Anna777 says:

    Foreverblessed –

    I appreciated so much what you said about the fact that we have the freedom to choose to not sin! We are no longer slaves to sin because of what Christ did on the cross.

    You know I was thinking about something that happened to me about two years after I came back to the Lord. I had been really under attack by Satan. I was starting to have doubts regarding whether or not I could really be forgiven. Now mind you, during this time, I wanted to live for him. It was strange because I knew I was forgiven (in my heart) and yet Satan was really hammering on me. In retrospect I know now he did not want me to walk a victorious Christian life! I know the many victories God has brought since that time!

    Anyway, I had my little five year old granddaughter at my house. She had snuck upstairs and saw my necklaces hanging on my jewelry “tree” in my bedroom. I was loading the dishwasher so I guess I kind of lost track of time….(wonderful grandma). Anyway, about five minutes after she’d gone upstairs, she came down and was standing on the landing of the stairs, overlooking the kitchen where I was. She had big tears streaming down her face and through the stair rail, she reached her little hand through and there in her tiny hand was all of my necklaces, completely tangled, in a ball the size of a golf ball. She looked at me and said “Grammy….I’m so sorry. I knew I shouldn’t have done it but they were so pretty and shiny. I thought I would just touch them and then they all got confused and the more I tried to make them right the worse it got.” These were her exact words. They are burned in my brain. My eyes welled up with tears, because I knew God was showing me his love and forgiveness through my granddaughter. I hugged her and told her that there was never anything that she could ever do that would make me not love her. Nothing. I told her that I was so glad she came to me so I could fix it. I thanked her for her honesty.

    She sat and watched as I unraveled all the chains. I finally (2 hrs later) got them all straightened out and laid them out on the table. Was there some damage done? Yep. Did they look as pretty as they had before? Nope. Did I care? Not one bit because it was through her that God taught me that he does the very same with us. I had tangled up my life into one big mess. I did not ever see a way out. I figured that I had just gone way too far. Not true! He brought me back!

    Every day is a new day in Christ. I have determined in my heart to serve God. I love the fact that when I mess up (and oh yes I do) he is right there with open arms accepting my request for forgiveness and then helping me grow.

    When you think about the fact that it is his power that holds everything together, he’s named all the stars in the sky that are greater than the number of grains of sand, he knows how many hairs we have on our head (and now in my 50’s my chin), he knows when a sparrow drops from the sky. He loves us! He forgives! He restores!

    I love to talk to him. I love that we don’t have to dress up our prayers with thee this and thou that. I love that he knows our hearts before we even speak. He knows our needs before we even know our needs! I love to listen to him in the quietness of my spirit (after I ask him to quiet and calm it!).

    We serve a mighty God.

    Thank you my dear sister in Christ for sharing. You are a blessing.


  114. poohpity says:

    That was beautiful, Anna. The hair on the chin thing was so funny and I’m right there with ya.

    Elena, sin is never taken lightly in my life but it happens everyday. Are you able to go a whole day with out one sin. If it is as you say we loose our salvation when we sin. I am confused then how many times do I have to believe and accept what Jesus did on the cross to have my sins forgiven for my salvation?

  115. Lively says:

    First, Anna – thank you so much for sharing that story, it brought tears to my eyes. I love the way the Lord constantly uses children to teach us lessons.

    Elena – I don’t think I’m misunderstanding you, but I’m concerned you’re misunderstanding me. First, yes it is wrong to sin. Second, God will correct those who sin, just as our earthly parents correct us when we do wrong – most don’t disown their kids in the process.

    Do you have children, Elena? Imagine this, one of your children gets angry at you because you punished her and she cries out, “I hate you mommy!” She doesn’t really mean it, she’s just angry at you – would you disown her?

    What if one of your children commits a crime, even murder. Would you hate her? Or, would you desperately long for her to repent, serve her sentence and come home to you?

    What if your child was to walk away from you, turned her back and never looking back – would you pray for her safety and that she return to the family?

    But, what if she was trying to destroy your family, deliberately? Would you send her away? But, would you also pray for her to change?

    I believe these are the normal reactions from loving parents, and to paraphrase verse, if I, a sinner know what is good for my children, imagine the good that our Father in Heaven would have for us. I try to make peace with the imponderables by attempting to look at them through the eyes of a child, or through the eyes of a parent.

    In an earlier post, you said “But for those who do not understand the cross like you say…” I find myself wondering, how do you understand the Work of the Cross?

    Finally, Elena it is my belief that a Christian doesn’t want to sin, but as we are human we must accept that we will sin and strive against it. A non-believer doesn’t care if he or she sins, but I do so I fight against myself in order to please God – not to make myself worthy, but to make Him happy. It’s the only gift I have to give Him. As a mommy, I know how wonderful it is to see my children succeed I can only imagine the joy He feels when we succeed in His name.

  116. grannyj says:

    Anna, your analogy with your granddaughter with respect to God’s forgiveness was so perfectly understandable and beautiful that I had to register and join the blog. I rarely become involved in these things but your post inspired me to become one of the group. Thanks for making my day.

  117. Lively says:

    Ironically enough, this isn’t an issue that can be resolved to agree to disagree. I can, but you can’t – not for selfish reasons or out of stubbornness but out of true concern of another’s status with God. Even though I don’t agree with your stand, I respect your tenacity and faithfulness to His Word.

    I found four times you referenced scripture, Rev 3:5, Exodus 32:32, Phil 2:12 and Romans 6:23. I don’t think that any of these truly indicates that you can lose salvation. I can see where there is the implication, but I don’t see it verbatim.

    Rev 3:5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will *never* blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

    It doesn’t say He blots names; it says He will not blot names.

    Exodus 32:32 is prior to the Cross, salvation was impossible under the Law, that’s why they made sacrifices to our Lord; it was a precursor to the ULTIMATE sacrifice, our Savior Jesus Christ.

    Phil 2:12-13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

    First, the word therefore indicates it should be linked with the previous verse, specifically,

    Phil 5-11
    5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    6Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    7but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    8And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    and became obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!
    9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

    But, even more importantly is Phil 2:13 that indicates the state of Salvation, God can’t work *in* those who are not saved, can he? Also, the phrase “work out” doesn’t mean to “work on” or “work towards” but seems to indicate that we should exercise our salvation by trying to be like Christ as indicated in the previous verses.

    Romans 6:23 does explicitly state that sin is death, but that isn’t all that it says.

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Romans 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

    Romans 6:22 specifically says the result of being a slave to God (ie saved) is eternal life. There isn’t anything conditional about the statement; it says the “result” not, “may result”.

    Romans 8:35-39
    Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

    “For your sake we face death all day long;

    we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    It is in Romans that I became convinced. The Word of God states there is nothing in creation that can separate those of us who are saved from the love of God. Surely this means that once His, even we can’t separate ourselves.

    I think I covered all the bases…you’ve really made me work here, Elena! I appreciate it – there is no better way to understand His Word than this.

  118. Anna777 says:

    Poohpity – glad I’m not alone on the chin thing! LOL. I appreciated your comments. I totally agree with you that sin is not to be taken lightly.

    Lively – thank you for your beautiful analogy of a loving parent. So true.

    Elena – I think I understand what you are trying to say. I too believe that we need to always be aware of the need to “protect” the great gift of Salvation. You made the comment that you feel some of the comments made are too relaxed, too comfortable, and not at all aware that the enemy seeks to kill and destroy.

    As we are told in Ephesians, we are to put on the armor of God daily. That is imperative for us as believers because, as we know, it is the power of God that fights our battles for us, through us, as willing vessels.

    Without going into a lot of detail let me say this. I’m aware of what Satan can do. Without opening a “pandoras box”, I will tell you this. I took into my home (for 7 years) a child that had been subjected to all of the evils involved in a Satanic cult. I saw first hand the evil. Having said that, let me say this. While I acknowledge that Satan has great power – his power, while still present on this earth, is defeated. He is a defeated foe. He might try to sideline us as Believers, but the battle was waged and won on the cross. The Blood of Jesus Christ covered us as believers. When Christ rose from that grave on the third day and conquered death for us, it was done! All we have to do is claim it.

    I do not live in fear of what Satan might do. God wants us to rest in him. (Psalms 23) We are to rest on his promises. Yes be wary but you know …. I don’t walk through my house all night looking for an intruder. I trust that my doors are locked and I’ve done what I can do to be safe and I ask God to protect me and my family.

    Studies have shown that accidents increase on a roadway when there is already an accident. Why? Because instead of all the driver’s keeping their eyes on the road, they look at the wreck.

    As a believer, firm in my faith, daily in the word, talking to my Savior I strive by his Grace to keep my eyes on the road. I don’t focus on the enemy or what he might do. Because I know through the blood of the cross I am dressed for battle.
    When the enemy knocks on the door I send Jesus to answer. He is the only one that can overcome. We cannot do it in our own strength.

    LIvely – my heart goes out to you regarding the migraines. I have them as well. Thankfully my doctor finally came upon some meds that really help. I am praying for you.

    You know, I just reread my post before submitting and I realized something. When I said “daily in the word” …. that is the norm. But you know what? I have days where I realize I should have slept in my tennis shoes. We’ve all had those days. Days when I barely have time to even look at my Bible as I see it sitting on my dining room table. When prayer is on the run, behind the wheel of the car or the grocery cart or in the ER at the hospital. Days when I wake up going 50 MPH. But even in those times God is faithful. He is with us. The big difference is when I was walking in my own strength I felt guilty because I didn’t read the Word. Now, with my new life in Christ, I miss it so much. I can’t wait to get the time to savor and digest the word of God.

    James 1:21,22 (NASB) says ” Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted which is able to save your souls. (22) “But prove yourselves doers of the Word, and not merely hearers of the word who delude themselves.

    That is in the ODB devotion for today, and that was the scripture that God used to bring me back to him.

    I promise no more long winded blogs from me! LOL.

    Standing firm in the faith, by God’s grace,


  119. foreverblessed says:

    Anna, thank you so much, and I was enjoying your last post, till the last line, no more long posts?!?
    I was nurtured by it right to the end!
    You even made grannyj post, I hope you keep posting as well!
    Lively thanks for the explanation, Helena has a point, and I sort of get it, if a person deliberately keeps on sinning, then what?
    The first point is, does that happen: a christian who really knows how much it did cost that he could be forgiven, he will not want to go back sinning.
    A christian who is so tired of the sinning is relieved that is is over, that he is bought free. Why would he go back?
    Today we read in thechurch housegroup: Colossians 1:12-
    giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. 13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

    We have been freed out of the dominion of darkness, why would we want to go back?

    And then if we did, like losing your first love, that happens. Revelation 2:4, this verse was quoted to Corrie ten Boom, when she had prayed to God that she was tired, and wanted a permanent home to live for herself. She heard this verse, and heard God speak in it, and went on her mission, preaching all over the world.

    I grew up in a church which would have these warnings every week.
    Week after week all these exhortations, you must have works, otherwise your faith is dead. And work out your salvation, and many many more. You get so tired and wearied.
    And what happens: you are not resting in faith in Christ.
    You start worrying, and after a while you start talking like: however can you be sure you are saved, or that you have achieved the crown?

    But instead this is our focus (the same what Anna says just above, so I repeat, sorry): rest in faith in Christ, and that sounds pretty relaxed. But no other thing is more foundational then that. Anything not of faith is sin. Romans 14:23
    And that faith in Christ is our connection to God, our lifeline, like the vine, and then the fruit develops, when the sap flows through us. Beings in God through Christ.

    And here I stop about this topic about losing your salvation. Here it is late at night, so good night!

    And I like Steve’s first comment on the next topic:
    I think sometimes that is why love is so important over everything else. We just have to love each other enough to coexist without clear answers to lifes questions. While giving each other the time and space to look for themselves and try to share what they have or have not learned. While being patient with all.”

  120. jimgroberts says:

    In the parable of the “Prodigal Son” if you read this carefully. The one son [saved son of God] turned away.
    Later the father [God] says “he was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found. Lk 15
    Yes we can lose our salvation but Jesus the good shepherd will leave the 99 to find the one who is lost. Our security is in turning back and not hardening our hearts. We will not know at which points our hearts are hardened to the point of NO redemption.
    Sow a thought; reap an action.
    Sow an action; reap a habit.
    Sow a habit; reap a character.
    Sow a character; reap a destiny.
    Jesus tells us[saved christians] to pluck out our eye/hand/foot if it offends rather than go into hell with them. Mat 5:29-30
    It speaks for itself.

  121. poohpity says:

    Elena, I rest in the peace of never losing my salvation and you go ahead and struggle over the uncertainty of losing yours. It is ok to believe how you do but it does not need to cause tensions. It seems that there has been assumptions as to how some of us feel about our relationship to God and sin because some do not think the way others do it is sort of like name calling. I can not assume anything about you by reading the few posts that have been written and I for one would not want to say things about you that are not true.

  122. Anna777 says:

    grannyj – Glad you joined the post! I’m glad that you were blessed by what happened with my granddaughter as I was when it happened! God is so good.

    Foreverblessed – I can’t say I won’t ever have anymore long posts, however, it probably wouldn’t hurt for me to be a bit more to the point! LOL. I’ve never even posted on this website before until I saw the topic! LOL. It has been such a blessing to read everyone’s response.

    This topic gets a lot of response! I just believe that salvation cannot be lost “on a whim”. I suppose that there are those who could absolutely renounce their faith (not to be confused with being angry at God (as in the Psalms, Job, etc.) and lose
    their salvation. I know the Bible clearly talks about that. I think you and I grew up in the same church! Every week they’d have you heading up to the altar to “get saved” again! One day I asked the Youth Pastor if he really believed that if I went up to the altar, got saved, left the church building, had anger in my heart towards my neighbor and then a truck hit and killed me, that I would go to hell? He looked at me with a stunned look. Now I know why! Because when we’ve made the choice to accept Christ into our hearts, we are his!

  123. Lively says:

    Elena – you said, “I am not going to twist the scripture here and there,” Do you feel that I have? If you feel I have, please explain – I strive to know the truth.

    forever, I’d wonder if a person who persists in sin is actually saved. 1 cor 5:11 – it’s the only answer I know as I truly believe those saved desire to do right by the Lord and are known by his or her fruit.

  124. depdog6 says:

    I looked up uttermost in the dictionary……God saves to the uttermost those who come to him….uttermost means the maximum.So how far does God go as far and as long as it takes to save us……How can God say one thing and do another………

  125. Lively says:

    Thank you for responding, Elena it would have bothered me no end if you hadn’t. It’s tough when you’re just figuring all this stuff out.

    Have a lovely night everyone!


  126. laus says:

    Yes. It is possible for a christian (saved sinner) to fall back. In the begining, when God created man, He kept the tree of life and tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden where adam and eve were there [Genesis 2:9]. The information about the fruits from these tress were given to them. What will hapeen to them if they eat the fruit was also told to them. In addition to that, advise was given to them to eat the fruit from tree of life and not to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

    However the final choice is left to man !!!

    Same way God’s salvation is open to all. The choice to be made by man. Further after getting saved, there is a need to protect or keep the salvation also. We need to fight the struggle in the world and we have to emerge as winners. In revelation we see the letters to the seven churches in asia. At the end of each of the letters, it is written, something will be given to “those who are victorious”. The end of the day blessings or privilage of entering heaven will be for victorious people.

    We see the lucifer who was once the angle of God fell down. The man is having his own desire to choose God or satan. The choice is given to us.

  127. Austine says:

    My definition of “loss of salvation” is this: A man dies and his name is not in the lamb’s book of life.

    When I say man, I am talking about people – men, women, boys, girls, etc.

    My stand is that it is possible to temporarily lose one’s salvation, if sin is not confessed. I do not think that it is possible to permanently loose one’s salvation, when one is still alive. As long as one is willing to confess a sin, God will forgive that sin. Permamnent loss of salvation would mean that God would not forgive even after confession and genuine repentance. Even those sworn to Satan or think they have commited the vilest sins can obtain forgiveness if they confess and genuinely repent – the blood of Jesus is that pure!

    A person is born-again when he accepts Christ and His redemptive work on the cross. At that point his name is written in the lamb’s book of life. If he sins, I believe his name is removed until he confesses. 1 John 1:9 states that “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness”, and ALL means just that – ALL! Why would we need to confess sins if our names are never removed once we are born again? I know what you must be thinking. John must have been talking about folks who were never born again in the first place. Listen to what he says in 1 John 1:7 “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” He is talking to people who “walk in the light”, and he is telling them that “the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin”, so he is talking to Christians.

    Is it possible to confess a sin without genuinely repenting of it? Does the phrase in 1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins” refer to “lip confession” only or “lip confession AND heart repentance”?

    I think “lip confession” inceases the chances of temporary losing salvation. If a christian confesses a sin without genuinely repenting of it, then chances are that he will persists in that sin. Mind you, I am not saying that he will lose his salvation, I am just saying that the possibility is hightened.

    Here’s why. If a christian CONTINUES to sin, he gets to the point where he becomes addicted to it – a slave to that sin. Even when he confesses, he knows he is going to sin the next moment, so he just goes through the motions. There comes a time when confession becomes a charade, and progresively he does not even bother to confess because he knows it’s a waste of time. I have been there and it’s an incredulously dangerous place to be in. The way out is to genuinely repent of that sin.

    If you love a sin so much and will not let go, you lose your salvation if you die without confessing that sin. Let me stress here that God loves us so much that He will forgive ALL sins. What I am saying here is that we can get to the point where we will not forgive ourselves. We just go through the motions of confessing because the taste of that sin is so sweet that we can’t wait to get back to it – even whilst confessing.

    The way out is to interprete 1 John 1:9 to mean “lip confession AND heart repentance”. We may fall into the sin again and again, but if we really hate it (I mean really hate it), we will eventually overcome and not “continue in that sin”, but we have to hate the sin first to genuinely repent. Let’s not kid ourselves with the false doctrine, “Once saved, forever saved” and go ahead and wallow in sin and go through the motions of confessing, whilst loving the sin all the time. “Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.” Romans 6:1-2.

    So I believe it is possible to temporarily lose one’s salvation, when a person lives with unconfessed sin. Do not even toy with the idea of sinning and confessing later. It’s a tunnel you may never come out of. You do not choose the day you will die. FLEE ALL SINS!

  128. poohpity says:

    Austin, so one can TEMPORARILY loose their salvation? What about the parable of the prodigal son or the lost sheep? How about Peter’s denial of Christ? So in essence if we sin then there must be the thought of one sin is worst than other then God would erase their name from the book of life. I then would feel like a yo-yo. I do believe that once one is saved they can loose their fellowship because of sin. I also believe that we can choose to go our own way but my name is still in the book of life. If we have lost our salvation and do not have the spirit of God living in us how then do we recognize the sin.

    So if it is as those who believe that salvation can be lost then did one truly believe in the first place that Jesus died on the cross for their sins and was raised one the third day which is the way one gains salvation in the first place so they would no longer believe that?

  129. poohpity says:

    Forgive me for miss spelling Austine.

  130. poohpity says:

    And worst instead of worse than another.

  131. Anna777 says:

    Poohpity – I sure do appreciate your posts!

    I just have to believe, which I do, that the verse I cited earlier kind of says it all. John 3:17 – “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved.”

    My kids raised “bummer” lambs. They are lambs that have been orphaned. They were very fragile. We had to bottle feed them every couple of hours around the clock. They required great care.

    As they got older, we were able to release them into the pasture. I went out one night to feed them and found I was missing one. (Yes … he was “the little black sheep”.) It was pouring rain, cold, and dark. I took my flashlight and started walking through the whole pasture. I called for him until my throat was sore. About an hour into the search, which seemed like 5 hours, I heard his weak little cry. I looked and looked. Couldn’t find him. I knew he couldn’t have gotten out of the fence we had or could he? I started praying that God would help me know where to look. I opened the gate and walked up to my front porch (which we never used). There huddled in the corner was this little baby lamb. I didn’t look at him and say “Well buddy …. looks like you’re out of luck. You left the flock and not only that, you found a way through the fence, so you are on your own. Are you kidding? I picked his shaking little body up, wrapped him in warm towels, gave him a warm bottle and put him in the barn with the rest of the flock. I looked for reasons to help him live.

    I have to believe, based on the Word of God, that if I would do that for an orphaned lamb, how much more does God love us? As I have said in many of my past post, I do believe we need to cherish the gift of Salvation. As believers we should bear fruit out of love for our Lord. Having said that, I was one who had fallen away and God sought me out to bring me back into his fold. That’s how much he loves us. I choose to focus on the Savior and his sacrifice for us on the cross. I choose to live for him, and by his grace, always serve him.

    I was just thinking how awesome it’s going to be when we are all in heaven one day. Do you think we’ll be able to look back and remember our blogging here? Won’t that be a glorious day when we are with him?



  132. Lively says:

    Austine, you said: “If you love a sin so much and will not let go, you lose your salvation if you die without confessing that sin. Let me stress here that God loves us so much that He will forgive ALL sins. What I am saying here is that we can get to the point where we will not forgive ourselves. We just go through the motions of confessing because the taste of that sin is so sweet that we can’t wait to get back to it – even whilst confessing.

    I am going to quibble on a word – but it is an important word, so bear with me. Confessing means to admit to – it has nothing to do with being contrite and even more importantly, with repenting. Repenting isn’t JUST admitting to a sin – it is a heartfelt change in thinking and in action. Repentance *requires* that you take accountability and make the needed changes to stop sinning.

    Again, I have to say – if a man who “calls himself a brother” continues to sin I would question if he was a brother in Christ, or if simply a wolf in sheeps clothing.

    And, just because we are under grace doesn’t mean we get to sin.

    Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

    And, Anna – I loved the story of the lamb.

  133. poohpity says:

    Anna, I was a prodigal child also. I accepted Christ when I was nine and by the time I was fourteen I started using drugs and alcohol until the age of 35. I heard His voice calling be back into the fold as your little lamb did when it was lost. The Lord could have blotted my name from the book but instead He came looking for me and brought me home again. I am so forever grateful. Everybody else had given up on me because of their humanness which is contrary to the Love of the Lord. I would like to take specific scriptures out and apply it but through my 17 years of reading every year I grew to understand since the very first separation from God He has sought a lost world of people. I can not ever think that once we are found that He will ever give up on us. He has never given up on all peoples because He went to the Cross for those who choose not to accept it as well as those who do. So would that same God who went to such extreme measures blot us out of the book. That is not the same God that I have a relationship with.

  134. poohpity says:

    I was also thinking about how God wrote the Ten Commandments with his finger. It was etched with the finger of God not written with a pen or pencil but with His finger. How could something as valuable to Him as we are with our names written with the finger of God in the book of life be erased?

  135. Anna777 says:

    poohpity – How true! Your story touched my heart. Isn’t it an incredible thing to experience that tender love of the Lord? I too am thankful that God never gave up on me. Quite the contrary! There were many times when I should have not even survived and yet he always protected me and brought me through.

    I have a heavy heart for those who have strayed away and feel that “it’s too late” and they feel like they can never come back into fellowship with the Lord. As you and I have learned first hand he doesn’t let go of us during our weak times. He is always there to welcome us back into a strong walk and fellowship with him.

    Lively – I’m glad you enjoyed the story of the lamb. God teaches us in so many ways!


  136. poohpity says:

    Amen Anna! It is not just a story that has happened in our lives it is in the history of God’s people through out the pages of scripture from Genesis to Revelation through 2010. Do we not worship a merciful, loving God. It has been quite a privilege sharing the love of the Lord with you and your writing is outrageous.

  137. Anna777 says:

    poohpity – That is so true. Throughout God’s Word, time and time again, he reveals his love for mankind.

    You know, I was thinking about Peter. Here he had denied Jesus Christ three times. We read in John 21 about how Jesus actually sought Peter out. I believe he was comforting Peter because of what Peter had done. He was telling Peter to “feed my sheep”. That doesn’t sound like he was telling Peter he had really messed up and it was over for him! He was telling him to follow him! Peter had repented!

    Yes …. we do worship and incredibly merciful loving God. This is such a blessing for me as well.

    I have to go take my husband for some medical treatments tomorrow so I may be away from the lap top for a couple of days. Thank you for your fellowship via the internet! Such a blessing.

    Your sister in Christ,


  138. Lively says:

    Anna –

    Hopefully, you don’t live anywhere near this nasty storm coming up the east coast of the US – my prayers are with you and your husband.


  139. poohpity says:

    Dearest Elena, although you had said you were going to let this conversation die obviously you have not. I can not speak for anyone else but my relationship with the Lord although not perfect, is in process of becoming more like Christ. I am thankful that being a follower of Jesus Christ my garments are white as snow the only conviction I feel is from a sister in the faith not from the Lord because as Mart opened this topic he stated, “The Bible offers strong warnings about the danger of “falling from grace”. But does that imply the possibility of losing the gift of salvation? This question has divided followers of Christ for centuries”.

    If you would like to look at the Jude passage with me I will. Jude 20:25 does not exist however Jude 1:20-25 does. If one looks at the beginning of this chapter it says, “Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ: 2Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance. 3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

    Rather than taking the scripture out of context it would seem better to see that Jude was not addressing the salvation but to defend it against heresy. This is about DENYING Christ. If one will notice in the very first verse Jude states that we are loved by God the Father and KEPT by Jesus Christ. I am Kept by Jesus Christ and no one can take me away from Him unless I choose to deny the Cross and what Jesus did on it. I do not deny the cross or what Jesus did, I believe. So it is not about whether anyone is right or wrong it is about keeping the peace between us and hold tight to the faith we both have in Jesus Christ. That I believe is something we both share and maybe the next topic will help us both grow in the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

  140. poohpity says:

    poohpity is the name of a dog I was had that was faithful and loving. My given name is Deborah. I did not say thank you for your blessing because I felt that it was given in anger not a heart felt blessing. So far I have been given nothing but judgment and criticism in the responses that were given me when you have no idea of who I am. I guess I missed the love somewhere. There is no pride in my response only being very defensive of my salvation and trying to let others know that once one has accepted Christ it is possible to fall from grace but I believe that once you are God’s you will remain His. I find no compassion, mercy or peace in the hurtful words that have been thrown around toward me. What I have read seems sarcastic and critical when it is God who sees a person’s heart and is the judge. If I have caused you to feel anger in anyway I apologize that was not my intent. The only good teacher in all this is the Lord and I hope others will look to His word and the Holy Spirits direction and teaching not mine. If I have lead anyone down any path I hope it is one of forgiveness and mercy. Again I apologize if I have incited any anger in you.

  141. Lively says:

    Well, as I too did not respond to your blessing, Elena – I feel the need to respond. Like Pooh, I did feel there was an edge to words. But, that wasn’t the only or even the main reason I didn’t respond with a thank you. Mainly, I felt like it was how you signed off.

    I must admit, I am very comfortable with my relationship with the Lord. But, that doesn’t mean that I am complacent with my relationship with Him. Do I worry about losing my salvation, nope. Do I worry about falling from His grace – yep. Grace is not the same as salvation. Do I worry about sinning – you better believe it. Do I worry that He will blot out my name – no way!

    Matt 4:5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6″If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
    ” ‘He will command his angels concerning you,
    and they will lift you up in their hands,
    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’ ”
    7Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ ”

    Just because I’m certain I will never lose my salvation doesn’t me that I shall test my Lord God.


  142. Anna777 says:

    Stacy – Thank you so much for your prayers! I took my husband in today for his treatment and it went very well. My grandkids and daughter and I all gathered around and prayed over him before he went in. I give all the glory to the Lord for this wonderful blessing. I will be praying for you with this storm that is headed your way! I live in the Pacific Northwest so no storms for us right now. Stay warm!

    You know when I was waiting in the doctor’s office today for my hubby I realized something. I am so thankful that there are no cruel surprises as believers in Christ Jesus. Isn’t that awesome? He’s so faithful, when we mess up, to touch our hearts, speak to our spirit, and help us get the lines of communication cleared up again. He shows us what we need to do, how we can serve him and honor him. I love that serving Jesus Christ is in the Light! 1 John1:5 says “This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is LIght, and in Him there is no darkness at all.”

    Elena – Can I ask you something? – Do you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are saved? When I have been reading your blogs, I feel sad because it doesn’t seem like you really know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are. It seems as if you feel that being saved is like a balancing act. By what you have written, I get the impression that you think if Christ came back at one moment you might make it, but if he came back an hour later, you’d miss the boat. I’m just wondering. Please correct me if I’m wrong. It’s quite evident that you love the Lord. And please know, I don’t say any of this in judgment. I’m just a little confused. I’ve read your blogs and you don’t have to repeat them. I am just wondering if you have that assurance. I’m not talking about “taking Salvation for granted” – I’m talking about claiming the Gift of Eternal Life.


  143. Anna777 says:

    hhElena – I want to make sure I made myself clear …. I do not in any way question your salvation….I would never do that…I am just asking about your assurance…confidence in the gift of Eternal Life.

  144. Anna777 says:

    Elena – sorry for the typos! I’m having technical difficulty!


  145. Anna777 says:

    Elena –

    How wonderful. That is the key isn’t it? We must take that step based on our belief in God and accept him as our Lord and Savior through the gift of his Son Jesus Christ. It is then that we can have the assurance that we belong to the Father.

    I understand your concern for those who have never accepted Jesus Christ. As you experienced yourself, believing in God is not enough, we must accept the gift of his Son Jesus Christ, which is what you did. I understand your heart is heavy for those who do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. As the Bible says, even the devil believes in God and trembles! It is accepting Jesus Christ into our heart that gives us the gift of salvation. And it’s free to all who ask!

    As we stand firm in the faith, we can work to reach out to those who need to have that personal relationship with Christ.

    What a blessing to know that as believers we can commit our way to the Lord and standing on our faith in him, and by the power of his Holy Spirit, live to serve Him. That sets us free to share what Christ has done for us!

    I am always encouraged when I can look back on my life since I have accepted Christ and seen the growth that comes by the power of the Holy Spirit. It is never in my own strength that I can please God but through the power of the Spirit of God himself, which he freely gives. God loves us so much that we can ask him to help us with anything and he will help us. Even reading the Word!

    Thank you again for clarifying for me. May God bless you in your walk and service to our loving, forgiving, Father.


  146. Lively says:

    Elena! Now what you’ve posted makes such sense. I think many of us have similar stories of our youth.

    You said, “I am one of those people, who thought they were saved, but I was not. Because I did not fully obey God. Thats why I am so passionate, to express one can lose their salvation. I know the difference. God took me out of the miry clay, and I have never been the same since.

    You said you believe you weren’t actually saved – you couldn’t lose your salvation because you didn’t have it at the time!

    You can hold a gift a mighty long time before opening it, especially if it was like a gift I got from my Aunt Harriet. I knew it was a hand knit scratchy sweater I’d never be caught dead in. I left it wrapped, stuck in the closet until the next time I went visiting. I wrote the generic “thank you so much it is lovely” note and sent it to her.

    I suppose, you could say that I technically accepted or even received the gift. It sure did look like it, but it sat unopened gathering dust on a dark shelf. I thought I knew what was in that box, I gave the proper lip service of thanks – but I think everyone would agree – there is little point to an unopened, unused gift. I never claimed my present. I regret not opening is sooner – it wasn’t the ugly scratchy sweater I thought it was.

    It was a dark blue v-neck vest sweater with ribbed edges. She had sewed one of her own labels in it. I wore it to her house the Christmas after she gave it to me. Eventually, I donated it because it didn’t fit anymore. In some ways, I wish I had kept it – something tangible to hold as she has since passed away. But, that would have been selfish since I couldn’t use it anymore and I knew someone else could.

    You chose to rip the paper off, you open the box and you claimed it – at that point salvation became yours. Others might choose to leave it in the closet. Some might even eventually throw it away.

    If that is what you mean by “losing salvation” I actually agree with you. I believe 100% that everyone has that gift in his or her hands. But, I don’t think that salvation is yours until you have opened the box and claimed it. And, at that point – it’s yours forever, never to be lost.

  147. Lively says:

    I am too tucked out to actually reply in any meaningful way – shoveled a great deal of snow – but wanted to at least post.

    Thank you, Elena.

    I truly pray we all have a blessed night, tonight.

  148. Lively says:

    tuckered out, even lol

  149. poohpity says:

    Romans 8:38-39; “38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[b] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. That is the assurance of our salvation. After we accept Christ we are saved, it is not dependent on our behavior but on what Christ did on the Cross. It is not about human beings or doings but it is about God looking at us through the blood of Jesus which creates justification for us. To loose salvation one would have to not believe all that Jesus did on the cross.

  150. kingsdaughter says:

    Elena, I have read your posts with interest and concern. I do not think you will lose your salvation. You will sin, though…and perhaps not even know it unless you are convicted by the Holy Spirit. What if you have harbored a bad feeling toward someone and find it hard to forgive..or you say a bad word…or you are proud and boastful…or lie…so many different sins..but sins are all the same to God. And what if you die suddenly with unconfessed sin but you know Christ in your heart? Are you going to hell? The God I worship knows my faults, my sin, my heart, and has delivered His grace to me through His Son Jesus Christ whom I accept. Upon acceptance when I was 12, I also confessed I was a sinner. When I know that I have done something sinful, I repent. Because I do know the Lord, any repentance I have is genuine. I do not believe you can take for granted a gift. GIFT means to give….GRACE. Unmerited Favor!

    All of this has been said in a different yet similar manner already. I think what separates us here is doctrine that has been ingrained into your mind. I am glad I know you cannot lose salvation because otherwise every single day I would be enslaved to the LAW….no better than a Pharisee. It would mean I rely on my own actions to be saved instead of Jesus’ action to release me from bondage. Thank GOD I AM FREE.

    I understand what you are trying to say about people just sinning because they are “covered”….that is between them and God. It is not for me or you to decide the sincerity of salvation of another person. I recommend reading “All of Grace” by Charles Spurgeon. This will help you to understand those who really receive the gift of salvation…the gift of grace and who bear fruit by striving to do the will of God…to love Him by being obedient to His commands. Remember for as much as you have quoted there is much you have not from God’s word. I find comfort in knowing that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:23 BUT PLEASE READ ALL OF ROMANS 3. It says so much more than this verse and is too much to post here. Speaking the TRUTH in Love.

  151. foreverblessed says:

    just curious to know,what does tuckered out mean?
    It also took me a long time to understand: LOL
    Laughing Out Loud.
    like ha ha
    Maybe some singing and dancing here together, and maybe some laughter? We can be so glad because God has covered us. We are His, thanks to Jesus.

  152. kingsdaughter says:


    “tuckered out” here in the South means…TIRED!

    uh oh…i thought LOL meant “lots of love” HAHAHAHA ..or rather LOL. ;)

    I am so very happy to know I will be with Jesus when I die…to be with Him and all of my loved ones.

  153. poohpity says:

    We error by not knowing the character of God and trusting in ones own knowledge that maybe flawed. It is always better to direct folks to God not to our human understanding.

  154. poohpity says:

    I guess the operative word would be “argue” and that causes division. That is not of God. If there has been anger or self righteousness then that also is not from the Lord.

  155. Lively says:

    I have been trying to not post – but I would like to point out – if you expand Matther 7 out and look at the preceeding verse:

    15″Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. **20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. **

    21″Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    Again, it is not that you can lose your salvation – these “evildoers” never had it to begin with. Key verse is 20.

    If you’re concerned about your personal status with the Lord, examine your fruit.

    You simply can’t lose something you never had.


  156. poohpity says:

    Stacy, even by the testimony given one can tell that even after excepting Christ at a young age and falling away they were sought after just like the disciples who walked away they were restored. The proof was in her own testimony. The battle is the Lord’s, so let us not sin in the discussion.

  157. kingsdaughter says:

    God’s grace…”Grace that is greater than all our sin…”

    I don’t think we should “argue” either…I think I will just shake the dust off of my feet…

    In Christ Forever,

  158. poohpity says:

    Elena, I thought you may be interested in an article in “answers to tough questions” called “Is it possible for me to lose my salvation”. If you go to the rbc.org home page and look in resources, you will find “answers to tough questions” type in the search bar “Is it possible for me to lose my salvation” it is a interesting read and I thought you may like it. With all respect, Deborah.

  159. poohpity says:

    Elena I believe God could do whatever he wants because He is God. Since you could not find this topic I will cut and paste for your benefit.

    Is it possible for me to lose my salvation?

    It’s been nearly 2,000 years since Jesus Christ personally offered forgiveness of sins and eternal life. Of the millions who have accepted His offer, many have found the peace and joy of knowing they have a secure relationship with their Lord and Savior. Others, however, haven’t felt as secure. Some routinely struggle with confusion and uncertainty, wondering if they’ve lost their salvation in Jesus Christ because of something they have or have not done.

    It’s a frightening and tense place to be in when you are uncertain about where you stand in your relationship with Jesus Christ. Understanding the basis and the nature of salvation can eliminate much of the uncertainty that some Christians feel regarding their relationship with Jesus Christ.

    The Bible stresses that salvation completely rests on trusting in Jesus Christ’s death on the cross as full payment for our sins ( John 3:15-16,36 ; Romans 3:22-24 ). Faith alone is the basis for our salvation. It is not based on our own merit or performance ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ; Titus 3:4-5 ), nor is it based on the amount of our faith. It is the object of our faith that matters. Trusting in Christ (not anyone else, including ourselves) brings salvation. A strong sense of security settles in our hearts as we realize that while we are the fortunate recipient of God’s grace and mercy, we are not responsible for earning it. It’s free!

    Additionally, the Bible teaches that we are eternally secure when we solely trust the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior. This is the eternal and binding nature of the salvation that Jesus grants. Jesus said that He gives us eternal life and we shall never be lost. He declared that no one can take us out of His or the Father’s hands ( John 10:27-30 ).

    In the same way, the apostle Paul wrote that those who have trusted in Christ for salvation are eternally saved. He stated, “There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” ( Romans 8:1 ). He went on to say that absolutely nothing can separate us from God’s love ( Romans 8:35-39 ). So then, according to the Scriptures, we can confidently believe that we are eternally secure if we have placed our trust solely in what Christ accomplished on the cross as full payment for our sins ( John 5:24 ; 1 John 5:13 ).

    If we could somehow lose our salvation in Christ, then Jesus and Paul would be liars since they both described the gift of salvation as eternal ( John 3:16 ; Titus 3:7 ). Eternal means that it never ends. Our salvation is permanent. In other words, once we are saved, we are always saved.

    God doesn’t give us the gift of eternal life and then take it back if we are bad. Our eternal security is not based on our ability to be good or perform, but on the promises of God ( John 3:16 ). Moreover, any attempt on our part to say that we can somehow earn and maintain a secure relationship in Christ is an affront to God. It strips Him of glory and lessens His remarkable offering of grace and mercy to an undeserving world.

    Although we never lose our salvation in Christ, we can lose the enjoyment of close communion and fellowship with our heavenly Father. For example, when my daughter sins against me, it temporarily hinders our ability to be close and enjoy each other’s company. But even though all is not well between us, she never ceases to be my daughter. The same is true for those of us who have trusted Christ as our Savior. Whenever we sin against God and put distance between ourselves and Him, we are still His children who are secure in His love. That is why in Luke 7 Jesus told the sinful woman whose faith had saved her to “go in peace” ( Luke 7:50 ). She could rest and not worry about where she stood with God. That relationship was eternally secure.

    We will sin as Christians, and our sin should grieve us. But it shouldn’t take us by surprise. The apostle John said, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” ( 1 John 1:8 ). Most importantly, there is no sin we could commit that would cause us to lose our salvation. The apostle John added that God is willing to forgive all of our sins if we confess them ( 1 John 1:9 ). He didn’t just mean the total amount of our sins, but the various kinds of sins as well. In other words, God forgives and cleanses us from every kind of sin possible. His mercy has no limits.

    Dan Vander Lugt

  160. poohpity says:

    Those were not my thoughts they are from the bible.

  161. poohpity says:

    My heart weeps for you Elena.

  162. messagepoetry says:

    The Bible states:

    But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered.

    Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

    Yet you say,the way of the Lord is not just…..Hear oh house of Israel. Is my ways unjust? Is it not your ways are unjust? if a righteous man turns from righteousness and commits sin, he will die, for it, because of the sin. He has committed he will die.

    But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right he will save his life. Because he considers ll the offenses he has committed and turns away from them. he will surely live and not die. Yet the house of Israel says he The ways of the Lord is not just.

    Are my ways unjust Oh house of Israel. Is it not your ways that are unjust?

    Therefore Oh house of Israel I will judge you each one according to his ways. Declares the sovereign Lord.


    Turn away from all your offenses, then sin will not be your downfall.

    Rid yourself of all the offenses you have committed and get a new heart, and a new spirit. Why will you die Oh house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. REPENT AND LIVE.

    Ezekiel 18:24-32

    These scriptures uphold the fact that God will punish sin, to those who are not repentant. And what I find very interesting, is that the works, that one did before, will not be counted for he or she, when they stand before God, they will not be remembered. God can remove someones name from the Book of life. Whoever would sin, before or after salvation, is taking a chance of eternal damnation. This proves without a shadow of a doubt, That yes, Salvation can be lost. He or she will not have life with Christ eternally, they will face the consequences of death. God will judge.

    But there is only one name that can save, and that Jesus Christ.

  163. poohpity says:

    Romans 6:23; For the wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

  164. Lively says:

    I for one firmly believe that we’re talking apples and oranges.

    Apples – those who are not truly saved though they may say they are and Oranges – those who are.

    I don’t think it was happenstance that yesterdays sermon included the following verse – I immediately thought of this post. Forgive me for going backwards in the scripture, but I find sometimes when you look at something in an odd manner (yet keeping in fully intact) it is easier to see the truth, Check out verse 24 it’s a doozie.

    Galatians 5:22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    **24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.**

    25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

    Those who belong to Christ fight our sinful nature.

    However, the warning against those who do not crucify that nature is in the previous verse:

    Galatians 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. **I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.**

    And to continue looking at this bit of scripture in reverse order –

    Galatians 5: 16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

    If the Spirit doesn’t dwell in you – are you saved? The point of the law was to give people a way to salvation – but did not ensure it. If you are under the law – you are not saved – you can be Godly, you can be righteous but you are not saved. At least, that is what I believe. I remember my prayer 30 years ago – I accepted Christ as my Savior and asked to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Were the Apostles saved when they accepted that Christ was there to fulfill the law? Nope, wasn’t possible because He had not died on the Cross – so they were still under the law.

  165. poohpity says:

    Lively, Abraham was saved by faith alone before the Law. Just thought I would throw a little more straw on the amber, lol. You know the really neat thing is all of mankind falls short and yet Christ went to the Cross for all the sinners in the world, Yea!!! I have heard said that when we get there we will be surprised at who is there and WHO MAY NOT MAKE IT. I think it all boils down to what is in a person heart and only God can see that.

  166. Lively says:

    Pooh – many back then were saved by faith alone! But, it was a completely different set of “rules” prior to Jesus :-P

    I do believe you’re right about what is in a persons heart – it is the key.


  167. birdman3678 says:

    Hi everyone,
    I’m kinda new to this. I’ve been a fan of ODB for years, but didn’t know until recently about this site. To Elena,
    I want you to know that I really respect what you’re trying to do. Waaaaaaay too many “Christians” don’t take their faith seriously at all. The reason I put the term in quotes is because I think that there are a lot of people who THINK they’re saved but who aren’t. They walked down an aisle, they supposedly said a prayer, and now, judging by the way they live, they’re saying “Now that I’m saved, I can live however I want.” I share your concern for them, as I’m sure everyone on this board does. But I have to respectfully disagree. I never like using the term “Once saved always saved,” because that can cause people to have false assurance of salvation. No, I can’t lose my salvation. But if someone claims to belong to Christ but displays NO desire for holiness, NO desire to please our Savior, NO desire to sin less and be more like Christ, then God’s word has no assurance for them. 1 John, specifically written in order to assure believers of their salvation (5:13), tells us that “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.” If someone claims to be a Christian and completely abandons following Christ, then John tells us that “They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.” (2:19). Please note that their going out did not tell John that they had lost their salvation, but that they never really belonged to him.

  168. birdman3678 says:

    So here are some questions for ya:
    1. When Jesus died on the cross, how many of my sins were in the future? 100%? But only a certain percentage is covered by his blood?
    2. One thing I’ve noticed with most folks who deny eternal security is that they tend to be fairly vague about what it takes to lose your salvation. So what DOES it take? One sin, and then I’ve lost it again? I need to constantly, 24-7, 365 days a year (366 in leap years) be on the lookout for any unconfessed sin? Because if I don’t, then WHAM–I’ve lost my salvation, God has blotted me out of his Book of Life, has cast me out of his family, and has handed me over to Satan (since I belong to him now)? Elena, does this sound like a loving Father to you? What would you call a father who treated his children that way?
    3. Please read Rom. 8:28-30. We all know and love vs. 28, but have we paid any attention to vss. 29-30? In this passage there are five groups, those who are “foreknown,” “predestined,” “called,” “justified,” and “glorifIED.” That last word’s not a typo. As far as God is concerned, my glorification (when Jesus returs and I’m given a body like his) is PAST TENSE. It is as much a done deal as the rest of it. In each of these groups, there’s a set number of people who are, in the end, saved. Now here’s my question: Is there anyone in group “A” who’s not in group “E”? Does Christ “lose” any along the way, according to this passage?

  169. birdman3678 says:

    Let me lay all my cards on the table. I was raised in a Southern Baptist church where they taught “Once saved, always saved.” I can’t say that I completely see where you’re coming from, since I’ve always believed in the Perseverance of the Savior (NOT peseverance of the saints). But it would seem to me that to be THIS hung up on trying to convince other believers that they could lose their salvation, and to do it with such vehemence, it seems like there’s a lot of fear in your relationship with Christ. I don’t mean “fear of the Lord” in a good sense, but in the sense of “being afraid that I’ll mess up” like I described in question #2. Do you really get the sense that God loves you and has completely forgiven you? That your relationship with him is based 100% on his grace? It seems to me (and I could be wrong) that to believe that your can lose your salvation COULD lead to legalism. Please let me explain.
    If there’s a possiblility that I can lose my salvation, then is there anything I can do to keep it? Read my Bible more? Pray more often? Witness more to the lost? Confess my sins to God more frequently? Try harder? If there IS something I can do to keep my salvation, then how can you say that all the glory goes to him? How can you avoid the conclusion that my salvation, when it comes down to it, depends on ME?
    My salvation does not depend on Jesus 90% and me 10%. Not Jesus 99.99% and me 0.01%. As the hymn goes “My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness.”

  170. birdman3678 says:

    Let me just leave you with some passages to think on:
    Rom 8:1 (really the whole chapter)
    John 5:24
    John 6:39-40
    1 Cor. 1:8-9 (the CORINTHIAN church!!!!!)
    1 thes. 5:23-24.

    By the way, the passages that you bring up tend to fall into one of three categories:
    A) An O.T. passage that is referring to physical death, not necessarily spiritual death.
    B) A warning to pseudo-Christians who have false assurance
    C) A warning to Christians about the bad consequences of falling into sin and outright disobedience (like in 1 Cor. 11:17-32). Christians who continue in disobedience can experience severe discipline, up to and including physical death.
    In closing, I’m not going to leave you any condescending statement like “I’ll be praying for you to see the light, since you obviously have everything wrong.” But I will be praying, that if you’re living in a “bad” fear, that perfect love will drive it out. His grace, his blood, his mercy is more than enough, and it always will be. Love ya, sis.

  171. poohpity says:

    Welcome, birdman3678! Hope to hear from you and Elena on future posts.

  172. joyful says:

    I am fan of ODB save for this doctrine it holds. Although I believe that salvation is free gift and cannot be earned, the doctrine of “once saved, always saved” is not true at all. When Jesus says that those who come to HIM he will not cast away, He meant that he is always receptive when we come to HIM. But this doesn’t mean that he will save us whatever may, specially when we reject him. When we are saved, our free-will is always there; when we willingly sin continually with out repenting which is affront to HIM, I don’t believe that he saves us. When Jesus saved us, we also get into new testament covenant that HE will be our Lord and savior. We must always act according to the light of Holy Spirit. Remember, Jesus also said, “”And ye shall be hated of all men for My Name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved” (Matt 10:22). Salvation is not a one moment experience: “He saved us, saving us, and will save us”. The first is called justification, the second sanctification and the third glorification which is completed only when our life on earth ends. This is not legalism; this is balancing what Jesus did in our life, and how we have to respond to the light which is given to us. Salvation cannot be earned; but we should fight the good fight to maintain the life- remember any life dies when it is not fed! The latter is not trying to earn salvation by good works- I call it working your salvation out for it is the Holy Spirit who is working it in. So the issue of attitude- since all good works and gift are of God, I have nothing to boast about and nothing to say that I am being saved by my works. I believe those who believe “always saved” doctrine are always picking the bread and butter of the gospel and not the whole gospel which warns us the consequence of rejecting the gospel. I love you.

  173. poohpity says:

    If one rejects the Gospel then they are not saved. If one accepts that Jesus is God, died on the cross for their sins and was raised on the third day then they are saved so to get unsaved one would have to reject what they have believed in the first place.

  174. rjb081342 says:

    We all know for a fact that Jesus searches our hearts. He knows me better than I know myself. We can fool ourselves, but can we fool our Creator? He who died for our sins.

    I believe that in the case of the Undecided? (Do I want Salvation or not?) When He or She stands in front of our Lord Jesus, It’s his decision to make.

    Love ya all,
    Robert J.

  175. birdman3678 says:

    To Joyful (what a coincedence, that’s my wife’s nickname):
    I love you dearly, I do, but I have to ask with all respect, would you mind actually answering my posts? I can answer yours: The way that you know that you’re saved is by the fact that you don’t fall away. If you fall away, then you weren’t saved to begin with. This also goes along with Jesus’ warning that if you deny him, he’ll deny you. And before you bring up the subject of Peter’s denial, HE CAME BACK. He repented.
    Is salvation a one-time thing? Well, that depends on which aspect of salvation you’re talking about. Salvation has three tenses: he has saved us once and for all from the penalty of sin (Rom. 8:1), he saves us day by day from the power of sin (Titus 2:11-14), and he will one day save us from the presense of sin (Heb 9:27-28). But the last part (glorification) according to Rom. 8:28-30 is, as far as God is concerned, a done deal.

  176. birdman3678 says:

    You say that if we sin continually without repenting, then he won’t save us? So it’s not just one sin, then? I’m glad to hear that (seriously). Apparently you’re like most everyone else I’ve met who denies the doctrine of eternal security (Elena’s an exception). Most everyone with whom I’ve discussed this would’nt be willing to say that it’s one sin that throws you out of the Kingdom. But then I need to ask: What DOES it take to lose it? The Bible is EXTREMELY clear about how to be saved. THAT’S not something that you need to guess at, right? So if there’s a danger of us losing our salvaion, then don’t you think that Scripture would lay that out in black and white as well?
    Quite frankly, I think that Elena’s position is a bit more tenable: ANY sin after you are saved, and you’ve lost it. At least it seems that way to me. I like clarity, I guess. If I can lose my salvation, I’d like to know how, SO I CAN AVOID IT. But at this point, in order not to repeat myself, I would refer you to my third post, the one the starts “Let me lay all my cards on the table. . .”
    Again, I would love for you to deal with the arguments (for lack of a better word) that I’ve made. Love ya too.

  177. poohpity says:

    Good luck birdman3678!!! It seems that a lot of folks go on what they were taught in church by a pastor trusting their word to be true. Once someone reads the bible enough times they will see the truth. Excellent effort! I have done some research on why the differences and it was because of different church doctrines I guess that is why we have so much feuding among believers over many issues. The Lord probably says, “Why don’t they just ask me?”. Satan would love to have people live in fear.

  178. MJS says:

    Hi Everyone. What about the verse in Reveation that says He will take our name out of the book of life?

  179. poohpity says:

    Revelation 3:5
    He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. I did not read any verse that says he will take out our name from the book of life. Psalm 69:28
    May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous. But MJS I am open to learn what you are referring to, please show the reference.

  180. bird3678 says:

    Again, gotta love 1 John, which was specifically written to provide assurance to true believers (5:13). One of the great rules of interpretation is “Always interpret less clear passages by using clearer passages,” or something like that. How can we know who overcomes? Do you have a definition? Well, John does: “Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.” Again, if you don’t overcome the world, you were never saved in the first place. The Bible has no assurance to offer someone who abandons the Christian faith or who expresses no desire to please our Savior.
    Basically 1 John offers three tests to see if we’re really saved: 1) Right belief, 2) Right affection (love for one’s siblings), and 3) Right lifestyle. of course we still sin (1 John 1:8-10), but what direction are we heading? Is there fruit being displayed? To be clear, these are tests for YOU to determine whether or not YOU are truly redeemed. If you pass the tests, then you’re in.

  181. bird3678 says:

    Sorry, should have quoted a little more of 1 John before in order to make the point about being an “overcomer.” 1 John 5:3-4 says “This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.” So if you’re born of God, you’ve overcome the world.

  182. MJS says:

    poohpity Rev 3:5
    That is the verse I was referring to. If Jesus says He won’t blot someones name out wouldn’t that mean that it is possible to be taken out. I have some other questions about baptism and the filling of the Holy Spirit as necessary for salvation

  183. MJS says:

    Thanks for answering

  184. poohpity says:

    MJS, I guess it all goes back to how one is saved that is by confessing and believing Jesus is Lord, died on the Cross for our sins and that He was raised in three days. Nothing we can do to earn salvation it is a free gift that is why it is referred to as Grace. The only way it can be lost is for Jesus to undo what he did and for someone to not believe in it. It is up to each person what they do the with the free gift. One could throw it back in His face or live a life of showing that love to others, the same mercy we all have been shown. Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners not because we deserved it but because He is bigger than our bad behaviors. Ask God and read your bible and He will show you all kinds of answers to your questions and things you could have never imagined about His love. You are right He “could blot our names out” but that is not what He said. That would essentially mean we had to do something to deserve His grace and that would be looking at our own behaviors which is prideful and taking credit for His love. That is earning it, not it being given as a free gift. If one would just take time to examine the thoughts one has daily and the things in our hearts you would understand better how amazing it truly is.

  185. oneg2dblu says:

    Lost Salvation? Is that not the state of every person who has not been Born Again?
    Although it is the Lord’s desire that none be lost,
    His discription of the Narrow Road is quite clear,
    any many will not find it.
    Certainly none will find it on their own.
    It is found only by receiving His Direction, and then by an Obedient Following of Him are we found on the protected path to Salvation!
    Only those “Found in Him” will be on the road to their Salvation, because the lost state is a state of wandering alone, separated from God, and being without God, All are Lost!
    God does grant each our own compass to follow, it is called free will, but it does not point to the narrow road He is on, it only points to destinations other than the True North which is found in the Truth of the Word of God.
    You Must Repent from the chosen paths of man, to the Path which Chooses Christ as your Savior, for Salvation comes no other way!
    Only by trying to save yourself in some other way, do you prevent yourself from recieving His Salvation, because no one else can take you out of His Hand,
    only your own wrong choices!
    Freely He Gives, and Freely “you” can take away!

    Your Salvation can’t be earned by your effort, it can only be Chosen!

    In your heart you decide, and God complies by giving you the Desires of your Heart. If you Choose Christ, you Chose Life, for His Salvation is Life Everlasting!

    If you are Still Lost, it is by your effort alone!
    Be Blessed, and Choose Life in Jesus Christ!

    One Act of Disobedience, is total disobedience, for
    you must Repent first, and then you can be Saved!

    It is not a one time event, it is a lifestyle, of Following Him!

  186. poohpity says:

    oneg2dblu, you said, “One Act of Disobedience, is total disobedience, for you must Repent first, and then you can be Saved! Doesn’t that mean that salvation can be lost with a sin? Then doesn’t that also mean that being saved is earned by being good enough which is a unobtainable goal? If God, after we accept what Jesus did on the Cross, looks at us through the blood of Christ is it not true then that we are seen as justified? Justified for past, present and future. Romans 10:9-10 It says nothing about being without sin which is a constant state as human beings.

  187. oneg2dblu says:

    poohpity, you are right,
    I said you cannot earn your Salvation,but you can and must choose it, by Repenting first.
    That is how we choose to accept His Gift of Salavation. It is not given to the un-repentant and disobedient, but only to the one who actively, Obeys and Repents!
    “Go and Sin no more,” were the words of Christ to the sinner at the well!
    Christ didn’t say “try to be good enough to earn your way,” sending her away to save herself!
    He gave her a “Command which requires Obedience,” to equip her to turn her away from her sin!
    He never Saves Us to go on the way we were. “Repent and be Saved,” are the words of the Master! They are active,
    not passive, but Commanded with the Power to Save!
    Being Born Again, is being equipped with His Holy Spirit, giving us the Power over Sin.
    1 Corinthians 10:13 NIV “No Temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bare. But when you are tempted, he will provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.”
    When God “allowed me” to wrap my brain around this power, given by God,to not let sin to rule over me, I found Salvation from Sin, through the Heavenly Breathed Word of God, and freedom to choose beyond my worldly nature, a path of Surrender in Christ over self!
    God does the protecting when we walk with Him!
    But, when we stray, or fall away, we must do the work of repenting for those times “WE” allow sin and the world’s ways to over power us, or we remain separated
    and on our own!
    Our Salvation is in Christ, not in our wandering back and remaining in our old nature, where Satan rules us to be powerless to temptation again!
    Can I forfeit,or fall away form MY Salvation? YES!
    But not while I choose to remain In Christ, for nothing can spearate me from the Love of Christ, when I freely choose to be Yoked with Him!
    Be Blessed! GWW

  188. poohpity says:

    I do not believe you can loose your salvation. There is nothing that can separate me from the love of Christ. I believe as Jesus spoke to the women at the well to go and sin no more was before the Cross and it helped to show her that she needed him because it is impossible to sin no more. Many people as noted in all the posts about this topic have argued this issue for many years. We will have to agree to disagree. Salvation comes from believing (faith) in what Jesus/God in the form of man, did on the Cross and that he rose in three days that is how I got saved it does not give me the license to sin it gives me the freedom to love the Lord with all my heart, mind and soul and to love my neighbors as myself. I will never be without sin because of my human nature, for anyone who says they are without sin is only fooling themselves but my sin is what Christ went to the Cross as a payment for, past, present and future that is what makes it so amazing.

  189. oneg2dblu says:

    poohpity… yes we must agree to disagree.
    you probably do agree with this…
    Faith comes by hearing, Salvation comes
    only through believing,and calling upon Christ!
    For who can call upon that which he has not heard
    and does not believe?
    Everyone who calls upon the Lord will be Saved!
    I called,and He answered,and so did you…
    but we first believed, or we would not have called!
    God planted that belief in us and then called us to Himself.We Repented,and were Saved!
    I do not believe there is Salvation for those who refuse to Repent! GWW

  190. poohpity says:

    I was saved when I was young and went through 21 years of substance abuse and Jesus was there when I came asking for His help with open arms and helped me to change. It was nothing I did on my own I turned to Him and He did it ALL for me I just stay close to Him and allow Him to make all the changes so I will not boast in anything but His life changing Spirit. To Him be the Glory.

  191. oneg2dblu says:

    poohpity… so, after your youthful Salvation Experience,you also experienced much helplessness against that which kept you “addicted and powerless to control” and separated you from the Lord. That is a testimony in itself!
    What a horrendous struggle you have encountered and with the Lord’s Help,victoriously overcame.
    Through all that separation, you still found your Faith valid, for you could call upon the Lord for help!
    Your Salvation intact, your addiction conquered, and your Faith Tested and Endured! A Win/Win for Christ and His Power!
    So, now I see why you would concur, “Once Saved, Always Saved,” as your belief system. Praise God!

    My experience was different of course, and I spent 47 years of my life,living in any sin I wanted and worldly as any man, before I became Saved!
    But, when I was broken beyond my control, I called upon the Lord as well! I heard my own childhood voice within me, singing… Jesus loves me this I know…
    Hugely difference story, same result.
    Victory, through Faith in Christ!
    1 John 4:4
    “You dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world!”
    So, being an overcomer, is part of our “Born Again” DNA.
    In overcoming the world our Saviour’s Salvation is
    brought to fruition.
    The world is powerless to overcome itself, but the Child of the Most High, has within them a deposit
    of the Overcomer’s Spirit! It Is Written, It is
    Finished! Grace has been granted, and those who are chosen to receive it, are HIS VALUED POSSESSION!
    Be Blessed!

  192. poohpity says:

    Yes GWW, it is by faith that we are saved nothing we can do or not do can accomplish salvation, only by faith.

  193. oneg2dblu says:

    The great “unanswered question” is… Why would God place in His Word, so many verses on Falling Away?
    We all know that there are “two sides” to every story
    and one side, we will choose to believe for ourselves.
    I may have an answer that may satisfy both!
    I think what it is actually saying is:
    “ONLY GOD,” can change that faith which you,
    and choose to believe for yourself!
    Meaning…No Other Man, makes your decissions for you!
    So, No Man, can snatch you out of His Hand, which now holds you, through THE FAITH YOU NOW POSSESS!
    If, your faith which you NOW POSSESS, fails you,
    havn’t you through your own failing, Fallen Away?
    No matter what you choose to think, Almghty God, has choosen to put those verses in His Word for a reason!
    I choose to believe, His Reasons are far beyond our understanding, and we had better not live, as though,
    those verses, will have no effect on us!
    Peter, chose to take the “other side” of your once saved always saved position. The question is, WHY?
    Be blessed! GWW

  194. poohpity says:

    I have no unanswered questions about my salvation and I know I can never loose it because it was a gift to me.

  195. oneg2dblu says:

    Pooh… by you last statement, “nothing we can do or NOT DO can accomplish salvation, only by faith.”
    Isn’t the very First Act of Faith, “always shown,” in OUR REPENTING?
    I thought that it was through “the doing” of an Act of Repentance, that you have are found to have exercised your faith, and been granted SAVALTION.
    I firmly believe that, “Faith that is not tested, cannot be trusted!” That is why Repentance MUST be done first,as a true test of your heart’s condition!
    Your resting in this “not doing” is a problem for anyone
    who is challenged by the Word of God, to make a change, by “actively turning away” from their sin. (As God in His Word has Commanded us to do!)
    For the only way to achieve true repentance, is to turn away, unless you know of another way, I assume you will at least agree with that “starting point” to Salvation!
    I would like to hear your answer to that premise.
    For Passive Salvation to me, is worthless to those who “know” that Obedience to God’s Word is very much required!
    This security so many have in this Once Saved Always Saved position, is over-whelming to those of us, who Christ has required, through a call to action, Saying “Follow ME!”
    While the once saved always saved, stay “firmly rested” in their position of “no action required,” the rest of us, SEE this “command” as a real opportunity for our needed change, while you feel soo protected in not changing, is beyond comprehension.
    The words says, While we “WERE” still sinners. I see a form of a promise in the “were” word, while your premise, supports a, “You can’t ever change a sinner, attitude!”
    That is just poor theology, and really serves no one.
    That very inoperatrive motive you relish to use, scares me into thinking, that those “who refuse to change,” claim this type of salvation, for nothing in them really changes!
    My Pastor says, “When nothing changes,nothing changes!”
    This is a form of Motionless Theology, could it be from God, this no need to CHANGE direction?
    Believe me, I’ve seen all your verses, and they do not for me, change anything, but instead provoke and cause
    some more indifference, and maybe that is their hidden intented purpose!
    For this issue never seems to be settled…
    I pray you DO NOT SEE ANY OFFENSE in my words, but find that “Follow Me” is not an offensive command, but it is one, that WILL ALWAYS SAVE YOU FROM ETERNAL DESTRUCTION! My Prayer is, “Be Blessed, BE Obedient, and Be Changed!”
    I’ll take the hit on this one, as I know it is coming with full force, I’ll turn the cheek,
    I’ll remain open and conversive, for I feel you will never relent your guarded opposition and accept change!
    Am I wrong in my trusting Obedience, over disobedience, and missing the point of this once saved salvation, that says, it doesn’t matter?
    In reality our discussion really doesn’t change anything
    either, unless one of us changes their direction, and Repents, for not being in right relationship with the word! Could both positions be correct, and we are only wasting words? I’ll ask God again, but He keeps telling me, you just Be Obedient, and I’ll test their faith!

  196. bubbles says:

    Consider that you have a misunderstanding of what “falling away” actually means in the Scriptures.

  197. oneg2dblu says:

    bubles… thank you for your reply.
    When I consider, I consider as a blemished human,
    just like you, and unless God is in the considering, I will only fail again! So, this is useless, for us!
    We both understand “perfectly well” what our fallen condtion was when we WERE saved! As we each used our own words to Repent!
    But today, we each choose God’s Words, and there are many verses for “each side” of this clearly unsettled salvation issue. But of course WE being only human, cannot agree! We can only agree to disagree!
    That in its self, “IS” a Fallen Position,
    for Our God would certainly take a higher way,
    showing us we are both wrong, and Saved as well!
    Be blessed!

  198. oneg2dblu says:

    bubbles… please know this, my comment as well as yours, are given In His Love. Now, I totally understand why my Pastor “will not argue” this issue, for it is meaningless to Our God-given Salvation.
    A perfect gift is always “not to” put the recipient in a position of want! God has “perfectly gifted” us both!

  199. oneg2dblu says:

    Thanks bubles, for your reply! My considering, like yours, will always be a human considering, born to fail without God!
    So, I’ll pray that In His Mercy, HE will consider me as only human, having a blemish which I cannot wash away.
    Perhaps, he has given me what I need, HIS Interpertation, designed for me, and not yours designed for you! For “this issue” seems to never be properly settled amoung us, and that can’t be His design could it? GWW

  200. foreverblessed says:

    My Utmost for His Highest of December 29,
    the title is: Deserter of Disciple?
    here part of the devotion:

    When God, by His Spirit through His Word, gives you a clear vision of His will, you must “walk in the light” of that vision (1 John 1:7). Even though your mind and soul may be thrilled by it, if you don’t “walk in the light” of it you will sink to a level of bondage never envisioned by our Lord. Mentally disobeying the “heavenly vision” (Acts 26:19) will make you a slave to ideas and views that are completely foreign to Jesus Christ. Don’t look at someone else and say, “Well, if he can have those views and prosper, why can’t I?” You have to “walk in the light” of the vision that has been given to you. Don’t compare yourself with others or judge them— that is between God and them. When you find that one of your favorite and strongly held views clashes with the “heavenly vision,” do not begin to debate it.
    by Oswald Chambers

  201. oneg2dblu says:

    foreverblessed… thank you. That makes me believe you will be forever blessed!
    Oswald as well!

  202. druvaughn says:

    I have had a heavy heart reading this column so I asked God to give me a verse.
    This is what he gave me:

    John 5:24 Verily, verily I say unto you, He that heareth
    my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath
    everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but is passed from death unto life.

    Thank-you Jesus!!!!!

  203. nezzar says:

    I am undecided on the topic of “Once saved always saved” vs. “You can walk away from your salvation”. But I do know that many times when life is tough or another christian betrays someone that person can often react in anger toward God. If someone turns to satanism and witchcraft out of anger I believe that there is still hope. At some point they may forgive God (even though He did nothing wrong they still need to let go of the anger and bitterness that they harbor toward Him) and return to the faith. Many have fallen away and come back with more joy and steadfastness then before; myself included. We also have to remember that God will not violate his free choice. He offers His love to all and gives generously to all who accept it, but he will not ram it down anyone’s throught. Pray for him and be available for God to use to reach him, but don’t try to force the issue.

  204. henrytan says:

    Before further discussion on this topic. We must ask.. whether we are saved or not. We can not say we lost our salvation if we really have not got yet. Many Christians feel he was saved, but in fact he has not received salvation. Matthew 13 – tells of the seeds sown in several kinds of soil, which soil represents the true salvation ?. John 10:28-29, is Jesus’ promise to those who already have salvation. There are “Christians” who are not saved, but they “knew” that they are saved.

  205. wendyhunter says:

    I usually tell folks that its just best not to test the system; the wonderful, amazing, cosmic system of faith that we have been given in Jesus Christ.

  206. oneg2dblu says:

    wendyhunter… leaving well enough alone is a wise thing
    as there is only one time that God has said, “Test me on this,” and He wasn’t talking about Salvation, He was speaking about tithing and blessings beyond our ability to store them. It is wise not to constantly come against God with our testing of sin, testing the One who can keep our Souls for Eternity, either in Heaven or Hell! Gary

  207. johnthecook says:

    It would be hard to loose something you never had in the first place. With that thought in mind,only you will truly know if and when salvation took place. For me it was in Naples,ITALY July of 1977. I was in a big hole in the mountains in a place called PROTO. The devil would love for people to get lost in an argument that can’t be proven one way or another untill the rapture. So untill that happens I will trust in the Lord.

  208. oneg2dblu says:

    johnthecook… I was there in Naples ten years before you, and I only wish I had found then, what you claim to have found in those mountains. So, if only you knows, the when and where you have taken possesion of this thing, that no one else other than yourself can see, think, feel, or really know…then only you can know if you still have it or not.
    No one would dare srgue that point with you!
    After all,You are the one who holds this posseion as long as you desire, and claim to do so.
    If you say You have what you choose to possess,then can you also choose to lose what you now possess?
    This is just a question, about the possesion of things
    we now own, or is this thing really not ever yours to do what you choose to do with?
    Some here would say, if you ever claim to have lost it, then, you never owned it to begin with.
    They of course are not arguing, not even judging, only stating that they know what is, or is not yours., no matter what you choose to believe!
    Just a thought, about what you believe, and what you choose to believe regardless of what otherrs have to ssy sbout it, it becomes yours only if you possess it their wsy. I call, that call, a doctrinal disaster!

  209. poohpity says:

    Still Gary, one is saved by believing in the Lord Jesus. One either believes or they do not, it is that simple. There is only one way to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ hence salvation we do nothing to earn it. Your argument is that we have to do something to keep it. How did the thief next to Jesus on the Cross earn or keep his salvation? Only by believing in Jesus was he saved. You might then argue but he only lived that day. To that I would say continue Gary in all your acts of righteousness and see how that will work for you when you stand before the throne giving an account of your life and see if the things you do for God balance out the sins you do everyday then see how you measure up. Only Jesus Christ measures up to the standards God has set before us. It is His blood that covers us nothing we can do or we tend to boost about how good we are and that is pride, ooops another sin.

  210. poohpity says:

    But Gary, because we believe as we do it results in actions that demonstrates we are filled with the Holy Spirit and prompts us to do good works. However those works do not earn our salvation but they do show whether we are saved or not.

  211. oneg2dblu says:

    Thanks Pooh! I believe that the thief on the cross who recognized Christ,as “the” Christ. That he only knew this by the prompting of the Holy Spirit, and not book knowledge or some churches docrtrinal teachings, but by God himself through His Spirit. So, the thief did an actual work, if you will, and “asked Christ” to not forget him. So, we can not extrapulate what his condition would be, if he had not done so. But, we can clearly see what happened when he did ask! We are not told anything else about him, nor do we need to know, if he was saved prior, baptized prior, or what he believed prior, but that he “actively believed” at that moment of his asking Christ.
    The other thief was actively non-believing and we are not told his past beliefs, or his demise either.
    Personally, it does not matter what you choose to believe, if you believe that God has done a work in you, then He will bring it to the conclusion that He sees fit!
    I believe we need to be involved in that process, actively asking, seeking, and knocking or we will miss out on His Perfected Plan for our lives.
    It would be a tragedy to continue to walk in sin just as you were found at your moment of salvation, for to me, your repentance, according to its own definition, had never really taken place.
    No repentance, to me, means no salvation. That is my chosen belief, which I got directly from the Word of God. You know the bearing of good fruit thing, or the good works you spoke of.
    There is no arguement in me that would change that position, and I see no pride involved! Gary

  212. poohpity says:

    Gary, that is the problem it is very important what people believe and whether we as Christians are teaching things that may not be the truth thus leading others down a wrong path. We need to very careful and if it is only our opinion or the opinion of another that is not biblically based we need to say this is only my opinion and how I believe.

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