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Whats and Whys

Imagine a different scenario for our first parents: What if Adam and Eve had come away from the temptation angry with God for withholding the knowledge of good and evil from them, but with none of the forbidden fruit’s after taste in their mouth?

Imagine instead that, after talking to the Devil, they even agreed to obey the don’t-eat-from-this-tree-rule to give themselves more time to figure out how they could move out of the Garden and live on their own.

Would anger and a desire to move out on their own have been less fatal than eating the fruit? For the sake of discussion, I’ll take a guess. I’m thinking that doubting God and even being angry with Him to the point of not wanting to be around Him would not have been fatal. Even if they had tried to avoid God—without eating the fruit– God could have found them and talked them through their anger and doubts.

Later, the Lord confronted the anger of Cain, their oldest son, before he killed his younger brother. In that instance, God asked Cain why he was so angry and suggested that what he did with his anger would determine the outcome (Gen 4:5-7). Once again the Lord emphasized the importance of what Cain did or did not do while wanting Cain to look at why he was so angry. To everyone’s loss, Cain didn’t accept the Lord’s counsel and expressed his anger toward God by killing Abel (Gen 4:1-4).

What is the common factor? In both cases, parents and son apparently doubted whether they could trust their Creator enough to gratefully enjoy what he had given them– without distrusting him because of what he had withheld.

God had withheld from Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil. He had withheld from Cain approval of a sacrifice that he had made from his profession as a “cultivator of the ground.” (By contrast, the Lord approved of the animal sacrifice his brother had made, as a “keeper of flocks”).

What both parents and son did and didn’t do was important. Eating forbidden fruit might not seem that terrible to us. But Cain’s murder of his younger brother shows us the real nature and costs of what his parents had done. Even though he would bear responsibility for his own actions, he was born to fallen parents, which meant that he would have to struggle with a lack of innocence and fallen inclinations.

So what are we supposed to see in these early events? On a scale of 1 to 10, how important were the actions (the whats) of eating the fruit, and the killing of Abel? And on a scale of 1 to 10 how important were the heart issues (the whys) that preceded both wrongs?

Going back to where we started, where should our focus be? Was God mainly concerned about “not eating forbidden fruit”? How do the “whats” of our lives compare with the “whys” in God’s eyes?

PS Seems that the reason to think about this together is not just to figure out moral answers but rather to deepen our understanding of where we need to focus in our desire and prayers for God’s help…

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54 Responses to “Whats and Whys”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    As a believer in the creation story, I have always read and understood that the world we live in, the nature around us is all a result of the original sin.

    Before the flood of Noah, the world was a very different place.

    Before the fall of man, was Adam all that different from us?

    His relationship to God was somewhat different in that there was only one law….violating that law opened up to Adam the understanding of the need for many other laws.

    Disobediance to God being the basis of all sin. But why disobey??? Self..the inner thoughts of ones self, the doorway to disobediance.

    If we give up self, we can find no problem falling under the authority of God’s will.

    Anyone who will admit it has challanged the authority and instruction of their parents.

    Any parent knows the frustration of trying to keep their children from making mistakes they know will cause them difficulties and harm. Only to have their children rebel; The only action the parent can do is sit back and watch the fall…Ready then to pick up the pieces and come to the aid of their child.

    Anyone who has had a brother or sister, also understands that there is a distance between them. Too often one of them siblings will resent the other.

    Cain resented Abel, we are not told about their childhood or any other interaction between Adam, Eve and the two boys. Was one favored over the other, did one get more attention?

    Was the rejection of Cain’s offering just the last straw, that Cain seen as himself being rejected?

    Most of us know the pain of rejection. As well as the anger that follows.

    I have heard many sermons and teachings based on the story of Cain and Abel. Seems there is a great many thoughts the story can produce.

    Will God ever take away our inner desire to serve our own self intrests? I don’t know, maybe He wants us to willingly give up self for Him, and by doing so become a giver and helper to all others instead of a taker from all around us.


  2. SFDBWV says:

    Wanted to clarify that I see disobediance as an act of sin and self as the motive…


  3. SFDBWV says:

    In trying to obtain a closer relationship with God, my prayers are to diminish self so that Christ can increase in me and all I do.

    Temptations will always come, but God always provides an escape from it, if we are obedient and *want* to escape.


  4. ttl7praz says:

    Good morning everyone! I don’t know about the rest of you but I can remember going through a period of time in my Christian walk when I used to think why did Adam and Eve choose the path they did and why am I being punished for what they did and why was I destined to be a sinner right from the time of womb exit. After all, I didn’t ask for any of this! Sound familiar? Thankfully, over time and growth in my relationship with Jesus, I have come to realize that it is what it is and that God has offered us a solution to this sin problem. I have also come to realize that all and I do me ALL of us represent modern day Adams and Eves (and some of us,unfortunately, have even stooped to the level of Caines)in that no matter how hard someone may try to justify that they should have known better and if that were one of us we would not have fallen for such a well executed plan of deceipt, it is simply not so. Proof in hand? We have all the instructions and stories about persons who came before us long ago and the mistakes they made and the consequences of their actions all written out in plain english in the Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth and we still mess up! Point in hand…from the beginning of time until the present day and on into future until Jesus returns to take us away from all the mess, just like Jorge says, we are to rely/depend on God always. ‘Nuff said…

  5. InHisHands says:

    In looking at your message this morning the question of whether Adam and Eve would have still been ‘disobedient’ if in anger they left the garden, w/o tasting the forbidden fruit – I am reminded of the parable about the brothers – one was told to do, and angrily refused, however, went out and did, – the other was told to do and agreed pleasantly then went on his way and did not do as asked. Jesus asked which one was obedient?

    Only one command to obey – That ‘free will’ to choose to obey, wow – what a gift – yet, how often it can become a curse. Jer. 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked: who can know it?” God knows us so thoroughly Psa. 139, and is gracious to allow to know ourselves that we might choose to turn to the Way in which He leads us.

    Cain represents (to me) the many ways that mankind tries to ‘build’ a new path to get back to God. Religion is ‘man seeking God’ while Christianity is ‘God seeking man’. He sought us and He bought us, yet we think we can find a better way to find favor.

    I guess that is all I have for now, but am still mulling this over.


  6. poohpity says:

    I believe that the whys(heart) were a 10 which in turn effected the whats which were also a 10. The first thing was the heart of the matter then that effected the behaviors. It seems at this time when given the beauty of all the animals, birds, fish, each other, walking with God and the plant life. With the command to care for what they had been given and to populate the earth they had so much to enjoy and do. I wonder if they even noticed the tree until the serpent called attention to it. Put that ONE thought in their mind and they had the choice to act on it and not trust all that God had given and be grateful for what they did have. Instead they wanted what they did not have so much they were willing to go to any length to get it.

    It reminds me with how I am. I look at all the things I can not do when it would honor God to look at the things I can do. I find that I also grumble and complain about all the wrong I see when each day God provides something good for me to do. The gifts I have been given do not need legs to do but I continually look at the leg issue the one thing I can not do. Gee Paul said it so aptly in Romans 7.

    Can you imagine what a difference we could make if we weren’t involved with politics, ungratefulness, judgment, criticism and pride. If we just did what God said for us “to do” and not the “do not do’s”.

  7. pegramsdell says:

    But I do what I hate to do and know is wrong, and what I know is right I don’t do. What a wretched man I am, who will rescue me?

  8. saled says:

    My guess is that Adam and Eve would not have been capable of anger and a desire to move out on their own without possessing the knowledge of good and evil. Cain’s anger seems to have come from his decision that God was wrong to accept his brother’s sacrifice and reject his own. When I see someone who is angry, usually they are angry over a perceived injustice. For example, the boy who throws things in our after-school homework session because he doesn’t want to be there. He has made the decision that it is not good to be there, but he is powerless to change it. He doesn’t understand that he is there because the adults in his life care about his future.

  9. SFDBWV says:

    I find it interesting that God did withold the knowledge of good and evil from Adam and Eve.

    It would make them almost like a pet.

    It was just perfect as long as they were not fully aware of the moral questions. They didn’t have to steal anything as everything was provided for them. They couldn’t feel jelousy because it was just God and they.

    Yet they were not even aware that there was a difference between right and wrong.

    Yet there in the Garden God had placed a tree whoes fruit would make them aware….or was it that once they disobeyed God’s one command, they were made aware? Not so much the fruit itself but the act of disobeying God?

    They must have immediately felt guilt, a horrible feeling. Something they had never felt before.

    The punishment, death. Now is when the story takes a large step. As long as they were unaware of good and evil, they knew nothing of death.

    But now they knew that their bodies whould grow old and die. The added unpleast feeling of regret was added to guilt.

    Up until the act of disobedience, they apparently didn’t even know about reproduction, because it wasn’t until then that Eve was told she would suffer the pain of childbirth, yet still want the sexual affection of her husband. Now we have confused feelings as well as regret and guilt.

    Then they are banished from the garden and the easy life they once enjoyed was turned to a difficult pain filled life of existing. Do you suppose they felt their punishment to severe? Perhaps even getting angry at God?

    Then for all of the brokenhearted people we know who have lost children to death. We have the very first recorded death in history being the death of someones child.

    Anger, resentment, confusion, regret, guilt…All because we were made aware, Of the difference between good and evil.

    Though people suffer all over this world for many reasons. Some of their own doing many because of the doings of others. Some for what seems no fault of anyone.

    However God has made a way for all of us to be rescued, from guilt and regret and the punishment sin brings with it….A scape goat….but not just any…He has given Himself as a sacrifice for all of us. Jesus of Nazareth.

    Since we are now aware of right and wrong. We need only make the right choice, and accept Christ as our Lord and Savior.

    The choice? Eternal life or eternal death.


  10. simpleman says:

    All I can relate from my personal experience is that disobedience to God’s word and the teachings of the Son lead to sin. Like Adam and Eve, I have been tempted by and have succumed to forbiden fruit. Like Cain, I have allowed disappointment in life make me angry at God. Yet despite myself God has been there in those times when I am broken and humbled. He has heard my cries and lifted me back upon my feet and like the prodigal son, I have strayed yet again. But God continues to be there in the truest form of love ever witnessed HE took sin upon HIS Son and sacrificed him at Calvary so that I might be saved despite myself. Praise be to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

  11. phpatato says:

    Mom was taken to hospital yesterday. Her hemaglobin was 69 – she received 3 units of blood – and she suffered a heart attack. She drifted in and out of consciousness and was confused and agitated during the night. There must be an internal bleed but any testing is simply out of the question.

    She is ready to meet her Lord Jesus. Your prayers are appreciated. Thank you


  12. poohpity says:

    Pat, I will be in prayer. My heart is with you during this time, love Deborah

  13. SFDBWV says:

    Prayers for you and your mom. I too will be thinking of you today.


  14. Regina says:

    Good Morning All,

    I hope all is well in your lives.


    This is a very thought-provoking topic. I want to give my opinion on the first three questions now, and I’ll comment on the second set later:

    “So what are we supposed to see in these early events? On a scale of 1 to 10, how important were the actions (the whats) of eating the fruit, and the killing of Abel? And on a scale of 1 to 10 how important were the heart issues (the whys) that preceded both wrongs?”

    On a scale of 1-10, the importance of the actions of Adam/Eve eating the fruit and Cain killing his brother were both 10’s. I believe that Adam & Eve could have made a more rational decision if they had talked it over (weighed the pros & cons of their decision) before making such a permanent decision to disobey God.

    Eve had already eaten the fruit when she brought it to Adam, but who knows what the outcome would have been if Adam had refused to eat it (I believe there would have been a better outcome).

    As I reflected on Adam, Eve & Cain’s actions, I was reminded of the numerous times that we’ve all had to make a decision to either give in to temptation or resist it. When we desire something that we know is carnal, the devil puts thoughts in our mind on how we can get it. Though we may lust for it in our heart, we know (spiritual revelation) that if we give in to our desire(s), it will give the devil an opportunity to make us a slave to sin.

    When Adam, Eve & Cain gave in to their carnal (sinful) desire(s), it not only gave the devil an opportunity to make them slaves to sin, but they inherited physical and spiritual death as well. I believe that it would have been far better for them and us if they had resisted the temptation to indulge in their lusts (James 4:7).


  15. poohpity says:

    Mart, you asked, “Going back to where we started, where should our focus be? Was God mainly concerned about “not eating forbidden fruit”? How do the “whats” of our lives compare with the “whys” in God’s eyes? I believe this fits in with the last topic where you stated, “All of us would probably readily affirm that, when God is all we have, we discover that He is all we need”. It would seem that Adam and Eve had all that they could possibly need but their wants superseded contentment. They desired more just like when Cain was challenged to give a better offering he was withholding his best from the lord to keep for himself.

    So it would seem that it is more in the heart of the matter the “whys” of our motives. In today’s reading in Luke 16:15 Jesus said, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God’s sight”. It would seem that God is more concerned with the heart actions because they are the “whys” that affect the “whats”. Like the previous question “Is God all we need” if that is why the answer is yes then it will affect what we do.

    Like Adam, Eve and Cain their focus went from God being all they needed to themselves (self service).

  16. InHisHands says:

    I, too, will be praying for you and your mom – and all that you will be in contact with; that the LORD will keep you and be seen in your life during this time. Praise God she is His child.

  17. pegramsdell says:

    Thank You Lord for Pat and her mom. Bless them with healing and comfort and peace. And please be with the doctors and nurses and staff, on their behalf. You are our great healer and savior, may Your Name be glorified forever. We love you Jesus!

  18. christianne says:

    Mart writes ‘What both parents and son did and didn’t do was important. Eating forbidden fruit might not seem that terrible to us. But Cain’s murder of his younger brother shows us the real nature and costs of what his parents had done. Even though he would bear responsibility for his own actions, he was born to fallen parents, which meant that he would have to struggle with a lack of innocence and fallen inclinations.’

    My immediate thought: Deuteronomy 5:9-10 (New International Version)You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. (Also Exodus 20:5-6, and 37:7)

    Just as one can choose to ‘sit on the fence’ where the commitment to Jesus is concerned, the same fence-sitting applies to the commitment to love and obey God. Fence-sitting implies that we are not entirely with God in what He is seeking from us, neither in our obedience nor regarding our salvation.

    I like what Charles Stanley says about his grandfather…from this wise old man, Dr. Stanley learned one of life’s most valuable principles: OBEY GOD and LEAVE ALL THE CONSEQUENCES TO HIM. In my nineteen-year-walk with the LORD, I have been brought to complete submission, complete obedience, and complete repentance. I truly love the LORD GOD in all his triune glory.

    To Jorge: You and I seem to share a practical way of expressing ourselves…I am more comfortable at the base of the mountain to the rarefied atmosphere of the heights in terms of theological dissertation…but then I prefer the writings of George MacDonald to those of C.S. Lewis

    To those who left their thoughts with me following my comments about needing/wanting/trusting God, I thank you.

    To phpatato: Psalm 139 represents the epitome of comfort and assurance to me; vs 16: ‘All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.’ These words from the Master Himself have accompanied me through the valley many times and have sustained my belief that He is worthy of my trust. I pray they will be your comfort at this time.

    Amen and Amen

  19. SFDBWV says:

    Regina, I want to share with you a comment I heard some time back when looking at the events in the Garden.

    It was only conjecture, and not meant to be anything else.

    The commentor put forward the possible suggestion that after Eve had eaten the forbiden fruit, that Adam may have thought she would face eternal seperation from God…alone.

    That he loved her enough to not leave her in that state and so joined her in her punishment, so she would not bear it alone.

    It is a nice thought, and I would never want anyone to think this scriptual…Just a thought, on the power of love.


  20. SFDBWV says:

    I said the idea was not scriptual, but it can be a picture story of a future man who takes sin on Himself for His bride.

    As well as a picture story of what Paul taught when He said that a husband should be willing to die for his wife.

    Just more stuff to think about…


  21. poohpity says:

    Jesus is the only one who would die for me and why, sometimes that is hard to figure out.

  22. Regina says:

    Pat – …did not forget your prayer request. I pray that if it’s your mom’s time to go home (heaven), she will have a peaceful journey (2 Cor. 5:1). I’m so glad that she’s ready to meet the Lord Jesus. It’s such a blessing to know that she won’t be sick in heaven. Be encouraged (Rev. 21:4).

    Steve – That’s a beautiful thought/comment about Adam’s love for Eve. However, she might have also been cleansed of her sin (iniquity) due to the fact that Adam, her husband, was also her covering. Your thought/comment reminds me of Abraham’s question to God regarding sparing the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah if there were 50, 45, 40, 30, 20 or 10 righteous people there.

    God was willing to spare a whole (sinful) city to save 10 righteous people. I believe that one righteous husband would have been enough to cover the sins of one unrighteous wife. …just a thought.


  23. Regina says:

    Oh, …forgot to add the scripture reference on Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 18:20-33).


  24. marma says:

    Poohpity: That is a good question; God’s love for us is so incomprehensible. As someone wrote, “it is high, I cannot attain to it” I think talking about the wisdom of God. For me, that applies to a lot of things about God. All the same, I’m glad Jesus loves me and I still have a lot to learn about that love.

    You summed it up well; the why is about our motives–self sufficiency versus God’s sufficiency. A continual theme in my learning experience as a Christian is that when I call the shots, my life is out of balance. God knows His creation, what is best for each of us. There is an anti-logic in trying to get along without our creator, which is I think at the heart of Adam and Eve and Cain’s disobedience.

  25. saled says:

    Mart’s imaginary situation with Adam and Eve not eating the fruit, but deciding to bide their time until they could move out on their own sounds like teenage behavior. I wonder what Adam and Eve would have become if they had not eaten the fruit. Would they have stayed as they were, with God alone knowing the difference between good and evil?

    I guess I always believed that the motives of the heart were most important, but maybe not. Actions are the final result of what is in the heart. Does God judge us on what is in the heart, or on our actions?

  26. poohpity says:

    I think he judges the heart as He did with King David when the heart is right the actions follow.

    If Adam had loved Eve so much what prevented him from guiding her to not eat the fruit that would have been the more loving thing to do. It would have shown love for God and for Eve.

  27. poohpity says:

    Romans 3:20 20 For no one can ever be made right with God by DOING what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.

  28. SFDBWV says:

    Saled, I also believe that matters of the heart or inner person are what matter the most.

    Christ said what is in the heart comes out of the mouth, it is also what comes through the action of ones hands.

    In Cains case anger and resentment turned into a murderous rage that caused him to lift up the rock and strike his brother.

    I don’t think Cain fully understood that his action would kill Abel. He only gave in to blind rage, it led to murder. As often happens today.

    However the story takes a huge leap forward, following God’s punishment given to Cain….Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden….interesting that God placed Cherubims at the east of Eden to guard the tree of life.

    Cains first born son Enoch built a city. Cain’s decendants went on to invent tents and cattle keeping, building musical instruments, the harp the organ, even building foundries to produce brass and iron.

    It would appear that people were a great deal smarter than our sciences would have us believe of our early ancesters.

    In Genesis 6:5 we hear God say “that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his *heart* was only evil continualy.”

    So from the heart, to the mind to the mouth and on to the hands…It starts with the heart.


  29. poohpity says:

    Romans 3:22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

  30. refump says:

    Andrew Farely,in his book “the naked gospel” states, “Adam & Eve did not eat of the ‘tree of evil’. They ate from the ‘tree of the knowledge of good & evil’. Herein we see an important distinction. They weren’t pursuing sin as we normally think of it. There were puruing a form of godliness. They made an attempt to be like God. The serpent successfully lured them, and the bait was godlikeness. Even today this seems like a worthy goal. But God never intended for humanity to take upon itself the burden of developing & following a code of ethics. The fall in the garden was due to Satan’s cunning as he tempted the first humans to abandon God & choose human effort. Adam & Eve reconsidered their confidence in God’s way & opted for morality instead. But what was their motive really? Although they were openly disobedient, we might say it was for the ‘right’reason. They wanted to be ‘right’ & do ‘right’. They wanted to know right from wrong so they could choose right & avoid wrong. The original sin was not Adam & Eve’s thumbing their noses at the goodness of God. Instead, it was their wanting to author their own system of right & wrong. Today we can be decieved by the same offer. We may find ourselves pursuing the knowledge of good instead of listening to our heartfelt yearning for an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ.”

  31. pegramsdell says:

    Good thing it’s not left up to me, cause I would totally mess it up. I am happy with things the way they are. With God being God, not me. I like that just fine thank you very much…:)

    But…without trying to, I know I orchestrate things my way, and then ask God to fix it. Like “Our Daily Bread” today was saying He is in the rescuing business. We get ourselves in a mess by not listening to Him and then ask Him to bail us out. And He does. Sweet! Thank You Jesus for helping me. For saving me.

  32. Sakoieta says:

    Well, maybe regretfully, but here we go again. As Mohawks we are taught the Creator’s laws. These laws tell us that in all of our thinking and acting we are to consider the consequences of our actions on those human beings now living, those whose time is yet to come and all of the created order. We were given by our Creator several freedoms, that if we follow lead to positive outcomes in our life and future generations. We were given the ability of freely expressing our views, that of sharing our voice, since none of us ever have the same exact experience with life, with our Creator or with each other. In this way each new person we meet has an experience that will help to illuminate us a little bit more than before we met them. We were given freedom from want. This means that when we look after each other no one does without, all benefit and all share. We were given the freedom of choice. The ability to use our minds and powers of reasoning to make positive choices in our lives and within our relationships with the Creator and with each other. We were given freedom of belief. Each one of us experiences the Creator in our own way and through his revelations to us, in this way we do not condemn a persons choices for the manner in which they choose to worship or honor the Creator. The one freedom we were denied was the freedom to slay ourselves. This means that we are always to be accountable in exercising all of our other freedoms. We cannot escape the accountability to first of all the Creator, then to us, our family, clans, community, nation and the created order. These protocols are taught as the basis of how human beings are taught to live life here on this Earth, that the Creator has lovingly created for our use. I do not personally believe in the historical Adam as being an actual living being or Eve but I do believe there were people created that walked with the Creator and fellowshipped with him and that there was also this negative force and being that constantly tried to interfere with the Creator’s work and his relationships with human beings. I just came to share my thoughts. Not to argue or have anyone feel that I need to be missionized. I do not believe as most of you professing Christians and am glad that you have found a faith that works for you. I too have found such a faith and will not defend it here or anywhere as I do not need to. I have seen, as I stated way earlier, the evidence of Creator’s work in my life each and everyday. I do not need anyone to tell me I am misguided or wrong, because I do not believe that is your place and I do not, quite frankly believe that myself. I follow a path that allows me to fellowship each and everyday with the Creator. It is a path the heads me on and I follow obediantly. I hope this experience here will be more productive than last time. That is all I have to say at this time.I thank those who have allowed me to post again. Onen.

  33. poohpity says:

    I guess I get confused if you do not believe as most of us professing Christians do as you have stated, why do you like to talk with us? Does your creator believe in peace or turmoil?

  34. Bob in Cornwall England says:


    I have just had a quick look at your web link and see that you are very creative and also play the flute.
    I am so glad that you are intouch with the creator and can fellowship with Him everyday. I too knew Him long before He told me His name.
    Below is a part of todays reading from a British daily devotional book. “word for today”

    “Imagine you’re a child studying astronomy. You read about the first mission to the moon and you begin to ask your teacher all sorts of space travel questions. ‘What’s it like on the moon?’ The teacher replies, ‘Well, I would guess’ or ‘I think’ or ‘perhaps’. She’s never been there. But next day Astronaut Neil Armstrong enters your classroom. ‘Now ask your questions,’ the teacher says, and Armstrong answers each with certainty. He knows the moon; he’s walked on it. No speculation or hesitation – he speaks with conviction. So did Jesus: ‘…He taught them as one having authority…’ (Matthew 7:29 NKJV). Jesus knows the dimensions of heaven. He knows the words of the songs sung by the angelic choir. He has unrivalled knowledge of God – and He wants to share His knowledge with you: ‘…no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him'”

    Because He came from God and Is God, Jesus can reveal so much more to us about God than anyone else.
    All creations reveals God to us but only Jesus can take us to the (Father)heart of creation because He created it!
    Take care!


  35. Sakoieta says:

    This comment kind of answers it’s own questions.Poohpity states….”I guess I get confused if you do not believe as most of us professing Christians do as you have stated, why do you like to talk with us? Does your creator believe in peace or turmoil?”… Let me ask you Poohpity, say if you met someone and they told you they are not Christian, does that also mean they are not Godly. My difficulty with the church today is the same difficulty I have with a government that follows a constitution that says verbally and in writing that I have a right to practice and follow my beliefs. But when a person tries to do so they are often ostracized for being different in belief or practice and then often deemed unAmerican. I come here as no threat to you or anyone. But I also come to challenge the ethics by which Christians decide who is Godly and who is not, again what is written in scripture being very different than what is put in practice. I have said before I am not unfamiliar with Christianity or it’s teachings in fact I can probably recite scripture after scripture back to you from memory. This statement of yours reminds when Jesus was with his deciples and they told him there are others teaching about him, should they not as disciples go and tell them to stop? What was Jesus answer?
    I came on here, again as a little test to myself and also to do a bit of assessment on how you people have grown. By believing a little different than you I am just curious if your Christian belief can accept that and work with that or if like in this comment you feel I am a threat. Poohpity, I’ll let you in on a little secret. (I worship the same God you do, no different. But keep it a secret between me and you okay?) To answer your question, if I am going to work with people in spirit and truth I need to know what they believe. Doesn’t that make sense? Other wise I can open myself up to alot of false assumptions, guesses, incorrect beliefs about others and their beliefs.

    Here is the real reason, as an Indian man I believe the church and Christianity are our greatest nemesis and foes, but if the church and Christians actually get back to following the teachings of Jesus, I believe the church is also our greatest source of strength and hope as Native people of North America. You see I work with Indians who were put in residential schools and beaten by nuns, priests, ministers for even speaking their own Native tongue, so when they seek out a sense of spirituality everything you people say about the blood of Jesus, are actually things these people have heard from those religious leaders, while they were being whipped, sodomized, raped and forced to their knees to repent for being an Indian. I come here in a kind way to ask you to grow and quit being these robots who spew out all of this religious dogma and propaganda and get real. The only way the message of Christ is going to connect to the nations of the world is if it is a message of relevance that relates to what people go through each and every day. That is a message of good news. Sorry if I upset the apple cart by showing up here again, but that is life, get over it.

    Bob I am glad you posted what you did, because I have often thought the same thing. An astronaut can speak from experience about the moon because he has been there and seen it. It is the same when I share the teachings of God from our Native North American Indian people. I can share because I have been there I know these teachings I know what is Godly of our teachings and what is not. Sadly most Christians refuse to accept our teachings as having any validity in the story of God’s work with the world. They would rather believe the myths and fables they have been taught that allowed them to view us as savages until the 1950’s so they could steal our lands, resources, etc. and call it God driven manifest destiny. That is why many of us have no trouble with the beliefs of Christians and can talk with them quite well, but we still hold to our beliefs as well because we have also found God there also. I realize that I have given people here much to digest, but if our attitude was the same toward you as Poohpity’s was toward me, we would have never allowed you to settle here in North America, instead we did share even though the people coming here were different in every way. We still do. Something the church and Christians need to learn today.

  36. poohpity says:

    Sakoieta, I feel there is no understanding about how I truly feel about you. I have gone to your facebook page and read what you have had to say. I did not however come to you in a posture of contempt. It seems that we are accused of missionizing and yet it seems that is what the words you say seem to do. That is all I have ever tried to get you to see. The finger that is pointing at my behavior is on the same hand that three are pointing back at the pointer. I have not the ability to be a judge over your beliefs nor do I feel the need to challenge them that is not my job. Actually I have never challenged your beliefs what I have tried to point out is the heart in your presentation of those beliefs and with your academic background I thought you may understand that. The topic we were discussing was the Whats and Whys when you came in with a defense posture and accusations no discussion on the topic at hand. It really hasn’t ever been about what you believe from me it is how it is presented. I hope I have explained so that you can understand.

  37. Bob in Cornwall England says:


    I have to go to work shortly but just want to make a quick comment.
    I have always had great respect for the North American native culture, that is based on common values and a belief that everything comes from the great creator and therfore cannot be “owned” by one or two people but belongs to everyone.
    You see “God” in everything just as the bible says that creation itself is enough reason to beleive in and trust God.
    I often think that Jesus inspired your culture and am quite ashamed of that people from this country should have treated you and your ancestors so badly, then declare it to be in the name of freedom etc.
    Jesus called them Hypocrites, just like todays reading in “our daily Bread” when Paul told Peter in no uncertain terms to “Get Real” and stop acting as a Jew when with Jews etc.
    Thanks for your imput and may the God of your ancestors give you peace.


  38. Sakoieta says:

    First of all, I thank you Poohpity for the verbal spanking. Maybe I’ll stick to using sign talk from here on out. LOL. I do not come on here to try to proselytize you all into becoming Mohawks. We don’t do that. Poohpity, you really need to look at how aggressive you really are when you write and question. I would be more than happy just to talk with you.

    Here is the jist of it Folks. Almost every denomination has a portion of it’s work that is designated as Native ministries to Native North American people. But if you don’t know us or our experiences with the church how can you work with us in ways that are productive and healing. This is the basis of the whats and whys, so I do think I was addressing the topic, but Indian style.

    Bob has directed his comments in a direction I would like to pursue if I am allowed to. I beg all of your indulgence as I try to make a point, Indian style of course. Bob, what would happen if you and your family went for a holiday vacation in France and then in the process of sharing information of your holiday with folks back home all you did was write about what Hawaii is like, never having visited there, but still speaking about all the stories you have read about Hawaii and it’s history? Do you not think after a bit people would ask, but we thought you were in France, why are you constantly talking about Hawaii when you are in France? Shouldn’t you be telling us about what is there in France that you can actually see and experience in France? This is the same context we as Indian people have trouble with when Christian missionarioes come to our reservations. They all consistently talk about life in the Middle east, where Jesus lived and walked. They tell us the stories that are written there in the Bible but without them ever having been there to experience it. There is no connection to this continent in their stories…here is what I believe is the why. Almost all Christians believe there was no revelation of God or Christ here on this continent until they brought the Bible here back in the early days of the United States so any stories or teachings about how God has worked with our people before European contact are discounted as myths or fables, without giving God the respect that is due him that He was a God of everything and everyone. No one or no nation has been left without a witness to the Creator and his works. But when we come up against the missionaries and try to share the stories of how God has worked with our people we run into a spiritual blindness on the missionaries part because of their unwillingness to believe we just might have some excellent revelations of who God is and how he does work with people, especially our people. If they accepted our words it would change the driving force behind things that occur even to this day where many Americans and Canadians still use the belief system that God was not here with our people and so it allows them to still classify us as pagans who then can have our lands stolen, culture destroyed, etc. This is why in earlier posts I stated I believe the Bible contains the word of God just not the exhaustive word. There are stories of the nations of the world that need to be shared with the stories of the Bible to gain a fuller understanding of how God has worked with all peoples during the history of the world. But sadly when we share these thoughts and beliefs we are told we are wrong, if it isn’t in the Bible then it is not from God, etc.

    So in essence we listen to people who are in France telling us in Hawaii about what Hawaii is like when we have lived there all our lives and they have never been there. Yet they are seen as being accurate and we are seen as being wrong. It is because of this disconnection that we turn away from a message that has not been connected to what we have experienced here in Hawaii. We have in our cultures many messages and teachings about who God is and how we are to work with him. My reason for writing some messages using strong language has been to get the writers who write here to understand when I say I know Jesus and I know God personally, that I may be describing how God has revealed himself to me and my view of him is from his right side while to you others he has shown his left side, front side, or back. None of us have seen so much of him that we can dictate to others the right way or wrong way to experience him. Yet as Indians we have been told this very thing to where the governments even outlawed our ceremonies (or worship sessions) and made them illegal. Do you understand now a bit more why I write in the manner I do. It isn’t necessarily to point fingers and condemn as it is to identify a problem that has occurred and still occurs that messes up our ability to communicate. Poohpity and I are a good example of how somehow things have gone wrong in a relationship between two people. Because in my work and real life, I love to talk with people and to hear and listen to different viewpoints. I am sure if we met face to face by the end of our meeting we would be very much able to hug each other and send a blessing with each other as we parted. Those are my thoughts.

  39. poohpity says:

    Wow, now that was kind and beautiful Sakoieta.

    I know for myself I was aware of the damage done by the church to many people groups and that continues today. I have always believed by reading the scriptures that all peoples of the world have been given a revelation of God and when all the nations will one day unite with our common interest in the creator with a better understanding. When I was in college I wrote several papers on that issue and working here with the North American Native culture I have learn the beauty of it as I have mentioned before because I listened to the ways and customs without having the bible in the beginning yet spoke so completely to my heart about the things of God.

    I apologize if I seemed aggressive that was not my heart. Now this is a conversation. Sending a big hug your way. :-)

  40. Bob in Cornwall England says:


    I know this is not now a current topic and Mart will normaly give us grace to say things as they are.
    In my country we have many cultures, I am from a srong Saxon heritage and now live in a strong Celtic area. The Romans left their mark as did the Vikings and the Normans (from France) totaly upset it all 1000 years ago by centralising the country in London.
    Along with that we have four nations of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland that all have their own languages.
    God speaks to us all differently and I did not have time this morning to say what was on my mind.
    Culture plays a big part in how we persieve God and also how we “act out” our faith.
    The USA has become this “mono culture” of “Mc Donalds” uniforematy and has lost the essence of what the “Founding Fathers” intended (Freedom for all).
    This will send Deb into a spin, but is the truth.
    I understand, even though I can never be a native american, how you feel and thank God you love Him.


  41. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I totaly left out the recent additions to our culture of Asian Indians, Seek, Hindi, and Arab Muslim and the whole rainbow of cultures that exists in the European Union.
    Sometimes there is no common language between us, but we try to be tollerant of each others customs.


  42. poohpity says:

    You are so right about losing the essence of the founding fathers intentions. I also feel that the church has lost the essence of what Christ intended. Our faith is americanized which is not good. I think that is why it is so important to live the principles of our faith and to come together in love rather than picking on the things that separate but the things that we have in common.

    I know how imperfect I am and I hope people will look to the Lord and not to me because I will always let people down not intentionally. I screw up so much. I do love and respect other human beings in my imperfect way and try to look at the good in everyone.

    You guys really make it sound like I am an ogre because I am assertive and stand up for what I believe. :-(

  43. Bob in Cornwall England says:



    I really care about you.
    Like me you struggle on your own and also have disabilities to overcome that I can’t even imagine.
    My best friend sent me a card about 30 years ago with a monkey hanging from a tree, when you opened it, it said “keep hanging” and I have kept it all this time and when I go through tough self inward looking times I always thing of it and “Keep Hanging”

    Bob xxx

  44. poohpity says:

    Thank you Bob. Kisses and hugs back at you.

  45. Sakoieta says:

    Poohpity, you would make a good Mohawk woman, because in our culture our women are very assertive and stand up for what they believe. That is what helps keep the men in line. LOL. At this time I extend to you the same greeting I give our Elder women when I see them in person. Here I have to do sumbolically but I offer to you great hug and greeting with a kiss on the cheek. Welcome my friend, it is good to spend time with you here and may we share our words in such a way that they will be like the footsteps on a path in the beautiful forests creating a new path of friendship between you and I.

  46. poohpity says:

    Thank you Sakoieta, It has been an honor and look forward to the new path.

  47. Sakoieta says:

    I would like to suggest that we focus our discussions, any that we may have, on our Iroquoian Rabbit Dance. In this dance while the singers sing the song a woman chooses a man to be her dance partner and together they start to dance, two steps forward – one step back. Initially they will always trip over each other or accidently step on each other’s toes, but they realize it was not done on purpose and they can find humour and laughter in the manner in which they have accidently been out of step with their partner. Every new topic that Mart posts is going to be like the start of a new dance..all of us with our thoughts and beliefs about the manner in which God has revealed himself to us may cause us to be out of step with each other. If we can view our discussions like that and not take things too seriously since in internet communication, body language, voice tone, etc. things very important to accurate communication are missing, can we look at our posts as trying to get in step with each other and if we accidently step on each others toes, look at it as just that???

  48. poohpity says:

    Sounds like laughter to my heart and spirit. Looking forward to the enrichment of our lives by each other.

  49. poohpity says:

    Blessed be the peacemakers.

  50. Bob in Cornwall England says:


  51. bubbles says:

    It’s so good to see you here again. You have been in my thoughts over the past months. It is good to know you are here again.

  52. Sakoieta says:

    She:kon, (Greetings)
    I usually stop in once in awhile to see if there is anything new happening or any new discussions. Take care. Onen.

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