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Recovering or Revising the Bible?

What about the "Head"?

We’ve talked here in the past about the fact that, in our day, one of the most debated issues of the Bible is whether God has given men authority over women in the home and church.

We’ve sensed that, even though we have been able to discuss many difficult subjects with candor and grace, this one surfaced some occasional edginess and irritability.

Looking back, my guess is that some were uncomfortable with the suggestion that, if God has given men authority, it is a responsibility to serve rather than an entitlement to be served.

Since, in places other than this blog, some have characterized such thinking a re-writing of the Bible, I thought I’d ask you to join me once again in asking:

  1. Is it rewriting the Bible to define leadership the way Jesus does when he says that in his kingdom those who lead are as those who serve (Luke 22:24-27)?
  2. Is it rewriting the Bible to say that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church–specifically illustrated not by Christ sitting on his throne—but by Christ suffering and sacrificing for the good of the church (Eph 5:25)?
  3. Is it rewriting the Bible to say that, as the head of his wife, a husband is to nurture and care for her as he nurtures and cares for his own body (Eph 5:28-29)?
  4. Is it rewriting the Bible to say that in context the Bible is asking wives to lovingly submit to the good of husbands who, if they are followers of Christ, are assumed first to be “filled with the Spirit” (Eph 5:17-21). (Paul tells us what that looks like not only in Eph 5 but also in Gal 5:22-23?
  5. Is it rewriting the Bible to say that all followers of Christ (including husbands and wives) are to do unto one another as they would want done unto them (Matt 7:12) (especially when Jesus sums this up as the message of the law and the prophets)?
  6. Is it rewriting the Bible to point out that when the Apostle Paul directly mentions “authority” in marriage, he does so as a mutual responsibility in the representational intimacy of the marriage act (1Cor 7:4)?
  7. Is it rewriting the Bible’s meaning of “head” to point out that it is clearly more than a picture of authority when, (as in Eph 5:23-30)? Paul also uses the idea of “head” and “body” in a much broader way (Eph 4:15-16; Col 2:19).

Is this a revisionist approach to husband and wife relationships, as some fear? Don’t these texts actually reclaim and clarify the meaning of “head” from the damage that has been done to it by a surrounding runaway culture that tracks all the way back to our first parents fall into sin—and the curse that followed (Gen 3:15-16)?

Seems to me that when we interpret the Bible in its historical and grammatical context, it will clearly show that if the Bible does give men authority over women in the home and church—it is certainly not the kind of authority that has done so much damage to women and to the reputation of Christ—and to a high view of the Bible.

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90 Responses to “Recovering or Revising the Bible?”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    The coming of Jesus Christ and the empowerment of His Holy Spirit, fulfilled the writen word in such a way that only His understanding and explanation of all of its intent could be explained or understood clearly by wayward man.

    Jesus and His Spirit clearly teach that to be the head of anything you have to have the heart of a servant.

    Man as the head of his wife and family, as Christ is the head of the church, are to be looked at as accepting responsibility, acting upon that responsibility with the same love and sacrifice as Jesus taught and exemplified.

    The husbands roll as provider and protector of his wife and family is in no way meant to give special status to the man above his wife. Rather it clarifies his responsibility to his wife and family….especialy to the extent of giving up or forfiting his life for wife and family.

    A person does not have to give up living in order to give up his life for another.

    Yes, certainly steping in front of a bullet meant for another is sacrificing ones life.

    But there are other sacrifices that are an act of giving up ones life.

    A man who surrenders his personal wants or desires for another is also giving up something of his life for another.

    A person who dedicates himself for the care and provision of another is also giving up his life for that person.

    A man following after God’s design of a husband is a man who puts his wants last in the relationship between himself and his wife and family……leading by example.

    A man who does not lead his family, is in err of the example given by scripture. Rather he is shirking his responsibility and abdicating his roll as husband.

    A man who misuses the example of scripture as being above his wife and therefore given special status to bully, abuse, force, and even beat his wife, is worse than an infidel. He is a fool and has no true understanding of scripture or even the remotest teachings from Christ.

    Blind to his own insecurities, and living a lie, like the coward he is, he hides behind a false sense of authority and will find othes like himself to agree with in order to give credibility to his lie….But it is a lie.

    Remember how convenient it was to accept the lie in the garden?….We are presented with such lies all the days of our lives, our only defense being the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the fulness of Christ in us, to open our eyes and ears to the truth and be led away from the darkness of this world toward the light of the Truth.


  2. chfranke says:

    So what you’re saying, plain and simple, is the Bible does give men authority over women in the home and church (in a loving way). Forgive me for being so blunt but it sounds like you have a personal issue with this subject since you think we need to revisit it again.

  3. poohpity says:

    I believe the revisiting of the issue again is because the abuse is still continuing in the name of the bible. The wrong assumptions of what the scriptures mean to use by some as a means to control and over power women still exists in the name of Christ when in fact it is not at all what is intended when it undermines the entirety of all that Jesus was teaching. Again taking things out of context and using them as a weapon to oppress. People not only do that to women but also to unbelievers or those who do not fit into the cookie cutter mold of what a person thinks another person should be. When anyone disrespects another human being by feeling superior in anyway to another has really missed the boat in what Jesus taught and He taught us from the Old Testament. That was the bible He used but showed how many had taken it wrong and misapplied the true meaning by self righteousness, self ambition and superiority.

    Jesus’ example of laying down His deity to serve man kind not by force or control but by a very caring, compassionate, serving and humble means. God does not even force His will on anyone but gives them the choice. I would like to say it is just men who over power but in reality both genders do. I will never understand that when this issue is talked about we consider the act of love, gentleness, kindness, patience or any of the fruit of the Spirit as weakness when in reality it takes more strength and self control to be caring, compassionate, and humble. Anyone can be aggressive, domineering, controling and overpowering.

  4. foreverblessed says:

    wow Pooh, you said it all, what I wanted to say.
    THe last post was finishes by Bob saying that GOd is refining us until He sees His own image reflected in us.
    Does He see a reflection of Jesus in me? Caring, considerate. Jesus has all qualities, father and mother. It is hard to say that, but He created man and woman in His own image, so a bit of His being was put in man, and the other bit in woman. Nobody should look down on the other. We compliment each other. Mutually supporting one another.

  5. Mart De Haan says:

    Yes,Deb, so well expressed! Thank you

    Chuck, I’ve come back to this subject because I keep running into those who have been taught that “head” is only about authority (which as Paul shows is only one of its meanings), and who don’t realize that if “authority” shows up in the Kingdom of Christ it shows up as a servant role (i.e. using whatever strengths for the good of others).

  6. calliopelv says:

    Hello everyone

    I am fairly new here and I have enjoyed reading your comments on a number of past devotionals. I have yet to feel compelled to step up and add anything, but I guess that Mart is right, it’s still a touchy subject for many. It is still for me, too.

    I would like to share with you an experience that I feel is relevant to this discussion. While I had grown up in the Christian church, my United church background had taught me more about moral and ethical issues more than truly studying and proving God’s word. So when my children were born, they were baptized, and we would attend church infrequently and with less than any real feelings other than being part of a tradition.
    My best friend had grown up in another, much more orthodox(?) church, and our families spent much time together, we decided to try to become more involved. As this was a fairly new village for us, I did not know of any congregations, and had never ever been even invited to one. Her denomination’s church was closest, so we decided to attend there.
    Here is the real, painful price of this insistence of man’s idea of authority (bossiness,selfishness)over women, and most importantly, their wives. Our experience at that church turned me away so badly that I never really joined another church again. Every single service they seemed to take a special pride in placing the boys over the girls. Only the boys were allowed to go up to the front. Women were not allowed in any role other than child/house care. Their special place was reinforced over and over. It was implied that God’s love was a second class sort of love for women.

    As a career mom,female medical researcher, I found this to be so insulting to my young daughters that after 3 visits we left and we never went back. With no other church, essentially, I gave up on God, and in doing so, I have sinned more than anyone; I have not taught my children to love Christ, and now am fighting as hard as I can to have them see the Light before I am gone. Woe to those that turn away a little one from the face of Jesus!

    Yet even though I gave up on God’s idea of man, our Father did not give up on me, although for a very long time it seemed as He did. Everything in my life fell apart once I refused the replenishment of Living Waters. My husband (at that time) also a non practicing Christian, took no responsibility for leadership (or provision) spiritually for our family. Soon after I had to take my children and leave everything, as a cheating and unrepenant husband was still one of the few things I knew for sure was not God’s will.

    Bankruptcy,relocation, loss of all of my friends and support, loss of a job and the beginning of an unknown progressive disease became mine. In a short time I had managed to lose everything; my house, my husband, my health, my money, my ability to provide for my children, my support, my community, not including all material possessions. There I sat. A single mom, with 2 daughters and an exhusband who refused to pay for his chldren’s support.
    I THOUGHT that was bottom. And at the bottom, the only place to look is Up. I just had to look His way, and He accepted me lovingly back into His family. Praise the Lord!
    It has been a long, hard 14 years since that time. I was much better prepared then, when God placed my true love in my path. And the strange thing? While my first husband had not led, had not taken this responsibility, yet insisted on authority, I am now very grateful to be married to a man that knows that service and love is the basis of real authority, and the woman who had felt God was chauvinistic and uncaring realized that He had been right all along. Men should have Godly authority for over the family. I think that its the abdication of many men today, requiring the woman to not only provide, but lead, serve and submit; that is the real problem in a lot of young marriages today.

    How much good can a Godly husband do? In following God’s patterning, I am now completely in love with Jesus, thank Him every day for my husband, and willingly let him(and He) lead. That doesn’t mean he just gets to decide everything.(Although He does).
    It means that he will love me enough NOT to decide everything for his own gain. I can trust that he will not just take too much, but rather not enough for himself, and thus I shower him with love and affection. I ask for little, because I have no (spiritual) want, even though we have material want. And for men who just wish that their wife would share more physical intimacy; this is a natural outgrowth of a well-loved wife. She is not servant, she is not less than, she is loved and supported and with more than enough for herself she will naturally want to please and love you too.

    I can trust in the Lord, and my husband, and nothing can shake my committment now.
    One last point. Remember that progressive disease? Well, I guess that the first phase of challenges are now complete, but I am on to my second. Over the past 10 years I have progressively gotten weaker and sicker, and have been bedridden and housebound for nearly 2 years. I lost that great career that I loved due to His “re-assignment.” But I DO count all loss as gain now that He is my God. And I know that while I once again am brought low to the ground;I am here for a reason. This time,I see the gift. I spend all of my time looking heavenward now.

    Praise the Lord for the persistence of the Holy Spirit! While I did not know enough to hang on, He did it for me.

    With love, dear brother and sisters,

  7. poohpity says:

    Wow Lori,

    First thank you so much for sharing your pain with us. Second thank you for sharing the love you found through that pain very inspiring. It is a true reflection of how a church can cause pain and alienation while the Spirit of God can cause restoration, acceptance and grace. I am so glad you were open to hear His voice and not the voice of man. Thank you again.

  8. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Thank you Lori for sharing your life story with us.
    I have been thinking, since this topic began, and only one thing has been on my mind, your testimony reafirms this thought.

    There is a natural order to life that God has created and it is the way that works best.
    God is the head, man submits to God and woman submits to man.
    Non of this should be outside of love and respect as you have so wisely stated above. God cares for us and your husband cares for you and in return you please your husband and you both please God.
    It is such a wonderful bond of oneness that God has designed and wants us to live in.
    As in your life, when this breaksdown we end up out of sync with Gods natural laws and it all falls apart.
    When there is no “Man” to take authority in either the home or church, then “Woman” has to fulfill that role and God will bless that, but it is not His perfect will.

    again thanks for sharing.



  9. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Also like you Lori, God has slowly taken every prop I have been relying on away and there is now only one I can look to for support.
    My ex partner last week moved to Scotland for the summer and I now realize he was also a prop.
    The only way from here is to rely totaly on God.
    God is so good in His wisdom and grace.


  10. foreverblessed says:

    Welcome Lori, your testimony brought tears to my eyes!
    And how lovely God is, to be with you.

    As the churches who so much preach on submission of the women, (I was brought up in one)
    They are very bible proof, but they pick and choose the verses they want,
    Ephesians 5:21-33
    The focus is on the man loving his wife as Jesus did the Church,
    1 Timothy 2:8-15
    this starts with Paul teling the man to lift up holy hands in prayer….
    I have never seen hands lifted up in my old church, but the verse 11: women should be in full submission was often heard.
    If the men in church do not lift up their holy hands in prayer, and yet ask full submission of woman, be aware,
    they pick and choose out of the bible what they want, but do not have the mind of Christ, who was full humility Phil 2:1-11

  11. foreverblessed says:

    I do resonate with Mart, about the need to write about this topic, I am afraid that many christian men cannot go into heaven as they are now, because in heaven only the true servants are there, those who are fully focused on serving others, beside lifting their holy hands in praising God. If they don’t, they have to be tought humility before entering the gates of heaven.
    (I read in the visions of the christian-like apostle Paul, Sadu Sundar Singh about this.)

  12. SFDBWV says:

    Lori, my thoughts focus upon your testimony this morning….This is just how I have seen God work in lives, time and time again.

    You, Lori, are blessed, in areas and ways many will never know.

    How wonderful that not only is God at work in your life, but that you can recognize it, accept it and love Him for it.

    Thank you for your story, it has lifted me up today.


  13. foreverblessed says:

    For women, it is good to focus on Jesus, not on what men are doing wrong.
    I used to do that, but my eyes were opened when someone here (HeyRev) pointed to James 1:5 and James 3:17-18, prayerfully read these verses alternately.
    And then I saw that one of the characterisitcs of God’Spirit is to be submissive.

    If we as women get angry about men being bossy, there is a thin line to being judgmental and ending up doing the same.

  14. chfranke says:

    Your story is a compelling, heart-wrenching testimony. Tears welled up in my eyes and my heart goes out to you. Bless you and praise the Lord that you took the time to share it with us. Thank you.

    Bob in Cornwall
    Your are blessed as well. Thank you for continuing to share how God is working in your life.

    Thanks for your response and elucidation. I’m glad you keep running into those who are…um…authoritatively challenged(?)so we could revisit this subject. (Am I being humble enough? Sometimes I have to ask.)


  15. rxman says:

    Great topic!

    A little off topic but not really — I think we take so much of the Bible out of context and try to apply it to every circumstance. Even the sayings of Jesus need to be examined in what context and to who He was speaking to. A lot of misunderstanding in the church today is because of this, including the whole man-woman submission thing.

  16. Richard71644 says:

    Yes, it is still going on today (7/2010)!
    And #1 Abuser’s are the “Pastor’s”.
    They Love to hear everyone call them…”Pastor”, as if it were a Doctor’s address, or POWER Position.
    Just try to have something changed in the church today.
    Oh, well we can’t do that…..
    Why not? Well …..”Pastor Wants it that way”. And on and on…..
    Take away the “Power Name Position”, and they don’t have a job, with all the $$$ Salary & Benefits, that seem to go on and on and on………….
    Ever hear them at a restaurant or some place public?
    Time to pay the Bill…”Oh, I’m a
    Pastor”, so you have a DISCOUNT for Me, Right”??
    And this goes on forever like this in all the places.
    And, when they (Pastor’s) want something done in their home,….well, same Discount’s are expected, and they always seem to want MORE DONE for Nothing,that wasn’t in the agreement in the first place.
    If it’s not done for Free, they make sure you are Never recommended for jobs to other believer’s & whoever asks who did the work.
    Mart, You Know this is a True Statement, so why You come forth and admit it, and say some things about it.
    Your seeking the Truth about all of this, please Give us the Truth!

  17. pugbro says:

    As a retired business manager I guess I have a habit of looking at many things in a business setting. I see God’s message of “authority” sorta like a well run business. Yes there is a “Head”! However a really great “top dog” does not make all the dicisions alone. He gets feedback from all concerned (God & wife)and considers all the info, options etc before making a decision based on the good of the company (Family). I Thank God daily that I have 2 of the best business partners…(GOD and my wife)…One Fantastic Partnership!

  18. jimgroberts says:

    No one has mentioned what God said at the fall, “To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children.
    Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.'”. Throughout the old testament God placed the man above the woman. The lists of tribes were denoted by the males, even in serving God in the temple/synagogue it was the place of men. However, when Jesus said the Kingdom has come and man and woman were born again I believe there was a miraculous transformation. In answering a question of the Sadducee Jesus said “You are mistaken, in heaven there is no marrying and we will be like the angels”. I believe we are already being transformed. The new me is an equal in gender and we are ALL called Sons of God and belong to ONE family. There is a Father and there are sons and there are angels; Jesus does not mention any mothers or sisters in the heavenly family.
    Thus in the world the old values still hold but in the Spirit there is a new order.

  19. Rob says:

    Mart, I completely agree with you. In fact 5:25-27 is the answer.

    25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansinga her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

    The wife here has chosen to believe in the Husband who called her to be his bride and became his bride. This is how we are now as Christians (born again believers) in a personal relationship with Christ. What did Christ do for us? He sacraficed his own life to pay the sin debt that we owed. He presented us to himself covered, washed of our sin by his blood. He washed us and made us holy He then preseted us to himself. He served us with the greatest love ever. He says husbands are to do the same to their wives. What does this mean? Why should choose from day one to forgive our wives of any wrongs from day one, before they happen, we love them and present them spotless and holy to ourselves covering their sins with a multitude of love. I’m still single, but believe any woman who becomes my bride will see Christ in me. It is something that some disagree about with me, because the feel I am saying there is no discipline to unrully, abusiveness on either the husband or wives part. The wives should also reciprocate the same love to their husbands Eph 5:33 says “…the wife must respect her husband.” It’s not giving one an authoratative dictoritial abusive role over the other, but telling both the love each other as Christ loves us as servants. I like what pugbro said “One Fantastic Partnership!” But I would add that the best Head gets down and dirty with his those who work for him. He not on;y serves them but he gets in and works side by side with them sharing the load. So the husband, while being the authority over they wife treates her as a sister and calls her friend. He is the light to her and gives her live as Christ is the light to us and gives us life. I like what Paul says in Eph 5:32 “This is a profound mystery…”

  20. padawson says:

    Thank you Lori for sharing your experience and being so transparent. Also, Mart, thank you for revisiting this topic because it does need to revisited over and over again until we (men and women) have a clear understanding of what Jesus Christ is teaching us.

    I recently separated from my husband, and I left the marriage feeling that maybe I wasn’t marriage material. Now it seems the Holy Spirit keeps speaking to me and showing me truth in ways such as this article that is helping me to heal. I never thought when I married that I would experience the things that I did – verbal abuse, being cursed at, and a total show of disrespect. He would dismiss it as his “having issues” and that everyone has issues that he/she needs to work on. I started seeing a Christian counselor during our first separation and I asked my husband to attend as well, which he did after many conversations. However, neither of us completed the individual counseling. When I informed our counselor that we had reunited, he informed me of what would occur… that my husband would stop me from attending and that things would get worse. I didn’t want to believe that my husband was that way, but that he wanted our marriage to get better and that he would complete the counseling. Well, everything played out just as Dr. Snow said it would. I was devastated and completely confused about what was going on in my life. With the “power” trip comes the part of separating me from my family. He would always say that I didn’t know how to cut the umbilical cord; that he was my family now. It was as if I was supposed to act as if my family didn’t exist. If we did attend a family gathering, he was ready to leave after 2 hours or less. It made me so uncomforatable that I stopped going to any family functions because I was afraid he would cause a scene if I didn’t adhere to his wishes of leaving early.

    I could go on and on with expressing the many painful experiences that occurred during our marriage. Nowthat I am separated from him, I don’t experience the overwhelming feeling of intimidation and constant fear. He never became physically abusive, but verbal abuse is just as damaging. Now I look forward to further healing and moving on in a positve direction. I do pray for him daily because I hope that one day he will see that his way is not God’s will.

    Yes, this subject needs to continually be put before us as long as there are those who can relate painful life experiences because of his/her mate’s incorrect interpretation and application of God’s word and unwillingness to recognize his/her error.

  21. Rob says:

    I forgot to say that you disciple her in verse 27 with the love of Christ.

  22. Eli Eli says:

    One cannot be in authority or a good leader until one is a good servant. Yeshua (Jesus) came first as a servant to teach and die for our sins and then with the resurrection he became our king forever. Yeshua humbled himself and weashed the feet of the disciples. Yeshua (Jesus) said “If anyone wants to be fist, he must be the very last, and the servant of All.” Mark 9:38.
    I use my art gift to do sculptural portraits of Yeshua and bible themes,I’ve used the lesson of the servant to not boast when a sculpture won a first prize in an art exhibit. I let the Holy Spirit speak to the viewer about the sculpture. I let myself be a servant to spreading His message through my art. Eli

  23. jfripp76 says:

    American Christianity suffers, much like, Middle Eastern Islam, from not a runaway culture but that hangover of male chauvinism/male privilege. Men (and many women) are very adept at intentionally and unintentionally transferring culture imprints onto Christianity with the veneer of Biblical interpretations. We can stand outside and criticize Islam for its culture of oppression of women. But Jesus told us first remove that BEAM/LOG from our own eyes. Again the innocent suffer because the liberation from sin that God offers is foiled by the habits of oppression in American Christianity. Malcolm X, El Hajj Malik El Shabazz, once famously said that, “If you are born an American you are born into a racist society.” I would add we are also born into a sexist society. This is an ugly, unfortunate and real truth. Liberation comes from admitting those truths, thus becoming equipped to turn away from those oppressive behaviors and as men walk in the light of Christ servant model. God is love. Christ is still knocking on the door of our hearts to accept his invitation to live lives of service/sacrifice and joy of our salvation.

  24. scout1 says:

    Thanks for the topic, Mart. This is one that we all really can relate to in different aspects.

    Lori, I love your testimony. Thank you. It was a beautiful reminder of God’s love.

    And as always, Steve, your comments are very inspiring!

    In my life this subject is important because my exhusband married me to help him raise his 3 children from a previous marriage. When they were under our roof I was “allowed” to have a child of my own since I was raising the others.

    Well, I did have a beautiful boy, who is 9 years old now, and his father is not that interested in him. Being a family and raising a child really cramp his lifestyle. He knows all the right Christian terms and when you talk to him, you would think that he is a very spiritual person. But, in the 12 years we were married we attended church 4 times, maybe.

    I homeschool my son and use a very Christian based curriculum that my son loves! My ex husband supports and agrees with the homeschooling. He himself just doesn’t want to live it. I have been divorced for 6 years and am doing my best to raise him in a way that is pleasing to the Lord.

    That’s why I love Lori’s testimony -they are living like God wrote it in our “Operation Manual for Human Relations”. God made us and wrote down how we can operate the most effectively. It’s so unfortunate that most of us choose to live a “better way”.

    The Lord made the man to be the leader (servant/leader) and spiritual leader of a family. Men don’t want to take that role and women don’t want to submit! It goes round and round.

    But if both parent/spouses will submit to the way of the Lord -I know that things will work. Life will still have problems, but they will be yoked together, working like it was written in the Bible. I love how the Lord provided for women. So, to answer all your questions Mart, No! I don’t think that we are rewriting the Bible. I think you have said a mouth-full – and you hit the nail on the head!

    Have a blessed day!

  25. xamaica says:

    Like Lori, I truly enjoyed your testimony; I’m blessed by it. Mart, I’m one of those who get edgy and irritable whenever this topic comes up. Not because I don’t believe God’s Word, I do absolutely, but because so many have taken this Word as permission to be abusive both in the Body of Christ and at home.

    The word “submit” is hard to swallow because it has such a negative connotation. It conjures up pictures of women being less than men, a lower class citizen, if you will; someone who is there for the man’s needs and have no life of her own.

    However, although the meaning is subjection, reverence, surrender, etc., it recognizes that the individual asked to submit has their own will and a measure of authority (which is why women can be in leadership both inside and outside of the home {teach and train their children, etc.). It does not demoralize women, rather it’s a place of humility that says “I know I have my own strength and will, but I will place my strength in subjection to that of my husband to maintain God’s order and allow his blessings to flow.” A woman can only do that with genuine, sincere love from her husband, a love that will not take advantage of her vulnerability. On the flip side, that’s why God instructed men, so many times, to love, honor and care for their wives. This way, the wife will not disrespect the husband and the husband will not abuse his authority in the home.

    Parents have the responsibility to care for their children, masters have the responsibilities of caring for their servants, governments have the responsibility of caring for their constituents, and man has the responsibility of caring for his wife. It has taken me years to accept this, as a child of God and a career woman, but it’s God’s way and it does work.

  26. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    It has been raining today so the Boatman was sent home early, that’s me if you hadn’t realised.

    jimgroberts, I totally agree with you that there will be a new order and that in our new bodies we shall be neither male or female but will be Sons of the Living God, Jesus being the First Born among many.
    Although we are becoming a New Creation in Him we still live here as men and women and God has given us the relationship of man and wife so we can fully understand the relationship He wants with us.
    I have been single all my life and find it hard to make close relationships but can see from others how God intended it to be and it is an awsome thing when a man and woman are united as one in Christ.

    Richard71644, I think you must have been hurt at some point by a pastor, remember not all pastors are appointed by God but by man.
    The leader of a church should be the one willing to serve the most and he, or she, must gain the respect of their flock of followers.
    As seen from my side of the Atlantic, most US churches are run as businesses and the “pastor” is just, what we call the CEO (Chief Executive Officer) and is appointed for his business skills as well as being able to “market” Jesus to the people.
    This is not Christianity or in God’s plan for us.
    Believe me for every pastor you have seen behave in this bad way there are a thousand who are just working for God and you would never know who they were because they are servants of the Lord and claim nothing for themselves.
    There are one or two on this blog, although not pastors by name, that have given their entire lives to looking after and caring for God’s people. You will not know them because you will not see them, only the Jesus in them.



  27. barb39 says:

    Yes, Mart, I’m glad you revisited the topic. I’ve read some of your comments before and agree with you.

    I grew up in a church that allowed women in leadership, using the scripture that in the last days God would pour out his spirit on all flesh and sons and daughters would prophecy… and other scriptures. Anyway, after we joined a very conservative Baptist congregation, we were kind of surprised at any teaching sessions sessions that concerned women, leadership, family relationships, etc. One teaching suggested that an unmarried daughter ask her father before dating a certain person (even if she was 50 years old). In one ladies study, a lady said, it is so liberating to know I don’t have to make decisions. I just submit to my husband and trust that he will make the right decisions. Another teaching said that Eve’s sin was that she usurped leadership over her husband. (I pointed out that the Bible said that she disobeyed God regarding eating the fruit.)

    Perhaps some of the ideas presented are okay, but we have seen abuses of women through the years, and they often involve the idea of submission. My husband and I have made decisions together through the years and shared responsibilities. If I am better at figures, then I do the Income Tax, etc. This has worked for 50 years, so we think we are better off just skipping the teachings on marriage, women, etc. that are presented. Because they usually just involve women being accountable to men.

  28. Michael J says:

    Greetings, hope all are well and discovering new treasure in the Word of God daily.

    I have found that the most “sticky” issues that are often found to be of debate are really issues that deal with the practical reality of a sovereign God. A God that has by very nature authority in His person and His words.

    As always the greatest challenges and tests of truth will fall in the category of relationships …. with God first, then mankind. The foundation of these truths will reside in the essence and decree of a sovereign God who will “imprint” Himself in these relationships. To alter His design in relationships will in substance alter the “essence” and view of God Himself (much like using clay to form an object to our liking).

    A Christian lady wrote a fine book about submission being the basis of liberation. The principles applied to men and women as a life principle. The potential for changing a family, church, and nation were on the table, so to speak. I was excited …. others were not. Why so much resistance among Christians?

    I believe this “resistance” is to God Himself. A resistance against God’s sovereign right to design and to purpose. An actual rejection of right of God to say what is to be.

    If “liberation is through submission”, and it is rejected as revealed by a sovereign God in the Scriptures, then what or who fills that void? And where does “liberation” end up?

  29. foreverblessed says:

    What it is with submission is the same as all the other character traits of the Holy Spirit:
    love, joy,peace,
    you cannot demand love from somebody else!
    So why demand submission from someone else?

    Love is freely given,
    submission is freely given,
    with joy!

  30. sweetjesus says:

    Revised, absolutely not. Recovered for the sake of marriages today, definitely. The Lording over one’s wife speaks very highly to the perception the hubsand may have of what being a man of God really means.

    Many of our adult males are not taught how to be a husband how to care for his wife. It truly takes one falling in love with Jesus with a lot of His grace added in there to make a marriage work. My daughter asks does if it matters who she marries (in terms of race or economic status)and I often respond – indeed it does. Ladies: if a man does not know who he is in Christ and has not built a solid foundation on the Love of Christ, he will not know how to love you.

  31. marma says:

    There are many posts, but this is a subject I have thought of a lot over the years.

    Thank you, Mart, for bringing it up!

    I have been reading through the Gospels lately and been impressed by the authority of Christ in what he said, but also by how hard he worked tending to the needs of others. When the disciples would shoo people away–children, a blind man, for example–our Lord would have none of it. He was ever the servant.

    Also, it is also interesting to me how he spoke to women–challenging their ideas, asking them questions.

    We get off track, I think, when we want to create rules and regulations or just look at externals to indicate authority or submission. However, there is no substitute for walking in the Spirit, having the mind of Christ–being still and listening to that still, small voice.

    Your post gave me lots to think about. Thanks, Mart!

  32. marma says:

    barb39: I hear you! I’ve run into some of those applications of the submission verses myself–the one about asking a father’s permission is a classic.

    That brings up a question that comes up on this blog not infrequently. When is it going to far in the application of verses on submission or authority?

    I remember a post that talked on this very subject–of overreaching what scripture said in applying the verses to personal situations.

    Maybe I answered my own question in my previous post.

  33. Laus says:

    There is system in place for all the things. Let us take church as an example. As the bible says we all part of church. However the task each and every one of us do is different. This is like parts of body as paul says. Eye has a different purpose, ear has a different purpose.etc…Same way each and every one of the church members as a whole they have different positions and different responsibilities. But all are required and equal in front of God.

    Same way God created man and gave authority over everything and told hime to rule over everything. And God created woman out of man and gave her to hin as a helper. From the book of Genesis we clearly understand the very purpose of creation of woman into this world is to be a helper to man who was created by God in His own image. Further as paul says both man and woman are going to possess the eternal life. There is need for all (both men and woman) to understand the purpose for which God created and to do the same.

    However, we see there are lots of difference in opinions, views arising regarding the authority of men and the male-female gender equalism. The God’s word clearly explains the purpose of man and woman. However, the gender equalism is the thought of the world(satan) which is slowly induced in the minds of even christian people and it is diverting the people from the path and leading them towards hell.

    The basic reason for this is the thought (induced by devil) which is arising in the mind of woman which says “you are no way inferior to man! why should you obey whatever man says?” This is a worldly thinking. They compare themselves with pagans (people eho do not know God or people eho make their own Gods) and leave the track and deviate from their calling. This is the deception of satan and we are seeing many women are falling in this trap just by thinking gender equality with their intellectual/worldly mind.

    This is the time we (both men and women) have to be more careful and watch. We should not fall into the deceptive and life spoiling thoughts from satan. Ultimately these thoughts lead to separation of families, breaking of relationships thereby taking people away from God. This is the very purpose of satan.

    Let God give each one of us give the strength to accept and understand the purpose of our creation and do His will and resist and break the deceptive thoughts of satan.

    God bless all

  34. Ford Keating says:

    Mart, It seems to me that we often overlook Eph. 5:21 in understanding the rest of the chapter. “Submit to on another out of reverence for Christ”. If we see verse 21 as the first verse of the rest of the chapter, Then 22-24 tell us how the wife submits to the husband and 25-33 tell us how the husband submits to the wife.

    Another thought about the roles in marriage is that neither one is truely qualified to explain to the other one what their role is in the marriage. After all, the husband has never been the wife, and vs.22-24 are meant for the wife alone. Likewise, the wife has never been the husband, and vs. 25-33 are meant for the husband. There seems to be enough instruction for each partner to fill a lifetime of Chrisian growth and love in marriage.

    Thanks for a great ministry and God bless.

  35. foreverblessed says:

    I agree with Ford Keating,
    if I read Ephesians 5:25-33, and then go to my husband and demand him to love me intensely to even lay down his life for me, which these verses do tell, I totally miss the point. (It does not say that the woman has to lay down her life for the husband, and yet many do that anyway. We have to learn to lay down our lives to Jesus first)
    So it is impossible for the man to demand from his wife to submit to him.
    Jesus does not demand us to submit to Him. He first lays down His life for us, then He draws us by chords of love. (I was looking for that verse in the bible, where is it?)
    If we do not submit, see how He works with us. Look at how He does get our attention. How sweet He is, even if we wander away from Him.
    Lets look to Jesus, He and the Church, Paul calls it a mystery Eph 5

  36. foreverblessed says:

    Marma, I love the way you describe how Jesus was on earth. What an example for men, if men in church were like that, then no problem for women to submit.
    But the way Laus puts it, sorry Laus, but how you put in words resounds how my old church would explain the order of things. The thing is, the man did not look at the needs of the women, they would do their own things, developing speech skills, watching football, having their own hobbies, and asking their wives to support them. They were focussed on their own needs. With the bible in hand, the order of things. But they did not have the mind of Christ, He would have looked to the needds of the wife, of the children, of all those in want. The men of the curch did not do that, they left that for the women.
    And the way Marma puts it, is so different, I sense the mind of Christ. We must have the mind of Christ if we interpret anything out of the bible, system, order on biblically basis.
    So yes, I think many things must be revisited, Jesus Christ must be put in central position, and then look back at all the orders and commands of the old testament, and see Him in it, the way He was and is and ever will be.

  37. foreverblessed says:

    At church we learned a new song lately:
    Love each other by Graham Kendrick
    the song is about the room where the last supper is,
    the room became really quiet, when the bowl was filled with water, Jesus stooped down, all were hushed and still,
    he kneeled at their dirty feet, and started to wash them,
    then Jesus says: this is what I want you to be, this is what I want my church to be, love each other as I have loved you, do the dirty jobs as I did for you.

    A new order of things, totally new
    the Creator who stoops down and lays his clothes aside,
    the Creator that layed His life down, so you and me could be freed.
    This was hidden in the pages in the bible, it was a mystery, it was always there, we have to find it, dig it out.

  38. SFDBWV says:

    While reading this mornings news I came accross a story of the upcoming exicution of an Iranian woman accused of adultery.

    It is a sickening story of how too far the concept of women being the property of men, and subject to an out of balance set of standards to live by.

    I would ask us tp offer up the strength of our prayers for Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani and save this woman from a horrible fate.


  39. David says:

    Mart, I am very thankful I decided to read your post today. It was needed. I have seen so much hatred expressed in the media today, I start wondering if there is anyone who really loves Jesus and is not just paying lip service. Jesus gave us one command, “love one another,” and sumned up the law and the prophets with the 1st Commandment and then, interestingly, the golden rule, “love your neighbor as yourself.”

  40. Michael J says:

    There is a very sobering passage in Matthew chapter 7. In this passage the Lord says to certain people to depart; he said to them that they were “lawless” …. “I never knew you”. All these people’s stated their religious deeds (based on the Old Testament law) and He calls them “lawless”. What’s that all about? And what does that have to do with this blog discussion?

    Well, a lot I think. Please, allow me to take this a little further. David, your comment was short and to the point, yet in substance quite profound. And, yes, loving God and loving mankind is a command. The fulfilling of the righteous demands of a Holy God are relational. First, with Himself and from that to others. This blog discussion is about relationships.

    The carrying out of this in daily life must be different than those in Matthew chapter 7. The statement “I never knew you” is a relational statement. Religion, without appropriate role relationship, is in this passage. In effect, those called “lawless” did not want to have God to be in His role as Sovereign. They did not want God that way. They wanted to worship God their own way …. religiously and not relationally.

    “I will not have this ‘man’ rule over me” was the response to the lord of the vineyard in one of Jesus’ parables. In this parable, the servants and then the son of the lord of the vineyard were killed. The rebellious attitude toward the lord of the vineyard resulted in the death of whomever he sent, even his son. “We will not have this “man” rule over us!”.

    The foundational truth of being able to live in our relationships to one another is based on the choice to come to God as He is and to enter into a chosen relationship in which He is God and we are not. EVERYTHING is then built upon this in all our relationships toward others. As stated in James 4, “God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble” and “Submit to God”. There will be no fruit of the Spirit for the Christian who is lawlessness toward God.
    God resists that person because he or she is proud. They know better than God.

    Since the Christian life is supernatural and relational, then that is where our battle will be.

    According to most of the legitimate survey groups, the church as far as it’s divorce rate and it’s morality are on a par with the lost world. There is no difference in the numbers as a whole. I have seen the devastation that occurs when who God is and what He says is “added to or taken away from”.

    Maybe, a supernatural God who is sovereign is the foundation of living a supernatural life in our relationships. Maybe, it is as David wrote. Clear, and profound.

    I am not questioning one’s salvation by starting out with a passage dealing with the unbelieving. I find this passage extremely clear on the ground-floor issue of lawlessness. The passage in James is to the Church and definitely applies to the saved. However, the foundation issue is the same. Quite practical for our lives with one another. Who is God …. and what has He REALLY said. Will that be enough? Can He handle all the other matters if I simply submit to Him and follow through in my life?

    Sorry for being so “wordy” but there is so much riding on this issue. I am soon to be 62 years old and have been a Christian since the early 70’s. That does not necessarily mean much, but I have seen and observed much over the years. I have been diligent to study and willing to be changed by God and what I find in scripture. And, I have been married to the same woman since March of 1970. And, I have learned (and unlearned) much in our marriage relationship. God’s glory and imprint are at issue as others observe whether God is really relevant in our lives. You know, when it really matters …. when it touches home. Michael

  41. poohpity says:

    People can become hard nosed and legalistic about many things especially the treatment of each other. As we discussed in the last topic we have barometers to test our behaviors and how we relate to one another. If one will read those characteristics and compare their behavior and wisdom to those then each may determine where they fall short. Read the attitudes we need to embrace in Matt 5:1-12, see how much of the Spirit of God is within you read Galatians 5:22-26 and the true wisdom from Heaven in James 3:13-17. If we are not “submissive” to the Spirit of the Living God and argue and fuss over who is the leader in anyone’s life obviously it is not the Holy Spirit because the fruit of that Spirit will be reflected in one’s life.

    This is my opinion. I have been around many people from all over the world but those that are the strongest have been the quietest and the most self controlled. I have seen men who did not have to display their physical strength even though in a blink of an eye could kill but have chosen not to display that strength “especially” on someone weaker. It is so odd to me that when we discuss this issue there are so many comments to the authority or head but people seem to fail in so many areas when it comes to the real heart of the matter. There are so many in authority that have misused that power to hurt the very ones that need protection, for their ambition, control and power and that includes our government but we choose to argue these issues in our body of Christ. Take a long look in the mirror and see how much of Christ is displayed in your life and concentrate on the person in the mirror then we would not have so much time talking about who is in charge/head/authority because we will realize as human beings we have failed each other so miserably.

  42. sweetnose521 says:

    Having been married for 30 years, to a non-believer. I believe the bible word for word. We took those vows before God and our families and no matter what happens I am committed to till death due us part because I believe that is what God expects. Can you imagine what a different world it would be if everyone felt that way? Thank you for your website and God bless everyone

  43. poohpity says:

    So are you saying even if your husband hit’s you or abuses you emotionally that that would be honoring God to stay in that relationship? There are those that that happens to and because of their love of the Lord thinks that God would have them stay and be treated that way.

  44. saled says:

    barb39 mentioned the lady in her Bible study who said it was liberating not to have to make decisions and just submit to her husband and trust that he will make the right decision. I used to live that way also, but I can now see that I was just choosing the easy way, not the right way. My husband is a great guy, but not perfect, and his brain tends to work in a more straight forward way than mine, so he often misses subtleties and connections that my brain picks up on. It was my habit to avoid confrontation at all costs, so I would just go along with what he decided. There would often be this nagging feeling that what we were doing was wrong, but it was easy to justify it with the submission argument.

  45. kenduski says:

    does jesus consult with the church, check out her opinions on the matter, and then decide based on a democratic interpretation of what everyone thinks, or does He just say this is the way it is?

    wives are told, in no uncertain terms in scripture, to submit to and obey their husbands. obviously that means when their husbands are asking them to do something that is not illegal, harmful, hurtful, offensive, demeaning, etc. modern women believe they have the right to make their own decisions, and in marriage are not required to listen and obey their husbands when they disagree with what he is asking them to do. and they consider themselves to be submissive.

    any way you cut it, modern teaching denies the authority of the christian man over the woman, and makes it look like he needs her permission to do anything. in that sense, submission nowadays as per your general teaching is non existant. and modern women cling to this so they don’t have to obey their husbands, and they now tell husbands what to do…

    you call that progress. i do not. kenduski

  46. marma says:

    saled: I appreciated your comments about taking the easy way out. As a single woman, I have found this, too, in work/personal situations where I took the easy way out and would avoid the confrontation. Certainly this isn’t limited to marriage, but at the same time, the “submission clause” makes this an easy habit to fall into ans I agree that this isn’t true submission.

    Sometimes we need to speak up; sometimes we need to take the wrong, sometimes just wait and be silent until the proper time if that comes. But how do we know when to do this except by the Spirit of God? I think it is through our submission to God that we learn how to submit to others in a Biblical way. To learn what that really means is a lifelong pursuit, I think!

    Wives are to submit to husbands, slaves to masters, all believers to authorities, and believers to one another. But the relationships and the expectations of those relationships are different, aren’t they? I’d be interested to hear others thoughts on that.

  47. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,

    Mart – My first initial thoughts, on the questions you asked, “Is this a revisionist approach to husband and wife relationships, as some fear?

    My understanding of the term, “revisionist approach” is that some “believers” think that other “believers” are misinterpreting the Bible. Some “believers” don’t believe that Jesus actually meant what He said in the scripture references you provided. I don’t think Jesus could have made His point any clearer.

    Worth noting that God’s Word is spiritually discerned; revelation is given by the Holy Spirit. The Bible says that, “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17, NKJV). For some “believers,” they’d rather turn a blind eye and deaf ear to what Jesus said and do their own thing.

    In reponse to your question, “Don’t these texts actually reclaim and clarify the meaning of “head” from the damage that has been done to it by a surrounding runaway culture that tracks all the way back to our first parents fall into sin—and the curse that followed (Gen 3:15-16)?”

    My answer is “yes.” After reading the scripture references that you provided, I don’t think anyone could get any other meaning (or understanding) for the word “head.” Am thinking about the different types of love (agape, philos, eros, storge) and how all are needed in order for a marital relationship to be successful. I think “love” is the principal character trait here (1 Corinthians 13; 1 John 4:8).

    Gal. 5:22-23 NIV, a scripture ref. that you provided, comes to mind, “22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23)gentleness and self-control…” All are important character traits in any relationship.


  48. marma says:

    I think it is interesting to contrast Acts 5 and Acts 18 and the two different marriages presented.

    Keeping in mind that Sapphira didn’t know her husband was dead, and knew what he had done about the property–they were rather like fellow conspirators.

    On the other hand, what a team are Priscilla and Aquila–a blessing as a team. It seems that she was fully committed along with her husband to Christ and the Gospel.

    How different are the hearts of these couples–on the surface, both united in purpose. But only one of the couples submitted to Christ.

  49. foreverblessed says:

    kendusky wrote:
    any way you cut it, modern teaching denies the authority of the christian man over the woman, and makes it look like he needs her permission to do anything.
    Do you mean to say, that when the man has authority over the woman he does not need her permission to do anything?

  50. foreverblessed says:

    This verse spokt to me:
    then all churches will know that I am He who searches hearts and minds, Revelation 2:23

    Will we search our hearts and minds, to see what is in it, to see what we think of scripture, do we see the face of Jesus reflected in it?

  51. Elaa says:

    Is it rewriting the Bible that ask that human beings be treated with respect and dignity, especially by the person who promised to love and cherish them?

    As a public health profession and a domestic abuse survivor, I believe my experience has birth in me a ministry for liberty from domestic abuse for the African Faith Community. And contrary to fears in some places that I intend to become an advocate to encourage people to leave their marriages, I intend to become an advocate for the African Faith Community to desist from creating an enabling environment for domestic abuse to survive.

    I would still be married today, and happily married too, I might add, if there were enough believers who pointed out to my ex-husband the inconsistency of his behavior and the faith he claimed to profess. Christ, with all His authority, condescended to take on human flesh because of His love for mankind. He lived on earth without a ‘chip on His shoulder’, and washing the feet of His disciples could not take away from His leadership.

    After living in a shelter for abused women for six weeks, I returned to my abusive husband because my Pastor (Faith Community) said I needed to, and my family (culture) said I was a disgrace. I resigned myself to faith, and promptly conferred on myself the status of “Lesser mortal a.k.a. domestic help of the dark ages”. I could never have survived by abuse thinking I was a human being let alone the wife of my abuser.

    It took reading “God’s Protection For Women” by RBC for me to begin to consider that Christ didn’t love me enough to die for me so that another person could reduce me a rag not worthy to be used in the house kitchen but in the mechanic workshop. And to save myself, recover my mind and my dignity, I sought help not in the Church, but in a secular domestic abuse program.

    I was ready to leave the church. I remember saying to one Pastor, “If I have to go to hell, so be it. Afterall, it’s not the cats and dogs that are meant to end up in hell, but people.” Fortunately, my Pastor I believe, heard from God and reached out to me. But I felt opposition and still feel so today, from those who insist I should have remained in my abusive marriage.

    In the interim, nobody is working with my ex-husband on how to exercise biblical authority and distinguishing it from cold and dictatorial control and oppression. He will go ahead to marry another Christian sister (I was not his first wife) and with his Bible in his hands, he will proceed to kill her spirit, and unless with divine intervention, perhaps even her life.

    The reason I almost threw my own life away was because I wanted so much not be a divorce statistics. I wanted so much to be an example of total submission to your husband no matter what you’ve done with your own life. And even though I knew immediately the abuse began, I used “The Bible says” as an excuse to let it continue.

    I know I won’t go back to my abusive ex-husband. But I strongly believe my marriage would not have failed if the faith community had focused half as much on him to exercise godly authority as it did on me to be submissive(read as ‘roll-over-and-play-dead.’

  52. SFDBWV says:

    There is such a wide difference in the psycology of people, the idea that we can settle on a consensus is just not going to happen, so long as we rely only on ourselves to set a standard. The writen Word of God is to be our standard…Not what we think.

    We are taught that Christ is the same, from yesterday through today, and forever.

    To revise the scripture to meet todays political correctness or culture is in err.

    God is our moral compass, God has sent prophets, His Son and given the Holy Spirit to all who recieve His son into their hearts.

    The test of a prophet is that his prophesies are 100% correct. Not 99%, 100%.

    The test of a Christian character is the fruit of His/her spirit they produce.

    The difference between the prophet and the Christian is that the character of the Christian is always in development, never truly reaching that 100% mark until the marriage supper of the Lamb.

    Though there is a vast difference between the new believers view and understanding of scripture and the mature one…The message of the scripture never changes….only is understood deeper and deeper as the believer matures in the relationship with Christ.

    If I were to take the shallow view of the verses that place man over his wife, that is what I see, read and understand. Clear enough, the man over the woman, the husband over the wife.

    However as I develop a deeper understanding of these verses, I learn a deeper meaning through the fuller understanding of related scripture and from the education of the Holy Spirit.

    What I learn is that, if a man and woman decide to marry, first of all this marriage is to be between two believing Christians. We are not to be unequaly yoked.

    We are to learn who the other person is we are to marry, a years time between becoming engaged and getting married.

    We are to enter into the marriage with the understanding of the responsibilities each person bring to the union, and the proper boundries of these responsibilities. The union making the completed person.

    Love will never produce abuse of any kind.

    Husbands love your wives, wives love your husbands, not selfishly but selflessly….There will be no confusion nor problems of who is above the other.


  53. foreverblessed says:

    Steve, the man over the woman…
    what does that mean…
    with a deeper understanding, of a person who is mature in Christ?
    If it needs to be reconsidered that a man can decide anything without the consent of his wife.
    If he cannot do that, does it mean:
    -she is not submissive,
    or does it mean
    -he can’t rule over her,

    Jesus said, he who wants to first must be your slave, Matthew 20:28

    Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve, and give His life as a ransom for many.

    So if the man is over the woman, he is her slave.
    Doesn’t He say that? With scripture in hand that conclusion is also easily made. I hope no woman will treat her husband as a slave. Just as a church does not treat their pastor as a slave. Neither do we treat Jesus as our slave, we respect Him, submit to Him, ahd yet He served us, and still serves us.

    I am stretching scripture too far now.
    I agree with Steve, the clue is Love,
    anything without love is useless
    1 Corinthians 13:4-13
    is a good one for a woman and for a man.

    for anyone who wants to read it now:

    love is patient
    love is kind
    It does not envy
    it does not boast
    it is not self-seeking
    it is not easily angered
    it keeps no record of wrongs
    love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth
    it always protects
    always trusts,
    always hopes
    always perseveres
    love never fails

  54. foreverblessed says:

    Elaa, thanks for your testimony.
    What difference would it make to the marriages if the church preaches husband to love their wives? Love, love and love.

    And what if was preached what Jesus said:
    You know that the rulers of the gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.
    Not so with you.
    Instead, whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant. Matthew 20:25-27

    So no man can exercise authority over his wife.
    That is biblical, scriptural based advice to man.
    And that does not mean that the woman is unsubmissive.

    See the difference?

  55. SFDBWV says:

    I don’t know how I can be any clearer than I have been.
    Be quick to listen and slow to answer.


  56. foreverblessed says:

    Sorry Steve, to have made you think I was gainsaying you, I was not at all. Just going on in the discussion of what a deeper undestanding is of what Jesus meant, I got it what you said, you said the same. I was just moving a bit further on. All in peace.

  57. Mart De Haan says:

    Thank you Elaa for telling your painful story.

    As you have seen all too clearly, the Bible’s own words “head” and “submit” are too often not being used as the Bible uses them– to reflect what it means to sacrificially love (seek the good of another) as Christ has loved us– but instead are pulled out of context to reinforce an authority that is demonic rather than Christ-like.

  58. Mart De Haan says:

    kenduski, thanks for being honest with us. The reason for this post is that so many men (and women) would agree with you.

    Please consider that a high view of Scripture considers every word of a text inspired and necessary for a historical grammatical interpretation that protects “meaning” that is consistent with the heart and character of God.

    I say that because Paul specifically explains what he means when he gives us the analogy of Christ’s relationship with the church. He does not appeal to Christ sitting on his throne as the example husbands are to follow, but Christ, suffering and giving up his life on the Cross for our rescue.

    I’ve found that distinction critical to helping me see that a high view of the Bible will not allow me to regard “authority” (if “head” only meant “authority”) the way “authority” and “leadership” are used by the world.

    Have also concluded that we don’t even have to go into word debates to find the heart of God on the relationship between men and women. The most basic principle of doing unto others as we would have them do unto us (practiced in the Spirit of Christ) would be all we needed to see how wrong it is for a husband or wife to try and control the other with threats, manipulation, shame, guilt, misuse of Scripture, etc.

  59. rxman says:

    Can I ask a question?

    Say a decision has to be made in a marriage. The husband and wife talk it over and there are pros and cons to each side, but something has to be decided. After prayerful consideration by both, who should be the one that has the final say in the decision? Doesn’t God give that authority to the husband?

    And even if it seems that the decision is wrong, should the wife submit to that decision and support her husband. Of course, the husband should be humble enough to admit when the decision is wrong.

  60. Mart De Haan says:


    That’s a good question. Seems to me that the answer requires wisdom.

    Wisdom seeks understanding, insight, knowledge. And I’m convinced that, in most if not all cases, the answer is not simply an issue of “who has the authority to make the decision” even in a tiebreaker situation.

    Wisdom according to James is “pure (rightly motivated/i.e. loving), then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. {partiality: or, wrangling} (James 3:17).

    Sometimes, depending on the seriousness of the issue, getting a third or fourth opinion might help both to come to agreement.

    Sometimes, if the issue isn’t critical, the issue is what is more respectful and considerate…

    Seems like the only time we should be really digging in our heels is in a really important issue that might hurt one another if we use poor judgment. And in those matters if we aren’t of one mind, why not take whatever time we have to get more information, perspective etc…

  61. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I am going to start this comment in a manner that has caused problems before.
    As a Gay Man and a Christian, I understand exactly where you are coming from.
    Todays church offers nothing to those in our society who are different and I think being a woman or being gay makes you you different.
    This world, and the church, is so obsessed with “Gods so called normal” that it refuses to see the need in people.
    Jesus came to help you and me, so please listen to Him and not the church.


  62. Michael J says:

    Good morning,

    I listened to a message yesterday by a speaker named Ravi Zacharias. He was born in India and became a born again Christian when he was in his teens. He was explaining the difficulty in witnessing to a Hindu because of the fact of past abuses by so-called Christian nations upon the Indian people. He said it would be hard to witness because the Indian people never forget history.

    Even if the abuses did not reflect the true Spirit or teaching of Jesus Christ or the Bible. Even if those committing the abuses were not actually representing the truth.

    Last night in our small group fellowship, the passage in Matthew 18:15-20 came up in our discussion time. One class leader mentioned that when in another church the leadership would not allow this to be applied in a relationship rift. Unresolved issues were allowed to continue without any sense of Jesus’ words.

    Verse 17 said that this was not an acceptable attitude for the assembly. Why? At issue was the reality of salvation, the reality of Jesus in our relationships, and fact that being of the covenant meant something. To allow the attitude of the wayward to be acceptable creates an atmosphere in an assembly of denial and unbelief … left to permeate the atmosphere. Possibly, a leavening issue.

    This passage was the context of the shepherd going out to find the lost sheep. Danger awaited the sheep that was astray. Love and truth must go into action appropriately. The text listed the need and the importance of “amening” the reality of relationship.

    Some of those in class did not want to hear this at all. Their facial expressions possibly showed something from the past which was painful. History.

    Abuses of the truth or improper actions by others in the past do make a denial of scripture ever acceptable (Matt. 4:4).

    When we say that we are believers in Jesus Christ —- it really means something. The church leadership needs to allow Christ to operate where “two or more are gathered together in Jesus’ name.

    I do not think of the Matt. 18 passage as a “discipline” passage. I see it as a relationship passage that is centered on Jesus’ reality among us.

  63. Michael J says:


    Left out a word.

    Abuses of the truth or improper actions by others in the past do NOT make a denial of scripture ever acceptable (Matt. 4:4).

    Sorry. Michael

  64. poohpity says:

    I think, ooops, I am a women so I am not supposed to think although my creator gave me a brain, lol. I believe the problem lies in many areas some of which include really understanding how Christ cares for the Church, the difference between “control” and authority, the difference between submission and a “door mat” and taking scripture out of context. Not just single passages but out of the entirety of the whole book.

    If any man would like in anyway to compare themselves to Christ and His authority there maybe a God complex problem. Because no human being alive can even come close to the love He showed the church which in scripture is what the husband is to show his wife. To treat her as a part of his own body. To care for her as he cares for himself. I do not believe that means controlling and bossing her it means honoring Christ by submitting to “EACH OTHER”. Not who is the boss. Then it becomes oppression and abuse.

    Of course there are those who abuse their own bodies and usually those are the ones who do not respect another person and do horrible things to their wives by not allowing them to live, thrive and grow. Christ allows people to love Him by first loving them not ordering them around and denying them the use of their brain. We have to remember as Paul taught that the first women came from man but every man from there out came from women. We are to help each other in life not who is the boss but realizing we can out of love submit to each other to act out that love.

    If I were a non-believer coming in and reading some of these comments I would turn around and leave where on earth is the love of Christ we preach if not in our own homes. Control and domineering is not attributes of Christ and if that is the interruption some see and act on then you have really missed the boat. Love your wives as Christ loved the church. He did not hit her, call her names, disrespect her knowledge and make her submissive. God created each human being with gifts and unique qualities to benefit the Kingdom nobody is any better than anybody else. God wants each individual to be just that working together to achieve a common goal to bring Glory to HIS Name not our own.

  65. poohpity says:

    I would also like to know where in scripture does God ever force His will on us. We willingly submit to His leading because we know He has our best in mind. Any women any place would be willing to give their self over to anyone who has their best in mind not by force or because the bible says so but because they love their husband and respect him. Respect and trust has to be earned in a human perspective not because who are ordered to do so. If a decision is ever challenged and one gets upset when they are not obeyed that is a human response to an authoritarian person with control issues. It will not usually happen when someone is acting in a loving manner.

  66. foreverblessed says:

    Thanks Pooh, God does not force us to yield to Him.

    As I have been thinking the last few days on this topic, authority in the marriage.
    Grown up in a legalistic church, bible fearing people:
    I have made this conclusion:
    the more the submission of the wife is required, as the order of things,
    the less the people are in submission to Jesus Christ.

    But being legalistic means that people adhere more to the laws of God, then that they are children of God through faith in Jesus Christ.
    What Michael J wrote July 8 10.34 am
    That God will say at the end: I know you, because you are my child, I have begotten you and nourished you, and comforted you, and heard your voice singing in the garden. You are mine.
    (Michael J, I do not understand what you just above want to say? What does amening mean, while I realy love all your posts)

  67. poohpity says:

    I did not mean “interruption” lol I meant interpretation but it does cause an interruption. lol

  68. Michael J says:


    Would it not be a shame to miss out on a relationship with God (through Jesus Christ) because in the past a person had been mistreated by “Christians”. To dismiss the teaching of Jesus Christ because of human sinfulness.

    Would it not be a shame (and loss) to miss out on a supernatural life (as a believer) because of the mis-deeds or others? Possibly, in the Church itself …. more likely in the home.

    Much of what I think I have read in a lot of posts on this subject seemed to me to reflect the abuse and hurt of others by people who were in roles of authority.

    Some living outside the “limited-authority” role God has given them have hurt the the one’s they were supposed to care for and nurture. Sometimes that is even parents to children. Surely, husbands to wives. It is always wrong to sin in the name of God toward others. Sometimes it is wives toward husbands. All wrong and damaging.

    The problem for the Hindu who saw abuse by Christians in their land was really with the abusers. To reject God’s design and plan because someone else chose to live outside the Spirit filled love of God is pointed in the wrong direction.

    The flaw is not in the design. The very life of Jesus Christ must flow through us to produce the fruit of the Spirit (of Christ). That is where the supernatural love of God happens. It is written about in the Gospel of John chapters 14-16. It is a commandment from which the design of the Father will function in love.

    That is why in the Matthew 7 passage the law deeds of those before the throne were not accepted. They never had a relationship with God that was personal. He said “I NEVER knew you”; they were never saved. They did not want God as their sovereign authority. A real worship issue at the least. For He has made Himself known (Romans 1:18ff). They did not want Him as such.

    There is no freedom and blessing apart from an approach to God which is relational. This is a foundational concept from which we are to live (Romans 6). The design of God for all arenas of life must reflect His functional order. The design which reflects His essence is meant to imprint Him. It is for His glory.

    I have been beaten up pretty bad at times in Church and sometimes at home. Sometimes deserved, sometimes not. I had to decide what I was going to do at different times. Deep emotional pain was involved. I am finding my desire grow to worship God and to find truth as He reveals it in the Word. Truth IS reality.

    No one in a position of “limited-authority” God which has established EVER has the approval of God to act on their own authority. Their authority is not to exceed the character of Christ imparted by the Holy Spirit. That includes Pastors and church leadership. Their authority is limited also. But, they do have a functional authority to do God’s will. So does the husband. TO DO GOD’S WILL.

    I do not think I have answered “foreverblessed” as I would like. This subject really cannot be limited to only one aspect of consideration. It is tied to so much. I will try again if you wish. I am trying to learn to communicate truthfully and clearly. It is harder than I expected.

  69. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,

    Enjoyed reading all of the comments on this blog topic.

    Poohpity – Your comment, “Take a long look in the mirror and see how much of Christ is displayed in your life and concentrate on the person in the mirror then we would not have so much time talking about who is in charge/head/authority because we will realize as human beings we have failed each other so miserably.”

    was very thought-provoking. It brought to mind a verse in a song by Michael Jackson that I want to share:

    “Man in the Mirror”
    I’m starting with the man in the mirror
    I’m asking him to change his ways
    And no message could have been any clearer
    If you wanna make the world a better place
    Take a look at yourself and then make a change

    When you wrote, “and see how much of Christ is displayed in your life” it brought to mind this Bible reference: Phil. 3:10-11, NKJV
    10) that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11) if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

    marma – July 8 (10:36 pm) I agree… interesting contrast of the two marriages!

    Lori & Elaa – Thank you for (courageously) sharing your personal testimonies. I’m so glad that God provided help for both of you in your time of trouble (Psalm 46:1).

    Mart – I love the picture of the “headless” manquins, and the question, “What about the “Head”?” :-)


  70. Michael J says:


    The use of “amening the reality of relationship”?

    We can accept or deny anything. That text in Matthew 18 dealt with an individual who said they were in covenant relationship with God and then chose to sin against another person who also said they were in covenant relationship with God.

    The person who sinned against the other was approached by the saved person. The reality of their relationship was with God for sure. However, it was also with all others who were saved (covenant people). Jesus said to pray, “OUR Father….”. I did not just enter into a relationship with God when I was saved; I also entered into a relationship with all those saved by Him.

    I can acknowledge that relationship to believers or I can deny that relationship by my words and actions. “Where two or more are gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst”. The sinning believer chose to deny (not Amen the reality of Jesus in their lives). This was by not listening to them on all three levels in the Matthew 18 passage.

    In essence, the sinning believer was approached by those coming in the name of Jesus, with Jesus in their midst, and the sinning believer denied the reality of Jesus among them. At first, it was only the one who was sinned against who came. Then, 2 or 3 more as witnesses. Then, before the whole assembly. In every case, the sinning believer denied the reality of any relationship with Jesus and with those who Jesus came with. It meant nothing to him at all.

    But, it meant something to Jesus. He said this individual was to be treated as one who is not of the covenant (a Gentile). And Jesus was there all the time in the midst and empowering the believers to try to get the straying sheep back.

    We can actually deny in practical action the substance and practical reality of our salvation. We can do this by failing to acknowledge that same salvation we possess in others whom Jesus sends. The “amening” is the practical acknowledgment of our own salvation by how we respond to the reality of others’ salvation. Because relationship with God is real and Jesus is real. “Amening” is practical agreement with that reality.

    Wishing you the best. Michael

  71. poohpity says:

    Michael I think your point is made and is very good. Human beings treat each other terrible because mostly of their own in securities or may feel threatened in some way or another. It is sad but true. It would be nice if we who are called by the name of Christians could be different but that is up to each to look in the mirror and see what we are truly reflecting.

  72. SFDBWV says:

    When I was a small boy, out in a field behind our house was a good sized box attached to a pole. The box had a lid on the front of it that hinged downward.

    Curious, I went out the the box one summer afternoon and opened down the lid…..

    There was the biggest hornets nest I have ever seen hidden inside that closed box….

    Now, with the lid open, I could not approach the box to close the lid, as angry hornets were buzzing everywhere.

    I guess I didn’t learn the lesson very well.

    This is how I feel when I approach this blog sometimes, as if it is filled with angry hornets ready to attack any intruder that don’t fit in the accepted thinking.

    Too often after the subject has been up long enough to have come full circle and seemingly exhausted the subject matter, people start to get *edgy*.

    What I think, doesn’t matter.It is what God thinks that matters. What God thinks He had His servants write down for the rest of us to read.

    Is what His servants wrote down up for debate? Are we now to use our *free will* to alter the meaning of what God clearly said?

    I remember in the Garden of Eden, that the serpant said “Yea, hath God said, ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
    And the woman said unto the serpant, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden. But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it lest ye die.

    First off, the serpant misquotes God and twists what was said….then the woman, correctly answers the serpants question, but couldn’t let it rest there, she had to add to her answer what God had not said.

    We have not changed, we still misquote God and add to what He said…..Anytime there is confusion about a subject here or anywhere concerning scripture, I am compeled to return to the written Word, and stick to it.

    Sometimes this isn’t a classroom as much as it is a playground…


  73. foreverblessed says:

    Michael, thanks for explaining, it is hard to follow, it is also new to me, so good thought for meditation on this subject. See Jesus in the other.
    Steve, you say people get edgy, but I was very suprised at your reaction, as I was not at all wanting to hurt you, just expound more what you said, what it means: man over woman. You could also have reacted in the following way: Yes, that is what I mean to say, thanks for more explanation. As that was my intention. Maybe I should have started, I agree with you Steve, let me go on with man over woman, because that is hard to swallow, but if you see what Jesus instructed to those who want to be leaders, they should be servants.
    But why did you pick up what you did pick up?
    Please, the next time ask first what my intention is, before coming to the conclusion as you did. Then we can keep it all in peace

  74. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Hornets Nest or Pandora’s Box, once the lid is open it is impossible to close, save by the grace of God.

    It is the same with words spoken in anger, once out of the box they can never be put back.
    Only the grace and love of God can heal the wounds that come from a sharp tongue.


  75. foreverblessed says:

    Someone pointed me to a thing that happens when christians come together: Mostly at the end of the gathering, a conference, or a long day, people can get irritated by each other, She said, a spirit of irritation is going around.
    After she said that, I started to look at it, and yes, thoughts of irritation indeed do come up in me.
    And without realising I would have harbored the tought just a bit too long, and I indeed find the next christian is really irritating.
    But when I, as soon as an irritable thought enters my mind, capture it, and I say: No, I do not want to be irritated! And immediately start praising God instead, my mind is lifted up, the darkness goes away, and light is coming in.
    And I stay in the peace and love of God.
    The more we praise God, the less we arehaunted by these thoughts.

    But we are all still learning, love and peace to you all!!

  76. Michael J says:

    It is early Sunday morning,

    I have thought about what I am about to say since Saturday afternoon and almost commented last night late.
    Here goes.

    I went back to the beginning of the comments and read them all again …. some for the first time. I was deeply moved. I felt I needed to do something that I had NOT done when I began to address these crucial issues. I needed to listen to you all …. really listen! I had not done that, not really.

    I was more intent on dealing with the subject at hand than at listening to you all, first. I was wrong.

    Please accept my sincere apology. Michael

  77. foreverblessed says:

    Thank you all very very much!!!
    And Michael, I would like to know how the point you brought up would fit in here; the spouse who is not acting as to see Jesus in the partner, not even after two or 3 witnesses have pointed it out to him/her, should be called to a council of the church?
    with love

  78. Michael J says:


    I have typed in two different approaches to attempt to answer your question. This is my third. I’ll have to stop this soon or I will end up with carpal body. A bit of humor.

    Actually, I have never seen this practiced in a church. I have heard of this biblical approach to relationships discussed by others who practice the “reality of relationship” in their churches. Voddie Baucham in Texas and John MacArthur out west are examples that come to mind.

    Where to start? A forth attempt maybe. I want to give you a simple “yes” or “no” but I can’t. I wish I could. There are too many variables involved.

    If the leadership were truly Biblically qualified as in 1st Timothy 3, and if the assembly were taught the Biblical parameters of relationships and embraced them, and if the accepted normal operation of love and truth was functioning, and the issue being dealt with FIT the category for the 3-fold process, then the process would bring glory to God and reinforce the reality of Christ among us.

    When the normal up’s and down’s in relationships occur, other scriptures would apply. Such as Ephesians 4:2. Luke 17 deals with dealing with an offender. Many other passages.

    If the leadership and church are operating biblically, God will use many different avenues among the people of the church to speak to those who are wayward (as God leads). The Spirit of God will guide when the Matthew 18 setting is appropriate or not. It is a serious matter to follow through on that process. It is more serious to not follow through when it is necessary.

    Gossip and slander are not acceptable for Christians. Physical or verbal abuse must be addressed, also. Immorality is not acceptable in the assembly. Good leadership would be able to guide in such matters. Good leadership will not sit back and watch those they are responsible to protect be destroyed.

    So, foreverblessed, I think it depends on the leaders, the spiritual temperature of the church, the teaching the assembly has received, and the nature of the offense. There are probably more things to consider. Without these aspects being present,the councils end up being a “hanging”. Power based, not relationship based.

    Haven’t we all had enough of that in our lives. I know I have. I know my wife has also.

  79. poohpity says:

    A while ago in the church I belong to 2 people had been put out because of sexual immorality. One man was allowed back into the church later only to get in dutch again for another sexual issue. But you are right Michael I do not ever remember anyone even being spoken to for any other sin that has caused harm like gossip and slander which are just as destructive.

  80. poohpity says:

    I was also thinking about those who are big donors in the church and give with an agenda. If the church does not cater to them they withdraw their funds.

  81. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    That is true in any of lifes institutions, church, politics and the like.
    The paymaster always calls the tune, that is also why it is so difficult for some pastors and leaders to speak out against things in their church because they are being payed by the church.
    Never bight the hand that feeds you springs to mind but that is not God’s way.


  82. Lastinghope says:

    One simple question I haven’t seen asked here, WHY would husbands lobby so aggressively for this supposed “granted” authority?? Why not just lead in love as you were intending to anyway and not worry about the trump card you want for tie-breakers?? The reason wives keep revisiting the issue is that they watch their husbands leading their families into error that spills over in to other lives, and rather than being able to stand against it as they would be encouraged to with any other sin, they are told to be quiet, calm, peaceful, and accept it as God’s divine design and His will… Please! Men want this right because they want the final say – too bad, guys, Jesus gets that and He said not to assert your own rights. Women don’t want to rule exclusively, just don’t want to see you do it either. You weren’t built for it; Christ IS.

  83. poohpity says:

    Lastinghope, It seems where men assert such authority they seem to be very insecure in their position. Having the upper hand seems to help them to feel more manly when it really shows the opposite. It seems you talk from one who has experienced this sad misrepresentation of what the scripture implies.

  84. foreverblessed says:

    Lastinghope, my observation of churches and men, who keep pointing out to submission of the wife, is that they themselves have not completely submitted to Jesus.
    If they would have totally submitted to Jesus, they would have known His love, His comfort, His assurance. They would know who they are in Christ, his beloved child, and they would be less insecure. They would then give that on to their wives. And she would feel his love, his acception of her, his warmth, his reassurance, his willingness to help her, as Jesus helps him. There would be no worry of her submitting to him.

  85. Lastinghope says:

    I find it so interesting that those who propose that “hupotasso” used in Galatians 5 is somehow a super-hupotasso for the wife… it’s the same word in the verse which enjoins us all to submit to one another. It’s about sticking together, not quitting on each other, not about who gets to break ties or have the final word on every discussion. I love my husband dearly, always will, but I’m not going to bend scripture to stroke his ego to his own detriment.

  86. Michael J says:


    Traveling by car each morning to work, I was able to listen to a radio broadcast in which Haddon Robinson, Alice Matthews, and you would discuss whatever Haddon would bring to the table.

    One particular series dealt with the Luke 17 passage on forgiveness. I grin as I recall the way Haddon would ease you two into a particular scriptural consideration. The obvious devotion of all of you to God was shown. Your love for each other came through loud and clear. All three of you wanted only the truth from God. You each taught and were teachable as you interacted. Even though I think you knew at times you were being “set-up” by Haddon (in a good way).

    I remember how you and Alice would ask questions to Haddon. Much of where he was going in that passage, from the front of my radio, seemed to be new to you and Alice. Yet, you were diligent to ask and willing to have ears to hear. This teaching was new to me at the time, also. I stored that away and could not quite forget it. Later, I began to realize that the conclusions of that series were indeed what scripture and God actually had revealed. All I wanted was the truth from God. It had been there all the time. What I previously believed had prevented me from seeing the truth.

    I am grinning now as I fondly remember the kidding, the laughing, the intenseness of inquiry, and the way you all patterned the heart of God. You shared yourselves and you shared God. It affected me and I really appreciate you all for what you did . . . . and how you did the teaching and interacting with each other.

    I have wanted to tell you this for a long time. I was reminded of this again and thought it was about time. Thank you all….Haddon, Alice, and Mart!
    I’m still grinning. Michael

  87. davids says:


    I’m going to join Michael off-topic here with my own testimony. Not raised in a Christian household, I was still drawn to God, and felt the desire to bring my children to an English-speaking church here in Europe.

    Someone had left a few copies of Our Daily Bread on the reception desk. I picked one up and used it to start reflecting on God. Through that I learned what Jesus had done for me.

    In the six years since then, RBC ministries have been my daily resource for devotion and inspiration: ODB, Discover the Word, Day of Discovery, ATTQ, Stowell’s Strength series, etc. They have been a blessing to me and I’m sure to many others.

    Lately, I have enjoyed this blog. I don’t contribute often, but I come back to it almost every day for the insightful comments that many post here. Thank you very much for what you and RBC do.

  88. foreverblessed says:

    Todays “My Utmost for His Highest” says:
    Our Lord never insists on having authority over us. He never says, “You will submit to me.” No, He leaves us perfectly free to choose— so free, in fact, that we can spit in His face or we can put Him to death, as others have done; and yet He will never say a word. But once His life has been created in me through His redemption, I instantly recognize His right to absolute authority over me. It is a complete and effective domination, in which I acknowledge that “You are worthy, O Lord . . .” ( Revelation 4:11 ).

    Thought this was interesting, Pooh had already said this, but so does Oswald Chambers

    So how can a husband require submission from his wife, neither can the wife demand love from her husband. As soon as demand is in, love is gone.
    But we look for love.

  89. inor says:

    I’m a women and have really been struggling with this issue. I have a wonderful husband and we have a great balance in our relationship. But its our church and the attitudes of the men and leadership that I so struggle with. Churches that constantly preach that women must submit or in other words not have an opinion, just do as your told only produce a prideful and selfish husband. Its as though they want to oppress the women so they can feel better about themselves. I was really down today about this very subject and looked it up on this site. The Lord really blessed me with this article and gave me the hope and encouragement I needed. I’m not a second class citizen. Jesus cares about what I think and I can have an open and real discussion with Him about matters that trouble me. Thank you for this article, God blessed me with it today with the encouragement I so needed.

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