Text Size: Zoom In

In Our Story Who Plays Us?

In November of 1947, Harry S. Truman, the 33rd President of the United States lobbied for a United Nations resolution that would divide Palestine into Jewish and Arab States.

Truman later expressed his faith in the reborn state of Israel saying, “I believe it has a glorious future before it – not just [as] another sovereign nation, but as an embodiment of the great ideals of our civilization.”

Interestingly, one of Israel’s own spiritual leaders has since expressed a different view of his own people and their allies. The late rabbi Meir Kahane (1932-1990) even signaled his concern that friends of Israel could play into his people’s inclination to forget the Source of their ideals.

Rabbi Kahane, who also founded the Jewish Defense League in the United States, wrote, “For so long as the Jew has even one ally, he will be convinced …that his salvation came from that ally. It is only when he is alone – against all of his own efforts and frantic attempts – that he will, through no choice, be compelled to turn to G-d.”

If the rabbi’s comments are insightful, could what he said about Israel would also tell us something about ourselves? Who among us is not inclined to put our hope and trust in just about anything—other than the God who made us for Himself?

So here’s what I’m thinking that I’d like to hear you consider. It comes in two parts.

First, do you agree that one way of explaining “the chosen people” (even to the point of making sense of the current international turmoil in the Middle East) is that Israel has been chosen by God to play our role in the great drama of history? Does it make sense to you, as it does to me, that, in the ongoing story of the Old and New Testaments, the Jewish people are like real life actors who follow the script of human nature bumping into and interacting with their God–to give us a picture of ourselves? Does it make sense to you that, in their successes, we see the embodiment of the great ideals of the Kingdom of God? In their failures, do we see the consequences of turning our back on our God, to our loss and at the expense of all who depend on us?

Second, and even more importantly, do we see in this drama the way One of the “chosen people” was chosen from among the rest to be not only “the perfect Israelite” but also our “stand in” in the real drama of life? Can we see that Jesus of Nazareth was born of a Jewish mother (and Fathered by the Spirit of God) for the purpose of living and dying in our place– literally, and actually? (Romans 5:6; 2Cor 5:21)

Do both of those ideas together help us get perspective on President Truman’s “faith” in Israel, Rabbi Kahane’s realistic understanding of his own people, and the grace-based plan of God to offer us the opportunity to be embraced as sons and daughters by our ultimate Father in the merits of the our real-life “Stand-in”?

Vote on whether you think this post is something you'll be thinking about:
Vote This Post DownVote This Post Up (+74 rating, 77 votes)

58 Responses to “In Our Story Who Plays Us?”

  1. Regina says:

    Good Morning Fellow Bloggers!

    As the first person to comment on this blog topic, I feel like I need to share a Bible verse to start it off.

    I want to share one of my favorites (by the way, I haven’t read Mart’s comment on this topic yet):

    Hebrews 12:1-2 NIV
    1) Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2) Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    I LOVE Hebrews 12:1 – 2!

    A little off topic here (ok..maybe a lot), but I want to share a song that came to mind as I thought about the comments I read on the previous blog topic:

    Jesus Paid It All

    I hear the Savior say,
    “Thy strength indeed is small;
    Child of weakness, watch and pray,
    Find in Me thine all in all.”

    Jesus paid it all,
    All to Him I owe;
    Sin had left a crimson stain,
    He washed it white as snow.

    For nothing good have I
    Whereby Thy grace to claim;
    I’ll wash my garments white
    In the blood of Calv’ry’s Lamb.

    And now complete in Him,
    My robe, His righteousness,
    Close sheltered ’neath His side,
    I am divinely blest.

    Lord, now indeed I find
    Thy pow’r, and Thine alone,
    Can change the leper’s spots
    And melt the heart of stone.

    When from my dying bed
    My ransomed soul shall rise,
    “Jesus died my soul to save,”
    Shall rend the vaulted skies.

    And when before the throne
    I stand in Him complete,
    I’ll lay my trophies down,
    All down at Jesus’ feet.

    Also realize that my comment may not be the first after all, but that’s o.k. Just glad I had a chance to share what God put in my heart.


  2. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I was going for a walk on the beach this afternoon but found the topic had changed here and just had to say something.

    Mart, there is so much to this subject, more than the title suggests.
    What Harry S. Truman said was absolutely true, almost everything good about our civilization comes from Hebrew law and tradition. Also what Rabbi Kahane said is equally true, and Israel will stand alone in the very last days as all the nations will turn againts her, then and only then, will she turn to God and see Jesus for who He is, Messiah.

    In my own life just recently I have gone through a crisis, because my ex partner has moved, with almost no notice to me, to Scotland to live. He was my ally in many a sense and I never realised just how much I relied on him when the going got tough. By removing him God has shown me I now have only Jesus to rely on and cling to.
    Much the same as Israel today… If the USA withdrew it’s support of the state of Israel it would soon be overrun by it’s enemies and would have to cling to God.
    God created His People so He could show the world how and why Jesus would enter into this world and He set up all the rituals and sacrifices so that we would understand exactly what the Cross would mean when the Lamb of God was slain.
    Israel’s story is also the story of our own lives and walk with God and is set there in the Bible so that we can see the error in our ways and correct them.
    When Joseph revealed himself to his brothers he sent all the gentiles out of the room first, then he wept, then they new who he was. That is how it is going to be very soon when God removes His church from this world.

    “In Our Story Who Plays Us?”
    Most of the time it is me, but little by little “me” is learning that the Father can only see me through the blood of Jesus, so unless I am wrapped totally in Him I will not be seen.
    To die is to live!
    To be lifted up I must become low!
    To be a master I must first become a servant.
    To be a son of God then the Son of God has to live His life in me.


  3. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Now I will go for that walk!

  4. marma says:

    Hi, Mart. To the first part, yes! That seems easy since in the New Testament we are told that the Old gives us great examples of walking by faith as well as walking apart from God and the consequences of both. Reading Jeremiah and Ezekiel is like reading a newspaper today.

    Both men’s quotes are prophetic, aren’t they? I believe in the end times Israel will be in that state of abandonment (by the nations) until Christ returns, and that state will enable many to turn their hearts to God. I wonder and don’t know if Truman had in mind Romans 11:25-26 or even God’s grace and love toward Israel. He seems to be talking more of the humanistic ideals.

    Your second question requires some real thought (and some enlightenment by the Holy Spirit) as I’m not sure what the connection is to the first question. I’ll be thinking about that!

  5. tandgmartin says:

    Mart: timely topic indeed.

    Regina: Thanks for posting that beautiful hymn.

  6. bozo says:

    Mart, what a delightful dilemma you pose. It has never occurred to me to compare the Jewish state of affairs with the struggles of everyday Christians. Yes it would seem to me that Israel plays the part of stubborn child of God doing everything possible to put off acknowledging God as their Source. I can see their self reliance in a different light now.

    In a certain sense they have been “successful” by avoiding annihilation through self reliant military action. I had always thought that their success could be ascribed to a merciful God semi-rewarding their efforts because of their continual practice of their precursor religion. I never thought that they would convert to Christianity any time soon.

    When I did think of the Mid-East problems I couldn’t imagine what circumstances would bring about their conversion to Christianity. This problem I always left up to God to resolve since it was beyond my comprehension.

    No, I don’t see the Jewish people as a stand-in for Jesus Christ. Jesus embodied the virtue humility. The Jewish state and people currently do not seem to have even a nodding relationship with humility. I don’t believe that the Jewish state/people are to die in our place at Armageddon. I think Christians will be shoulder to shoulder with Jewish Christians at Armageddon.

    Yes, I’m certain God has a plan but trying to think of it is like trying to think of how high up is. A more spiritual response from me is going to require a whole lot more thought on my part. I would go for a walk but I would never come back because the problem and its resolution are beyond my wee brain.

    I see that my response is very shallow, that’s me!

  7. SFDBWV says:

    Mart, There are so many subjects in your topic, I am not sure where to begin and I certainly know my answers to the questions will take far more space than permitted by any reason to be written here.

    Deut 7:6 “For you are a people sacred to the Lord, your God, who has chosen you from all the nations on the face of the earth to be a people peculiarly His own.”

    Ps 135:4 “For the Lord has chosen Jacob unto Himself, and,Israel for His peculiar treasure.”

    1 Peter 2:9 “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood,an holy nation, a peculiar people;”


    In the study of scripture, it has become very clear to me that the mystery of scripture is its ability to be actual history, future events, prophesy played out by the lives of actual people, for the purpose of the enlightenment of future readers as well as being actual events of peoples lives.

    Each story, each persons existence, being layered by the author of all events, for His purpose and design.

    Layered because there are multi purposed.

    So in part, my short answer to the first part of your questions is that…yes, the Jew or the “chosen” people of the OT were singled out to live an existence as an example to all mankind..past..present ..and future.

    Yet they are also the people, throughout their existance, is the timeline of which all of is mankind mapped out. As well as having an huge part to play in the end of the age.

    One great lesson learned, is that departing from the will of God results in disaster.

    One great lesson learned that the only solid rock one can rely on is the foundation of our faith..God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit….Jesus of Nazareth….All else will at some time or another fail us.

    I want to leave the second part or second question to a seperate comment post. As I am certain to have more to say concerning the first question..


  8. poohpity says:

    I do see the parallels in Israel’s walk with God and mine. Many I do not like to admit but they are there. The captivity in Egypt with my substance abuse. Learning to trust fully on God in the desert for only His provision but all the while grumbling that His provision wasn’t good enough. Demanding a King rather than the Lord to be their leader is like how I have trusted idols in my life for security rather than God. The people that have been sent to me to tell me that God wants to have a personal relationship with me like the prophets sent to Israel to guide them back to God repeatedly from going their own way.

    Then the acceptance of the person of Jesus Christ that stood in for me to take the punishment for my wrong doings. Then seeing how that little bitty seemingly small nation standing still with the giants around them. It is all amazing that something that seems so weak is strong because of the Lord.

    The many times I have said that I would never be like Israel in turning their back on the Lord after witnessing so many miracles but yet at times I do. Can I see myself in Israel’s history and current events, yes I can. Sometimes I really do not like what I see until I go back to the Cross and see how much the Lord loves not only me but the all the peoples of the earth no matter what sin state they are in. I am so glad nobody else has had to live my life but I am so thankful that Jesus knowing all that we go through took a stand in our place before God.

  9. marma says:

    poohpity: I like your very personal response–you draw some very good parallels that I see in my life, too. The desert experience of unbelief, the living water when one is in the Word, trusting in and walking with the Lord, and yes, the idols–trusting any thing else but the Lord and the poverty it brings spiritually and often financially, as well as other types of ruin.

    And the Grace! God judges Israel, punishes Israel, but never gives up and sent a redeemer through Israel.

  10. rivergal says:

    The relationship to Israel as the adopted son (Rom 9:4), treated as God’s firstborn (Ex 4:22), and Jesus as the perfect son of Israel was something I hadn’t contemplated very deeply before I read Mart’s post. After considering it for awhile, I thought of when someone steps into a role in a movie, and we say “so and so IS that character,” as if anyone else playing the part is incomplete, insufficient, and a false protrayal. Jesus WAS Israel as she should have been. In perfection, He walked out Michah 6:8 and was the light to the nations that Israel couldn’t be.

    What is truly wonderful is that Jesus didn’t just come to show us the right way to BE Israel. Through His life He WAS the way, the truth and the life. He didn’t come to enter the scene, show us where we messed up and take off. He came not to just show us life as it should be lived, but also that we might have life, abundant life (Jn 10:10).

    Moreover, we get to become Christ’s understudies, and have His Spirit teaching us, coaching us, leading us, strengthening us. Yes, too often I fall and fail, and have to repent, relearn, return. But the Spirit is faithful, as the Son was. I love when C.S. Lewis writes about us becoming “little Christs”. Amen, and by God’s grace, may it be so!

    In the past I’ve often thought about (and rightly should) how Jesus’ death saves me, but I hadn’t truly considered in much depth that His life saves me as well (Rom 5:10). That, as they say, is “heavy” and something I need to continue meditating on and studying.

  11. foreverblessed says:

    “Who among us is not inclined to put our hope and trust in just about anything—other than the God who made us for Himself?”
    A personal note, when the church I grew up in fell from under my feet, I really did fall. I see that God had to take it away, so I would rely on Him solely. I didn’t know I was more into a church thing then a really personal relation with Him.
    I remember that when I read the verse:where Jesus said: pointing to me as it were:
    Here are my mother and my brother and sister, Matthew 12:49
    I had to cry, He really wants to be that.

    Yes it is true, Bob, we lose to gain Jesus!
    Thanks for the song, I am singing more these days, it is as if the truth that is in the song goes deeper, and as if the atmosphere around me gets clearer.

  12. poohpity says:

    I believe that Israel was a chosen nation of people with whom God imparted His teaching and through them provided salvation to the rest of the earth. Jesus being God’s ONLY son and through Him we were adopted into a new family not by flesh but by Spirit which are now also called by His name. I do not believe that Jesus was like Israel because Jesus followed all the Law and was Himself a Jew (Israelite). Micah 6:8 was the will of God for His people, to be fair and just and merciful and walk humbly with God. I do not know if I misunderstood what you wrote, rivergal. My reply is not in any way meant to offend but to ask for clarification.

  13. rivergal says:

    poohpity, what I intended to communicate was not that Israel as being the same as Jesus, who is the only begotten of the Father. That being said, in Romans 9:4 Paul states regarding the people of Israel that “theirs the adoption as sons”. In Exodus God says of Israel that it is “his firstborn”. They had a special relationship, one of adoption and attributed (not natural) sonship. Israel received promises (also Rom. 9:4) and covenants.

    The complete and perfect fulfillment of both the promises of Abraham and the covenant of the law through Moses are found in Christ, not through Israel. Paul in Galatians 3:16 states that the promises to Abraham’s seed were to Christ. Christ Himself says He came to “fulfill the law” (Mat. 5:17, Luke 24:44).

    My observations were that Jesus was the only “true son of Israel” in that He, as the Last Adam, fulfilled the law and covenants through His life and death. Further, as we trust in Him, by His Spirit we are conformed to His image. This I’m sure is what Lewis meant by calling us “little Christs,” which can be inferred I think by the use of the diminutive. We are not Christ, but images of Him, living epistles of His life, given for us, and given to us. “In Him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28a).

    I hope this clarifies things for you.

  14. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I know this has already been said by Deb, but Israel is just like us, we were chosen before we were born to be His.
    We were reborn and led out of captivity through the Red Sea of baptism into a new life.
    Most of us have wandered through the wilderness for many years only to enter a promised land that God has told us to claim little by little and to destroy all the “foreign” tribes.
    Like Israel we make agreements with the “foreign tribes” in our lives, marry their women and suffer the consequences many years later.
    One of Israels biggest mistakes was when they wanted a king and be like other nations. You can almost feel the hurt in God’s response as He is their King.
    There should only be one King on our throne.
    As has been said, Jesus was the second and last Adam. He brought new perfect blood into the world and could have had many sinless children and created a whole new population to fill the earth.
    We would have all had to have been wiped away as with Noah, but God chose to do it another way, Jesus, as Mart says, literally took our place and took our punnishment of death.
    We still have to die, to self, and put the King of Kings on the throne of our lives, but our sacrifice of will is just a mere token of what Jesus did for us.
    God’s age of grace is nearing it’s end and the days of Noah and the “wipeout” of man will begin, but God has achieved His goal of a world full of sinless people because one man, an Israelite came from God to save us.


  15. Mart De Haan says:

    Bob (NC), yes, you’re right all who are of Israel nationally are not the true “Israel of God” as Paul clarifies in Romans 9:6.

    The idea that I was trying to develop in the post does need to be qualified and clarified, even as the group has been doing.

    Prior to Israel, Adam and Eve” played “us” in the great drama of God.

    What I was trying to do was to develop the idea of “the chosen” as being “one for all” in God’s purpose. In the least sense their “events” provided “examples” for us (similar, I think, to what Paul meant in 1Cor 10:11). In the ultimate and perfect sense (as others have also explained) Christ was the perfect One who actually did live, die, and rise, in our place. In lesser ways Israel is also like an example to us of how God, in his great love, reaches out to us, and pursues us in grace.

    As with so many things we talk about together, an idea needs to always be tested to see to what extent it does or does not line up with Scripture. On that basis it is a starter idea that needs to be clarified and qualified…which is one reason I love to be able to suggest an idea and then see it tested and developed (or cut back to size) by “my friends” :-)….

  16. SFDBWV says:

    What I understand in my heart and mind I am having difficulty transfering it to words….

    Sometime back this winter I printed off a story from Arutz Sheva an Israel national news service, titled is “Gog Gathering Steam”, written by Tamar Yonah.

    It starts of by saying “It is not so much a stretch of the imagination anymore to invision living in the time of the great battle of Gog and Magog…” It goes on quoting Ezekiel 38 and 39.

    It is realy an exciting read, as it compares todays world government and “new world order” to the same attitude as of the people of the Tower of Babel. Mankind attempting to become the master of his own destiny.

    It continues to show how modern mankind has made laws that re-define morality. Even to the point of covering up evil with terms such as political correctness and giving government approval of it.

    The article has a picture of the Eruopian Parliament building in Strasburg Germany and its striking similarity to an artists rendition of the Tower of Babel.

    The article states that a speach from the EU was interpeted into 70 different languages…In the end of days, the nations of the world will come against Israel under Gog, that the *Gematria* or numerical value of the Hebrew letters of the words Gog and Magog = 70.

    The article goes on to name political leaders all over the world, and quotes a Dr Zbigniew Brzezinski, whom she says is a top Obama advisor, as giving a speech at Chatham House (The Royal Institute of International affairs); In the speech he states that all the nations agree in pushing Israel to give up Jerusalem, and establish a Palestinian state.

    What strikes me about this article is that it is not some Christian *EndTimes* author writing a book concerning the coming return of Christ, but a news article from an Israelite living in Israel today…

    Showing a modern political atmosphere described by the Prophets of scripture thousands of years ago, meant to be understood today.

    As one reads scripture concerning the coming political world scene…Israel has no ally.

    How can that be? Concerning the deep religious relationship between American Christians and Israel.

    For me this is easy to understand. Look at the politics of America, look deeper into the motives behind the media and its influence on Americans.

    But look deeper still into scripture…There is a time coming soon that is called the *snatching away*, Raptos in the Greek, and what we call the Rapture of the Church.

    A line is being drawn, ever more clearly than ever. As in the desert of Sinai, thoes who stand with the Lord (Christ) on one side all the others to the other….Salvation and life await one, total destruction await the other.

    Look up for our time here is coming to a close, be ready, and if any of you out here have not yet ask Jesus Christ to be the Lord of your life, I beg you not to wait another second.


  17. refump says:

    The Rabbi Kahane quote that Mart used really jumped out at me. Having been through & going through a lot of various trials in my life like I’m sure most if not all of you have/are going through & having a relatively calm 2 week period I was contemplating the other day how nice this has been but also wondering when the next shoe was going to drop & how much more of this I will be able to take. I was thinking about how all these trials had brought me to a deeper trust in God but at the same time my desire was not to have to go through any more trials. That thought led me to think that I really have not come to a true trust in God. I should not be afraid of what the future & it’s trials will bring if my trust is truly in God should I? I know in my head that stripping away everything else will bring us to a total trust in God but why, in my heart, do I desire to have a trialless & pain free life in which my trust is in myself? I get jealous of those around me that appear to have it “all going on”. Worldly blessings seem to camp at their doorstep. I wonder how they are able to develop their trust in God when no difficulties seem to come their way. How can someone with a big bank account have a true trust in God for their all in all? Sometimes, as children of God we have a sense of entitlement that leads to anger & bitterness when life is not “easy”. We fail to see the “big” picture of what God desires for us. Isn’t God’s desire for us to not be “worldly comfortable” but to be “Godly comfortable” which will involve being “worldly uncomfortable”.

  18. SFDBWV says:

    Too often Christians, or thoes who read the Christian Bible, believe it to be complete… But it is has unwritten pages.

    The Book of Acts began with the Great Commission and the Ascention….It is not finished.

    We still, to this hour live in the pages of the Book of Acts, we are living out the actions of Disciples for Christ. Our story may not be found exactly already writen but our story has very clear similarities to events already recorded from Genesis to the first 3 chapters of Revelation.

    Because humankind is all one, we are all alike in our behavior.

    But in the annals of eterity, our personal story is written. Lived by us, our struggles, our trials, our successes and our failures.

    This is our legacy, how Christ changed us and what we did with our free gift of salvation.

    Who plays us? We play us…


  19. marma says:

    Mart, thanks for clarifying. I enjoy the “testing” process that your blog encourages. I think, though, that sometimes we mistake the metaphor for the literal and the reverse. Israel is a kind of living breathing metaphor for us to observe, learn from, and glorify God for all that he has done and will do through them.

    Steve–One can’t help but see things on the horizon. Christ is building his church, and we see evidence of the seasons changing, too, for Israel. Pretty exciting and sobering.

  20. poohpity says:

    refump, We all struggle with different areas but we do struggle. I think that sometimes we believe that mammon is a sign of God’s blessing but it is not. I think it is beneficial to be content no matter how much we have or how little. I think you are so right and it says in the bible that it is easy to trust in worldly wealth rather than God to supply all our needs. That so fits with this topic Israel trusts so much in it’s military strength when it is God who shields her. Because some do not mention their struggles does not mean that they do not exist. Hang on to the Lord and watch Him do what He does best and turns things around for good. I understand how hard it is to trust sometimes when things look so bleak. You will be in my prayers and sending a hug your way.

  21. poohpity says:

    I have told you all this so that you may have “peace in me”. Here on earth you will have “many” trials and sorrows. But take heart, because I have overcome the world. Love Jesus

    ~ John 16:33, NLT

  22. Bob in Cornwall England says:


    Every nation is going to turn on Jerusalem even the USA.
    It is hard to believe now but I was only talking to a friend today who left a church for not teaching the bible and also they did not believe in the rapture.
    But it is so clear in scripture that Jesus comes as a thief in the night for His people and then comes as a warrior seen by the whole world when Jerusalem is about to fall.
    The USA without God’s people in it would soon turn it’s military might against Israel as there would be no “salt” to temper the bitterness and hate.
    It does not take much imagination in the wake of the “credit crunch” to see how quickly events could sway opinion against Israel.


  23. Bob in Cornwall England says:


    Strasbourg is in France, although it was once German but it is west of the Rhine so is technically a natural part of France.
    I think there have been a few wars over the Alsas? region.

  24. SFDBWV says:

    Thanks Bob, Yes several wars fought over the Alsas including the *War to end all wars*…Satan is always trying to push…a false interpetation of scripture and his agenda.

    But always playing right into the hands of God’s plans.


  25. SFDBWV says:

    In part of expressing my views concerning Marts second topic comments,

    Luke gives the geneology of the line of Christ from Adam to Jesus through Mary’s linage..

    Unquestionably Mary, a virgin, was supernaturaly impregnated by the Holy Spirit.

    *Chosen* from before time began, to be the mother of the Christ.

    The character of Mary, being totaly obedient and answering God’s call without hesitation.

    The proper mother, to be the caregiver of her infant child, nurturing Him into adulthood.

    Many of us whether woman or man can take many lessons from Her, but there is only one Virgin Mary.

    From the Garden to the cross, all throughout scripture, are examples of Christ, which is why it is written that the volume of the *Book* is written of *Him*.

    In Genesis we read of the mysterious Melchizedek, a Christ like person, we also read of the person of Isaak whom was to be sacrificed on the very spot Jesus was crucified….Point being, that before there were a people called the Jew, the person of Christ was being shown, though He already was alive and existed as a part of the Triune Spirit of God.

    When God set up the complex order of worship and the law through Moses, the entire cerimonies and actions surrounding the matter of worship were examples of Christ….He embodied all of these rituals and fulfilled all of their laws.

    Which makes Him much more than the perfect Israelite, He is the perfect man.

    Under God’s design of animal sacrifice within the Law of Moses….The perfect sacrifice was always the lamb without fault.

    So for the matter of discussion Jesus of Nazareth, born to the Virgin, and found without fault, is the perfect scape goat and sacrifice for the atonement of sin.

    Jesus of Nazareth a Jew because of His mother, but above race because of His Father.

    Yet there is more, The people of the earth had forgotten God, when they left the Tower of Babel and spread all around the world, they took with them the stories of creation and of the flood, and of a savior child….The stories all mixed up and specialized as to speak to the different people they were told to.

    They began to worship amiss, not knowing the one true God….So God created a *Chosen* people through whom He would not only reveal His true nature, being and desires, but through which He would also bring about the promised Savior….These *chosen* people being the Israelite or the Jew whichever you choose to call them.

    Jesus of Nazareth being the embodyment of Who His Father is….

    More than an example of God’s nature, also our ssacrifice, scape goat, or as Mart prefered to say…stand in.


  26. SFDBWV says:

    In speaking as to the Israelite’s place in God’s world wide plan, I have to summerize somewhat.

    Fallen man has now spread all around the world as is God’s desire; But they are lost from Him in that they don’t know Him.

    So God creates a people through which the truth of creation and His plans for all of mankind can be exposed. As well as His very nature.

    God also takes the very best of these chosen people and uses Him to be the bridge through which mankind can be reunited with Him.

    God places all of the sins of all people past, present and future and places them on this perfect man and then allows for Him to be killed in the place of all people everywhere.

    God now creates a people who is neither Jew nor Non-Jew, but known only as the followers of this perfect man. A new people, a new nation, a peculiar people.

    All the world is invited to join these followers of the perfect man, and in so doing by their own choosing, be forgiven for all their faults, recreated, born anew, and recociled to God.

    All the world includes the other chosen people, but God had made a great many promises to the fathers of the Israelite’s. So He, God, is not finished with these people yet. Through them, all of the timetables of Gods plans are reflected. Because of God’s promises, there will be 144,000 Jews spared from the destruction of the time of Jacobs troubles…the Tribulation. They will finally be allowed to recognize their Messiah as Jesus of Nazareth, and following His return they as a nation will be rescued from the nations of the world by the Hand of God. Properly established as the only nation on earth that God himself established and set its boundries.

    I knew this would get long and wordy, sorry.


  27. poohpity says:

    Mart, I have always found that God’s pursuit of Israel the many turns that she has taken away from God, yet God. He pursued her by any means necessary to bring her back to Himself. If anyone ever feels that God will not go after His lost sheep needs to really study the OT and the final “Good News” that is found in the NT which completes the atonement for the wayward. It always gives me so much hope that once your His, God will never give up on you.

  28. davids says:

    We need to make a distinction between the Israelites/Kews of the Old Testament and the Jewish Israelis of today. Many Christians act as though today’s Israel can do no wrong.

    In the Old Testament we can take many lessons about people struggling with the faith, and with God’s will. However, we all take different paths, and to draw a comparison between Israel’s journey and the Christian journey is maybe taking it a bit too far.

    In the New Testament it is clear. By the time Jesus walked the earth, the Jewish leadership was corrupt. The charge of the apostles was to share the Good News with the Jews, and that remains our charge to this day.

    There is much racism in modern Israel. Rabbi Kahane was even forbidden from running for the Israeli Knesset (congress) due to racism. Israel’s error is not in placing too much faith in their allies, but in placing too much faith in their weapons. As Christians, we should counsel that peace is God’s will.

  29. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    David, “Israel’s error is not in placing too much faith in their allies, but in placing too much faith in their weapons.”
    That is so true, that is why, during the tribulation, God is going to destroy the first wave of attack on Jerusalem by the Kings of the North & South without Israel firing one weapon just to prove to them that He is still God.

    Thanks for your wonderful explanations, all things known but so wonderfully expressed.
    Thanks for taking the time in your hectic life to help us see what God has done for us.
    Have a blessed day!


  30. SFDBWV says:

    This subject, opens up possibilities of political debate.

    However ever mindful that this is a world wide blog and a very sensitive subject in the Mid Easter populations.

    Not wanting to make matters difficult for our Christian friends who are in Muslim countries or neighborhoods. I do not wish to debate the pros and cons of politics.

    I will only say that any person, no matter their nationality, may have heard of Christ or Christianity, but we professing Christians, may be the only example of both they ever see.

    Others will see in our actions and attitudes our best or worst examples of Christ….it will be our choice to present either.

    I will remember that God has a special purpose for Israel, And that God has a special purpose for Christians. That God has a desire for all mankind to shake off the chains of hate…no matter who you are or where you call home.

    There could not be any two things in all of creation more of opposites than Love and Hate.

    Love fulfills us and satisfies us, while hate is never satisfied.

    Love will heal, while hate only rubs salt into its own wounds.

    How do we cleanse religious, racial, political, or even generational hatred from amongst us?….Is it even possible?

    Once again it begins with me….I can not be responsible for the actions or attitudes of another. Only for myself.

    Jesus said to forgive a brother, each time they ask….So I will extend my hand in friendship and love to all, all the while being wise as serpents and harmless as doves….And remembering His instruction and warnings to the twelve He sent out (Matthew 10:5).


  31. foreverblessed says:

    I agree with you Steve, the best part is that we show who Jesus is to the people around us.
    1 Thessalonians 5 is also good to read, what to do about the final days, which do excist since Paul wrote this.

    But about the interpretation of prophecies:
    1 Kor 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
    Maybe it is a little different then what we assume the bible does say.
    Like Jacob’s trouble, Jacob is not only the Jews in Israel, but also the lost tribes, the 10 nothern tribes of which we lost track. But God knows who they are. (I find it hard to believe that US would attack Israel, maybe they will not, maybe they are part of Jacob too, and will have a part in Jacob’s trouble). Also Revelation 7:5-8 Judah, Levi and Benjamin are part of who we now call Jews. But there are many more names mentioned, God knows who they are. So we might miss a few things here and there. God will give light on these prophecies, in due time.

  32. foreverblessed says:

    Getting of-topic now
    About Israel, and who they are.
    Like the tribe of Dan. There is a prophecy about him in Genesis 49:17:
    Dan will be a serpent by the roadside, a viper along the path, that bites the horse’s heels so that its rider tumbles backward.
    Dan being a serpent by the roadside, could be interpreted as: on the way they moved from Assyria, who took them captive (2 Kings 17), from there they traveled up northwards, the river Djenpr, the river Donau, the country Danmark, (mark of Dan), and from there who knows where did they go too. This is all side information, nothing that pertains to our spiritual growth, our love in Christ, only to say, that there are many things God knows, and we do partly know.

  33. foreverblessed says:

    Another one:
    the rapture, I would like to believe that we are taken up before all the troubles come, but when I read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 the context of these bible verses is: that we who are still alive when Jesus will return will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep v15. And so it means that at the last trump v16, we will be taken up, when Christ returns. When is that last trump, Revelation 11. I do not know, only that in Revelation it is often said: this calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints. Rev 14:12.
    Maybe, instead of us being taken up, we will have to flee, like the disciples had to flee Jerusalem when it was attacked by the Romand 70 AD. See also Matthew 24:15-20
    But this we know, that we follow Jesus, He walks in front of us, and we will follow, He knows, He equips us, and give us strength to do what is needed.

  34. saled says:

    It does make sense to me that God has chosen Israel to play our part in the drama of history. Lately I’ve been thinking about the manna in the wilderness and how God told the Israelites to gather only enough for the one day. In a comment above refump asks how someone with a big bank account can ever depend on God. It’s a mystery to me also why some of us are so blessed with material things and others of us depend on the manna. Within myself, I have this desire to own the future, to know that there will be enough food, fuel, medical care etc. With me, it even goes to the point that I want a guarantee that next summer will be as nice as this one! No kidding, I find myself wanting more than this perfect summer that I have been given this year; I want the same next year also. I am reminded that Jesus said, “Abide in me.” He means be at home in him. Put all your stock in him. I need the manna experience to be reminded of this.

    So often we think about the fact that Jesus died for us. The idea that he lived (lives) for us is more difficult for me to conceive. Something to do with the mystery in Colossians 1:27 that mentions “Christ in us, hope of glory.” I hope he is playing my role. He is my only hope of glory.

  35. poohpity says:

    Amen saled!

  36. poohpity says:

    It would seem if we do not look at the Israelite’s and learn from their mistakes and successes with the Lord, then we will repeat the same errors as history has shown us. If we do not look inside and learn from the mistakes that the Lord saw fit to have those who wrote the bible convey to us, what good is it to read it. When the search for our own righteousness trumps putting the Lord first and do good then our attempts will fail.

    “In Our Story Who Plays Us?” All mankind repeats the mistakes we are given to learn from but who is listening and learning? This is not about politics it is about seeing ourselves in the pages of the bible and learning from the mistakes of the past. Then understanding that we are not able to live the perfect way but we have a “stand in” or a “helper” to run this race of life if we keep our focus on the right person, who is not us, but is in fact the author of all life and our faith, Jesus Christ. Then we are free to play our own role because we trust in our “Stand In” for our punishment and the glory goes to the ONE who deserves it and it is certainly not us.

    Having that “stand in” give us the freedom to do GOOD, not argue, self gratification, self righteousness and all the other selves.

  37. SFDBWV says:

    foreverblessed, If you permit me I would like to explain what I know of as the *Rapture*

    Begining in reverse, if you read Revelation 4:1 a door is opened in heaven and a voice as it were a trumpet, says “come up hither”….This is the moment of the rapture.

    In Thess 4:15,16,17…with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God, all followers of Christ dead or alive are taken up to be with the Lord *forever*.

    Go all the way back to Daniel 7:13 “…One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, Again in Matthew 25 we read of the marriage feast and at Matt 25:12 the door is shut….reading on past this event and discussion we come to Matthew 26:64 whereby we read of the Son of man, sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven…

    Back again to Revelation 1:7 behold he cometh with clouds….Hebrews 12:1…”a cloud of witness..” We are thoes clouds of glory that come with Him….

    But read on to Revelation 19:7 at this time is the marriage of the Lamb, followed by the return of Christ Rev 19:11 and in vrs:14 we are again shown coming with Him and vrs:16 He is identified as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the triumphant return of Christ, with his army of heaven…We already transformed by the wedding supper of the Lamb.

    Before Jesus returns we are already with Him, because before the tribulation we are taken up to be with Him forever. 1 Thess 5:9 “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain Salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

    I have more but I do not wish to get too long…I hope this helps you to understand.


  38. foreverblessed says:

    Thank you Steve, it is good to (sometimes) converse about these things, thanks for the explanation, but if we would be taken up before the tribulation, why would Jesus tell us to flee in Matthew 24:15-20, He even gives the circumstances when to flee.
    The following could also be scriptural:
    we flee when these things happen which Jesus tells us about in Matthew 24, we are protected from the tribulation, then at the last trump we will be taken up into the air, the rapture to meet the Lord, at the last trump, which is pretty late in all events that will take place before that, if you see what I mean.
    All these verses you qouted could still be true if seen in that light.
    The rapture meaning: we are taken up to meet the Lord, not to escape tribulation.
    I just tell these things in case we will miss the point of fleeing, when we are waiting for the rapture.

    Just a thought, not to argue, thanks for staying so polite, I would like to keep it that way. It is not a major matter, the Major is that Jesus “plays us”, that we train ourselves to hear His voice in my life.

  39. Hisgirl4life says:

    Good morning all…joining in the discussion a bit late to shed some of the scriptures and thoughts God has placed upon my heart.

    Foreverblessed, I noticed you quoted Matt. 24 in discussion of the rapture. It’s my belief that the entire beginning of chapter 24 speaks of the signs of the the end of the age as it talks of “nation rising against nation…famines and earthquakes in various places…persecution and hatred of nations.” It also speaks of false Christs and prophets rising up and yes, fleeing to escape the wickedness. These are all associated with end times, however, verse 29 turns to the rapture: “Immediately after the distress of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.” Later the chapter gives reference again to two men in verse 40 who are in the field; “one will be taken and the other left” indicated believers in Christ and non-believers.” For me, that indicates and coincides with the significance and urgency of Jesus’ words, “Go, and make deciples of all nations.” Thanks for allowing me to share.

  40. Hisgirl4life says:

    So many great comments and things to think upon. Steve, loved your comments on love and hate…so relevant for the end times I believe we are in. Now, for some thoughts on Mart’s topic of.

    This is a facinating topic, as there is so much within the Bible regarding Israel…the promised land. Here’s some more nuggets to think about.

    In Gen. 32:28, Jacob wrestled with God face to face. God spoke to Jacob saying, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel.”

    Isaiah 41:8-9 has much to say about Israel, Jacob, the chosen descendants of Abraham…”I took you from the ends of the earth, from the farthest corners I called you.” Jesus is referred to as “the LORD, your redeemer, The Holy One of Israel.”

    Again in Isaiah 43:15 Jesus said, “I am the LORD, your Holy One, Israel’s Creator, your King” and extends his message in Isaiah 44:6: “I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

    When you continue on in Isaiah, you can read about how God has “swept away your (Israel’s) offenses like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist” (Isaiah 45:21-22) (indicated the sacrifice of Christ) and he commands us to “return to me, for I have redeemed you.” But Israel (like each of us) was stubborn, “You have neither heard nor understood; from of old your ear has not been open.” (Isaiah 48:8)

    I believe God’s plan was for Israel to be a nation to be the light for Gentiles and Jews (Is. 49:6), to “proclaim God’s message of salvation to the world.” This plan became flawed by human nature, rooted in politcal gain, power, idolatry, sin. It is depicted today all around us…and we can easily fill our name in the examples given as referenced “O Israel.”

    Steve gave a beautiful reference to PEACE in his comment. Perhaps one of the most personally convicting verses for me within the Bible is Isaiah 48:17-18. “I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go. If only you had paid attention to my commands, your peace would have been like a river, your righteousness like the waves of the sea.”

    The restoration of Israel is spoke about in Isaiah 49:8-10 and speaks of captives, those living in darkness; either because of choice or because they have not had the opportunity to hear of the message of salvation.

    How will others know about Christ, if they do not experience His love within us? How will others hear the message of salvation if there are no feet and hands willing to make the sacrifice of self to deliver the message? I’m reminded of the verse with the Bible (maybe one of you remembers the reference) How beautiful the hands and feet of those who carry the message of Christ.

    We each have a rebellious bent, a sin-stained heart which is deserving of death. The old-testament promise of salvation as God has spoken through the nation of Israel is the same today. We can reject it…go our own way, or we can turn and cry out to God to forgive our waywardness, our sin. Either choice we make, Christ will return, whether we are ready or not. The question remains…will He find our hearts faithful to Him?

  41. Hisgirl4life says:

    Isn’t it refreshing and comforting to know God’s timing is perfect and He is in control of everything? We would sure mess things up for sure!

  42. poohpity says:

    Romans 10:15, And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” Isaiah 52:7, How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news,
    who proclaim peace,
    who bring good tidings,
    who proclaim salvation,
    who say to Zion,
    “Your God reigns!”

  43. poohpity says:

    I have come to the conclusion how hard it is to really like inside at one’s heart to identify the areas God is still working on in us. To identify with the failures of Israel would mean admitting we are not perfect because it is easy to look at the successes and claim those. It seems we would rather say I would never act like that when in reality Christ knows every motive behind every action we take and yet forgives. It seems like when you are talking to a child and ask did you take that and he blames someone else either real or imagined but his eyes turn away to something else rather than admit his wrong which is easier in the long run.

  44. foreverblessed says:

    Thanks all, I like that: planmillenialist, God the Planner!
    God is our Player, this is from the devotional God calling of july 25, thought is was fitting:
    “I am your Lord. Lord of your lives, Controller of your days, your present and your future. Leave all plans to Me. Only act as I bid you…”
    A man’s heart deviseth his way; but the Lord directeth his steps. Proverbs 16:9

  45. Hisgirl4life says:

    Thank you, Deb, for the reference! Love that verse! Isn’t that verse also referenced within the New Testament too? I know I made some notations near it in my Bible, and Isaiah is referenced throughout the Bible.

    Yes, I agree with you also that admitting faults and sin seems more difficult than pointing the blame at others or situations and not taking accountabilty for our own sin. That is not the example Christ gave for us to follow. He is our perfect example we should strive to become more like. And, even when we fail, praise God, He lovingly accepts us as “prodigal sons” (and daughters) and wraps His loving arms around us. Isn’t it a blessing to know there is someone who loves us completely, as we are, unconditionally?

  46. poohpity says:

    The first blame Genesis 3:12, “The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.” Genesis 3:13 the second blame, “Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” We have good teachers on blame, LOL. We still haven’t learned that one. :-)

  47. poohpity says:

    Then Jesus, I know you will do wrong so I will pay the price for you, I will “Stand In” your place. Totally Amazing.

  48. poohpity says:

    I was thinking IMHO I consider Marines as really tough but it is beautiful to hear your need for a savior with out trying to control but kneeling at the foot of the cross. It reminds me of David who’s heart even, though he was in the military, was a man after God’s own heart. He was humbled at the mention of God. Oohrah!!

  49. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,

    Off topic here… I have a prayer request. Please pray for me regarding my student loan issues. I need to submit paperwork in order to submit my payments electronically, and I’ve had horrible issues with my lender regarding mailed paperwork in the past (while typing this prayer request, the Lord gave me the idea of faxing the document to my lender as well). They tend to lose documents that are mailed to them, and they don’t seem to care about their borrowers (customers).

    Thank you all for your prayers. Will keep you posted regarding my student loan issue. I won’t be able to participate in the blog for awhile due to time constraints. Will miss you all.

    Love & Blessings,

  50. foreverblessed says:

    Regina, I’l be praying for you!
    Giving the blame to Israel, but what about the churches?
    Is God playing us, is the Holy Spirit blowing through our churches.
    It often seems to be run by man, statutes, regulations, tithing as a means of income. Where is the free flowing reign of God through the Holy Spirit?
    And I can say that about the churhes, but how is it in my own life?
    I always liked the example of Corrie ten Boom,
    She would nog ask for money for her projects, and yet received enough. She would travel as God commanded her, she would go to Schiphol, without a ticket, and always get a flight, someone would give it to her. She had great faith, because she knew that the One she worked for is the God who reigns in the whole Universe.

  51. SFDBWV says:

    foreverblessed, keeping with the topic of.. who plays who..You ask about the churches.

    Read Revelation 2 & 3, Here we have again a multi-layered example of actual events as well as current and future events all played out together.

    These were actual churches that existed in the day these chapters were writen, they are a good study in how congregational worship went right and went wrong within their membership and leadership.

    They also are a time table of the church ages beginning at the outset of Christianity and coming toward the end of the age of the church in our world at Laodicea…with the famous quote “I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I wouldst that thou wert cold or hot”.

    They are also representitive of our own personal heart, behavior and actions, with reference to our attitude about our faith.

    The Church or body of Christ, here in these 2 chapters of Revelation is talked to directly by the Christ Himself….We are found here in these pages of scripture.


  52. SFDBWV says:

    Reading in Romans 11, we read that God has not cast away the Israelite, that God has saved a remnant, that as said in vs 8 God has closed the eyes and ears of the Jew…unto this day.

    Vs 11 states that God has given salvation to the Gentile to provoke the Jew to jealousy.

    Reading on we all are discribes as a tree with roots and branches, Warnings to us all that if God spared not the natural branches to take heed lest He also spare not us the grafted branches.

    A mystery, explained that the blindness of Israel is until the *fulness* of the Gentile be come in… then all Israel will be saved.

    We the Church as explained in this chapter are seperate from the Israelite, by God’s design…seperate…But God still has purpose for Israel. And intends to forgive them as it is a covenant because of their fathers sake.

    Vs 32 “For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.”

    Fear not God is in control and knows what He is doing…


  53. SFDBWV says:

    Sorry I felt compeled to explain that though our purpose and use for God are seperate, we, the Church are one with the Jew in that we were called as a special people….the tree, spoken of in Romans 11, to obtain salvation through Gods mercy.


Leave a Comment

You must be logged in to post a comment.