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Men’s Aversion to Church

“Why Men Hate Going to Church” by author David Murrow stayed on my desk, unread for a long time, because it looked like an overstatement.

But then I started reading and was intrigued by his suggestion that, of the world’s major religions, only Christianity seems to have a problem getting men.

His assessment is that many men have a prior commitment to a religion of masculinity and that modern Christianity seems to threaten their sense of manhood.

Photo by:v1ctory_1s_m1ne

The deeper I got into Murrow, the more convinced I became that the author was not a “marketer” who was himself uneasy with something as foundational as the “beatitudes” of Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount.

Neither was he saying that the Bible doesn’t speak to the heart and strength of either men or women.

Murrow made it clear that the church must be marked by a healthy expression of both masculinity and femininity and affirmed God’s design for both.

He repeatedly expressed in forceful terms that  he is not calling for male dominance or an absence of women leaders.

Photo: Christian Revival Network by Georges Nys

What he argues is that “from the inside” many of us don’t see that we have, in effect, run a grid through the Bible (my term) and come with a church culture that speaks, sings, and teaches in a language of  “gentle, meek, personal relationships, marked by intimacy, sharing, transparency, love and submission.”

Murrow affirms these basic Christian values but says that we have lifted them out of context. He suspects that in our  natural desire for conformity, comfort, and control we too often fail to balance the love of Christ with the risk, danger, challenge, and sacrifice that marked his life– and to which he called his disciples.

As I read Murrow, I began to second guess how much injustice I might have done to ideas that I’ve so often emphasized here in this column. Suddenly I realized how feminine it could sound to an “outsider male” who hears me talk about the “wisdom that comes from above [that] is first of all pure, peaceable, gentle, willing to yield (deferential), full of mercy and good fruits, impartial, and without hypocrisy (James 3:17).

Even though I wouldn’t want to be caught dead talking or walking like a woman, it occurs to me that that the way I talk about Christ-like attitudes might sound to some men as if they’re being asked to trade in their sports talk, technology, guns and fishing poles for pink shirts, lacy underwear,  and high heels.

Murrow is probably right when he says more than a few unchurched men hear us talk about Jesus as if he is a woman in a beard. He knows that some will say, “C’mon can’t men get past that macho stuff!” His response is that if we expect that… we might as well expect women to dismiss their maternal instincts.”

In either case, what’s bad is leaving the impression that it doesn’t take superhuman strength, courage, risk, initiative, sacrifice, and character to be a Christ-like man or woman.

I’ll stop here for now. There’s much more in his book, just as there is far more to be considered in the other book I’m reading by Denise George, titled What Women Wish Pastors knew and is subtitled “Understanding the Hopes, Hurts, Needs, and Dreams of Women in the Church.”

P.S. From some of the comments to this post I need to make it clear that Murrow isn’t saying that i.e. the fruit of the Spirit is/are feminine but rather that i.e. love, gentleness etc. tend to be perceived by outsiders as being feminine rather than masculine in character– especially when they are expressed in a passive, unengaged, nonChrist-like manner.

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116 Responses to “Men’s Aversion to Church”

  1. poohpity says:

    As a women I probably would be wise not to say anything because I have no idea what a man’s response to the Lord is or what is written in his word. Although in my life I have been around those kind of men, I will use the term loosely that everyday people would be afraid of being around. Strength for them was in their numbers, tattoo’s, mode of transportation and the looks of their woman the list continues. I do not believe I ever witnessed them protecting someone weaker than them as a matter of fact that is who they usually picked on.

    The men who I have been around who show much more strength are those who similar to Jesus had much physical strength and power but used it in a way that protected the innocent, weak, and less fortunate. The kind of men who knew within themselves that they did not have to prove they were men they just knew it. They did not have to be right or stronger or wiser they had nothing or no one to impress.

    When I think of those who may never read God’s Word because they think it may be feminine in some way or another do not really understand the power that God really has and does not use against us. Just the sound of His voice made the hearts of a million people shake in their boots/sandals and that is just a small picture of a strength that we as human beings can not really fathom. I think that is why we want to control so much in our lives because we do not fully understand the power of God and take Him for granted.

  2. tripacer says:

    If you want to talk about a man, Christ is it. Think about it, he demonstrated the ultimate “Man-Up” when he took the beating along with the Cross. Not too many men I know have the guts to do that.


  3. Mart De Haan says:

    poohpity and tripacer, you are so right!! The question then is to what extent we the church have unintentionally developed a culture that doesn’t do justice to the ultimate and perfect example of manhood that we see in him (probably in the biblical text more than in a lot of artistic portraits).

  4. SFDBWV says:

    Honestly Mart, I don’t know where to begin….Let me first direct my comments to this statement you wrote.

    “His assesment…” (Murrow’s)

    See this is where the problem begins. The whole of this fellows book is what *he* thinks or how he sees things.

    Is it going to *open* my eyes or wake me up to see things his way?…Not likely!

    Sigmund Freud seen all behavior as being either masculine or feminine….Modern psychiatry is questionibg that as an absolute.

    Are we attempting to psychoanalyze the scripture? Or worse God’s creation and His order of male and female?

    I look back accross the history of Christianity, and what do I see? Men who worked in the fields but also built churches. Men who lived and died doing both the spectacular work of evangelizing the world as well as cleaning the aisles at their local place of worship.

    A closer look and for all of these men who dedicated their lives to being both a worker and a follower, you see women who aided them in their efforts…Their goals being met by the combined efforts of both the man and the woman.

    Somewhere in all the clucking that goes on in the world of bashing men, there is Satan at work trying to disrupt the God ordained and created order of things, and for what purpose?…Confusion…Second guessing…uncertainty…A loss of faith.

    I am also very *confused* by what I guess is a quote from Murrow, ” In either case what’s bad is leaving the impression that it doesn’t take superhuman strength, courage, risk, initiative,sacrifice and character to be a Christ like man or woman.”


    If he is saying that it *does* take supernatural strength to be Christian…I can agree with that statement. The supernatural strength coming from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit….Not gender related!

    If he is not saying that, then I am as I said *confused*


  5. Loretta Beavis says:

    I didn’t see a question in the topic, nor scriptural quotation AS the topic. So, I’m going to post some observations about the topic around two books I haven’t read and don’t intend to ’cause Ibeentheredonethat and I take my hopes, hurts, needs, dreams et. al to my Man, my Pastor, My King Jesus.

    I learned the hard way that a man is just a human being like me-both gifted and flawed. I take my dreams to the Dream-Maker. The God who made the heart. Who sent His Son to heal the broken hearted. The Christ who was born on Christmas day to save the souls of men. The living God who went to the cross for the joy that was set before him, that I could spend eternity with him, totally forgiven, totally perfect because of His perfect sacrifice. His resume to prove he knows me? He was resurrected. God did all this for me and you. God laid His life down and picked it up again. I know better now than to burden some man-pastor to meet my needs.

    How did my knower get to know better? By reading the Bible slowly and asking God questions and KMS while waiting for answers. By paying attention in church to the message, by singing to Him in worship, not entertaining myself. By forcing myself to hangout a little bit during the open fellowship times so God could use me to connect with someone whose need he wanted to meet that day.

    I go to the church of the “clicks.” There everywhere, unavoidable and if I don’t like it, well, then I’m lookin’ for the perfect church.

    If I’m outside the click, and I mostly am, I ask God what he wants me to do-it may be to start another group, it may be to stay in the group and KMS (keep mouth shut) so the enemy doesn’t advance. And all this takes time. I have had occasion when newbies to a women’s group needed to hear one short testimony or scripture to know the answer to their prayers and God used me or someone else to deliver it. I was a newbie at one time too

    I’ve heard women in leadership say “in the absence of (male) leadership, the women will lead” and one favorite reference is Deborah in the OT.

    About the grid of the bible for a pattern of behavior or value system. O.K., is that a grid of the New Testament only? ‘Cause if I grid the OT there’s a lot of swords, wars, takeover, defending, recovering, rescuing, hunting and fishing et. al. which has been the man type in my country for awhile. One thing I noticed though, is those who listened to God’s marching orders or asked before shooting won the battle because God had already given them the victory.

    As far as Christianity being unattractive due to ‘femininity’ I heard a lot of cries and bumper stickers for love not war and peace, kindness etc, in the sixties and through now in my country. Why wouldn’t a person be attracted to Christianity?

    How’m I don’ ? This opinion should provide some good cannon fodder for someone. Have fun!

  6. poohpity says:

    As Steve said, “Somewhere in all the clucking that goes on in the world of bashing men, there is Satan at work trying to disrupt the God ordained and created order of things, and for what purpose?” That shows the attitude some men have about women “clucking” really???? The created order of things?? Really??? I will not even begin to touch that one.

    Mart, in regards to the question you asked, I think it is not really an unintentional thing the church has done I think it maybe more of what society has done and some men to themselves. It seems the more people pull away from teaching the bible and pointing people to see for themselves. For instance I see in you a Godly man with the wisdom from above but to me that makes you more of a person with inner strength. I would not assign a gender to it.

    My son’s at times think I am so strong because I do what is set before me no matter what my physical health is. They do not see the inside of me that is so dependent on the Lord to get me through everything a moment or a day at a time. I do not tell them to “man up” because their gender is a man already and mine is female. I tell them to be a better person.

    I think the churches are so concerned about stuff that God is in control of and they want to please everyone and not the Lord and that is where they mess up. If they would just concentrate on teaching His Word and leave it up to God to bring the “people” in they would fair much better.

  7. Charis says:

    Mart, in your comment above you refer to Jesus as “the ultimate and perfect example of manhood.” I am a woman and Jesus is my ultimate and perfect role model too. He exemplifies godliness for all.

    I agree with Katharine Bushnell’s observation written in “God’s Word to Women” (Lessons in Humility) in the early 1900’s:

    QUOTE:“since God did not see fit to send into the world, an additional female Christ, to set women a female example, women are under obligation to endeavor, as best they are able, to follow the “manly” example of Jesus Christ, and leave the consequences with God. This is woman’s truly humble place.” -Bushnell

  8. oneg2dblu says:

    Men’s adversion to church? Looks like a slanted view already. I think it is more like, the world’s adversion to church, that needs to be discussed. But, I’m only a man, and may not be totally identifing with my femanine side. LOL! Why give “men” all the credit for the rights or wrongs, that bring one to, or keep one away, from seeking the truth! I hope “ONE” is gender neutral!!
    Male or female, not at all, but “all mankind” has by nature, not by their given or chosen sex, failed to be strong enough, or weak enough to Save ourselves!
    The real issue is, we are all selfish,and want everything our way(.)Only with a healthy on-giong relationship with Christ, and not any church, do we stand a chance to change that which we fail to change ourselves.Unless, we fall victim to not needing change, with a, “Just be yourself,” attitude!
    That is not a gender issue, it is a deception, that no change is required. When, we need to produce fruit in keeping with repentence, which is all about change!!
    Not just being who WE are, but, allowing Christ to change our wanter!Gary

  9. poohpity says:

    Gary this is the second time that you have said, “When, we need to produce fruit in keeping with repentence, which is all about change!! The bible says it is the Holy Spirit who produces the fruit of the Spirit in us nothing we as human beings can do for ourselves. Christ is the ONE who has given us permission to be ourselves and that is what He is all about. It is Christ who changes us so that we will not boost in our own strength. It is about God not us.

  10. SFDBWV says:

    When I was a boy, in our church, the men that were there were the pillars of society. They were the men who were community leaders, as well as businessmen. They were the fellows who worked in the mines or in the timber, as well as on the railroad. They were family men who most likely were there with their wives and children. These men showed others the proper way for men to be a member of society.

    There were also the men and women who sat all day at the local bar. Publicly drunk, fighting with their neighbors and especialy with their wives. Who didn’t care what anyone thought of them, nor did they respect what anyone else did in order for them to survive.

    Who do todays children try to be like?

    Holywood and TV show Christian men to be weak little girlymen, unable to do anything except look like sissy’s.

    The drunken foul mouthed bully is most often shown as the hero…Who not only can get the job done, but gets the girl in the end.

    Children are force fed this tripe from birth up….No wonder our children grew up to be confused and unchurched.

    It isn’t about the division of gender in church today, it is that our society has changed, we have become less, our standards have been lowered and the results are a confused and troubled group of people trying to figure out who they are.

    The battle of the sexes ensuing with the devil laughing as men and women go at it….Satan always knows what buttons to push, in order to push people into the wrong direction.


  11. BruceC says:

    In the church we attend I think I see a fairly even balance of men to women. Gurvhes we have attended in the past were not that way and were mostly women.
    I think the biggest difference lies in what I have observed over most of my life is this: Men; although fallen and of the same human nature as women, have a much bigger ego and pride issue than women and because of such are not as open to anything that “seems” “touchy-feely”; or that points out their weaknesses or flaws. Women have their own “I” problem too; just that IMHO it is not as strong in the same areas as men. My opinions are just general observations.

    Soli Deo Gloria!

  12. foreverblessed says:

    I was going to write in line wiht what Steve and Bruce wrote just above:
    In my vicinity I find the reason that men do not want to be christian, or do not go to church is:
    they do not want to say: I am lost, I have no more I give my life over to Jesus,
    because that sounds like being a weakling, a pussy.
    He who cannot rule in his own life is a loser, according to many men (and women) I know.
    The church is a place for sick peope, for peole who have had breakdowns, who lost their business, who got solitary, in short: for losers.
    Ai, ai, that is exactly what my younger son said a few months ago. He thinks he can manage his own life well enough. I am praying for him though, that he will be found by Jesus.

  13. pegramsdell says:

    As I was reading this blog and reading the posts I was thinking about the first sons. Cain and Abel. One was bad and one was good and loved God. Also Jacob and Esau. One God loved and one God hated. Men are different. There is no standard. God created them that way right? IDK…what about Pharoah? Each of us is different and have the ability to love and to hate. To go to church and worship without caring if someone sees them or sit on a bar stool.

    foreverblessed, will join you in prayer for your son.

  14. oneg2dblu says:

    Pooh… we agree! “It is about God and not us!
    Praise God!
    That sounds like “something” has definately changed us, from being about us, to being about God! Something
    caused us to repent, or we would still only be about us! It changed us, this fruit of repentance, the turning away, reversing direction, a changing of the mind, this recognizing our fallen sinful state, and if not to change us, then it changes nothing, because God will not change, for us. It is “we” who must change for God! Is there any LIGHT in that way of explaining repentance, as I see it? A bringing about of change in us? For me, “As the mind goes, so does the body!” Unless, no change is required! Matthew 3:8 says, “Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.” It does not say, stay the way you were, prior to repentance, where you were not producing!!! Gary

  15. tandgmartin says:

    What Steve said in his response at 11:31 AM hits the nail on the head.

  16. foreverblessed says:

    Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 2 Timothy 2:14

    Come to Jesus as you are, you cannot come in any other way…
    if you do not change after you have accepted Him as you Saviour and Master then there is a problem.

  17. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Have I just entered an alternative universe here!
    I always thought God was a Man.
    The Bible makes no apololy for that and He is always refered to as He, Us or I Am.
    The name of our race is Man, not Woman or Person.
    We are also refered to as Human, but that is normally to excuse our frailty and sin.
    Jesus is the complete man and shows every aspect of man hood and who we are and meant to be.
    We aspire to be like Him.
    All this discussion about masculinity and femininity in church just detracts from what we are about, that is to proclaim Christ, The Saviour, and the good news of His Gospel to all men.
    Jesus is King and we live in His Kingdom.
    Other religions do not even discuss this issue.
    The only feminine thing I can see is that the Church(with a Big C) is refered to as the bride of Christ and will Reign with Him one day as His Queen.
    But we are the individual parts that make up this Church and we are as diverse as an ear is to a toe.
    As many of you know I have had trouble, in the past, with issues of masculine and feminine but of one thing I am sure there is know suspicion when it comes to Jesus. He is a man who is able to Love and weep and show his feelings but also a MAN who is able to defeat death and is Master of all.
    If our churches are begoming indoctrinated with “femenine” thinking then we are missing out on God’s Kingdom and our rightfull inheritance as sons of God.


  18. foreverblessed says:

    Not to quarrel about words:
    Murrow calls these traits feminine:
    “wisdom that comes from above [that] is first of all pure, peaceable, gentle, willing to yield (deferential), full of mercy and good fruits, impartial, and without hypocrisy (James 3:17).
    While they are Christlike…

  19. hollis59 says:

    You have hit a hot button for many of us. First, note that reference is made to other religions. Most of those religions are in areas where the society/culture is male-dominated. Think Islam. So the comparison may not be fair.

    The reasons for a lack of male participation are, no doubt, legion. But let me toss another one into the mix: Music. Both lyrics and music. Contemporary music has embraced electric guitars and stronger percussion, but the traditional service has not. For a man walking into a church for the first time, the music will seem on the soft side. No Led Zepplin or Transiberian Orchestra on the menu.

    The lyrics can add to the impression that the church admires the sweet qualities of Christ but overlooks just how tough he was.

    Why men are adverse to church is complex, but don’t overlook the areas, like music, that we assume are edifying for all.

  20. poohpity says:

    Yes foreverblessed. The scripture that Gary is referring to is the one that John the Baptist was telling to the Sadducees and Pharisees who did nothing but flaunt their piety and self righteousness without a heart for God or His people. Matt 3:8 Taking scripture out of context to prove a point can be very harmful to those listening.

    Our church started a program for sons of single moms it is called S.O.S it brought godly men into our son’s lives to give them examples to follow much like where Rocky’s heart is for ministry. It helped them when they were young but after they were older hopefully they have become followers of Christ and found His example to follow. I do not know where my son’s would be without Him in their lives and I am terrified to even think of that. They go to church and read the bible I do not think I have ever heard them say anything about the church being gender specific but they have said that there are all kinds of clicks and groups which they felt excluded from because of social status and materialism.

  21. poohpity says:

    They have said stuff about music because one is a musician and really likes the newer music I like all kinds of music.

  22. Mart De Haan says:

    Steve, in regard to the statement, “In either case what’s bad is leaving the impression that it doesn’t take superhuman strength, courage, risk, initiative,sacrifice and character to be a Christ like man or woman,” those are my words not Murrows. And my point was that it does take the superhuman strength of the Spirit of God to express these traits of character– in either a man or a woman.

    Wow, am seeing once again that quite a number are misunderstanding my point– which means I’m not being clear enough.

    What Murrow did for me was important: i.e.

    1. To sensitize me to the misperceptions of those who need Christ (both men and women).
    2. To alert me to the possibility that we have not given our world a balanced picture of the kind men that we see in the Son of God, Paul, Peter, James etc.
    3. To make sure that when I emphasize i.e. the fruit of the Spirit or the characteristics of wisdom that I do justice to the strength, risk, challenge, change etc. that they represent when the presence of God shows up in the lives of his people.

  23. Mart De Haan says:

    Foreverblessed, Murrow calls them feminine (i.e. they tend to be regarded as feminine characteristics) if they are expressed in passive ways (that do not do justice to the challenge, outreach, risk, and transformation of the Gospel)

  24. mike1 says:

    As a male, I am also feeling left-out of the Church. Sunday services tend to be “Christianity lite” — with an abundance of singing, social events, pretty slides/posters,and meetings. Emphasis seems to be on outward appearances, rather than substance. Pastors seem afraid to really get to the heart of Jesus’ teachings. Men want to learn, not be “entertained”. Men want a purpose for attending a Church service, not just because it is Sunday.

  25. PhilBert says:

    I read Murrow’s book several years ago, and found much about it to be true about my own church. Please understand, that his premise concerns NOT an effeminate view of Christ, but, a female-oriented way of “doing church” that often turns men off of attending church services and functions. Murrow fully affirms the masculinity of Jesus as He is presented in the Scriptures, but he deplores the fact that church services, sermons, programs and functions have taken on an appeal to women in such a way as to no longer challenge minister to and appeal to men. In many ways, I have to agree with his conclusions about modern church life.

  26. kayall says:

    We have been deceived. Men who love the Lord their God with all their heart are vitally important to the family. Men are to be the high priest of their family, making intercession, reflecting Christ’s love and wisdom, setting boundaries, constantly teaching their children about God. Men are to carry the burdens of the famly to the Throne of Grace. The head of the wife is the husband, the head of the husband is Christ. This is a powerful position in the Kingdom of God.

    UnGodly order in homes has ushered in spirits of confusion, rejection, self-loathing, fornication and much more. This is a grand slam for our enemy.

    Maybe if men knew that by not walking with God through Christ they are being robbed blind in broad daylight.

  27. Charis says:

    Bob in Cornwall, In response to your statement above that you “always thought God was a man” and “the name of our race is Man not woman or person”.

    I would like to make two points based on Genesis 1:26-28:

    1. The image of God includes Male AND Female. And God is not gendered as we think of it. God is Spirit.

    2. The name of our race is “Adam”. The word “man” is a translation of Adam. Here is Genesis 1:26-28 with that Hebrew word inserted. If “Adam” = male, then I’m curious how the “blessed them” spoken of in the following passage are going to “be fruitful and multiply”?

    Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man/ADAM in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    27So God created man/ADAM in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion

  28. Charis says:

    Bob here is another Biblical definition of “ADAM”/man:

    Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

    2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

  29. foreverblessed says:

    being passive in expression?
    if there is peace, purity, gentleness
    it is being expressed
    and so it is active

    It sounds like the
    faith and works debate

    We cannot of ourselves have love, it must flow through us by the Holy Spirit, like water
    the only thing that we have to do actively is to keep the pipe clean.
    We are the pipes through which the water flows, we are not the water.

    It is our ego that blocks the pipe.

    If we are in services and their is music, it is time for us to worship our Lord, it is active, it is not being amused, you particiapte yourself,
    and beyond that you could be so excited about your being freed from the darkness by Jesus that you could dance to the music,
    even David danced
    I look forward to the day when men in church are dancing,
    and there is nothing feminine about that,
    but expressing godly joy.

  30. PWS says:


    This statement got me thinking, “…of the world’s major religions, only Christianity seems to have a problem getting men.” Have you established, by any verifiable means, that that is correct? Assuming so, is this phenomena world-wide, or is it associated with Western culture? The answers to these questions could be eye-opening.

    Once again, assuming that it is a uniquely Christian problem to “attract” men, can we find any other attributes that are uniquely Christian?

    1) Its deity died for its followers
    2) Salvation is by faith, not works
    3) Its followers are led by Example

    Do these uniquely Christian concepts shed any light on the “problem”? Is it possible that men, more than women, want to “do” something? Since the “doing” was done by Jesus, we are now asked to follow Him. Following is not always easy for men. Men typically want to lead, to do, to be in charge. Like the rich young ruler, many men may walk away with a heavy heart.

  31. gennussa says:

    Christ calls all to be conformed to his image and the calling is spiritual, it transcends culture. We are to be in the world, yet not of it.Look at the Sermon on the Mount. The spiritual challenges in the NT resonate to those
    who are willing to SUBMIT to Christ.If a man is too proud to conform then the problem is a spiritual one and no superficial tinkering will address that, only the conviction of the Holy Spirit that can come through Biblical preaching and Bible reading and humility. Humility is not a popular word in our “it is all about me culture”.

  32. foreverblessed says:

    Maybe we in church should be more transparent, like Paul who was open about his past, and very humble about it.
    If we are to follow more of the New Testament teaching the men have to open up even more…
    It is the sin we have to get rid of.
    I have been in a meeting where people were openly going to the front and giving their burdens, secret sins, many who struggle with alcohol, sexual addictions, nicotine addictions, depression, unforgiveness
    and gave it to Jesus,

    It was such a relief, and afterwards there was music singing together in such a joyous way I have never met before.
    We can only give our sins our burdens to Jesus, that is our action,
    He gives us His righteousness…
    Psalm 4:1 God of my righteousness

  33. foreverblessed says:

    Mart I do think I follow what you try to say,
    you have to talk about the costs too.

    But what I do not like is that Murrow calls a passive way of living a christian life (which in itself is a contradiction) feminine. Do you get what I mean?

  34. Sarah58 says:

    I do believe that most services at churches are geered towards the female and not the male. In most teachings in many churches they call God she. How can He be a she when the Holy Spirit overcame Mary and created life. Also many women tend to go to church to pray for their families. Men seem to say I don’t have the time to go to church because of their job or they are into sports. How many men are evangelizing other men. Not to many. It is women that go door to door spreading the gospel. Of course it was a women who was the first evagelist (woman at the well). The church does not talk about mens issues. Our church does have a mens prayer breakfast on Saturdays. I cannot see a woman as a priest because there are so many spiritual evils out there that can attack a woman in her emotions where men are controlled by intelect. It is the old battle of the sexes. Who is superior. We are both equal in the sight of God. Out of Adam came Eve. She is bone of his bone.

  35. Sarah58 says:

    There is one more thing I need to add to my comment and that is what Humility really is and that is quiet strength. That is what Jesus had and we need to follow His example.

  36. scout1 says:

    I believe that men are not that interested in the church anymore. I have seen a decline in men at church. I think that there are many reasons why -but I believe that the root of it is Satan.

    If Satan can bust up the family unit that God established and get men out of the church -then we don’t run as God set things in place. We’re not operating as God set it up.

    So many Bible stories had just the same things happen and it wouldn’t be a smooth operation again until things were back to the way God had set it up.


  37. Bob in Cornwall England says:


    Thank you for your point and those scriptures.
    I have been reading Genesis and just went over those passages again.
    It is quite clear that Man or Adam is the generic name given both men and women and both genders are equaly made in the image of God.
    As I have said before, when a man takes a wife they become one flesh and are one, just as the Father and the Son are one.
    But a single person, man or woman is also one and complete as they are also made in God’s image even though they are not one flesh with another person.
    Paul even went as far as to imply it is better to be single than to be married as long as you do not lust after the flesh.
    What I am trying to say here is… by commiting so much energy to this socalled cultural problem we seem to have over how we present our church services we miss the point of why we are having them.
    As well as worship, Church is to encourage us ALL, men and women, and while there are one or two gender specific topics, it is the duty of the Pastor and Elders to focus the people on Jesus and His attributes.
    Satan loves the fact that men are put off by limp services and a damp message because he knows when men, especially young men, get fired up for Christ then miracles happen and God’s power is revealed.
    Apart from a few, most of the 12 apostles were big strong rough hairy fishermen and probable never new they had a feminine side. But they turned the world upside down when they let Jesus into their lives.


  38. encourager says:

    I say, “Finally! Someone is addressing this problem.” However, by reading some of the comments, some are not getting it.
    I am a women and I see the church in our culture as very feminine. It has been a bother to me for many years. I understand what Murrow is saying. My own husband has expressed that very thing. He doesn’t attend church for that very reason. Murrow IS on to something. Our churches (and schools) are very feminine in nature. I believe our men have been conditioned to “act” a certain way to “prove” they are Christian or Christlike. So they shake hands softly and speak softly and behave in a fake way for their true nature. How about a strong handshake instead of a noodle-hand? That shows strength of character. It doesn’t take away from him being a gentleman.
    The best example of the feminity destroying manhood is what is happening in the schools. It is there also.
    It used to be when a bully picked on someone at school that a child could defend himself and the bully would be disciplined. Now they both are in trouble. The problem is, that women (teachers) don’t understand the males importance of establishing the “pecking” order in society. That a boy needs to learn how to defend himself and fight off the bad guy because someday he will have a wife and children to protect. It is something that God put in men. Why has it become so evil in people’s eyes to fight for oneself. To try and “talk it out” is a feminine way of dealing with things…and that is a good thing but we must try to understand the difference of boys and girls. I bet if we could change this problem in our churches then we would see more men attending church with their families.

  39. Bob in Cornwall England says:


    I missed your post while I was typing.
    I agree with you that there is a natural order to God’s plan for us and satan likes nothing better than to destroy it and cause confusion.


  40. lex6819 says:

    I am sure that the entire history of the church has not been marked by the lack of men’s participation. I think it must be a very recent trend.

    As Mart points out, most discussions of the character of Jesus leave out the qualities of risk-taking, daring, adventure, etc etc

    In the medieval period, the concept of the Christian Knight was the model for Christian men. Spain’s epic poem “Poema de Mio Cid”(The Poem of the Cid) is an example of how Christian heroism was defined for men in the character of El Cid: loyal subject to his king, protector of his wife and daughters, valiant warrior, etc etc.

    Could it be possible the lack of male “role models” in the church could be due to the vacuum created by the rejection of the idea of the medieval knight?

    After all, hardly anyone openly admires the medieval Christian Knights, since they took part in the Crusades and there is a lot of politically-correct postmodern guilt about the Crusades.

    The last time our culture really idealized the concept of the Christian Knight was in the Victorian period, when we were a much more religious society as a whole, and there was no shortage of men going to church.

    Maybe the church needs to set aside the Crusader-guilt for a change and resurrect the model of the ideal Christian man. Otherwise, we have nothing to offer men.

  41. ttburnie says:

    I think its pretty simple. In the beginning, Eve was deceived, but Adam rebelled knowingly. So coming to Christ for women is deliverance from deception and domination, which is highly valued in our society. Men, however, must submit, quit rebelling and follow Christ. These are not highly valued in our society. The call to women is be free and become who you were created to be. The call to men is submit and become a servant. Since this is true and rooted in our human nature and sinful condition, its not surprising men don’t come to Christ as readily as women.

  42. poohpity says:

    Hopefully we have grown past medieval Christian Knights their thoughts were that if they regained control of Jerusalem out of the hands Muslims they could earn their salvation.

  43. oneg2dblu says:

    Please correct me if I’m off base with these statements;
    God has established an order for things like, the church, the church service, the design of family, how to worship, how to pray, when to have the sabath, and, “WHO IT IS” that has the Glory, Honnor, Power and Dominion… over ALL THINGS!
    It is His Formula that HE has made, we can change it to fit our feelings, but when we do, we do not improve upon it!
    There are god-given rules, and there are natural laws that He has made, and no one else can change “His Mind” about those things. He is the same today, tomorrow, and forever, and never going to change, His established order!
    For the church, the Head is Christ, not a man, but God!
    For the spiritual leader of the family… it is one male,and one female! God has chosen the man, who must also put God first.
    Without order we will have only chaos.
    Through away, or ignore the structure, and the wholeness of the design, falls apart.
    My Pastor says, If you don’t like the way we are doing Church, for it is not to “your” liking, then next week, do it your way.
    Show up when you want, any time you want, any day you want, play the music you want at any time you want, during the service you want, and have all the people saying and singing anything they want, any time they want,and don’t bother having a specific time of ending as well. See how that goes for you! Good Luck with that!
    There must be order in all things, or there will be chaos, in all things.
    The Word of God has complete order, just the way it is!
    But man, cannot tolerate, not having it any other way but his way, and refuses to allow God to help him change his wanter. So, the perfect word has no perfect solution for him, unless he follows it God’s way!
    Christ said, He did not come to abolish the law…
    Please read for yourself again, and again, until you get it! Although, we live under grace and not the law,
    you will abuse His Grace, if your not abiding in both Christ and the law, for he said, that it still stands, “Until heaven and earth disappear” and that has not yet happened! Do I mis-read this also, and use it out of context, for my own desire?
    Sorry, you do not have a “License called Grace,” designed for you to be Disobedient, and Unrepentant! When we live Under Grace, we also have God’s Helper living in us, so we can overcome, even those laws we have choosen to not obey! God Provides, because He is willing! Amen?

  44. oneg2dblu says:

    ttburnie… you’ve got the Garden Scene down properly.
    Eve was “deceived,” and Adam sinned, and WE all suffered! She was conned into sinning, but she did sin. That one deceptive mis-step or sin, led to them both, to being banished from God’s Garden, for it “set in motion,” Adam’s conscience sin!
    So, it is a perfect picture, of how “one even unnoticed sin” can have such a drastic result, whenever we are conned into believing it doesn’t matter, we become the set up for others as well!
    Whether you are saved or not, “your sin,” can have an effect on many other souls being “set up” and lost forever! Your Salvation is the solution for your sin, but only, by not sinning again, and again, are you going to be really free from sin. Christ is the Helper, and our Resisting and Repenting, is the “work” we must do! Whether you are the decieved female, or the conscious sinning male, the result will always have an
    effect on others!

  45. Mart De Haan says:

    Foreverblessed, I hear you. But some of the problem is probably the way I am trying to summarize Murrow. As I understand him, he isn’t saying that i.e. the fruit of the spirit is feminine in reality– but rather that i.e. love, peace, gentleness etc. are perceived by outsiders as being feminine.

  46. Regina says:

    Good Evening All

    I love this blog topic.

    Mart stated, “What he argues is that “from the inside” many of us don’t see that we have, in effect, run a grid through the Bible (my term) and come with a church culture that speaks, sings, and teaches in a language of “gentle, meek, personal relationships, marked by intimacy, sharing, transparency, love and submission.”

    Well, I believe that that’s exactly how Jesus lived. I can only think of two times in the Bible where he was upset (not saying that those were the only two times, but, if not, why aren’t others mentioned?).

    Matt. 21:12-13; 18-19, NIV
    12) Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13) “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’ but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’”

    18) Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19) Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.

    I think Jesus was very even-tempered, he was “manly” yet gentle at the same time. In the Bible, we read about how Jesus “lived out” “gentle, meek, personal relationships” that were “marked by intimacy, sharing, transparency, love and submission.” Exactly what Mart said.

    Thinking about the clothes they wore back then too. There were no jeans, cowboy boots and hats! lol! They dressed in robes and sandals. Not very “macho” attire!

    Was also thinking about Galatians 3:28, NIV
    “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, *nor is there male and female,* for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    My thoughts for now. Haven’t read any of the other comments.

    Sunny weather in Texas today.

  47. Regina says:

    *haven’t read any of the other comments yet! Love reading your comments! :)

  48. marma says:

    I suppose that men have their reasons for not going to church, which, as a woman, I’ve never given much thought to. I can only say for myself, that I’ve had reasons not to go to this church or that church, and finally decided to go unless the church preached heresy!

    We need to meet together as believers. Period. There will always be things we don’t like and whether it is because we feel one group dominates be it young, old, married, or gender based, there will be those of us who don’t feel we fit in or have a place in service. Trust me when I say that I have plenty of reasons not to go and have difficulty getting involved, not the least of which is my work life which takes up far too much of my time, but is something at present that I’ve had to accept.

    I really enjoy reading CS Lewis, but remember him saying he found problems with the wording of the hymns (scriptural) and I read someone else as saying he didn’t particularly like sermons. Still he went, and left early. From that I get that church as it was in his day with the forms, etc., wasn’t appealing to him, but he understood the underlying need to go.

    The early church had good reasons not to go–gathering together would certainly give those who sought to persecute them a heads up, and the churches had problems aplenty, yet Paul still encouraged them to keep assembling together for building each other up.

    Often we go looking for something that the church will give us, instead of what we have to give to others. Someone mentioned that in their comments, to which I say, “Amen!”

  49. marma says:

    I don’t doubt that Murrow’s book makes some valid points. What is wrong/right with churches today could take up several books.

  50. foreverblessed says:

    Thanks Mart, I hope you will not change your talk about who God is,
    His mercy, His Grace, His love
    His restraint in using power
    because people think it to be feminine.

  51. foreverblessed says:

    CHrist’s teaching about defending:
    -Matthew 5:11-12 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
    -Matthew 5:38-42
    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

    If that is not considered masculine,
    there is a problem in the thinking of those who think this to be feminine.

  52. foreverblessed says:

    If someone wants to have your i-pod, agressively, you give him your i-phone as well. Matthew 5:40
    That in fact is what Jesus teaches,
    And that takes real courage.
    The following is an example of Matthew 5:40:
    St Maarten, who lived in France in the 4th century, as head of a monastery in Piotier, a thief was caught with the table silver of the monastery, Maarten says: O I wanted to give him this also, and he gives the thief some more of the silver.

    Is that masculine?
    The result being that the thief is so touched in his heart that he repents and becomes a christian.

    I do not have an expample like this in my own life, so I use Maarten’s story.

    I wish pastors would have examples in their own lives how they obeyed this rule of Jesus,
    That would take courage.

  53. Mart De Haan says:

    PWS, about your question as to whether this is a “Western Christianity problem” and found a couple of clarifying factors.

    Murrow says the pattern is not true of the early church, or in pioneering missions/church plants/start-up ministries, or in some parachurch, and some large church efforts (where there is obvious challenge, active goals, and/or risk). But he does say that “Men’s disinterest in Christianity is consistent around the world” as opposed to “roughly equal participation” in Judaism, Buddhism, and Hinduism”.

    The factors you mentioned are definitely part of the picture.

  54. poohpity says:

    Gary, you said, “Christ said, He did not come to abolish the law…” but it again was taken out of context. The whole sentence reads, 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to “fulfill” them. You also said, “Please read for yourself again, and again, until you get it!” it may be wise to listen to your own direction.

  55. SFDBWV says:

    I love it when the blog goes out on the email list…I wish the added people who comment would stay with the conversations, as they bring a wealth of views along with them. How refreshing, thank you all.

    In my limited world of experiance, there are various personalities of men and women. But for now I am going to just comment about the men.

    What is it that constitutes a man? Who is it that has attributed male or female traits or characteristics to how men behave? Who set the standard? Where is this rule defined?

    If a man stands up and accepts his duties and responsibilities, provides for the care and needs of his family, honors his parents as well as his elders, does his job honestly and with pride, is a good father and husband, and neighbor….He could be said to be a man. An honest to goodness full grown adult man.

    However if a male is lazy, hides behind his wifes skirt, complains that all his failures are someone elses fault, hides his face from the world around him in a bottle of booze or drugs; Can produce children but not care for them, does not contribute to society but takes from it… Is he what the world would call a man? Just because he is a male?

    The men I know of who attend church or are confessing Christians, either have the better qualities of manhood, or have adopted them since becoming a Christian.

    The men I know of who are not Christian , can have some good work qualities, even some good neighbor qualities, but they lack being the full man, who is the follower of Christ.

    Neither of these two different men’s behavior can be assigned a female or male characteristic label.

    Whether or not the two different styles of behavior is seen as good or bad, is defined by Biblical teaching and example.

    Good or bad…not male or female/masculine or feminine.


  56. poohpity says:

    What would it look like to present Jesus in a more masculine way? How could it be told any different to get men into church? I have to admit it does seem that more women attend Church but I always thought as several others have said that it was a matter of pride. I have heard it said by some males that having a relationship with Christ is a crutch although quite the opposite seems to be true because it takes a lot of moxy and intelligence to worship a Omnipotent, Omniscience, Omnipresent God.

  57. poohpity says:

    And not feel you are on yourself.

  58. poohpity says:

    “one” not “on”

  59. rxman says:

    John Eldgredge has a great book that speaks to this topic,called Wild at Heart. First, he says that men and women are different because that’s the way God made them,i.e., Women are from Venus and Men are from Mars. Somehow today the world and the church wants us all to be one genderless people who all want the same thing. He goes on to say that men basically need something to conquer and women want to be rescued. This is not to say that there is some crossover, but basically, that is the difference between men and womenm

    I believe that men and give up their leadership role in the church as well as women may have stepped too quickly into leadership.

    I agree with Eldredge in that men and women are made different with different wants and desires for a reason.

  60. Charis says:

    Bob in Cornwall,

    I agree with your statement that “by committing so much energy to this so called cultural problem we seem to have over how we present our church services we miss the point of why we are having them.”

    The problem is more fundamental that a gender issue. The problem is more of a “lukewarmness” issue. Isn’t the whole focus on gender really about features of the flesh? see Gal 3:28 “in Christ. . . there is neither male nor female”.

    I hesitated to mention this earlier, not wishing to detract from Mart’s focus, but the fact is that its not only males who are leaving the church. Young people are leaving the church. My own married 22 year old daughter and her husband are both Christians raised in Christian homes, but they don’t go to church. I asked her why? Her reason is that the activities are too gender specific and/or focussed on either singles or families with children. She isn’t interested in a “ladies tea”, and her husband isn’t interested in the “men’s hiking trip”. She wants to do things together with him and be regarded and treated as equal, with her leadership qualities and intelligence respected, just as they are in the secular world where she is in her clinical year of PA training.

    As to your point about the original 12 apostles being male, this is true, but IMO they are not a role model for how the church should run. They were chosen for a unique transition period between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Not only were they male, but they were circumcised, middle eastern (white?), Hebrew men of the (12?) tribes of Israel.

    At the Last Supper, Jesus instituted a New Covenant by His blood. “It is Finished” and then He rose. Who was the very first “sent one” entrusted with this Good News? (see John 20:17 I have heard her referred to as “the Apostle to the Apostles” ) Under the New Covenant, ministry authority does not come from circumcised flesh but from a circumcised heart. (see Romans 2:11-29)

  61. poohpity says:

    rxman, I read that book too! I was wondering how I could help my son’s being raised in a home with just a mom.

  62. Charis says:

    Mart clarifies above:

    “Murrow says the pattern is not true of the early church, or in pioneering missions/church plants/start-up ministries, or in some parachurch, and some large church efforts (where there is obvious challenge, active goals, and/or risk).” -Mart

    In the early church and on the mission field women were/are not sidelined to “ladies teas”. Perhaps the problem in the American church is the common substitution of hierarchy based on body parts for “one flesh” partnership/dominion of male AND female? As far as I know, God did not retract Genesis 1:26-28 and Jesus came to restore us to that original “image of God” (Col 3:10).

  63. mike1 says:

    Description of the Church in Laodicea (Revelation 3:14-22) sure seems to fit most modern churches.

  64. SFDBWV says:

    mike1, You are right, the modern church era is in the last church age, given as example by Christ in Revelation just prior to the Rapture and Tribulation.


  65. foreverblessed says:

    Yes, and that is why I do not like that Murrow makes it a feminine/masculine thing.
    It is about our old nature/Jesus nature, supernatural.
    Not super human.

    I like the Utmost for His Highest from januari 5, about Peter, who saw his own utter failure after the denial and cursing, despite his good resolutions.
    It was really broken men Jesus worked with, Peter, and Paul as well.

    Mary Magdalene as the first apostle to the disciples! Wow
    I often wondered how that would have felt for the men, that Jesus first showed himself to a woman. Maybe they were not at all so down on women. And the place women had in prayer in the background was considered as a high and important place to be by the men. Without the preparatory work of prayer no brining of the gospel could be done.

    We have talked about it at new years day:
    All in one accord praying together,
    how much power that would release,

    If men are not going to church, they at least can look for christians to pray together with. On their knees (not literal, but knees bowed for Jesus being completely humble).

  66. Charis says:

    Steve (7:44am) said “The men I know of who attend church or are confessing Christians, either have the better qualities of manhood, or have adopted them since becoming a Christian.

    The men I know of who are not Christian , can have some good work qualities, even some good neighbor qualities, but they lack being the full man, who is the follower of Christ”– quote from Steve


    At the risk of sounding cynical, I have been married for 28 years to a man who attends (conservative evangelical) church every time the door opens, has a (conservative evangelical) seminary degree, has been a professor at (conservative evangelical) Christian colleges. . . and has had a long term closet problem with lust and sexual addiction: porn use, strip club patronage, and two seasons of adultery- one in 1990 and another in 2008. I’m pretty sure my husband is not unique among pew sitters and pulpit pounders.

    A young man who is not a Christian has a crush on my 18 yo daughter. He is not a christian but he is kind, compassionate, protective, considerate, and respectful and she likes him. I have to be honest. I told her that I think perhaps those character qualities are far MORE important and MORE Christ-like than a profession of christianity and involvement in church activities or even church “leadership”. She says she can’t date him until he loves God more than her and I told her to tell him that. They may never be a couple, but this may be a spark for him to meet God.

  67. scout1 says:

    Wow Charis -your comment about your husband and the opinion you have about Christian men, strikes a note with me.

    As a single gal, I have waited for years for the right “Christian man” -the one that the Lord has for me. Well, the Christian men that I have seen and dated are the worst in behavior and character than the “non-Christian” men. WHY??? Does it go back to the topic at hand??

    I have seen this since my 20’s. -which was a long time ago now. . .

    I have a neighbor who has been very kind to me and my son. He is an agnostic. Has he been kind, considerate, caring, respectful and protective. Would I want to marry and set him as leader of my house? No! He would never lead our home as a Christ centered place. Has he been sent from the Lord to help when no one else would? I don’t know.

    It’s been a long time since I’ve seen this falling away of the men from the Lord/Church. Even a small degree off and now that we have traveled this far -we are way off the mark. Satan only needs us to be off the mark just a wee bit. Time widens the gap.

    P.s. Please don’t think that I think that there is only things wrong with the men. Us ladies need some refining as well. Sometimes I think that if the men (being the leaders) got on track it would flow down to the rest of the “pecking order” -as God set up.


  68. Charis says:


    Over the past few years of wondering what went wrong and really digging in Scripture, I have come to the place of rejecting the oft repeated refrain that “the husband is the head of the household” as extremely destructive, IMO probably a root cause of the high divorce rate among professing christians. Do a Bible search. You won’t find it except in the declaration of a pagan king when his wife refuses to parade herself in front of a drunken party wearing (only?) her crown (see Esther 1:22). It’s a Christian myth, and an attempt to enshrine the Gen 3:16 consequences of the Fall into doctrine regulating “Christian marriage”.

    The husband is the head of the WIFE, and the wife is his body (Eph 5). This is an intimacy metaphor, not a Lordship metaphor as it is commonly taught. When I had my husband- with all his baggage- in the position of LORD of me and our 8 children, it was spiritually deadly, a yoke of bondage.

    I think there’s an epidemic of Ananias and Sapphira marriages (see Acts 5). The husband isn’t surrendering EVERYTHING. He’s keeping some favorite little vices tucked away in the closet and putting on the “holy mask” for church. And the wife, by her submissive silent agreement to lie to the Holy Spirit becomes an enabler. Been there and done that. Had to renounce the Sapphira spirit and start standing up for myself and the children. My husband has toppled off the pedestal upon which I used to have him. He is no longer the leader of my household. “As for me and my household, we shall serve the LORD” regardless of my husbands choices.

    Yesterday, I suggested to my 18 yo daughter that she should not rule out the gift of singleness. She was quick to shoot down that option. But, Scout, for you as a single woman, be encouraged by the words of Paul who warns “But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.” (1 Cor 7:28 NIV) and commends singlehood saying that the single woman “cares about the things of the Lord” 1 Cor 7:34

  69. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… thanks for correcting me on the “context point,” AGAIN AND again! For to you, the part “you choose” makes complete sense, and the part I choose is always out of context for you! How is that?
    Do you also find 2 Timothy 3:16 TO BE out of context for you, and not applicable to you? That is my point, context alone, does not cancel out the word of God that never returns void, unless you decide it is out of context for you.
    Then, you make it VOID for you!
    I’m done, wasting God’s good word, on your “context only” driven mindset, that you CONSTANTLY throw back at me! Eat your words, would be just as meaning full to both of us! As we pick and choose WHAT PART of God’s Word fits the context!
    For me, when God says he finds something detestable, I stay away from it AT ALL COST, even the cost of my “sworn” never to be lost Salvation! When you claim that YOUR SALVATION, IS SAFE FOR spiitting it back into His Face, as being “In Context,” to keeping your salvation SECURE, I find your words detestable, AND OUT OF CONTEXT AS WELL!
    To me, God’s Laws, as long as we are in our imperfected bodies,and as long as there is a heaven and an earth as we know it, will “always apply” to us, as being in context! Please forgive me as I shake “this dust” off my feet and move on! In Him, GARY

  70. Charis says:


    I’m sorry if I went too far afield in my comments.

    Back on topic,

    Mike1 observed 8:46am “Description of the Church in Laodicea (Revelation 3:14-22) sure seems to fit most modern churches.” -Mike

    To that church, Jesus said “because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.” Rev 3:16 NKJV

    I like the “vomit” translation. Its just very descriptive of how Jesus must feel about this lukewarm church. Could we say JESUS has “an aversion” to this church? To quote your post title, I suggest that “Men who have an aversion to the church” are in very good company. The remedy is given in Rev 3:17ff.

  71. poohpity says:

    Gary, may the Lord bless you and keep you and may His face shine upon you and give you peace.

  72. SFDBWV says:

    Charis, I am well aquainted with your difficulties being married to a poor excuse of a man and a worse example of a Christian. For you and your struggles living with him and dealing with him I am truly sorry for you….Maybe God gave you this life of dissapointment for your spiritual growth, I don’t know.

    But it is not fair for you to judge all men by your husbands behavior nor is it fair to judge all Christian men who do attend church and try to live a good Christian life based on the low life example your husband has demonstrated.

    There are good and bad people out here in this world. Their being either good or bad is not a matter of their being feminine or maculine in nature.

    Their being good or bad in behavior is about their heart and their conscience and adherence to being obedient to God…or not.

    I know good men who are not a church attending Christians, I know men who attend church who are no better in behavior than that of your husband…But that is not the point of discussion of the topic..

    The topic is why do men not attend church or do not wish to be Christian. Whether it is a feminine or masculine issue.

    My response remains the same…The *good men* I know who attend Church are more of a whole man then all of the so called masculine males who do not.

    Boys who think being a man means being a macho man are not adult enough yet to know the difference between a man and a boy. No matter what their age.

    The definition of a whole man is found in the examples and teaching of scripture.

    I am again sorry you got a skunk for a husband, but not all men are skunks, I am deeply sorry that your husband is a wolf in sheeps clothing…God will judge him for his behavior. But not all Christian men are the low life he is, but low lifes like him sure get the spotlight over and above all the good Christian men in our midst.

    I think maybe that is the way Satan wants it.


  73. poohpity says:

    I believe that there was only one “good” Christian man” and that was Jesus Christ. All the others may claim the title but fall very short of being truly “good”.

  74. dja says:

    Pooh, you’re absolutely right-only Jesus is good, but I think what Steve is referring to by a “good Christian man (or woman) is a person who strives to do what is right before the Lord. In Proverbs 2 Solomen is writing to his son about wisdom and keeping on a straight path. He concludes that chapter saying, “Thus you will walk in the way of good men and keep to the paths of the righteous.” Proverb 12:2 says that a “good man finds favor from the Lord”
    There is only One who is good and perfect. I think everyone on this blog would be quick to say Amen to that. However, the Lord works in His children to do good, and it is such a blessing to be with people of good character.

    We’re suppose to get SNOW tonight and tomorrow. We haven’t had much in NEPA, but it certainly has been cold!

  75. davids says:

    Wow, this subject has more strands than my daughter’s hair.

    Going back to Mart’s clarification on 5 Jan at 3:27 PM. Is it true that men are really less-inclined toward the church? I don’t see it in our congregation. It might be that men are more drawn toward some denominations.

    Some have already quoted Galatians. In Christ there is neither male nor female. Societies offer role models for males and females, with the male often being the dominant role.

    Turning to Christ must mean a change of heart. The “New Man” (or New Woman) must be different than the old one. If a life centered on Christ does not differ from the life lived before than has anything changed?

    I echo Steve’s comments and those of others that a Christian Man is a man of responsibility, courage, bravery, and endurance against the temptations of this world toward selfishness and egoistic pleasures. Self-disclipline is the hardest of all, and I don’t claim it for myself, but it is my goal.

    So the Church must show that the way of submission and humility is not that of weakness, but rather that of personal strength. Men can still talk about sports and cars, but it is important to center your life on lasting values.

  76. phpatato says:


    I for one will miss you if you leave. I quite enjoy reading what you have to say. Your passion and love for Christ can NEVER be doubted for I sense it wholeheartedly through my computer screen. Please stay. As this is a CHRISTIAN blog site, I am sure that no one on here purposely tries to patronize or tries to promote an air of condescension. As Steve has tried to say so many times before, we are at the mercy of our computer screens and it is extremely difficult to express through words how we are thinking. It is imperative that we remember this before we let our fingers loose.

    Happy is the day for me when I get to meet you all in Glory!

    In Christ’s Love


  77. scout1 says:

    Charis, Thank you for your comments back to me. I understand everything you are saying. I also had to by-pass my (ex)husbands leadership so that our son would be raised in a Christian home. It was hard to do but I had to make sure that he would be raised knowing about Jesus and learning about His love and salvation. I am very blessed to say that I am homeschooling him with a very nice Christian curriculum. He was saved early on and knows a lot of Bible stories. We talk about Jesus everyday and we know that He leads our home.


  78. phpatato says:

    As for this topic all I can say is WOW!!! There have been many many comments that I have fully agreed with. Each one has said something different but each has hit the nail right on the head.

    I love that we all aren’t just eyes or just hands or just gallbladders. I love that each one of us brings something different to the table and each comment is so worthy of being said.

    Thank you Mart!!!!

  79. Regina says:

    Good Evening All
    I’ve read some of the comments in this blog and found them very insightful. I appreciate all who’ve shared their thoughts and opinions on this blog topic.

    I agree with Poohpity’s statement,
    “I have heard it said by some males that having a relationship with Christ is a crutch although quite the opposite seems to be true because it takes a lot of moxy and intelligence to worship an Omnipotent, Omniscience, Omnipresent God.”

    I think it mirrors Mart’s statement,
    “In either case, what’s bad is leaving the impression that it doesn’t take superhuman strength, courage, risk, initiative, sacrifice, and character to be a Christ-like man or woman.”

    So, if Murrow was trying to make the point that men need the Holy Spirit’s help in order to be Christ-like in character, personality, how they treat/respond to their wives, their children, their friends, extended family members, other people, etc., I agree. Women need the Holy Spirit’s help for the same reasons.

    Also feel that Murrow was trying to say that “masculinity” as it relates to Christlikeness is important to men in the same way that “femininity” (as daughters of God) is important to women.

    After reading some of the comments on this blog topic, I have a deeper understanding of the fact that Jesus wants us to love one another the way He loves us. Some of you shared personal testimonies about being in abusive relationships, and I can definitely relate, but to all who stated in this blog that love is the principle thing, I agree. A Bible passage comes to mind…

    1 Cor. 13:1-2, NIV (was going to share the entire chapter, but most, if not all, of you are familiar with this Bible passage)

    1) If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2) If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

    I know that men can love like that and still be masculine (and women too/but feminine) because the Holy Spirit provides the supernatural power to do it. I hope I’m not missing the point that Mart is trying to make because I do understand that Murrow is saying that men outside the church don’t think that they can live up to the “love standard” that’s (seemingly) being set by the church and still hold on to their masculinity. And he’s saying that the church has to do a better job in helping the men on the outside understand that it’s possible to love (one another) with the love of God and still be masculine.

    My thoughts for now… I hope they make sense.

    60’s in Texas today.

  80. oneg2dblu says:

    Mart… maybe if the Bible didn’t refere to the church as the BRIDE of Christ, men could identify more readily. For the use of words, Bride and Bridegroom, do have particular sex oriented connotations in his world.
    The whole male ego would have problems wrapping itself around such.
    Fear, is probably the one most common reasons men avoid church. Fear of losing their current sinful freedoms, lust, power, and the like, that they think are manly.
    It is really more about ignorance of what is expected of them, and Men do have performance issues, you know!
    Not living up to what is expected, sounds devistating to a man, who feels he must be able to man up!
    Putting a bible in his hands, feels foreign to him, as he would rather have a hammer or a barbell!
    They like to do the heavy lifting more than the, Lets all hold hands and pray!
    You could probably get them into a sports areana, where
    they would feel at home, rather than a church with its strange music, and a strange language, like Grace,
    which was always a girls name, and Meekness, which was probably part of her character. Then, there’s this other stuff, Humility, Repentance,and Salvation!
    What’s up with that!
    Where’s my keys! Get me out of here!!
    But, there is one ingreedient that they have no power over accepting, WOMEN!!! God’s perfect gift and helper!
    They can get a man to do just about anything! Just ask Adam! God made them very_________ for just that purpose!
    They have the real power over the male, so God in His Infinate Wisdom, allowed men to be the head of the family, restoring the balance! But the worldly man is too busy lifting wieghts to realise, he doesn’t need his physical strength, he needs God’s Provision, to make him a man!
    Even the biggest badest Grizzly, knows it ain’t worth getting between a mother and her cubs! She is an advisary that is well toothed, and willing to fight to the point of giving up her life.
    When, man finds “that degree of fight” for His Saviour, Jesus Christ. “LOOK OUT LADIES,” for nothing will stop him, not even his women! Praise God!
    So, ladies… the ball may well be in your court, to start courting them, but do it God’s way! Which is holding the carrot out, by just being the Bride of Christ. He can’t resist that, because He is also challenged by the competition as well, and God knows how to make a perfect challenge! Anyhow, we really need to fill the House of God to overflowing! Amen?
    Levity or Lesson? Gary

  81. poohpity says:

    Della my point was that I think at times we hold others to a very high standard that no human person is able to achieve. We have as women a high expectation of men that they may not be able to meet even sometimes we expect more from ourselves and fall short as well. As long as a person is in the process of growth and change without the demand for perfection that is something to look for in the opposite sex. Perfection/Good is not a possibility but only as seen in Jesus Christ. If we do not expect that in others they may find their way into our churches.

  82. marma says:

    Mart, your summary here deserves looking at:

    “Murrow says the pattern is not true of the early church, or in pioneering missions/church plants/start-up ministries, or in some parachurch, and some large church efforts (where there is obvious challenge, active goals, and/or risk). But he does say that ‘Men’s disinterest in Christianity is consistent around the world” as opposed to “roughly equal participation” in Judaism, Buddhism, and Hinduism’.”

    I was in a mission where men were able to decide things and have real input in the ministry (trust me when I say there were also problems…some major…all that glistens is not gold) and where some women had strong ministries and made a difference as well.

    The difference between that situation and a lot of churches is the leadership setup, I think. Many churches are one-man led: the pastor hired as the spiritual expert, with maybe deacons handling the more operational aspects of the church. The women get involved because they are still subject to the pastor, and possibly no threat to his authority. However, getting men involved spiritually may threaten the authority of the pastor. He is the spiritual expert, after all.

    Here’s the thing. What is so different about one pastor and some deacons with the women doing the majority of ministering and the catholic church, which has a priest doing the spiritual thing, with laymen handling operations, and nuns doing the ministering? In both cases, men tend to be pew sitters or involved in stuff like the church soccer or baseball team but pretty much leave the spiritual stuff to the pastor.

    Now, I have to say this isn’t true of all churches but I would make a guess based on the churches I have attended through the years, of most. Possibly an exaggeration and an over simplification. There is a lot of enabling going on between both the congregation and the pastor in this kind of setup.

  83. marma says:

    Okay, I think my post was harsh. If the administrator wants to delete, that is fine.

    Need to speak the truth in love, and there wasn’t a whole lot of love there.

    It is easy on a topic like this to see the cup half empty and not see where the cup is half full. As Steve says, there are men, believers in Christ, following Christ and living for Christ in churches, I would not want to besmirch that or cast a neglect that. Praise God for them.

  84. Bob in Cornwall England says:


    I was reminded by your reference to “the bride of Christ” of song of Solomon.

    Song of Solomon 4:10 (Amplified Bible)

    10How beautiful is your love, my sister, my [promised] bride! How much better is your love than wine! And the fragrance of your ointments than all spices!

    There are many such quotes in songs of Solomon to the “sister bride” It seems the churches relationship with Jesus is one more akin to a big brother, but he is also one with His church and will one day “consumate” this relationship by the act of marraige, thus becoming totaly one with all of us.

    Our litle church is mainly run by women who are quite elderly, but they do not hog the lime light but willingly give way to a mans authority.


  85. foreverblessed says:

    If you are a financée, you are madly in love with your husband to be, you thoughts are full of Him, you always want to be with Him, in fact your heart burns for Him.
    If your lover likes rock, you sing rock with him, if he likes classical music, you try to learn to appreciate it too.
    It does not matter in what way, as long as you are togethere with your Lover.

    Is it the church that has to change, finding their first love again, (Revelation 2 and 3 letter to the churches)
    or is it the men that have to change?
    Probably both..
    Because if men are full of this love for Jesus, they would have made prayer groups and pray for the Revival of their church. They would in their own home seek God with all their hearts and all their souls.

  86. foreverblessed says:

    Is my heart burning for Christ? male or female, it does not make a difference.

    As the topic has moved on I feel to add this exhortion by a renowned preacher:

    For me to live is Christ. philippians 2:1

    The believer did not always live to Christ. He began to do so when God the Holy Spirit convinced him of sin, and when by grace he was brought to see the dying Saviour making a propitiation for his guilt. From the moment of the new and celestial birth the man begins to live to Christ. Jesus is to believers the one pearl of great price, for whom we are willing to part with all that we have. He has so completely won our love, that it beats alone for him; to his glory we would live, and in defence of his gospel we would die; he is the pattern of our life, and the model after which we would sculpture our character. Paul’s words mean more than most men think; they imply that the aim and end of his life was Christ—nay, his life itself was Jesus. In the words of an ancient saint, he did eat, and drink, and sleep eternal life. Jesus was his very breath, the soul of his soul, the heart of his heart, the life of his life. Can you say, as a professing Christian, that you live up to this idea? Can you honestly say that for you to live is Christ? Your business—are you doing it for Christ? Is it not done for self- aggrandizement and for family advantage? Do you ask, “Is that a mean reason?” For the Christian it is. He professes to live for Christ; how can he live for another object without committing a spiritual adultery? Many there are who carry out this principle in some measure; but who is there that dare say that he hath lived wholly for Christ as the apostle did? Yet, this alone is the true life of a Christian—its source, its sustenance, its fashion, its end, all gathered up in one word—Christ Jesus. Lord, accept me; I here present myself, praying to live only in thee and to thee. Let me be as the bullock which stands between the plough and the altar, to work or to be sacrificed; and let my motto be, “Ready for either.”
    C.H. Spurgeon, morning devotion januari 7

  87. oneg2dblu says:

    foreverblessed… your words empower all those who can find context in them, for God has wriiten within them. You clearly have the right response, to me, for the Heart that Our God Provies, through this new life, in Him!
    All Paul’s words have within them, God’s Voice, for me also. Be Bleesed!

  88. oneg2dblu says:

    Bob in Cornwall… I was not familiar with the sister/bride
    take in the Amplified Bible. I do like having the extra that it can provide. Thanks for sharing that comment on the Bride wording. There is, I suppose a different take on every word,
    and when we don’t give specific applicatiion, it may be misconstrued. In my use, the word sister would also be gender specific about the church, in relation to Christ!
    I guess evey bride could also be a sister to someone, but to the bridegroom, it had better not be! LOL Gary

  89. Charis says:


    I really have to object to the characterizations of “skunk”, “wolf”, and “low life” and repeat that my husband is not alone among pew sitters and pulpit pounders. I have read statistics (see BlazingGrace) that 50% of Christian men are addicted to Porn. A Pastors.com survey found that 54% of pastors had visited a porn site in the past year and 30% had done so within the past month. A Leadership Magazine poll found that of the pastors responding, 12% admitted to committing adultery.

    I think God is sad that my husband and others like him remain in captivity to trading his inheritance for a temporary fix. They are prodigal sons, and part of me thinks that men who have an aversion to the church might be better off. If a hospital had an atrocious record on seeing to the healing of people who went there, would you recommend it to people?

    I went through seasons of anger where I want to spew skunk & low life. But I don’t think it creates an environment conducive to their release from the bondage that they are in. To springboard from the Laodicean church in Rev 3 again, they are captive, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. They seek intimacy in a counterfeit. I would point them to Jesus’ remedy:

    “I counsel you
    to buy from Me gold refined in the fire,
    that you may be rich;
    and white garments,
    that you may be clothed,
    that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve,
    that you may see.
    As many as I love,
    I rebuke and chasten.
    Therefore be zealous and repent.
    Behold, I stand at the door and knock.
    If anyone hears My voice and opens the door,
    I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
    To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. Rev 3:18-21

    I have always heard vs 20 “behold I stand at the door and knock” preached as an evangelistic message, but the way I read it, He is standing outside, knocking on the door of people WITHIN THE CHURCH, with the promise of TRUE intimacy “I will come in and dine with you” and “I will grant to sit WITH ME on my throne”.

  90. foreverblessed says:

    About “My sister My bride” Song of Solomon 4:12
    See how much Jesus loves us, He is so full of us,
    by the incarnation He has become bone of our bones, and flesh of His flesh, He is so kin to us, and we to Him.
    BUt He sooo looks forward to being with us,
    (see this evening meditation of Spurgeon)
    Lets be full of His love, and passionate about being with Him, lets have nothing else that distracts us from Him, not even the state of the church, or the state of my fellow christian, lets look at my own state, and see it is full of Him, and rests in Him..
    (good night all)

  91. oneg2dblu says:

    foreverblessed… I understand completely, your saying, “Let’s be full of His love, and passionate about being with Christ and have nothing else that distracts us from Him.” I totally agree, and how wonderful that blissfull state will be, as it is coming, ever closer!
    But, if we are not distracted by those “other things” you mentioned, the state of the church, other Christians, and our own state, we should be at lease be as “Concerned as Paul,” was about those very same things, or we miss “his entire message” he sent to the churches in his Epistles,about not becoming complacent with that penetrating evil, when not recognised, or resisted, it will cause the people of God, and cost the people of God, much despair and destruction, from within!
    So, “me thinks,” we need to be Ever Vigilent about those very things as well! Paul’s Warnings are very specific for a reason! Be Blessed, Gary

    Our world today is full of distraction, some healthy and some very destructive! Without judging, we need to discern and expose the wrong, and embrace right, in all things!
    If we turn the cheek on evil, and allow it to grow, it will have its way with us! Amen!

  92. oneg2dblu says:

    SFDBWV… Steve, I think that what you said as “not the point” a while back, “There are good and Bad People out there in the world. The good and bad behavior is about their heart and their conscience and adherence to being obedient to God or not… IS EXACTLY THE POINT, on why men are not coming to church, and Bob’s point… that it is the youth as well, who are leaving! In the church at large today, we supposedly have Christians who claim to be Saved, but they are still helpless,drunks,druggies,gamblers adulterers, pedifiles,and the full gammot of sexually immorallity, liars, cheaters, divorcers, and the rest of the wrongly motivated helpless wordly behaviors, and YET, they still call themselves Christian. To the world WE look like a fake,and a fraud, for we have not “cleaned up” our own house! Nothing gets more exposure than a Fallen Pastor who leads a large flock! That stuff is “big news” for the world, who can’t see any real significant change in the GOOD NEWS, for all the BAD NEWS of Christian’s behaviors.
    Something is very wrong with that! They see failed families, dead beat dad’s, wild children, unconfessed sins running rampid, and WE are trying to sell them a better way? They see a farce…AMONG US!!!
    Because, apparently “nothing changes” for some of us, and that hurts us all!
    We are so busy turning the cheek to our own filth,
    so they see “no reason” to give up their weekends, for a dead end, false looking salvation promise, that changes nothing in many of the behaviors, of many Christian believers.
    Truth is, we all know it, and it goes unattended for we don’t want to hurt the feelings of others! Satan is having a heyday with this religion called Christianity!
    Those of us who know that only a Relationship IN CHRIST, will change us into something other than just being our-helpless-selves! WE WHO HAVE OVERCOME MUCH, HAVE MUCH MORE TO OVERCOME! GOD HELP US!
    Bad behaviors can’t build up a Good Churches!
    We need to PRAY for GOD to Awaken His Church and Clean Up His House! Then It will Overflow with Overcomers!
    Unfortunately, our country is going down the same path,
    from being a Strong Christian Nation, to a worldly, and comprimised, lukewarm state of helplessness!
    We are going to be spat out, if nothing changes!
    Silent, cheek turners, have no voice, and take no action, and SATAN SMILES at that!
    I know this ALL sounds so negative, but sometimes the truth is very hard to swallow. So, deception looks real fine, as the easy alternative! We are told, to do nothing but rest, and be youself! Sounds like that IS what we have been doing for too long already!

  93. foreverblessed says:

    you write:
    “We are told, to do nothing but rest, and be youself”
    If I may I want to correct you in what you write:
    Coming to rest in Christ is crucial for a real christian.
    Unless you are totally calm en peaceful, and at rest in daith In Jesus, you can be an effective christian,
    If you are restless by the state of the church or by the behavior of your fellow chirstian, you cannot be an effective tool in Gods hand, you cannot hear the Voice of God speaking to you.
    You must return to God, seek His face, till you are totally calm again, and God’s peace runnig like a river through you.
    God’s Life flows through us, and cleanses us, not all at once, but deeper and deeper, hidden things in obscure places of our soul come slowly in His LIght and are cleansed.
    So if we come to rest in Christ, we will not stay the same, we will not be ourselves, the we who oare ourselves will be exposed to God’s life.

    But if we are unsettled about people around us, whether our fellow christian or fellow countrymen,
    It is not doing nothing, we must focus on God, and that takes action on our side.

    Just reread your comment on januari 6, 1.42 pm.

    I do believe though that there is need of change.
    Like a discernment of spirits, I think Marma once asked for praying for this gift. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11
    As you say, the sexual misdeeds of christian leaders, they could be well be addicted to sex, it could be they have to be freed from a sexual spirit. These people need help, they need deliverance. Christians who have a gift in this matter need to attend them.
    It is better to seek rest, and let God lead you in what area you can be an effective tool in His Hands, and it also could take 10 or 20 years till God has you as He wants you before you can act in His Spiritual realm.
    So, yes, then it looks on the outside as if you are doing nothing, while in the spirit realm, your life is being rooted and grounded in Christ, for future effectivity.

  94. oneg2dblu says:

    foreverblessed… I love your voice for the things of God. You have real directed passion, full on for Him!
    I do trust in your words, as they are also found in His Word. God does “change us.” He did change me as well! “For at one time,” I did not care if those who called themselves Christian led Holy lives or not!
    For, it had no effect on me, I was an unchanged person who also called himself one! BUT NOW…
    I do care, and don’t follow the “anything goes” attitude anymore. If Paul sat back, and turned his cheeck instead fo giving a strong reproach about evils that lurk around us, we would have a very lukewarm message for the world. It would be just as accepctable to the unsaved, as the Saved for Him crowd, that do not change anything in themselves, having no apparent fruit
    for the world to see, but, only remaining in their bad behaviors. A form of self supported helplessness, because of a mind set, they now can DO NO WRONG in God’s EYES, because they are SAVED! Bad Theology to me!
    Taking every Word that Stands against Evil, flee from the devil,and to hate evil, IS THE CONTEXT!!!
    The people who carry the “BE YOURSELF” attitude, they foster “no need” to change in those who are currently unchanged! I have a slight problem with that thinking, as you must be, BORN AGAIN, and in the RENEWING of YOUR MIND, not in being your good old self.
    So, the unchanged, reamin unchanged, and deceived as well! A tree that bears no fruit, NEEDS to change, or be…changed! We are not to hate people, we are to love people, but, we must hate the “evil in them” that does not show any change! They Reek of Unrepentance, and Unbelief, the very “stentch” that God HATES!
    Unfortunately, watered down,and sweet smelling messages,
    don’t hurt them, or do much for them, or God!
    Resting in the “Laurels of Salvation,” should not also be a Forest of Unchanging Deception, hiding the very needed, Renewing Change! Sometimes, I can’t even see the forest, for the pews filled with the so called Saved, who are standing in their unchanged position! The World is Watching, AND waiting! Gary

  95. oneg2dblu says:

    foreverblessed… yes we must rest in Our Lord, finding rest in Him, is critical for our being a strong Christian, for the world will wear us out! But, His Yoke is Easy, His burden is Light!
    The first time I have to sit and watch my Pastor, not get up out of his chair, and not teach us what we need to hear to change us from our complaceincy, “I’m Gone!”, Everybody else is a gonner as well, for THAT IS NOT THE MESSAGE we are called to… for after we rest in Him, WE shouls Hear His Voice,saying, “GO” Into all the World, bringing the Good News. Or,do we could sit back and let others? Just another point of view, Given in His Love, Gary

  96. oneg2dblu says:

    PRAISE GOD, All is not forgotten, or LOST! For God is raising up, out of this complacient world, a New Generation of Followers, on Fire for Him! It is everywehere, growing seen and unseen, as His plan unfolds through the churches who will not buckle under to the “ever-saught new correctness” the world seeks!
    We are so blessed to be able to raise up godly kids who are not fed the junk of the “touchy-feely world” around them, but will STAND FIRM for Righeousness, not political worldly accecptance, but God’s Standards will RULE in THEIR HEARTS!
    As history always repeats itself, we will make a turn back to Him, and the Remnant He now holds, will prevail! We know the rest of the story, we have a revelation of words that will not fail us, for they are given from God for us. But, we must believe, and repent, becuase unbeleiving and unrepentant hearts, are those that are hardened beyond salvation! His Rules, His Word, His Plan, for those of us,who WILL to CHANGE! Gary

  97. oneg2dblu says:

    PS Even as the modern churches apperar to fail, “these children” will change the hearts of their fathers~! Men will come back to God, and the churches will overflow!
    It is Written… This may be out of context for a few, and for that I’m not sorry, but I’m trying to be more understanding as I growing up in God myself! Praise God! Gary

  98. Linda M. Smith says:

    Jesus said He came to seek and save that which was lost. I’m counting on that promise! Thank You, Jesus, our Emmanuel! (As an aside – the word “was” denotes past tense. I love it!)

  99. tburrow says:

    Mart, I agree that we (church) don’t reach out to men in the way Christ would have us to today. I speak to homeless men from time to time and they tell me that the church is one of the last places they go for help to get back on their feet. Could there be a connection? I know some churches that help people in lots of ways, but spiritually speaking in a general sense…could there be a connection? If the broken, homeless man can’t trust us, then maybe the only ones that can are the…proud…? God opposes the proud, right? Gives grace to the humble? Thanks Mart, for giving us something to think about. God bless you!

  100. dallison says:

    This is an article about the problem of men’s aversion to attending church.
    We know that all of humanity has an aversion to obedience to God’s revealed will, or, in other words, that we all carry the inherent propensity to sin against God and others. This we know to be the sin nature, and all sin has in it the very essence of pride, whether it is in regard to church attendance or any other matter of obedience.
    But pride can be broken down into various broad categories, as characteristic of various personality types. Among such are the aspirations and delusions of possessing superior attributes such as:
    (1.)greatness (e.g. unusual giftedness or creativity, having special privileges, superior intellect),
    (2.)moral excellence (e.g. in outward behavior, purity of thoughts, and polished mannerisms),
    (3.) vindictive triumph (e.g. haughty arrogance in chivalry, competitiveness, drive, and determination to achievement),
    (4.)self-effacing qualities (e.g. willingness to please, being unselfish, consideration of others feelings (ironically, what is NOT pride)),
    (5.)resignation (e.g. being aloof from society, nonconformity, rebellion, shallow living, above conflicts).
    Besides the fact that it is hard to correlate much of these traits in terms of gender, it is plainly found that these traits are somehow intuitively, or otherwise, experienced as trends, culturally and politically, of any given church congregation, or “church”. To make matters even more confusing, there is not even an agreed-upon idea of what a “church” is supposed to be among what we might consider “all of Christianity” or “the religion of Christianity”. But it would seem that certain church-going denominations, or affiliations tend to be correlated with certain of those traits of pride, seen as congregationally dysfunctional trends as diverse and multiple, across all the American Christian churches.
    In short, the reason(s) for men’s apparent aversion (or affinity) to church attendance is not likely to be tied down to a specific aspect of psycho-social characteristics that are stereotypical of the male gender.
    However, that does not wash away the issue brought up concerning men’s aversion to church attendance as unimportant or insignificant, as a gender concern as well as a spiritual concern. Satan can get us wrapped up as to why it is so, and have as leave the issue at bay for far too long. (He can create many types of scenarios on that score, and all the cultural fixes in the world will not alleviate the problem). The focus of our questioning needs to be (1.)WHY is it so significant from God’s perspective, and (2.)WHAT do we need to do to address it? And the bible provides the answers to both.
    Without going into detail, the bible gives us the hierarchy of instruction for the home. The man, being the head of the woman, also becomes the guardian and protection for that home and family. In the same way, the pastor, being the head of the congregation (at least for many interpretations), becomes the “shepherd of his flock”, and hence the guardian and protection (as well as the church, as a whole) of the man, WITH his wife and children under him, (the home or family). And Christ is over the pastor, etc.. This is the kind of spiritual hierarchy that is missing so much of the time, which is DESPIRATELY needed. This is why it is significant.
    As regarding the second question, or what we need to do to address it, the Lord commanded His disciples to go and make [other] disciples. This means men IN the church helping to bring men OUTSIDE the church (and the kingdom) in to the fellowship (and salvation) of the church. This is primarily the responsibility of men from within the church, and they must be qualified and equipped to do this work.
    Thanks, and I appreciate the many other contributions to this forum.

  101. poohpity says:

    dallison, what if a man does not have the gift of leadership? Do you feel that other Spiritual gifts are gender based and if so where is that written in the bible?
    I understand what is written in Timothy and Titus for direction in the churches for the areas they were in and for families but would you not agree that some woman are also gifted as teachers and leaders as well?

  102. bubbles says:

    Why is it many times when a woman shares what she is thinking, she is labeled a hateful woman, but when a man shares the same thoughts, it is considered being a “man”? I have seen this happen to many women more than once over a period of years.

    This is more of a rhetorical question just thrown out there. . . .

  103. poohpity says:

    I guess I would like to explain why I asked the questions I asked. If men who come into a church and the church teaches that men are to be leaders would that not also seem to be an aversion for them.

  104. Charis says:


    Men and women are different. For instance, did Deb (poohpity) take your comment personally? It appears so to me. Google the words “msnbc Women guilty of feeling too guilty, study shows”. That’s an interesting study about how different men and women are!

    Jesus was misunderstood, slandered, and betrayed. How did He take it? He’s our role model of how to take it when we are interpreted as “hateful”.

    Look at the calling and the *promises* here in 1 Peter 2-3:

    21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

    22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

    23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

    1 ¶ Likewise, ye women, …

    7 Likewise, ye men, …

    8 ¶ Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

    9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a *blessing*.

    10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

    11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

  105. Charis says:

    Notice the “no guile” sandwich (1 Pet 2:22; 3:10). For me, this meant I had to stop being timid and learn to speak up regardless of whether my words were misinterpreted.

  106. poohpity says:

    Charis, I did not take bubbles comment personally. I was writing in response to a thought I had about some men not having the ability to be leaders but the church may push them in that direction that may be why they do not come to church. If you will notice that the time on the posts show that they were written around the same time so I was not able to read hers before mine was written.

  107. Charis says:

    Oh, sorry, Deb.
    That makes sense.

    Aversion on that basis is a healthy thing, IMO.

  108. poohpity says:

    Although bubbles does have a point. When men say things it seems to be important but a woman can say the same thing and it is nagging or cackling, lol.

  109. bubbles says:

    Oh, No. Deb was right. I promise I was definitely NOT speaking of anyone HERE. Please know and understand that. It was the articulation of an observation made over several years–especially in Christian circles.

    No one here was in my thoughts when it was written. It was said more out of confused frustration. It appears that some men take what other men say one way, but IF a woman says the same thing, it is like Pooh said.

    Pooh, thank you for not taking offense. Please know you are respected and it was certainly not directed at you or anyone here.

  110. Charis says:

    I bet Henrietta Meers would let that kind of criticism roll off her like water off a duck’s back. I know I spent way too many years being controlled by the disrespectful judgments of others.

  111. Charis says:

    LOL, bubbles, we cross-posted. I was replying to Deb re the DJ (disrespectful judgment) women get of “nagging” or “cackling”. Or how about “CONTENTIOUS”! Now there’s a Christian PC way to tell a woman she’s a B-word (rhymes with itch)

    Believe me, I hear ya, Ladies!

  112. Charis says:

    Helped me to discover that SARAI means CONTENTIOUS! Being contentious is NOT a bad thing!

    Israel means “he CONTENDED with GOD”. Sarai has the same root in it. Modern Jewish families proudly name their daughters Sarai-Contentious hoping for them to be strong women of leadership.

    So let them call you a nag, contentious, cackle, B-word. . . They think this is BAD but it’s not. It’s a phase of the journey.

    Sarai has her phase of struggling, wrestling and then her name was changed by God to SARAH which means “RULER”. Read Gen 21:9-12. Abraham’s strength was that instead of dismissing her with DJ’s (disrespectful judgments) he checked with God who told him, “listen to your wife; do what Sarah says!”

  113. poohpity says:

    I have found that the only time a person has issue with another person who is intelligent and self assured is when they are not. I think that is one thing that crosses gender lines one way or another. That is what is so appealing to our identity in Christ we are all on equal ground.

  114. poohpity says:

    Gee we have our own little group going on here, ROFL.

  115. EnHui says:

    Hello Mart,

    I’ve been following this blog for a very long time and found it quite a thought provoking and challenging platform to discuss our faith. Thanks! But this one(and the previous blog on masculine and feminine spirit) seems to be full of assumptions and contradictions.

    I haven’t read the books you refer to here, and to be fair by the authors i’m only going to comment based on what you’ve mentioned in the blog and raise a few issues for discussion (to be fair by you i haven’t read any of the later blogs on this topic here as yet, perhaps you may have already clarified some of these issues there).

    I refer to your quote on previous blog- “Ninety-five percent of the senior pastors in America are men, but you could not tell it by the sermons they preach. Weakness, humility relationships, communication, support, and feelings are constantly held up as the ideal values of a Christian… Men get the message that Christ-likeness is synonymous with Mom-likeness.”

    1.Are we discussing male/female church involvement/domination or the influence/domination of masculine/feminine characteristics? perhaps an explanation of what you(and the two authors concerned)mean by these terms would be helpful to avoid misunderstanding.
    If the church is still dominated by more men in leadership (95% pastors) then the argument that men are averse to church attendance doesn’t really carry through.
    If its the male pastors who are actually preaching so called “feminine” sermons then the point that you are trying to raise is about giving prominence to femininity. And I think that is what Murrow was also trying to say. “the church must be marked by a healthy expression of both masculinity and femininity and affirmed God’s design for both”.
    However, I am confused by the fact that you use the terms male/female and femininity/masculinity loosely and interchangeably. -“Neither was he saying that the Bible doesn’t speak to the heart and strength of either men or women.”
    I also don’t see the point why men should feel threatened by this -“that modern Christianity seems to threaten their sense of manhood” – not a very masculine reaction, is it? :) – unless the men referred to here are the extreme sexist types.

    2. you have used highly stereotypical images of gender to discuss the issues here. I’m disappointed that you have also made feminine qualities sound somewhat rather demeaning than masculine qualities.some of the comments also have taken that stance.
    A discussion here of biblical principles is being equated with gender differences purely based on masculinities perceived by “outside male”.

    3.I do hear your point though and what you are trying to say – it is important that every aspect of discipleship and Christ-likeness must be given importance. I agree that the church has concentrated more on the fluffy, soft issues and neglected on the hard, costly issues of following Christ.

    My point is that if Christ is the role model for women and men, then I don’t see why this important issue must be discussed in gendered terms. It is common to both men and women. how will we interpret this in light of Paul’s claim,that in Christ there is no male nor female?

    I was discussing with a female friend the contents of this blog. What she had to say will add another dimension to this discussion. “as a woman
    because of the whole ‘don’t show any emotion or you’ll be mistaken for a weakling’ attitude,i think its a little hard to accept the more vulnerable side of Christs’ teachings”.

    How is the modern Church going to tackle issues in a modern world where gender identities and perceptions continue to create confusions and conflicts?

  116. oneg2dblu says:

    EnHui…What a well balanced,and thought provoking dialoge you present to Mart. Because this is an open forum, I will take the liberty to put my gendered infliction into it, through not “taking a side,” but stepping aside, wishing all of us gain a lesson in keeping the main focus, the main focus,Christ has done the Calling, and men and women, either accept or deny, based on their current spiritual, emotional, and physical balance, or unbalance, not their gender. Faith itself, is not gender specific, but the arguments, the misfindings, and the outcomes, may be gender realted! Thank God that the opposits can also attract! Gary

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