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Can We Admit to Doubt?

Photo by: Guillermo Ossa

A friend recently passed along an article from USA Today titled “Why Certainty About God is Overrated.

The article told the story of John Polkinghorne, a world class physicist who also has the reputation of being a leading voice on the relationship between science and faith.

Polkinghorne maintains that “We don’t believe in quarks because we see them. We believe in quarks because the theories that have quarks in them work.”

The physicist becomes a bit edgier when he says that, in a similar way, theories that have God in them work. While saying he sees enough evidence for God to believe, and to stake his life on those beliefs, he says that if pressed for proof, he cannot be absolutely and objectively sure.

The article, by author Dean Nelson, goes on to suggest that Polkinghorne’s honesty is a welcome admission in a  “modern age doesn’t seem to hold much room for uncertainty or doubt.”  After giving polarized examples from both religion and politics, he says the result of absolute certainty is “a demonizing of one group by the other, a rejection of compromise, and behavior by adults that none of us would tolerate in our children.” Imagine,” he adds, “what that debate might have looked like if someone from either side would have said, as the comedian Dennis Miller used to say at the end of his rants, “Of course that’s just my opinion. I might be wrong.”

Interestingly, I recently read an opinion piece on Foxnews.com by Ian Morgan Cron that described, “Five words [that] could prevent the public brawls between Christians who differ in their opinions on social and theological issues.” Those 5? “But I might be wrong.”

So in an age when “proof” is used by science to mean “observable, measurable, repeatable, certainty,” how much room is there in honest faith for doubt?

Seems to me that we are talking about a range of issues: semantics (requires clarity of what we mean by “doubt”); honesty (who among us can say that we never doubt even those things we stake our lives on); attitudes of humility and love (what many resent is when we require them to live by our certainty).

The Apostle Paul wrote, “I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day” (2Tim 1:12). He was referring to what he had come to believe and know about the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. I resonate with that kind of confidence even though I live with the tension of an “insect-like” mind that occasionally gets stuck on all kinds of thoughts/doubts like “how and why would there even be a God in the first place?”

Then I read the Apostle James who adds that the person who doubts is like a wave of the sea blown and tossed by the wind, and that such a person cannot expect to receive God’s help (James 1:5-8). But I don’t think James is talking about not having an honest doubt. After all, the context is about situations that “test our faith.” How can our faith be tested if there is no thought of doubt that we need to deal with?

I find JB Philips translation of James reasonable. His rendering is that “those who ask God for wisdom must not have secret doubts as to whether we really want God’s help or not.”

So let’s talk about it. What do you think? Can we, like the physicist Polkinghorne, admit that our faith is tested by all kinds of situations that leave us, in some respect, with the lack of “proof” and “certainty”– that requires faith in what we find most reasonable and sure?

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128 Responses to “Can We Admit to Doubt?”

  1. bratimus says:

    If we had 100 percent proof and certainty of the existence of God. Then we wouldn’t be living by or using the word faith. It would be more like living in the knowing or having the knowing of God.

    In a lot of aspects of science there isn’t 100 percent proof and certainty. But we take what we are told with a measure of faith. A good example is Global warming that is called climate change. and There is science on both sides of this now too.

    Having faith is not having a 100 percent proof or certainty. Through faith the knowing of God will come.

  2. Ted M. Gossard says:

    Thanks for posting this, Mart, and for your thoughts. Epistemic humility, it’s called, and good scientists as well as anyone, should have such. You express it well. But like Polkinghorne points out, that doesn’t mean we can’t have some degree of confidence that such and such is true.

    I’ve been criticized for thinking as well as reading (ha) too much and I think for asking too many questions. But I think that is part of acknowledging our own limitations. Without denying what we have come to believe is true and the truth.

  3. SFDBWV says:

    Mart I am sure a lot of work and thought went into the new homepage for RBC. As I read from some it wasn’t too well received at first. For me it doesn’t matter at all, I know how and what to find what I am looking for.

    The old home page was more comfortable, it had a homey like look and feeling, this new one has a no nonsense bare technical look, more practical.

    What I do like about the new one is that it allows for you to showcase your web sites and pushes perhaps some that get lost in the pile.

    What I see showcased most prominently are the various sites that encourage and give hope to people who need that special touch of comfort.

    Rarely is BTA even on the main page, and must be accessed by looking for it on the sidelines or at the bottom of the page.

    For me that is fine, as too often here in the discussions on BTA we can get rather nitty gritty and sometimes create as many questions as we do answers…a clear doorway for some to doubt.

    To discuss doubt, I first must ask what is it we doubt? The existence of God? The existence of Jesus? The Bible? The entire concept of a creator? The ideology of believing in any kind of supernatural existence or deity at all?

    How does our doubts turn into solid faith? How can our doubts then turn into self encouragement and aid those more susceptible to doubt.

    If I change the word doubt into the word question, I am then questioning my beliefs. How then do I answer questions which are mostly based on faith not concrete proofs?

    To begin to answer the question, do we start with the fact that we exist?

    Are we really sure we exist? Can we doubt our own existence?

    Satan brought doubt into the garden when he caused Eve to doubt the warning of God.

    Doubt is the doorway to being deceived.

    In the many imaginings of fallen man even our own existence can come into doubt, for if we don’t believe how special and unique each and every one of us are then we, none of us, have value.

    Here is exactly where Satan wants us to be, to bring us to the point where we hate even ourselves and see no value in our existing at all. With no reason then to hope or love or expect anything except a miserable and unhappy life.

    However even in a discussion about doubt, there is reason to believe that even doubt can turn into a solid unshakable faith.

    Much more later


  4. scotty12 says:

    As long as we’re in this fleshly body on earth there will be shades of doubt when the storm gets rough. Peter, the rock, started sinking in the water when he took his eyes off Jesus. It takes faith to surrender all to our Lord. It takes faith to deny yourself, take up a cross and follow Him. It takes the faith of a little child to jump into the water after his dad says “its alright, I will catch you.” It is written that we are to trust in the Lord with all our heart and lean not on our own understanding. Jesus said those who have not seen and believe are more blessed than the ones who have seen and believe. Praise the Lord!

  5. remarutho says:

    Hello Mart!

    You have exposed the raw nerve of western society over the past 300 years! It is a big deal.

    My “Bible mind” immediately latched onto Paul’s rant in his introduction to the letter to the Romans:

    “For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.” Romans 1:19-21

    Is this one key to Polkinghorne’s humility both in his scientific calling and his faith walk? If a scientist peers deeply into the working of this beautiful world, (s)he comes up with such a heart-full — that like Ellie in space (Contact, the movie), the soul comes up with “such gratitude — with no one to thank,” — unless their is a Creator God.

    If a follower of Christ is called to spread the gospel, then that teacher must allow the power of the truth to hold:

    “If there is motivating evidence, you have to change your view of rationality,” Polkinghorne said. (article in USA Today,Dean Nelson)

    Those who are sold out to Jesus — ordinary, working folk — whether in a scientific or humanities field of work — must live the message of their faith before they make any proposition. No one can make the ontological argument without living it.

    Of course, I could be wrong — I’ve been wrong before.


  6. bullwinkle says:

    The Rest of the Story

    Like so many that visit this site, I have been reading BTA for years and never posted. I have enjoyed so many of your comments and love the heart that expressed on this site.

    For many years I was a skeptic. I met a man who not only had a heart for God, but was an engineer and could make a cogent “argument” in defense of scripture. Each time we would discuss a topic God would bring about verification in some small way over the next few days.

    We began discussing Noah and the global flood that scripture lays out many thousands of years ago. I would agrue that while the earth was most likely covered with water, it would have been millions of years ago.

    Each day Paul Harvey gave his news cast at noon and I always loved listening to Paul. When he led with a report that most scientist agree that a massive flood occurred roughly 6000 years ago, my eyes were opened to the truth of scripture.

    My point is, blind faith might be good for the person who possesses it, but if we investigate, solid evidence exists for the truth of scripture. Don’t be afraid to research history and see how the two line up. Steve does an excellent job of this.

    In Christ,

  7. oneg2dblu says:

    Mart… I’ve read your thought provoking post, but, I doubt it can be answered, without faith in the answers being right. We all ultimately get what we look most.
    I only say this… “If anyone knows the answers, God certainly does!” Sorry for the sardonic wit… but it is all I have left, coming from my naturally Doubting Southpaw, it seems right to me! Gary

  8. florida7sun says:

    Excellent post Mart.

    There is certainty in death. There is certainty in the Word of God. Buried with Christ removes all doubt. Death cancels out doubt. “It is finished,” He said. Faith is a devotion of the heart, not a temporal exercise of the mind.

    The Apostle Paul, dead in Christ, was focused on running the race set before him. He did not waver. He did not doubt. He had a singular focus. The Lord ran with win.

    The Apostle Stephen, dead in Christ, testified of our Savior. He had a singular focus. He saw His Lord standing to greet him in newness of life. What a testimony and glorious picture of God’s faithfulness!

    The tempter works on our flesh, and we need to be in the Word and in fellowship with others that wholeheartedly love the Lord Jesus.

    Thirty years ago, I had lunch with a wonderful friend and well-known evangelist with a national TV ministry. He is now with the Lord and countless others that have preceded us. His revivals and broadcasts led countless thousands to a saving knowledge of our wonderful Savior. I was somewhat surprised then when he questioned me whether he could lose his salvation. Doubt crept into his mind like a slithering serpent. As we opened the Word and prayed together, the Lord dispelled all of his doubt.

    The value of The Lord’s Prayer, remembrance of His death through Communion, fellowship with His Saints, and application of the rich precepts in His Word overcome advances made by the captor of minds… for greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world.

    Do not give Satan a foothold. He looks for weakness.

    My God is an awesome God. He is more than able to remove all doubts. Look… see Him hanging on that cross. He did that for you.

    Love is a consuming fire. His love for us, and our love for Him, removes all doubt and cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

  9. florida7sun says:

    Sorry, for the typo… “The Lord ran with him” (the Apostle Paul).

  10. SFDBWV says:

    For those who study or look into anthropology almost without exception mankind has always believed in a supreme being or beings. In some sort of otherworld or spirit world.

    It is almost a modern phenomenon that people have resorted to believing in nothing except that which they can see or choose to understand.

    Because people have to categorize everything this idea of believing in nothing except themselves is called “Humanism”, and a humanist view of our existence has no place for anything it sees as mythical in which to base its beliefs, understandings and yes its hopes.

    Individually I am sure this idea has been around for as long as men have, but it never took root into society until Darwin wrote his famous book on evolution.

    Darwin a Jew by birth and atheist by choice came along at one of those opportune times in history where modern enlightened mankind had at its disposal the ability to make one mans thoughts known worldwide.

    Darwin, either an agent of evil or a tool of God is debatable along another topic, but the point is that at the coming of this book intellectual man had not openly questioned (doubted) the creation of the world by a creator.

    Darwinism was born and with it worldwide doubt from the people who are at the top of society in every corner of the world. The very people, who govern nations, establish and administrate schools, teachers and educators at every level….literate people.

    For me it begins here, the very basics of belief in God is the belief that He is and that He established everything that exists. To deny creation is to deny God’s existence.

    So where then do we look for conformations that agree with our beliefs?

    God gave us several undeniable truths, all of which come under attack from the same spirit that wants us to deny creation.

    Everything we see with our eyes is a testimony to Him, but the one thorn in Satan’s side is the existence of the Jew and their record of their being a people.

    History has tried to extinguish them as a people time and time again, but their being a people is a proof of there being a God and their record of their story, 66 books written by 40 authors over thousands of years (I have included the NT in those numbers) is the base for our education about God. And so becomes our favorite source of proving what we believe.

    Whereas the Jew had this written history to substantiate their faith, we who call ourselves Christian are given a much more powerful tool to aid us in our beliefs…The Holy Spirit.

    This is a much larger topic and I must present my thoughts in these little segments as time allows, please be patient with me.


  11. SFDBWV says:

    If we can understand that words have power; the power to create as well as the power to convince, we can also agree that words also have the same opposite power; the power to destroy and cause uncertainty…doubt.

    It would seem universal laws of physics apply to everything not just quarks and anti-matter.

    I believe that these *laws* of nature were created by a supreme being we call God.

    I can believe it and stake everything on it because I have *faith*.

    Because I also believe the statement I made about words, I can then say that in words I find conformation of what I believe to be true.

    “Now faith is the evidence of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen”

    I find this statement about faith to be an excellent definition of the word *faith*. If it were only written in a dictionary it still would speak directly to my understanding, but it is found written by a believer in Jesus Christ who is speaking to people thousands of years ago as well as *now*. (Hebrews 11: 1)

    The statement resonates within my heart and finds a strange yet comfortable place in my being; I can not only agree with it but it somehow becomes a part of me.

    Faith is a gift (1 Corinthians 12: 9) and a fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5: 22).

    Jesus says in Mark 11:23 that he that shall not doubt in his heart but believe, the things he says will come to pass.

    As with ancient peoples as well as most today, eternity is written instinctively on the hearts of mankind. I find this truth written and agreed with in the recorded history of the people of God. I find it evident in all the occult followers in today’s world and yes among the many religions of the day.

    So how then do I find the right place to place my faith? If left only to imagination, we end up with all of the idol worship of history and the mysterious and alluring occult beliefs. As well as in the Humanist concept of today, that is not too unlike the people of the Tower of Babel.

    God gives us His written record through a people He chose to establish and through whom He is presented in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. The ancient writing and the story of Jesus are combined into the Book we call the *Bible*.

    When we come to a place where we can believe in the God of Israel and accept the fact that He became the man we know of as Jesus of Nazareth we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Because we believe in our heart that which God has said to be true.

    The Holy Spirit will lead us to all truth, and bear witness of Himself and lead all to Jesus Christ as the One True God.

    How do we know this to be true, because it resonates in our heart and speaks to our spirit and the Spirit in us and they agree. (1 John 5: 1-8)

    How then can we admit to doubt, and when we do what does it really mean?

    More on that tomorrow.


  12. remarutho says:

    Hello Mart & Friends!

    Mart, you wrote:

    –So in an age when “proof” is used by science to mean “observable, measurable, repeatable, certainty,” how much room is there in honest faith for doubt?–

    The thought that has become a “slogan” for persons of Biblical faith is something like: “The Biblical account does not present the ‘how’ of creation, but rather the ‘why.'” The “why” is often found in the lives of persons — like oases in the desert — those whose “joy is complete” in Christ.

    I am deeply grateful for the writer you quoted above, though I am not familiar with her:

    “Most of the people I’ve encountered are looking not for a religion to answer all their questions but for a community of faith in which they can feel safe asking them,” she writes. (Rachel Held Evans in her book Evolving in Monkey Town)

    As we seek the unity of the blessed Holy Spirit in the body of Christ, it seems to me we dwell in the questions. We hold the faith without letting go — and we practice the loving attitude of “think and let think” when it comes to non-central notions of doctrine. It is essential that: Jesus is Lord. The holy Scriptures are authoritative. God is sovereign.

    In Him,

  13. bill34sl says:

    In a way, I don’t see that our faith is being tested by all kinds of situations that leave us with lack of “proof” or “certainty”. In true Christianity, Faith is the “proof” ITSELF. The Bible defines Faith as the substance of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE or PROOF of things not seen (Heb.11:1). Paul admonished the Church in Corinth to have their faith not hinged in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. Romans 1:20 says: “For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly see, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse”. Either science could not comprehend this or would not admit it.

  14. davids says:

    First, I want to correct something. Darwin was not Jewish. He was baptized as an Anglican, but mainly raised Unitarian. He was given a funeral in Westminster Abbey and is buried there.

  15. davids says:

    I was agnostic for most of my life until God called me. Through Our Daily Bread and Stroebel’s “The Case for Christ” I came to weigh the evidence and believe.

    As Mart mentions, there are semantic issues. I would say that there is a vertical aspect: how much of what the Bible says do we take as physical, biological, and historical fact? And there is a horizontal aspect: at times I have doubts about the basic tenents of my faith.

    Having a couple of teenagers around helps to keep one humble. They bring up the difficult issues of faith, like why God allows teenagers to take their own life.

    Sometimes I have doubts, but I am not doubtful. As Steve pointed out, faith is a gift. I pray to God for faith, excercise faith through daily devototion, and spend time with others in worship and fellowship, so that my faith might remain strong.

  16. poohpity says:

    There have been several times that I have had doubts. One of the biggest times was when I went to Africa to minister to those children that had lost their parents to the AIDS pandemic. The villages had maybe three adults to 20 or 30 children of which none were their parents. Eating only one meal a day and walking around in the winter with no shoes or jackets. I asked God where are you in all this. God’s answer to me was I am using you to be my arms for hugs and each person that donates to that ministry for help with clothing, education and food. God heard their cries for help.

    I thought at one time my doubts were a bad thing but God used those times to help my faith grow. Reading the bible I also saw how many times that even those closest to the Lord, after witnessing all the miracles, still found they had doubts and little faith. It seemed that the Lord did not condemn them but continued to work in their lives until their faith continued to grow and blossom.

    The faith the Lord has given me continues to be tested to learn more and more each day to trust and depend on Him. With each experience I learn it is all OK in our relationship because over time it all grows if our hearts do not become hard. Like a spoiled child when I can not have my way I get humbled to wanting what His will is not my own and I may not understand the why’s of circumstances but I can see God’s hand by knowing Him better and better.

  17. remarutho says:

    Yesterday, I joined the family at the bedside of one who is dying. Hospice angels come and go with blessed morphine, oxycodone, mouth swabs…We sing “The Old Rugged Cross” and I recite and sing the 23rd Psalm. I know music penetrates the fog of memory loss and pain and anxiety; it is buried so deeply in the brain. I do not doubt it. Jesus is near. He was already here when I came in. He will remain when I leave.

    Some weep. Some cannot stay because death is so oppressive. If the singing and the hearing of Scriptures do not bring comfort in these hours and days, I have nothing in myself, hands, heart or mind, that can give peace.

    “For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person — though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die — but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” (Romans 5:7-8)

    What I believe and what I doubt do not matter in this old gentleman’s room. We are attending a birth. I am sure all 6.7 billion souls on this planet will be propelled through this birth canal sooner or
    later. “For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened — not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has preparded us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.” (2 Corinthhians 5:4-5)

    The river of life — the kingdom of God and his Christ — are so near. At last some can see it. Some will never see it. It is not my call. Jesus is always calling: “Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)

    In His love,

  18. SFDBWV says:

    Davids, thanks for the correction, it is one of those errors I had read that stuck.

    Maru, thank you for being friend to the man you spoke of and a comfort to him and his family. Friends are a rare commodity especially when things get bad.

    I also agree that when we address lofty or spiritual issues they shrink when compared to the realities of life and death, of suffering and pain.


  19. florida7sun says:

    Absolute certainty is not demonizing one group against another. Love does not demonize. Satan does, and this is the realm in which he roams.

    Christians are in the world, but we are no longer of the world.

    “Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; He is the faithful God, keeping His covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love Him and keep His commands.” – Deuteronomy 7:9

    Every breath we take is a demonstration of God’s love for us through Christ Jesus; and an opportunity to share His Gospel to a world in pain crying out for understanding and redemption.

    “Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
    Look full in His wonderful face,
    And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,
    In the light of His glory and grace.’ – Helen H. Lemmel

    The Cross divides heaven from hell. The Word incarnate, shredded by sinful man, hangs there with arms outstretched. Truly, truly he said. “I am the way, the truth, and the life.”

    He gave ALL for my salvation, and I rejoice to be in His presence. He sustains me. He comforts me. He gives me peace.

  20. SFDBWV says:

    So now I bring my long dialog to our topic *doubt*. My first thoughts remain the same; doubt what? Part of our faith, some of the things the Bible say, everything, and nothing?

    Can I fully accept what the entire Bible says, doubting nothing?

    Mart’s topic title is “Can We Admit to Doubt?”

    I have to say that if we doubt, then we most certainly must admit it, for to not admit it is a lie we harbor in our heart and that little seed can and will grow into a much worse case.

    If we can admit we have a doubt about any area of our faith then we have an obligation to search out an answer to address that doubt and put it to rest.

    Our friend davids is right on when he says he spends time in fellowship with others so that his faith can remain strong.

    This is essential for believers, to surround themselves with other believers to feed their faith with the Word of God and most important of all spend time alone in prayer with God. He will provide you the strength you need in order to maintain the faith He gives.

    Many times we discuss the warfare we are in. As time grows nearer to Christ’s return the warfare is getting much more intense. Our adversary plays dirty and attacks our weakest points. He uses every weapon at his disposal and today his armory is filled with lies and distractions.

    His intent is to discredit God, to not only discredit Jesus but to oppose Him at every level. He is a destroyer and the destruction of our faith renders us a useless witness and our testimony mute.

    He wants to silence us, so that just as when he influenced the crowd at Jesus’ trial to call out another name, our voice is overwhelmed by those under his influence.

    Can you boldly make a statement, if there is doubt in your mind? Can you make a good argument if there is doubt in your voice?

    I want to say that if you have doubts turn them into questions that God will answer. If your answer is not what you want to hear, pray for strength to accept God’s will and trust Him to know more than you.

    Hold tightly to the truth of what God has promised, especially when your heart is broken and you have no more strength to go on.

    Living in this broken and pain filled world is struggle enough, don’t add to your struggle by doubting what God has said…..Believe Him and be at peace.


  21. poohpity says:

    Mart, you asked, “How can our faith be tested if there is no thought of doubt that we need to deal with?” I do not believe that faith grows unless there is a doubt that needs to be confronted. There have been many times when circumstances have been such that I have had to step out into the unknown without anything visibly going in the right direction but only what the Lord has said in “Trust me”. I have had no physical or mental strength to accomplish and at times even lack the ability to think straight but just take that one step, take that one little step and see what will happen then I learned that my trust was not given in vain.

  22. encouragemaart says:

    Solomon was the wisest man. He came to this conclusion: Everything under the sun is meaningless with out God. If Satan can get you to doubt that God exists and thus turn your days meaningless he will think himself successful. I believe God allows this at times for our benefit. There are many who have come to believe in God by trying to prove he does or does not exist.

    I can say with certainty that God exists only because of my relationship with him. Since every individual needs to forge their own relationship with him, one can only prove that God exists to him or herself.
    When I share my personal experience with you and it moves you to talk to God for yourself, I have become a fisher of men. God uses the many different experiences of his servants like a fisherman uses different kinds of bait, depending on what he is trying to catch.

  23. jimgroberts says:

    Knowledge is the acceptance of information received by all senses as agreeing with a concept. When you do not accept all of senses information then you have a doubt. Of course you can prioitise the senses to discount contradictory or lack of information. When you have faith in something such as a set of rulles/morals/ethics then it is possible prioritise it to the preclusion of all the senses. In the case of the christian we have a sixth sense called the spirit which we train to confirm our interpretation of the rules…[the bible]. If our spiritual awareness is strong we will not suffer from doubts. If you have doubts go to God who has said “If you ask your Father how much more will He give you the Holy Spirit”. I have faith as the spirit moves me so that I do not have to rely on my own understanding, eyes and ears. “He who has an ear listen listen listen to what the spirit says”

  24. rogerswife45 says:

    I’m not so learned as some people here or, I guess, as faithful. I’m just me, plodding along trying to keep a grip. I can’t say I don’t have doubts about things now and again, and I’d rather be free to say it. If I’m not, than I’m just a hypocrite covering a false heart. I hope, though I struggle all the time, that I have come at least far enough to be honest about what I believe and question what I’m not sure of. I figure God gives his answers in time, not necessarily today. Sometimes, He has to keep saying what he’s saying to me, because my heart forgets, and I find myself thinking the same things again and again. I’m certain, though, that it is my mind and heart that cause the problem, not God, but it doean’t mean the problem isn’t there. I guess I’d rather doubt and search for a truth, than not admit the doubt and live a lie. I know God’s probably disappointed with this comment, but that’s likely not the first time where I’m concerned, so I’ll just keep trying. I do believe, however, that He does love me in spite of myself.

  25. foreverblessed says:

    Rogerswife45, it is beautifull what you wrote, it touched my heart! Thanks for posting!
    Just looking at matter, there would be none if God did not exist. Just these little particles that travel with the speed of light around a small other particle, isn’t that amazing, just a big miracle on itself.
    Why do I still doubt whether God has everything that concerns me personally in His Hands?
    I too, pray each day for more faith, more trust in Him, that I will be as a small child comfortable in His Hands. Fully trusting that my dad, and my mom, so to speak, will take care of everything, that nothing that I need will be lacking, that all my steps are in His handpalm.
    I go to bed and rest assured of His care.
    The night Psalm 4, Psalm 4:8

  26. poohpity says:

    rogerswife45, I simply love honesty and that is I’m sure what God loves too because He already knows what is in our hearts. It just takes us to admit to things then that is when He can work with us to grow our faith and help us in our doubts. :-)

  27. remarutho says:

    Hi Rogerswife —

    You wrote:

    “God gives his answers in time, not necessarily today. Sometimes, He has to keep saying what he’s saying to me, because my heart forgets, and I find myself thinking the same things again and again.”

    How much I relate to God having to keep saying what he’s saying to me…Me too! Sometimes I just smack my own forehead and say “How could I forget?!” Thank heavens the Bible is still there — I don’t have to memorize all of it, or know all about it. At least, for me, I can go back and read it again — and pray the Lord will change my heart and mind.

    Thanks for your honest, insightful post!


  28. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Rogerswife – I don’t see how God could be disappointed with your comment. It was open and honest and humble. I think God loves us all in spite of ourselves. :)

    I have to admit that sometimes I wonder is it really all true? I have many, many questions that I don’t think will ever be answered this side of heaven and I can live with that. I trust God with what I don’t know. I echo what foreverblessed says: “I too, pray each day for more faith, more trust in Him.”

    I know that now we only see in part. 1 Corinthians 13:12-13 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

  29. yohanjohnkunnenkeril says:

    We do need to get “real” and not acknowledging doubt is to invite an “the emperor has no clothes on” situation, the emperor being ourselves or at least myself!.
    Yet, we should not allow ourselves to “wallow” in doubt.
    A favorite verse is “My Lord and My God” which Thomas says,with conviction after doubting Him;p another is “have I been with you long and yet you have not known me ?” which Oswald Chambers says is not a rebuke, but an invitation to draw closer to Him, and then we will not have any doubts. I’ve tried it, it works and I am on my way, being real ! It is not for nothing that He has the supreme confidence to say ” Come to me, and I will give you rest” (from your doubts et al, and enable you to live, really live ). After all, He is the “Truth, Way and Life”

  30. Regina says:

    Good Evening All

    Hope all is well with you and that everyone had a safe and Happy Labor Day.

    Been a little busy and distracted by chores, work, etc. Serious wildfires burning in Texas right now. I’m not in harms way, but my heart goes out to the people who are. Please keep Texas in your prayers.

    Mart, I love the picture of the butterfly! It’s beautiful! :-)

    Sunny and warm in my neck-of-the-woods today (79 degrees right now).

  31. timothy55 says:

    I am a thinker like John Polkinghorne. I think there are times I think too much. Occasionally, I find I have a totally have wrong view of something, when I was sure I was correct, and it scares me to think how easily my mind can be fooled. Often when I come to one of those realizations, I pray for the Lord to keep me from being deceived about Him. It scares me to read about the Pharisees who were so sure they were right, but were working to kill the Truth when He disrupted into their tidy world view. Because I see others who are deceived but sure of themselves, and know I have been deceived on some topics, I have doubts, but a certain level of doubt in yourself keeps one humble. It keeps me studying the Word, and trusting my Savior rather than my intelligence for my salvation. Sometimes I pray, “Lord, I believe and trust You for my salvation to the best of my understanding. I throw myself on your mercy and grace, trusting you to bring me to you.”

    I think there are people who rely on faith sooner. They don’t think as much, but just trust. That is the way God make them, and they don’t sweat about proving what they believe.

    I am more sure than I was in the past. I find that the more you stretch yourself in the service of your Lord, the more you see Him work and your faith becomes stronger. I think Paul could be so sure of the One in whom he had placed his trust in II Timothy 1:12 because he had been forced to trust his Lord through some dangerous situations. I believe he was “persuaded” by experience. I too have found my Savior faithful through many years of service, and I have fewer doubts because my faith has been tested and found secure.

  32. hamer says:

    Can we admit to doubt? Well, since it is born of man and women of whom we say are our original ancestors I would say we definitely have ownership in the word. Chapter three of Genesis tells the story, of how the serpent deceived Eve, who deceived Adam. Deceiving brought forth doubt which we gave birth too and still do by our actions or lack of them. Because of that doubt we became separated from God. Yet God in His wisdom took doubt and used it then as He does today to bring fourth His Glory. So what was born to separate us from God, He now uses it to bring us back to Him. Just think without doubt God would not have had to send His Son to reconcile us to Himself. Doubt brought us Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit the revelation of God Himself.
    I have learned to embrace doubt in myself and others, for it is a door that God can use to enlighten us and strengthen us. It is very much a common place in which we can share with others, which give us the ability to share our God who is their God whom they well meet as we displace our doubts.
    The question might be “Can we afford not to admit doubt?”

  33. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Hamer!

    Oh yeah! You are on to something, no doubt! (sorry for a lame pun)

    You wrote:

    “Yet God in His wisdom took doubt and used it then as He does today to bring fourth His Glory.”

    How many times have I sat before a seeming contradiction in the ways of our God? Did the coming of Christ in the flesh happen on account of events, or was there actually no other plan from the foundation of the world? We could argue it either way, if argument is our pleasure.

    I once had a teacher who was a huge intellect. I admired him then, and still do. He used to say that he “came to faith when he was gored on the horns of a paradox.” I always wondered what that creature looked like. It seems to me the thing looks something like *doubt bringing forth God’s glory*. I recall Jesus saying something very like that (John 13:31) when Judas slipped out of the house to go to the temple officials to betray him.

    Thanks Hamer!

  34. oneg2dblu says:

    Can we admit doubt? Yes, but then we will doubt even our own admission. Adam was not decieved, Eve was! Adam Disobeyed God for he “heard and saw” that Eve was still alive, and she was now tempting him as well. He gave into this temptation, believing her falsehoods, her saying it was good.. He took the easy road, claimed her way of thinking, her preaching, “It tastes good and it does not kill you!” But then came his fall, from “following her words,” instead of God’s.
    This is exactly how false teachers and their false doctrines, work today. We believe it because it tastes good or right to us, and we then take the fall of our corrupted belief system, by not believing God’s Original Word.
    Paul tried through God’s Word to warn us,to help us to follow what “he taught” as the gospel. But today many have found an easy way out for their sin’s consequence, by believing “something other” than what Paul taught. Before Paul’s teaching, many of the newer doctrines we believe today, Did Not Exist!
    They were birthed in the 4th and 5th century by a spiritually dead following. That following can be found in the Catholic Churches, Saint Augustine, and the practices “HE” brought with him into that Church and many other churches follow along today. Eternal Savation, or Once Saved Always Saved, is one of those new doctrinal teachings, another is “His” praying for the Dead, which the Catholic Church holds fast to today, through the lighting of candels and such. Mary Worship is also brought into play through this same “Not of Paul” type teaching. You see, everyone who follows these other gospels, are already spirtually dead themselves, and only through trueRepentance, which is a Turning Away from them, can a falsely led believer ever close the Enormous Chasim that now separates you from God by allowing the Holy Spirit to help you discern the “real gospel” from the Created by Augustine one. I’m not sorry it had to be me being used by God today, to bring this Good News to you . There is still time for you to get Right with God, and get back to the original teaching that “IS” in the Holy Scriptures.
    Sin always Separates you from God, your Salvation is not the cure for this separation, Repentance and turning away from false teaching and its tainted belief system is. May God Honor this teaching of His Holy Word
    given to those who will hear it, and Obey.
    In His Service, Gary

  35. poohpity says:

    In our relationship with anybody if we want to know something about them we may tend to ask someone else what they think rather than going directly to the source but as James points out when we want wisdom about God we would be better off by asking God for wisdom. I wonder if James did not have first hand information and answers because he himself asked God for wisdom and God answered him, that is why he asked us to not doubt but to ask and God would gladly grant our request if we do not doubt. I guess the only way to find out is to ask for ourselves and be open to listening for answers. Rather than arguing about different points and trying ourselves to be right it might be the wise thing to do to ask the source. Do we know that the unseen God will answer our requests or do we doubt that God who is above all things and knows all things will respond to us as surely as the rains brings forth growth?

  36. bratimus says:

    As i read these comments know one has brought up Doubting Thomas, or i might have missed it.

  37. gerpie says:

    Gary – I am wondering where in the Word of God you got your last paragraph from?? You mention Paul’s letters – did you get it from them because I know of no where in his letters where he says anything whatsoever like what you wrote?? Donna

  38. poohpity says:

    Salvation is the ONLY cure for separation from God by sin! Of course the bible could be wrong but John 3:16-17 says, “For God loved the world so much that He gave His only Son so that anyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. God did not send His Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it(LAB). Of course some will doubt the truth of the bible. I would question who it truly is you are speaking for Gary if that is really what you believe.

  39. poohpity says:

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4; 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 is our warning for any other gospel than Jesus alone plus nothing for salvation.

  40. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Bratimus – I noticed that “yohanjohnkunnenkeril” brought up Thomas yesterday evening. 8:21 pm my time. I don’t know what time it would be for people in other time zones.

    It’s a good point to bring up. Jesus gave Thomas that extra proof that he asked for.

    Ephesians 2:4-10

  41. remarutho says:

    Hello Gary!

    You wrote:

    “May God Honor this teaching of His Holy Word
    given to those who will hear it, and Obey.”

    I have to ask you whether you doubt that Jesus said, just after Judas left the supper to go to the Sanhedrin to betray him for 30 pieces of silver, “…Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him.” (John 13:31)

    The temple leadership was a large, powerful group of those who largely doubted that Jesus was the Messiah — that he was the Son of God. Out of their doubting, they pulled several political maneuvers that led to Jesus’ death on a Roman cross. Jesus defeated death and rose glorified — after those doubters did their worst. Just as Jesus said “the Son of Man was glorified, and God was glorified in him.” He made that prophecy just as his betrayer was going to those temple officials.


  42. Dinakar says:

    One of the best characters in the Bible is Abraham to see him walk in faith in Genesis is rewarding. It seems in a very practical way he was relying on God in every inch of his life. To follow in this way is a walk of faith, to live a life of faith is the basics of our faith.
    When we don’t do so it gives rise to doubt and fear. In my life the days I have relied on the world more than on God have subsequently left me wondering if there is a God at all.

    Sure proof from science is good to know but it will never substitute my faith nor can it ever.


  43. florida7sun says:

    There is Truth, and there are lies (deceptions) that germinate doubts that pull us away from the Truth.

    Jesus is the Truth… the Whole Truth. There is no other Truth.

    “Study the Word,” Paul told Timothy and encouages us to do likewise. – 2 Timothy 2:15

    Do not allow the father of lights, the enemy of our souls, a foothold to build upon. He did that to Pilate who could no longer comprehend the truth. “What is truth,” he exclaimed. That is the condition of the world today, as the environment in which we live is corrupted by the prince of the air.

    Be strong. Be courageous. A divided heart will sap our strength and draw us away from the Cross.

    Be comforted and guided by Almighty God’s precious Holy Spirit in fellowship with other believers. The Holy Spirit will guide us into all Truth as we earnestly seek the Lord – with ALL of our heart.

    As Paul wrote to the Church, “be comforted,” be knit together in love,” “be rich in the full assurance of understanding in knowing the mystery of God, even Christ, in whom are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge hidden.” – Colossians 2

  44. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart!

    I continue to hope, in the face of real evidence to the contrary, that those in Christ can seek the unity of the Holy Spirit. Still, the heart-break of disunity comes to each of us — and to the body of Christ — the Church Universal.

    You wrote:
    “Imagine,” he adds, “what that debate might have looked like if someone from either side would have said, as the comedian Dennis Miller used to say at the end of his rants, “Of course that’s just my opinion. I might be wrong.”

    When there are “sides” in the church — we only, sadly, reflect the social and political atmosphere where we are called to bring the Good News.

    I wonder, could it be that through thinking about your question, we might examine our own portrayal of the message of Christ’s love? I am going to hope so, even though I might be wrong…

    Jesus is Lord. The Word of God has authority in our lives. The Creator God is sovereign.

    It is not a sin to have doubt. The Lord will send assurance to those who ask.

    Yours in Christ,

  45. pegramsdell says:

    You are so right Deb about knowing God. Too often we tend to accept someone else’s opinion of Him rather than get to know Him ourselves.

    If we know Him and someone says something contrary to His Spirit, we will know and be able to correct them in love. And we will not doubt because we will know.

  46. foreverblessed says:

    Thanks all for the encouragements! Ephesians 4 was, is beautiful, and florida7sun, thanks.
    I found this one very encouraging this morning:
    Romans 5:8,9,10,11
    Lets encourage one another with the good news of new Life in Him.
    (Gary I have a question for you in the former topic, God of the burning bush)

  47. foreverblessed says:

    Maru, I long for the Unity too,
    Ephesians 4,
    My prayer is this will become real in God’s Body, the Church.
    v3, v15-16.

  48. dodi says:

    A Minister once shared a dream he had, and it so spoke to my heart I would like to pass it along………

    The Minister said this……..

    “I dream I died and went to heaven as I was standing in the presence of God he asked me “my child, what gives you the right to enter my kingdom”?,
    The Minister replied…… Father, all I did (was trust you) and the plan and work your Son did for me.

    The Father replied…..
    “Yes, but you were the President of the Seminary, and the minister said…. yes I know, but that means nothing…. (I just trusted you)

    The Father again said…. “Yes I know…..but you have several degrees and have fed many souls who were starving”
    the Minister said yes I know, but all I did (was trust you)…..

    The Father said “Yes I know…. but you have clothed the naked and gave drink to the thirsty” …..
    The Minister said…..”yes, but all I did (was trust you) & the work your Son did for me………

    The Father said ” Yes I know……but you have been so faithful and good”
    The Minister said……..”I am not good Father, all I did (was trust in you) my goodness is a filthy rag”.

    The Father again said “Yes I know……but you have faithfully tithed, your church attendance is pefect” The Minister again said….. “Yes, I know….. but all I did (was trust you & the work your Son did for me)

    The Father then said….
    “My child, I am sorry is this all you have to say?

    The Minister replied….yes Father,and began sadlly and slowly walking away whispering to himself……(I only trusted you)

    The Father then stepped in front of Him with opened arms and said “welcome home my child, for you have hinged and merited absolutely nothing upon your salvation and the work of my Son” (Isaiah 26:4)

  49. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Foreverblessed!

    Yes! Paul sends a vision of unity to the church at Ephesus, just to ponder some of it gives comfort:

    “14…so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.” (Ephesians 4:14-16)

    May the Lord give us all eyes that discern the body of Christ! — Maru

  50. tinkerbell10 says:

    Its okay to have doubt; shows that one is thinking and studying. On August 29 David McCasland wrote an article for “Our Daily Bread.” At the end of the article is the sentence: “Faith helps us to accept what we cannot understand.” I don’t know if Mr. McCasland wrote those words but it helped me so much and put the word “faith” into a much clearer perspective. Peace be with you.

  51. poohpity says:

    To my BTA family who has prayed in the last couple of years for my adult daughter who was suffering from the results of gastric bypass which resulted in physical and mental problems and had been alienated from me for 4 years now has come home. She has been back for 3 weeks now and is seeking counseling and going back to church. I did not want to say anything until I could see if she was going to stay. Thank you for your prayers and forgive me for going off topic but this was another area where I could not see God’s hand yet and did have a little doubt about how he would answer this prayer. Again thank you to all our old time friends for your prayers and praise God for his answer. Thank you. :-)

  52. oneg2dblu says:

    foreverblessed… thank you for sharing those verses with us. To me, they talk to us about how we were.
    “When we *were* sinners, we *were* enemies of God.”
    Christ changed that by surrendering his life for us,
    Christ changed that by Living His Life for God,
    That is the example He gave us to Follow.
    He never told us, we could remanin as Sinners and Enemies of God, and still be walking in His Way!
    Eternally Saved, and living Disobedient Lives, is not written, to my knowledge, as a following of the Gospel of Our Lord.
    Those are the founding arguments however of certain doctrines that churches fall victim to, as they promote such today.
    Only true Repentance, which is evidenced by our turning away from our sin and toward God, will produce the fruit,or the right response to Our Walking in the Way of Christ Our Lord. Learning to Joyfully Submit to God’s Will is a wise thing, and a right and proper teaching.
    This doctrine that teaches, I can never lose my Salvation, seems to me, to “not even require” even this submitting to God’s Will, and that seems to come from another gospel, another source, another spirit.
    A gospel that says each one walks on, or continues his own way, and is saved forever, regardless!
    How can both right living and wrong living, ever be seen as the same thing, and producing the same fruit?
    That is the stuff of a “well crafted,” but deceptive doctrine, that I bleieve Maru speaks of, a doctrine of man. Gary

  53. Omar says:

    Can we admit Doubt?
    I don’t see how we can’t have doubt from time to time.
    When you see on TV all the suffering and misuse of power, the abuse to innocent men, women, and children.

    When you hear or see of a child been kidnap and killed. Or of a adult; be it mother or father or some one else abuse or killing a child.

    You see all the horrors that is happening every day to innocent people. I have to wonder sometimes why GOD lets these things happen?

    I have been told that GOD is still in charge. I think if this is so, why does HE let these things happen?

    It seems like to the me that Satan is in charge of this world. And then I think that maybe we only hear of the bad stuff that is going on and not of the good that is going on.

    I am confused because deep in my heart I know that there is a GOD and I believed some day that HE will conquer all and yet I have doubts.

  54. oneg2dblu says:

    Maru… Ephesians 4 and this Unity you speak of can only be met by also understanding the proir verses properly. For they come before this Unity, this being One in Christ. Ephesians 2:1-3 NIV
    “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of the world and the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts.”
    That is “why” there can be never be any Unity in the Church, because some teach another gospel, one that says, “Your sins never effect your Salvation…
    Once Saved Always Saved.” This a lie from the ruler of the kingdom of the air, who still reigns in the church today, and is at work in the lives of the thriving disobedient that sit among us, who through the accepting this deceptive doctrine, feel no need to change! Gary

  55. harr says:

    Christianity is a relationship with THE LORD JESUS,you either have one or you dont,you either believe GOD or you dont,CHRIST died for our sins according to the scriptures,was buried and rose on the third day according to the scriptures.Christ shed His Blood to pay for our sins,a debt we cannot pay by merit or money.Salvation is a gift of GOD,in order to have it you half to receive it.Only THE SPIRIT OF GOD,WHO IS GOD can make Himself real to us,it is not a matter of how smart we are of our own intelect,THANK GOD!JESUS came from heaven & went through hell to get to the door of your heart where HE knocks,it,s up to you,your choice,your GOD given choice,weather you open your heart to GOD or leave HIM shut out,HE will not force you!HOLY FATHER save the lost,YOUR will be done,by the power of YOUR SPIRIT,for your honor and glory LORD JESUS,amen!

  56. poohpity says:

    Sin does not effect our salvation it was and is the reason we have salvation which effects our sin, to not continue in it but when we do sin we now have the ability to ask for forgiveness and God is faithful and just to forgive us of our sin and restore us to a right relationship with the Lord. 1 John 1:8-10

    Gary would you please help me to understand your teaching by giving scripture to back up your pretense about living a life free from sin after we have become a believer and tell me of a person other than Christ who has ever achieved that. Also share with me the gospel that you teach that Christ is not enough.

  57. remarutho says:

    Hello Gary!

    It seems you have formed an opinion of theology I cannot speak to. If I have offended you in any way, I am sorry. We may all learn to curb our speech — especially when we have become offensive:

    “…but no one can tame the tongue. It is restless and evil, full of deadly poison. Sometimes it praises our Lord and Father, and sometimes it curses those who have been made in the image of God.” (James 3:8-9)

    I hope you can accept my apology.


  58. poohpity says:

    Gary when you quoted 2:1-3 the rest of verse 3 you failed to quote which lead into the rest of the principle being taught by Paul was “Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 BUT because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by GRACE you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by GRACE you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” which was quoted to you before by tracey5tgbtg.

    Since December 10, 2010 no matter what the topic is it is brought around to your interpretation of salvation and whether it can be lost. If we are talking about art it gets turned into a discussion about salvation. People have given you verse upon verse to support their beliefs and then the conversation again comes to the thought of we think we can just continue to sin and that is not what anyone of us believe but we are condemned of thinking. It may be a good thing for you to take this matter to your pastor or some spiritual adviser that you believe will help you work through this. I feel very concerned for your struggle.

  59. davids says:

    I find it a bit tiresome that we keep going over old ground. It distracts from the subject at hand, and tends to bring up animosities.

    Pooh, I rejoice in your reconcilliation with your daughter. You and others here have been in my prayers.

    I miss Bob from Cornwall and hope he is well.

  60. bratimus says:

    Thank you Tracey5

    For pointing out where in the comments doubt Thomas came up.

    I was just trying to point out where the Bible does mention how we might doubt.

    This admission of doubt we might have, is i really doubt towards God-Christ or is it more self doubt in are walk with Christ.

    I don’t doubt God-Christ, my doubt comes as i have doubt that i can keep carrying on without completly falling apart.

  61. oneg2dblu says:

    Maru… I do not take offense to what you have spoken. We are in agreement on much, and that was what I was trying to speak to. Perhaps we’ve both misunderstood each other. I’m sorry for that, and find your apology
    welcome, and please accept mine as well.
    The theology I have formed, is conditional salvation, and it is based on the verses that scripture uses, to define what is required, for our recieving our “inital salvation,” and what is required to continue in it. Instead of falling into the trap of spiritual death, were unconditional salvation is forever.This can happen to all believers, and when it does they deny the very use and power of the gift that was freely given. But, this is what “must be denied” by those who believe differently about their sin, saying that even sin which can destory ones spiritual life of discernment, has no effect on their salvation. Meaning that the Spiritually Dead, will also enjoy eternity with their salvation intact.
    I’ve never read that in the Holy Scriptures, but some must read that into them somehow, to support the OSAS position…The real problem with that is, our salvation is conditional, and scripture supports that condition.
    But quoting those verses to the spiritually dead will also have no effect on them, just as they continually claim, their future sin has no effect on their salvation.
    I will give the verses on my next entry, because I’ve been challenged to do so. But this challenge really goes against the very written word of God, not me.
    I trust when God reveals it through his word, it has the power to change, for the very doctrine they now support, denies it. That is the only reason why I’m going to give them. They don’t come from me, they come from God through Paul’s writings, and others who quote scriptures, which are God’s given challenge to us. For those who *were* saved, who once recieved the gift for doing no work, having nothing to boast about, must continue in their salvation… that is a work that must be done. A relationship must be maintained, and that is the first condition. So, we can’t both recieve the gift, and then chose to walk away from it, claiming it is still in our possession. Gary

  62. oneg2dblu says:

    Conditional security may be explained through these
    few verses, John 10:26-29 NIV
    “But you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
    My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
    My Father who has give them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.”
    That’s the first condition. We must listen and follow,
    or we are not his sheep. So, our salvation is dependant and conditional! We must be involved in the relationship.
    Our first real “work” is defined here clearly for us. If we deny this, we are spiritually dead, and do not belong to Christ, and have not been given to Him by His Father.
    Salvation is not for those who are deaf to his word, or to the disobedient to his commands.
    Do we need to go any further to bring home more required conditions, or will this verse alone, silence those unconditonal believer’s who are challenging His Word, and the conditional position it reveals?
    I pray it hits home, hits the heart of those who chose to believe their are no conditions required for their
    initional, our their ongoing salvation.
    Unbelievers do not recieve this Gift of Salvation from God, and the Disobedient, who walk their own way and know Him not, they do not hear His Voice.

  63. remarutho says:

    Hello Mart & Friends —

    It seems to me there have been several examples cited by the group here, from Scripture, that show how persons (Job, Abraham, Thomas…) lived with uncertainty in their faith walk with the Lord. Debates continue between atheists and believers in the triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). It cannot be empirically “proven” either that God exists nor that God does not exist.

    Mart, you wrote:
    “Can we…admit that our faith is tested by all kinds of situations that leave us, in some respect, with the lack of “proof” and “certainty”– that requires faith in what we find most reasonable and sure?

    I believe we all “walk by faith, not by sight.” (2 Corinthians 5:7) We find reasonable evidence that God is working — that God loves us — that God sent his Christ to redeem us — and that he sent the Holy Spirit to guide and empower the church.

    Gary, you wrote:
    “…conditional salvation, and it is based on the verses that scripture uses, to define what is required, for our recieving our “inital salvation,” and what is required to continue in it.”

    Is it not, according to Scripture, that “For the death he (that is Christ) died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 6:10-11) What “condition” could possibly separate us from Christ once we have believed in him? What could halt the continuation of the working of Christ’s blood?

    Yours in Christ,

  64. poohpity says:

    Good verse Gary that is exactly what we have been saying. No one who has believed in Jesus can be taken away from Him. Excellent choice!! :-)

  65. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,

    Hope all is well in your lives today! Want to comment on Mart’s question, “I resonate with that kind of confidence even though I live with the tension of an “insect-like” mind that occasionally gets stuck on all kinds of thoughts/doubts like “how and why would there even be a God in the first place?”

    …an “insect-like” mind, Mart? LOLOLOL! :-) That was my chuckle for today!! Now I know why you used a picture of a butterfly for this blog topic! Was thinking about your question, “why would there even be a God in the first place?” Thinking that that’s impossible to comprehend with our natural minds. God is a Spirit, and He reveals himself to us spiritually because our natural mind can’t comprehend Him.

    As I pondered your question, I thought, why would there be people who live on a planet called Earth? The spiritual world is more real than the natural world. Don’t think God’s existence can be truly comprehended or appreciated with our natural mind. God’s ways, thoughts, love, mercy, grace, compassion, friendship and goodness are very mysterious, and I know that that’s one of the reasons why I’m so utterly captivated by Him! I have an insatiable desire to *know* Him as I am known by Him.

    I truly believe that if there were no God, there would be total anarchy on the earth. There would be no peace, no joy, and no place to rest our weary souls! Since there *is* a God, I’m MIGHTY, MIGHTY glad that He’s a GOOD God. Would ponder this question more, but I have a chore to do before I turn in for the night.

    Love to all,

  66. florida7sun says:

    Mart, as I reflect on the photo of your butterfly, I am reminded of this comment to a newspaper in 1901: “The chief danger of the 20th century will be religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God, and Heaven without Hell.” – William Booth, Founder of the Salvation Army

    We were all once crawling like worms in our sinful nature.

    Trapped in the encasement of our death, God’s love and light through the incarnation of His Precious Son brought new life.

    Dying to self, we receive His Pardon and the Gift of Eternal Life. We soar in Christ. Old things pass away. We have a new heart, a new purpose, and a new life… all things become new. We rise with Him and discover the richness of His Word. His Holy Spirit leads us on the journey He sets before us. We reflect His nature.

    We are one with Christ… inseparable… inseparable forever… never to return to a shredded cocoon, our body of death.

    But how can we be sure we are truly His, as the deceiver and our carnal nature continue to attack?

    The answer is simple.

    Do we truly embrace God’s truth? Jesus came into the world to testify to the Truth. He said, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” – Matthew 22:37

    This love is not possible without salvation. And the proof of salvation is seen through regeneration. Paul encourages us to work out our salvation. As we grow in the knowledge of Him we love… our Spirit (His Spirit) transforms us. We no longer crawl on our belly like a caterpillar. We hunger for Him. We soar like a butterfly sharing His message and love wherever the Lord’s Spirit takes us.

    That is the beauty of Jesus as He taught us how to pray…

    “Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
    Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.” – Matthew 6:9-13

  67. pegramsdell says:

    When God said that we are adopted sons and daughters after we accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, He means that as adopted children we belong to Him forever. In Hebrew law when someone adopts a child, they can never be un-adopted. EVER!!!! You can disown your own children, but….NEVER an adopted one. So…when He adopted us and said we could call Him Abba Father (daddy) he meant forever. And He never lies. I am so at peace with this, knowing that I will never be without Him again…ever!

  68. SFDBWV says:

    Pooh, I am so pleased that God has given you and your daughter the opportunity to be reunited. I do pray all goes well for her and you, as I know how important this is for you both.


  69. poohpity says:

    florida7sun, you brought up Paul encouraging us to work out our salvation, which is Jesus dieing for our sins, then we would be quick to understand that we have been given freedom to do good things that will bring Glory to God in His strength as the rest of that sentence says, “for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.” (Philippians 2:11-13) If we truly believe that we have been given that gift I think we would show that mercy and grace to others by not arguing, complaining, judging because we would have fear and trembling because of the great mercy we ourselves have been shown.

    I think about the picture of Peter wanting so bad to walk on water with Jesus. Stepping out of the boat without doubt then looking around at where he was, with eyes on circumstance, began to sink but Jesus reached out His hand and caught him. That reminds me of what Jesus does for me when my doubt and lack of faith happen. He reaches out His hand and guides me safely back into the boat and calms me. Matt 14:25-33

  70. poohpity says:

    Thank you Steve it has been a long journey of waiting. Thank you so much for all your prayers.

  71. poohpity says:

    Last friday night as all three children sat around the table I began to weep and my oldest son asked me if the tears were for all of them being together and I said, “oh yes, praise the Lord”.

  72. oneg2dblu says:

    Maru… what can separate us from the Love of God?
    If his love is Unconditional, and you and I both bleieve it is, for He first Loved us, and that, we can do nothing about, for It is unconditional!
    We are His Creation and that we can do nothing about!
    It is also His Will that None Should Perish as well.
    Should is the active part of that verse, because we can choose through our own way, a death that He chooses not to prevent, a spiritual death of choice.

    But, that is something that we must be about, and that only comes about by those “Who will” by their own freewill choice.. If we chose otherwise, and not chose to Folllow Him, not Listen to His Voice, chose to wander off in our own way. We choose to perish in our own, Disobedience and Unbelief. We are never forced to stay His, becuase He never takes away our freewill to deny and reject Him, to stray, which will lead us to our own destruction.
    The verse I quoted, does not say that His Sheep Once Listened, Once Followed, it is a living condition of His Sheep to both activly listen and obey, or we will be found in a Our Own Lost Condition, and we will no longer be Under HIS protection but under our own freewil.
    Not because some “one” took us out of His Ever Powerful Hand, but, because we choose to walk our own way instead.
    It is exactly why Once Saved Always Saved cannot be His Design, for that would cancel our freewill to become spiritually dead if we so choose.
    That choice, is never taken from us, which shows us His Love for us is greater, and never ending, He never enslaves us. But, Our Salvation is Conditional and WE can change that by becoming dead spiuritually, and that is what His Word declares! Believing in False Teaching or another gospel causes this death, as one can fall away or be led away, by many other voices, even Angels, Pastors, the Pope, or the person in the pew right next to you, who also claims to follow! It is written! Gary

  73. poohpity says:

    Where is it written Gary that we can be taken away?

  74. cherielyn says:

    In reading Mart’s post and all the comments, I think back to a time when I was having doubts. My doubts were not about the underlying Word of God, salvation, etc., but rather if it was proper to worship on Sunday, or if it should be on Saturday (the Sabbath), avoiding certain foods and all of the other things that went along with it, while going through a Bible study with a particular group.

    I struggled, back and forth about this and earnestly prayed that God would give me an answer to what was right.

    At a Wednesday night Bible study, the pastor directed us to a certain passage. I have always been one to read what comes before and after a passage to get the full context. I have no idea what my pastor’s Bible study was about that night because, in reading the verses that came before and after the passage we were directed to, God gave me His own personal sermon. Because of that my doubts were erased about the issues I had been struggling with.

    I learned a valuable lesson from that. Take the Bible literally. Man’s interpretation can be flawed and if man’s interpretation does not agree with what God’s Word says about a subject, it should be discounted, disregarded and discarded.

    As an aside, once again I have not been able to visit BTA for awhile due to ongoing and worsening problems with my son, Mike. I would greatly appreciate and treasure your prayers on his behalf. It is a horrible situation – cruel and inhuman treatment of him by his neighbors.

  75. remarutho says:


    May the Lord bless you and keep you.
    The Lord make his face to shine upon you.
    The Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace. (Numbers 6:24-26)

    I am confident you will barely notice my absence from this amazing see-saw… :>) Maru

  76. dodi says:

    My Sheep hear my voice, and they do follow me. I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never parish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father who gave them to me is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. And I and the Father are one.
    {John 10:27-30}

    We are a precious unique posession: “my sheep” we are dependent totally upon the Father’s protection,he is my protector, my owner, my keeper.

    My sheep listen to my voice and I know them: God knows the stars and calls them by name, just as he knows his own sheep and calls them by name. (Psalm 147:4,5) (John 10:3)
    If he starts out with 100 sheep, he will come home w/ 100 sheep / not 99

    “I was once a wretched sinner,
    I sought your mercy seat by prayer,
    Your mercy heard and set me free,
    Thank you Father, for mercy coming to me.”

    No sheep of Christ shall ever be lost, especially those
    he bought and cover w/ His blood and made to be his own, or ever wander away as to perish in the end.
    We are KEPT by the power of God unto salvation. (1Peter 1:5)

    Now yes we sometimes err, and disobey…even by free will, free choice…..but guess what??? God says if we choose to sin by our freewill and our free choice……..he will chasten those who belong to him, and if you are without chastisement, then you are not his. God does not whip the devil’s children. (Hebrews 12:8)
    Another blessing God has given his children is an internal security system (the Holy Spirit) he promises us the Holy spirit will lead, guide, direct us into all truth…..even when we err sometimes….. the precious Holy Spirit is there to get us out of our messes and put us back in the right direction.

    All who belong to Him are trophies of grace and a work in progress, earth is is just our stepping stone,he is the potter and we are the clay, being molded by his design……..but one day our mortality will put on immortality and so shall we ever be with the Lord. __

  77. dodi says:


    This post is not about my being right or
    someone else being wrong…..or I’m wrong
    and someone else being right……in honest
    reality….it’s just about being sure….

    God is no respector of persons and in love
    I would just like to say….assurance is merely
    a grace and a gift from God, not that we should
    boast but (a blessed gift) <

  78. oneg2dblu says:

    To all those Once Saved Believers I’ve offended, please accept my most heartfelt appology. I do take a “tough and contested stand” for my Lord.
    But not doing so for me, puts me on that slippery slope of swaying in the pleasant, gentle breezes, that the winds of the multitudes of unsaved, or once saved create. Those who once heard the voice of the Shepherd, but claim for themselves to even be able to ignore it today, and still be saved. Thinking they are still with Him, resting upon the green pastures of their overstuffed churches and their doctrine created by diluting the living water, as their flock now sit so comfortably and secure, in pews of still water.
    That water is found in the praising of, “I will be with you always,” as the only words needed for His Sheep, (the one’s who still hear His voice)but by so craftfully avioding the words of Christ that also would say,”If you deny me, I will deny you!” That fully Conditional Context, contains both messages, but the once saved message does not have to! I have been led to believe that once you are saved, you had better “continue listening,” to and for His Voice in every part of your life, while you still have it.
    The day you don’t… and by testing that still water message and walking away, your dead in your own form of deafness anyhow. There is no longer any spiritual life left in you! I believe the whole message says:
    My Sheep Hear my voice, and follow me, and those who don’t, they belong to someone else. That is the “whole basis” for my “I have both a work and responsibilty” belief system. For my seesaw beliefs just don’t seem to work properly for me, without Christ constantly speaking to me on the other end!
    But, I could be wrong, I could doubt it and feel securas you in that still water message, living on without having to be hearing his voice, but my Christ will not let me believe it in the faith unconditional security believers choose. I have not yet learned to walk on that still water, for I must stand upon the Rock every moment, or I’ll sink directly to the bottom.
    For my Salvation, though freely given, only lives on
    through daily watering, and that is why it is so Conditional to me! Gary

  79. tracey5tgbtg says:

    The rich young ruler (Mark 10:17-31) asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life and Jesus told him to follow the commandments.

    The man said he did do that and had always done that, but he must have felt more was needed or else why did he ask Jesus? My guess is that he wanted to hear Jesus say how great a job he was doing.

    Jesus told him he lacked one thing, get rid of everything you have. The man couldn’t do it. Everyone reads this and says, “the man loved money too much,” but how many of us have nothing. No money on hand, no money in the bank, no house, no possessions, no car; basically just enough clothes on your back to keep you out of jail for indecent exposure.

    Maybe we could accept it if God used circumstances to take everything away, but how many could willingly surrender everything. How many have done so? Are you reading this post at a friend’s house or the library?

    The man couldn’t do it.

    The apostles asked Jesus, “who then can be saved?” Jesus answered: “with man, this is IMPOSSIBLE, but not with God; all things are POSSIBLE with God.”

    If we have a moment of doubt, a lustful thought, an unanswered question, an hour of bitterness, a day of anger, a season of worry, does that mean we have lost our salvation? If so, then how can anyone be saved?

    “with man, this is IMPOSSIBLE, but not with God; all things are POSSIBLE with GOD.”

    Maru – I hope you don’t stop posting your comments.

  80. SFDBWV says:

    Whether a group of Christian believers or a group of non believers, people all still fall into the range of being the broad spectrum of being people.

    Here in this venue of gathered souls we all expose our personalities.

    Because Mart puts no restrictions on who can come into the conversation, and because the freedoms we enjoy as being a part of this group both allow us to be open it also invites in people who at best would never be given a voice anywhere else.

    For the most of us we are given a choice to ignore some of the more irritating among us or to attempt to be civil and allow them the same freedoms we also enjoy, without confrontation.

    There are many here who are not attending any church. Some because they have lost the ability to believe in the structure of whatever denomination they attended, some because they are still looking for a group that believes the same way as they, and many because they run into people who are so irritating as to cause them to leave.

    It is all too sad that I have seen many good people leave this group of bloggers because of the conflict of personalities that arise.

    Which brings me back to my opening quandary, we either accept a person for being different and ignore their eccentricity or we attempt the impossible and are drawn into their twisted view of things and into a never ending argument with them…or leave the table altogether.

    If we leave because of another then only our voice is silenced and we cede our thoughts and views to those of whom we disagree, and deny ourselves a seat at this table.

    There is no *doubt* about this; we are all different, but through the love of Christ we can all agree on HIM.


  81. poohpity says:

    Steve, you said, “we either accept a person for being different and ignore their eccentricity or we attempt the impossible and are drawn into their twisted view of things and into a never ending argument with them…or leave the table altogether.” There is another option and that is to pray for them and look and listen to them through the eyes of Jesus. Jesus dealt with doubt, little faith and lack of understanding with a heart of compassion and empathy.

  82. remarutho says:

    Amen, Poohpity!

    Jesus says, “The Spirit and the Bride say, ‘Come.’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come.’ And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.” (Revelation 22:17)

    Tiny children understand that Jesus loves them. Spiritual giants, such as Mother Theresa or Billy Graham, understand the same thing — perhaps more deeply or more thoughtfully. We all come as we are.

    All are welcome!


  83. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… 9-4 you asked, Where does it say taken away?
    I do not know. I do know however, the comment that Billy Grahm made today, in the Florida Today Newspaper. when answering a question: about America talking about the 911 event and how it brought many to the Lord, i’ll quote him…
    “I have no doubt many found lasting faith during those days- but I also fear as a whole our nation
    has turned away from God and gone back to business as usual.” That is the best answer I could give as well about this turnig away from God, because, It is possible. Gary

  84. oneg2dblu says:

    Mart…I was just thinking about this: Jesus kept a record of wrongs as well, telling the woman at the well how many husbands she had, and that the one she was with now was not her huband. Not only to show her sin, but for the reason of showing how He could also forgive her.
    I wonder what better defines the word Love, the one who just keeps records of wrongs, or the one who would rather forgive them?
    The bible says,
    “Love forgives all things, and keeps no record of wrongs.”
    I may have misquoted the exact wording of the love verse here, but the context is still there, the Love of Christ is for all, the saved and the unsaved.
    Do you think his parting words, “Go and sin no more,” had anything to do with her ongoing sin which had not yet been dealt with? Was she clearly saved at the point, for her having recognized His Deity or just forgiven for her past, and present iniquity? Gary

  85. florida7sun says:

    Gary, I believe Paul in 2 Timothy 2 is addressing this. Specifically, 2 Timothy 2:11-13.

  86. oneg2dblu says:

    Steve.. I believe I have shown, and do share your good advice, as I had to leave the table twice now, each time for forty days, to try to end the continuous battle. It stopped those relentless irritating questions for a while, but the arguments didn’t go away, and never get settled.
    So, you are quite right on both points. To ignore, is better than to try to settle the twisted views of those who continue to bring it. One must relent and repent, or the battle goes on forever, unless the
    Holy Spirit stops it, the flesh keeps it going…
    I pray His Way is for all, all those who hear his voice and obey! Gary

  87. poohpity says:

    “I have no doubt many found LASTING faith during those days-BUT I also fear AS A whole our nation
    has turned away from God and gone back to business as usual.” A nation is full of all kinds of people with all kinds of beliefs and they may have thought about God during that horrible day but never made the commitment for a lasting faith. The kind of faith that believes that NOTHING can separate us from the love of God. That is not a scripture verse to back up what you said “it is written” that is a quote from Billy Graham who fully believed in OSAS.

  88. poohpity says:

    People who never accept the gift of salvation can not give away something they never had in the first place. Those who really have accepted the gift of salvation, not earned because it would then be called something other than grace(undeserved, unmerited mercy and forgiveness).

  89. poohpity says:

    Gary if you trust what Billy G says here is a quote from him; “So where may we find true assurance of faith? In 1979, Billy Graham was interviewed on television in Sydney. The interviewer asked, “Do you believe that you are going to heaven when you die?” Billy replied, “Yes.” That conversation jammed the switchboard, prompting more angry calls than anything prior to it. Most people believe that we cannot say we are going to heaven. They think that we get there through our own good works and experience, and our good works are never good enough. The most that they are prepared to say is, “I hope that I am going to heaven when I die.” When they heard Billy Graham say he knows that he is going to heaven when he dies, they assumed his assurance was there because he had preached to millions of people and had been the advisor to presidents and so on. In other words, they thought he was proud and full of himself. But Billy Graham�s assurance was based on the Word of God, on what it teaches regarding salvation from sin through faith in Christ.

  90. deeannw says:

    I’ve read some great posts here (both on and off topic…). I want to add my two cents’ worth about doubt. But I’d like to separate this whole doubt thing into two areas of doubt.

    First, I recognize that we true believers can be off-putting and polarizing in our commitment to believing in one way. But the fact is, if we concede that we could be wrong, we cut the legs right out from under our argument–we deny that Scripture contains absolute truths. I love what one post said: “Doubt is the doorway to being deceived.” When we say this is just our opinion and we could be wrong, the message between the lines is that everyone’s different belief systems are just as valid as ours. But that’s not what Scripture tells us. God’s truths are absolute. There can be no room for doubt about that. People need to know that only one way leads to salvation, and ALL other paths lead to the horror of eternal torment in hell. We can’t undermine the seriousness of that message and the moral imperative to share it as absolute truth. Do some of us share that message in an unloving way? Sadly, yes. But that doesn’t mean the message is any less true. I also loved several posts that reminded us that Satan is the great deceiver, and it is his unholy mission to plant and nurture the seeds of doubt. Brothers and sisters, we must be on guard against deceit and relativism. There is ONE truth, ONE way.

    Second, there’s doubt that creeps into our daily lives. I’m not talking about doubting God’s existence, but just those doubts that creep in when we’re weak. We still believe in God, we still believe in the Gospel message. We just find ourselves wondering…why? Why are we going through this? Why is our loved one suffering? Why has God allowed a tragedy? Someone posted that it’s not a sin to doubt. I respectfully disagree. Packer addressed this in his book Knowing God. When we doubt, it’s like we’re questioning God’s wisdom and judgment, which implies that He could be wrong somehow, and that’s sinful. He is sovereign, holy, and omniscient. He cannot be wrong. Ever. There is nothing that happens, good or bad, that is outside His omnipotent control. But the fact is, we all sin, every day in so many ways. Only ONE was perfect. Salvation doesn’t make us perfect or sinless. It simply saves us from the punishment due our sins. Thankfully, our God is gracious and merciful to love and forgive us. Can I get an “Amen” on that? :-) Other posts have addressed the need for believers to study the Word, to cultivate a deeper relationship with God through prayer, and to be involved with other believers for support, encouragement, and growth. I completely agree.

    Can we admit to doubt? I think we have to, or we wouldn’t be truthful and honest. For me, though, once I was saved, there’s never been a doubt that the Gospel message of salvation is absolutely true, not just for me but for all humankind. And I think it’s dangerous for any of us to concede, when talking with those who don’t believe, that this is just what we believe and we could be wrong. As for the trials and tribulations that assail us in our daily lives, I think we all have moments of weakness and doubt–but that doesn’t make it right. I just repent and pray for more wisdom, guidance, peace, and strength from the Holy Spirit.

  91. oneg2dblu says:

    florida7sun… great verse! I never doubt God’s being faithful. Never have! He is faithful to the end, it is us who can fall away, who are challeged by Paul to be actively in the race until the end!
    We must persevere and never give up on Him, Jesus,
    who I thought gave out a stern warning about denying Him! Paul teacheds us about False teachers so we are not led astray, which to me means we can be. The very teachers he was most worried about were already in the church, and still are today. We must guard ourselves against any other gospel than what was taught originally, or we are not obeying the word of God, that Paul was given to write about. But, I don’t want to be negative about this, I want to be very postive that this message hits home, touches the hearts of fellow believers, who really are my concern, because we all claim to follow the same Gospel, same Lord, but we all derive different views because of our different life experiences, and where we are on the path, the growth process of being lifelong learners, listeners, and lovers of His word. I feel most secure, when staying tuned in to the Holy Spirit, being in the word, and sharing with fellow believers. My salvation is not even an issue, when I’m Following Jesus. But, remember when we weren’t, we all had a problem. That problem was solved by Him, Who’s Voice we hear and obey, For, I feel we still have a problem, if we don’t. Be Blessed!

  92. remarutho says:

    Hi DeeAnn!

    You wrote:
    “Can we admit to doubt? I think we have to, or we wouldn’t be truthful and honest.”

    Paul told the church at Rome, “For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.” (Romans 12:3)

    I believe a “wall of doctrine” is not as winsome to the lost people in our lives as a genuine witness of what Jesus has done in us and for us. The Lord is “patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

    Temptations and trials scour out our lives, so that the walls of these jars of clay grow thinner and thinner . Soon, without pretense — and not “being God” ourselves — Jesus shines through our words and actions. “…but in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an accounting for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and reverence.” (1 Peter 3:15-16)

    We cannot know everything God is doing in the lives of others.


  93. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,

    Hope all is well with you today and forever. I have truly, truly enjoyed reading all of the comments on this blog topic. Steve, some, if not all, of your comments were *spot on.* Thank you for sharing the wisdom that our LORD has given you. Cherielyn, I will remember your son in prayer; I know the LORD has not forgotten about your trial(s) with your son, Mike.

    Someone mentioned missing Bob (Cornwall), I think it was davids, and I miss him too. Hope all is well with you, Bob.

    Love to all,

  94. Regina says:

    Well said, Dodi (Sept. 9/2:06 & 2:18 pm)! :-)

  95. Regina says:

    tracey5tgbtg, Why did you ask us if we were reading your comment at a friend’s house or the library? By the way, with the exception of your question, your comment made perfect sense to me.

  96. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Regina – it does sound funny now when I look back at it, but the reason I asked it was because I was trying to make the point that probably everyone who posts on this blog owns some sort of a computer, which is a possession. And that means I’m not the only one who hasn’t given up everything I own.

    What I was thinking in a convoluted sort of way, is that in this passage (Mark 10:17-31, Matthew 19:16-30 & Luke 18:18-30), we see a person who says he follows the commandments, but still wants to know what he has to DO to inherit eternal life.

    Jesus tells him if he wants to be perfect, he should sell everything he owns and give the money to the poor and follow Him.

    I always felt that since I haven’t done that, maybe I am not completely trying to do everything I can to follow Jesus. I was wondering if others felt the same way or if anyone actually had given up everything they own and given away all their money. Usually, though, I always hear people say that Jesus didn’t really mean we have to give away everything we own. But then why did He say it?

    Even the disciples were surprised because they believed that wealth was a sign of being blessed by God.

    Oh well, I could go on forever and this post would be too long. I know what I’m saying doesn’t make much sense. Reading all the comments gets me “thinking” too much. :)

    My soul finds rest in God alone; my salvation comes from Him. Psalm 62:1

  97. BruceC says:

    Jesus saw the heart of the rich young man while others could not do that. By asking him to give all he had to the poor Jesus exposed that heart to the man himself and to the others around him. I see it as the man loved his possessions more than God. He made a boast of keeping the commands of God. (Liar, liar pants on fire. Only Christ was sinless and perfect before God.)
    Something like the Pharisee and sinner in the temple. The Pharisee telling God all he has done and being grateful for being so “wonderful” in God’s eyes and the sinner who beat his chest and cryed for forgiveness for his sins; and not even being able to look up.
    Reminds me of two kinds of people. One is the kind of legalist who thinks being good is being good enough; and the other is one who is saved and now thinks he is perfect and no longer sins. And unfortunately we all fall into the later at times; do we not? Let us pray that we don’t have that attitude all the time.

    Soli Deo Gloria!

  98. oneg2dblu says:

    BruceC… you have hit it right on the head, the head of pride for those who feel their works only, and those who feel they can sin freely. Some doctrines deceptively allow for those feelings to be worshiped and relied upon more so, than an ongoing actively involved, relationship with Christ himself.
    I wish the only doctrine that the modern church used today, was… IF you remain in Him, (Jesus Christ) He will remain in you! That is the one I live for, to me, it became the only word I needed, Once I knew Him. Before that revelation, which only the Holy Spirit can evoke, and not some churches doctrine that may allow constant loose living, I could not believe it either!
    I guess you could say, As my brother says, The Bible has closed your mind, there is more than one reality.
    I said, my reality is this, there is a Heavwen and a Hell, and we get to freely choose which one we want to be in. Perhaps, I beleive too much of what I’ve read, being called legalistic as well. But, I just can’t get over the Word of God since the Holy Spirit has quickened it for me! Everything else seems worldly, and worthless when I’m not living under His Commands, as they are all living for Him, and not against Him. Every word in it to me, is a red letter word! Perhaps even what I attempt to so strongly apply! I saw nothing but red when I read your comment, and that red was not anger, it was an expression of love for others! Jesus is that expression of love for others as well! Gary

  99. florida7sun says:

    Wonderful ODB this morning,,, “In all losses, we can turn to the true Shepherd, Jesus Christ, who alone can heal our brokenness and grief.” – Bill Crowder

    Brings to my mind the willingness to surrender all to Our Precious Lord and Savior…

    “All to Jesus I surrender, All to Him I freely give; I will ever love and trust Him, In His presence daily live.

    “I surrender all, I surrender all. All to Thee, my blessed Savior, I surrender all.

    All to Jesus I surrender, Humbly at His feet I bow,
    Worldly pleasures all forsaken; Take me, Jesus, take me now.”

    As Peter said, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”

    No man, no ism, no sect; Jesus alone has the words that impart resurrected life, here and now and forevermore.

  100. poohpity says:

    It is wonderful to keep our eyes on Jesus rather than on the things we can or can not do. If we admit to doubt or the inability to follow the letter of the law or even just our human condition then we can take our eyes off of ourselves and live for Christ. It is not about us, it is about Jesus Christ. If we want to be like Him spend more time with Him so His roots will grow down into our very being. I think we doubt the transforming power of the Holy Spirit who works in us when we try and earn His favor. We can not earn something that we already have and we had the love of Christ while we were yet sinners, now that is real love. I have to admit to my short comings or else I will not think I needed any one’s help to change. I need Jesus in my life because I tried to live this life without Him and had to ask “Deb, how is that working for you?” and the answer was it was not working.

  101. remarutho says:

    Hi Poohpity —

    Thinking of you and your daughter in these tender days. May the blessed Holy Spirit enfold you — and all your family — in his lovingkindness and provision. May she see in you the love of Jesus. The Lord will see to all the repentance and “clean-up” issues. May he give you joy unspeakable and full of glory!

    In Him,

  102. poohpity says:

    Maru, thank you so very much. We all need the prayers of the saints and the Holy Spirit to get through this journey of life. :-)

  103. Mart De Haan says:

    BTA friends,
    Am out of the country for a couple of weeks. Schedule has not allowed me to stay in touch with you. Am glad to see your ongoing encouragement of one another.

  104. bubbles says:

    May you enjoy your time away. Be safe, and may the Lord bring you safely back home.

  105. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,
    Mart, I 2nd bubbles’ comment. I hope you enjoy your time away, and I pray that the LORD will cover you with divine protection while you’re out of the country and when you return home.

    tracey5tgbtg, Thank you for answering my question. I think Jesus knew how much the rich young ruler’s money meant to him. He knew he wouldn’t be willing to give it all away. Don’t think Jesus meant for him to give every cent away to the point of becoming destitute. I think He was asking him to give the bulk of it away, saving enough for him to live comfortably without having to ask for handouts from friends/family members. It was obvious that the rich ruler loved his wealth more than anything else.

  106. royalpalm says:

    Hello, BTA and friends,

    Been busy lately. Great posts on this topic re. doubt and faith.

    First, Tracey and Regina, etc. re the rich ruler who wanted to know what he needed to DO to inherit eternal life. (Mark 10:17-31) Note that Jesus quoted the 2nd part of the ten commandments which are about people-people relationships -and the young man said that he did those things. Jesus loved him for He knew that this man tried.

    Having eternal life*, however, is not about doing – it is about about having a relationship with God through Jesus – so Jesus told Him to sell His possessions and come, take up his cross, and follow Him. The law that transcends all laws is “I am the Lord your God… you shall have no other gods before Me.” (Exodus 20:2,3) Obviously, this man’s money is his god.

    * John 17:3 (Jesus speaking )”And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

  107. royalpalm says:

    RE faith and doubt
    The only faith that matters is faith that leads to salvation which is the result of hearing the word of God. Rom. 10:17. In Romans 1:19-21 we learn that God placed the knowledge of Him in each person’s heart- as evidenced in His creation. Those who do not honor Him nor thank Him became futile and darkened in their minds. But to those who truly honor Him, He responds by sending a messenger like Peter to Cornelius, Phillip to the Ethiopian eunuch, (and a missionary to me) – to learn the message of the gospel so they can know Him, not just as Creator but as God and Saviour.

    In normal circumstances, we believe only after have known the facts, but in the spiritual realm, knowledge comes after faith. To please God We have to believe that God is GOD(Sovereign, omnipotent,omnipresent,omniscient,
    Almighty, Creator, Lord, Saviour) and that He rewards those who who diligently seek Him Heb. 11:6.

    God is faithful. By virtue of our faith in the the Lord Jesus, He justifies us and we become righteous in His
    sight. He saves us from the power of sin, death and Satan. He also sanctifies us through the Holy Spirit so we can serve and honor Him. And He will glorify us someday with new bodies.

    As Paul said, it is faith that saves us from beginning to the end. “But the righteous shall live by his faith.” Habakkuk 2:4, Paul emphasized this teaching by using this verse from Habakkuk in his 3 books: Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11, Hebrews 10:38

    Though saved, we are in the world and carry our sinful bodies and its habits so we sin. We need to repent – acknowledge that we sinned against God and recognize that Jesus died for all sins. Our faith in the Lord and His atoning death again makes us righteous in God’s sight.

    Gary, I am confused with your beliefs. God knows who are His. I admire your love and concern but God is able to keep His own. He also knows those who say “Lord, Lord,” but are never His. They may display fruits – but not of the Spirit.

  108. remarutho says:

    Hello Mart –

    Hope your time away has been fruitful!

    In your original post September 5th, you cited Ian Morgan Cron:
    “My friend Jim Wallis of Sojourners is an exemplar of someone who practices this gracious approach to public discourse. He brings together Christians who lean both left and right to work together on poverty and caring for creation. In areas of agreement, he builds on common ground. In areas of disagreement, both he and his colleagues offer grace in the spirit of… ‘but I might be wrong.’”

    It is encouraging to see that there are some Christians who find common ground – and build upon it, as Mr. Cron says, to the glory of God’s kingdom!

    Safe journeys!

  109. oneg2dblu says:

    royalpalm… sorry for the confusion of my twisted thoughts and how I express them. I should have stopped thinking, right after I believed this statement, “Follow Me!”
    Good bye to all, and you can beleive this, All the Born Again amoung us, need to Repent for what we are doing now,, or not doing with our lives, as we all claim to Follow Him!
    Salvation is granted, but taken for granted as we all do,, can cause us all to fall asleep on the job, falling to recognize our need to Repent. Gary

  110. BruceC says:


    Sorry you misunderstood me. I don’t belong to the same camp as you as far “losing one’s salvation”.
    Attended a few churches that unofficially held to that idea. Not anymore. I believe God is able to keep me and finish the good work that He began. Some in those churches were like the bragging Pharisee.
    Two ministers in that denomination fell into sin and hard times and never came back to church; but rather thought they lost their salvation and hope.
    I always ask; what sins or how much sin would cause one to lose their salvation; and who determines whether or not they are “lost”? You? The minister of that church? The ruling clique in that church? The self-righteous that think their walk is spotless and needs no improving? Who? I leave that up to God Who knows the hearts of all men and their motives too.
    I have seen some that I know get emotionally caught up and say the “sinner’s prayer” and ask Christ into their lives; never to be seen again. So I have to catch myself from being judgemental and leave it in God’s hands; while I continue to speak with them and gently prod them; hoping they will turn around. MAny folks out their need to be dicipled correctly too. Some never have been.

    Soli Deo Gloria!

  111. florida7sun says:

    Sharing the Lord’s Precious Gospel, lifting up Intercessory Prayer and studying the Word together in unity are blessed privileges we have as believers in Him who died for us.

    Only the Lord knows the condition of each man’s heart and where he or she is on their road to eternity. Our responsibility is to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul and mind, and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

    As we receive and give His love, we have purpose in life.

    Charles Spurgeon’s message on “The Parable of the Sower” (accessible via Google Search) resonates with my heart. The Lord gives the increase. He is working in every heart that beats on earth. Our responsibility is to sow Good News and, like the Lord’s first disciples, introduce people to Jesus through our speech, countenance and demeanor.

    As Jesus entered the world to testify to the Truth, we received new birth to do likewise.

    “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfector of faith.

    “For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.” – Hebrews 12: 1-3

  112. InHisHands says:

    Faith in our LORD is such a wonderful gift from our LORD. Eph. 2:8,9.
    I want to thank all of you who prayed for my daughter – after her last miscarriage, they discovered the problem; however, it still made us all a bit anxious when she became pregnant in Dec., as to whether she could carry one to term. God is so faithful, and she gave birth on 9/11 to a 7lb 9oz baby boy (just a few hours short of coming in on my birthday). There may have been some cause to doubt that this *miracle* would happen, but the LORD gave peace throughout this time and she (and all of us) just had to depend on Him and His faithfulness.
    Thank you again, for all your prayers.

  113. InHisHands says:

    p.s. It is such a blessin to see that good things happen on 9/11 as we remember the families who suffered such loss.

  114. poohpity says:

    InHisHands, congratulations on the new addition to your family and Happy Birthday. Blessings upon blessings for your whole family as you celebrate the new and the new year for you. Love Deb

    I know this may sound morbid but about doubt if when it is our time to be with our maker we have any doubt about our blessed assurance would there be fear that we have some unconfused sin we have not taken care of before we die or we haven’t performed enough good acts. If we are not sure that our salvation was OSAS can you imagine the distress as we near death which we never know when it will happen so if we are not sure we are saved or had to earn any part of our salvation what then happens when we pass from this life to the next or what happens if the death comes so quickly we have not prepared. That is a scary thought to me I would much rather know that I know I have been saved. I can not imagine standing before the judgment seat of God without our defender by my side clothed in His blood the all encompassing atonement for my sins past, present and future.

  115. foreverblessed says:

    Thank God for His mercies, for bringing back Pooh’s daughter, for giving InHisHands for the new babyboy!
    To be thankful to GOd, to praise Him, to adore Him, to follow Him!

    It is about having a relation with Him, not about what we do. What we do will happen as a result of us being one in Him.
    What I do not like is the constant warning that if you believe in ASOS, you are already at a loss, because that would imply that you could go on sinning, as you are saved forever. (I guess even my blogname would be presumptious foreverblessed, yet I am blessed by the name, as I have been in a church where it was common practice to be warned for falling into sin all of the time). I would not like to attend a church where the constant warning about falling away is preached. Not that it is impossible to fall away, but the preaching, where is the the emphasis?
    Is it on the free grace, which is free to us? For some it is hard to preach that, because there is a chance that some will misuse the freedom. Is that then a reason not to preach it?
    What about Love:
    Perfect love drives out fear. 1 John 4:18
    It is all about God loving us sooo much that He gave His Son to die for our sins in or sins. How can you ever think that if a person realises how big a price God paid, that that same person would then go about his normal life in sin as he always did. If he does so, he did not know the depth of his salvation.
    Paul writes so much about it in Romans:
    Romans 6:1,2,3,4
    So Paul preaches that we are saved through grace, the Grace is the positive message, Above all else that is positive.
    I am saved, and foreverblessed, I believe that, and pray: so help me God.
    He does test us, to make our faith stronger. And we are exerted to persevere, which means that the testing is more severe then we ourselves want to have. Job’s testing was so intense, quite above what I would have planned myself. So we must count the cost.
    But I would like the positive preaching, as florida7sun wrote.
    Sorry for going on, but it is such beautiful gospel we preach.
    Why not preach the love, and live the love, the love we have for one another is a light to the world.
    And this sounds ofcourse sooo ald fashioned: love and all is well. But Love is the motivating factor.
    The love God had for us, not the fear of losing ones salvation, because of what we do.
    We should press on having a love affair with our Lord and Master, Kyria.
    He is a jealous God, like a husband who is jealous for his beloved wife, he does not like it when she would look elsewhere for a relation. This I read this morning in CH Spurgeon morning devotion of september 12. Nahum 1:2 only the first line. See it as a test for yourself:: where your main concern is when you read that verse: Spurgeon puts the emphasis on the first line, not on the 2nd and 3rd line, which are strong warnings. When I would read this verse on my own, it scares me to bits, so I need someone like CH Spurgeon to point to the positive side of this verse. It also shows that I am not yet rooted enough in the love of God to be scared so easily. So yes, I need the positive preachers.
    But maybe there are people who take life with Jesus in an easy way, something like this: -I could go on sinning, as God will forgive me. Let me live in this or that sin, till time is there to be serious about following Jesus.-
    Boy, we need the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and the life of the Holy Spirit within us, to be able to preach what God wants us to preach to this or that person. For me, I have to live this life in Jesus. Let my life do the preaching. Let my life be as a candle on top of a table.

  116. poohpity says:

    All I can Claudia is that was beautiful and so well said. Amen and Amen!!

  117. poohpity says:

    All I can “say”. I left that out lol. Shows to go ya don’t it.

  118. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,

    Royalpalm & Tracey, Another thought (or revelation) about the rich ruler dropped into my mind while I was in the shower this morning. Jesus told the rich ruler to sell everything he had, give it to the poor,

    {which is kind of confusing because if he sold everything he had, how could he give it away? Unless, Jesus meant to give the money he earned from the sales to the poor. But why didn’t He say it like that? “Sell everything you have and give the *money* to the poor.” Anyway, don’t want to get to deep in that train of thought.}
    *he would reap treasure in heaven,
    {Want to stop here for a moment, if that rich ruler had’ve follow Jesus’ instructions he *really* would’ve reaped treasure in heaven!!! Could say more on that, but I’ll press on}
    and come follow Him. Think the rich ruler couldn’t discern the magnitude of that moment because he had weak faith. If the rich ruler had done what Jesus asked him to do, especially the “follow me” part. He wouldn’t have lacked anything for the rest of his life. The rich ruler was unable to discern that *GOD (the Son)*, who was in the flesh, was asking him, in an audible voice, to follow Him!

    Congrats, InHisHands, on the new addition to your family and Happy Birthday! September 11, BTA friends! May we never forget!

    Love to all,

  119. tracey5tgbtg says:

    There have been so many moving and inspiring posts one right after another for quite a while. It’s been such a blessing to visit the BTA blog lately.

    Regina – I agree. The ruler would’ve been blessed beyond what he could have imagined. He could not see it though. Thanks, royalpalm for adding insights.

    Gary, you are in my thoughts and prayers. Although, sometimes I don’t understand where you are coming from, you do cause me to think. Especially lately, I do feel I should examine my heart for complacency and pride.

    My belief is that there was nothing I could do to earn God’s love and there is nothing I could do to lose it; I am in God’s hands. I do believe however, that if I were actually content to live with sin then I never understood or accepted salvation to begin with. But God will not let me be content with my sin and for that I am so thankful. Romans 7:24-25

    Jesus taught his disciples to pray “forgive us our sins, as we forgive everyone who sins against us.” Luke 11:4 I think that is a prayer to be prayed daily until we die.

  120. royalpalm says:

    Gary, I am sorry that you are leaving this blog. Your posts always reflect your love for the Lord, shown by
    your zeal and passion for God’s word. Your faith has encouraged us and challenged us to honor and serve the
    One true God, who is also our Lord and Saviour. You are loved and cherished as a brother in faith and as a friend in this blog.

    Please do not consider our divergent views as an affront against you. God is Truth and His desire is for each
    person to know the truth. As Paul said in I Cor 13:12 – now we just know in part; someday we shall know fully.
    Jesus has sent us the Holy Spirit to teach us and to guide us to all truth. John 16:13. When we are humble and teachable, we will know the truth for He Himself will reveal it to us.

    As I reread your posts, your great concern for the salvation of each one, especially in this blog shines through. I appreciate and thank you for expresssing that in your posts.

    I am glad that you mentioned about the great Shepherd and the importance of hearing and following Him. How sad not to hear and to wander off, not under the protection of the Shepherd! But did you not remember? The great Shepherd did not dismiss that one, errant sheep. – He went out looking for it and never stopped until it was safe in the fold. (Note we are talking of a sheep – not a goat that does not belong to the Shepherd…Matthew 25:32,33).

    By virtue of our faith in the Lord Jesus’ atoning death on the cross for our sins, He becomes our Shepherd and we become His sheep. If we wander away deliberately or innocently we are open to dangers and attacks by the enemy and we may even be hurt or killed, but Jesus still owns us. This truth was illustrated in David’s life. He was chosen by God as “a man after My own heart who will do all my will” Acts 13:22 When David DELIBERATELY sinned against God in the Bathsheba/Uriah affair, God did not dismiss him. Instead He sent Nathan to help David realize the magnitude of his sin, so he could find his way back to God. When he acknowledged his sin against God (repented) and asked forgiveness, He had peace with God and experienced peace in his life. God never stopped loving him and He did not cancel His promises to him, eg the Saviour will come from his family (Matt. 1:1).

    This is also true for us. 2 Tim 2:13 ” If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.” May God bless you and keep you always!

  121. royalpalm says:

    PS, Pooh, Inhishands, I share your joy and I praise God for His love, grace, and mercy to you. Cherielyn, I remember you and your son in prayers. Foreverblessed, you are a blessing to us… Regina, Tracey you will always find God’s truth because you have a seeking and teachable heart! deeannw, I agree wholeheartedly with your September 10, 2011 2:34 pm post…Harr, thanks for your September 8, 2011 12:09 pm post. Jesus died for all sins except for the Sin of UNBELIEF which is the hardening of heart against he Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment.John 16:8. There is no remedy available for this sin.

  122. Toml5169 says:

    Your thoughts to Gary are so kind and full of spiritual maturity. I was for a great deal of my life where Gary seems to be only far worse. I was so busy trying to make sure my salvation was intact there was no time or room to build a relationship with my loving Father. The reality is for me and many others that my faith and walk with God grow deeper with the security of my salvation in place as I turn my focus to a relationship that started at my surrender and will last through eternity. Gary
    I too would miss you here and as others have stated I also prayed for you last night. I did not pray out of a heart of superiority but as a brother asking our mutual Father to grant you the peace that comes with security in Christ. I ask you to read Romans 8:35-39 with an open mind. Paul is not writing about coming to faith in Christ but about how God is at work over everything to keep us there. If you van come to the place where you can actually surrender your security of salvation into the life and hands of Jesus, you will find true rest for the soul. You will never turn back, you will grow in faith, you will have deeper relationship with God and fellow believers; and you will be foreverblessed. (sorry for borrowing your name but it fit so well with your post earlier) Gary may you be blessed and a blessing!
    Love in Him

  123. remarutho says:

    Hello Gary & Friends!

    I have been at the bedside of the gentleman I mentioned days ago. He has gone home to the Lord. Even as we grieve, we shout Hallelujah! for him — and for all those who are now reunited with him in the unveiled Presence of God!

    Gary, you are very much part of the BTA fellowship. Much love in Christ is yours — from all the hearts who have shared with you — certainly longer than I have. It is good to hear your thinking and your opinions — though argument has limits. It is a blessing to “think and let think.”

    Perhaps after a season, you will join in the sharing once more…


  124. poohpity says:

    I was thinking this morning about how human nature as well as human reasoning want to earn love. I think at times we doubt that someone could possibly love us as we are. Some people run around trying to show people that they are good, responsible, loving, caring, strong needing no help because they can do things on their own, while God tries to show us even though those things may appear to be good to the senses as far as our human nature is concerned to God they may be as filthy rags. When we do one thing that God calls good we can turn around and take pride in it which ends up striking it down.

    So the efforts we take show the doubt of just totally how AMAZING GRACE truly is. We as human beings love to take credit for things, we love to get noticed, we love to feel needed and wanted, we love respect and we love to feel independent but the reality which God has repeated over and over and over again to us apart from Him we are just a tiny little speak in the whole universe and our days are just a second in time but God in His infinite love wants a relationship with us so very very much He alone provided all we need to have that relationship.

    As we scurry around running to and fro trying to find purpose and meaning the doubt still remains that a God as powerful, all knowing, all seeing and all encompassing loves us just as we are but loves us so much that having a relationship with God changes us. God changes our hearts, minds and souls and if we believe for a minute that we have anything to do with the changes other than abiding in Him then we doubt everything that the bible teaches. Understanding and not doubting the unbelievable Grace of God towards us as human beings is to negate everything Christ did from the beginning of time to the present and onward to the future. We can not earn in anyway what we have been given, The Love of God.

    When we are overcome with the love of God we no longer want to take center stage we want God to be there and everything else falls into place from there.

  125. br00xter says:

    When doubt clouds my belief, I remember a song by Steven Curtis Chapman “I Do Believe”. Belief is an action, doubt is passive. I actively Believe. Doubt enters at your weakest point, so I say “I Do Believe”. It’s like slapping the Devil everytime He shows his face.

  126. oneg2dblu says:

    Just found myself looking through these last few threads left here, and felt a responce needed, although belated.
    First, I do not doubt my salvation, and I never have! Not since I’ve been Born Again. I have the Holy Spirit living in me, and directing me. There is no second guessing, or doubting that. Absolutely None!
    His very Presence fills my life to the full. I am blessed beyond my dreams having both the Author and Creator of my Faith, also be the Defender.
    I have that very same Grace that all Born Again believer’s possess, nothing more, nothing less.
    I trust that God has led Paul, that great teacher of Grace to also be that great teacher of right living,
    and therefore giving us in no certain terms, what things we are to “not be,” to be included in the Kingdom of God. We all who know his teachings, we know his words as well, they are a warning to us given by God for a purpose. I believe them to be absolutely correct in every tence and context they were given in. They are for us, His Church today. But it seems some have formed doctrine that makes them void, and not as conclusive as the very day they were spoken. They prophesy to me, in a way that makes me different then those who choose for themselves, not to listen and adhrere to them. To those, I open my self to all riduicule and persecutions.
    You can read pathetic into this if you choose, or you can read something else. I will leave it to God to decide for each one here, what path they choose to understand and follow. Given In His Love, Gary

  127. fentongroff3 says:

    Doubt is part of our sinful nature, our natural inate rebellion against God. Having bonafide proof beyond human doubt does not cure our doubting capabilities. The Israelites needed NO more proof that God was leading them with a pillar of fire by night and a column of majestic smoke by day—but they still built a golden calf to worship… Jonah still wasn’t convinced of God’s mercy on Ninevah as his anger and doubt toward the Ninevite’s repentance came after a custom made fish devoured him and gently spit him up safely on land…a talking she-ass wasn’t enough to spook Balaam in his rebellion, even after seeing the brilliance of God, Balaam’s faith was not kindled…David chose lust over his great victories of faith in the Lord of Hosts, then planned the demise of one of his own warriors. You see, our propensity to sin, is interwoven with doubt, it is the very essence of why Jesus Christ (Meshuiach)had to go the cross. It is the awnry thicket-trapped ram that proved Abraham’s faith was NOT a fluke, and that Abraham was not a derranged father trying to offer his son Issaac to a false god. It is faith from God that can fill a believers heart and make him righteous and only this grace of faith. For our own doubt, would lead us away and down our own path toward utter selfishness and destruction. Faith must intervene and overpower the doubt that is ever-so-present in every fearfully made human being’s mind, so we can be free to live according to His will. Our doubt, proves God’s grace for us!!!

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