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How Should We Rate this Song?

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Does it take a course in music appreciation to read the songs of the Bible?

I’m wondering this while reading Psalm 5, knowing that David was a man after God’s own heart; remembering that this song has been sung by God’s people down through the ages; and realizing that it is a song that is part of a God-breathed Bible.

The question also comes on the heels of conversations we’ve had about how to read the Bible. In what sense is this song part of the Word of God? Are we to read David’s inspired words as being equal to something God Himself said? Or are we to reflect on this song as if we are taking a music appreciation course from the Spirit of God?

More specifically, I’ve been wondering what difference it would make to read the stories, proverbs, predictions, and letters of the Bible not first of all as God’s words spoken to us, but rather as God-breathed and God-given elements of the story of Christ. In other words, if the Bible was given to tell the story of the Living Word who wants to live His life through us, what difference does that make in how we read and hear every piece and part of the Bible?

With that background, I’d like to think together about the 5th Psalm. I’m hoping you can find the lyrics by running your cursor over the following groupings: Ps. 5:1-3; Ps. 5:4-6; Ps. 5:7-8; Ps. 5:9-10; Ps. 5:11-12.

One of the first things to notice is that these words don’t claim to be God speaking to David, or to us, but rather David’s words to God. Second, they are words that express the king’s request for help in light of his enemies.

Here then is the question I’d like us to think about together: How does David’s attitude toward his enemies (i.e., Ps. 5:10) line up with Jesus’ actions and attitudes toward those who hated Him?

Does that difference matter in the way we now read and apply this song? Could seeing where these words fall in the Bible make a difference in whether we use the Word of God to express the Spirit of our Teacher and God today?

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94 Responses to “How Should We Rate this Song?”

  1. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends!

    In Psalm 5 David reasons from his understanding of God’s character being “abundance of steadfast love,” “righteous” and making “your (God’s) way straight” before the psalmist. (Psa 5:8) David is making his complaint to God, so I am eavesdropping on his prayer/songwriting.

    It seems to me, in his agony of discovering plots and intrigues around himself, David cries out as a mere human to the Creator God. We cannot reach in and pull out verse ten without taking also verses eleven and twelve. Calling for God’s vengeance is a “natural” cry. Allowing that “all who take refuge in you” (God) have reason to rejoice, amounts to praise of who God is. The Lord expects our complaints to become praise, and also trust and hope in his power. David labored under the ponderous Old Covenant. That covenant majored only on sin, not on freedom from sin. Do we not receive Psalm 110 to be a foreshadowing of Messiah (Matthew 22:44-45), rather than assuming that King David did not hear from God as much as he spoke to him?

    Do we not all “sigh” (Psa 5:1) and “plead” (Psa 5:3) before God? I believe God allows much as we pour out our frustration and pain to him. He, because he is loving and righteous, also demands that we behave as much like him as we are able, once we get up off our knees, wash our faces and go out into the world once more.


  2. foreverblessed says:

    Thank you Maru, what can I add to this, I agree fully.
    I have long been struggling with all the pleads for harsh punishment to David’s enemies. That is not who Jesus is.
    But now I see the sighings of David as a proof to me that towards God we have to be real, if we feel vengeance, then we should tell God. To Him we should be totally transparant, not showing we are better then we really are. Like this: God asks form us to be forgiving, then we pretend to be forgiving, instead of telling God what our real feelings are, being true, that is.
    David is showing us how to be real while being a godly man.
    The other thing is: We have to tell God how we really feel, not other humans. This is something that we learn as we grow up being a christian, if you are new in the faith, it is good to have a mate, someone who listens to your complaints, and struggles, but who will always direct you to Jesus. Jesus wants us to share all our intimate worries, vengeance, strife with Him, first and foremost. He should be the number one in our lives. David is showing us how to share all our thoughts with Him.

  3. oneg2dblu says:

    Maru… in answer to your question, actually questions…”Do we not all sigh and plead before God?”
    “Does studying the scriptures increase our faith?” I would say yes to both, and we do as our history in scripture shows we do the same before man as well!
    We are by our very nature are sighing and pleading fallen flesh, and found seeking aimlessly when we depend only on man for our answers. But, when we are brought to our knees, through trials and tribulations beyond even the help of man, then grows our faith in God. Then we cry out to the “only one” who can really provide.
    David probably was being tested and growing his faith
    every time he called out to the Lord!
    His enemies spoken about here may well have been right within his own household, as even his son turned against him. What greater test could man endure than to have his God-given son betray him to death.
    What greater show of faith than a loving son allowing his father to betray him with the sins of the world?
    I hope I’m not to far off topic with that particular stretch of words. But, I believe the greatest faith comes from the greatest testing, for faith that is not tested, can not be trusted, and in whom do we cry other than the one who can really save us? Gary

  4. Mart De Haan says:

    Yes. Well said. One of the great values of the Psalms is clearly to help us be honest with ourselves and God. The additional issue I’m interested in is whether— when we have expressed such honesty and longings– we are reflecting as much of our Teacher’s heart as he is now asking of us…

  5. SFDBWV says:

    Does art imitate life or does life imitate art? Would that it be so simple to say that God said this and that David said that, but the truth is that God’s word is interwoven with what David says even to a fact that David unknowingly will speak only what the Holy Spirit utters through David’s lips.

    This story we call the Bible being an astounding combination of the lives, actions and words of people being the words God wants said and a connection to the future and nature of God Himself.

    Psalm 5 is simple and basic. David states that his enemies are Gods enemies and explains why, David asks for justice against such people and mercy for others who put their trust in God.

    Fast foreword to Revelation and you will see exactly what David has ask for come to pass on an epic and worldly scale.

    Yet you will also see David’s enemies subdued by a combination of David’s actions the actions of others and it all being the will of God for it to be that way.

    How does all of this line up with Jesus? Jesus being the exact copy of the Father has offered everyone even his enemies a second chance.

    The first man fell, the first creation drawn into a fallen and lost state.

    Through Jesus’ offer we have a second chance at creation, a new birth, a new spirit. Freely offered freely given.

    However justice will come and just as forgiveness is also offered to God’s enemies judgment will be given to all who reject His offer of peace.

    Look for yourselves Jesus spoke about hell more than any other speaker in scripture, as a warning to those who reject God’s offer.


  6. foreverblessed says:

    Mart, to answer your question of 9.21 am
    This question is the heart of our christian life:
    We give God our sins, worries, anxieties,
    and He gives us His Life, being Love, mercy Galatians 5:22-23,
    if we ask for them.
    I have heard saying that we should pray until our prayer is turned into a praising. Glorifying God and singing Hallelujah. This is also an aim that I have set myself, as for now it is not happening that often, I usually take back my worries after prayer on my shoulder again.
    But when our sighings turn out into singing we know that the deal is done: our worries, sins have gone to God, and He has given us His ressurrection Life, otherwise we would not have started singing.

  7. SFDBWV says:

    I often feel connected to the men who came to Jesus asking how to proceed with the woman caught in adultery. Connected because we do not yet live in that utopian Kingdom of God where there are no crimes against other people, and criminals must be dealt with.

    All of us see where there is blatant injustice meted out by well meaning judges only to see the recipient of mercy go on and commit a worse crime against another victim.

    Any one of us who have found forgiveness of our sins against God, have also found that we still must deal with the results that sin in our lives produced, that did not disappear with our conversion.

    Our actions and decisions come with either a reward or at a cost.

    Only a couple topics back, Bruce was subjected to someone stealing from his bank account. This rightfully made him angry and want justice. The thief who stole from him is also an enemy of God’s, as that one is guilty of not only stealing, but of not being concerned about the consequences and burdens placed on Bruce, a fellow human being.

    In a perfect world, the thief would have a change of heart and return the money and ask forgiveness, and Bruce would be pressed to give him the forgiveness he asks for. I have heard of such things having been done before by different people.

    So when I am confronted with a potential enemy, I apply all of Jesus’ wisdom in the matter and if I end up with an enemy after all, I am left to pray for them to have a change of heart toward Christ, find a way in my heart to forgive and move on not being a prisoner to anger or discontent.

    I bear the scars of many who have wronged me; happily I can forget many of the trespasses, as over time they have become less and less important to me. Many times God has placed a blessing on me to replace the wrong against me and through the added blessing of time those who would have been enemies have became friends.

    All of this possible only through the Holy Spirit in me and my stepping aside and allowing His Spirit to overshadow mine.

    Yes, pray for your enemies to become Christian and we no longer have an enemy but a brother or sister in the Lord.


  8. poohpity says:

    I think that David’s and Jesus’ response towards enemies are pretty much the same they both did not take matters into their own hands they placed them in the hands of God. David although he was a mighty warrior and very strong man relied on God first and foremost in his life. He did not take the throne from Saul but waited for God to place him there. While he was a shepherd he trusted in God for protection and deliverance and as he faced the giants in his life, as well, he cried out to God. It seems no matter what the circumstances his desire was always for God with a passion that not many men show. David did not take matters into his own hands to face the lies of his enemies he gave them over to God to be his defender and shield because his trust was in his God.

    It does matter in today’s times as well when we face lies, deception, hatred and anger we do not have to take matters into our own hands but give it all to God our defender, protector and our shield then we do not lose our witness by defending ourselves and causing more problems. I rate this song high with lessons of allowing God to do what he alone does the best and exposes the hearts of man whether they really rely on God or in their own abilities which usually ends up causing strife.

  9. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I agree with Pooh with regard to being honest and also Steve above.
    It is a peculiar thing about our humanity but I think it is important and also reflects the previous topic.

    Unless we have been hurt we cannot help and understand others who have been hurt.
    Hurt means pain, there are many forms of hurt, many emotions, anger, sadness etc.
    David is a man after God’s own heart!
    God gets angry, God feels pain, God feels sad.
    Jesus said we should love our enemies and pray for those who dispitfully use us.
    If we never felt anger, pain or sadness, how would we know what to place at the foot of the cross.
    David well knew that to love your enemy required sacrifice just as we have to sacrifice our emotions and feelings to truely love those who hurt us.
    Our real enemy is not those who hurt and use us but the sin that abides in our hearts. Jesus has delt with that with His Life Blood, that is why we should hate wickeness and, as sure as day turns to night, God will destroy the wicked.
    Psalm 5 is a prophetic psalm and an honest prayer from a man called David who understood that, but for the Loving Grace of his God, he to would be condemed to the fires of hell.



  10. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Too many Bobs Bobbing about…LOL

  11. poohpity says:

    I think if we are to read the bible as part of a beautiful symphony orchestrated to show God’s love for us and to open our eyes to His care, concern, grace and immeasurable mercies rather than a tool to beat others up and demand them to live lives that we have a hard time achieving then we can get to know the Living Word as someone we can trust with every fiber of our being. We can then trust God to move mountains, hearts and change lives and rest in Him alone. We can find beauty in every detail of the construction of the tabernacle, every person’s name in the begots, develop a trust in an out pouring of truth from the hearts of those who have shared their intimate prayers with us through trails, fears, depression, abuse, rejection and sorrows. God has allowed us to experience a relationship with Him through the Living Word to get to know about Him and how much love we have been given from the creator of all that exists.

    If we look at the bible as a large book of don’ts rather than an expression of how God has shown Himself throughout history to regular everyday people and has never given up on us to bring us into a face to face existence into eternity we may see the words come alive in a different light and a better understanding.

    Job 6-9

  12. remarutho says:

    Hello Mart –

    You asked:

    “Here then is the question I’d like us to think about together: How does David’s attitude toward his enemies (i.e., Ps. 5:10) line up with Jesus’ actions and attitudes toward those who hated Him?”

    It seems to me David and Jesus had in common the fact that those who hated them were not outside Israel, but rather fellow Israelites. In David’s case, it was Saul and afterward his own son Absalom. The leaders of the church of the day, the Temple in Jerusalem, reserved their most vicious and destructive hatred for Jesus. They passionately hated him – though Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimethea became disciples. Every story of Jesus interacting with these religious leaders had to do with testing his judgment or his understanding of Scripture. (John 8:6) Jesus was hard on them – but he always allowed the possibility that they would turn and be redeemed. Jesus loved many, and hated none.

    When I compare this prayer of King David (Psalm 5:10) with Jesus’ priestly prayer (John 17:25-26), I believe Jesus brings a distinctly New Covenant understanding to addressing his Heavenly Father. Jesus prays with utter authority. He sounds like a loving Son speaking confidentially to his Dad. David is petitioning his God – Jesus instead speaks as an eternal and holy Being who is about to resume his heavenly place at his Father’s side.


  13. Mart De Haan says:

    So are we saying that David’s request for God to judge his enemies reflects the heart of Christ (not in the apocalypse) but in his days among us?

    I don’t hear the Son asking his Father to give his enemies the judgment they deserve. Instead he
    a. Lovingly and truthfully confronts his enemies
    b. Says that he has not come to judge but to rescue
    c. And when confrontation is no longer called for, says, “Father forgive them because they don’t know what they are doing.”

    No we don’t live in a perfect world, and neither did our Lord.

    Seems to me the comments above are right in emphasizing that David’s prayer reflects the honest and understandable longing of his heart as well as the truth that his enemies deserved judgment (that David also deserved for his affair with Bath Sheba and conspiring to have her husband killed)…

    My hunch, however, is that after learning from David to be honest with God, we learn from our Savior how to take advantage of what he ended up bearing for all of us.

  14. oneg2dblu says:

    I wonder what symphonic melody or song of praise to his God was roaming in the mind of David when he was basking comfortably on his mountain top and he saw a beautiful women bathing on a roof and summoned her to his house knowing she was already married. What(god) was he walking with then? Who did his praises focus on that night? After he satisfied himself and was clearly walking his own way. He was not consulting God, or seeking anything but his own passions! To me, he clearly “fell away” and the words of God were not on his lips. Sorry, I always seem to ruin the party with my hard line of walking with God, or walking in our own way, as I seem to never have both at the same time, either.
    Praise God that David was restored because he repented, or turned away from his wicked ways. You can’t serve both God and your worldly passions at the same time and neither could this Psalmist, Prophet,or God-appointed King. When God brings a lesson home for us to grow us, it is usually a tough valley in our lives. David walked through many tough valleys and only when he encountered God, was he raised up out of himself. It is easy to praise God from the mountain top, but it grows you up more when you are in the valley of despair where the big tests are taken. Thank God his word is not all written in psalms. It is his love letter to us, and his song to us, and for us. He is the music teacher here
    whether you like the current tune or not! David’s heart was NOT always after God! Only Christ had a heart always after God. I’m sure someone else would have said it more lovingly
    but we all get to use the gifts he gives us, and we use them for Him, when we obey! David didn’t always obey either!
    I’ll give this psalm, and many of the past posts a praise also for what they as teacher’s,teach us. Gary

  15. remarutho says:

    Hello Mart & Friends —

    The cross is the earthly manifestation of his throne! Jesus made a new Way to journey in the world. The victory over my sin belongs to Jesus. He bore in his flesh all that I have ruined. And, he offers me adoption into the heavenly family circle for eternity. It is the first win-win situation in the universe!

    But, what of the cross am I willing to undertake for him? Too often we shrink back from it, rather than embracing it. My fallen nature resists loving and forgiving those who have hated and wounded me.

    He perfects whoever will allow his love to prevail.


  16. poohpity says:

    Mart, I guess that would be the difference in Psalms 5 and 51. Being sprinkled with the cleansing blood of Jesus rather than a bull that through Jesus our hearts are made right with God for those who believe for all times with a simple admission of our wrong doing and asking for forgiveness. If we lived that, we are given the freedom to be kind, gentle, forgiving, peaceful, loving and full of joy. Then our song of praise would be to exalt the One who gave so much for us.

  17. yooperjack says:

    Right on brother Gary I didn’t have the heart to break the bubble. I couldn’t of said it better myself and don’t you dare apologizes. David was a conspiring killer out of lust for a woman but God found favor with him. Judas was greedy and not loyal to the Master for a few gold pieces and Jesus counted him out of the group in the end.

    That one should’na done it, should have wiped out all David’s add’a boys. Who understands our Gods ways?

  18. foreverblessed says:

    To Mart, no I was not saying that David echoos Jesus, no David utters what is it his own heart. and he tells God, and so should we. We should commune with God, till His mercies fill our heart. God wants to forgive the sinner, Jesus shed his blood for all. for everybody in heaven or on earth.
    Colossians 1:20

  19. poohpity says:

    Noah was a drunk, Abraham was a liar, Moses a murderer and rebel, Jeremiah was a cry baby, Rahab was a prostitute and the list goes on of the very imperfect people God uses for His perfect will. That is why He can use any of us because all mankind has some kinda a flaws but like David, Paul, Peter and others who admit their shortcomings to God and others, are men and women after God’s own heart.

  20. poohpity says:

    Because they seek after God to know Him more and their desire is for God.

  21. yooperjack says:

    Where there no others in Bibical times that God could have used besides a bunch of loseres. Like a Billy Graham type?

    Like I said before when I read any book I pick the roses and leave the thorns. I love our Lord with all my heart but will never understand His ways but will be an obedient follower. I stoped trying to understand Him years ago. What He tells us to do works; that is good enough for me.

  22. poohpity says:

    Do you think Billy Graham was without sin because he always said he was a sinner saved by the grace of God? Through his own admission he was not perfect. :-) No human being alive even Mother Theresa was or is without sin some may be just more obvious than others. We have to rate our songs by the life of Christ and all fall short compared to His and all are forgiven by His.

  23. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart!

    You asked:

    “So are we saying that David’s request for God to judge his enemies reflects the heart of Christ (not in the apocalypse) but in his days among us?”

    While I appreciate your answers, I wonder if I can compare the moral capacity of King David to the moral capacity of our Savior. We do accept David as Jesus’ earthly, royal grandfather through Joseph of Nazareth – manifested as God’s unwavering faithfulness to the crown and the tribe of Judah.

    David’s devotion to the LORD grew over his lifetime. He responded magnificently to God’s mercy and grace toward him. His inattention to how his family was gathered, and the way his sons were reared, caused him appalling grief in later years, even though his own love of God prevailed.

    How do you believe the heart of Christ will change in the apocalypse, compared to his earthly days? I wonder whether the heart of our triune God changes at any time. What would that look like? Can we compare the heart of God-in-the-flesh (Jesus Christ) with any other mortal?

    In Him,

  24. SFDBWV says:

    Hebrews 13: 8 “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever.”

    I can’t see where this statement is up for editing or a modern rewrite. Jesus the same in nature in Genesis 1: 1 and the same in Revelation 22: 20

    We are privileged to get to see David’s life exposed from a small boy throughout his life unto his very death. David was a human being, even though he had a heart that sought after God he also was much like many of us, he had weaknesses.

    How lofty of us to set back and judge his actions and look for his failures so we can feel we may not repeat his mistakes and be better people. The truth is we are all exactly like him in many ways.

    When life becomes comfortable do we not also become complacent with out need to stay close to God? And when trouble comes do we not ask for God to bail us out?

    Jesus became angry at the money changers and physically threw them out of the temple, and warned his enemies of the fate they faced if they did not change their hearts.

    Jesus did ask forgiveness of those who killed him because they were ignorant of the entire matter, but what of those who should have known who he was and yet rejected him.

    Their fate came soon after as there were millions killed their temple destroyed and the inhabitants of the land disbursed throughout the known world, to be known as the “wandering Jew” with no homeland….Forgiveness???

    Who is our enemy today? Is it the neighbor who drinks and does drugs while you work and pay for their welfare?
    Is it those who would steal from you?
    Is it the thugs who would invade your home tie you up and trash your house while looking for anything they can turn into cash?
    Is it the carjacker who drags a person to death while trying to steal their car?
    Certainly you would think the throngs of people who hold up signs and call for the death of America, to be enemies of Americans.
    Or maybe you think of an enemy as being someone who simply does not agree with you?

    So when David asks God to subdue his enemies, if we imitate David and ask God to subdue our enemies, how are we wrong in thinking of asking God to keep the hands of our enemies from harming us? How could this be in conflict with the forgiving nature of Jesus?

    Maru I just wanted to say I enjoyed your comments very much this morning at 3:13 am.


  25. yooperjack says:

    Mart: Here’s my idea why God used the people He used, like David. God is going to get His work on earth done in spite of man. If the polished “good” people won’t do it He will clean up a drunk, drug addict or killer that is willing to surrender all to God and do His work on earth.

    It took 2000 years for the prophets to speak that Jesus was coming, why did it take so long? Then God picked a mere child to bring our Lord in this world.

    It’s not judging to ask openly tuff questions that everyone thinks about. Some of us like Gary and I have no fear of being shun or judged by religious people for doing so. God is not going to condemn us either. And the people on this blog are very tolerant. LOL

    I know Billy Graham was a sinner, so was Mary and Joseph.

  26. oneg2dblu says:

    1 Corinthians 1:26-31 gives us all glimpse of why reading the entire bible, attending ecumenical studies for the degrees of man and the accolades of the learned is not required, or given extra points by God to use you in the way He wants.
    So, if your diction is off, your words are slurred, you methods are hard or rough, your education is limited, your hands shake, your eyes are weak or not working at all, it doesn’t matter to God, if your heart is the right place, He will place you where He wants, and if the rest of the world can’t see it, God can still use it to His Glory!
    Man will always pick and choose for himself what he thinks is right for him, but God knows we do not always make the right choices. But, if we confess our weakness, our faultings, our shortcomings, our intolerance, our bitterness, our evil desires, and give Him the ability to change us and willingly submit to His Spirit in us, we have a chance at Glory. That to me, is His Story, and David’s God-given life and Song!
    It can be ours as well, if we could only confess and repent, then the Obedience part, which many feel they are hopeless to do, comes as naturally as His change comes upon us. Gary

  27. remarutho says:

    (Luke 3:7-8)

  28. SFDBWV says:

    Yooperjack you ask in an earlier posting (January 5, 8: 32) were there any others God could use except a bunch of losers? I also immediately thought of Joseph and Mary, though there were many good people God used all throughout scripture.

    That is, good as good gets, in a world filled with lost souls.

    Enoch comes to mind, as well as Lazarus the beggar, also there is Isaiah, Samuel, and John the Baptist; and what of the Centurion who sought out Jesus to have his servant healed as well as the likes of Joseph of Arimathaea.

    Just like today God uses good and bad people to exact His will, while many of us can admire the good people among us such as Billy Graham, we can also be moved to tears when the worst among us acknowledge their need for Christ and become a believer.

    Also there are countless millions who have been faithful to God all their lives, we should never turn up our noses at them for their obedience and desire to please God, just because they were not murderers, thieves, whores or whoremonger’s.


  29. yooperjack says:

    Steve: Amen brother, now if we can just teach these church folks to love and accept those “low lifes” maybe more of them would go to church and get saved. So many christians want to be fish cleaners rather than fish catchers.

  30. remarutho says:

    (1 Corinthians 3:16-17)

  31. oneg2dblu says:

    Yes, we are supposed to be intolerant to some things, and we are commanded to hate some things as well. But instead, we say things like all the others have before us, as we are many times accusing others for our wrong, not taking responsibility for our own inappropriate thoughts and actions. Do we make right choices? Do we never fail? Do we not shut out many things which may be just what God puts there before us, feeling we know better?
    To be human is to err, but to be Godly is to rise above the fray, overcome the world, be ever present in the Lord, and leave behind our old nature of wrongly motivated choices.
    As Paul says in his leaving behind and pressing forward message, which is not works by the way as some here would label all human effort, but it is a God-given purpose filled life. It is Paul’s song given by God, using Paul’s life and words, just as He used David.
    To God be the Glory of all who understand that His story touches us all in a different way, because this defiant body and world we live in, is so varied beyond just our thinking that we know what’s right. Obey God in your new nature, in your God-given way, not your old desired sinful one, and leave the consequences to Him! Just thinking out loud… but also using some words. Gary

  32. yooperjack says:

    remarutho:?????? I don’t get it.

  33. poohpity says:

    Gary, sounds like Charles Stanley.

  34. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    I have just been reading Ephesians 1 & 2 again.
    Even though David had a heart after God’s own Heart did he ever fully understand what God was about to do for us through the Birth,Life,Sacrifice,Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus Messiah.
    We are the redeemed of God, bought with a price and have all power and authority through Jesus Christ our Lord and King. We are seated in Heavenly places with Him right now, not to mention the age to come!
    David was a human, as are we, and like us he was surrounded by enemies and troubles that he took honestly to God in Prayer.
    Like us, sometimes he failed and let the flesh rule his heart instead of God. Like us God had given him His Spirit and he was an anointed king.
    Because Jesus cried “It Is Finished” and gave up His Spirit and returned to His Father, we now have the Holy Spirit living in us. We are His Temple and He said He would never leave us or forsake us.
    Like Mart said…
    “My hunch, however, is that after learning from David to be honest with God, we learn from our Saviour how to take advantage of what he ended up bearing for all of us.”
    In other words “It is no longer I that lives but Christ Jesus Living in me”
    Let’s start “taking advantage” of all that Christ has done for us!


  35. remarutho says:

    Beautiful, Bob!

    You have blessed us all.


  36. poohpity says:

    Sounds like you really understand, Bob, what Christ beard for all of us. At times I have to admit I get confused as to why but He did. The freedom that is found in that, to no longer be chained to sin or it’s consequences should help us to walk around with our heads held high as a forgiven child of God boasting in what God did for us but how many use it as a means to put down other people and present feelings of superiority. Rather than seeing it as an undeserved gift they feel they have every right to it. Some days, like this one, I get caught up in “what for”? When even among the brethren it is nothing but conflict, malice and the song gets turned into mourning and dread. Just having a bad day today. :-(

    Job 10-13

  37. Bob in Cornwall England says:


    You are loved by God, our Daddy and Friend.

    I hope and pray your day is not as bad as the one Job had and that He sends you a friend that can understand….


  38. yooperjack says:

    Maru: How does 1Corinthians 3:16-17 apply to the subject a hand? I didn’t get it. Your post at 9:50 AM.

  39. poohpity says:

    Thank you friend, I was waiting for you to come visit. :-)

  40. poohpity says:

    I think Maru wrote that passage regarding that we are all together, no matter our background, members of the house of God in Christ Jesus.

  41. yooperjack says:

    Pooh: Okkkk??? That’s verse 16. Why verse 17?

  42. poohpity says:

    The church can be ruined by divisions, controversies, and prejudices. People in the church at Corinth were using different standards to elevate themselves above each other with pride and elevating the presentation of the message rather than the content.

  43. yooperjack says:

    This is my point: I knew what the verses mean but was wandering; where is the division or prejudice on this blog? There is alway controvery, if you have more than one person comeing from different churches and areas. That is how we learn; it would be boring if we were all cut from the same cloth. And everyone says: “AMEN”

  44. poohpity says:

    If you will read what you wrote than Maru was giving that verse to back up what was said.

  45. bratimus says:

    Genesis 3:15

    This is the enemy

    this is where division and controversy come from

  46. yooperjack says:

    Thankyou Maru and pooh. Now I understand. I just didn’t get it.

  47. yooperjack says:

    It wasn’t addressed to my post so I thought it was out of the blue and couldn’t connect it to the subject. Maybe we should get back on topic?

  48. oneg2dblu says:

    yooperjack… I believe when the word body is written in this context of where the Holy Spirit now dwells, as in the temple of the born again believer (not the church.) Sorry pooh!
    That is why sexual sin which involves “the body,” or God’s temple directly, is so condemning in the word of God. It directly infects and devalues the very body we “are to be using” for Him. Unfortunately, the very temlpe/body we are using to have this defiled association with others, is also defiling the other one we are having sex with. Sex in that light, is never safe, or without consequence. No matter what you choose to believe. Being free from that condemnation is a myth of the mind if you continue living in your old body and calling it a temple reborn of God, where you are still lusting in your heart and fulfilling yourself sexually, for then you are worshiping only yourself as a god. Good luck with that type of deceptive security.
    Only in marriage, and where a marriage is defined by God, not a man appointed as a Judge somewhere or two consenting adults,as sex between one man and one women only. That is the only marriage that is considered Godly! Any other form is directly against the word of God. Of course, that is my closed minded view, but it does align with the Word as I have been taught, and as I understand it. For the ones here who understand they are “not affected” by God’s clear commands on even this issue, because they tell themselves they are really loving and not defiling one another, and because of their form of salvation says they are okay, they tread at your own peril!
    “Oh, the hard lessons are back on the board again, and no one but God can erase them, unless they live disobediently to the word, and without the Fear of God.
    I’ll bet Charles Stanley does preach that stuff mixed with his eternal security found so popular today.
    Which to me, is not the purpose of salvation, because once you are saved, things must change, if you really live for Him… “No matter what!” Gary

  49. poohpity says:

    Actually it was a very good example of the topic as applied to the last paragraph of what Mart wrote. :-)

  50. poohpity says:

    Having a difficult time trying to understand what sex has to do with how we deal with enemies or how we read and hear what is written in scripture.

  51. oneg2dblu says:

    “To give a thumbs up where you know something is wrong is the worst kind of mean.” Sorry,I do not remember who said that, but it applies to us here who tell others they are okay when we know they are living outside the word of God.
    True, we gain a friend for ourselves thinking that is the more powerful thing to do, but at the cost of the power of the truth in the word, I sometimes wonder, “Why not cut to the chase, tell them the truth and stop chasing friends for ourselves?”
    I’m sure some of you are saying, “Boy this guy is so hard, unloving, and is certainly has no respect for others. But isn’t that a “well written biblical reference” for how God would treat some of us as well? “Do not foool yourselves, God is no respector of Persons!” When does sharing the truth suddenly become so evil, or pride filled? Who decides what it is best, whether to befriend and just hang out with people, or when we should share rather than avoid the truth, tell them “in love of course” even the hard truth? I guess that would be when it becomes less personal for them, not seen as an attack or threatening to them, right? But, who decides that for us if that message is really truly flowing through us, should we then stiffle even God’s Word? Gary

  52. bratimus says:

    I think Gray was refereing to sexual immoralities is one thing that attacks the temple of God. and the came up from posting 1 Corinthians 3:16-17

    There are a lot of thing that can defile the Temoles of God, even the words that come out of the mouth.

  53. remarutho says:

    Good Evening Mart!

    I do not find the thread of your topic as I return to the discussion. I believe I may have missed something –or perhaps I am missing a side conversation.

    King David was born a member of the tribe of Judah. He was born a mortal and died a mortal – flesh and blood all the way. I believe the Lord worked miracles in his life. The Lord blessed his reign, and forgave him his sins, according to the Old Covenant.

    Mart, you included in the description of Jesus’ dealings with those who hated him:
    “And when confrontation is no longer called for, says, ‘Father forgive them because they don’t know what they are doing.’”

    From the cross of his sacrifice, Jesus spoke those words (Luke 23:34) you quoted. He lived his life in the world fully human and fully divine. There was no more confronting the religious leaders of the day as a man in the world, after he gave his life for us (and for them). He rose from the tomb as the first-born into a glorious New Life.

    While we honor all the prophecies made about him – such as he would be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14), born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2) – we now hope in his glorious resurrection. Jesus Christ is the better Way to live this life. Only by his presence in us, jars of clay (2 Corinthians 4:7) can we overcome our fallen nature – the nature that makes us resort to hatred and violence between persons and nations. We have a long way to go.


  54. bill34sl says:

    Slaying a giant, no doubt David was a fearless young man. Yet he was not quick to shed blood at all (1 Sam.25:32-34). Neither was he a hot tempered person, was forgiving to those who asked, and remained humble even as a king. In dealing with his enemies, he didn’t take matters into his own hands. He always asked the Lord God what course of action he has to consider. In that way God delivered all his adversaries into his hands. True, David fought and won many wars. But I believe more than anything, he considered himself to be God’s instrument in executing His judgment on those people. We read in Psalms how David prayed to God to intervene and defeat his enemies because they are God’s enemies too. In spite of all his deadly campaigns, God called David a man after His own heart. Although Jacob foretold long before that the Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah (Gen. 49:10), it wasn’t because of anything Judah himself did, but primarily because of what King David was all about. It just happened that David was a descendant of Judah. No one from the eleven other tribes had earned much grace in God’s eyes than David. God promised, as a reward, that the throne of David will be established forever. That’s why the Messiah (Jesus Christ), had to come from David to sit on his throne and rule for a thousand years.
    Even so, when Jesus came to earth, he was not a sword wielding guy. A far cry from David as a warrior. Luke 9:56(KJV) says: “For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them”. So He didn’t lift a finger to those who beat and tortured Him. Jesus lived up to His words: “If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also”. Even in His dying moments, he didn’t pray for the destruction of His oppressors, but instead, asked God the Father to forgive them. But that wasn’t the end though. The Bible says there is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens. At Jesus Christ second coming, He is going to war and will crush all His adversaries. His judgments are true and just (Rev. 16:7). By then, it comes to full circle.

  55. poohpity says:

    Mart, you asked, “Could seeing where these words fall in the Bible make a difference in whether we use the Word of God to express the Spirit of our Teacher and God today?” I was wondering if at times people seem to express only a small part of our Teacher. It seems sometimes people take the grace without the truth which leads to lawlessness or take the truth of the Law and become a legalistic approach while neglecting the grace. It would be nice if we could understand and take hold of all of it so that not just one part would been shown or taught above another but all given equal time and attention for a fully rounded knowledge to express the Spirit of our Teacher and God.

    Taking only fragments from here and there and trying to piece together something that we may never fully understand would tend to make it harder and more complex than needs to be just because of not being in the Living Word and gaining all that we have been given to learn. How can we even begin to talk about something when we only have a glimpse of what is written. How can people give a book report when they have not even read the book? I have always wondered what is it that prevents people from reading it yet they feel comfortable talking about it as if they know?

  56. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    At our bible study and prayer time last night I realised something!
    Off and on I have known about Jesus and had a relationship with Him since I was 15 years old, but only now am I starting to believe what the Bible says is absolutely true.
    David was a man after God’s own Heart.
    Faith comes from reading and hearing the word of God and then putting it into action.
    As with David, knowing is not the answer, God and His word must be written in our hearts then the Kingdom of God is a resality both in us and on Earth.


  57. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart and Friends!

    Mart, you have asked us to link David and Jesus with respect to our own life-choices, if I understand your clarifying restatement. You wrote:

    “…whether— when we have expressed such honesty and longings– we are reflecting as much of our Teacher’s heart as he is now asking of us…”

    Once, Jesus healed the man by the pool of Bethsaida and then fed the 5,000 by the Sea of Galilee, then walked on the water. The teaching and controversy in John 5-6 yields in part what Jesus asks of us. The crowd asks, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” (John 6:28) Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (John 6:29)

    Some just wanted this prophet to heal their sick and give them more bread. Some wanted to make him king (John 6:16). Some wanted to discredit what he was doing, and asked for a sign (John 6:30) after he had just performed signs of healing, miraculous bread and supernatural command of the water.

    Jesus fulfills the Old Testament in the truth of the bread: “I am the bread of life.” (John 6:47) God gave manna in the desert – now Christ is the “bread that comes down from heaven.” (John 6:50)

    Jesus’ command is to take into myself (enacted by Holy Communion) his very life. He is spiritual bread. He says, “Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” (John 6:51)

    Some do write psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, like David. Some build houses, or cook, teach or repair things…according to their gifts. Our true work is to believe that Jesus Christ is who he says he is, and to share that nourishing Word.


  58. remarutho says:

    “Some wanted to make him king.” (John6:15)
    “I am the bread of life.” (John 6:48)
    Sorry, typos!

  59. yooperjack says:

    pooh: Maybe if it was illigal to read the Bible, more christians would read it. Too many Bibles are gathering dust on a table. All the Bible some get is at church on Sunday. Everything they know is from their Pastors sermons. I have to admit I read mostly the NT because Im a slow reader and we are in the new covenet age of grace not the age of law. The main thing is I am a doer of the Word not just a reader.

  60. yooperjack says:

    pooh: I use to read the OT when I was teaching adult Sunday school and 4th grade boys; so I know all the stories.

  61. oneg2dblu says:

    Maru… what an excellent singular breakdown of a many part filled much leading and directing question. A
    cutting to the chase of you will. I do like that singular premise over a lengthy retort with many bunny trails to side track us. Simple minds do well with simple questions.
    When I look at a singular part only, and if I derive my answer to that point only, than like pooh has stated so thoroughly in her (we can’t take a part only and make that our whole answer,) I say, to those who now turn their cheek, and pray to God to forgive those that come against them for their lack of knowledge precedes their actions, than I would say I suffer a great lack in my ability, to separate out my humanity which must suffer the gross unrighteousness of this world as I attempt to live more righteous in it. I am not taking my life and giving it up for others to allow my Father’s Will to overcome my teacher’s heart that is also His Will for me. I sometimes overturn the tables, as I stand against the ways of man that do not serve my God, both with what they do to me and the world around me, because they war against the ways of Our God. For the song of Onward Christian Soldiers comes to my limited mind right now, as if coming from the teacher’s lesson plan itself.
    I guess I’ve marched out and put on the armor again out of fear of losing the battle to the weakening and volnerable parts of my body, which is now His Temple according to the Teacher’s lessons, that He has chosen to teach me. Gary

  62. oneg2dblu says:

    Then comes this thought… “Who led me here to communicate with this particular group of believers? What can we teach each other while we remain here?
    Are we still willing to speak to and to teach the other, even if they have hurt us?
    So, I feel we do not persever here for ourselves alone?
    No, we are never alone if we are also for Him would brought us here! But, that is just the way my mind ticks. :)

  63. yooperjack says:

    Gary: The only way some one can hurt us is if we value them. And if we value them it may because we can learn from them. If they continue to hurt us then no longer value them and write them off. We can’t make people love or like us. This idea works for me.

  64. Bob in Cornwall England says:


    There seems to be confusion in what you said above, 9:30am.
    I am reluctant to say anything but something is wrong here and you seem to be upset and hurting and need to seek fellowship to help lift you from this.
    I may have missunderstood what you are saying due to our different structures in the way we speak English in the UK to the US.
    But you seem to be trying to live a “righteous” life in your own strength and getting bitter and angry when you see others “flaunting” their unrighteousness in your face.
    We all fail sometimes, but the reality is our Righteousness is only found in Him, Jesus, we are nothing in ourselves. That is why we cannot condem anyone else who falls short of the perfectness of Christ.
    Jesus gave us one great command “To love one another as I have loved you” and to forgive those that hurt us.

    Please don’t hold it against me for saying what I have just said.
    I wish I could reach through the screen and give you a big hug.


  65. poohpity says:

    Jesus turned over the tables, Jesus was God incarnate. It is not our job as human beings to take on the role of Jesus unless we are beyond the grasp of sin as He was. Even putting ourselves in that role says a lot about how we view ourselves. That is a pretty large role to live up to which no human being is capable of doing.

    Mart asked, “Here then is the question I’d like us to think about together: How does David’s attitude toward his enemies (i.e., Ps. 5:10) line up with Jesus’ actions and attitudes toward those who hated Him?”. I think they both showed “TRUST” in God for the results. David trusted God enough not to take matter into his own hands but gave those cares to God. Jesus trusted the final judgment of those who hated Him also to God while in the mean time showed God’s love by acting in a way by walking away and then finally showing mercy even while they did not believe. They both trusted God for the results not their own efforts. We could learn a lot from these actions and attitudes.

  66. poohpity says:

    Job 14-16

  67. yooperjack says:

    Bob: This is the problem with a blog we can’t give anybody a hug. That is why I said if someone hurts our feelings, even if it’s just with words, right them off, don’t read their post, don’t let them steal your joy. End of problem. A blog is the sharing of ideas and experinces, that’s it, no hugs no indept descussions. The readers digest of ideas and experiences.

  68. oneg2dblu says:

    It seems the message of why we are here is possibly getting through. Thank you, as we each step up to the plate of teaching others. Thank you all for your heartfelt words and leading, as I trust Christ will come through your words.
    But, why they are they not to found in mine? How strange is that?
    How good to help those who don’t have our understanding,
    which of course is always right to us, when we are all trying to share His truth. Why do we then label some as pride filled when they share, and others, those who agree with us, as being loving saints. That is really beyond my understanding. Unless we are also equaly judging othres by calling them full of pride,in need of counseling, or directing them to our particular pointed scriptures and ignoring those they are led to share. Just because I do not fall into your “doctrinal position,” like finding a new sense of freedom in your ongoing sins, does not mean I do not Follow Christ, or fail to have a relationship with Him, or fail to see His Grace or Salvation. But, it does mean for me, that I need to be actively involved in the process of living it out throught the fruit, pressing on or doing works for Him, that you find as threatening to your now held faith positon. It is a double standard we all process when you think others are not getting His Message. Gary

  69. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Pooh reminded me of Mart’s original question, “How does David’s attitude toward his enemies (i.e., Ps. 5:10) line up with Jesus’ actions and attitudes toward those who hated Him?”

    This question makes me think about how I feel while reading David’s pleas for God to destroy his enemies. I have often felt that to pray in those lines was in total opposition to Jesus’ words: “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.” Luke 6:27-28

    Are the people who I come across in life who hurt me or lie to me or cause me pain really my enemies? Isn’t my true enemy the one who came to kill, steal & destroy?

    Because of Eph 6, I am always thinking that our struggle is not against flesh & blood. Our real struggle is spiritual and our spiritual enemy uses those around us to hurt us and tempt us.

    The clearest example of this to me is Matt 16:22-23. Satan uses Peter, Jesus’ follower and friend, to tempt Jesus into setting aside God’s will for Him to go to the cross. Jesus skips Peter entirely and rebukes Satan, even though it was Peter who spoke. How often does a friend who is trying to save us pain and suffering actually cause us to walk away from God’s will?

    So when I read Psalm 5:10, I see my enemies as Satan and his angels who have rebelled against God and who roam the earth seeking to destroy God’s people.

    When I encounter a neighbor who hurts me or lies to me or tempts me, etc, etc, I pray for them because I know they really don’t know what they are doing. Just as Peter didn’t know what he was doing when he suggested to Jesus that nothing bad should happen to Him. Peter was a tool being used by Satan.

  70. poohpity says:

    In an article from Mart 11/2011 “A Faith that Works” one bullet point said, ” BECAUSE WE BELEIVE Jesus Christ is our Savior, Teacher, and Lord, we want the attitudes He shows toward His friends and enemies to be our attitude as well.” God is so very capable if we trust Him.

  71. yooperjack says:

    One more short story and I will give this subject a rest.

    A freind and fellow worker of mine and I were looking at his new hand gun one day, when out of the blue he said: “I’d like to shoot all the people that ever hurt me”. I said: Bob, “You would have to start with yourself because you are your own worst enemy.” I could say that to him because I knew him really well.

    Don’t worry about Bob he pasted on to a better place.

    I had a school princible tell me that I was my own worst enemy when I was a teenager and it made me think, maybe I’m not always right. LOL We need to hear the truth some times it sets us free.

  72. poohpity says:

    I guess Gary it would be nice if you commented on the topics that we are given to think about rather than bringing YOUR choice of topics into the mix. Your messages are just that, your messages while saying they are from God, normally they have nothing to do with what we are talking about because YOU would rather take them in a different direction. No respect is shown to others it always seems to be about YOU. Then it is everyone else who seems to be in the wrong when they try and get you to focus on the topics which has proven over these many months an impossible feat. Could it be that maybe God is speaking through Mart on his blog to get our focus on God alone, after all this is his blog, not yours. If you truly are hearing from God then tell us what He has to say about this topic. Could it be possible that it is you not getting the message? Could it be over all this time that God is speaking only to you about the messages you seem to think everyone else needs to hear? That those messages are intended for you alone, for you to apply to your life.

  73. foreverblessed says:

    Amen Tracy, this point you bring up: It is the dark side of Satan’s world which is God’s enemy, and so it is ours. It is the dark force in other people that make them as they are, and they are blinded to see this. So we love the people, but we fight against the dark evil spirit world. Ephesians 6:10, 11, 12-19.
    Someone has written here sometime ago (in authority over the devil): fight with the armour of God with the evil world, but weapons down when facing people of flesh and blood.

  74. foreverblessed says:

    Gary I am very sorry that you are hurting.
    Why are you words not taken as uplifting you ask?
    You know, this is what you wrote:
    -Just because I do not fall into your “doctrinal position,” like finding a new sense of freedom in your ongoing sins, –
    Why do you write this?
    You agreed to my last post to you, so I do not understand why you still write this?

  75. oneg2dblu says:

    I’m ready to move on as well. Please allow me one more story. My world, the one I wake up to everyday is brightly colored by my Lord. A full spectrum of blessings surrounds me in every realm. Usually first comes the spiritual, then maybe I focus on the time of day in the strength of the morning light upon my vision, then other things fall into place more closely physical in nature, like touch, smell, taste and the like. Nothing extreme or crazy, all is well within my soul. I am blessed! Except anywhere that sin would try to enter that innocent picture. Then, even the innocent colorings of early morning slumbering turn into a very sharp black and white world, a picture of choice.
    They are extremely well defined for me, not lost in a fuzzy thinking, but a clear outline that says, Stay Away!
    Do not handle lightly; do not try it again to see how Grace will react. Do not test the waters of complacency
    where sin lurks, waiting to devour you again and again. Things can get extremely real for me when God’s word says, we are to hate sin, and love good. To me that is pure black and white. I can’t recolor it my way, saying that my form salvation now makes it a gray issue for me. Not that I think for one moment that His Grace is not sufficient and my faith is lacking and needing another testing. But, the lessons learned by right living should not go without their repetitive merit. Absolute perfection I do not ever expect while living in this body, but right living as much as it depends on my doing it, is what I shall endeavor to keep pressing upon myself through much abstaining and much effort. Hanging in bars is not my mission field to help others find their way out, but keeping myself out of where temptation lurks for me, is a full time mission of mine! I will never light another one up to see if I’m really cured of my old smoking days!
    I know better! Toying around with a little sin here and there in my life is a dangerous slipping slope, a place I choose not to be again. Praise God, he gives me the will to stay away from many dangers I’ve loved and lived with in my past.
    I do not take for granted my current state as I know from the word, that a falling away can and does happen, to many who have let their guard down. I’m not a mature enough Christian to take that chance. That is for those who sit at another table than the one I do. I trust that no temptation that befalls me has not also fallen upon others, who through His Holy Spirit’s help I have overcome them! Loose words maybe, but they are also very living to me, as they daily press upon my flesh. Gary

  76. foreverblessed says:

    Dear Gary, I see that you are working very hard to avoid sin. That is very good.
    Although it is maybe better to overcome evil with good Romans 12:21, so fill yourself with Jesus’ character traits, which you only can by asking God to fill you, by meditating on them, by singing about them, spiritual songs. Fill your mind with White, and the black will have to retreat.

    But that does not answer my question why you assume that others here on the blog are free in their ongoing sin?

  77. yooperjack says:

    Gary: Your carrying way too heavy a burden. The Spirit gave me these verses for you to think on. Galations 2:20-21 really consider verse 21, also Romans 5:13 and Corinthians 5:17-21. We are forgiven, Jesus paid it all on the cross.

  78. remarutho says:

    Good Evening Mart & Friends —

    Way late answering back. Had to be out of town all day. My heart goes out to you, Gary, for you have great love and loyalty for Jesus. It is clear he has journeyed with you out of a dark place. Thank you for being open and transparent in your sharing here.

    I humbly offer the story of John’s gospel, chapters 5 & 6, as evidence that New Covenant life is mysteriously fueled in us by the Bread of Heaven. Please slowly read that passage of Scripture. I came to the end of my own resources for living a long time ago — when my now adult children were in grade-school. There is only Jesus between me and the disintigration of myself.

    I am on your side, brother. Perhaps you remember Amy Grant’s old song, “The Warrior Is a Child.” I can only wait and watch for the Lord to defend me, and trust him.

    Yours in Christ,

  79. remarutho says:

    Correction: Twila Paris, not Amy Grant — sorry! Wow, I am old! ;-)

  80. oneg2dblu says:

    yooperjack… I live by Galations 2:20 every day!
    I am a born again believer, but I was not born again to continue in my old nature, and remain unchanged. Others here may feel differently, and because of their salvation, there really is no need for them to change that which they believe is already forgiven, past, present, and future, according to their doctrine where even the unconfessed and unrepentant are forgiven. I am not of that mindset, or following that particular teaching, attending that type of church, or the type of doctrine and teaching they chose to follow.
    Because we are not under the law anymore, it does not mean we can live righteously by ignoring it.
    My taking heart to “not ignoring” verses like Galations 5:16-26, as I remain changed through His Grace that took me out of my old ways. I do not envy those who still are in them. I am burdened for them who still practice those things and call themselves Christians living for, and Following Christ. I shutter at the hipocracy! I guess I will always feel sorry for them, instead of telling them they are doing great just the way they are. But, I’m an old school, hard lined extremist, living amoung the already forgiven, who feel for themselves, its cool to eat, drink, and be merry in even your sins today, for your living in your salvation now, and you could never fall away. But if you do… then they are taught, you were never saved to begin with!
    That is certainly man, over—-streching of the word of God to make sinners feel they are just fine. This a great problem for my beliefs which are also founded on those verses that say, “I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
    There is a definite conflict there, and I did not create that conflict. I only bring it out here, to benefit those who believe they are home free in their sin, “No matter what!” To me, only judgment day will resolve this issue or conflict amoung us, and there, there will be no earthly judging needed!
    But here, don’t we all judge for ourselves what we will or won’t tolerate, and what we will also believe? Gary

  81. bill34sl says:

    Yes, God used all kinds of people to bring about His plans and will. People who we may call losers and winners. Talk about losers, it’s quite strange that God once used someone with an unforgiving attitude to bring about forgiveness. The prophet Jonah was so bitter that he wanted to die rather than see the people of Nineveh, who just escaped God’s judgment, enjoying a new lease of life. But the message was clear. When God was man in the person of Jesus Christ, He was not judgmental at all, but was very forgiving, because He was setting and example for us to understand and to emulate, that man’s lot is to forgive. Vengeance and judgment belongs to God only. Nevertheless, God would rather hold on and suffer long. That’s why when somebody wronged us, we have to pray to God to help us acquire a forgiving attitude because we struggle big time in this area of life. Tell Him we felt aggravated, and if vengeance is His will, then let Him do it for us, otherwise forgiveness will suffice. Something David kept doing before fighting the Lord’s battles.

  82. yooperjack says:

    Ok Gary I hear you, but I thought it is such a burden to carry if we believe an unconfessed sin will send us to Hell, because if we are guilty of one we’re guilty of them all. That would worry me to death. My brother inlaw believes the same way as you do so your not alone. Let us agree to disagree on this subject.

  83. poohpity says:

    The one thing about David in Psalms 5 was not his trust or dependence on his self but on God. He did not seem to have an intellectual faith but a saving faith not dependent on what he could do but in what God can do.

    When someone writes something and mentions their selves more than they mention God one can see where their focus is. David who was a man after God’s own heart seemed to pursue God in all areas even his failures as he wrote in Psalms 51. He realized that it was only God who could cleanse him, help him to deal with his enemies and restore his life. Everything David had, everything he did, everything he was he gave credit to God.

    In our posts if me, myself and I are mentioned more than God would that cause one to think the most important person in that life is, self? If we say we trust God and have faith in His care would we not set aside ourselves and give Glory to God by allowing Him to work in the lives of others, if we do not feel God is capable then we as human beings try and do the work for God and I do not believe He needs our help. David went to God with an honest heart knowing that God is in control.

  84. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,
    Just dropped in to say hello. Just finished reading the comments from the previous blog topic, so I haven’t read Mart’s intro comment for this blog yet. Looking forward to it though, even if a new topic is posted tomorrow. Well, it’s my bedtime now so I’ll meet you in His presence tomorrow! Really excited about worshipping our LORD with my church family!

    Love to all

  85. oneg2dblu says:

    yooperjack… I do not believe I will be thrown into the pit of Hell for having an unconfessed, or unrepented sin. Never have, never will as long as my faith allows me to confess and repent I will though.I believe our salvation becomes alive and real to us only when we confess our sin filled condition and repent, as that is the first step in our intial salvation, as it is then we can call ourselves a born again Christian. (If) we do call ourselves that, we should then also not be living in unrepented ,unconfessed ongoing repetitive sinning, which was the very state we “were” found in, and saved from? Something to me must change in us, other than our confession alone, if we are truly Following Christ and Living the Word of God. If we do not change, then, we are not being truly obedient to either Christ or God’s Word, or even ourselves if we call ourselves Christian. “If my people who are called by my name… you know the rest.
    Do you know what the NKJ version says in Proverbs 29:18?
    I believe that too! I do carry a burden, but through Christ it is not overwhelming, as I see it as my calling to have it!
    Just as my old temptation is not overwhelming either, now that I have Christ within me, I can say no thanks to the sin that had trapped me. I elieve my current trap has been revealed to me today,and thanks to all of you with your continued work, I may have found the basis for my fault finding nature. My work for many years was to find faults and fix them, I worked on some very large and complex telephone systems and was well rewarded for every fault I could uncover and resolve. Perhaps the Lord has placed this same type of learned burden or work in me,and I use those very priciples today, when looking at the Body of Christ, where the faults are many, and the resolve itself fights back. He is working on me as I write even this… to right those I may have wrongly faulted by my hard line of holding them also accountable to His every Word! A blessing or a curse depending on your perspective, He’s obviously changing mine because of the lessons and people, He places before me. But here I am found guilty of talking about me, myself, and i…Gary

  86. poohpity says:

    Gary, please get some help my friend. God does not put people in charge of finding faults and fixing people that is His job.

  87. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… you have completely overlooked my God-given position of being in “In Christ.” Which would of course, have to supersede all my thoughts, actions and my life, according to the very doctrine you say you believe, where one could never fall away. Because Once you believe you live for Him, and have died to your sin nature. Unfortunately, I can only be seen as pride filled by you!
    That is your judgment, for the Christ in me, sees me just as “not guilty” as He now sees you, even as you charge me.
    I’m not in charge here as you have now published, or any where else on my own, because in Christ there is no self appointment or illusion of one. There are only the gifts I have been given, and the callings I receive.
    If they do not register well with your beliefs, and your personal feelings get in the way, then that is also maybe a work of Christ needed for you as well my friend. For as you point your God-given gift at me, being a mature well versed and well read reader of the bible, a past counselor, and a loving Christian.
    Truth is…there is not “one” among us who does need help, and that is a biblical, legalistic, and a hard truth. For those who point at others, calling others pride filled, are they not also in need of help? Where my finger according to you, wrongfully points at others, does your finger according to you, righteously point? I ask you only this, are you pointing for God, or are you just being you? I trust in God, that this road of accusations we are now treading on, is His well trotten two way street that will lead us both, to point each other to the Lord, instead of pridefully at each other… I totally submit the conclusion and the consequences to Him who now lives and breaths in us. Gary

  88. poohpity says:

    Gary why not join the new topic. It is what you chose to take every topic to and you are still over here. I would think you would be thrilled to join that discussion since you tend to take every discussion to that topic and now that we are talking about it you are not there to give your voice. Yes, we are all in need of help which some us of seek on our own because we know we need it others never admit to that need.

  89. poohpity says:

    Pointing out the sin in others is not a gift, it is a curse linked with pride and self righteousness. 2 Cor 5:16, 21 NLT

  90. myzeal says:

    I agree with Maru who says: “Towards God we have to be real. To Him we should be totally transparent.” In this Psalm 5:9-10, I see David in the likeness of a child talking to his Daddy telling him how others have mistreated him and asking his parent (his ultimate protector) to punish those who mean him harm. It calls to mine some of the words of the song, What a Friend We Have in Jesus. They are: “What a privilege to carry EVERYTHING to God in prayer. In my opinion, a Jesus example of realness is this: Though Jesus did not (so to speak), cry “Off with their heads!” like David did, wasn’t Jesus Himself being real and transparent when at: “…about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Matthew 27:46

  91. narrowpathseeker says:

    Having lived a very diverse life I can strongly relate to Paul’s claim of being a “chief sinner”. I can also relate to the servant who after being forgiven a large debt refused to forgive a fellow servant a small debt. Therfore, I am very much aware that there is a very narrow path between the right and the left of all sin. Nearing the last years of my earthly journey of diverse learning from diverse teachers, I confess that I DON’T understand for certain far more scripture than I DO understand and I often momentarily forget even that.

    In retrospect to Nathan’s report, of the poor man who had been grossly trangressed by the rich man, that infuriated David, it would seem to indicate David’s lack of understanding as well. David could not even determine that he and Uriah were the main characters of that report. Sobeit, I can relate to David also. As I grow I have come to realize I can relate to almost everyone. Could it be that God wanted us to see in this psalm that all of us have much to rise above?…that all of us are at various stages of spiritual development?…..that we all need to see ourselves as clearly as we see our enemies? Although David seemed very much aware of much of his sin nature, he still didn’t seem to see himself in the same light as his enemies.

  92. poohpity says:

    It is easier to look without than within. :-) I am so happy that without Christ there is nothing within.

  93. hoosierbridget says:

    While it appears that David is clearly wanting others to “pay” for their transgressions, Psalm 5:10 brought to my mind the biblical concept of reaping what we sow (Galatians 6:7, Job 4:8, Proverbs 22:8, etc.) I’m also reminded of something that I believe the late R.G. Lee commented, i.e., “pay day some day.” Thankfully, the “reaping” is in God’s hands and not in our own.

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