Text Size: Zoom In

Beyond OSAS

Caught watching our bird feeder

In our last post we pushed from two sides on the question of “Once Saved Always Saved?” I acknowledged that on this issue “there has been longstanding disagreement in the body of Christ” not because I don’t have an opinion, but because it is a fact. Real believers in Christ have disagreed on this.

Sometimes the disagreement is unfortunate, as when real children of God live in constant fear that they are going to lose a grip of faith on Christ—when he in fact has them in his grip (John 10:28). Others press the question in an honest attempt to interpret difficult warnings in the Bible (passages that have been interpreted in a wide variety of ways—depending on assumptions brought to them) (Hebrews 6:1-12).

Another group pushes back on the idea of “once saved always saved” out of a concern that this one idea contributes to a false sense of security and, in turn, to a loss of real faith. Such persons often talk about the danger of relying on a “decision to receive Jesus” rather than pursuing changes that provide an ongoing evidence and assurance of genuine saving faith.

On this point, many of us agree that it is possible that some who over time fail to distinguish themselves as the children of God have never experienced a real spiritual birth. For that reason we urge such persons not to rely on a moment of decision, but whether that decision represents a real faith in who Christ is and what he has done for us.

Beyond that many of us are also convinced that God alone knows the truth about those who claim faith, without ongoing evidence (2Tim 2:19) (Matt 13:24-30)

It’s at this point that I’m convinced it is so important to understand the many factors that can sideline and neutralize the faith of the Lord’s people. When we look at the whole story of the Old and New Testaments we see in the history of the nation of Israel as well as in the Body of Christ that genuine people of faith can be as bad if not worse than those who have never experienced the new (second) birth Jesus talked about (John 3:3).

We’ve named some of these factors in a brochure titled “Ten Reasons Real Christians Can Look Like They’re Not.” The number 10 may not be the right number, but I’m convinced that there can be devastatingly real consequences of:

1. Disappointment With God;  2. Distraction; 3. Dangerous Relationships; 4. Unchanged Tendencies; 5. Self Reliance; 6. Prayerlessness; 7. Carelessness; 8. An Unexamined Heart; 9. An Unseen Enemy; 10. A Lack of Accountability

You can probably think of other reasons. But these give us a beginning point for why it is so important for us not only to be lovingly communicating the Good News to all, but also to be encouraging one another to the challenge that remains (Heb 10:24). Even if it is true that we cannot lose our salvation– there is a living faith, love, and truth that is always at risk.

Vote on whether you think this post is something you'll be thinking about:
Vote This Post DownVote This Post Up (+57 rating, 57 votes)

136 Responses to “Beyond OSAS”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    I am disappointed Mart that you have no opinion concerning the matter of whether you can lose your salvation or not.

    Setting on the fence never gets you very far beyond the fence.

    Setting the onus upon a believer that they control salvation once it is given is giving the enemy exactly what he needs in order to weaken the faith of a believer and tarnish or retard their effort to be Christian.

    The great difference in Christianity and all other religions is that we acknowledge our need for a savior and that we place our eternal future on Him not on an ability for us to then live up to being worthy of the gift.

    I sicken of this subject and the harm it does young and weak believers.

    Make a stand for Christ and do not back down from it, nearly every story of the men of faith found in the scripture shows people who fail, in order to show that only God is able never to fail.

    His free gift of salvation expresses that power in Him to never fail. His gift will not fail or be wasted; I give Him thanksgiving that my salvation is up to Him not me.


  2. foreverblessed says:

    So encourage one another to walk in the free grace of Christ, but walk as if we were alone the one who could win the race, not being afraid not to get the finish line, but to make the most of our time while we live in this body, though we wait for the redemption of this body, which has not yet happened but for which we hope, but the gift of the Spirit is already in us, we already have received the seal.
    1 Corinthians 9:24-27, it is good to encourage each other in this way. But I have been in a church which was pushing so hard with this verse that people got in fear weather they will ever be good enough. It is so important that we are secure in Christ in faith, let no one snatch that faith out of your hands.
    Although God said: be fruitful, let us have many fruits of the Spirit and let they do good to the people around us.
    and this one is also appropriate:
    1 Corinthians 4:5

  3. BruceC says:

    Didn’t RBC at one time publish(and maybe still do) a booklet supporting eternal security?

    My disappointment with all this has not been whether a brother or sister disagrees with my position or that of eternal security; but with the inconsideration shown to all the others here by incessantly and almost obcessively returning to one favorite topic.
    I have been on other forums dealing with different topics and if a poster got off topic the post was moved to another thread. We don’t have that option here so we all need to be careful and remain on the topic chosen. Except of course if someone throws in an important prayer or request.
    I have seen folks get pushed almost into legalism or “contests” with other believers over this topic. Have seen folks deeply hurt thinking they weren’t “worthy”, and even others give up because they thought they lost their salvation over a sin they committed and the condemnation and lack of restoration that followed. And I have seen believers treated as if they were the enemy. All the while satan applauding. What are we doing to ourselves? Is this “love one another as I have loved you”? Or is it turning into a ladder climbing contest where only the “best” are good enough? Lord help your church!

    Soli Deo Gloria!

  4. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends!

    I appreciate and applaud your decision not to lay out your own personal convictions concerning the perseverance of the saints, Mart. You clearly are keeping the forum open – trusting that the interaction of so many contributors will produce a steady flow of ideas about any topic. If you were going to state your own theological position, you would write a formal paper or article, I’m sure.

    I have always appreciated the fellowship of a variety of Christian persuasions. The two major camps of Scriptural interpretation among Protestants do not proclaim one another heretical, when true faith and sound reason prevail. We can lovingly and faithfully hold one another accountable to our acts of personal and corporate piety and our acts of mercy in the world.

    The witness of the Holy Spirit offers assurance to every person who comes to faith in God through Christ. (Galatians 4:6, 7) Paul argues persuasively in that letter for the churches of the Asian peninsula to ignore the teaching of the legalistic preachers traveling around trying to circumcise believers.

    You wrote:

    “Even if it is true that we cannot lose our salvation– there is a living faith, love, and truth that is always at risk.”

    In my travels, I have come across some who have a side-agenda in their faith walk/talk. (Philippians 1:15) At my tender age, I now get a cold, sinking feeling in the presence of those who seek to make others feel suspicious, or fearful or guilty. Coming even slightly near condemning others for their theology is wrong – I pray never to do such a thing. Stating the truth is enough.


  5. Mart De Haan says:

    Yes, Bruce, and I do understand the frustration that you and others have experienced as this issue keeps being pressed.

    Steve, bro,
    If I’m not mistaken, you have on occasion asked those who you believe have misread your intent to re-read what you have actually said.

    My guess is that, given all that you have on your fork as a care-giver, you too might respond after a fairly fast read.

    The issue here is not whether I have a strong opinion on this subject, but rather a judgment call as to what is most likely to move those at both ends to what is most certain and important.

    At stake here is not a matter of whether a person can sin their way out of a relationship with the Savior who has died for all of our sins. Rather what honest pastors, church people, and theologians of the highest rank disagree about is how to interpret those Spirit given texts that warn against the kind of apostasy “falling away” that involves an irreversible denial of Christ.

    I have over the years interpreted even the warning passages of Hebrews as being something other than a loss of salvation. I still do not believe that’s what they are teaching. But I have come to the place of realizing that, in such matters, we would do well not to be dogmatic. What we can be certain about is enough to take our stand on.

    Hope you and others sense my heart on this.

    And, whoops, Maru, :-)… I was writing as you were. I hope that in my explanation I have stayed within the spirit of your note.

  6. yooperjack says:

    My grandfather said many years ago: “Son there are two things you never argue about, “politics and religion” he had no formal education but had wisdom. We don’t even know who we’re arguing with, think about that one for a while. Some of us could be teenagers pulling peoples chains and laughing their heads off at these adults getting all bent out of shape over something they have no control over. Think!!!!

  7. remarutho says:


    Very helpful. Thanks. Perhaps I was a bit hurried in getting down my own thoughts there. :o)

    You wrote:

    “The issue here is not whether I have a strong opinion on this subject, but rather a judgment call as to what is most likely to move those at both ends to what is most certain and important.”

    What you say here is vitally important. When we embrace and live out what can be best understood about our Lord Jesus Christ — the historical, actual coming into the world of God in the flesh — we will have done well for him and his kingdom. (Matthew 25:21, 23)


  8. yooperjack says:

    Friends: It was never individual sins like little sins and big sins that God was at war with; it was our sin nature. Thank God the war is over Jesus won the battle we are free if we will accept the gift of freedom and not be chained to the flesh.

  9. xambassador says:

    Well said.

  10. fadingman says:

    My pastor has a saying: You can lose your salvation, but you can’t lose God’s salvation.

    If your salvation is based on something you did (i.e. a prayer, works, even faith), then you can lose it… you may not even have it. If your salvation is based on something God did (as in granting you forgiveness solely by His grace on the basis of Jesus’ shed blood, and giving you new life through the Holy Spirit – the seal of salvation), then you can’t lose it.

  11. SFDBWV says:

    Mart, your perception and understanding is correct; for almost 13 years I have slept on the couch so as to be near Matthew, as often he needs covered back up or help in rolling over or sometimes just needs to hear that I am nearby. My nights sleep is broken and never complete.

    We are awake somewhere after 4 am and always up around 5 am. I turn on the computer make coffee and Matt’s breakfast, once he is up to the breakfast table, I set down for some coffee and look at the computer, look at emails and look at BTA blog.

    All the while in constant conversation with my son.

    I also take time to gather the 24 hour weather information and get it together to record and send on to the National Weather Service.

    What a great pleasure it is to be outside those few minuets and spend it in prayer preparing me for the day, breathing the fresh air and drinking in the beauty of everything around me and in quiet time with God….That is if the neighbors dogs are not barking.

    Then I set down to the computer again in order to take care of business and *relax* reading the news and the blog.

    Under yesterday’s topic and string of conversation, I ask for your position on the subject, you answered that in the first paragraph of today’s topic.

    Because your topics are complex and often have more than one subject and require more than one reply, I usually try and take up one subject at a time, as equally important sometimes less says more. So my first response is to that first paragraph and answer to my question of yesterday.

    Now in response to your reply to me this morning; Mart I have always had the highest regards for you, and consider you a friend. I understand you have a delicate position here and can’t always say what you would like. Yet being a Christian leader means having opinions and supporting them in favor of encouraging and enlightening those you may influence. I also understand trying to get others to seek answers for themselves rather than just adopting what you may believe, is a wise tactic of being a teacher. I simply wanted to know where you stood on this subject and maybe give it a rest.

    Moving on; I understand there is a subject to be exposed in the warnings to those who call Christ Lord yet He states He never knew them, to the many who fall away and worse drag others along with them.

    I will suggest that there is a difference between the judgment seat of God and the judgment seat of Christ. Romans 1: 32 and Romans 14: 10

    I will have much more to say on the matter, but as you Mart have already stated the nature of my being a care giver draws my time and attention away from this blog to more pressing matters, and it has.


  12. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Didn’t Jesus say we have to see things as if we are little children, in other words simple.
    The Truth of God is Simple.
    The Gospel is Simple.
    I am simple!
    Yes we can loose our salvation, we have free will, we can turn our backs on God and walk away.
    The simple Truth is, Jesus said He would never leave us or forsake us. He would leave the 99 for the one who had strayed.
    I have walked away from God many times, but He has never walked away from me.
    The parable of the prodigal son says it all about God’s attitude to us, but what if the prodigal son decided not to come home, would the Father, God, force him?


  13. eatrono says:

    “Once saved always saved” This topic has been debated, argued among Christians so to speak. Unfortunately, it has not been resolved in the minds of some or maybe many. Salvation is never been entrusted to human control. It only in the hands of God. However, anyone who fully surrendered and totally committed his/her life to God, he or she is saved and always saved. In 2 Cor. 5:17,” Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:old things are passed away; behold , all things are become new.” In Romans 1:1 says, “There is therefore no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:9-11) It is the Indwelling Christ, the Holy Spirit that empowers a believer to be totally and fully link to Christ and to God Himself. May everyone’s aim and motto in life is, “For me to live in Christ, and to die is gain”. Thank you and God bless!

  14. remarutho says:

    Mart & Friends –

    This morning I am reading Genesis 22 –a crucial moment in faith for Abraham. He has received the son God promised, Isaac. Now, God instructs Abraham to sacrifice him as a burnt offering.

    What you say, Fadingman, applies to idolizing anything or anyone. God sent his angel to stop Abraham from actually killing Isaac, saying, “Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.” (Genesis 22:12)

    The Lord tested a faith so strong that, even though he had a knife ready, Abraham told his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.” (Gen 22:5) Abraham believed God and trusted God beyond appearances. Jesus told the ultra-religious men who surrounded him, “…before Abraham was, I am.” (Luke 8:58) Abraham reflects the ultimate faithfulness of God the Father – who gives his only Son for us – removing our blood debt with his own blood. Had Abraham been tempted to put his faith in his own son and heir instead of in God? Surely other treasures, even our own character traits can become idols.

    He proved faithful in the test. Abraham, can help us “stir up one another to love and good works,” as we re-member his story. What a work is accomplished for us in Jesus! God gives us so great a gift – more than he would ask of his friend.


  15. remarutho says:

    My Jesus quote is John 8:58 — sorry! Maru

  16. yooperjack says:

    fadingman: More is said in that one linner from your Paster than all the post on this subject so far. That statment should put an end to all the foolishness. Thank you.

  17. bratimus says:


    our you saying you are a teenager?

  18. foreverblessed says:

    Well, Yooperjack is definitely a he. His past was way too wild to ever be a she, that’s for sure. But I overlooked that. LOL, it gave me a good laugh too, last week, Sorry Jack.

  19. poohpity says:

    The brochure on those 10 reasons was certainly eye opening and worth the read. I think I have gone through most of them but I still get so frustrated with those who think they are beyond or above them. I got so frustrated with myself when I react to situations out of disgust because some can not see things as clear as the nose on their faces. That is when I have to ask myself who do you think you are missy look at how many times you have looked in the mirror and forgot what your nose looks like.

    Mart, I have always admired the way you address issues in a loving way when if it were me the blood would be boiling at the guts some have when the fact is they did not read what was written nor is it understood but you show grace. I guess the point would be, if it was you how would you liked to be treated and I do not believe that would be; being talked down to or called names just because of ignorance.

  20. yooperjack says:

    bratimus: Am I a teenager? Maybe the second time around you know the old saying. LOL Did you figure out why the Gospels are mostly OT? foreverblessed: no sorry needed, I love makeing people laugh but most don’t get my weird humor. You know those people that stay in adult mood and never get in the child mood. Their the one that sit in the corner at a party. Life is very short we need to loosen up now and then. I think all this political correctness is spoiling all the good humor.

    Mart: it’s hard staying on topic. I’ll try harder.

  21. shelterman says:

    if you look at your life (self/flesh) and you think you dont need JESUS you will never be saved!!! but if keep your eyes fixed on JESUS you will always be saved!!! its all about JEJUS (who do we think we are) there is no one like HIM there will be no other then HIM and its not about anyting but HIM and someday we will all stand before HIM!!!!! Mike T.

  22. bratimus says:

    “Once saved, always saved” I’ve seen a person so comforted by this that they live a Life for God through Christ, not even thinking about going to the old ways.

    I’ve also seen a person that was disciplined in walking a life in trying not to sin so they won’t betray God’s gift of salvation. Then hearing a sermon based on “Once saved always saved.” their discipline eased up and headed back to some worldly ways. And their look and believe in the Gospel of Christ might be a little different then the Gospel I hold to now.

    Words can save and words can kill.

    I Believe Christ will never Forsake me and won’t hand me anything I can’t handle, but I still need discipline in my walk to meet Christ part of the way.

  23. bratimus says:


    Are you planting tares in my wheat field.

  24. 4forgiven says:

    I believe that we all have to work out our own salvation with fear (reverence) and trembling… And although I don’t believe OSAS, I likewise believe that we can walk in Christ, with the power of the Holy Spirit and we can be assured of eternal life, not by works, but by the power of God controlling our lives. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light, we will have fellowship with other believers and will be cleansed from all sin. But if we don’t walk in light I believe that Galations 5:19-21 shows that the works of the flesh, and those that practice them will not inherit eternal life.

    I can’t reconcile scriptures that say “make your calling & election sure”, and Hebrews 10:26 that says “if you continue to sin after you have received the knowledge of the truth, that there remains no remission of sins” with there being no action on the behalf of a beliver if they sin willfully. 1 John 2:1 goes on to say that if we sin know that we have an Advocate, why would the believer need an advocate if we don’t need to do anything further with the sin after initial salvation?

    I don’t want to sow discord with my thoughts, just food for thought. I want to pursue peace and holiness, because:

    Hbr 12:14 Pursue peace with all [people], and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:

    Hbr 12:15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;

    I don’t have to agree with my brothers or sisters, but I shouldn’t let this divide or cause a stumbling block for others.

    God bless and speak to our hearts!

  25. yooperjack says:

    bratimus: No, just trying to get you to do some home work on the Bible. A testiment or covenent is like a will it does not go into effect till a person dies. This is a clue. Think!!!

    When a person gets old they say they return to being a kid again; Im at the teenage stage working on adolesent. LOL This is a joke in my neck of the woods.LOL

    My comment on some of us could be a teenager means you have no idea who yooperjack is or anyone else, this is reality. People decieve people now days, it is one crazy world out there. The reason it’s holding together for now is most people are decent, God fearing, hard working folks.

  26. childlikento says:

    Greetings to all, I just wanted to offer a bit of hope to any who fear they might loose the gift of salvation given freely by Jesus blood. I recently experienced a period of time in my life which the accuser gave me many reasons (some I knew were true and some I could not confirm) I should not be saved. I spent time crying out to the Lord asking for forgiveness, pleading for mercy and at times confessing to God my fear of eternity in my current condition (the accusers opinion of me). Then the day came that the Good Shephard lifted me out of the trench, He said Iam always with you. I rejoiced. I don’t know all of the Good Lord’s purpose in all that transpired, but I do know and rejoice in a stronger sense of God with me. He allowed it for growth and development of my faith.
    I conclude that if one’s faith of salvation is challenged they may fight to recover (what was never truely lost) or they may surrender (what they have yet to sincerely accept). God’s offer of salvation last a lifetime. Rejoice in it each day as if it were the first day. In Christ

  27. yooperjack says:

    4forgiven: We need and avocate because Satan is telling God, see: “that Jack is lieing again” and Jesus says “Father, Jack is covered under the blood and has told me he messed up but will try harder next time.”

    Satan is the accuser of the brethern. Oh!! but Praise God we have an avocate in Heaven that is on our side. “WOW”

  28. bratimus says:


    Now that we know ur a tenaged girl being a adult male lol, but that might answer alot of question. lol

    i loook at the gospels as God’s new and finale covenant between God and man.

    To bring the word of God in line with man’s modern day last will and testament is kind of sad.

    man’s will and testament is the dividing of worldly posessions

    God’s word is the promise of a inheritance into eternity.

  29. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Just been reading through the last two posts.
    My conclusion on the OSAS issue is that both sides are true.
    Seems to me that you cannot loose your salvation, but you can loose your crown.
    I asked the question about what happens if the prodigal son did not return home, but nobody responded.

    Once a son(child) of God, always a son of God!
    Once saved we can have a lifelong relationship with Father, Jesus & the Holy Spirit followed by eternity with God and all that entails.
    If we choose to go our own way, like the prodigal son, but refuse to return home, we are still the son(child) of the Father, nothing can change that fact.
    Only when we get to heaven we get there as if going through the fire, like Paul said, and we get there, so to speak, by the skin of our teeth with no real crown to speak of.

    It seems we either go through the fire now and get refined like gold and become more like Jesus or we have it all burnt off later, either way only the parts covered by Jesus Blood get to the “other side”.

    In Church this Sunday the speaker gave a good analogy.
    A sculptor was asked to create a statue of a horse. When the person saw the block of marble he asked “how do you create a horse out of that”
    The sculptor replied “I chip away everything that doesn’t look like a horse”.
    How true that is of us and our walk with God.

    This might be false thinking, but the sin in my life is what keeps my feet on the ground, like Paul’s “thorn in the flesh”.
    Having to go to God daily and ask for forgiveness reminds me of exactly where and who I am in Him and that I am nobody without Him.
    I also find that the less I worry about and hold onto those sinful parts of my nature, the less they become, because God changes me without my even being aware of it and, when I look back I think, I am not doing that anymore.

    What a great God we have!


  30. yooperjack says:

    bratimus: Beeeeep!!!! You got the clue wrong. I was trying to teach you that the NT did’nt start till Jesus died. That was in the last chapters of each of the Gospels. Writings before He died was OT. The “Church” did’nt kick off till the Day of Pentecost. Oh! That we would be in one accord as they were then.

  31. bratimus says:


    I try to keep things simple, in most Bibles Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the page after that says New Testament. never asked for any teaching. I always say the Gospels ratherf then the New testament. Now we have to play Bible trival pursuit on this blog.

  32. Mikek says:

    Most of the comments seem to indicate that we agree by and large that a Christian has been saved eternally and will remain a Christian for all eternity;this is certainly true because scripture supports the idea.

    What scripture doesn’t support is the idea that we keep ourselves in this state. Nothing could be further from the truth. Once we are a believer, we are a new creature, period. Nothing we could do from the moment we believe forward can ever endanger that. Ever.

    If you believe that your salvation can be lost, you have REALLY misunderstood the bible, how you were saved, why you were saved, etc…

    Settle this fact, are you a Christian or not? If so, you will be with God forever. You owe Him praise.

  33. poohpity says:

    There is so much more after salvation yet so many get stuck in that headline of the Good News rather than in the story that follows. Heb 6:1-6 NLT I guess it shows that we get so caught up in the start of the process that coming to the meat and potatoes and the desire to have our understanding of God mature, the little we are given, can get stunted in the growing process.

    I want to understand more and learn more. There seems to be so much more and so much growth that will happen in us if we do not get sidelined in debates and quibbles but live in Christ and be open to Him revealing more and more of Himself. But would He want to reveal all those new things if we have a tough time expressing the joy of our salvation by not even sharing the Good News with others because there is thought to be a catch in what we believe. You can accept the free gift BUT watch out or you can lose it if you do not act a certain way. That certain way is very simple love the God who loves you and watch what he can do in your lives. Christians seem to take on the responsibility of telling everyone they are living in sin while not seeing their own need for grace and mercy.

    Think about it who would want to come into this click where perfection is preached but not practiced. Something as beautiful as the Creator of all that is came to earth as a human being to show how much He loves us even tho we will never be able to live a perfect life. Now that is something to share. It is His love that changes us not our feeble attempts. Jesus helps us to get past the outer person to work on the inner man to change hearts and if our hearts are changed then there will be a change in behavior. We are all students of learning how to love, care, show kindness, gentleness, self control and trusting God with others trusting that He knows what is best for them. What does trusting God look like to you? He set the rules, He created the game, He picked the prize and when it is all said and done those crowns we are so quick to mention get laid at Jesus’ feet because we then realize who was the source of earning those jewels. Rev 4:10-11 NIV

  34. yooperjack says:

    Poohpity: When you wrote: He set the rules,created the game and He picked the prize; it reminded me of a saying a preach said on TV: “Don’t let the Bible get in the way of how you believe”, or something like that. We have to follow all the rules of Gods Bible not just the ones we like. We can’t pick the roses and leave or burn the thorns. Oh! We can but it will come back to haunt us later.

  35. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,

    Dropped in to say hello, and I hope all is well with you. I’m currently reading the comments on this blog topic and wanted to share some of my thoughts with you (no thoughts yet though). Gonna have to postpone because I’m getting sleepy. Getting ready to turn in for the night, and hoping I’ll have an opportunity to share tomorrow.

    Love to all…

  36. canamer says:

    First of all, I’m new here. At least I’m new in the sense that I had to sign up before I could comment here. I am a regular visitor to the RBC website.

    I believe that I have an interesting perspective to offer on this subject matter based on where I’ve come from up to the point where I am now in my life – which is my early 30s.

    To begin, I came from a very conservative background. I was raised in it you could say. In that environment those who wore jewelry and went to the movie theaters were sinners or ‘of the world’. Ditto for wearing short sleeved shirts and heaven forbid if a woman wore pants. The pinnacle of the lifestyle was being saved, sanctified, baptized and then living a life of holiness ’til the day you died. I know the lingo. I was born into it and could probably still handle myself well in a ‘sword drill’. Growing up, I was taught there was a Hell to shun and a Heaven to be gained and if I wasn’t careful I might just end up in Hell myself – even as a Christian. And the ‘rest of the world’?? Well, they were just screwed. They weren’t holy enough. In fact, because of that my first ‘born again’ experience was simply out of fear. Heaven sounded a whole lot better than Hell and so sign me up – and that’s what I did right around the time I hit my teenage years. Of course, that didn’t last. Fear has a way of wearing off and so it was with me too.

    Several years later I of course had to get ‘born again’ for the right reasons. But, it never really was a very enjoyable experience for me (just being honest here). Eventually I moved more into the Evangelical mainstream movement where things weren’t so black and white. It was hard to reconcile that with where I had come from. In fact, I never really was able to reconcile all of that for many years. And then one day I found out about grace and it totally changed my life. I think it was then when I finally began to get what salvation was all about.

    Here is where I am now with all of this – many years later – and with some wisdom gained from the years I’ve lived. I see now that the environment in which I was raised was all about performance. I see that so clearly now. It was all dependent upon me to work out my own salvation. NOTHING was ever secure. Heaven help ya if you die on an ‘off’ day kind of thing. As you can imagine, there was never any peace with that. Sure, you were supposed to be holy but who do you know that is holy 100% of the time? Folks, I’ve sat through Sunday school classes where they preached on one verse: Be Ye Therefore Perfect. Funny thing is, I haven’t met a 100% perfect person yet. And then you wonder why a person can’t enjoy their ‘salvation’? I have to ask myself (and still do even now) what did Jesus die on the cross for in that event? I mean it’s all about us being holy. And our performance. And our rituals. It’s sad that the whole concept of salvation (God saving mankind from themselves) gets lost in that way of living.

    The years have changed my way of thinking on this. I realize now more than ever that I need a Savior. My performance sucks many days. Oh sure, I can still talk a good game. I was under the overpasses of a big city in this country a few weeks ago feeding and ministering to the homeless like Jesus would. But oh how much of a failure I can be (just like the disciple Peter was on occasion). I’ve realized it’s not about me at all and that’s a very good thing. It’s about God. Either he can save me or he can’t. I choose to believe in his sacrifice for me. I’m betting my life on the fact he can save me because of what HE did for me. Since I became a true Christian my desire is to please God. That has totally changed from before when my desire wasn’t to do that. What hasn’t changed is the war against the flesh. Like Paul I say so often I want to do what is right but so often what I do I hate. I long to be perfect.

    But, I have a peace that I didn’t have before. I know that no matter how I feel (and my feelings come and go like the wind believe me) that based on God’s Word his salvation is enough for me even though I do not deserve it. In conclusion, in another twist to my life, I’ve picked up a severe anxiety problem over the last several years. It is my thorn in the flesh you could say. I worry about a lot of things (because that is what you do when you have anxiety) but I don’t worry about my salvation anymore. Which is kind of ironic because before I picked up the anxiety all I used to worry about was my salvation!! The difference is that now I’m depending upon God to save me and not myself! Indeed the more I go on in life the more impressed I become with God and the less impressed I become with myself. Without God and his grace and his mercy I am simply nothing and I would certainly be on my way to Hell (which I still very much believe in).

  37. joehoffman says:

    i have to agree with Steve. I spent a year reading Oswald Chambers daily devotionals. And after a year I was convinced that I was very unworthy to enter the kingdom of Heaven. I shy from Oswald Chambers writings to this day.

    I believe my salvation is guaranteed, as a believer in our Lord Jesus Christ. BUT…I’m not going to do anything that might jeaordize that if I’m wrong.`

  38. foreverblessed says:

    So much has been said here! First of all, thanks childlikento, jan 9 2.57 pm for your testimony of God’s grace to you! Isn’t God leading us through His Holy Spirit, and calming us soothing us, and you were really ready to listen to Him!
    And canamer,10.49 pm, your story really touched me, as it resembles much of my own. It is true that when we truly grasp the depth of Grace, we are changed so deeply. So I do not understand the worry of Gary, who states that people except the forgiveness and then do not change their ways. The very fact that they do not change their ways is prove that they have not understood Grace. Read the testimony of canamer.
    Bob asked what would happen if the prodical son did not return. Nobody answered (that happens a lot here, there are so many things layed down here, too much to answer all, Regina often wants to answer all, I hope everything is fine with you, Regina, that you had a good night sleep, and all blesses by the new sunrays of Jesus shining in our hearts again, when we wake up in the morning and look for His face). That very fact I didn’t do when I was a legalise christian, someone like canamer was. Now, when I know Grace I love Jesus so much, even more and more. I look forward meeting Him in the morning, and during the day, the moments are more and more. I a growing in that, that in the end all my moments are in Him. And I do not worry about my salvation, it is in God’s hand, and I am in God’s hand.
    Yes so I think the ones who are so afraid of losing their salvation have yet to find the real Love of Christ, because perfect love drives out fear, that is also a scripture in the Bible.
    Bob, I was worried more about the first son, the one who stayed home. Do you see that his story is an open end?
    I believe that the ones who so desperately want to warn you not to take your grace in vain, are the oldest brothers, the one who do not enjoy living with the Father, but the ones who work for Him, because when they want to have a feast, they want to have it with their friends outside, not with their Father at home. They cannot sing praise to God, neither can they dance and and shout, and use all kind of music to cheer up their feast, they cannot have such a feast in church praising and glorifying Jesus. I was one of them, and I changed through Grace.

    Joehoffman, that is so sensible, in the end it does not matter what you believe, OSAS or not, you would not want to go against God anyway, because we are so in love with Him. Isn’t it the same in a good marriage, you do not want to hurt the other one, you always want to be with that person, He does no harm to you,no only goodness and love will come you way, and you do not want to harm Him.

  39. foreverblessed says:

    not except grace but accept grace, although the misspelling makes the point more clear, except forgiveness, everything but forgiveness, just leniency, otherwise they would know how much it did cost our Lord to be able to give it to us.
    In the last topic, a shared frustration, I was going to vent mine, then I read that Bob was praising Jesus, and so I started to praise Him too, and what happens, God gives me a song, and while I am singing it, Psalm 23 the last verse rang in my ear, “I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever”
    thank God!

  40. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart –

    Thank-you, Foreverblessed!

    You wrote:

    “When we look at the whole story of the Old and New Testaments we see in the history of the nation of Israel as well as in the Body of Christ that genuine people of faith can be as bad if not worse than those who have never experienced the new (second) birth Jesus talked about (John 3:3)”

    King David observed in the society of his day that people cried out to God for goodness (Psalm 4:6). Even 3,000 years ago, we as a (human) race cried out for mercy, not justice. People groan for goodness – but we are unwilling to bow down. We are especially unwilling to admit that not everything that happens is the will of God. Our fallen nature leads us away from God’s will, but we lay blame instead of taking responsibility. We are made in His image – we have a degree of freedom – enough to say “No!” like a toddler of two or three yrs. old. How often have I made a big mess – then just reached up for the Lord to come and clean me up?

    Jesus Christ took upon himself – for those who believe him – all the consequences for what I have done with the freedom I have. He has no sin, but bears the punishment and humiliation and pain for our rebellious acts. How great is God’s heart to bear all this that we have caused! In his grief for our misuse of his good world, he buys us back from destruction. He gives us beauty for ashes – the oil of joy for mourning…restoration of his goodness. There is no cost – it’s a gift.

    Oswald Chambers taught prayer and Scriptural devotion because he burned white hot for God. Often, what I consider my “enlightenment” looks drab and grey in the light of his love for Jesus. He consistently brings a message of reconciliation with God (Psalm 4:7, 8) Chambers calls us to lay down our toys and lift up the cross of Christ’s sacrifice – and accept it joyfully as our own. So, though the prodigal is free to stay in the far country — why would he?


  41. SFDBWV says:

    I spent yesterday wondering what had I done so bad as to stick Mart so sharply as to get upset. The blog is “Been Thinking About” with “Mart and Friends” those of us who spend too much time here are ask to give our thoughts and so opinions. Not as one may do on a bulletin board but rather as people setting at a table.

    Since Mart accused me of reading his topic question and jumping too quickly to an assumption I have taken the time to read and re read it again.

    This “new” topic is just a continuation of the last as people are still talking solely about this business of can someone lose their salvation. Yes Mart extended the thrust of subject to include what appears to read as his complete view of the matter still not making a decision but rather trying to show both sides of the argument from his view.

    His topic then segues into the question are people who claim to be Christian and believe, actually sincere?

    Paul answered that question in Galatians 5: 18-26

    From my view and understanding, this is what is dreadfully missing in today’s church. Because we are a fractured church without a common tenet we are lost to making decisions based solely upon our own understanding without the framework and structure of the Church leading us into the matter being settled from a doctrinal position universally.

    Instead we have the official views from the broad spectrum of Christian denominations and the unofficial views of the many of us who are unchurched who refuse to fall under the authority of a priest, pastor, or whatever name you would give them, in favor of staying with their own personal feelings on the matter.

    I am sorry Mart that I upset you yesterday, but you need to participate in our discussions in the same manner you expect the rest of us to. I know you are a busy man, but then so are some of the rest of us. All of us can learn from each other, and the one great thing we can learn is tolerance with those with whom we disagree.


  42. foreverblessed says:

    Well, I had posted this morning, and then the hours following, I was thinking, Mart wanted us to push beyond the OSAS question, that is: exorting one another to make the most of our calling, not getting there just by the skin of our teeth, barely making it, as Bob said, burned but safe, 1 Corinthians 3:15, 10-17
    Mart is saying is does not matter whether we believe OSAS or not, but exort one another to make the most of our time in Chirst, and that discussion is not really going, so sorry Steve, we still do not go where he is leading us.
    Be fruitful and multilpy Genesis 1:28
    If we are full of the fruit of the Holy Spirit, then we as a christian community will draw many people to us, Who hates to be around a person full of joy and grace? Do we ask for that joy, ask and have faith you will receive it, and you will be joyfull. That joy should attract many unbelieving people to Jesus, not only joy, but patience, Galatians 5: 22-23
    Lets encourage one another to go this way, being full of Christ.

  43. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends!

    I believe your bird on the snowy branch is a sparrow hawk, Mart. If we put out a bird-feeder, we must expect the raptors to take advantage of little birds’ attraction and gathering…The already published “list” catches my attention once more:

    1. Disappointment With God;
    2. Distraction;
    3. Dangerous Relationships;
    4. Unchanged Tendencies;
    5. Self Reliance;
    6. Prayerlessness;
    7. Carelessness;
    8. An Unexamined Heart;
    9. An Unseen Enemy;
    10. A Lack of Accountability

    This morning, as I prepare my heart to go forth — treading a path that is full of habitual behaviors and automatic response patterns, Number Nine seems to be highlighted in the list! The little dickens! That old fallen angel is lurking undetected. He hates my soul — and would gobble me up in an instant.

    To Whom can I run for protection? (Luke 13:34, 35) To the One who loves me and saves me.

    In Him,

  44. tracey5tgbtg says:

    So many good comments, and there is never enough time to put into words all the thoughts that come into my head from reading everyone’s input.

    I am most convicted by those who speak the Truth in LOVE. Your joy reflects His light showing me how easily I get irritated by things people say.

    Let us keep our eyes focused on Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith. Jesus alone is worthy. Worthy is the Lamb of God who was slain for the sins of the world. Rev 5:4,6,12,13. 1 John 2:2

  45. foreverblessed says:

    Maru, thank you, what verse would you want to quote?
    This verse is talking about our present condition as a Church, it will be different when we say: blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord,
    When we exalt Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, instead of arguing over dogma’s.
    My list would be number 6 and 6, prayerlessness, and carelessness. We should take all the care to seek communion, close contact with Jesus, seek His face, dwell in His presence, and have all world’s anxieties and distractions far outside.
    There is a devotional of today January 10, of God at eventide, by two listeners, who says: “Hush your spirit still more in My Presence. Self dies, not by human combat, not necessarily by supplicatory prayer, but by the consciousness of My Presence, and of My Spirit-values. Thus self shrivels into lifelessness, into nothingness.”
    My Spirit values, meaning the fruit of the Spirit, I think.
    SO with prayer I mean the prayer that seeks contact with Jesus, and letting Him talk to me, and I listen.

  46. foreverblessed says:

    Amen Tracey, thanks, we all together praising Him! But did you see that all creatures, in heaven, on earth and under earth, and in the sea, will praise Him? Wow

  47. yooperjack says:

    The question was: “What would have happened if the prodigal son didn’t return home”? Well, I’ve been there and done that too and here is my answer. It didn’t matter what he done he would still be a son of the Father. If he lived in the pig pen (the world of sin) he would die in the pig pen. He would not suffer the wrath of the Father but the wrath of this world; that is beatings, jail, etc and be the most miserable person on earth.

    My question to you is: “How would you act if he came home” Would you be like the Father or like the elder son? When a brother or sister returns to your church do you welcome him or her with respect or do you give them a look like: “What are you doing here?” And maybe the first time you’ll forgive them but what about the second or third time? Some people just do not surrender very easy, we have to have patience and not spend our worldly wrath on them.

    Or maybe your son or daughter fell short of your expectations will you be like the prodigal sons Father or the elder son?

  48. SFDBWV says:

    Foreverblessed, during one of the last race riots in Los Angles the person whom all the rioting had sprung from was Rodney King; he is credited with a very famous quote “Can’t we all just get along?”

    To “evolve” from a brand new born again believer into a fully formed new creature in Christ is not an instantly occurring event. It takes a lifetime and at the end of each lifetime none are on an equal level of being Christ like, none.

    Some other religions teach submission and tolerance and self denial as well as Christianity. Their followers will not even eat any meat or even cheese and so are in their minds not guilty of harming any living creature. They will give you any thing you ask of them and will never strike back even if attacked. They remove all possessions from themselves and even drop their names so as to have no connection to the trappings of this world.

    Their life style is very much like some Christians believe we should all adopt, lacking only the belief that Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God and in fact is God.

    That one thing divides all people and causes each follower of Jesus to make a stand for Christ. In order to do so, our hearts and minds must be completely convinced that we are correct in that belief. We are told that the Holy Spirit bears witness of Himself and enables us to be convicted and convinced of that belief.

    Nothing is as personal as the inner workings of our minds, only God can see in there, but it is capable of being influenced by a great many other matters.

    Our faith is a very personal matter and so becomes a very passionate emotion in most of us. I would consider an impassionate Christian to be guilty of being lukewarm, neither hot nor cold. Christ Himself warns us of such an attitude and warns the *church* of such an attitude.

    Rodney King ask the question, “can’t we all just get along”, I am sorry the Christian answer is *no* even though we can try and settle on our common ground of being Christian we are divided in the questions we raise and so can not encourage another with whom we disagree with. How can I encourage a believer that disagrees with me at the most basic of my faith? My salvation in question by technicalities they embrace!

    No in fact it is my responsibility to make my stand, make my case, and not back down. To do otherwise I am a phony and have no faith at all, only an open intellectual attitude able to be bent by the winds of others opinions.


  49. yooperjack says:

    One other comment while I’m on the subject. I felt more love and fellowship in some bars or pubs than I felt in some churches. I don’t go to bars anymore; for over 40 years I’ve been sober.

    If you want to see some dead churches come alive wait till the last “amen” and many will race for the exit door like the place is on fire. That my friend is so they can get a window seat at their favorite eating place. LOL

  50. foreverblessed says:

    Steve, nothing is more important then our stand for Christ, that is true, but we make in our dogma’s much more of that then is needed. Like you want to press on Mart to say he believes in OSAS, which in my understanding of the basics of christianity is one step pushed too far. See, we adhere too much to our dogma’s of Christ, then living on that Rock. So if christians let go of all their dogma’s that are not essential, but have this one: believe that Jesus is the Son of God, come in the flesh, by who’s blood we are saved from sin, and by who’s resurrection life we live as new in Him.
    And none of these thing as OSAS, or any other doctrine that is not essential, let it go.
    And if we do that, you know you can praise Him together as Lord of Lords and King of kings and of our heart too.
    What would you think? It is possible to become one.

  51. oneg2dblu says:

    Mart and Friends… that very opening statement, BEYOND OSAS, isn’t it really only wishful thinking, as in Once beyond, Always beyond? But, I know your heart in this matter Mart, it is for us all!
    That is almost akin to my always thinking, what happens once we get beyond “SOUND DOCTRINE,” then where are we?
    I say sound, because if you mention this topic anywhere, anytime, or in any church today, people will sound off and the discussion is never settled!
    It is instead many times shunned, as in let’s move on, to just to keep the flow going and sadly in any direction as it may. Whether that is really directed by God, or the deceptive Wiles of Satan, who can ever say?
    I always wonder why… don’t you?
    Like the question Bob asked that of course went unresolved, as without answer. For we cannot all agree on this answer either, as we are but human and the answers we now battle with are also humanly derived.
    The only real answer is for God to find a way for us to each accept what system of belief we will follow. I believe that was a statement found in the writings of this site at one time, but it has been since removed!
    Instead, lays now the fencepost of our own understanding which then remains ever open and can be clouded by false teaching, or wrongly motivated and waterdown doctrine that is fully filling the churches of today.
    I think we have all now come to the “Beyond,” that God has shown is right for us individually, but that is not enough for common sinful man who wants always more for himself. He, would prefer the modern day false teachings of man that now says, you are saved and you can still have more sin for yourself, do not be held victim to the extremes of perfection which can not be achieved anyhow. Have your sin and sin some more if you desire to, because God really knows your heart is for Him, so you are safe?
    That particular doctrine is, OSAS as taught today. It is a conflict to the God-given doctrine that lives within me. A life that lives righteously as much as you can, and do it for your God and yourself, which is only possible through the Help, Leading , and Purposes of the God-given Holy Spirit that dwells within those who Believe and Obey! Not a choose to Believe, and then walk on in you own way? WOW!
    For that doctrine is an open one… just like the answer that remains open to… “What if the lost son did not turn from his ways?” OSAS has only one position to take, and only one answer, it is their only fall safe if you will. They must now say he was never a son either!
    To me, sonship and salvation, in this story are one in the same, and that answer does not answer properly as this doctrine’s side of this issue.
    I bleive the more correct doctrine says, one can fall away, and one can be restored, but he must also turn from his wasting ways and repent, or he remains separated and alone, hungry, and lost!
    Yes, as foreverblessed has commented, the remaining son was unhappy, even jealous and hateful perhaps. But he also, if he really now repents, can be fully restored to real joy and for the right reasons, and not being able to remain in his sin filled position without the consequence of losing his inheritance, like some are taught today. For he clearly has never fallen away from his father like his returning brother had. The remaining son always possessed his father’s bloodline, and he remained faithfully serving him all the days of his life, but his lack of repentance cost him dearly.
    I ask this to you foreverblessed, “What exactly constitutes this good marriage? One that Obeys God’s Commands as written, or one that creates for itself another warm and fuzzy place to repose, like guidelines do not matter, “NO MATTER WHAT!” as Charles Stanley, a very popular OSAS teacher, who says this very thing about sinful living and God’s Salvation!
    I see this no matter what marriage as an easy sell,as easy as the OSAS message sells in continuing in your sin. But, there is a great difference, if you choose to see it!
    I have chosen to remain with my father and serve him all the days of my life, but to live a no matter what existence? That does not ring as God-given to me!
    This marriage to Christ which all believer’s had better recognize as their ongoing salvation, was initially born when we “were” sinners, but it can not remain sin filled if Christ is the groom, for he will groom out all our old ways, and we only stay His bride as long as we stay within the Commands of His Father’s Covenant.
    To me, if I were to do otherwise, I would surely break the Covenant of that Marriage.
    Please don’t divorce yourself from the passivity of falling away, because God hates divorce, unless of course in your thinking you are beyond even His needed obedience. Which I know you are not, I only bringing out a shunned point here.
    Isn’t God great that He still lets some choose His Obedience over a, no matter what doctrine? Gary

  52. yooperjack says:

    No ones posting so I may as well throw in a funny story. I went to an AG chuch for the first time and when the invitaition to come forward was given the whole church went forward, my wife and I were in shock.

    Then we went to a little Baptist church for the first time in years, while on vacation. The main entrance was at the back of the church that’s where we came in; after the last “amen” the whole flock rushed the the alter I was shocked to say the least, wow and the sermon wasn’t that good. Come to find out the new parking lot was in the back of the church so everyone exited the back door behined the pulpit. It’s a funny and strange world out there if you have a sense of humor. LOL LOL LOL

  53. yooperjack says:

    The main entrance was at the front of the church. Whooops!!!

  54. oneg2dblu says:

    To All…I hope my last post is not the longest on record. Please excuse that lengthy dwelling place.

    Maru… you have saved many of us with those awesome points today. Me for one. Thank you for sharing them.
    Each one is a gift to open.

  55. yooperjack says:

    Gary: Look at my post at 9:42AM and 10:16AM I answered Bob’s question.

  56. poohpity says:

    Wisdom is found by presenting the facts and letting people think for themselves other wise we would be forcing people to think as we do and not using the brains God has given each. When there is a matter that already causes divisions why continue the confusion and disunity when there are so many other matters that can be agreed upon to bring those who believe together. We have seen the harm that is caused when one wants only their way to be considered no matter what the topic is. So if we go beyond salvation and consider the many other areas that show what we believe by what comes out of our mouths, hearts and how we treat others I think people in general will be more open to listening.

    People try and control the conversations and the way people think, where then is the trust in our God and Him directing people to an understanding of the things that are about Him alone and His Kingdom. When we get involved as His followers we tend to cause all sorts of problems. Trust God to be the Leader, Teacher and Guide then the rest of us will learn what our place is and it sure isn’t being a god and knowing all things because we do not.

    It really tickles me when people who do not even know God’s Word go on to try and teach what is written in it. That is like a person who goes to college with a math major then goes in to teach psychology. They do not have a clue going from left brain thinking to right brain activities. It is OK to not have all the answers and that takes wisdom to admit but only a fool who does not have all the answers says they do.

  57. poohpity says:

    Day 10–Job 24-28

  58. yooperjack says:

    Poohpity: You mean like our Government servents. Those 1%ers have no idea how the common people live.

  59. oneg2dblu says:

    Yooperjack… you posted, been there done that, saying you fell away, repented and returned, just like the lost son. Which is of course in right standing to that story line, as I interpret it as well.
    There are those here, the OSAS, who would have to say you never fell away because you were never saved in the first place or, if you were saved you could not fallen way.
    That is the OSAS position that is preached today.
    No other possiblity exists for them, not even this story line as written, allows for such thoughts to threaten their doctrinal position. What you lived an experienced, does not matter to them. What must be lived and experienced through their beliefs is their point of OSAS, where you were really just trapped in a world of works and pride.
    How dare you threaten their doctrine with your story!
    I say, “Welcome back Brother!”
    If I was at the bar, I’d probably pour you a tall cool one, and you would feel really loved after a few of those, wouldn’t you? But, “Looking for love in all the wrong places, also gets you the wrong kind of love!”
    I know for a fact, It is after you repented of your old ways, that you knew you were forgiven for living wrongly. Gary

  60. poohpity says:

    You are so wrong Gary in saying those of us who believe in OSAS have never said that one can not walk away, what we are saying is that God does not walk away from us. We can give up on God but God is there to welcome us back because of who He is not because of our behavior. His love is not dependent on our behavior. He loved us before we ever knew Him, so does that mean He loves us more after we accept Him, no, it is still the same love. People tend to base God’s love on their own interpretation which is that we have to earn the love of another. God’s love can not be earned our understanding of it can grow so that we understand it is beyond human comprehension and reasoning.

  61. poohpity says:

    For those of us who’s desire is for Jesus not the understanding of any man that will come out of our hearts and there is nothing confusing about this.

    In the morning, when I rise
    In the morning, when I rise
    In the morning, when I rise

    Give me Jesus.
    Give me Jesus,
    Give me Jesus.
    You can have all this world,
    Just give me Jesus.

    When I am alone,
    When I am alone,
    When I am alone,
    Give me Jesus.

    Give me Jesus.
    Give me Jesus,
    Give me Jesus.
    You can have all this world,
    Just give me Jesus.

    When I come to die,
    When I come to die,
    When I come to die,
    Give me Jesus.

    Give me Jesus.
    Give me Jesus,
    Give me Jesus.
    You can have all this world,
    Just give me Jesus.

    Give me Jesus.
    Give me Jesus,
    Give me Jesus.
    You can have all this world,
    You can have all this world,
    You can have all this world,
    Just give me Jesus.

  62. bratimus says:

    Bob asked how about the prodigal nver came home, well that would mean forgiveness was never asked and salvation never recieved, in the parable sense.

    Since we have asked a what if, how about this one.

    What if the prodigal son came home stayed for awhile and left again, thinking he could do it better the second time on hiis own with a little more inhertance in his money belt?

  63. yooperjack says:

    We are starting to get there. Once “Born again” we become the “Sons and Daughters” of the “Father through Jesus Christ”; once a Son of God always a Son can’t undo that. We can’t be born again and again and again till we die. If we have brain damage or get rebellious and turn our backs on our Father we would have a hard time fellowshipping with Him just like our earthly father. My earthly father may disown (shun) me but I’m still his son.

    I didn’t give a hoot what those self-righteous self appointed begets from my church had to say, I was saved at 17 years of age and baptized. They even dropped my membership to the church when my friend told them what he found when I opened that door with a hangover. That hurt. Yet that changed his life forever. I fell away because of a girl from that church dumping me so I blamed God and took it out on anyone that got in my way.

    But Praise God I had enough foundation to know who to turn to when the going got beyond my control. It wasn’t the church. Trust me. I’m back now but will never say never again. Some of you will understand the last sentence some I hope will never need to.

  64. bratimus says:

    the “OSAS” lol sound like a government agency like the “NLRB” or “EPA” or “IRS”

    I think the Lord has been to gone to long from the 99 and your starting to form your own groups.

    In Matthew 12:32 there is a warning about a unforgiveable sin. Speaking against the Holy Spirit.

    In Acts 5:1-11 show what can happen when you lie to the Holy Spirit.

    So i’ll say that there is a 99% chance that the “OSAS” is right.

    And there is a 1% cahnce there is a way to lose your salavation.

    The “OCW” says they are 99% going against the 1% that isn’t accruate either.

  65. yooperjack says:

    bratimus: You left out Matthew 7:21-23 that one is really scary and would be a shocker.

    Buuut LOOORD IIIII. That is your problem He might say it was all about you and not about me.

    Just a thought.

  66. Bob in Cornwall England says:


    I had no real “christian” upbringing and was in Shock and Awe when I was told about Jesus at the age of 15. Those teenage years with Jesus were the best as I had very little baggage and my sexuality was under control, so to speak.
    I attended house fellowships and was involved with Jean Darnell when she had a ministry in the UK in the late 60’s and early 70’s.
    I guess my flesh got the better of me and I went my own way in my 20’s.
    Looking back on those years and my wanderings without Jesus, it is clear to see He was near at hand all the time and prevented real disaster from hitting me.
    Since I have been “back in the fold” I have wandered off a few times mainly because of frustration with church stuff. But if I look at myself honestly, problems were due to me carrying so much baggage that I had acquired over the years.
    It was simple as a teenager and it is slowly becoming simple again as I drop off the excess baggage one parcel at a time and look more and more to Him.
    He is the Good Shepherd and He said His sheep would know His voice and follow Him.
    In reality Jesus never ever left me and never will.
    We are sealed with the Holy Spirit, signed, sealed and delivered. As in Ephesians 1:2:
    Nothing can separate us from the love of God, except our own stupidity.


  67. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Sorry Ephesians 1:,2:
    I need to practice the scripture text thing!

  68. bratimus says:


    I was trying to point out that Christian are filled with the Holy Spirit and many Christains speak against each other for things they mifght not understand because the message wasn’t aimed at them and aimed at some else or meanrt for some one else. Thing the church doesn’t have short supply of is busy bodies and know it alls.

    Just a thought

  69. poohpity says:

    Eph 3:14-21; 14 When I think of all this, I fall to my knees and pray to the Father, 15 the Creator of everything in heaven and on earth. 16 I pray that from his glorious, unlimited resources he will empower you with inner strength through his Spirit. 17 Then Christ will make his home in your hearts as you trust in him. Your roots will grow down into God’s love and keep you strong. 18 And may you have the power to understand, as all God’s people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is. 19 May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.

    20 Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think. 21 Glory to him in the church and in Christ Jesus through all generations forever and ever! Amen.

    If that don’t just say that it is all about Jesus and His work in our lives nothing, nothing we do. It is all about allowing the Lord to work in our lives so not even one of us can take any credit at all for any of it. When we think it is because of good behavior beware that is pride sneaking it’s way into your heart and then will come a very big fall right on your face or should I say ego. :-)

  70. yooperjack says:

    Ok! bratimus, I thought you were looking for thorns, you know the verses we and preachers don’t like to get into much. The thorns are there I can give you a basket full but I won’t. We’er off topic again I’m not good at this blogging. But it’s been fun and interesting.

    Take care!!!

  71. bratimus says:


    I take no offence, i was just trying to stariaghten out my thought. i enjoy ur post, im a man of few words so when i have a thought or opinion i try to keep it short.

  72. oneg2dblu says:

    I agree with pooh, God loves us all and will never stop loving us,” No matter what!” That it not part of this ongoing dialogue for me. Never was never will be. His Love is not being challenged here, only this modern day teaching, its doctrine, and its beliefs. These are all new to the Christian experience, and are ruining what a Christians should look like today, and how we should live according to the Power and Word of God, not helplessly remaining justified to continue to sin. That to me is a lie from the pit. God does however, love even those who are so easily misled, but He will send many to Hell forever for their disobedience and unbelief. OSAS can be riff with uncontrolled sin and that is why I, and perhaps even God, would have a problem with this doctrine.. Unless, of course you believe that even the biblical Hell teaching is also no longer chic and incorrect for your modern doctrinal beliefs. Now, I think I’ll go out in the yard and find a good switch for the good beating I surely deserve. But, the reality is this… God can do anything He pleases, whether it pleases us or not is really irrelevant, even our most irreverent doctrine if you please, will not change the reality of Hell, because of the “No matter what,” clause it teaches. I’ll do the best I can as long as I can and continue to try to live according to His Guidelines, and it is work, but I will not also cling to this so easily sold false teaching that pervades and perverts the church today. Someone lowered the standards somewhere, it wasn’t God, and I don’t believe they needed to be lower. I believe we need to live a life that God would be pleased with, even Beyond our Salvation! Once Saved, Always Serving works for me, but that even work, is seen as a threat to some others.
    I will always wonder why there can’t be room for both! :)

  73. yooperjack says:

    Gary: You got it “Once Saved, Always Serving works for me. End it there, no need to say any more. Well said brother. Praise God, Thankyou Jesus.

  74. poohpity says:

    Gary you said, “not helplessly remaining justified to continue to sin” that is not at all what any of us have said. That is what you have read into our statements about still falling into sin even though we are believers. We will never, never be totally without sinning while we remain in this body but we are however covered by the Blood of the Lamb so God does not see it. It does not give us freedom to sin or justify sin. Is it possible you have misread what has been said, continually to push your point?

  75. yooperjack says:

    Let it go!!!!

  76. poohpity says:

    Gary, if you let God have your heart then it is the Holy Spirit who will do the work of transforming you as you remain close and learn to know Him more.

    Day 11—Job 29-31

  77. Regina says:

    Good Evening All,
    Wow! I was blessed by SO many of the comments on this blog topic! Thank you foreverblessed, Maru, Tracey, Steve, Bob and so many others! And thank you poohpity for the song! I heard that song on the radio recently (Give Me Jesus) and I so love it! Everytime I really want to get into the discussion, my bedtime rolls around (shaking my head..)! Oh how I wish there were more hours in the day! Thank you, foreverblessed, for the well wishes of good, godly rest!

    Love to all…

  78. paifamily says:

    My comment is to be considered as a guideline to help believer to stay firm in faith in Christ Jesus to ensure that Christ will not deny him incognito to Him when He faces Him on that day.

    Well, the sermon on the mount has an effect to help a believer to become godliness or christlikeness when he starts to cultivate the beatitudes Christ underlines.This guarantees one’s name in the book of life.

    Please check into my video on Make it to the Rapture and If Left Behind don’t wear 666. Click paifamily at youtube to view it. I believe this sermon on the mount is Jesus’ saying which anyone follows will be a wiseman who builds his house upon the rock and that will ensure his rapture whether he is the supporter of osas or not.

    In fact, Rev 22:14 talks about keeping His commandments (KJV) which if His is Jesus, then those commandments simply put are love one another and Go spread Gospel to all corners of the earth. Both are related to attracting people to Christ as Jesus claims. So be doers for His commandments.

    God bless.

  79. royalpalm says:

    Greetings, Mart and BTA friends,

    It is good to read the various posts and the love and kindness and encouragement towards each other. And also the opposite ideas/opinions. As Jude 3 advised, “Contend for the faith…” and it is understandly hard for most to be silent.

    Nevertheless, we know that eloquence, knowledge, and faith count for nothing unless one’s heart is filled with love. (1 cor 13), so I trust that the motivating factor in the discussions is love.

    Regarding this topic, there are great spiritual insights already presented. God’s word is full of assurance that
    Jesus Himself chose us and appointed us (John 15:16) (to go and bear fruit for Him); Nobody can snatch His sheep
    from His hand because they hear His voice, know Him, and follow Him and God has given them eternal life (by virtue of their faith in the Lord and what He had done. John 10:27-29. Those whom God had chosen, He also planned to be conformed to be like His Son (Rom. 8:29, 30) They were justified, sanctified, and will be glorified when Jesus returns. When a person becomes a believer, He is indwelt by the Holy spirit (John 7:39, 14:26) which is the seal of God (Eph 1:13,14) and with whom we are born into the kingdom of God (John 3:5). There is general consensus in these truths.

    The topic of disagreement is what happens if a believer sins – does he lose His salvation? Only God can answer
    this question because He alone can understand and know the human heart. We are advised not to trust our own
    judgments for the inclination of our hearts is wickedness; even our best intentions towards others are
    shaded with our self promotion. That is why I am wondering why some people are so obsessed with this topic. God wants us to watch for each other – not to find fault but to encourage and help.

    We are, however, advised to examine ourselves (2 Cor 13:5, Gal. 6:4; Lam 3:40; )in the light of God’s word. When we do, and are honest with ourselves, we will discover that we have enough worries of our own…

    God’s word is full of warnings against sin and the spurning of God’s grace. God hates sin and gave the most awful punishment for sin – spiritual death, physical death and eternal death in the Lake of Fire. We re saved from all these through our faith in the Lord Jesus, and God gave us the Holy Spirit who convicts us of and gives us power over sin.Sin is either due to lack of knowledge or a deliberate choice.

    For those who choose an ungodly lifestyle, the wages of sin is death.(spiritual/physical/eternal) However, there
    is deliverance when we acknowledge our sin and thank God for His atoning sacrifice in Jesus. Can one lose his
    salvation? There is no clear answer but Paul warned the believers in his time of how the Israelites who were saved from slavery in Egypt and from the pursuit of Pharaoh ,and who also received God’s grace ended up dead in the desert because of their sins. (1 Cor. 1:10-11)

    In John 15:6-8 Jesus likenened His disciples to branches that must bear fruit for His glory. Note that those who do not abide in Him were cast out as a branch, withered and later burned in the fire. Could this mean that a disciple can lose His salvation and end up in the fire? I do not know – and I do not want to waste my time pondering and speculating. I’d rather spend my time making sure that I am abiding in Him and His words remain with me as I do what I was chosen – to bear good fruit for His honor and glory…

  80. royalpalm says:

    Oops… the verses of warning from Paul is in 1 Cor. 10: 1-10, 11. Sorry…

  81. remarutho says:

    Hello Mart & Friends!

    Foreverblessed, you wrote:

    “This verse (Luke 13:34) is talking about our present condition as a Church, it will be different when we say: blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord…” (Luke 13:35)

    It seems to me he has come for some – and for some he cannot come fully into everything: body, mind, soul, spirit. We can prevent him, by the measure of freedom we do possess. I must ask myself, “What do I withhold from him? What do I keep for myself?”
    Why would I not give him my full confidence and trust? I can only answer for myself. He has all of me – though I do not think he got anything great. Only Jesus Christ makes greatness by his presence, his power, his love.

    It requires some imaginative re-membering to see those in Jerusalem and the surrounding area who heard Jesus speak in the flesh – who saw his miracles and signs and wonders – and yet could not or would not believe in him! Only those who held some power – or who were experts in the Law – opposed and hated Jesus.

    No one remains, since the death of the apostle John, who can declare “what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life.” (1 John 1:1) The twelve disciples, and many others, experienced Jesus in the reality of his flesh and blood. (1 John 1:3)

    As Pooh has pointed out, no one can be 100% free from sin in this life. We will be perfect in the resurrection. We will rise and be like Jesus in his glorious body. We are called to major on his perfection – his sinlessness – his glorious promise to be with us forever. Only Jesus lived in this flesh without a sin nature to contend with. My salvation comes from this: “Those who love me will keep my word, and my Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.” (John 13:23) He cannot do it if I hold onto my uncertainty. I must say “yes, I do,” like a bride whose husband “gave himself up for me.” (Ephesians 5:26) Only the Word of God can keep me in his Presence.


  82. remarutho says:

    John 14:23 tells of Jesus dwelling with us. Maru

  83. remarutho says:

    I am living proof that only Jesus is perfect! :-) Maru

  84. SFDBWV says:

    Moving on I am looking at the list Mart provided “Ten Reasons Real Christians Look Like They Are Not.” The not being representative of not being real Christians but something else.

    Having already stated that it is the fruit of the Spirit that shows whether or not the person is producing the urgings of the Spirit in them. I am if this list represents an inner attitude or an outward appearance.

    #1 Disappointment with God.
    I believe that many believers harbor this feeling whether they admit it or not. Possibly only a very mature Christian can accept disappointment and actually really turn it into praise, not just pretend to.

    How many of us have prayed for the healing of another we love only to watch that loved one suffer further or worse? How many have had children die or have the horror of losing entire families in some tragic event, some term an act of God?

    Yes I think most *real* believers are at some point in their relationship disappointed with God.

    #2 Distractions
    I admit I am somewhat confused about this one. Distracted from what? If a person is a born again believer, the work of the Holy Spirit is germinating in them all the time, and though a person may be *distracted* with the events of living, their new spirit will show even in the distractions of life.

    #3 Dangerous Relationships
    Jesus kept company with sinners, are we not to? I will say that the most obvious dangerous relationships I have been exposed to are those who are confessing Christians but find themselves romantically drawn to another persons mate. This danger almost always ends up bad and embarrassing their witness for Christ.

    Will stop there for now and see if we can discuss something other than the former topic.


  85. SFDBWV says:

    OK….#4 Unchanged Tendencies;
    So then if we are presented with a person who claims to be a Christian and we knew them before their claim of Christ, we would expect some departure from, let’s say bad habits.

    What then of our own bad habits, did we steal from our jobs, lie to others for gain, lust in our hearts or continue in adultery?

    Did we drink alcohol for the pleasure of it, occasionally do drugs, or use vulgar language?

    Has all of that come to an end?

    Are we demonstrating a new nature? If not does that mean we have not really accepted Jesus as Lord and more importantly does it mean that Jesus has rejected our attempted conversion?

    What verse of scripture can substantiate that anyone who asks for salvation is denied it? I do not know of any!

    If it is our unchanged tendencies are we aware they have not changed? Have we asked for sin to be removed from our lives? Because sin will remain and we will still have to deal with it. Have we asked for deliverance from alcohol or drug dependency only to continue to fight the impulse to experience them again?

    The struggle will remain, it is only after life in this world is over that the battle in our selves is over.

    So are unchanged tendencies an indication one is not saved? I think not.


  86. oneg2dblu says:

    Yes, let’s move on and discuss something “other than” the former. I wonder if God’s Grace, the Holy Spirit’s Possession, and the Forgiveness that each Believer has been shown, and should have in their heart, will that also be present as we move on? Just a thought…

  87. Bob in Cornwall England says:


    I thought I was ok with this subject of OSAS, but now I am confused as, just like an election campaign, I seem to agree with the last person to speak.
    I now know that I am saved, utterly and totally by the Blood of Jesus and that if I love Him I should keep His commands.
    I am also aware that I will fail because I live in a sinful body in a fallen world.
    Therefore I need to constantly come to God for forgivness and know that sin and death no longer have any dominion or power over me.
    The confusion comes when I try to be good and not to sin in my own strength as I seem to always utterly fail. Only when I let go and let the Holy Spirit live through me does it all seem to come together.

    You have confused me also as you seem to think anyone who believes they are saved for ever is out partying every night with no care for sin at all.
    I can assure you this is not the case.
    But my vision of the way you live your life is more of a rigid Pharasee type exsitance, being in bondage to “being good” and doing works.
    As Pilot said “what is truth?”


  88. yooperjack says:

    Steve and bloggers: I hate that term “Act of God” God is not angry with us, the Gospel is good news we are in the time of grace. Why don’t they blame the Devil or demon possessed humans they are the ones going around seeking whom they can kill, desceive and destroy. We humans are our own worst enemy with our life styles and attitudes we also cause many problems in our livies. Change the attitude you’ll change the behavior.

    Weather is very natural, if we live in its path beware. It’s not an act of God. And some things just happen.

    Some preachers teach if you don’t pay God you will pay the doctor; again “Hog Wash” who do they think God is “The god father”? Pay me or I will—–. When this is preached I have to think; what cemetery, I mean, seminary did you come from?

    Here is some scripture I found interesting: (John 16: 7-9) take note of the singular “sin”.

  89. yooperjack says:

    Mart: I’m thinking the only way this foolish argument is going to end is if after you start a new topic you delete anyone that brings the OSAS topic up. This is beyond boring. Maybe Jesus will come first.LOL

    Just a thought.

  90. SFDBWV says:

    Bob, I hope this tid bit helps you and any other who may struggle with failing to live up to your own expectations in your heart.

    As long ago as at least 40 years Billy Graham answered a question for me and it stuck.

    When asked how a person knows if they have committed the unforgivable sin, Dr. Graham answered “as long as you worry about it you have not done it because it is the Holy Spirit that causes you to experience the conflict within you, therefore the Holy Spirit is still with you.”

    So it is with this whole business of trying to live as you know you should yet falling short of your own expectations, it is because the Holy Spirit that still dwells within you that you experience the struggle.

    Dr. Graham went on to also say that “the time to worry is when there is no longer a struggle and you become comfortable with yourself”.

    Jackie, I too am offended by the secular world using God or Christ in their vocabulary. Especially when it comes from Hollywood. I also am wary of believe it and receive it and prosperity preaching. I liked your cemetery/seminary joke. Dr. Graham once stated if he had believed everything he was taught in seminary school he would never had been an evangelist.


  91. yooperjack says:

    Amen brother Steve, or “Name it and claim it” or “Receive your miracle today”. Every time I needed a miracle it was preceded by a crisis; I’ll seek blessings instead. “Thank you”

  92. oneg2dblu says:

    Do we move on, (I use the human terms given here) because many will move on still carrying their old baggage. That is they will not move on in a fully confessed and repented state, because they choose to live in a state of I’m already good to go, why bother feeling anything about my sin, according to my doctrine, I’m already forgiven!
    I don’t question their faith; I question their doctrinally derived allowance given to sin, not taken perhaps by those saints here, but how it is preached by some that are given to disobedience to the Word of God!
    So, I’m a different good to go, like in let’s all move on together in the “real spirit” of our Lord, not separated out by our human lack, or pride, our unforgiveness, our labels, our chosen doctrine. Seems to me, some False Teaching has crept in that continually says, we are okay just the way we are, you can’t really change anything yourself, that would be pride filled works, and you don’t have to, your good to go!
    That is so sad a teaching for a Christian, to be able to harbor in their heart any evil thing they desire and act upon it, along with their assured already forgiven faith in salvation, “No matter what”
    It is the ultimate dichotomy of the humanities in their continued justifiable downfall. Just to even think a man’s life and its values, play no value in their pleasing of an Almighty God, takes most of the bible and turns it into suggestions, if you will.
    What they leave out in that doctrine, and choose to move on away from, that is the stuff that really scares me to death for them and others, who will also believe them. That doctrine says you can have, one without the other, salvation with absolutely no obedience, no Fear of the Lord, no sin too great, and YOU get to happily choose your sin for your self? WOW! That is the very death that the Word of God, the HE has not left out, as it warns of false teaching coming into the house.
    Please let the Honesty of Christ in you, bring about righteous changes that this false doctrine can also say, in its extremes, are not ever really needed, or necessary! I prefere the Docrtine of the possiblity of changing even the most retched sinner like me, rather than this one that says, no need! That is my gripe in the most simple form I can deliver it. Be Blessed!
    I am done here with this never resolved issue, I am stamping the dust off my feet, and will try to find another dwelling place for its resolve elsewhere.
    Maybe the next topic could be, “What currently is your favorite sin, and when are you going to allow the Holy Spirit to really do what it should, Convict you,
    and change you, No matter what you believe!

  93. foreverblessed says:

    Dear Gary, I pray that you will be blessed in you going in and in your going out. May God’s mercies fill you, may your cup be overflowing with love, mercy, goodness and grace.

  94. foreverblessed says:

    Let’s move on, as there is some work to be done yet, in ourselves, in helping others who God put’s in our way, or to whom He sends us.
    About ourselves:
    The list that Mart presented, no 4 unchanged tendencies, this one is tricky, say you have a sinful tendency, some weakness that keeps coming back, for years and years and years. And that is more powerful then you are, what about that. Is the conclusion: you are not a real christian, you are not saved at all?
    Or is there another possibility: you are in some area’s still bound by an evil power, even though you are a christian. This is possible, I went to a forum of a christian man who had been harassed by depression and fobia, and was delivered after 19 years! We need more spiritual discernment to ask God to help us, and each other. There is so much work to do, and the best work is done when we are at rest in Jesus, quiet, as a weened child with his mother. That’s why I liked Pooh’s song so much. At the time I was a legalised christian, I did not like those Jesus’s songs, I thought, what an easy thought, just Jesus and all is well with you, what an easy way out. Just give your heart to Jesus, and all is well. To come to realisation that I myself had not given my heart to Jesus in the first place. That is the beginning point, the starting point, no other Gate through which we can enter that Rest: the finished work of Jesus Christ
    in us! The house we build on the Rock, doing what He through the Holy Spirit guides us to.
    May God open our eyes to see His way for us, may He enlighten our hearts!

  95. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Amen foreverblessed.

    You said:

    Maybe the next topic could be, “What currently is your favorite sin, and when are you going to allow the Holy Spirit to really do what it should, Convict you,
    and change you, No matter what you believe!”

    Most of us here are at that point and beyond, you are the one stuck in a trap set by satan!

    The Holy Spirit is a person and not an “it” and He is my friend.


  96. yooperjack says:

    foreverblessed: It goes back to the reality that our spirit is saved and perfect in Gods eyes through Jesus. Our flesh needs to be crucified daily and our minds renewed. It may take years to get rid of some bad habits. Praise God He didn’t leave it up to us He sent us a helper. We will win read the end of the Book.

  97. oneg2dblu says:

    Bob in corwall… I see such a hope in your words,you have blessed me with your thoughhts about salvation. That is the pure biblcal descpition, saying salvation is a future hope! That is my God-given reason for continued life in this sometimes ugly, and ever darkening world, that we all must endure. Which is also a biblical. The work of Christ, that needed to be done by Him is done, It is finished! The work of living out our salvation, is our life’s work in Christ. There may well be moments of repose, private counsel and prayer, feasting and fasting, but there is also service to which we are called, gifts we are given to use for Him as well. That is as biblcal as hope springs Eternal, even our Faith! Gary

  98. poohpity says:

    I have never really understood how someone can talk about the Word of God with such conviction who has by their own admission never read it. To not say, “From what I have read I understand things to be this way or that or but I am not sure this is only my understanding.” Wouldn’t that be saying that whatever they say is truth? It is our job to compare what others say to scripture but sometimes when others are confronted in wrong teaching they react with a defensive posture and at that point it is everyone else who is in the wrong. I wonder if it would not be better to pray for that person rather than try direct communication and step back and allow God to do what He alone can do which is to lead others to an understanding of scripture if they are open to His direction.

  99. SFDBWV says:

    Pooh you are 100% right in saying that the continued arguing of a point only entrenches and fortifies the participants. Pray for discernment and direction and if needed the revelation of scripture to be made known…..And move on.

    Cults depend on others condemning their behavior and see it as justifying their position in faith and in life.

    Move on and let the argument die of starvation.


  100. yooperjack says:

    Steve: You are right about those “Cults” we’ve seen some wierd Preachers in the news lately, also. They love that CNN coverage.LOL

  101. poohpity says:

    Persecution because of faith in Jesus Christ is still around today but a majority of those who say they are being persecuted may be because of their behavior and has nothing to do with faith or doctrine but because of their hardhearted, fault finding and demeaning way they present their own thoughts. I think this applies to many not just one person. It would be nice to pull back and see what disturbs us so much about someone else may be an area that we also need to work on. Remember when pointing a finger at someone else be very careful because you may find three pointing back at you. Matt 7:1-5 NLT

  102. Mart De Haan says:

    Hey, all, I don’t have another post ready. Will try to have a new subject tomorrow or as soon as I can.

  103. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    Hey Mart,

    We are ready for a new post.

    Get a move on.

    Hurry up!


  104. yooperjack says:

    poohpity: We American Christians do not relealy know what persecution or being poor is as I posted a while back. When is the last time some even slaped your face because you were a Christian. They may shun us or not invite us to their events but persecute, “No way”.

  105. poohpity says:

    Gary is not the only one who has taken the topic down other paths, that was happening way before he ever came in. Rather than finding fault it would be nice if we were stirring each other to good works and trying to understand with compassion and grace that there are areas we all have that need work. I know one thing for sure my knees have very large callouses and my mouth is about a shoe size ten. OOOps I mean a size six, lol!!

  106. poohpity says:

    Some people I have known for a while told me that they did not enjoy going to lunch with me because I talk about the bible in my conversations. These are Christian women friends when I asked them why they said that they admitting they felt guilty because they do not read it. So I have had my face slapped because of my love of reading the bible many, many times.

  107. Bob in Cornwall England says:


    Your love of the Bible and your comitment to distributing it is a wonderful thing.
    You live in the USA, perhaps the most “christian” place on this planet, “Perhaps”.

    There are places in this world where you would be killed for what you do, and shortly the USA will ban christianity because the end times are near.

    Be careful!


  108. poohpity says:

    Bob, you are so right it is going to get worse not just here but every place and if we can not build each other up more, we will allow the world and it’s behavior we as believers copy so quickly like judgment, criticism, gossiping, and self righteousness it will tear us down so quickly we will not even see it coming. We need to cling to the things that bring us together in unity, the grace the Lord shows us, it would be nice if we each just dripped with grace and mercy, just like the amount we have been shown and let God take care of the rest.

  109. poohpity says:

    Bob, in this so called Christian nation among believers only 11% have ever read the bible. Like I think it was Jack who said that maybe if we did not have the bible so available maybe more people would read it out of rebellion. That is sad ain’t it.

  110. poohpity says:

    It was because of all the things that happened centuries ago in the UK that we even have the bible for us common folks. ;-)

  111. Bob in Cornwall England says:

    There is a time coming when all believers in Jesus of Nazareth, the Risen one, The Christ, and yes we will have to define Him like that because there will be many false prophets and “christs”, will be huddled together as one, just as in the begining, at Pentecost.
    We need to consolidate and become the children of the Living God.

    “Love one anoher as I have Loved you”


  112. poohpity says:

    Amen, Amen and Amen!!!

  113. poohpity says:

    You know I was thinking if many are not familiar with the bible how will they even be able to tell the difference.

  114. yooperjack says:

    pooh: Your feelings got slapped in the face but not litterally did you get slapped, “Right”.

    A funny story: My missionary friend and I were eating in a resturant, we both talk kind of loud. We were having a joyous time in the Lord. When we finished a group at one table said they enjoyed our testimonys; but at another table we got some craby looks LOL; when I walked past that table to leave I just give them a big smile. LOL You can’t talk about the Lord in public If your not on a person bases with Him or are Religious.

  115. poohpity says:

    People who had called themselves your friend then do not want to be around you because of your love of the bible, I guess I would call that a slap by rejection. I would have much rather been physically slapped the pain goes away quicker.

    My first husband slapped me so hard it knocked my eye through my eye socket and that has healed quicker than a broken heart.

  116. yooperjack says:

    pooh: I hear you and understand; been there too.

  117. foreverblessed says:

    Yes, Bob an Pooh, amen and amen,
    Lets celebrate what binds us, and not fight over what diverts us.
    We have to get together around Jesus, the Risen One, and also the Son of God come in the flesh, born of the virgin Mary, Yes these things too. It is only by the Spirit and through the Spirit that we can say Jesus is Lord.
    The day after Christmas I felt attacked by a longtime friend, I was warning her for seeking contact with spiritality without Jesus Christ. She finds it alright that Jesus is one with God now, but she cannot see that Jesus was God, and ever was before time began. And besiedes Jesus she finds many other paths, Budha, Maria, and whatever other spiritual guides do we have around
    Then I realised this verse is so true:
    1 John 4:2,3
    This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
    but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

    This person accused me of being narrow minded, to make the path to God so narrow, only through Jesus. I think I shared this already here. It was kind of a shock to me. That is what I felt is the coming persecution.
    Do we stand for our Saviour, Jesus, the Only One who can cleanse us from our sins, and who gives us His life through faith in Him and follow Him where He goes.

  118. foreverblessed says:

    She acknowledged that Jesus is with God now, but not that He did come from God.
    It is good we know these scriptures.

  119. poohpity says:

    I wonder if what is the stem to so much confusion is not really understating what Grace is. The enormity or the scope of what that one word means.

  120. yooperjack says:

    foreverblessed: You should have said: “Thank You”. Narrow is the way God wants us to go. She complimented you and didn’t know it.

    Satan is the deciever, he is behind all this new age spirituality; by the way, it’s not really new at all.

  121. oneg2dblu says:

    Steve thanks for showing your inability to walk in forgiveness, and for charging the other side of the OSAS doctrine that has been disputed fro many years by many Christians, and labeling us as being a cult. That has really helped bring us to a much more Christ-like resolve!

  122. oneg2dblu says:

    Foreverblessed you have shown much maturity in your kind words. Blessing to you as well. Gary

  123. yooperjack says:

    Gary: Steve didn’t say your group was a cult, he said cults want attention to their movement by having others disagree with them and then sticking to their point, come hell or high water, surly you must seen this on TV.

  124. oneg2dblu says:

    Bob in cornwall… sorry I missed one of your earlier comments, about swinging both ways on this issue depending on who spoke last. Perhaps that was an insensitive use of words, if that offends you I’m sorry. It should be the Holy Spirit and the Word of God, that speaks “into you” not the comman people in this group, of OSAS believers whose voices make this topic so lengthy.
    They feel as though they have finished their walk of salvation, when they first believed.
    I started mine when I first believed, there is a difference, because i am still working mine out daily.
    I live for the Hope of Salvation, that is the Biblcal defining of our remaining in Faith, which we all base our hope on.
    I too have sin in my life, I’m just as human as the rest of us, believe that or not. Some people here, for the sake of drama, and or the attention they get from others, have put me on a pedestal of extremes, but God knows me better! Their opinion of course is wrong as they continue to judge me, as they seem fit. They won’t give it up the fight, or turn it over to the Lord. So the labels keep coming out.I hurt also when people shut me out, not the jerks who don’t know the Lord, but the self claimed well read higher authorities among us. Forgive them Lord for they know not what they do either!
    I do not know where you got that term “it.” But, He, the Holy Spirt has a job to do, every part of God’s Kingdom has a job, a work to do. To me, the PERSON of the Holy Spirit convicts us for a purpose, not to remain constantly reconvicted over and over, but to also help us to change. If that is a cultish type of thinking, than Christianity is a cult, as defined by others here.
    But like the IT word, the word CULT did not come from me.
    Sorry to cut you off here, i’m off to the cult… I meant to say church as we meet on Wednesday night at 6:45, for Bible Study and more. Gary

  125. yooperjack says:

    Gary: You don’t know how close you are at being right when you say that christianity is a cult as defined by others here. Check Webster’s New World dictionary then do a study on all the different Christian sects. It’s scary. I did it when that Preacher from Dallas TX said Mormonisum was a cult, on TV. I wrote him a letter to tell him to do his homework before getting on TV in a desperate attempt to help Rick Perry his friend win the Republican race.

    He never responded back, I figure some of those big church leaders are so puffed up with ego, they feel their never wrong.

  126. yooperjack says:

    Gary; Just to clarify I am not talking about Christianity as was in the begining at Antioch. I’m talking about the mess we have today.

  127. phpatato says:

    Pooh you said

    “I wonder if what is the stem to so much confusion is not really understating what Grace is. The enormity or the scope of what that one word means.”

    I have written in my Bible this:

    G – God’s
    R – Riches
    A – At
    C – Christ’s
    E – Expense

    To me, that is one good definition of the word.

    Jack you said

    “We American Christians do not relealy know what persecution or being poor is”

    Could it not be said that having God taken out of American/Canadian schools and government buildings be a form of persecution? We are surely beginning to see and feel what it is like, but having said this, I know you meant the persecution that Paul (for instance) faced in his ministry. Now that was persecution.

    Gary I believe Bob saw this “it” in your comment of the Holy Spirit. You said “it” this way…for clarification purposes, permit me to capitalize “it” so you can see “it” exactly. :-)

    Maybe the next topic could be, “What currently is your favorite sin, and when are you going to allow the Holy Spirit to really do what “IT” should, Convict you,
    and change you, No matter what you believe!

  128. yooperjack says:

    Phpatato: Even in other countrys Christians are getting killed, blown up and burned out today.

    We are on our way to real persecution with this move to make it illigal to say or write anything that may be considerd “Hate Speech”. Peachers will go to jail for preaching the Word. The Bible may be illigal to own; we don’t know how far this will go if this can of worms is opened.

  129. phpatato says:

    You are so right Jack. There is persecution in other countries even today that is beginning to hit North American soil. I don’t know about you but I believe that can of worms has already started to open. The New World Order is alive and well and many will be blindly lead into it.

    Matthew 24

    Be ready and watchful

  130. foreverblessed says:

    GRACE, thank you phpatato, never heard that before:
    God’s Riches At Christ’s Expanse.
    Now this friend of mine is convinced God would not give us riches at the expanse of His Son. He would not want blood to be spend for our forgiveness, He could forgive it just by the click of his fingers. And besides that persons sins are not that bad at all.
    So there you are, what to say?
    I keep praying for that person. And in the meantime, I take care that I am a more lovable person, more of Christ in me, that is what we can stretch out to more, so more people are attracted to Christ.

  131. ltlyg says:

    I am new to the blog, and yes this has been thought and discussion. This question really becomes a testament to the life of a Christian (Christ’s own or belonging to Christ).
    1. We receive the saving grace the is offered to us at the cross.
    2. We enter through the opening created as a result of the torn veil.
    3. After passing through the veil, We seek diligently to have again the relationship with God that was taken away as a result of the the seed of Adam given us at birth.
    Have we gone all the way through the three steps, or have we fallen short at just # 1 or # 2 and stopped at the cross and/or only passed through the veil into the heavenly realm? For me, this is a daily question.
    We were eternally damned to separation from God. By the blood of Christ, we have been given access to not only just the salvation from sin and kingdom fruit, but unto restored relationship to our God who so desired it that he would create a means to make it possible.
    This is really all about how seriously we take that in our return to him in relationship; Love the Lord you God with all of your heart……… Not in what we do or what we believe, but in who we become as a result of the restoration of that oneness with Him.
    I know from reading the word, that there is indeed going to be those that are ushered the left, and those that are ushered to the right. I have no idea what it truly means to be sure of where I will be. I know what I have been told and taught throughout the years by scholars and teachers. I want/need and desire to have the kind of relationship with God himself today that I have no need to worry about eternity and what that will be. Seek Ye First the Kingdom (today) of God, and all these things will be added unto you (eternally).
    In Jeremiah 13, God uses the example of the rotted waistband which is a symbol of our bond with him.
    He said, For as the waistband clings to the waist of a man, so I made the whole household of Israel and the whole household of Judah cling to Me,’ declares the LORD, ‘that they might be for Me a people, for renown, for praise and for glory; but they did not listen.’
    Cling Brothers and Sister, Cling today.

  132. yooperjack says:

    ltlyg: You said: I have no idea what it means to be sure of where I will be. Keep seeking and you will find the answer. We live by faith not by sight.

    I have lived by faith long enough and seen the working of God in my life by doing what the Bible says to do, that there is no doubt in my mind salvation through Jesus is for real. Eternal life with Jesus is not just a hope to me any more I’m looking forward to it.

    Don’t reliy on others, get in the Bible and study it at least the NT, it’s an instruction book to the good life. How many people do you know today that are content with there life. I can honestly say I am and have been for some time. I’m still learning too.

    Then share with others your good fortune.

  133. oneg2dblu says:

    phpatato, thank you, like many others here I stand well due of needed correction. I often do not go back and read properly my own path to help me find the way. I tread on thinking to myself, how could I return to my old sin, oops, return to my old ways, oops, if I have “really died” to my old self, oops, died to my old nature, where I “was found” in my sin? I did bring into and I am guilty of. that great so easly unseen “IT,” into this conversation of the already saved saints here. When “it” surfaces, people get very out of hand, oops! I thought the word said that “no one” could take you out of God’s Hand, but sin has “IT’S” most deceptive ways… whether we believe that or not, has only to do with what doctrine we also choose to believe.
    My choice is this, IT, (our sin,) always separates us!
    It always lets us “walk right out of our new creation,” and back into the hand of the old one, “self” oops!If we “were” already fixed through Christ dying for our past, present. and future sin, and not just the sins we “were” found to be living in at the time of our initial salvation, which is what the word actually does say, if we choose to read them and not read into this now accepted doctrinal take, or mistake in this instance, of man’s interpretation. Instead, we actually live with a “great hope” awaiting our Eternal Salvation. Because sin would never have this control over a life lived IN Christ where their was also much temptation, but never any sin ruling over Him. That hope, is what we all wait upon, but we really already have it, only “IF” we were to Obey the Person of the Holy Spirit within us, which we clearly do not do. Or, If we did obey God’s Word which we also clearly do not do! Then, surely we would be able to overcome even this world, and of course that besetting sin we choose to still seem to live in. This saying we have “no choice” is also saying we are already defeated, and have no real faith in the Power of this God-given Spirit, or His Word! You either have something, or you have not yet chosen to have it. I guess we all let our “prefered doctrine” do the choosing for us…. If the shoe fits,just keep on helplessly sinning and you’ll be okay? Over who’s dead body do we really believe we can go on sinning for ourselves?
    Just a though… Be Blessed,Gary

  134. phpatato says:


    A simple answer of “oops I made a mistake, thanks” would have sufficed! You lost me in your last post.


    Be Blessed as well!

  135. ltlyg says:

    yooperjack: Thank you much for your encouragement. It is greatly appreciated. I as you are am confident in my place with Christ, but I also remain in the fear of God. Jesus said, I do not trust man, because I know what is in man. Peter claimed he would never deny Christ.
    We are still man, yes, man that has new nature, but there is still a thorn. I guess my post was intend to bring forth the importance of spending intimate time with our best friend daily. We get caught up in whether or not if we say a prayer and confess it to others, it has a sealed deal/ or hasn’t it? The only sealed deal in my estimation today is that He has given me access to the throne room in His mansion and that He has invited me to feast at his banquet table. Really the only question is, will I go? Eternity has already began. We learn from him when we spend time with him. I can read 20 more books to understand Him this year, and in a matter of ten minutes time spent with Him in the Spirit, much more can be revealed to me and rather than having more understanding and knowledge, something becomes etched in my heart. I know this post brings debate through the Christian world, shame on us. Like little children, GO and sit at the table which has been prepared. Feast and learn of his ways.
    One of the things I have meditated on over the past year is this: Moses is historically the greatest character who we see had tangible relationship with God. He knew God. God said: I show myself to the prophets in visions and in dreams, but not so with my servant Moses. I speak with him face to face.
    Now, the thing to meditate on is this; Moses, being this man who clearly spoke with God regularly and knew him prayed this prayer.
    Lord, show me your ways so I might know you.
    My encouragement to all is that we will indeed get to know the God that so saved us unto restored relationship to himself. We get caught in the understanding and beliefs and strife enters the room so quickly. I remember reading this some years back in Jeremiah. Woe to the prophets; Woe to those who would say “thus sayeth the Lord” rather they should say “what is the Lord saying to you”
    If you want to know the answer to this, and so many other questions, GO to the mansion, sit at the dining table of your God and ask Him to show you the mysteries he has. Lord, show me your ways so I may know you.
    God Bless you All!

  136. oneg2dblu says:

    phpatato… “oops I made a mistake, thanks” :)

Leave a Comment

You must be logged in to post a comment.