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Yom Kippur 2012

Today is Yom Kippur. An article in the Washing Post describes what it means this year as a nation recognizes its sins, in the presence of its enemies.

Also known as The Day of Atonement, this is a day of national repentance with a view toward national forgiveness and deliverance.

I’ve often been moved by the lengthy confessions read by observant Jewish people on this day as they admit to sins done knowingly and unknowingly. For example, the following is a prayer of  Yom Kippur.

“What shall we say before You, You who dwell on high and what shall we declare before You, You who abide in the heavens?  Don’t You know all things, both the hidden and the revealed? You know the mysteries of the universe and the hidden secrets of all living.  You search out the heart of man, and probe all our thoughts and aspirations.  Naught escapes You, neither is anything concealed from Your sight.

May it therefore be Your will, 0 L-rd, our G-d and G-d of our fathers, to forgive us all our sins, to pardon all our iniquities, and to grant us atonement for all our transgressions.

For the sin which we have committed before You under compulsion or of our own will,  And for the sin which we have committed before You by hardening our hearts; For the sin which we have committed before You unknowingly, And for the sin which we have committed before You with utterance of the lips;

For the sin which we have committed before You by unchastity, And for the sin which we have committed before You openly or secretly; For the sin which we have committed before You knowingly and deceitfully, And for the sin which we have committed before You in speech;

For the sin which we have committed before You by wronging our neighbor, And for the sin which we have committed before You by sinful meditation of the heart; For the sin which we have committed before You by association with impurity, And for the sin which we have committed before You by confession of the lips;

For the sin which we have committed before You by spurning parents and teachers, And for the sin which we have committed before You in presumption or in error; For the sin which we have committed before You by violence, And for the sin which we have committed before You by the profanation of Your name; For the sin which we have committed before You by unclean lips, And for the sin which we have committed before You by impure speech;

For the sin which we have committed before You by the evil inclination, And for the sin which we have committed before You wittingly or unwittingly;

For all these, 0 G-d of forgiveness, forgive us, pardon us, grant us atonement. For the sin which we have committed before You by denying and lying, And for the sin which we have committed before You by bribery; For the sin which we have committed before You by scoffing, And for the sin which we have committed before You by slander;

For the sin which we have committed before You in commerce, And for the sin which we have committed before You in eating and drinking; For the sin which we have committed before You by demanding usurous interest, And for the sin which we have committed before You by stretching forth the neck in pride;

For the sin which we have committed before You by idle gossip, And for the sin which we have committed before You with wanton looks; For the sin which we have committed before You with haughty eyes, And for the sin which we have committed before You by effrontery;

For all these, 0 G-d of forgiveness, forgive us, pardon us, grant us atonement. For the sin which we have committed before You by casting off the yoke of Your commandments, And for the sin which we have committed before You by contentiousness;

For the sin which wehave committed before You by ensnaring our neighbor, And for the sin which we have committed before You by envy; For the sin which we have committed before You by levity, And for the sin which we have committed before You by being stiff-necked; For the sin which we have committed before You by running to do evil, And for the sin which we have committed before You by tale bearing;

For the sin which we have committed before You by vain oaths, And for the sin which we have committed before You by causeless hatred; For the sin which we have committed before You by breach of trust, And for the sin which we have committed before You with confusion of mind; For all these, 0 G-d of forgiveness, forgive us, pardon us, grant us atonement.

When I think of this day and the need for such soul-searching, however, I also think of an emotional, heart-breaking section of the Scripture that may describe a day foreshadowed by the ancient Day of Atonement.

The prophet Zechariah speaks of a time when all the world turns against Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:1-9)…and when God gives a remnant of Israel eyes and hearts to grieve the ultimate wrong of wrongs—that in God’s amazing ways turns into the rescue that every heart desperately needs   (Zechariah 12:10-14)…

Now, admittedly, there is a lot of mystery woven into such prophetic visions. Only in retrospect will we see how God’s ways play out.

But for now, seems to me that this vision may anticipate a fulfilling moment of an ancient sacrifice, the death of the Son God; the future of a nation, and the ultimate judgment and hope of the world.

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56 Responses to “Yom Kippur 2012”

  1. cherielyn says:

    Wow! That prayer seems to cover it ALL and makes me realize how my feeble attempts at confessing my sins and asking for forgiveness fall so far short.

  2. Bill says:

    Morning, Mart!

    I was hoping you’d do a blog about Yom Kippur.

    With each passing year — especially in the last three or so years — I grow increasingly worried about Israel. In spite of being one of the tiniest nations on earth, Israel continues to be focus of the world…and the target of Muslim nations (especially Iran) that seek its demise. I can’t even imagine what it must be like living in Israel, under constant threat of violence.

    Yet, despite the imminent threat of war (or even extinction), according to the Washington Post article you cited, the nation of Israel is doing this:

    “The country has completely closed its airspace to airplanes, shut down its buses and trains, and locked its border crossings in preparation the holy day, which begins Tuesday evening and ends Wednesday after sundown. Restaurants, businesses and schools closed, government ministries shuttered, and Israeli television and radio stations went silent. Highways and roads emptied of cars — a convention honored even by most secular and non-Jewish Israelis.”

    As America becomes more secular, as Christianity is forced into an ever smaller, more restrictive box, I often wonder what it would be like to do as the Jewish people do and totally set aside a time for this purpose — atonement, the airing of sins, contrition, humbleness. Not just as individuals, but as a nation.

    We’re all familiar with the scripture from 2 Chronicles 7:

    “…if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.”
    (2 Chronicles 7:14 ESV)

    I’m not sure it could be said that America is the nation she used to be. Whatever Christian roots we may have had as a nation are long gone. So that means we will not likely ever do what the nation of Israel is now doing — set aside time before God as a nation.

    We used to do that. Sort of. Christmas, for example, used to be a holiday celebrated by most Americans, even in public schools. I’m old enough to remember, in school, singing Christmas carols and daring to utter the name of Jesus on the day we celebrate as His birthday. For me, as a kid growing up in Michigan (as much a Winter Wonderland as Water Wonderland), it felt like a magical time, the perfect time to join together with so many other kids to celebrate the same holiday. I felt a kind of corporate unity, a sense of the peace of brotherhood with others.

    So I know the value of what the Jewish people must feel at this time.

    We may not gather together as a nation under God these days. But there’s something to be said for our own individual, private airing of sins, our own confessions before God — not for the sake of having them forgiven or wiped away. Jesus already accomplished that. Rather, for the sake of our own peace of mind and humility. A person without sin existed only once in the world. And it ain’t me, I can assure you.

    So on Yom Kippur, I join with my Jewish brothers and sisters (in the sense that we are all human beings, kin folk under the skin) and confess my own shortcomings.

    If more of us do that, perhaps we will know this promise: “…then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.”

  3. SFDBWV says:

    Wow Mart reading that lengthy prayer wore me out and I would think wore you out just typing it.

    It is exciting to know that it is from this point in Jewish tradition that the nation of Israel will recognize Jesus of Nazareth to be the Messiah and petition God to deliver them from their enemies.

    Thus beginning the “great and terrible day of the Lord” (Joel 2: 31).

    From a nationalist point of view, I would love to have my own nation make such a prayer not only once a year but every day.

    I am always encouraged by the examples God gives in Scripture of his mercy towards any and all who repent, and I am equally saddened by the examples God gives in Scripture for the nations who do not.

    Not wanting to start another brou-ha-ha but I will only say that I as an individual stand with the nation of Israel, pray for her and support her in any way I can.

    I am sorry if that makes me an enemy of her enemies and a target for their hatred, but I will not back down nor change my position. Only pray that their eyes are opened as well.


  4. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends –

    The twelve points of confession and repentance you present are a fitting self-examination for Yom Kippur. Interesting that secular Jews take the day “off” to do quiet activities at home instead of going to synagogue. It seems that even unbelievers are willing to be quiet while believers bow before God. The reporter does not mention how Muslims and Christians are observing the fast.

    There is strong precedent for nations seeking God in order to avert disaster and destruction. The king of Nineveh called for fasting and prayer before the Lord. (Jonah 3:6, 7, 8, 9) Also, Queen Esther called for fasting as she sought to go before the king of Susa to save the Jews from Haman’s plot. (Esther 4:16, 17)

    It believe that true repentance leading to change is pleasing to the Lord – especially when leaders and the powerful sincerely turn to God. How will President Obama prepare today for his speech before the UN tomorrow? I am praying for peace – and for wisdom for our leaders — and for the Lord’s mercy.


  5. oneg2dblu says:

    Mart… thank you for sharing a place every Christian could go with their soul today, but sadly will not allow themselves.
    That is the most profound prayer of the outpouring of the Soul of a Nation to a G-d who is so able to see all sin, because nothing is hidden from Him.
    I stand with this Nation of Souls who partake in such Reverence to their God today.
    Steve, you beat me to the punch here with your standing up, but you my brother have here many others who will stand with you in this Day of Attonement for His Nation. His People, called by His Name.
    Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem, the Peace of their immediate surrounding darkness, and Peace on all the Earth which only God can bring. Gary

  6. oneg2dblu says:

    God will save a nation for a Remnant. God will save a soul for a Repentant Heart. I’m so glad the topic is sin, the gravity of sin, the nature of sin, the absolute terror of sin, because it hides itself in the world today, looking as both unmentioned and unrepented.
    “Our contemporary culture…mocks sin, denies sin, excuses sin, defends sin, ignores sin, rationalizes sin, enjoys sin, flaunts sin, promotes sin, glorifies sin, applauds sin, redefines sin, relabels sin…
    but God hates sin. Ultimately, it cost Him the life of His own beloved son. Anne Graham Lotz
    “While our culture doesn’t seem to take sin seriously, the greater shame is that many Christians don’t seem to take sin very seriously either.
    We seem to think…
    we can sin and get by with it, we can sin and leave the consequences to a good counselor, we can sin and survive,
    we can sin and rationalize that it is okay because
    everyone does it, we can sin and claim to be under God’s grace, not His Law, we can sin and say it was just a small one, but sin is serious in God’s eyes.
    Why do you and I tolerate and toy with sin that cost the Son of God His Life?
    Why don’t we take it seriously… for Jesus’ sake?
    Anne Graham Lotz
    Maybe the Nation of Israel is in to something very
    much needed for all nations. Gary

  7. poohpity says:

    The Day of Atonement, the only day of the year that the High Priest could enter the Holy of Holies. Exodus 30:10 and Lev 16. Upon the death of Jesus that curtain was torn because He was our High Priest that made atonement for our sins (Zech 12:10;Matt 27:51). Moment by moment when we confess our sins they are forgiven 1 John 1:9.

    Zechariah seems to be saying that it is the Spirit of God that convicts of sin Zech 12:12-14. Each person will face their sorrow alone then a fountain will be open to cleanse them of sin Zech 13:1. Looks like that was fulfilled in Jesus but seems to a prophecy of what will happen in the future. God is not done with Israel yet and it seems that God wants to be the go to for them rather than any nation of the world. I wonder if that means we are going to step aside if not on our own but maybe made to from God.

  8. Bob in Cornwall England says:


    You explained yourself so eloquently yesterday, September 25, 2012 at 10:18 am,
    how you feel about “once saved always saved” and your belief in what Jesus said to His disciples when He said “If you love me you will keep my commands”.
    I have struggled with your thinking and always thought you were living under the law, but your explanation was very timely as today is Yom Kippur, The Day of Atonement, and it is a good day to acknowledge our sins and the sins of our nations.
    God has placed Israel in a unique position as His Own People and Brethren on Earth. When that day comes and the remnant (144,000) realise their greatest sin in rejecting Messiah all those years ago, the world will take a deep breath and the Great and Terrible Day will soon be upon us when Messiah returns to save His people once again.
    Thank God He gave us all a chance to repent and receive this salvation now and not have to wait until that day.
    In this salvation it is our responsibility to follow Jesus & submit ourselves to the Will of The Father, just as Jesus did.
    “If you Love me Keep my commands”
    “Love the Lord you God with all your heart, soul and strength & your neighbour as yourself”.
    He promised in Isaiah that The Law would be written in our hearts and He also said it is what comes out of the heart that defines us.
    Sin has no part in that, if we sin then sin is in our hearts.
    If Jesus lives in our hearts then we should not sin.
    We had a sermon last Thursday about guarding our hearts & not allowing ourselves to be influence by popular opinion or doubts. Caleb & Joshua were sited as examples of this.
    We are to fill our hearts & mind with God’s Word and promises, just as Caleb did, believing what Jehovah said to be absolute truth and not submitting to others opinions.

    One day Israel will know, as we know, that The Day of Atonement was paid for at The Passover & Passion of Jesus the Nazarene, The Living, Perfect Sacrifice of our Living God.


  9. poohpity says:

    You know I was thinking about the sin in my life that it seems I no longer mourn over them which really shows that I need to take a stronger look at what is happening. The way I mourned when I first believed or the way I mourned over the loss of a loved one. That really grieves my spirit. The lack of dependence and trust on the Lord to be my sole provider is one area I should be weeping in sorrow about but it seems I justify it by saying this is a different time that God does not provide like He used to when they were in the desert. That is so wrong because when I have sat on my patio and prayed with all earnestness for that days food then within five minutes a knock on the door came with food, I should know but I will borrow money and go in the hole when all I needed to do was pray.

  10. poohpity says:

    How can I expect a nation to depend on the Lord when in my own heart I fail.

  11. foreverblessed says:

    What a long list of sins, what a many sins, I am glad that God tells us to come to Him, and He will slowly make more light in our hidden parts, for to see all at once, that might be overwhelming. But all sins are covered by Jesus
    v 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
    All things, whether thins on earth or things in heaven, that is quite encompassing.
    But what a beautiful prophecy in Zechariah 12:10!
    mourn until the grace of God comes over us, and peace is the result.
    Grace and peace unto you through God the Father and Jesus His Son.

  12. His Sparrow says:

    I;m so grateful God’s mercy is new every morning.

  13. His Sparrow says:


  14. poohpity says:

    Me 2!!

  15. BruceC says:


    I don’t think I could add another word to your post. Yes; I too remember those days back then of Christmas programs in school and the singing of hymns and carols. And I also rmember the day we were told we could no longer pray. As a nation I think we could do well with a month of atonement for all our sins against God.


    I too stand with you for Israel along with many others in our land and throughout the world.

    Great post Mart. I think I will save that prayer as a reminder of how wretched I am and how loving and merciful our Lord is.

    Soli Deo Gloria!

  16. SFDBWV says:

    Bill exposed his longing for when we as a nation were better *Christians*, I totally agree, but it isn’t just here in the USA, it is a world wide loss of everything from class and dignity and honorable living to the care and concern for the family next door.

    Bill and I as well as others are old enough to remember when this all began to fall apart; it was the 60’s and though I can name names to place timelines and events to herald in the demise of good clean living I fear it would only inflame others and so my observations will have to be mute.

    That’s one of those quiet dignity things that have to come ahead of just wanting to say whatever one feels right in doing; being concerned for the feelings of another.

    As we read of an ancient Hebrew custom, we are reminded of the Biblical truth that God orchestrated the creation of the Hebrew people and established the boundaries of the Nation of Israel.

    No other nation can boast of this distinction, only Israel and that one statement inflames the hatred and anger of her neighbors just as it did Cain in the story of the first murder recorded in history.

    As I watch the news of the world, observe and listen to people and events and read even some here of their approach to the world view I can see clearly a world ripe for accepting the anti-christ and doing so all the while believing they to be not only right, but doing the will of God.

    Many of us older people have felt that tug at becoming self sufficient and becoming less dependent on every modern convenience; having that cabin in the wilderness and living off of home grown food and the meat me can take. That inner urging has spawned survivalists, militants, cults and a commercial industry to support it. Never the less it is a *feeling* many people have; why?
    I believe it is given as a precursor to where people see the world heading and people wanting to be able to survive when what they can not name comes to be.

    What about we Christians? As many people that populate the earth there are as many opinions as to concerning everything. Will we escape the coming judgment of the world? Or will we be persecuted for Christ when it comes?

    Many of us place are cautious hope on being *raptured* out of this world when that great and terrible day of the Lord comes.

    I certainly *hope* so as all my plans of becoming *self sufficient* were dashed when my life changed forever in 1999 and I had to learn that the only true self sufficiency is found in trusting God.

    Trusting God means believing that He is and believing that He is brings me to that very long prayer Mart gave as a request for forgiveness, but believing and trusting Jesus brings me to understand that Jesus filled that request hanging on a cross and asking God to forgive us all for we do not know what we do.


  17. cherielyn says:

    I am old enough to remember an America that was still holding (somewhat) to it’s Christian foundation. It has more than saddened me to see the drastic decline in the almost 50 years since I graduated from high school.

    I, too, remember the school days when we prepared for Christmas and Easter, with so much excitement, and that it was not yet considered ‘politically incorrect’ to do so.

    I remember that we did not get passed on to the next grade if we didn’t pass year-end tests. Now, kids are pushed to the next grades whether they have learned anything or not. Many ‘graduate’ from high school, intending to go on to college, and can’t read! That is astounding!

    And we wonder why America is in the state it is in? Kids being handed a high school diploma, without having earned it, expect the same treatment on the job, etc. The younger generation has turned into a culture of entitlement. If/when we have a natural (or planned) disaster, the younger generation will not know how to function and will most likely turn to all sorts of crime to meet their basic needs (and wants) and the underpinning of that can only be SIN!

    I could expound on that, but don’t have the time right now.

    I stand with all of you who believe we should stand behind Israel. If we are not raptured before then, I expect to see God’s hand working on behalf of Israel. Won’t her enemies ever be surprised when they find that their attacks on Israel have failed!

  18. oneg2dblu says:

    Steve… very true we do not know what we do, but we do know what we haven’t done and should have. We have failed to make a stand! The sins of ommission are great in this nation, and as you have stated it was in the 60’s where you has said it started. The churched among us, did not stand up against this ripple of change which is now a tidal wave of darkness that has totally permiated our daily world.
    “Be wary of the of the intoxication of gradualism.”
    Martin Luther King
    We have gradually declinded in all our ways as a nation that did not make a stand when it should have!
    Today, Israel has to face that same reality about where their nation now stands, as Our White House does not seem to give them much hope while those who oppose Israel seem to be welcomed with open arms. Gradually our nation has darkened and needs its good people to make a stand again.
    Here’s take on toady’s message in God at Eventide… When right actions go unaddressed, overtime there comes a time when right can no longer be heard and understood.
    “A person hears only what they understand.” Goethe
    There is a deafness occurring in our society brought about by removing the very mention of Jesus Christ or God at every turn of our new culture.
    We may claim we know where it started, but do we know when we will start to stop it?
    While it is still called today, we have to make that stand against this ever growing darkness by bringing the only names we know of that can help us.
    “May God Bless America and all those who are called by His Name.”
    When will this Nation make it’s stand and return to being, Under God again?
    When it Repents as a Nation,as Isreal did yesterday!

  19. oneg2dblu says:

    Cherielyn… you brought up the one point I was discussing with another at church last night about her take on Israel not mentioned in Revelation.
    She was reading in Daniel 7 about the countries named there and then in Revelation the same listing with no mention of the existence of Israel or the United States, but Iran is still there!
    I immediately said to her if that is after the Rapture…
    Then I do not care, for it is all in God’s design.
    My only hope is that we the Raptured, those who remain Spiritually Alive in Christ, should not need to be concerned about such for Our God is in control.
    My thoughts today are any world leader who says the United States in no longer a Christian Nation is really hoping to bring this about by his words alone, but this nation is not founded on those worldly words, but on those found in God’s Word!
    Praise God we can be,” One Nation Under God,” when we collectively stand with His Nation of Israel! Gary

  20. poohpity says:

    I could be wrong but I thought that rebellion against God started when there were only two people in the world and they both did it. So that was 100% of the population that turned from God and I do not believe it was any different than it is now. That is the reason Jesus came because God knew that in every heart there is a tendency to sin.

    When asked about Israel Jesus said, Acts 1:6,7 NIV and then told us what we are to do in Acts 1:8 NIV. So I would think that if we are not telling people then we have a lot to think about rather than holding nations responsible for the shortcomings in each of our own lives. Telling one person at a time about the mercy and grace of God then think of the amount of people we will have to pray for the restoration of ALL peoples to Our Lord and Savior.

  21. poohpity says:

    Acts 1:6-7 NIV

  22. poohpity says:

    I still do not know how we refer to the USA as a Christian Nation when there are more non-Christians than there are Christians just because the freedoms we have are founded on the Bible when The Constitution and the The Bill of Rights were drafted. I fully believe that is a misnomer and shows by the majority here.

  23. His Sparrow says:

    Hi Everybody!

    I still get and very much enjoy the print copy of “Our Daily Bread” and the Discovery Series booklets.

    I’m reading “The Forgiveness of God” right now.
    What is really sticking with me is the section titled “God’s mercy equals His justice.”

    As a human, I don’t know that I could do that, something would always be out of balance to favor myself, I’m sure about that.

    I stand with Israel for her right to exist, in the place given by God. I also believe what God says in the Bible about the things to come and that He wants us to be ready for His return at anytime.

    I believe He wants us to be self-reliant in His providence for us, not the extremism a noticeable amount of people are displaying with hoarding food, etc.

    This year, my garden produced more than ever as I kinda just let things grow rather than engineering a garden. My goats are “pastured” on the plants that just volunteered on their own-that’s the kinda God reliance I thrive in.

    The lengthy confession bothers me a bit. If it is of a type that is different every time, then it is probably from the heart.

    If it is recited and ritualized, I think there is no life in it. That’s when this remembrance events become religion; not faith.

    Maybe the definition of “a Christian nation” at one time meant that the religion labels and the membership (Roman Catholic to Islam) could be counted, like a census.

    But the Christian faith…that is what is missing in the term “Christian nation.”

    I love all my neighbors-some at a safe distance!

    His Sparrow

  24. SFDBWV says:

    This topic has a slippery side to it that can take one into nationalism or politics whatever term suits you best.

    Reading Scripture, I can not deny that Jesus told His Disciples to go first to the *house* of Israel.

    God established the Feasts and Holidays for Israel to observe, and as we have learned The Feast of Tabernacles is still observed after the return of Jesus and the establishment of His Kingdom on Earth.

    On the “Days of Awe” our names are written in the book of life, on Yom Kippur the book is sealed, and this day is set aside as a last opportunity for atonement before judgment.

    So if I look at the significance of having only one last chance at forgiveness, it was on this day of refection and repentance and the making of amends.

    This done on a national level, by all the people and their religious and political leaders.

    What can I learn from these Jewish feasts to make me a better Christian? What can I learn about Jesus from them? What opportunity do they provide for me as a believer to witness to an unbeliever?

    Since Jesus fulfilled all of the Books of Scripture are we then to understand that every day is the last and only day of repentance, through Him?

    It is also to be understood that without Jesus these prayers by the Jewish nation go up by another way and not through the proper gate and so are mute until that one day when as a nation they are offered up through the one they pierced and rejected as spoken of in Zechariah 12: 10, 11, 12, 13, 14. Read on then in Zechariah 13: 1-9 and Zechariah 14: 1-20.


  25. oneg2dblu says:

    Steve… would you say another way for their prayers might be by their Way of Obedience or religious practice to the only one who that nation and its people can see today as their G-d.
    They certainly can not be held responsible to see that which God has blinded them from seeing today, that which we find only in Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, Our Messiah, Our God.
    So, there is also a slippery side of following any nationalism, political bent, or any religion. Just a thought… Gary

  26. oneg2dblu says:

    It seems there are slippery slopes all around here.
    I would hope that in God’s eyes, that for a Remnant
    He sees a Nation. I would hope that in God’s eyes, that the Godly ideals we are built upon would stand to have a greater weight, than any shear population percentages.
    I do put All my Trust in God. I do trust we are that One Nation Under God, who will stand as a light to all others who now parade in darkness. If for no other reason than for that remnant that founded us, their putting first God’s ideals in the hearts of men, through the penning words of Our Founding Fathers.
    To God be the Glory!
    I’m stuck on values, morals, and principles of those old ideals, and being Under God is where I belong.
    To only be counting heads, and then making concessions for modern ideals never has impressed me, but being under God, that overwhelms and other possibility, and I will not change my position to appease any modern masses, or their modern ideals. Gary

  27. oneg2dblu says:

    “any other possibility” :)

  28. oneg2dblu says:

    Pooh…this song of America says it all…

    “My Coutry ‘Tis of Thee”

    It does not say “tis of them” the counted masses!

    “My coutry tis of thee,
    Sweet land of liberty,
    Of thee I sing.
    Land where my fathers died!
    Land of the Pilgrim’s pride!
    From every mountainside,
    Let freedom ring!

    My native country ,thee,
    Land of noble free,
    Thy name I love.
    I love thy rocks and rills,
    Thy woods and templed hills,
    My heart with rapture fills
    Like that above.

    Let music swell the breeze,
    And ring from all the trees
    Sweet freedom’s song.
    Let mortal tongues awake;
    Let all that breathe partake;
    Let rocks their silence break,
    The sound prolong.

    Our father’s God to, Thee,
    Author of liberty,
    To Thee we sing.
    Long may our land be bright
    With freedom’s holy light;
    Protect us by thy might,
    Great God, our King!

    That is the song of a America,
    a Judeo/Christian Nation!

    To me, you can’t change that by taking any census!

  29. oneg2dblu says:

    To all others who have to bear our differences of opinion… “Please excuse my many words that do not apply to you, being in other nations.”
    I do not want to offend anyone here, but the topic does wander at times, as directed by others.
    “Let us keep our eyes fixed upon Jesus our Lord”
    I’m sorry I’ve again slipped off the slope here!

  30. remarutho says:

    Good Evening Mart and Friends –

    Mart, you wrote:
    “When I think of this day and the need for such soul-searching, however, I also think of an emotional, heart-breaking section of the Scripture that may describe a day foreshadowed by the ancient Day of Atonement.”
    Jews and Christians alike have the fulfillment of this most holy day ahead of us, somewhere in future history.

    Prophet Zechariah’s words certainly sound like the nation of Israel coming face to face with the sacrifice of Messiah. Bitter weeping and mourning will break out on that ultimate day:

    “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land shall mourn, each family by itself…” (Zechariah 12:10-12)

    It is impossible to imagine exactly what will have come to pass to create overwhelming sadness and cries for grace and pleas for mercy. Surely no military action will bring an outpouring of grace, such as Zechariah prophesies. It surely will be a sovereign moving of the Holy Spirit.


  31. poohpity says:

    The USA are pieces of land filled with many peoples and people groups who are allowed the freedom to worship of their choice. Christians live here as they live in many others countries, I have come to understand that a Christian’s home is not of this world we are only aliens visiting until we go home to our eternal home where Jesus has gone before us to prepare a place for us so where He is, we could live there too. (John 14:2-3 NIV) My home and my nation is with Jesus although temporarily I live in America. I do not think that the Lord would have me force my beliefs or ideals on anyone but to live them myself and tell others of His vast love.

    I believe that God has Israel in His hands or that little itty bitty country surrounded by all those hostile nations would no longer exist. I believe that God has given many prophesies about them but ultimately wants to be their only hope as He has always been and I do not see now how those prophesies will be fulfilled because we normally only see their fulfillment from hindsight. Even tho the Lord has warned what will happen to them I also see where the whole world will no longer exist as it is but a New Jerusalem will ushered in.

  32. poohpity says:

    Benjamin Netanyahu’s speech before the UN today was very interesting to listen to and very enlightening.

  33. poohpity says:

    I also believe that all the world and their peoples are beloved by our God even if they do not acknowledge Him or desire to know Him. I believe Jesus died for them all and is willing to show them the abundance of His grace and mercy no matter where they live, that is why we were given the Great Commission.

  34. SFDBWV says:

    As so often happens I began an oratory this morning and it grew and grew until it morphed into something other than what I started out to say. So I cleared it off, had some more coffee, folded the towels and put them away.

    First of all, Gary I want you to know that I too share your love of attempting to live a moral life. I see nothing wrong what so ever in trying to be a good neighbor and good citizen of whatever country we reside in.

    God established these holidays in order for Israel to remember her roots and by doing so we who call ourselves Christian are reminded as well as to where our faith has its beginnings and roots, so we are *related* to the same holidays through Jesus of Nazareth who established them.

    No one other than God created the Nation of Israel; one can argue that God also created all the other nations by being God, exacting His sovereign will everywhere within His creation.

    However unless you accept the solitary life of a monk, nun, or hermit you are a citizen of somewhere and in so being owe a responsibility to wherever home might be.

    Constantine recognized the beauty and strength in Christian morals and Christian living and so by reason of common sense as the Emperor and ultimate authority over his people he established Christianity as the *national* faith.

    Both because it was what he considered best for the people and best for the future of his empire.

    As I said my train of thought and this subject is lengthy and so unless Mart changes the subject, I will continue in a little while and hopefully wrap my comments up.

  35. Mart De Haan says:

    If you and others have further thoughts…I don’t want to shut the door :-)…

  36. Mart De Haan says:

    What if in the place of a lost nation we are given a world next door that needs to see how to find hope, and life, and love in someone greater than Moses, and in something greater than political ideology and national sentiment?

  37. SFDBWV says:

    Attempting to continue my train of thought I am brought to Deuteronomy 4: 14 and Deuteronomy 6: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

    If we use wisdom connected to knowledge then it seems wise to establish a nation along the guidelines God used in establishing His nation of Israel.

    Every western culture and nation is still an extension of that old Roman Empire, even the countries that once comprised the eastern empire are the remnants of that old Roman empire, with one exception the eastern empire was overthrown by the followers of Mohammad. Christ is not allowed in those countries.

    Every kingdom and nation under the control of the old Holy Roman Empire while eventually returning to their own control continued to keep the faith of Christianity in place and strongly discouraged the worship of any other deity through punishment of death.

    Following the guidelines of Scripture, God instructed that His precepts and rules be taught to the children so that it becomes an instinct in them, as well as instructing to establish those same statutes and judgments in the land that we possess.

    To do otherwise invites failure and the destruction of whatever land and whatever people possess it.

    Kings and Emperors force their will upon those under their authority, but democracies allow for the people to decide for themselves their future as a nation and people.

    Once again I return to Scripture to show me the way, and what does Scripture offer me in a way of deciding for myself what intelligent and wise path it is for people to decide for themselves to follow? Deuteronomy 11: 26, 27, 28 offers a clear view of what it is that we are deciding when we decide for ourselves what pathway to follow, and in Deuteronomy 11: 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 God shows us the rewards and punishment when we do not follow His precepts.

    In Joshua 24: 15 we see that familiar offering that Joshua offers for the people to decide for themselves which choices they make, and in Joshua 24: 16 we see the appropriate reply to such a request.

    If we are to be a democracy then I am a part of that process that decides the direction for my country and as a citizen I am left to make that personal choice and also to influence others to make the *right* choice by accepting God and His blessings not rejecting God and invoking His curses upon my land.

    I have to take a breather; I will try and wrap my comment up in my next post.


  38. poohpity says:

    What if our nation is not of this world? Do we put in as much effort into serving the Kingdom of God or allegiance to God as we do to our country? Allegiance to a country can cause wars and strife but allegiance to God brings His will to where ever we live on this earth even if that is in the middle of an Islamic country in which many Christians find their homes and die for their faith.

  39. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends –

    Mart, you asked:

    “What if in the place of a lost nation we are given a world next door that needs to see how to find hope, and life, and love in someone greater than Moses…”

    In my view, your question exposes the current condition of the fragmentation of all icons in the world. Where in the marketplace do we teach children and others the stories of Scripture – and acquaint folks with the Living God? Are we making disciples? It seems that Israel has descended on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs to a more basic struggle to survive – leaving behind the issues of obedience to God and grace toward neighbors. They seemingly look out upon a world of approaching enemies. I place no blame here, only reflecting the tone of their leadership at present (see Netanyahu at the UN Gen’l Assembly).

    Until the Church comes out of the building and offers itself (Romans 12:1, 2) as a servant to the least and last and lost, we are only taking pot-shots at Jew and Muslim alike. I believe there must be a fresh appeal, since so few anywhere have sought Scriptural holiness in our day.


  40. oneg2dblu says:

    Dear Friends, my extended discourse, or as some would say diatribe, was only brought about by the things I know and love and have protected with my life. Just as any mother with children, she loves them all, so do I love many things passionately.
    I don’t want anyone calling my child a non-Christian because his bus or his country is filled with so many others. I don’t want others calling church a useless fraud today because the masses have a difference of opinion and some live as though they are free to sin every day but on Sunday for a few hours where they parade piously perfected.
    My first love is Christ, my highest love is Christ, but Christ has also allowed many of our other loves to grow more deeply as we grow in Him. My love of children being one I can site here.
    I love to vote the bible on every issue I can, because I love the bible first and I love the freedom to be able to vote.
    I love the principles this nation was founded on and I do believe that God has blessed this Nation as a result of that founding.
    So, if an expression of love is out of context, off topic or beyond the guidelines, I stand convicted.
    I also stand exposed and humbled, knowing that I was allowed to have taken a stand, and that is another love which this nation needs to show the entire world again,
    That is showing them the last verse of the song…
    “Great God, our King!”
    I believe a “Christian Nation” is a nation that has only one Great God our King!
    Thank you Mart for the showing your love of allowing us to express ourselves, and not closing the door of expressing our love, our opinions, our passion, and Our King,Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, in a darkening world that is slowly closing that very door at every turn.
    Here is one place we are blessed to come, and we are blessed when we do. I’ll take a break now and let others express their love. Gary

  41. Bill says:

    @pooh, you wrote (September 27, 2012 at 10:55 am):

    “I still do not know how we refer to the USA as a Christian Nation when there are more non-Christians than there are Christians just because the freedoms we have are founded on the Bible when The Constitution and the The Bill of Rights were drafted. I fully believe that is a misnomer and shows by the majority here.”

    Have you ever studied the origins of the U.S.? The writings of America’s Founding Fathers? The fervency with which they prayed, gave thanks to God? Did you examine the foundational laws of America, which were carried over from England in the form of Blackstone’s Commentaries and based on English Common Law, which was itself based on the wisdom of the Ten Commandments?

    I don’t think America was ever a “Christian nation.” However, there can be no doubt that we were founded by Christians on Christian principles. Our Constitution and Bill of Rights were, I believe, divinely inspired. They are remarkable documents, the likes of which have not been seen before or since. However, their one “flaw” is that they only work if citizens are moral and ethical people, able to govern themselves — hence, people of a religious nature. And the prevailing religion at that time was Christianity.

    It’s entirely arguable that our Constitution and Bill of Rights cannot function any longer because of all the different religions and non-religions currently in the U.S. I seriously doubt our Founding Fathers envisioned an America that we have today. When the people cannot govern themselves, or when they cannot agree on governing principles, our Constitution and Bill of Rights ceases to function. That’s when government has to step in — which we see more of every day.

    I’ve studied this very topic for some 30 years. So I’m not pulling this information out of thin air. However, that’s all I’ll say about it here.

    @Steve, et al, I don’t believe this topic is a slippery slope — any more than any topic is. Which is to say every time we post comments based on our opinions we are in danger of someone taking offense or taking our comments in a new direction. All topics are “slopes” because we’re human beings capable of reading our own thoughts and emotions into things, posting from the position of being in a bad mood, etc. I’m quite sure we could find slopes everywhere if we looked hard enough.

    So, you’re right. And not so right. We each make our own slopes. :)

    @Mart, et al, it’s not possible to omit “political ideology and national sentiment” from our lives. We are steeped in it 24/7. Everywhere we look — on TV, in printed media, online, in conversations — we are subjected to political ideology and national sentiment. If not ours, then those of other nations.

    It’s there when we open our Bibles, too.

    Let’s be honest. The Bible is all about political ideology and national sentiment. The Old Testament, especially. How many times did God tell people to wipe out this village or that one, to keep the Jewish people apart from other nations, etc. War is rampant in the Old Testament. And it was always based on political ideology or national sentiment.

    Politics was part and parcel of the New Testament, as well. Jesus was crucified because of political and religious reasons — the Jewish leaders hated and were jealous of his teachings. The Romans wanted to appease the locals and avoid political scandal back home. It was a religious and political quagmire.

    Plus, look at the choice of words used in the Bible, even the New Testament. We are in the KINGDOM of God. Jesus didn’t come to bring peace, but a SWORD. War, war, war. Politics, politics, politics. It’s all there.

    The goal is not to succumb to any one political or religious bias to the detriment to all others. When we draw a line in the sand — as Jesus was wont to do — we make ourselves a target for those who disagree with us. That’s how wars begin.

    I agree with you that we need to find something greater than political ideology and national sentiment. That’s the only way we will survive as a species.

    However, I think the human race has gone beyond that. Look at the events in the Middle East. One particular religion offers some of the most violent, angry, murderous followers on the planet. They hate the West and wish to subjugate it to their belief system.

    How do we find common ground with that ideology? What is “greater” than a sociopolitical amalgamation of religion and politics that seeks world domination?

    Don’t get me wrong. I’d be totally happy without politics. And I’m not advocating any sort of nationalism or American exceptionalism. But no matter what you call it, the world is caught up in a clash of cultures, politics, and religious battles for supremacy. Even if we stand down as a nation, and a people, we will not stop the forces that are marshaled against us.

    Yet, unless we rise above the politics, set aside our personal beliefs, and re-discover the orthopraxy of our faith then I don’t hold out much hope for the human race.

    Again, I’d like to say that the common denominator is love. The radical, powerful, unwavering, selfless love of Jesus. Scripture, the Bible, Christianity, Americanism — none of that will sway the hearts of the world. The world has seen all that before.

    What they want to see is love.

    Dare I say it?

    Love wins.

  42. Bill says:

    @Gary, I didn’t see your comments as a diatribe. On the contrary, you came across as someone with deep love for many things, not least of which is Jesus as Lord. Your feelings are admirable.

    @Maru, this was exceptional well written and wise:

    “Until the Church comes out of the building and offers itself (Romans 12:1, 2) as a servant to the least and last and lost, we are only taking pot-shots at Jew and Muslim alike. I believe there must be a fresh appeal, since so few anywhere have sought Scriptural holiness in our day.”

    I, too, believe that. I don’t believe the Church has been the Church in a long, long time. Maybe it’s never really been the Church. I don’t see us demonstrating the love of Jesus the way Jesus showed us how to demonstrate it. Until we do, I’m afraid the world won’t pay attention to us.

    @Steve, I hope we never become a democracy. I hope we remain a Constitutional Republic, a nation of laws and not men.

    By the way, you’re exceptionally clear-thinking in this thread. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. They’re always a pleasure to read.

    @His Sparrow, you wrote:

    “I stand with Israel for her right to exist, in the place given by God. I also believe what God says in the Bible about the things to come and that He wants us to be ready for His return at anytime.”


  43. poohpity says:

    Bill, I went to High School and even graduated. I even graduated from College, go figure. Learning about our country was part of the curriculum as well as part of my curiosity. Just like I read the Bible because I love God, I have read about my country because I like where I live. I even read bills that go before the House and Senate and call my representatives and tell them how I would like them to vote whether it does any good or not I participate in the process. Rather than listening to the news I watch CSPAN to see what is really happening. I am pretty active in our democracy because I care and like to be involved. Just like being actively involved with the Lord not a arm chair quarterback.

  44. SFDBWV says:

    As the world we know today began to take shape, it was the lesser powers and off shoots of that old Holy Roman Empire that helped to form the maps we recognize today.

    These powers and their peoples brought more than their language and customs into the *new* world, but as seemed appropriate to them, also brought their faith along with them, following again the example of Scripture they destroyed the religions of all those they conquered as did Israel in the conquest of the Holy Land in full concert with the will of God; punished if they (Israel) did not.

    It would seem that people and so their leaders today either reject the entire Books of the OT or re interpret them to a more modern approach of looking at right and wrong good and bad and how better to govern themselves rather than adopting any of this old religious *nonsense*.

    The fact is after the return of Jesus and the beginning of the *millennium* there are still other nations on the planet and they will be governed and apparently able to make choices with the full free will concept. The only difference being that all nations of the earth at that time will be *Christian* nations.

    If you read any of the books written by the founder of the Watchtower Society you will read that they believe the *end* began with World War I. Whereas I do not accept their particular brand of theology, I have to admit I too see the rapid demise of Christianity in the world beginning from this point forward.

    WWI and WWII set the maps of today’s world and WWIII will bring the return of Christ.

    I am offended when people say that America is not a Christian nation, because I see it as one that was founded to be one.

    I am equally offended when I am chastised for standing up for my nation.

    However I am very pleased to be chastised when I stand up for Christ, because I enjoy offending those who are offended by my Lord.

    However it has become accepted in the world we live in to say whatever we want bad about Christianity and to join in the world’s hatred of the USA.

    Even to the point of having a President who feels it necessary to go around the globe apologizing for the USA and making our enemies smile when he say’s we are no longer a Christian Nation.

    It is one of those things that make me feel that the rapture is very close as I see very clear lines being drawn between choosing to follow God and His blessings or rejecting Him and accepting the coming curse of judgment.

    I see the USA devoid of people who will make a stand for the nation of Israel and little Israel will then indeed stand alone against her enemies. America devoid of Israel’s allies because they along with the Holy Spirit are taken out of the way and allowing for the coming evil to win out over God’s people.

    Jesus mourned for Jerusalem, knowing the results of rejecting Him, and I mourn for my country and its inhabitants for the same reason.

    It is not with joy that I can say I believe the end is near, but with great sadness, though God will turn my grief to joy and wipe away all tears still it is through a doorway of coming judgment.


  45. His Sparrow says:


    I love the Lord, my God with all of me.
    I love Jesus as He loved me, I just fall short.
    I love my neighbors as myself.
    In that order…
    I love chocolate, French fries, coffee and other vegetables…but not the same way as the first three loves :)

    @Bill- would you please clarify your application/definition of the word “orthopraxy?” Thank you.

    The history of the U.S.?

    Uh, I recall all the Americas had existing citizens long before the “Europeans” (not limited to Spain, Portugal, France, England, Russia) sailed over. They claimed it for their kings (etc.) and defrauded the Native Americans of their property (land, natural resources, their identity, their “God given rights” to say the least…)

    Far as I know, the Native Americans have yet to file a “quitclaim” on the continent.

    The hunt for gold especially and the fountain of youth was the justification for human slaughter, in the name of God. Eeew.

    I’ll stop now on this part because I feel my blood pressure rising fast.
    I can be angry, just not sin about it.

    I also mostly understand that the reason God had the Israelites “wipe out” other people was due to the evil doing – the other gods they worshipped, their evil behavior and their rejection of God. I didn’t interpret the “wipe out” was to keep the Israelites/Jewish people/Hebrews separated that way. If you want scripture quotes, I’m o.k. with that, just say so.

    The question about poohpity studying U.S. history reads awkward to me.

    Was it posed sarcastically or just because you’ve spent 30 years studying…? What sources of study? Just asking. I suppose just writing this will be an upset.

    I seem to recall poohpity has an extensive education–makes me look like a kindeegardener– a family history that includes Native Americans, alotta life experience; and, I know from my experience she is very gracious and has a heart for God to lift people up.

    Go for it.

    His Sparrow

  46. phpatato says:

    His Sparrow

    If my suspicion is right on who Bill is, please believe me when I say, he would not direct anything at anybody that was sarcastic, unkind or nasty. I reread what he posted and I think his 30 years of study was simply a matter of fact – not boasting or vain. He believes what he says and I am thinking he practices what he preaches (or tries hard to). Luke 10:27

    It’s just a suspicion mind you of who he is……

  47. His Sparrow says:

    Hi phpatato

    Thank you for your response.

    I wasn’t tracking toward him boasting, I picked something as “safe” as possible to ask because I can’t hear or see people, or even know where or who they are, only to the extent they reveal themselves here. And it doesn’t really matter who he is, we’re kinda here for interaction, exchange, etc.; hope that’s O.K.

    So I chose not to say it was mean or something worse just asking for some perspective and clarification on his point. I do believe he has the experience and maturity to answer me without receiving my questions as a personal attack or getting upset.

    What if I had just typed:
    “Whadya mean 30 years?”

    Even that has some spines on it, doesn’t it?

    To study a thing for thirty years is nothing to pass over lightly-I’d like to know more.

    The prayer like the one of this topic has been going on for thirty years and more. Neither is IT something to be taken lightly.

    I am a little bit better acquainted with a few of the commenters here; I am still getting to know others, like Bill, and it takes time and sometimes I have to poke my nose out of neutral in an attempt to make sure I understand what is being conveyed and maybe why.

    We all fall short of the Glory of God and I’m quite possibly near the front of the line, or the back, depending on one’s perspective.

    His Sparrow

  48. kingdomkid7 says:

    There is so much good to be said for this discussion, I don’t know where to jump in. Forgive me if I ramble! But I do want to add a voice on one thing: I guess I will just say that some of us folks recall a time when the question wasn’t even asked about whether this country is “Christian” or not. It was simply a given that the Judeo-Christian ethic was at its foundation. No one questioned it or resented it. So, I’m wondering why anyone asks it now. This is rhetorical of course. The question is being asked in some misguided vision of “religious inclusiveness.” I hope that’s not inflammatory, but I do think efforts are underway in this country to erase the truth in the name of political correctness. Those efforts are futile, I think. We can’t change where or how we were born (in the natural, ie.). I think the same may be true for the country. Our history is what it is. Yes, there were native people here already (some of them were my ancestors), and yes there were atrocities committed against them and others who were enslaved (also some of whom were my ancestors) Some of these wrongs have been remediated; negative effects still linger. But our country’s history is not our future — and we shouldn’t get stuck in it or discount it. We have the world’s oldest continuously in operation written constitution. It really works. Developing nations borrow from it.
    If God has blessed this country mightily, and He has, why can’t we just say it anymore? Is it gratitude or nationalistic pride to say “thank you God” for what you’ve done for us? For the record, many of my family members are converts to Islam. They are Sunnis and the oldest ones among them have been Muslim for over 40 years. So I’ve seen much about Islam “up close and personal.” Perhaps because of that — More than ever, I am convinced that we need to stand, stand up for the gospel of Jesus Christ. If we don’t, we will see the tire tracks of a false religion on our backs. And we won’t understand how it happened. So I’m just saying we need to pray for our country. That is my main point.

  49. Bill says:

    Hi Y’all,

    I most assuredly can tell you that I meant no malice or sarcasm. I merely asked pooh a question. Then I wrote that I’ve spent a good chunk of my life studying the subject.

    I don’t know pooh’s background. Just as you don’t know mine. Asking questions and relaying information is the way people get to know one another, like if we were just introduced at an early-morning Bible study. No one’s character was impugned, especially not pooh’s. It’s easy to see that pooh has a heart for people and is a compassionate person.

    Please don’t read negativity or disrespect into what I wrote then, or will write in the future. That’s not how I roll. I meant no harm. But I do sincerely apologize for offending anyone. (Thank you, php. I appreciate the vote of confidence.)

    America’s start is what it is. We can’t change it. We can only discuss it, academically as it were. It’s not healthy to hold onto wrongs committed — especially wrongs committed over three to four centuries ago.

    Orthopraxy, Sparrow, is the yang to orthodoxy’s yin. It is right action to orthodoxy’s right belief. Orthodoxy is what the so-called Emergent Church prides itself on — praxis. Action. That’s one of the things I like about the Emergent Church. I just started studying that subject (the Emergent Church). So I haven’t yet discovered any flaws or downsides.

    Have a great evening/weekend, everyone!


  50. Bill says:

    @kingdomkid7, you wrote:

    “I guess I will just say that some of us folks recall a time when the question wasn’t even asked about whether this country is ‘Christian’ or not. It was simply a given that the Judeo-Christian ethic was at its foundation. No one questioned it or resented it. So, I’m wondering why anyone asks it now.”

    That’s an astute observation. The late Dr. Francis A. Schaeffer wrote about this in his books “How Should We Then Live?” and “A Christian Manifesto.”

    A hundred years ago, Schaeffer would say, no one had to ask if we were a Christian nation or we weren’t. Society was permeated with a Judeo-Christian belief system. It was accepted, a given. Over the ensuing decades, as America cast off its biblical moorings, as people of other religions began to settle in America, some began to question our laws, system of government, and our beliefs as a whole.

    Political correctness plays a large role in what we see around us today. But, the underpinnings of political correctness are liberalism and a thinly veiled animosity toward Christianity. Both seek to marginalize the Bible, Christianity, and Christians.

    You wrote:

    “I am convinced that we need to stand, stand up for the gospel of Jesus Christ. If we don’t, we will see the tire tracks of a false religion on our backs. And we won’t understand how it happened. So I’m just saying we need to pray for our country. That is my main point.”

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts, kingdomkid. I believe you are spot on.

  51. kingdomkid7 says:

    Thanks, Bill. I think our posts crossed. We totally agree on history and how to look at it.

  52. His Sparrow says:

    Hi Bill

    Thank you for your response.

    Is orthodoxy-right belief (alleged right belief) and

    orthopraxy-right action (alleged to be good)

    synonymous with

    orthodoxy-correct belief … and
    orthopraxy-correct behavior

    and are they both value judgements?

    Thank you.

    His Sparrow

  53. His Sparrow says:


    What is the Emergent Church?

  54. His Sparrow says:

    Hi Bill

    Okay, so does Luke 19 1-19 (KJ) –
    Zaccaeus, chief among the publicans demonstrate the orthopraxy of orthodoxy when his household receives Salvation and says (V8)

    “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any men by false accusation, I restore him four-fold.”

    Meaning, a correct belief (atonement) followed by a correct behavior? (His charity and returning what he (got illegally?) with interest.) Self examination and repentance.

    Thanks again.

    His Sparrow

  55. phpatato says:

    I love you Sparrow! I love the way you think, the way you talk. Someday I will give you a big hug!!!

    You by no means are at the front of the line – or the tail end – because according to my perspective, I’m there! But if you feel you are too, I’m loving the company next to me! :-)


  56. phpatato says:

    Of course my last statement was in direct response to yours His Sparrow:

    “We all fall short of the Glory of God and I’m quite possibly near the front of the line, or the back, depending on one’s perspective”.

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