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Politically Correct?

DSC01102In reading over the conversation about the last post, I’ll admit that I too have been bothered by what Solomon writes in Ecclesiastes. Am thinking there are some of us who would rather that our daughters or wives not hear Solomon saying,  “This is my conclusion,” says the Teacher. “I discovered this after looking at the matter from every possible angle. Though I have searched repeatedly, I have not found what I was looking for. Only one out of a thousand men is virtuous, but not one woman! But I did find this: God created people to be virtuous, but they have each turned to follow their own downward path”  (Ecc 7:27-29).

To this example don’t we also wonder how the Scripture can  say that it is better to live on a housetop or in the wilderness than with a contentious wife (Prov 21:9; Prov 21:19)—without adding similar proverbs acknowledging  that it would be better to live alone than with an angry, self-centered, or abusive husband.

On the other hand,  there is the warning to go from the presence of an angry man (Prov 22:24). And Solomon’s own backstory is a matter of record  (1Kings 11:1-9).

Who can deny that we see our world not only as it is, but as we are.

Thankfully, we are  talking about excerpts  of a bigger story that begins and ends far better than the self-revealing wisdom and foolishness it records along the way.

Yet, given the way the Bible has usually been used, taught, pieced out, and parted, don’t you wonder why  women seem more inclined than men to embrace its vision and Christ?

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90 Responses to “Politically Correct?”

  1. SFDBWV says:

    Let me begin with addressing Mart’s Scripture references; if you have ever lived with a contentious wife you would agree and relate to the verses found in Proverbs 21:9, 19.

    Or as Mart has explained, if you are a woman and lived with an angry, abusive self centered man, it would be best to live apart and alone from such a man.

    The key here is that there are two types of people one being the type best to avoid, one a man the other a woman, neither having a monopoly on being abusive, angry and unpleasant, the other victims of such unpleasantness and again genderless.

    These are just facts that the Bible has expressed and that we can agree with and see as good advice.

    I wonder why Mart believes that women embrace the Bible and Christ above men?

    On the outset I don’t have the numbers of people worldwide who are Christian and don’t have the numbers to present either in agreement or disagreement, but I don’t understand why Mart would make such a statement.

    Unless he is not comparing Christian men against Christian women, but rather Christianity against other religions.

    Christianity gives women a better place of being far above the other two religions from the calling of Abraham.

    The worst for women being Islam.


  2. BruceC says:

    I have never thought of that Mart; why women seem more inclined to come to the Lord.
    Could it be because of the way women have been treated down through history? And upon seeing how Christ treated them He has more appeal for them?
    Or could it be that men have more pride, more arrogance, more ego to feed? More stubborn and unbendable. Less inclined to accept peace than a woman? I don’t know. From what I have seen in life women have a more admirable quality of humility than men. Most women that is. When I see qualities in a woman that I would expect to see more in a man it is more grating upon me. For instance pride and arrogance. Greed and selfishness is another I guess. I would expect to see more of those traits in a man I guess. I think a woman of humility wields influence and power more than one who points the finger to herself.
    When I look at the Apostles before the Resurrection and Pentecost I see much of what you would expect in a man.
    Men have a tendency to be like the song “I Did It My Way”.
    Of course we all are fallen and have our bad traits; so don’t you sisters in Christ let your heads get too big!

    Soli Deo Gloria!

  3. remarutho says:

    Good Morning BTA Friends —

    The way the Scriptures have been used is always determined by the “party” gathered around the scroll/codex/book. We look back to the first century and critique the parties: Essene, Pharisee, Sadducee, party of the circumcision, Nicolaitans, Gnostics…and the evangelical, apostolic movement (Peter, Paul, Gospel writers — the original twelve).

    Not sure I could list all the parties or theologies of the 21st c. There has been an immense fractioning out — further and further split until, I suppose we may begin to coalesce once more. (?) Feminist, liberation and other political parties are still interpreting the Bible, along with all the rest.

    In my humble opinion, there emerges a Way from reading the Scriptures in community that leads members of the community to become agents of Christ’s Kingdom. No “system” of interpretation emerges from honest, prayerful reading of Scripture together. Reading the gospels in Nairobi yields a plan for sharing Jesus — so in Ankara, Indianapolis or London.

    I remain unconvinced that gender matters in embracing a Biblical world-view and Jesus as Savior, (Galatians 3:28) and stand on Christ’s model for treatment of women. Jesus loves everybody. Women will eventually outlive the “patriarchal history” of Bible interpretation.


  4. swwagner says:

    Difficult people, men or women, can make life miserable for their families. In most cases that I have observed, the more compliant mate tries to get along and keep the difficult mate from getting upset…but, it becomes an impossible job. I do think it is wise for people to live apart from difficult people so that you don’t lose your own sanity. Who can serve the Lord when they have to babysit a mate who refuses to “grow-up”.

    As for women being more sensitive to spiritual things, I don’t know the statistics either. I know a few men who long to follow the Lord more than they do, but are held back by a difficult wife. However, I know more women that are held back by difficult husbands.

    To me, women as a whole are a little more sensitive to pick up on the attitudes and needs of those around them because they are made by God to be nurturers and the bearer of children. To me, men as a whole are more tough physically and emotionally because they are made by God to be protectors and providers.

    OF COURSE, these are generalizations…we all know many situations that are the opposite. Please, don’t take offense. These are just observations not facts by any means.

  5. SFDBWV says:

    Sheryl I had started two or three comments before I settled on the one I posted. One of the directions I had begun was right along with your thoughts.

    Many years ago while working with a fellow coal miner deep underground, he and I were talking about these matters and I quoted the afore mentioned quote from Ecclesiastes 7.

    His response was very insightful, he said “yes women seem to be more emotional and so sometimes look foolish”. Not that they are foolish, but look foolish to the no nonsense all work and no play attitude some men have.

    I agree with Maru in that in Jesus, gender has no difference.

    Yet because we live in a world of men and women, we are given direction from God as to how we are to relate to each as man and wife. Not so much as man and woman, except for the fact men are physically stronger then women and so should be more gentle in that relationship.

    Like everything good, people soon spoil it by their own self serving attitudes and there is no gender monopoly there.

    36 degrees and overcast this morning. I am hoping Sheryl that you got some good rain out of the recent weather that devastated parts of Colorado.


  6. BruceC says:

    God has His reasons for making us different and it is wonderful to see those differences coming together and working as the Body of Christ for His glory.

    Soli Deo Gloria!

  7. fadingman says:

    In Ecclesiastes, Solomon have give witness to what he experienced. He didn’t say there is only one virtuous man out of a thousand and no virtuous women. He only said this is what he has found in his experience.

    As a man, he knew about living with wives. He didn’t know about living with husbands. So, we wrote about what he knew from experience.

    His point is that real virtue is rare, not that men have a slight edge on that quality.



  8. fadingman says:

    (…and I’m not normally a stutterer!)

  9. swwagner says:


    I agree. Like Solomon, my comments are based on what I know and have observed. My constant prayer is to step outside myself and see issues from other perspectives and to walk in the shoes of others (at least in my mind)in order to understand better.

  10. Artle says:

    Women are better listeners.

  11. plumbape says:

    Good morning, dog got me up at 9:00 A.M. and that’s what time he went to bed. Me about 12:30 and had to take 2 pills that would put a horse to sleep probably.
    Tears come to my eyes in thinking about my wife ( who God has graciously given another chance ), but I tried talking with her about Jesus just wants some of your time, turn off that T.V. and talk to him, he is right here in the room, stop buying so much junk food, walk the little beagle male dog we got for exercise! It was one thing after another. My daughter got the dog from a friend while going to Purdue, said he looked like an old man as a pup so I named him Moses! I was either not saying it in a right way or preaching and I was willing to do and did all the things I ask plus work on cars for our kids or ours and go do work for my friend the Landlord to pay rent as well as doing plumbing to make money, while doing all of it with a humble heart to the best of my ability. Thanking Jesus for it all, who blessed me with good abilities that I blessed others with. But I was, as it turned out trying to do to much, getting in the way of what he was about to do. Now she does not have a chance and has surly been humbled.
    There is no Jew or Gentile in God’s eyes. I like the book of James more and more, ” you say you have faith with no works, and I will show my faith by my works”. Don’t quote me on that and can’t remember the chapter or verse, lately I miss spell my name, lol. My wife signed a paper for me earlier and she wrote her maiden name! I kindly said ” Now Sharon how long has it been since you used that name”. She said Oh duh scratched it out and wrote Holt but added a Y on the end of Ann”. I said there you go and threw the paper away later.
    Like others living in big cities you meet a lot of types and it’s not just the one sex, race or age. It’s people the bible uses man a lot and sometimes she but it was a bit different in the first century and through the dark ages. Christian Crusades and so on but the bible remains the answer to all the questions. Just have to seek the Lord and ask questions while also praying for people. The Holy Spirit will speak to God for us knowing our hearts! That’s a great thing for those of us that have the love of Jesus in our hearts, amen!

  12. plumbape says:

    p.s. not so great at the punctuations and all that anymore either! Getting older or some prefer getting more mature has it’s ups and downs, lol

  13. poohpity says:

    There is no gender when it comes to following the Lord. There are those who do and those who don’t. It seems when we die to self there is no longer the need to elevate one gender, nationality, race, class or economic status over another or to find fault. We are united in our beliefs, mission and purpose and that is to bring Glory to the name of the Lord. If we are still trying to one up each other then that heart does not seem to understand what following and knowing the Lord is all about, yet!

    Each person is given a gift to serve the body and if one is always trying to be the head then Christ has not taken His rightful place in their life. They are not enjoying living under the shadow of His wings. Living in the shadows is the rightful place of a servant. No one can lead when they have yet learned to follow.

    Anyone can force another to be submissive(subjugation) but to be submissive to One who deserves our respect, reverence and praise anyone will know they have no right to lead only to follow after all we are sheep who need a shepherd.

    It is just hard for any human being to lay aside their desire to be all that and allow God to have His rightful place because of ego or the opposite, being a victim. There is only level ground at the foot of the Cross and none of us deserves what He did and we all have faults so embrace grace and give it to others.

    The politically correct way to look at this is “we all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God”.

  14. poohpity says:

    Many people have “used” the bible by parting it out and piecing parts together to prove a point or to bash someone and those types usually go on the assumption or the fact that the Bible is the least read book even among Christians and shows that it is not really read by the person who “uses” it like that. I wonder how God will deal with that person or those persons for misrepresenting what He has given us to know Him? They “use” it for all the wrong reasons.

    I do not think it differs for man or woman the reason they embrace it’s vision or Christ. Is it not the same reason for all? Forgiveness and restoration. Some just seem to think they do not have that much to be forgiven for and those who realize they have much to be forgiven for. Is that not what determines the level of devotion to our Lord, not gender?

  15. belleu says:

    I looked on the net for facts about there being more women believers than men. I found: “After gleaning over its 2008 U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, the Pew Forum found that women are more religious than men on a variety of measures.” They surveyed over 35,000 people.

    It may be that women feel and admit they need help easier than men. I know my husband doesn’t like asking anyone for help. The women in my family don’t mind asking each other for help. I feel a great need for God’s help in my life and always have. When I held my first-born in my arms, I asked for God’s help. It seemed a huge responsibility to raise a child. Men seem to have have more self-confidence than women.

  16. Artle says:

    bellue, I think your thoughts are on to something. The proverbial image (I am guilty) is of the man driving for miles before stopping and asking for directions (before my self-confidence runs out).

  17. bubbles says:

    I think many men have a struggle with ego and control.

  18. Artle says:

    I imagine there is something about the original text that does not render well into English, because Ecclesiastes 7:27 really does not make sense in any of the literal translations. The paraphrased version quoted reads well, but is also the most derisive translation and does not leave much doubt to meaning; a meaning which in my mind was not the intent of the scripture because it makes a statement that is not supported elsewhere that I am aware.

  19. Artle says:

    The differences between men and women are meant to be complimentary. The complimentary plan (Genesis 2:24 NASB) works well, I imagine, if both halves are of the same mind & heart, for our purposes, both Christian. The plan does not work well if both halves have different minds and hearts, which seems to be more the reality of the world. Someone said, “Sympathy is two hearts tugging at one load”. I’d say there is definitely not enough of the two heart tugging going on in the marriages of today. Is it because we the people, the men and women, don’t do as we should, or is it beyond our control? WARNING: That was a trick question.

    We can look at the world and wish it were something it will never be, or we can look at Christ and see the Kingdom he has to offer. When I say something like this is it inspirational or does it just sound like empty words?

  20. poohpity says:

    I would lean toward inspirational. :-)

  21. Artle says:

    Per bubbles comment: I have an overabundance of both ego and control freak type brain functions. I try to offset both with healthy doses of humility and gentleness, but I know sometimes the predominant warrior instinct won’t let the others show. Comes in handy though when protecting somebody, which is why I have those instincts. It’s only been in the last few hundred years, of the thousands of my existence, that I have not had to fight off vicious men and/or beasts. More or less have the vicious beasts under control, but the warfare amongst mankind seems to be a mainstay.

    Glad I have tickets for His Kingdom and I am fairly certain there are more seats available.

  22. SFDBWV says:

    We live in a pre-apocalyptic world were good is bad and bad is cool,

    As we get nearer and nearer to that hour when God say’s “enough” the world just gets more and more confusing.

    One thing that is always “politically correct” “in fashion” and never goes out of “vogue” is *men bashing*.

    As I stated earlier on the previous topic, what upsets me is that the *politically correct police* want to silence everyone and anything that doesn’t meet *their* standards of social acceptance.

    One of the big thorns in the side of these feminists is the Bible and like bad weather they keep trying to erode away any wording that they don’t like or want others to read or hear.

    The Bible is and remains under attack by even the very people who have been feeding from it, the things in it they don’t like the taste of they want to throw out as if garbage.

    There are a lot of things found in the Scripture that is unpleasant to read, but we don’t remove it or change its meaning we face them, learn from them and grow in our understanding of our place with God.

    Look to history and you find like Solomon also said there is nothing new under the sun.

    In more recent history once the Normans over powered the Saxons it was improper to use Saxon words and so the terms *bad or improper* language became part of our use of English.

    I for one have had *enough* of the politically correct police* telling me I can’t say certain things they don’t want heard, or attempting to remove or change the words of Scripture to make it say what they want.

    33 degrees this morning under a blanket of fog, frost for sure up out of it.


  23. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All —

    Steve — nice rant, Brother! You wrote:
    “I for one have had *enough* of the politically correct *police* telling me I can’t say certain things they don’t want heard, or attempting to remove or change the words of Scripture to make it say what they want.”

    It may very well be that the swelling counter-wave to the “political correctness police” is not direct resistance. Like the Roman Empire, the feel-good culture will collapse inwardly because the seeds of destruction are already sprouting in the heart of it. It will perish at the very pace it believes it has succeeded in “eliminating” the Creator God.

    It is through the joy of the Lord that you are strengthened to share your life-giving faith in Christ. What are they going to threaten you with, heaven?


  24. SFDBWV says:

    Good morning Maru, Yes my little “rant” felt appropriate and satisfied my apatite to write this morning. However I am not so much threatened by the political mood of the world, as I am disgusted with it.

    I would agree that the fall of the Roman Empire came about as a result of moral decay and the loss of vision as a people. Another *pearl* from the Word of God found in Proverbs 29:18 tells us how important it is to both be moral and plan ahead.

    As God is not threatened by the amoral behavior of mankind, rather at odds with it, so it is for me.

    I can be polite, but not silenced, I can be sensitive by being compassionate, and aggressive when the need is presented; another pearl from Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 tells me there is an appropriate time for nearly everything.

    I liked what you had said about Solomon being world weary and so presenting Ecclesiastes in that frame of mind.

    So believing Ecclesiastes to be the Word of God I then must also see the nature of God reflected in its content.

    Like Solomon I too grow weary of the evil I see growing in the world and around us, polluting and ruining every good thing that is. Dismantling the work of generations that made life better and good for us all. All in the name of being politically correct and smugly labeling me because I don’t agree with them.

    Knowing I possess salvation and heaven doesn’t quell or silence the disgust I see in the evil of this world, it will always be seen as it is to me and only when erased from the earth, even the memory of it, will I be able to sigh in relief and say good riddance.


  25. poohpity says:

    We need only be disgusted with the evil found in our own heart and let God take care of the rest for those who trust in Him. Evil, hatred and anger just beget(bigoted) evil, hatred and anger.

  26. remarutho says:

    Actual, honest debate does not produce a “winner” when the question is: “Is there a God?” Debate points for logic or persuasiveness cannot get at the ground of reality. At the end of such a “show” the believers and non-believers remain just as they are, it seems to me.

    Mart asserts, if I understand his words:
    “Who can deny that we see our world not only as it is, but as we are,” that our perceptions, words, actions and interactions with non-believers (hostile and friendly) have an actual effect. I believe the community of faith impacts the surrounding society.

    As we emulate Jesus, something is going on we may or may not perceive. (John 13:34, 35) The world may say that this is a group-think delusion, but the Holy Spirit is in the midst — working in ways that transform hearts and minds.

    Who isn’t world-weary?

    An Easterner was riding with a rancher across a blistering, dusty stretch of road in West Texas. Suddenly a large bird ran across their path. The stranger asked, “What was that bird?” The rancher replied, “That was a bird of paradise.”

    They rode on in silence a while. The man from the East said, “Long way from home, isn’t it?”

    Are we sojourners here? Or are we doomed to be of the world? Our take on issues and challenges makes a difference in the marketplace, I think.


  27. poohpity says:

    I did not read where anyone was bashing men. What I read was women sharing their experiences of them in their lives. There is a big difference. The experiences of husbands and dads that negatively impacted the lives of the women who they were called to protect and treat as Christ looks after His body. Mart, I agree it is a wonder that women have come to trust Christ after some folks take pieces and parts out of the Bible to subjugate and domineer over them.

  28. poohpity says:

    I also agree we see the world around us “as we are” and sometimes that is not how it really is but the evil intent found in our own hearts is what we see in others and in the world. Romans 2:1 NIV

  29. poohpity says:

    Mart, I think the reason why more women than men come to the Lord is because of the many examples we have of those who were oppressed and God increased their numbers. We have the examples of the Hebrews in Egypt and the Christians in the first century church although oppressed and persecuted their numbers grew. That is another example of the topise turvy things with God like returning good for hatred and evil or loving enemies. God’s ways are not our ways unless we make a choice to make them ours as well.

  30. BruceC says:

    I am going to go off topic for this post and ask for prayer for a friend named Warren; a brother in Christ who put his faith in Jesus at the age of 75. He was baptized at our church picnic. He is in the hospital in bad shape with numerous problems. He is on dialysis and has many other serious issues. Please pray for him. I visited him a short while ago.

    Soli Deo Gloria!

  31. oneg2dblu says:

    Good day all… I’m not going to get into any bible bashing assumptions, leave that for those who have their own thoughts about them.

    Now for the other police issue at hand, those who are politically correcting the world and the church, they are not ever going to use any godly or biblical standard which they already chose to reject, over any societal view which is both deceptive and collectively preferred as being a much different and better standard.

    Should the current P C quelling of the masses, or the silence of evil that P C brings with it, be seen by us in the church as being part of the very evil in the world where we now live?

    To me, if one possesses the Holy Spirit which can not be deceived and sees evil as evil, then, if we follow that Spirit, we will not also see evil as evil?

  32. Artle says:

    Correction: In my comment at 7:40pm yesterday, it is verse 8 that is least clear to me.

    Prayin’ for Warren and living with Jesus. (Philippians 4:4-7 NASB), in a positive way (Philippians 4:8-9 NASB)

  33. Artle says:

    Can’t seem to get it right, verse 28 is least clear.

  34. phpatato says:

    Steve you said:

    “Like Solomon I too grow weary of the evil I see growing in the world and around us, polluting and ruining every good thing that is. Dismantling the work of generations that made life better and good for us all. All in the name of being politically correct and smugly labeling me because I don’t agree with them.

    Knowing I possess salvation and heaven doesn’t quell or silence the disgust I see in the evil of this world, it will always be seen as it is to me and only when erased from the earth, even the memory of it, will I be able to sigh in relief and say good riddance.”

    Look beside you dear brother because I am walking right with you on that. I too am weary of what this world is force-feeding us in the name of political correctness and to a point, tolerance. Count me as one who refuses to say happy holidays. It will always be Merry Christmas to me. I will also balk the feminist movement without blinking an eye. My Bible refers to God as HE not she. My Bible says in 1 Corinthians 11:3 – But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God. I have no problem with that verse or others such as that one which is frowned upon by women in this day and age.

    Call me a rebel I guess.

    Have a great day everyone


  35. remarutho says:

    Romans 12:19, 20, 21

  36. poohpity says:

    I am also lifting up Warren in prayer.

    I think if we look at the Book of Ecclesiastes as it is written we will find that this very wise man shows us ALL that without God life has no meaning or purpose. He allowed himself to search knowledge, pleasures, adventures and nothing did he withhold from himself(pure selfishness) and it all had nothing that truly brought him satisfaction apart from God. Hopefully we can learn from his wisdom and not get sucked into a few verses that demean women. Like using Genesis to blame a woman for the fall and all the other thoughtless uses of scripture to show a mans superiority over women mentality, one religion over another or one race over another. I feel sad seeing the divisiveness that lingers in the heart untouched by the Spirit of God that brings unity. Eph 4:4-6 NIV

  37. poohpity says:

    Pat, I do not think any women would find problems with what is written in Corinthians because if Christ were the head then there would be no mistreatment of women or women of men. No oppression, subjugation or domineering. There would be a willing submission to one who is willing to lay down their life for the one loved.

  38. cbrown says:

    The futility that King Solomon experienced due to his disobedience was corrected by God when God allowed his Son to pay for the sins of the whole world. Jesus obeyed at the time prophesied and Jesus said it is finished. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines in direct disobedience to God further he worshipped many false Gods.I believe that he was looked up to by the women and men of that time for having so many and was not alone in his disobedience. Praise God that has sent our Redeemer!

  39. remarutho says:

    Lifting up prayers for Warren’s journey home this morning. How glad I am that he has accepted Jesus and given the outward sign of baptism. May the Lord give him abundant assurance in the time remaining — and pure joy when he enters his unveiled presence.


  40. oneg2dblu says:

    I agree pooh… (If,) Christ were the head of all man’s thoughts and all actions represented those thoughts, then, there would be no problems in the church, or the world.
    But, P C alone does not put Christ first, or at the head, it puts only the desires of society in charge, or first place.
    It does however, but many against the Word of God, and the Christ of the bible which is to be at the head is silenced.
    Christ himself says that He came to divide, so there must be division if Christ is at the head.
    There must be both wheat and tare, darkness and light, good and evil, and He alone will separate them from each other.
    So, everything is all working for the good of those who lovw Him.
    That is, according to the Word of God that I choose to pick apart, jus to make a point.


  41. narrowpathseeker says:

    Pat, call me your “rebel” sister….because I TOTALY agree with you and Steve as well.

    I worked in a factory for many years to support my children. I was one of the few women doing what had been considered a man’s job because there was some very heavy work involved. I got 10 cents less than the men, BUT the men ALWAYS stepped up to help me when they saw me struggling to maneuver a heavy load. I would have been more than satisfied to make even a dollar less than the men…BUT, I had nothing to say about the EQUAL pay laws and soon got a 10 cent raise!! With that raise the men were insulted(rightfully so) and stopped helping us. However, because they realized that I would have gladly given up that raise and that I wasn’t into Womens Lib, they resumed the help.

    When extremists take hold of anything it looses anything that might have had some root in good will.

  42. foreverblessed says:

    I would like t add to what Fadingman wrote, that it was the experience of the Preacher, it was him who found no woman in a thousand. And that is very sad for him, as he had a thousand wives. What a pity.
    A friend of mine would laugh at this verse, she said, well the preacher found only one man in thousand, and no woman, so he found that men are 0,1% more virtuous than women.

    But what did Jesus find when He came to earth?
    Matthew 26:7-13,13
    Luke 7:36-38
    His experience was totally different! The men found this action of the women “foolish”. But if you look closer to the anointing it is very very touching: How thankfull these women were for Jesus! How utterly broken they have felt, and how relieved that Jesus could restore them to real life, life everlasting.
    What a great example this is for us, The more I think about it, the more I am touched about the love these women had for Jesus, and I look into my own heart, would I do the same?
    Plumbape, I pray for you and your wife. Looking to Jesus is the best thing you can do, keep doing that, He gives everything you need!

  43. foreverblessed says:

    Prayers for Warren too! Thank God he gave his life to Jesus, even at the end of his life, it doesn’t matter, sometimes illness is a blessing in disguise, it brings us to Jesus!

  44. poohpity says:

    Devotion to the Lord does look foolish to those who find what He taught offensive and it does divide those who follow Him and those who choose not to. His ways are hard for the person who is self sufficient and depend on their natural inclinations.

  45. oneg2dblu says:

    BruceC… Prayers for Warren are going out and being heard by the Only One who can make all the difference.
    Warren’s fate is set, his place at the table secure, his meal prepared. We who know, know that we know, if it is God’s Will, we will all sup together.

  46. phpatato says:


    That is exactly why I don’t have problem with what is written in the Bible regarding woman and her role in God’s plan. When woman rests in the knowledge that her role is “under” man AND that man is to love her as Christ does his church, everything is balanced as it should be according to God’s wisdom. Trouble as I see it is that I don’t think man fully and completely realizes just how much Christ loves His church. If he did, there wouldn’t be an abused, mistreated woman out there and there definitely wouldn’t be the rise of the feminist movement. But, just because man may fail in his God desired role shouldn’t cause woman to fail in hers..two wrongs don’t make it right. Because of our fallen nature, it seems as rare the marriages that have the scale equally balanced as God intended. Most are either heavily weighed in favour of the husband having complete suppression over the wife (I think of Islamic culture) or it is lopsided because the wife has had to step up to become both the husband and wife. The latter is my case. I read a quote from a girl named Candyce who said:

    “I appreciate Jesus’ instructions through Paul as hard as they seem to be able to comply with in our day. I try not to question the teachings as they are but try and appreciate that we do not know everything as our Creator does and that all instructions given are for our own good and to glorify God as opposed to ourselves. Obedience is freedom. Once a woman is freed up to let the men be in charge and lead as God ordained then things start to fall into place. I just started covering my head with scarves and realizing that feminism and all of it’s associated trappings are just that- snares. I pray that Jesus will continue to humble me so that he can be glorified.”

    So I do agree with what you have said to me Deb….if only life would fall into place as God intended then there would be no oppression, subjugation or domineering..or feminist ways of usurping what Scriptures tell us. But life won’t.

  47. Artle says:

    I wonder if it’s more women coming to the faith or simply more women left? The last few churches I have attended seem to have mostly older members and women live longer than men. If you have 5 couples and 1 man goes home, that makes the female/male ratio 56/44 and if 2 go home that leaves a 62.5/37.5 ratio.

  48. Loomis says:

    There is still the phenomenom of a contentious woman. But the principle applied to an abusive man is valid. A home should be safe and peaceful.
    The strength of many women is their faith. My wife has encouraged me many times. Sinful pride is on the rise and men have lost who they are. We need to find ways to increase the faith in men and find strength in loving and leading a godly life.
    In the same way we must continue to fight abuse and neglect all to frequent.

  49. remarutho says:

    Good Afternoon All —

    I thought about it when first reading Mart’s post — the global ratio is 51/49 female to male to start with. Not certain of the exact life expectancy, but women do live longer than men.

    The number of women attending church while their husbands do something else is certainly greater than the number of men attending church while their wives golf, fish, hunt or watch the sports channel. Can think of a half-dozen immediately in my acquaintance.

    Christian congregations tend to be way more than 50% female — except in monasteries. My sense is that congregations tend to be 60% to 70% female (in my country at least). Would have to research much more carefully to discover whether other factors are at work in this phenomenon.


  50. Artle says:

    Thinking back it does seem there were always more women around the church, unless there was food being served :-) or there was work to be done and then the men cam out of the woodwork. :-D.

  51. cbrown says:

    Our town newspaper was doing an article on African American church members in our town and called the pastor of our church to ask how many of our members were African American. To which he replied “none. We do not have African American members or caucasian members. We just have members.” Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is [aj]neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you [ak]belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s [al]descendants, heirs according to promise.

  52. SFDBWV says:

    If one looks at the ratio men to women who participate here on this blog, one can not deny that there are more women then men involved.

    Yet only the program administrator could know how many others look in, read, but not actually have anything to say, and possibly know their gender.

    I don’t think it an actual accounting to say the numbers going to church = the numbers of people who embrace the vision of the Bible and accept Christ.

    God would know those numbers.

    However if you look into it women are more involved than men in tarot reading, palm reading, tea leaf reading, acting as mediums ect.; not that men aren’t also but women are a major majority in those areas as well.

    So what does that prove or mean?


    Men are men and should remain so, and women are women and should remain so, this stupid idea that we are all the same just isn’t ever going to work out.

    So how does this endless discussion about the sexes give Glory to God?

    Let me just agree with Solomon once again “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
    For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.” (Ecclesiastes 1:13, 14.

    I wrote it out because the *new* translation on BTA may be different than my King James, as when I wrote earlier concerning Proverbs 29:18 my King James says “Where there is no vision the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.” I like my version better as it gives an entirely different message.


  53. SFDBWV says:

    Of course it should have came up as Ecclesiastes 11:13, 14.

    Slow finger or computer glitch?


  54. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Steve!

    Ecclesiastes 12:13, 14 — if memory serves.


  55. remarutho says:

    Dear All —

    It seems to me it is simple courtesy to stay with the question our host has posed:

    “Yet, given the way the Bible has usually been used, taught, pieced out, and parted, don’t you wonder why women seem more inclined than men to embrace its vision and Christ?”

    It seems to me both males and females are prone to foolishness. No difference in the sexes on that score!


  56. SFDBWV says:

    Thanks Maru, I needed my glasses and my coffee, I guess.


  57. cbrown says:

    Although male and female are not mentioned below they would be included as in Gal3:28. Put On the New Self
    Colossians 3 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 [a]Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

    5 Therefore [b]consider the members of your earthly body as dead to [c]immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which [d]amounts to idolatry. 6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come [e]upon the sons of disobedience, 7 and in them you also once walked, when you were living [f]in them. 8 But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth. 9 [g]Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old [h]self with its evil practices, 10 and have put on the new self who is being [i]renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him— 11 a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, [j]barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.

  58. foreverblessed says:

    cbrown, thanks for these verses! They say everything that is important to us. I was thinking: The Preacher was not busy with the things of the Spirit
    Set your minds on things above, not on things of the earth.
    The Preacher had been busy with things of the earth, and in such a manner that any of us could only dream of:
    palaces, architecture, garden, horses, men, and a lot of women, a harem even of a thousand.
    All these things are things from the earth.
    And we could learn from him that these things do not make a man (or woman) happy.

    He was a disillusioned man, a deeply depressed man.

    We would do better to head the words: set your mind on things above.
    I would like to add that also the advice about the virtuous woman of Proverbs 31, if it is taken literally, things that have to be done in a household, then it is also a trap,
    I know, because I have used that chaptre literally, and it had become a trap to me: these are all things of the earth!
    Now I know that these household things have to be done, no question about that. But they are not the main goal of a woman’s life:
    She also should look on things above, things from the Kingdom of God.
    And all these things shall be added unto you. Matthew 6:33
    If the woman has her mind fixed on what Jesus wants, then all these things, the household chores will be given to her. It will be made easy for her.

  59. BruceC says:


    I would love to relate to you a story I have about a palm reader/fortune teller that I had to deal with once as a Dep. Sheriff. But that would be way off topic.
    Maybe if we have a humor topic/thread someday.

    Am waiting to hear about Warren; he was supposed to have surgery today.

    Soli Deo Gloria!

  60. SFDBWV says:

    Bruce, I pray Warren has many more days ahead here on earth to share his story. As for the fortuune teller story, just as well tell it this subject needs some humor.


  61. SFDBWV says:

    Just for the sake of telling it, “fortune telling” and the like is not allowed here as the town fathers made it illegal 123 years ago.


  62. poohpity says:

    One can not give scripture to one who does not feel the need to learn about God and His ways, it does no good. It is like casting a beautiful garment in the mud. God’s Word is not to be used to degrade another human being it is to encourage, build up and hopefully point them to God. Using it to show how women have brought ruin to a man and not look at the man’s role in that equation is just pure ugliness and venomous to say the least and says nothing about that both were created in the image of God. Both are the representation of God and need to be treated accordingly. God does not look at one any different than He looks at the other and He does not look or judge on the external but on the heart of mankind and whether that heart loves Him above all else. If that heart loves God above all else then they will love and care for others as well, the same kind of care they do for their own body.

  63. SFDBWV says:

    Matt and I were blessed yesterday by a store clerk as we checked out at the grocery store.

    She told us she remembered us from years ago when she worked at KFC, I told her that was remarkable to remember us from such a long time and she smiled and said “Nice people are easy for her to remember.”

    Matt has talked about that since and how nice she was as well.

    I am taking a little break from yard work, knocking down a summers worth of tall weeds I let grow up above our mowed yard. I had never let them grow before and now I remember why.

    We are enjoying the very first stretch of dry weather since last year sometime, so I will have to make the best of it.

    Bruce, many people who know me and know the life I have lived have told me I should write a book, I agree except I would have to change all the names to protect me or wait until I die to have it published.

    See all tomorrow.


  64. poohpity says:

    I hope you will include a chapter “from” Glenna and what she has lived through to get a more thorough picture. Bless her heart.

  65. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… who gets to determine when scripture should be revealed to another, and when it should be witheld?
    It this something that we decide, or do we just share the word and let it fall where it may, leaving it to the Lord to short out whether it will do any good or not.
    According to the word I’ve read so far, All scripture is useful, and the word of God never returns void.
    There I go again, picking and chosing to make my point.

    I may have missed your point though, but I wonder, can you see mine?
    I say share and share alike, let the chips fall where they may, and trust in the Lord that His work will be done.

  66. Artle says:

    To the point of missing points, the more points I get the more points I realize I miss.


  67. Artle says:

    My being new, I do have difficulty at times following the discussion and tying comments together or keeping them separate however they may have been intended.

    At times it appears someone has jumped to another horse in mid stream, when the more likely scenario is, I did not realize which horse they were riding when they got to the waters edge.

    Usually, I get thoroughly bewildered by rants, but especially when they appear to contain thoughts from a bygone topic.

    So, if any comment of mine seems to not fit, it is probably because it does not. I have missed the point.

  68. poohpity says:

    Gary, I can see your point but that is not what Jesus teaches. He taught if you give holy things to a mind or heart that is not open to learning the things of God not man they will misuse it and abuse it then around and attack you. That is my paraphrase, Jesus was much harsher. You can find it in Matt 7

  69. BruceC says:


    Okay, here it goes.

    For the last five years as a Deputy Sheriff it was my job to serve all the civil court and family court papers(they could be dangerous). Best gig in the dept.

    I had a property execution to serve against a lady that ran a palm reading/fortune telling business in the only city in our county. What that meant was that the court ordered that I empty her cash register to pay a bill that she owed and was sued for, or to take the entire register back to the station and have a lock smith open it if she would not. I have done this quite a few times. Anyway she was in another room when I arrived and I told her employee that I would wait for her. I could see her through the beads that were in the doorway and she was reading someone’s palm. When she came out I informed as to my business and she replied ” I had no idea you were coming!” I said, “You didn’t? I thought you were a fortune teller and knew the future!”
    Her customer was still in the store and the look she gave her was priceless.
    I will never forget that day and my boss laughed till he almost cried when I told him.

    Soli Deo Gloria!

  70. remarutho says:

    Dear Artle —

    Re your 1:10 pm post:

    It seems to me the comments are on different time schedules — and also reflect the point the speaker has picked up on either from Mart’s original post — or from a subsequent comment. I am always grateful when a speaker references the post (s)he is referencing. Makes things clearer.

    Reminds me of wave after wave after wave washing up on a shallow beach. They overtake one another and sometimes don’t even reach the sand because they tumble together so much.

    Occasionally, I simply return to Mart’s post and pick up the thread of the original thought — to see if I have something to contribute to the overall conversation. You will be happy to hear that I sometimes stop commenting because I really cannot contribute anything that seems worthwhile. :o)

    Seems to me you can just jump in anywhere you like!


  71. remarutho says:

    Guess I meant — grateful when the speaker specifies the post (s)he is talking about — commenting on. Maru

    Not easy to talk about talking!

  72. oneg2dblu says:

    Sorry pooh, I’m a little lost on all this woman bashing we assume is found in the word of God, and then being used in the church. If that is where we are with this discussion. If not, then ignore me please.
    Where the Matthew 7 principle applies in my thinking is, more about not taking our conflicts in the church to the outside world (dogs)to look for solutions.
    So, if we are talking about abuse in the church then, Matthew 7 does not seem to apply, in my thinking.
    Sorry Artie… these discussions do run amuck at times, they are not all clear sailing, although they have lots of wind, there’s no certain telling where they come from or go. I hope that helped!!! Gary

  73. phpatato says:


    If I have contributed to your confusion at all in times past, I apologize.

    A rant is sometimes very beneficial for the ranter. It helps to purge the system :-). (I am not condoning the rant, I said that for a bit of humour). Also, a rant to you may not be a rant to me and vice-versa. With the written form of conversation, it is at best, very difficult to convey thoughts. Not seen are the facial expressions or the tone of voice if spoken in person. The more time spent here, the more you get a sense of who people are. It is easy to go off topic especially being 50 or 60 comments along. Mart is very patient with us. As long as it doesn’t get nasty (which it has sadly been prone to do sometimes (personality conflicts perhaps or just plain getting up in a bad mood)) I believe he gives us a little wiggle room to veer off topic.

    Again, as in any room full of people, you quickly form friendships. I consider everyone in here a fellow traveller and a dear brother and sister in Christ.

    I may be dead wrong on this but I envision BTA being a room full of cozy armchairs. We are graciously invited in by Mart, with coffee or tea in hand, to sit in a chair by the fire. He puts forth a topic and lets us speak our thoughts on it. As in any room with several people, there tends to be mini conversations branching off the main conversation…one example – a prayer request. I’m thinking that’s just human nature. So as Maru has said, just jump in whenever you like.

    Again, please forgive me if I have added to your discomfort.

  74. oneg2dblu says:

    I assume all the hearts and minds in the church want to learn, and then the scriptures we share will speak for themselves when shared.
    2 Timothy 3:16 NIV
    2 Timothy 4:2,3,4 NIV
    Yes, some scriptures when shared are received as harsh and do rebuke, correct, teach.
    But our bringing any of PC into the church will never solve what the scriptures are trying to teach.
    This P C is of the world is for the (dogs) who can not understand scruipture.
    So, the P C teachings of this world are useless to the church, just as the scriptures of the church may seem useless to the world.
    But making problems become gender only abuse issues they get elevated beyond their scriptural reference or purpose in the church, where we bring nothing but problems to both the church and the world.
    In my veiw, if there is to be no gender in Christ, there certainly should not be gender abuse in Christ, or the church of Christ either.
    Maybe my earthly manhood has blinded me, but the churched part of me, sees no gender abuse applied to the word.

  75. poohpity says:

    Yepper Gary missed the point but that is fine, I love you anyway.

    artle, all I can say they are kinder to you than they have been to me over the same issue but that means growth and that is always good but then others just ignore what Mart has asked of us and take his silence as condoning the behavior and continue on with what they have always done, no change. The guidelines are still the same and they have not changed, prayer requests seem fine and weather conditions in our neighborhood he also said were fine.

  76. poohpity says:

    Bruce that made me crack up too!!

  77. Artle says:

    Thanks all, for not only hearing, but listening too. I have figured out that if I double space before I paste it keeps my paragraphs.

    I hear voices in my head when I read the words. Each voice has a different sound and depending on the comments, maybe a different tone. I believe to write is to speak and regardless of what is said, it comes from the heart and gives qualities to the voices I hear. Someone I trust once said, “, for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.” Luke 6:45 (NASB)

    Back on topic, I have a new appreciation for Solomon’s writings and, for me at the moment, would say his part of Big Story is: all the wisdom and wealth in the world cannot fill the emptiness in the heart of one. The emptiness in the heart of one can only be filled by God through the One called Jesus. One + one = One. He helps us all be One.

  78. oneg2dblu says:

    I just passed a sign in front of a local church the other day which reads, “Having all the things in the world can drain man, but only God can fill him up.”
    Thay may not be verbatim.

  79. Artle says:

    Wisdom and knowledge are great, but they can’t save a soul. They can help, and I think that is why 2 Timothy 3:16, but they cannot Romans 10:9.

  80. Artle says:

    The username is A r t l e and pronounced Art’-lee like if a person were artistic they would be Artly. I had to mention this because I wanted to make sure everyone was hearing the right voice. Makes a difference, doesn’t it.

    I read a commentary where they thought the one upright man Solomon found was Jesus, but this seems a stretch to me, other than the undeniable fact that he actually would be the only truly upright man. I suppose it is possible that they met, seeing as how John 1:1 KJV.

  81. cbrown says:

    Sometimes the shortest post are the most profound!Please see above posted at 8:48PM.

  82. foreverblessed says:

    Sorry Artle for having unsettled you, it was me who said something about the last topic, the super woman. As the comment of cbrown, Sep 25 8.26 am, was really helpful for me, and it helped me solve the question of the former topic. But I should have posted it there and not here.
    Too bad nobody else joined in what he said, so now it became a loose end. These things happen here.

    About unsettling comments, I hope you were joking about having lived many thousands of years. This is a christian blog, and it attracts people with a religious spirit, and that is not the same as the Holy Spirit. Some of them have written weird things here.
    Anyway, even after having been here for a couple of years, I still can’t cope with all the comments, it is too much information. I take what is needed for myself, and I comment what I believe is helpful for others. But getting all the different pieces brought up here together is impossible. I leave it for the Holy Spirit to work out in our hearts.

  83. foreverblessed says:

    And ofcourse, very important point of this blog: the prayer load, that what we share here, and pray for each other. If there is one thing that would stand out as of being a christian blog: the praying for each other, we who do want to follow Jesus, and do what He commanded us: love each other as I have loved you.
    And I believe that is one way in which we share the load of our fellow christian, as stated in Gal 6:2

    Would it be appropriate to tell the newcomers what the issues are that people have shared here.
    I think of Kingsdaughter, who had lost her son to suicide, the date being March 6. When that date approached 2 years ago, she did not comment anymore, does anyone remember her? She found bible reading difficult, the condemnation that hit her. Lets pray for her again together.

  84. SFDBWV says:

    Bruce that story was funny thanks for sharing it with us.


  85. Artle says:

    forever, no specific comments in mind, I was just more or less making an observation with a slight appeal for help in understanding. Saying, “this is what I see, am I seeing it right?” and the responses seem to indicate I at least have a fair grasp.

    On your comment after cbrown 8:26am: I type a lot of thoughts that I do not post, and last night, due a somewhat difficult day in the world, I read thru the entire discussion. Here is one of my non-posted thoughts:

    foreverblessed says: September 25, 2013 at 9:03 am, Yes, yes , yes, yes, Matthew 6:23

    On the thousands of years comment, I was speaking of the life of mankind, but I can see how that statement could mean something entirely different. I need to add a figurative filter to my pre-comment proof read.

  86. SFDBWV says:

    While we discuss the quote from Solomon that he never met a woman who possessed *wisdom*, I think there may be virtuous women found in Scripture if you just look.

    I will miss many for there are many, but there is Ruth and Naomi, there is Queen Esther and Zipporah was wise enough to know how to save her husband from death.

    Paul gave special notice to several women, Lois, and Eunice for two, but there are more many more women found to be wise if you look for them in Scripture.

    This topic is one of those contentious matters I keep coming up with when having different translations given. In My King James Bible the string of verses that begin with Ecclesiastes 7:23 my version says “All this I have proved by *wisdom*: I said I will be wise; but it was far from me.” And in Ecclesiastes 7:25 my version says “I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out *wisdom*, and the reason of things,…” then in Ecclesiastes 7:27, 28 Solomon says in my version Behold, this I have found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account; Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a women among all those have I not found.”

    I see a great difference between *virtue* and *wisdom* so when these verses are given they seem to say different things depending on which translation you have before you.

    My own mother I would have to say was a virtuous woman as well as is my wife so to find myself disagreeing with Scripture would make me feel very uncomfortable, and yet I am at peace even with this otherwise disturbing string of verses found in Scripture.


  87. Artle says:

    Note to self, “Self, check verse references before submitting comment.” Should have been:

    foreverblessed says: September 25, 2013 at 9:03 am, Yes, yes , yes, yes, Matthew 6:33

  88. foreverblessed says:

    Thank you Artle for explaining! Thank you for throwing up that question, there is another thing about participating in this blog: it could become an idol:
    I am thinking more about what to say on this blog, than that I am in discussion with Jesus. That is what I have found can be a trap. (so to speak in the manner of the Preacher)

    Steve, it is the vision of the Preacher, who was a son of David, so it is not the experience of Jesus.
    And I looked it up in the Biblos site, there you can find the Hebrew wording of Eccl 7:23,
    it is wisdom, “I will be wise”
    so that must make it easier for you.
    This whole passage of Eccle 7:23-29 has also a key verse in it: he found out that women can be a trap

    And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.
    and then comes the next thing he found:
    And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.

    In his search for finding out, by also doing foolish things he got trapped in women’s snares. As we know from Solomon, the wives led him astray from God. And here he gives an explanation. He was in their nets, he couldn’t get out.
    In this setting the verse of Mart v28 is better understood. It is as fadingman stated, this whole thing is about the experience of the Preacher, probably Solomon.

  89. SFDBWV says:

    Yes Foreverblessed you are right, if we remember these are the writings of Solomon and are Solomon’s experiences not even our own nor all encompassing.

    So why is it the Holy Spirit has included this in Scripture? Perhaps to give a fuller explanation of the heart and intellect of Solomon.

    I purposely excluded the woman trap verses as they paint a darker picture and though true, I was wanting to get away from that view.

    Thank you


  90. cbrown says:

    Jesus changes everything. Although Solomon disobeyed and sought women for all the wrong reasons marriage should and can glorify God. I am going to have to go back now and read the Song of Solomon again.

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