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What Was Adam Thinking?


Flickr Photo by Don

In our last conversation about forgiving ourselves, I think many of you sensed that, if the God who revealed himself in Jesus is our reference point, then the root of forgiving others, and ourselves, is the highest kind of love (i.e. not just feeling, but choosing to actively seek the highest good of another). In that sense God’s love expresses his goodness, as his goodness is seen in his love.

Somewhere along the line, a couple of brief comments were made about the relationship between Adam and Even in bringing sin into the world. Ever wonder whether they had enormous issues with forgiving themselves—especially after Cain killed Abel?

Something else that we’re not told specifically is what Adam was thinking when he joined Eve. The Apostle Paul implies that, while Eve was misled, Adam acted knowingly and willfully (1Tim 2:14).

Lately I’ve been thinking about the relationship between Adam and Christ (Rom 5:12-18), and wondering whether Adam knowingly entered into sin because of his love for Eve. Yes, the question is hypothetical, and the answer could be that while Eve was deceived, Adam was just plain rebellious.

Or could there be a relationship between Adam’s action and several other expressions of love in the Scriptures?

I’m thinking of:

Moses willingness to be wiped out of “the book of life” if God would not forgive the people he loved (Exod 32:32).

David’s wish that he could have died rather than Absalom (2Sam 18:33)

Paul’s wish that he could be separated from Christ if it could bring about the salvation of his people (Rom 9:1-3).

Then there is the Christ, Jesus who didn’t just wish as much, but showed how much he was lovingly willing to pay to enter our sin, to return us to himself, and his Father (2Cor 5:21).

Am wondering whether, together, all of this could be saying something about the love that seems to be at the root of being forgiven, forgiving others, and forgiving ourselves.

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115 Responses to “What Was Adam Thinking?”

  1. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Yes, we are not told specifically what Adam was thinking. But I think it did have something to do with his love for Eve. Surely, it wasn’t a case of him being so oblivious he didn’t realize he was doing what he’d been told not to do.

    I think it was because he loved Eve. Whether because he’d rather die than give her up, or that he cared for her so much he wanted to stand in the way of any punishment she would receive. Or both.

    Is that love? Wanting to take on the suffering of someone who has brought it on themselves because you don’t want them to have to bear it?

    How many people do we love like that? The way God loves us.

    Isn’t the church the bride of Christ?

  2. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All —

    As I read Genesis 2, it seems to me there was only one stated rule God gave Adam. It surely applied to Eve as well, after she was created from Adam’s rib. We might wonder why God made the man first, or why God chose to fashion the woman from the bone of the man rather than from the dust directly…no answers emerge, it seems to me.

    However, temptation is just that: temptation to break the rule. The serpent’s offer to have “opened eyes” and “being like God” overcame Eve’s call to obedience. Seeing that the fruit was good and that it imparted wisdom caused Eve to be duped, then she simply gave the fruit to her husband. He was with her and he ate the fruit. The text is silent on Adam’s thinking process. They both knew it was forbidden.

    Moses, David and Paul were moved by compassion and love to cover over the blindness and deafness of the one(s) they loved — the wayward people and the wayward son. Whatever temptation they experienced is wrapped up in their concern.

    Jesus stands alone as the One who is actually able to intervene in the sin-cycle — and literally take upon Himself the burden of human disobedience. He was tempted, the Bible says, but did not sin. (Hebrews 2:18) The second Adam is able to undo what the first humans did at the moment of temptation, it seems to me. (1 Cor 15:21, 22)

    Blessings all day,

  3. SFDBWV says:

    My thought on this topic is not original to me, I have read and heard it from others. Whether hypothetical or not it makes sense to me from every angle of Scripture.

    Eve being the newest and most vulnerable of the two humans was who the deceiver cornered and using all the tricks of his sin nature brought Eve into a condition of being separated from God, cast out and left to be alone for eternity.

    It was Adam’s love for Eve that caused him to eat of the fruit as well so that she would not face punishment and separation alone.

    He knew what he was doing and did it for her.

    It is the same posture that Jesus took for mankind, yet with the twist that through His sacrifice Adam and Eve and all they would become (we their descendants) would be restored to their proper relationship with God.

    It may even be that Adam had faith enough in God that he *hoped* a solution would be made possible.

    This is the view I have of Adam. Stepping out in faith, perhaps not knowing the full extent of what would follow, but willing to sacrifice himself believing that God would not abandon them forever.


  4. remarutho says:

    As you wrote, Mart:

    “Then there is the Christ, Jesus who didn’t just wish as much, but showed how much he was lovingly willing to pay to enter our sin, to return us to himself, and his Father (2 Cor 5:21).”

    I surely wish and dream for the kingdom of God to come fully and soon, and Jesus makes it so. No other person could.

  5. poohpity says:

    There is no love found in pride! If Adam had loved Eve or even God for that matter it seems in that moment she reached for that knowledge(fruit) he would have gently reached up and took her hand and lead her away from that tree. Since we know that love is seeking the highest good of another. The same with Cain and Abel it was bruised pride that caused that murder.(Genesis 4:4-6 NASB) Pride it seems is also responsible for people hiding from God, God did not hide from them.(Genesis 3:8-9)

    Pride keeps us from forgiving but pride is responsible for the reason we judge and condemn others. Thinking that it is our job to play God by withholding love, mercy and grace when God gave it so freely and He is GOD who if anyone should have pride it would be Him but rather lowered Himself to take on the frailty of human flesh.(Phil 2:6,7,8) It was humility that Moses, David and Paul had the desire if it could have helped to die in place of the people they loved.

  6. joycemb says:

    I’m thinking after reading your scripture reference in Romans, Mart, that if the Law was given to teach people how to live in a world of death, how much better the cross where we now have access to the world of Life!

    I’m also thinking, like Steve, that even if some read the Bible as more figurative than literal, what a wonderful “story” it is! And also, does it really matter, whether we think the story is based on fact or philosophy built on conviction that there IS Something greater than us out there? However we are led, I think, knowing we are led to something greater than ourselves takes the pride, as you say Pooh, out of Big Picture!

  7. jeff1 says:

    Is evil not the reason we judge and condemn others?
    Recently a murder was commited in our Province, a wife conspired with her lover and they killed both their spouses. Today in jail that wife is now getting further education and will come out of jail with a degree. Young people are paying up to nine thousand pounds a year to go to University and get a degree and if they get a loan it has to be paid back over time. Am I being judgmental by disagreeing on laws that reward wrong doing and as a Christ follower should I not be thinking this way? Your opinions would be appreciated as I am finding it more and more difficult to ascertain when am I considered to be judging and am I not right to see wrong doing as behaviour that should warrant punishment rather than reward if society is to give out the right messages to the rest of society.

  8. jeff1 says:

    Sorry to go off topic but Pooh you said that pride was why we judge and condemn while I believe that it is evil that we judge and condemn and in doing so we are on God’s side.

  9. joycemb says:

    Viv I like that, reminds me of the phrase, hate the sin but love the sinner.

  10. poohpity says:

    Is not God alone capable of judgement since He can see within a person’s heart? When we think another person’s actions are evil without realizing the evil within our own hearts isn’t that pride? That to me is saying they are worse than me so in that I would be saying my evil is not as bad as theirs and that to me is very, very prideful. Pride compares one’s self to others, humility says we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and compares one’s self to Jesus and then we realize that there is no way we can compare to Him and that keeps us looking to God not to the actions others. Matt 7:1,2,3,4,

  11. poohpity says:

    If love is seeking the highest good for another then evil is seeking to harm them. Pride causes harm not only to the person who holds it within their heart but it causes actions that harm others and our relationship with God more importantly.

  12. tracey5tgbtg says:

    God told them if they ate of the tree, the would die. Did they have any concept of death at that point? Does anyone truly understand the ramifications of sin as they are doing what seems right in their own eyes? How could pride have been their problem. They are standing there naked and they don’t even have a clue what that means.

  13. joycemb says:

    God opposes the proud ( Prov 3:34 ). Both James ( 4:6 ) and Peter ( 1 Peter 5:5 ) cite this Old Testament text, including the word hyperephanos [uJperhvfano”], the “proud/arrogant” person. It stands in contrast to the word “humble, ” a quality that God honors. Paul’s list ( Rom 1:30 ) includes hybristes [uJbristhv”], one who behaves arrogantly toward those who are too weak to retaliate.

    Finally, a remarkable example of hyperephanos [uJperhvfano”] occurs in the Magnificat ( Luke 1:51 ). Using language largely from the Old Testament, Mary tells how God will scatter the proud, possibly a reference to a specific group in society and political life. They are characterized by suppressing the masses, the poor and humble in Israel. God will overthrow them and exalt the lowly. While his wrath is upon the proud, he will visit the humble in grace.

    from Bakers Evangelical Theology

  14. poohpity says:

    tracey, Genesis 3:5 to me it seems the temptation to be like God is a pride issue. If they actually trusted God they would not have even desired anything other than just being with Him in garden where everything they needed was provided.

  15. oneg2dblu says:

    I guess if we are always thinking others are pride filled than that is what we tend to see in them, and probably every one else who tries to correct them.

    The response is always the same, Who are you to judge me?

    I see no pride issue going on here, nor do I see any pride issue when one Loving Christian brings rebuke, correction, or godly judgement already displayed in the word, by sharing, rather then seeing another walking into harms way.

    Saying to themselves, I am not God, so I can not judge another.

    If fact if you ignore helping or telling them, then you are guilty of the Sin of Omission, for you should love and care for them enough to correct them lovingly as well.

    We are commanded to do so, so use godly scriptural discernment when you see a brother wrongly living out their lives, and the scripture says you will save not only them much trouble, but bring upon yourself many blessings.

    There is no pride in any loving correction, or any loving rebuke, or in loving another enough to help them see their error.

    But, if you are looking for pride, probably that will be what you see instead.

    Adam and Eve probably shared all their food, always eating together, just like lovers today who want their mate to experience the good things they are eating and offer up a bite to them.

    If a brother sees how another lives, and knows they are walking outside the Will of God, outside the scriptures boundaries, and does not tell them for fear that they will look prideful, then, where is the love shown in keeping quiet?

    Was it an act of love, or fear of being seen as pride filled, or judgmental, that the church was so silent during the Holocaust!

    How about today’s ever darkening world which we all see doing the wrong things, but for the right reasons?

    I think we take a bite of the world’s apple every day we don’t take a stand against what is going so wrong in this world today…

    Just Thinking…

  16. SFDBWV says:

    Pooh it is said that what is in our hearts is what comes out of our mouths or in this case what we write down.

    Why would you think the worst of Adam instead of the best?

    Since you actually don’t know and there being no evidence in Scripture to support that Adam was afflicted with “pride”, why would you think or in this case, that Adam took the forbidden fruit out of “pride”. What evidence of Scripture tells you that Adam did not love Eve? It is written that pride is the sin of Satan, Adams sin was one of disobedience.

    The conversation is between Eve and the serpent not between the serpent, Adam and Eve.

    One of the “Ten Commandments” is not to bear false witness against another. Can you factually accuse Adam without proof, especially since this subject can only be seen from a hypothetical view?

    I will give Adam the benefit of the doubt and believe he not only loved Eve, but was willing to share in her punishment rather than see her suffer alone.

    This “story” is one of many living examples of Christ.

    Has God reached down and stopped you or any of us from choosing sin over obedience? Do you think then that God doesn’t love you because He let you choose?

    Sorry I don’t see pride in Adam from anything I have read of Him. Nor do I in Eve.


  17. jeff1 says:

    The difference Pooh in me having evil in my own heart is that I do not act on it, it is a struggle for me and seperates me from God but it is I who suffer not others.
    The people who act on the evil in their heart have caused hurt and damaged their relationship with others. I am not judging their relationship with God I am simply seeing that their is consequences to not battling against the evil that arises within us. It is only God knows our hearts but it please Him when we make the effort to not act on our feelings. When I battle with my demons, God is pleased that I am trying to change my old ways instead of giving into them.

  18. bubbles says:

    We could speculate forever about why Adam and Eve did what they did. For whatever reason God saw fit to not tell us why they did what they did. They sinned and that’s the bottom line. Even if we knew their motives, would that help us live a better life in any way? People are rebellious. A child can be told to not do something and he will immediately do it and then LIE about doing it and then get angry when corrected. While that mess is going on, another child will do the very same thing the other child did. Why do they do that? They are rebellious and don’t want anyone telling them what to do.

  19. joycemb says:

    It takes a long time to put up the armour we HAD to put up when we’ve been beaten up a few times by life. It changes us and removing our armour takes care and time, often a lifetime. But if God be for us who can be against us? Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

    James says if we need wisdom to ask, and God will not berate us because we didn’t know. I believe He does not berate us for however long it takes us to trust Him enough to be able to love like Jesus loved us. To lay down our weapons of warfare and use His.

  20. narrowpathseeker says:

    Sometimes I just don’t get it. If anyone knowing Ted Bundy’s history heard him giving a sermon on “Thou shall not kill” in a tone that implied that he was far above such an act, what would be the reaction of those listening to him? This continual “pot calling the kettle black” business in the cloak of Christianity, makes me question many things as to whether I will ever rise above myself.

  21. street says:

    mart said, “Or could there be a relationship between Adam’s action and several other expressions of love in the Scriptures?”

    the relationship is one of will, God’s or mine? no matter what adam thought, he did not turn to God for help and struck out on his own.

    remember the question purposed earlier of asking God to die for us so we can live and not die?

    we are warned of wild speculations and encourage to pursue the ancient path.

    remember the habit of God meeting with adam in the cool of the day? no where is it mentioned he would go meet with God on His own. yet we are called to come to Him.

  22. phpatato says:

    Gary, I quite enjoyed reading what you said today. Your reason as to why Adam ate the apple is a good one. I immediately saw in my mind’s eye, Eve handing the apple to Adam telling him how scrumptious it tasted and Adam, excited to see Eve’s excitement, took a bite because he was wanting to be apart of and share in what his mate was experiencing. Yes Steve, that was love on his part. If he was like some husbands today, he’d huff and walk away not even caring what she said or did. But Bubbles, you have a great point too. We can talk and surmise and think and discuss until the cows come home and not ever know the whys, until God in His timing reveals them to us.

    Pearl, my dearest friend, stay the course and keep on keeping on. You are loved by many and are truly loved by God. Will we ever rise above ourselves in this life? All we can do is press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:14

    Press on my dear friend, press on! xo

  23. street says:

    mart said,”Am wondering whether, together, all of this could be saying something about the love that seems to be at the root of being forgiven, forgiving others, and forgiving ourselves.”

    yes, a love working it’s way out in what is truly needed.

  24. street says:

    narrow said,” makes me question many things as to whether I will ever rise above myself.”

    we can not ever rise that far on our own. all fall sort. the substitution of Jesus for our failings and rebellion is the only remedy to meet God’s Righteous Holy Standard. the grace we receive on a daily basis is unparalleled in human thinking or action. He gave us what we needed not what we wanted. are wanton hearts are broken. He gives us His.

  25. street says:

    been thinking about evil on the horrific scale encountered in the past and the fear of it in the future. evil in the from of terror tries to manipulate us to conform to certain practices.

    God used evil nations to discipline israel several times. unforgiveness is a practice of condemnation. with no remedy. there is a parable about receiving forgiveness and not extending it to others. i do not believe love is apart of evil in any way shape or form. to say so is to bring charges against God like job did. then again evil thinks they are god and God continues to lol. job was a righteous man, God said so, and, job, had difficulty till, he met God. Grace is wonderful. it is staggering to consider what God is doing and does on a daily basis. all things under heaven are His. trust Him, He can bring the dead to life. real life.

  26. SFDBWV says:

    The world of theology and science among academic and intellectual thinkers is an endless frustration of looking for answers that satisfy.

    Unfortunately they are seldom at rest, as every speculative answer only opens up another question.

    One thing I have learned over time is that in the world of Bible study if we look at it from an open mind with the tutelage from the Holy Spirit it can be fun and enjoyable.

    If we look at it with a closed mind always looking for conformation as to where you are at in your growth it can be limited and more of a struggle than an enjoyable journey.

    I also have to remember that in Bible study I am not only studying the “Word” but also the “Face” of God.

    Amongst the scientific and intellectual world we live in there are many who embrace evolution rather that creation. The story of Adam and Eve to them is just that a “story”.

    There are also many who consider themselves to be Christian who don’t fully embrace the creation story in Genesis as factual or literal. For them the story is an explanation and introduction into philosophy, not *faith*.

    If you tell the story of Adam and Eve to a little child, they just believe it out right, but then immediately question why did Adam and Eve disobey?

    And the circle is complete, from hearing the story to discovering answers that takes one on a life long journey of discovery in learning who God is.

    Don’t ever think that we can out think God. He knows exactly what He is doing and for the purpose of this story it begins with Adam and ends with Jesus. Though in reality it began with Jesus and so ends with Jesus.

    Rain this morning as May was more like June and June more like July, wondering what July will be like.


  27. foreverblessed says:

    What a subject, I was like one who thought, I do not know what Adam was thinking, but Mart gave it a love part.
    It reminds me of a story of how christianity was brought to the northern part of Europe, there was a Frysian king, and he was going to give his heart to Jesus, ready to be baptized, before he put his feet in the water, he asked: and what of my ancestors, where are they?
    The answer was: In hell.
    Then he took his feet out of the water, and said, well then I do not want to go to heaven.

    It sometimes feels selfish when you do not go with you family members who go their own way, and you follow Christ.
    But…. I think that when Christ can do His work in me, then He will influence through me, to all the ones I love.
    That is my hope.

    The great security, that when I look up to Him, and I am cleansed by Him, and made new every day, the greater influence will go through me by HIM.
    That is godly love, that gives life

  28. foreverblessed says:

    Narrow, your comment on June 15, 6.55 pm really hit me: You are sooooo right, if you look to the law, ( of which one is: Thou shalt not kill), then indeed you will get the feeling: I will never rise above myself.

    Looking to the Law for guidance is like living under the Old Covenant.
    But God has brought something NEW,
    He was talking about it in the Old Testament, many many times, but it is hidden.
    The central chapter in the bible is Psalm 118, the person who is in great disstress (like Narrow is) Psalm 118:13-14, is saying Psalm 118:115 what is that might thing that the Lord has done? Psalm 118:19-21 You have become my salvation, and how did He bocme that Salvation? Psalm 118:22: the stone that became the Cornerstone, the Lord has done it, and it is marvellous in His sight. A marevellous thing happening! verse 22 then it gives another great clue: Psalm 118:24: this is the Day, let us be glad and rejoice in it!
    What is that Day, the chapter that is in the central of the bible talks about a Day…
    it goes on to say: let us be happy, and go to the altar, with bows in hand (and bind the offer with ropes) to the horns of the altar.
    Then he says: You are my God, and I will give you thanks, You are my God, and I will exalt You.
    Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good, his love endures for ever.

    And then starts Psalm 119:1
    Blessed are those who keep you statutes, they are blameless.
    What are these statutes, and ordinances, and commands?
    His statutes are this: that all our sins and shortcomings are taken up in the Cross when we look up in faith to Him.

    When Narrow cries out: can I ever rise above myself?
    Yes, as long as you look up to Jesus!!!
    Keep looking up to Him.

    And how can we then be blameless?
    1. His blood purges us
    2 His life flows through us, and give us a new heart, and gives us power, the fountain of life that will flow through us, from our belly, and touch others around us, and most of the time without knowing it.
    Because we are the pipelines, and the water that flows is His.

    That are His statutes, His commands….

    I know nothing else but the Cross 1 Cor 2:2-5

    But how does that work: Looking to the Cross,
    This morning we had a christian meeting, and someone saw a great Tree, like a Cross, and all that is from the earth was flowing into the Cross from down under, and going upwards, and came out on top in newness like blossom, new life.

    I have felt this now a few weeks now, in the morning, when I look up to Jesus, it was as if I saw a Cross, and all things in me, that is from the earth, and fallen, being taken up to the Cross, like as if the Cross was a big magnet, drawing out of me what does not belong to God.
    That is the message of the Cross, that all we can give to Him is our weakness, our failures, our shortcoming, and He takes it from us, and we are free from sin, from burdens. And He gives us His new life, His glorious life, full of grace and truth, and mercy, and love, patience.

    If we look to the Law or life, we will only find discouragement, the Law will tell us what is wrong, but will not move a finger to Help us.
    That is why Jesus is the Living Law, the Living Word, He moves His whole being to Help us. He is our Helper, in the Spirit, He is our Salvation.
    The second Adam, who came after the first Adam, who failed, and who is now forgiven, I hope (I believe), and safe in heaven.

  29. foreverblessed says:

    What is that Day: Psalm 119:27-29
    the Offer that was brought to the altar, by which He shines His light upon us, that light of which Genesis 1:3 is giving a hint, let there be Light!

  30. foreverblessed says:

    Sorry, I was trying to give Psalm 118:27-29
    But, what is meditating on His precepts, what are His wondrous Works: that is indeed the work through the Cross…

  31. poohpity says:

    Of course I struggle with pride and I will never deny it. That would be sort of useless since Christ knows even the secret places within my heart, mind and soul but when I confess it I am in agreement with God and that allows me to understand forgiveness and grace. I recognize how much work God has left in me to do.

    I really enjoyed the truth you taught forever. It made me think of something I read yesterday; “”Unbelief is the most active thing on earth; it is a fretful, worrying, questioning, annoying, selfcentred spirit. To believe is to stop all this and let God work.” –Oswald Chambers”

  32. SFDBWV says:

    In re-reading Mart’s message I had reason to pause at whether or not Adam and Eve ever forgave themselves for the original sin especially after the murder of Abel.

    Just the thought reminded me of the story of Pandora in mythology and how once out of the box all the evils of the world could not be contained again within the confines of the famous “box”.

    Any one of us who have done something regretful knows that sick feeling deep in our stomachs (spirit) that gnaws at us without release. Only the peace of God can actually remove it. (Philippians 4:4, 5, 6, 7)

    Being a “creationist” I have come to know that the world we live in today looks nothing like the world that existed when Adam and Eve exited Eden and began a life outside of the Garden.

    Though from this point forward in the story God still interacted with the few humans that began to emerge on the scene it was the sin of disobedience that Adam and Eve’s children inherited from them that began to spread and take shape on the planet.

    It appears that regret and misplaced frustration, envy and anger was more prevalent than forgiveness at any level.

    It is my guess that Adam and Eve lamented over their situation and my hope that they lived out their lives like many of us looking to God to rescue them.

    I have a very telling discovery that is found in the genealogy from Adam to Noah that may enlighten some of you. Each name includes its meaning

    Genesis 5…..
    Adam (Man)
    Seth (Appointed)
    Enos (Mortal)
    Cainan (Sorrow)
    Mahalaheel (The Blessed God)
    Jared (Shall Come Down)
    Enoch (Teaching)
    Methuselah (His Death Shall Bring)
    Lamech (Despairing)
    Noah (Comfort and Rest)

    These descendants of Adam knew there was a flood coming and the Holy Spirit spelled out the salvation of man in the naming of them.

    Enjoy learning about our Lord it can be fun.


  33. oneg2dblu says:

    foreverblessed… I am not shocked, but horrified, that a Christ Follower would say, “Looking to the Law for guidance is like living under the Old Covenant,”

    What type of teaching is that?
    False, false, false, and if you believe that, you have been falsely taught.

    We must all look to the very word of God for guidance in all things.

    Christ himslef, used this very word, IT is written, for a reason.

    I see no reason we can not look to the law for guidance.

    Later on in your post you changed that word for life.

    Yes, salvation is not found in the letter of the law, but guidance???


  34. poohpity says:

    Just because you do not understand what happened at the Cross Gary does not mean in anyway that what forever said is false teaching. Read the New Testament. Obedience is not the root of the Christian life, faith is and through that faith it’s fruit will be no desire to continue in sin because we believe in what was accomplished at the Cross. What you continuously teach is a life lived in the flesh which is rooted in the pride of trying to follow obedience to the law that only showed us our sin so the focus is on sin not on the Cross.(John 1:14,17; Romans 5:17,18; Romans 6:14; Romans 7:4,6; Romans 8:2; Gal 5:18)

  35. poohpity says:

    Where our focus is, our heart will follow.

  36. remarutho says:

    Just so, Pooh and All —

    It is simple, but not easy to understand that in the very
    body and blood of Jesus Christ the Law is fulfilled and
    made complete. Its requirements are satisfied.

    As you cited Romans 7:6:

    “But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.”

    By faith we lay down our life in order to receive the New Life freely offered to us by God the Son. The desire to follow Him displaces the desire to be self-determined and we accept the great gift He gives. The Holy Spirit is the seal of eternal life — the life inaugurated in flesh when Jesus rose from death. We are not perfect, rather we are being perfected as we make this journey.

    Adam wasn’t thinking about this in Eden, but God was!


  37. jeff1 says:

    Thanks for this understanding Maru that is why at times I feel I take one step forward and two steps back because I am still a work in process. As I mentioned before I still at times have thoughts towards others that are against the Holy Spirit and now I run to Christ when I have them instead of feeding them and telling myself what my flesh wanted to hear. This is pleasing to God and He strengths me each time I go to Him. It’s so amazing, and yet until you are ready to understand you can not understand. My difficulty also arises with others who are not listening to God’s spirit in them for they are being led away by Science and Technology but I do hope that God will work His wonders through both so that we may all rejoice in Him.

  38. remarutho says:

    Dear Viv —

    I am convinced it is rather two steps forward and perhaps one or one half step back. Jesus is clearly leading, and you are following. Your way is assured in Him! We must all pray for our friends who look to technology for salvation, it seems to me. The internet is a sorry substitute for God’s Word.

  39. oneg2dblu says:

    Pooh… you seem to see pride in every word I ever post here.
    You find it everywhere, even in the Garden story.

    I do not know how you can not see anything other then what what your flesh constantly desires to find.

    Pride, pride, pride, you are all about finding pride, and according to the word, pride is nothing but sin.

    So, for you to say I see nothing but sin, is really quite telling to me.

    So, why not just call a SPADE a SPADE when you see it, and stop judging others yourself, lest they use the same standard toward you.


  40. oneg2dblu says:

    Now to the other complete misunderstanding of Obedience to God’s Word, and how it plays out in the life of a Believer…

    There is nothing criminal, wrong, ungodly, unpleasant, or faith erasing, in being Obedient to the Word of God.

    Obedience is the very “telling fruit of living godly” or within the guidelines set in God’s Word, and part of God’s Word is found in His Commands, and certainly they include the law.

    To say we can not live according to the word, is to say we live as the rest of the unbelieving world chooses to live, Disobedient.

  41. poohpity says:

    Was it not you who called what forever said as false teaching?

  42. jeff1 says:

    Surely we try to be obedient to the word but when failure occurs because of weakness we are not to let it discourage us. There is false teaching in that many believe they can willfully sin and believe it is OK to do so because Salvation is still there’s. I do believe God has chosen His own people to lead because of their desire to follow His ways as opposed to others who decide if I have Salvation I can choose as I like.
    To me if you believe in God’s ways then you should want to please God but of course living in this world means we have all wandered from the truth and need to be restored by God’s power when He sees fit to do so.

  43. narrowpathseeker says:

    Steve, I think that is a beautiful concept on Adam and Eve…thank you for sharing.

    Has anyone heard from Regina? I have been thinking of her and all the horrific flooding in Texas…will continue to pray for her. Hopefully she is safe and sound.

  44. narrowpathseeker says:

    Street, Pat, ForeverBlessed, Thank you all for your encouraging thoughts. I get disgusted with myself when I get angry at the same person over and over again.. I thought I had that one licked.

  45. narrowpathseeker says:

    Joyce, thank you as well….I thought I had replied to you yesterday, but I didn’t see it so I guess I didn’t …;-)..thank you Joyce…Pearl

  46. narrowpathseeker says:

    Steve, that is EXACTLY what I feel and also the only way to have it removed!! but it comes back everytime I remember it…thank you for understanding that it isn’t actually guilt, but regret with a capitol R…”Any one of us who have done something regretful knows that sick feeling deep in our stomachs (spirit) that gnaws at us without release. Only the peace of God can actually remove it. (Philippians 4:4, 5, 6, 7)

  47. oneg2dblu says:

    jeff1… yes, you fully understand what false teaching looks like.

    To the rest of the viewing audience…

    To me,
    Anyone who goes to the word for guidance is one who is properly taught.

    Anyone who thinks a Born Again Believer is stuck living in, or under the Old Covenant again, just because they look to any of God’s Commandments, even those found in the Ten for guidance, is just plain false.

    Those who then come alongside them to support such thinking are also supporting a falsehood.

    Spreading a falsehood, or a misspoken word, is the same as spreading a false teaching, for you are leading people away from the truth.

    Once you have found that your salvation lies in Christ alone, how does one then go back to living under the Old Covenant just by looking for guidance in the word?

    Let’s not confuse Salvation, Repentance, and Obedience to God’s Word, or Disobedience, for they all exist under the New Covenant, and do not drag you back into the Old Covenant.


  48. narrowpathseeker says:

    Gary, for what it is worth, I think I understand the point you are trying to make…we need to TRY to be obedient and be remorseful and ask forgiveness for all that we fail at and then keep trying to do better today than yesterday and better tomorrow than today…right? At least if that is NOT what you mean, I know that your heart is in the right place… and you are not just trying to irk everybody…thank you for the passion you employ in your heartfelt endeavors to serve the Lord. Pearl

  49. narrowpathseeker says:

    Jeff1, it seems to me that you are on the right page! ;-) Once again…your honesty is so beautiful to me…thank you. Pearl

  50. narrowpathseeker says:

    Gary, you may want to consider that sometimes people from other countries may not choose the most appropriate word when communicating their thoughts on a matter…just a thought.. Pearl

  51. street says:

    mart said,” In that sense God’s love expresses his goodness, as his goodness is seen in his love.”

    been thinking of the tough love that requires stoning a person for picking up sticks on the Sabbath or killing people groups because of their immoral values because God said so. any one remember the flood or how many died in the exodus from egypt. i just know if we do not obey the outcome will be far worse for mankind. people are beginning to see the fragmentation of society not holding to God. i hope by our faith working through love we can hold up clean hands.

  52. joycemb says:

    Hi all,
    Pearl I think you are so right about how people from different countries-differing backgrounds even can say essentially the same thing in different ways. I guess I understood what foreverblessed was saying and didn’t find anything heretical about it.
    When I studied Worldviews we had to write different ways of presenting the gospel using other than the Christianese we American Evangelicals are taught. It was quite the task. And I wasn’t very good at it at all!

    Street the tough-love that I believe you are talking about is something we don’t like to think about, as Christians. Scripture is very clear that obedience is what we are called to, after we are saved by faith. This back and forth is making me dizzy, like a see-saw going up and down HARD each time it lands.

    There are many many Christians in prisons, jails, rehabs, and even dead through making amoral choices.
    Well, that’s my spew for the night.

    Raining here in MN USA with pleasant temps. I rescued a doxipoo (Dachsund/Poodle) yesterday and now get to enjoy the pleasures of taking him
    outside in the rain to do you know what. My cat likes him though and so do I! I named him Charlie. And I won’t melt, lol!

  53. foreverblessed says:

    I am so sorry that I have disturbed you Gary!
    And to all: I did not say that we could break the 10 commandments.
    Maybe I was too direct in what I said:
    I was trying to say that we should look to Jesus as our Guide, and how on earth does that mean that we can break the 10 commandments? Did Jesus anywhere tell us to do so?
    No, He didn’t, He even magnified the 10 commandments in such a way that it is totally impossible to keep them on our own, see Matt 5,6,7.
    We ought to study Jesus words, and what He was teaching, and we should follow that, not on our own, but in faith: telling God, I want to love my enemy, please help me my unlove!

    God bless you all, if you want to use the 10 commandments as your guide, do so, if you want to use Jesus as your Guide, try it!

  54. jeff1 says:

    I am thankful to have this blog to help me with God’s word for when you trust those as being sincerely looking then you grow and I have not found a more genuine people in searching for God’s will and that is why I chose to stay here even though there are times when I am out of my depth when it comes to knowing the Bible I know that you are all seeking to learn for the greater good and I have met so many who have learned the word and not used it in this way that I am glad and believe God has directed me here for guidance. I do not condemn those who have strayed from the truth because being brought up in a Community where violence was an everyday way of life affected many and they have lost their way but I am convinced that they are still God’s children and that He will bring them back to Him in time. Time is a healer for time gives us a chance to grow in Christ and also to soften our hardened hearts so let us not grow weary by our own experiences but allow God to give us wings to fly so that we may share in His Glory and put shame to the devil and His works.

  55. SFDBWV says:

    Pearl you are a pearl. Encouragement and soft words are always a healing balm. Thank you for your encouragement to me and the others you have “spoken” to.

    Foreverblessed you have no need to feel your message was not communicated properly I and others understood it clearly. Obviously it took a great deal of time and effort to write, I appreciate the work you put into it.

    Gary most of us here do not doubt your zeal and passion and no one here is advocating living a life of sin in contrast to old or new Testament teaching. Be a brother, brother and remember that love begets love and anger begets anger. Extend a hand instead of a fist and your journey may be more pleasant.

    I too am guilty of shooting from the hip too often and end up regretting it. Just some unsolicited advice.

    Continuing on to the community of readers.

    In a subject of “forgiving ourselves” there is a necessity in not repeating whatever it is we have done and when possible making atonement as part of the process in our own healing.
    If the matter involves another, your healing is connected to their healing. If you have done all you feel you can then by all means feel freed of any more obligation and allow yourself to experience peace.

    I am not sure any of us can ever really forgive ourselves in the full and total measure that God offers forgiveness to us.

    Because of God’s forgiving us we are spared punishment from Him and the idea of eternal torment.

    Is this something we can offer ourselves? That by having once did something wrong we can say “well I forgive myself” because ( fill in with any justification) and then experience peace?

    Perhaps forgiving ourselves is the wrong phrase. Maybe accepting God’s forgiveness and where applicable the forgiveness of another is all we can expect and then live on with the lesson and memory from a bad choice a better person for it a better understanding of what self-forgiveness might look like.


  56. saled says:

    foreverblessed, thank you for the story of the Frysian king who would rather go to hell with his ancestors than be baptized and separated from them. Perhaps Adam did have this type of love in mind when he joined Eve. This would certainly foreshadow the love of Christ for us.

    However, the story of the fall leaves me thinking of Adam’s and Eve’s innocence. Wasn’t it after the fall that their eyes were opened to their nakedness? There have been times in my 59 years when I willfully and knowingly sinned. But there have been other times when I was blindsided by my wrongs and horrified by the results. Didn’t Jesus say on the cross, “forgive them for they know not what they do”?

  57. foreverblessed says:

    Saled, maybe it was love, but a kind of love that brings death to both. A love that has a strange result.
    So I find this a tough subject. Mart is maybe trying to say, Do not judge the heart of Adam, he may have done it out of love.

    I liked the names Steve gave, June 16, 9.02 am, of the ancestors of Noah: Giving the message of the Gospel,
    that Christ would die for the salvation of the many. That we would live in this Grace.

    And, yes Steve, you are right, Paul is also very direct when he says: in Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
    See the scriptures Pooh has given, June 16, 12.00 pm Gal 5:18
    very direct words.
    But, if you are not led by the Spirit, you are still under the law. What shall we say then, to those who are not led by the Spirit: be under the Law, or do we lead them to a life in Christ Jesus.

    But, let me continue with Romans 6:14 what then, shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Read further in Romans 6:16-23

    Then also read in Romans 7:1-6
    We are in Christ, and as Christ died, we also died with him, we are dead.
    Dead to sin, the old man has died.
    Only, we have to believe that, and hold on to that believe. Because all these things still come up in us. Like Narrow is saying, the hate she feels to a particular person still comes up.

    What do we do with that, go back to the law which says: do not murder?

    OR, get that thought, and bring it immediately to the Cross. Grab the thought, stop any further thinking about the person and the wrong he has done, give it to the Cross. And do that any time it comes up, relentlessly. And start praising God instead, just start praising Him and thanking for all the good that He has done, or some other person that has done good to you.

    Persevering, till there comes a time when the Freedom of Christ will touch your heart, and in a miracle you feel the warmth, and the forgiveness coming into your heart, and you will know what it is to live in Grace.
    God bless you in your giving of your heart and worries and sin to Jesus, and may He fill you with His Life!

  58. foreverblessed says:

    Romans 6:15
    Sorry, I keep giving the wrong scriptures to my text
    Or : Romans 6:1-4
    Live in a new Life

  59. cbrown says:

    Jeff1,I too love the community of this blog. Wisdom flows through the comments and some times foolishness but God is always faithful and His lovingkindness endures forever! Proverbs 3:5-7New International Version (NIV)

    5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
    6 in all your ways submit to him,
    and he will make your paths straight.[a]
    7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
    fear the Lord and shun evil.

  60. jeff1 says:

    That it is a very good point Steve I think it is about accepting God’s forgiveness rather than forgiving myself but I seem to get the two confused. I sometimes find it is easier to love others than myself for I have lived with myself all my life while others come and go in my life. I find it is the consequences of my wrongs that are difficult to live with for they have affected my children and it is difficult to see your children making the same mixtakes and unable to stop them, there is punishment in that especially when all my life I have been told you reap what you sow. It seems that people love to rub it in when you get it wrong. You are right Steve it is God who frees us from eternal punishment for often I feel that I died a long time ago and this is just my ghost walking this earth who longs for its eternal home.

  61. cbrown says:

    I just listened to “Discover the Word” for today,6/17. I want to shout Praise God!It confirms what you have said Foreverblessed. I have a new view of Hebrews 4:12.

  62. poohpity says:

    lol Chris, I was just going to post that good word isn’t it?

    If I could only keep in mind that the teaching of others and my self included at times have selfish motives but if we could point people to learn from Jesus just as He told us, “”Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matt 11:28-30

  63. oneg2dblu says:

    Chris… good call out.

    Thanks for seeing the community effort here, and not seeing a personal selfish motive working in the process, but finding the right leaning process that comes out of it when we all get to express ourselves, and even receive rebuke, or correction without finding any wrong motives, or malice.


    We are none of us yet perfected here, so all our chosen words, our posts intentions, our references, and our thinking is not always exactly as we would wish it to be, but we must speak out to be heard.

    Thank you for speaking out, and for speaking to resolve the word choice conflict.

    To us all…

    And this is the major point I trust we will all see working out here, we must also stand up as being able to be corrected, when corrected, and not silently sleeking away, as hiding like Adam and Eve tried, or avoiding others comments, or intentionally changing the comment direction as if redirecting gets one off the hook.

    We need to be learning from each other, sometimes more about ourselves, and sometimes more about each other in the process, and that is what makes a community work as it should.

    I know we all have our hearts stead on Christ here, and in keeping with that premise, I trust we all have our salvation.

    I was not ever being selfish in my motives, and some here can see that, others may not.

    All I wanted to do was to correct the way the topic could be interpreted by the use of words that were first used, from their allowing any perspective of casting a falsehood.

    There is a “huge difference” between looking for guidance through reading the law for guidance, and looking for the law to bring you life or salvation, or whether you threaten your safe place in Christ by doing so, and falsely think you will find you are back under the law again, if you do.

    Thanks Steve, I know my choice of words was strong, very true, and I’m sure all others here would not choose such strong language.

    But, they were directed at word choice only, not at devaluing the person behind the words, as I was calling out strongly, the essence of falseness in thinking that one can not ever find guidance in the written word contained in the law, without coming back under the law.

    That’s it, no other motive!

    So, as others have already contributed, We are Under Christ and not Under the Law, and that is what I perhaps should have posted as well.

    I might add, we can all look to Christ (and) the Entire Word of God for Our Guidance, because, “It is written” to and for us all for many reasons.

    Be Blessed, Gary

  64. street says:

    mart said,”Am wondering whether, together, all of this could be saying something about the love that seems to be at the root of being forgiven, forgiving others, and forgiving ourselves.”

    mart mentioned moses david and paul as intercessors of great faith. in the same way job’s faith in God grew exponentially because of the Person he put his faith in. job was an intercessor of the same in that he interceded on behalf of those who suffer for no fault of their own and found comfort in the One who called him to suffer. should we not receive goodness and adversity with thankfulness? should we not endure for nothing because we know and understand the character, love, and abilities of the One we trust? ok, we don’t “fully” know and understand, but we know what He can do from what is written about Him in the past, our own past, and the promises He as given us for good and not evil. Jesus said only God is good. if you are looking for good i suspect you will find Him. job did!

    side note on job, in the beginning God said job was a righteous man, there was none like him. it was not until after the struggle did job see God. earlier we talked about jacob wrestling with God. we are all job’s and jacob’s! i don’t think God wants it any other way, he is the personal, intimate God that truly delights in His work and craftsmanship. a living work for all occasions.

  65. oneg2dblu says:

    What was Adam Thinking?…
    He was probably thinking just like all other human beings who do not yet have the Holy Spirit living in them, never gently finding God’s inner guidance, that still small voice, that ever challenging of his every motive, or every thought.
    Or, if he did have that other voice, a pure conscience, he did not listen to it, or obey it, so he too innocently or not, sinned by both Omission and Commission, even trying to avoid future contact with God, by separating himself and his mate by hiding first, then when confronted, he tried to put the blame on another, saying, the wife You gave me made me sin.
    He did not have a leg to stand on and was cast from the Garden for disobeying the very word of God which He received directly from God.

  66. street says:

    Habakkuk 2:4 New American Standard Bible

    “Behold, as for the proud one,
    His soul is not right within him;
    But the righteous will live by his faith.

  67. poohpity says:

    Well it hit 118 degrees F here today in Mesa Arizona. Good day to cook an egg on the sidewalk if you like that kind of thing, lol. :-0

  68. narrowpathseeker says:

    Joyce I LOVED your analogy of the see saw as trying to do better as a Christian..especially about the coming down hard part…I was always taller/heavier than most of the kids in my grade school class so I usually got let down HARD.. lol… so I can relate well to that.

  69. jeff1 says:

    Does it matter to God if we walk by faith alone or do we need to do both that is faith and works. This is where Christianity gets complicated and division comes. I do not believe I know the answer to this nor is the answer to be found in the here and now. I was always going to fortune tellers when I was young and though it was only for a laugh among teenagers who were not in anyway taking it seriously one of those fortune tellers has left me amazed by his accuracy in what he seen in my hand. I have great difficulty in understanding how anyone could be so accurate about a certain area of my life that then I had not entered into or even was thinking much about it. There are people who seem to be what we might call as having physic powers. I worked with a man who belonged to the World Church of Christ and he made a comment to myself and another and I believe he knew what he was talking about. He said there were discerning angels and that we should not be led by any of these as while it may seem not very harmful to us God had good reasons for telling us not to go there. This has stuck with me though I only heard it several years ago. It is God and God alone who understands the spirit world and that is why we are told to walk by faith and not by sight. Would God say that if it was not important to our well being, I believe not. In this world where people are looking for answers and they are not looking to God they will go to and believe Physics and sometimes there are those who get it right and the people get more addicted to following them. Personally I believe in this world today God is much more concerned that we walk by faith than by works. There is something wrong about what that fortune teller was able to do but it is only in me talking to a learned man of God that I realised it. My light coincided with his light and it was clear to me. If I had spoken to this man back when I was going to listen to this fortune teller I would not have had the light and his words would have meant nothing to me. God has chosen and made it clear that walking by faith can keep us from falling into pit holes which keep us captive and in a world where there are many pit holes it is by walking by faith that God requires of us for in doing so we strenghten our faith for is weakens our faith when we fall in with people who may not have ungodly motives but are nevertheless leading us astray and into practices that God does not want us to participate in and whether I believe it or not I must trust that God has good reasons for not wanting me to go there. It is in my opinion that God’s desire for us is to walk by faith than by works based on my experience and I do try to do works for I believe it is good for me as a person it suits my personality but I do not believe it is as important as walking by faith.

  70. SFDBWV says:

    Viv though it most likely late in the day there in Northern Ireland, the sun hasn’t risen yet here in the Mountains of West Virginia.

    In the Old Testament Law witchcraft was condemned unto death (Exodus 22:18) .Even so “spiritualism” thrived and still does.

    The famous story of Saul and the witch of Endor (1 Samuel 28:7) has its own set of unanswered questions, like our story of Adam.

    It is all about the very first Commandment (Exodus 20:3), “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”

    If we seek answers we must only go to the source of all things, that being the God of creation. Our trust and belief has to be directed toward Him and Him only.

    Yes there is a spirit world and apart from God it is a dark and dangerous place filled with evil intent. Those who advocate its use are seduced into it by its lure of supernatural phenomena and something in us all are drawn to it, just like eve to the forbidden fruit and may I add, like the moth to the flame.

    God has identified Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the person of Jesus of Nazareth, He dwells within us in the person of the Holy Spirit. There a lot of pretenders to the throne and we must be very careful in what and more importantly whom we place our trust.

    I have a long story that I may tell again sometime, but no energy nor time for it now. Just remember if there is anything to fear in this world or the unseen world, God is above it and we are safe in Jesus of Nazareth the Christ and our Lord. Call upon His name and no other.


  71. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Just got caught up on the Discover the Word series for this week. Thanks cbrown for pointing it out! It is a really good topic. I’m so glad I listened.

    Also just want to say thanks to everyone for putting Scripture references in their posts. It helps me understand what you are trying to say as well as opens my eyes to different facets that I may not have seen before.

    I also like the way hovering over the verses seems to have improved. No matter what device I’m using, the scripture instantly appears in a window without taking me off the BTA site.

    Hebrews 10:23-24

  72. poohpity says:

    What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?

    17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds(works), it is dead and useless.

    18 Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds(works).” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”

    19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds(works) is useless?

  73. remarutho says:

    Good Morning BTA —

    These past days, I have repeated the question, “What was Adam thinking?” We might run to Bible commentaries, different translations, the original Hebrew — or we might swim out into the Sargasso Sea of worldly thinking and practice. (ugh)

    Makes me wonder about the disco ball over Adam’s head and his lavender fig branch in the illustration. (just thinking)

    The most fruitful pathway, it seems to me, is simply to sit with the question — and to listen to my own heart.

    What are you thinking as temptations large and small come your way? Do you (Maru) tune into the wisdom of God leading to faith in Christ? Won’t the Christian disciplines (prayer, Scripture study, praise & worship, abstinence and Christian fellowship) serve to keep the heart and mind steady? (Ps 34:8)

    Cloudy and breezy – 58F here. 78F is forecast.


  74. poohpity says:

    Or could it be other than the Christian disciplines(do’s & don’ts) something as simple as faith and experience what God can do in our lives.

  75. poohpity says:

    I can not ever remember praying or reading the bible or abstinence or worship & praise from Christian discipline but because of a desire that God has put there. A desire to continue to grow in my relationship with our Lord. If I have to praise and worship because I am disciplined to do so then to me it does not come from the heart.

  76. remarutho says:

    Dear Pooh —

    I often turn to the fellowship of Jesus followers for strength, inspiration and the personal stories of God’s great work in lives.

    Had dinner last evening with some folks who used to be meth addicts. I was the one who was inspired, not them so much!


  77. poohpity says:

    I experience Adam’s thoughts everyday in my humanity just because he was born thousands of years ago that same humanity flows through my flesh while living in this tent. I have been freed from the curse he brought upon us to live covered, not in skins of animals, but covered with the blood of the Lamb.

  78. poohpity says:

    Maru, is their story any different than yours? It may be if we think that their deliverance was any different than everybody else. You know like their sin was greater than mine and I think that sometimes that is how folks think. It is us who judges sin in differing severity, God doesn’t, it seems all the same to Him. It cracks me up when folks say well I was raised in a Christian home so I did not do anything so bad but isn’t that disagreeing with what God says in that all sin and fall short of the Glory of God.

  79. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh.. I totally agree with your first post today about referencing how faith without works is dead, that to me, is right on.

    Works to me, do not ever threaten to, or wipe out our faith.
    Because, faith is always the first held position of a Follower, and holding that, we then get to do good works.

    Your next point about being disciplined to worship and praise, thinking to yourself that it does not come from the heart.

    I say, it does come from the heart, but the wrongly motivated side.

    That would be as useless as outwardly reading a rote type prayer every day, feeling you have to, but never allowing it to penetrate your inner being.

    But if we are properly following the loving discipleship of the Holy Spirit living in us, that still small voice, then we won’t feel threatened into action, or certainly condemned if we do not act, or as you said “disciplined,” or feeling we are punished into performing anything we do not want to freely do, which to me, would be clearly answering to the wrong spirit, and with the wrong motives.

    When we follow the right spirit, the Holy Spirit, we will act upon the conviction which leads us to understand that we are blessed as we “get to” worship and praise, and not feel we have to, to avoid further discipline.

    Following the Holy Spirit leads us into feeling the blessings of God, and the other spirit is causing us to miss out on those very blessings!

    So, we agree on that (two). PUN


  80. phpatato says:

    Good morning to All

    Maru, I so agree that the disciplines that a Christian sets up and follows will help to keep our feet planted and our minds set on God. I loved your list. If I may add another one, and this one for me is the one that I have the most trouble with…memorization….memorizing God’s Words. (Years and years of antidepressants plus “enhancers”, has taken from me the ability to remember what it is that I have read, not 10 mins after putting a book down. These drugs have also robbed me of almost all memory of my childrens’ childhoods. Do I find it frustrating – Yes, am I angry – Yes, saddened – Yes, but I still discipline myself to read God’s Word every night before turning the light out, taking comfort knowing that even though I can’t remember what it is I have read, God will see my effort. I have switched up my quiet time to other times in the day without success). Situations will arise where enemy attacks will assault our lives and we will be without our Bibles to take comfort from. Having His words stamped into our memory will carry us through those attacks.

    Spiritual disciplines are the behaviours we place in our lives that augment our spiritual growth and enable us to grow. These disciplines will take a commitment from us to put into place but the rewards we will reap by doing so will make us say it was well worth the effort.

    Sunny with increased cloudiness and rain in the forecast today. High expected to be 26 C/ 79 F.

    Have a blessed day everyone!

  81. phpatato says:

    Hi again

    I do believe that there is a conflict arising on the word discipline.

    There are 3 definitions – to my knowledge – of the word discipline.

    1) regimen or training
    2) punishment
    3) field of study or subject of interest

    Maru and I were discussing possibly two of these meanings…training and putting into place a regimen AND field of study or subject of interest.

    We were not discussing punishment.

    Just to clarify.


  82. oneg2dblu says:

    narrowpathseeker… thank you for your loving advice about how others may use language differently.

    I did not consider that in my quick retort.

    To All:

    Today in the ODB lesson, in the closing statement, this was said, “When God forgives, He removes the sin, and restores the soul.”

    I immediately thought, that does not quite say it the way I was taught.

    I was taught that God removes the guilt, and does not render the punishment of death upon the repented sinner for that sin which was deserved, is forgiven.

    But, the Consequences of that Sin still linger in the world, for the sin is not removed.

    So many times does sin have a ripple effect upon the world
    and many times that damage is already done, and it is still remembered by many, even perpetuating itself as it goes forth and remains virulent and evil, and still has its day.

    “It is not removed.”

    We must be careful how we generalize our words, although they may be set into motion with the goodness of hearts, and intent, they also can be lacking, mistaken, twisted, or worse yet, never even challenged.

    My case in point is this:
    Let’s look at the Original Sin, the one in the Garden, was that sinner ever forgiven, or was the sin ever removed?

    I think not, it may have been concurrently remedied, but it was never removed!

    It still has a ripple effect on all mankind’s nature today.

    Just thinking….

    Could God have removed that sin?

    Of course, butt that sin remains, to still be forgiven and removed, apparently to one renting soul at a time.

    Be Blessed, Gary

  83. remarutho says:

    Hello All —

    Pretty agree with Pat on the possible definitions of “disciplines.” No need to get bunched up on the word, Poohpity.

    Bottom line, disciples keep disciplines. Some days, if your portion happens to be 1 Kings 1, the well may not be overflowing with inspiration. But, faithfulness in coming to the well day after day will bring not only living water but also fruit, in my opinion. Same with prayer and all the other ways of seeking the Lord (along with memorizing verses as you may). God does not want us for fair weather friends.


  84. remarutho says:

    Hoped to write “pretty much agree,” :o)

  85. remarutho says:

    Also, meant 1 Chronicles 1. Slip of the keyboard.

  86. street says:

    what was adam thinking???
    what are we thinking when we forgive someone???
    are our motives godly???
    did our forgiveness restore the lose?

    joyful my redeemer lives, He is a very close relative.

    makes for an interesting living. the interesting part must be the newness.

  87. street says:

    gary you are right in that sometimes there are long acting effects from sin, but i remind you God sometimes forgives and restores completely here and some times extravagant grace is involved. Jesus did many miracles of healing and left His Holy Spirit to take up the work on pentecost. many times people stumble because they are looking for the gift instead of the giver.

    oh to give up our ways and embraces His ways. let His law, “ways” be etched with and iron scribe on our hearts of stone. sound familiar? New Spirit for old spirit, New Heart for dead hearts. hold on to His Word that is your faith.

  88. street says:

    gary that ripple effect is part of the freedom that God gave man as a consequence of his choices. it is not the final word. i think we are called to step in the gap by faith like the good samaritan and the prodigal father. there are many other ways mentioned like doing it for the least of these you did it to Me. forgiveness is restoration of relationship. i have to admit there is repentance involved in it. i don’t think there is restoration with man till there is restoration with God first. i think of paul,the slave and the slave owner who came together in faith. was it a very happy reunion??? God does amazing things!

  89. poohpity says:

    Maru, I just have never felt it was a discipline(as in practice) but a desire. I totally agree with doing those things but I did not look at that as something I had to do like to check off a box on a list of things to do today but just enjoy doing. I put aside reading every morning for four years and experienced an emptiness inside. I need to take my mind captive to the things of God in those forms because if not there is so much my brain gets bombarded with I find it overwhelming sometimes. Don’t you think/feel that sometimes it can just become a ritual without substance?

  90. poohpity says:

    I was thinking we need sustenance to sustain our body our souls need to be fed daily also. I think they is why the Lord refers himself as the bread of life so spending time with Him is a wonderful way to start the day.

  91. poohpity says:

    “I think that is why” not “I think they is why”. I sure can butcher the written English language.

  92. poohpity says:

    Gary, Psalm 103:12, Micah 7:19; Hebrews 8:12; Isaiah 43:25; Jeremiah 31:34

  93. poohpity says:

    So ODB was right. Gary, do you think everyone lies? We give scripture upon scripture and yet you do not seem to believe what they say but rather in only how you read things or what you think.

  94. remarutho says:

    Pooh —

    I know the practice of disciplines can become a dry hole — no water just dust. But, as the days roll by, there are those memorable times when the Lord — God the Holy Spirit — breathes upon that devoted time and gives great joy, nurture and peace — in prayer, Scripture study or worship, praise and fellowship.

    Just saying that the practice of showing up lets us be there when God moves — to prepare us for a challenge or an encounter — an opportunity to witness to someone…so many ways He can put us into service when we allow Him to.

    Also, devotion has gotten me through some very rough patches in my life — when anxiety and being overwhelmed threatened to keep me from functioning day-to-day.


  95. joycemb says:

    Merriam-Webster › dictionary › devotion
    Mobile-friendly – Full Definition of DEVOTION. 1. a : religious fervor : piety. b : an act of prayer or private worship —usually used in plural. c : a religious exercise or practice other than the regular corporate worship of a congregation.

    Maru I love what you just said about devotion. It is my testimony too. The blessing of being devoted to God far outweighs any other experience I’ve ever known.

    Blessings, Joyce

  96. oneg2dblu says:

    pooh… I never did say ODB was wrong, did I?

    I said, they did not say it the way I was taught.

    Yes, they are right in part, as we all can find verses to support a removal of sin premise, as to remove, to blot out, to cover over, to see no more, to not be judged, and the like., I know all those verses as well.

    All are very true.

    But, that sin which is forgiven, is “not removed from our memory,” when we Repent and Receive His Forgiveness, which then Restores Our Soul, is it?

    It is however, blotted out of His ledger keeping, where He sees it no longer, but sin is not removed from our still sinning flesh is it?

    We may sin less, after receiving His Forgiveness, but we are not sinless… so all our sin is not yet removed, is it?

    Nor, is sin removed from the rest of theworld, or the worlds memory either, is it?

    Now off to another bunny trail…

    Yes, I think everyone lies at sometime in their earthly walk, and probably daily for some, or habitually for others.

    Why would you ask that question of me?

    Who is the we, when you say “we give scripture?”

    Don’t you really mean that you and I have both given many scriptures here, that support a particular side of an issue we want to bring to light, giving verse that seemingly some read but do not believe what they say but rather, as you say, “in only how you read things or what you think?”

    Then, we realize we each pick and choose those verses which then support our thinking/doctrine/teaching/point/issue.

    Pretty soon, if we are not careful, we are only citing verses, and then, finding we are no longer open to further discussion.

    Here’s a few for you, though you may not actually believe what they say, but rather in how you read them, or what you think…

    Romans 2:6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13

    Galatians 6:7,8,9,10

    Sorry folks, I’m just making a point.

    Next issue?

  97. joycemb says:

    I know there are many horrific things happening around the world but here in the US we are grieving the deaths of 9 people who were killed by a young man who was in a Bibly study at a church in S. Carolina last night. Praying for the young man as well that through this his eyes will be opened to receive the gospel of his deliverance. May God have mercy on him. God comfort the families/ friends of our sisters and brothers in Christ who were killed.

  98. poohpity says:

    Maru, that is so very true and rightly said about just showing up. Thank you for your patience and just talking with me. Love you Deb

    Gary, I did not think we are talking about us but about God forgetting/forgiving, tossing away sin, restoring. Not about people. Isn’t what God does with it the most important thing?

  99. narrowpathseeker says:

    Gary, you are very welcome. Also your point making was well taken here. :-) I think faith and works is like going to school…sooner or later you have to get out there and practice what you have learned, whether it is nursing, engineering, lawyer, etc….it is one thing to know how to do the job…and it is quite another to know and do NOTHING but tell your patients, supervisor, client, etc, what you know..

  100. narrowpathseeker says:

    Inasmuch as I don’t come here daily, I may have missed what is going on with Regina, but I haven’t seen anything from her in quite awhile. I believe she lived in Texas… with all the horrific flooding down there I am concerned for her.. does anyone know her outside of BTA or has anyone heard anything from her? Thank you …Pearl

  101. oneg2dblu says:

    What a treasure house of blessings we experience when we truly receive God’s forgiveness of sin, that sudden absence of the guilt, the freedom of being released from carrying the weight of the burden that sin can have upon the sinner’s heart.
    To have never known this feeling is to be without finding any evidence of our faith being revealed to us.
    The world can not know this experience which only comes through receiving the Gift of God, the Forgiveness of Our Sin.

  102. phpatato says:


    I too have wondered how Regina is doing because to me, it has been awhile since I have seen her stop by. I join you in your prayers for her.


  103. remarutho says:

    Glad to have a conversation below the boiling point, Pooh. Love you too.

    Prayers going up for Regina. The weather is messing with Texas. May the Lord preserve life in these cataclysms.


  104. foreverblessed says:

    Chris, (Cbrown) thank you for telling about ODB on Wednesday, that was great!
    You felt like shouting:Praise the Lord! That really touched my heart.
    I want to sing praise to God, for helping us out, the birds sing their song this morning, and I was very early.
    “All the earth will sing You praises” the birds surely do.

    It is all about Jesus, our Savior!
    It is all about us, no matter what we try, we fail, and Adam was the first one, if we would have been there first, we would have done the same.

    I was reading the scripture references Mart has given, Romans 5.
    And I kept reading them over and over again, Romans 5:1 to Romans 8:16

    Asking God to illuminate these scriptures.
    I have been saying here that we look to Jesus for guidance. (Sorry Gary, I think it is better you do not read the rest of this) and I have said, that we should not look to the Law, the 10 commandments for guidance, that is like living in the Old Covenant.
    Later I took it back, and it felt like something is wrong, the great joy that I had, like Chris wanting to shout, was gone. It is all about Jesus, and us looking to Him for guidance and help, and our breath and water, our bread and Light!
    Reading in Romans, this kept coming back to me, the good usage of the Law: Paul is saying that the Law aroused sin in him. Is then that what is good, the Law, evil? No, it is just the key function of the Law to produce that effect: to see that we fail. Looking to the Law for guidance, is the Guidance to Jesus.

    Paul exclaims: whatever I try, it fails, what a wretched man I am,Romans 7:21-24

  105. foreverblessed says:


    man who fails


    Romans 7:24-25

  106. foreverblessed says:




  107. foreverblessed says:

    The layout should look like a cross,

    So…. if we, in great distress, crying of our failures, go to Jesus, and know that we are delivered from this body of death, and the Law, rubbing it more and more into our face, now much we have missed the mark, once we are in the arms of Jesus, saved from our sins through Him, His blood, the Cross, do we then go back to the Law for guidance in our life.

    ” 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.”

    Galatians 3:21-25

    Adam was the first who failed, all of us followed and did the same.
    God called Israel, a people who He led into the desert, and gave them the Law on Pentecost, they said: All that You say, we will do….

    and they failed, man fails

    But thanks be to God, in Jesus Christ who saved us
    God saved, is the meaning of the Name Jesus, Je Shua

    Joshua was a type of Jesus. Moses had given the Law, Moses did not go into the promised land.
    I also think that this has meaning for us, now: we have to leave Moses behind, and go with Joshua (Jesus)
    into the promised land.

    Look to Jesus for your guidance, live in the Law of the Spirit, Gal 5:16,22-24

    if you have thoughts of hate, stop them, and give them to Jesus, and start calling for all these traits of the Spirit,
    THAT is how we should live our lives as a Christian, in the Spirit.
    We are a people God has called, and He has given us the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost,
    Jesus had to go to the Father so that the Spirit could be given, John 16:7-10 the Spirit that in Jesus has suffered the beatings the humiliation, the Cross, so that it could be given to us, and heal us, and make us whole, and it gives the Life of Jesus living in us. Rom 5:10
    Paul did not wanted to know anything else, but Jesus and Him crucified, in the Cross we are made whole, that is how it works, it is a mysterious work, a Spiritual work. As the Israelites had to look to the snake on the Cross, and were healed, so we are.

    You could say, I look, and no miracle happens!
    It is a work done deep inside us, bit by bit, by insisting on looking up again and again, we are healed bit by bit.

    And if you look to the Law for guidance, do so, till you come to the point that you see that it is the wrong use of the law, till you are at the feet of Jesus, totally surrendered to Jesus, the flesh crucified and considered dead, no matter how much I tried, I fail, here I am Jesus, You work in me, I have faith in You that You are able to work in me, and through discipleship with Him work out the Spirit of love,
    Gal 5:22-25

    ” But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. “

  108. jeff1 says:

    I tend to use the 10 commandments as my guidelines for life as I learned them and the catechism when I was confirmed. If I broke one of them then I would feel very ashamed and guilty for failing God. Years and years of trying and failing left me weary and believing God’s standards were impossible for me to achieve. I think somewhere along the journey I stopped caring and decided whatever will be will be for I am just a failure when it comes to being a Christain. What saddens me even more is that so many are still being falsely taught and believe they have to achieve perfection to please God. I see having been brought up in a religious Country that religions are more out to show whose religion has got it right than preach the gospel of Christ and I am not surprised to find that the younger generations are turning away from God as a result. There is one thing sure God got it right and religions are proof of that for the only good news of man’s failure is Christ crucified, Christ risen and Christ will come again. The alpha and omega, the first and last, the beginning and the end.

  109. SFDBWV says:

    What was Adam thinking? What are any of us thinking when we go ahead and follow our own inclinations instead of following the advice and instruction of God?

    What do we expect will follow?

    Why then do we complain when it does?

    This Bible we look to for all of our higher thinking can be seen as an explanation as to why life is so unhappy and troublesome as well as where and to whom to look for rescue from ourselves.

    As you can see Viv Ulster is not the only place where senseless violence takes place. The 21 year old that murdered 9 people in SC took their lives and ruined his own in one swift act of hatred. What was he thinking would follow?

    One thing I have learned from studying my own genealogy is that I am the product of their procreation. I am they, they are me.

    We all are Adam, Adam is who we are. From Cain to Steve we all are capable of being the best and worst of Adam’s nature after the fall.

    Friar Gregor Mendel using the seed of thought about Jacob’s dream, concerning breeding, developed what is seen today as the foundation of modern genetics.

    A plant or animal can be altered to produce results in its offspring’s. At the moment of Adam’s act of disobedience his sin nature became an integral part of all of his potential offspring’s nature.

    Jesus offers us all the opportunity to be “born again” to be “a new creature” “in Christ”.

    The problem though as I see it is that the process won’t be complete until that moment when we are all “quickened” and changed at the resurrection. In the mean time we fight the good fight. We run the good race and we do the best we are given to do.

    Adam was covered by the skins of an animal, we are covered by the Blood of God.

    Wet and 64 degrees this morning in West Virginia.


  110. joycemb says:

    Good morning all!

    Forever I love what you wrote; yes looking at the Law for guidance can be a slippery slope so to speak and a snare. Fixing our eyes on Jesus and with the I dwelling Holy Spirit our minds are changed- renewed because of His great love, not by works- lest we should boast.

    I think it takes a divine revelation by the a Holy Spirit to fully understand this, and I know that in my experience that is how God teaches me. I can read the same scripture over and over, then one day it’s like the light gets turned on and suddenly I see!!

    So what was Adam thinking? The same as us all. If God had made us like Him we would know everything all the time, but He made man a little lower than the angels. We can be disobedient again and again and again, which only proves how much ‘lower’ we really are and how much we are not like God, and how we need Him. Yes, I think God IS love and we don’t get that until we realize how much we fail.


  111. oneg2dblu says:

    Gee Lord I failed again to explain a simple law, “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God.”

    But now your written words, like your Ten Commandments, seem to be useless for any guidance to those who now fear they will fall away to their old life of slavery of sin, if they ever look for guidance in your words.

    How tragic this turn of intentions has become for those who now believe a false teaching.

    Your word is a lamp to my feet, not a ball and chain!

    Does not the the law of the “Intoxication of Gradualism,” also apply to the taking down of the Ten Commandments, finding them useless, as they now only offend us, also lead to the taking down of all other things from the opposing eyes of the Sin Nature in common man?
    What is next, the name of Christ, or the Cross?
    Or, are they already under attack?
    “Forgive then Lord for they know not what they do.”
    Be Blessed, Gary

  112. joycemb says:

    If “word” means Jesus, then Jesus’s words are good as gold. I have been rethinking the depth and height of Gods love in the body and Spirit of Jesus, God in the flesh.

  113. oneg2dblu says:

    Here is the list which we should “not look to for guidance,” according to the words of some posting here:

    “The Ten Commandments of God”

    You shall have no other gods before me.
    You shall not make idols.
    You shall not take the Lord’s name in vain.
    Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    Honor your father and mother.
    You shall not murder.
    You shall not commit adultery.
    You shall not steal.
    You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
    You shall not covet.

    There seems to be the a new way of false teaching that only I see developing here, for our more modern thinking minds allow for only other words, to be presented for your guidance…

    For this is the new way of love of God, that we no longer look to His Commands, because His Commands truly a burden some here.

    Or, we can look to His Word, instead of only hearing others interpretations, and find something of value for guidance all throughout the word… Written for a reason…

    1 John 5:3
    “”For this is the love of God, to obey his commands.
    And his commands are not burdensome.”

    Sorry Forever, but I can not at this point in my Walk with the Lord, follow only your thinking, or your leading, on the issue of guidance.

    I see these as guiding verses as well:

    Psalm 119:97 “Oh Lord how I love your law!
    I meditate on it all day long.
    Your commands make me wiser than my enemies.”

    Psalm 119:104
    “I gain understanding from your precepts;
    therefor I hate every wrong path.”

    Psalm 119: 105
    “Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.”

    If they mean to you, that the Ten Commandments are not to be looked at for guidance, then, I’ll pray that your eyes will see again, the value in “All of God’s Word.”

    “All scripture ….”

    Have a blessed day,

  114. oneg2dblu says:

    Sorry again folks, I left a word out when editing my little retort…
    For this is the new way of love of God, that we no longer look to His Commands, because His Commands, (are) truly a burden some here.

    I love those Ten for all the guiding they can bring into us, and this ever darkening world.

    I’ll say no more on my strong view of this matter.


  115. foreverblessed says:

    To address what Gary wrote:
    I told you not to read on, but you did, now I will have to try to explain better to you what is the meaning of us:
    looking to Jesus for guidance, and not to the Law.
    I was thinking, there must be an analogy in this live to explain it.

    Then I was thinking about dance lessons. Let’s say you go to a dance school, as a kid (a girl you are), you are new to dancing. You start in classes which teaches you the basics steps, left foot forward-step 1, right foot forward-step 2, left foot left-step 3 etc etc
    After class and class and class, and then comes the Master of the Dance School, And He comes to you, and gets acquainted with you. He is a handsome man and gentle, and has great humility, and is very kind to you. you get to know Him, and like him better and better. You find out He is the Great Prince, the best dancer on earth. After a while of getting to know Him better He invites you to the big Dance, the greatest date you ever had. You put on your best clothes, the nicest dress, go to the Dance Hall, He takes you in His arms, puts His arms around you, and it feels good. The music starts, and He takes steps, you count 1, 2 3 etc. After a while He says: Let Me lead you, trust me, forget about the steps, I will lead you. Give yourself over….

    Now is my question: You are now dancing, are you still taking steps?

    The steps, being the Law you follow, and the Dancing, looking up to Jesus for guidance.

    Matt 5:21-22 the expanding of the Law, Jesus made it bigger, so big, that it is impossible to live it, unless we have died to the old man, and live in the New way, as Paul explains so well, in Rom 5-8, and Galatians.

    So trust Jesus, and give yourself over to Him, you will NOT disobey the Law, even more, you will go far above and beyond it. Loving those who hate you…

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