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In Honor of our Nitzevets

P1030754King David’s great-grandmother was a Moabite by the name of Ruth. But who was his mother? She is referred to in the Bible (1Samuel 22:3-4), but not named. Only by a tradition of the Jewish Talmud are we told that David’s mother was an Israelite by the name of Nitzevet, the wife of Jesse, and an ancestress of the Kings of Judah.

David does allude to his unnamed mother several times in his songs (i.e. Ps 22:9-10; 27:10; 51:5; 69:8; 71:6; 139:13) and his last reference is the one most often quoted. Without the presumptive and misleading knowledge of modern science, he seems overwhelmed by the thought that it was in the mysteries of his mothers womb that the Lord took a personal interest and hand in forming him (Psa 139.13).

David speaks of the womb as an example of the darkness in which God sees and works (Psa 139:11-12). Yet so conscious is he of the light that I’m wondering whether, in that same moment, he lost himself in the glare. In the middle of praising the wonder of God’s all knowing presence, the King suddenly remembers his enemies, and how perfectly right it is for him to hate them (Psa 139:19-22).

Psalm 139:19–22 (NIV) 19 If only you, God, would slay the wicked! Away from me, you who are bloodthirsty! 20 They speak of you with evil intent; your adversaries misuse your name.21 Do I not hate those who hate you, Lord, and abhor those who are in rebellion against you 22 I have nothing but hatred for them;I count them my enemies.

But is he sure about that? The day would come when One of his sons would give us reason to think otherwise (Matt 5:43).

What do you think? Is it possible that David, while musing in the light and memories of his God, and mother, might have sensed something dark within himself—that prompted him to ask for help— to see danger hidden in the shadows of his own natural fears and anxieties?

In any case what greater honor could a mother be given than to be used by our Father in heaven to give us the gift of life, and a chance to know and rely on him?


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192 Responses to “In Honor of our Nitzevets”

  1. poohpity says:

    Yes David seemed to know what lies within his own heart as he said in many of his other songs like; Psalm 25:11 NLT; Pslam 25:18 NLT. But David also realized the unfailing love, forgiveness and mercy of God.

  2. poohpity says:

    Psalm 25:18 NLT

  3. street says:

    that same moment, he lost himself in the glare.

    the hatred david speaks of is real and true. very difficult to work through yes. if a person does not hate his father and mother sister and brother even there self more than Jesus, they can not be His follower. thinking as wonderful as many have experienced the love of their moms, their love is considered hatred compared the the love Christ has for us. moms can impart physical live, but God gives real life. david was right in that he was conceived in sin and death, but God had other plan even before he was conceived.
    thinking this wilderness experience is like being in the darkness and chaos that the Bible talked about in Genesis. yet the Light still shines and will lead us through it. He is preparing a people for Himself. a Kingdom of priest? happy utero day. i’m still giggling from the last post.

  4. oneg2dblu says:

    The entire word is filled with God’s select use of imperfect vessels to bring about His Plan, and to give fullness to the unequaled perfection found in His Only Son.

    The womb is the perfect environment for God to do his “knitting together,” and fulfilling His filling of the earth.

    His original plan for this has never changed, it is achieved His Way by the coming together of One man, and one woman, who were named in Genesis, and man,y many, more unnamed parents as well.

    That is exactly how we got here also, to be a part in achieving His Command to populate the earth.

    Just thinking…

  5. street says:

    interesting….i am thinking the first adam was a failure and the second Adam was a complete success. thinking prodigal son.

  6. street says:

    Psalm 113:9
    He makes the barren woman abide in the house As a joyful mother of children. Praise the Lord!

    Isaiah 54:1
    “Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no child; Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous Than the sons of the married woman,” says the Lord.

    Galatians 4:27
    For it is written, “Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear; Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor; For more numerous are the children of the desolate Than of the one who has a husband.”

    God blessed the free woman.

  7. oneg2dblu says:

    Adam was no failure when it come to, be fruitful and multiply than Eve was, as both freely obeyed God’s Way to populate the earth.

    It was an overwhelming success, I believe.

    According to the word, God honors marriage and abhors divorce.

    Matthew 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

    Mark 10:9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

    A woman is either barren or child producing by God’s election, not free or captive depending on the fruit of her womb, or her choice to marry a husband.

    I thought that Joseph being a godly man, was very concerned about what having a CHILD OUT OF WEDLOCK would look like, and bring disgrace upon his Mary.

    I believe a “model for marriage,” is what God both ordained and designed in the Garden, and to raise up His Only Son into this desolate world.

    I am sure that God knew what He was doing, when choosing a betrothed couple to introduce the conception of Christ, and that choice assured a godly household with a father and mother.

    Just thinking…

  8. street says:

    A woman is either barren or child producing by God’s election, not free or captive depending on the fruit of her womb, or her choice to marry a husband.

    A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord.

    We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

    For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—

    thinking there is freedom in the yoke of Christ, apart from it only oppression slavery and death.

  9. joycemb says:

    Mart thinking about your last statement. I gave birth to a full term stillborn child (our first). I’ve always envisioned him being “raised” by Jesus or others in eternity. Sometimes I think whether we live to grow and learn about God here or There it’s all good. I believe that the purpose of continual birth/death cycle is so God has His people to continue on the legacy started by Abraham. Teaching others about Him. Loving others and God.

    Also thinking of the Virgin Mary today and what a blessing she was to us all. Happy Mother’s Day Mary!

  10. SFDBWV says:

    Have had little or no time to broach our new subject and even less now. Just wanted to say that the “National” tradition of Mother’s Day was initiated here in West Virginia in a church in Grafton, WV.

    Have more to say concerning the subject if it stays up, but far to pushed at the present time.

    I would like to say what a tremendous difference a mother makes in a man’s life as most often it is the mother who molds the child. Look at the difference in the Bible of sons born to the same father by different mothers and see how they turned out.

    Cold this morning at 36 and starting to rain now at 46.

    Prayers for all the people affected by the fires in Canada.


  11. street says:

    12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

  12. joycemb says:

    Yes, for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Moms, dads, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents alike.

  13. oneg2dblu says:

    Ephesians 5:22 ” Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.”

  14. oneg2dblu says:

    Where slavery is seen as a form of captivity, submitting is more of a form of godly obedience.

    In Christ, we are free to choose to obey and submit ourselves.

  15. remarutho says:

    Good Evening All —

    We must take the question to heart:

    “Is it possible that David, while musing in the light and memories of his God, and mother, might have sensed something dark within himself—that prompted him to ask for help—to see danger hidden in the shadows of his own natural fears and anxieties?”

    In the darkness of our human nature, we trust in God alone:

    “Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am being tempted by God’; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

    “But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.

    “Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

    “Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

    “Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.”

    In the darkness of the womb, there is hope of birth into newness of life. Jesus told Nicodemus, “You must be born again from above.” (John 3:7)

    As our mothers gave us birth, so Jesus, the light of the world, emerging from the dark tomb gives us New Life.


    68F and sunny here

  16. joycemb says:

    Gary read the whole passage and you will find it talks about mutual submission as we submit to one another as Christ did as an example to us. Washing feet, healing, not claiming to rule over others but in love to serve others.

    Thank you Lord for delivering me from paternalistic, abusive fundamentalism. I believed your interpretation once Gary because it was the environment I was raised in. Thanks to God for setting me free!

  17. joycemb says:

    Letting go of my anger now. Triggers everywhere it seems; God is still working in me.

  18. street says:

    Galatians 6:15
    For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

    Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything,…………………. but faith working through love.

  19. street says:

    interesting point joycemb was looking up the word conceived in maru’s post. i get the idea of making something like and idol. only thing is it doesn’t bring life. stay in the Light so it keeps shining out of you. stay free.

  20. jeff1 says:

    I do not always understand the Holy Spirit at work in me and that is why I wander because I have misunderstood God’s intention while I noticed my father being a very disciplined and intelligent man did recognize the Holy Spirit at work in him and as a result did what was Godly rather than his belief of what was Godly.

    My beliefs can get in the way of God’s intention if I do not recognize the Holy Spirit working in me.

    This world gets in the way of me knowing God because I am not disciplined enough to stop it and failure leads to grieving the Holy Spirit. It is ignorance of the Holy Spirit that causes my distress and leaves me with depression.

    Depression is a consequence of my failure and not God’s. It always comes back to the Cross because without Him I would be nothing, without Him I would be lost.

  21. poohpity says:

    All great baseball players have more strikeouts then they do home runs. Failure does not mean someone is a failure it means we have to go at it again but we have always learned something. All the great people in the Hall of Faith experienced failures and with those failures we learn how enormous God’s grace truly is.

    In David’s Psalms he records over and over again his sins, emotions, faults, failures and every other little thing he experienced and in most it ends with praise to our merciful God. His mum must have done a good job helping him to be honest about what goes on inside his mind and heart because only in that honesty can we cling to what a forgiving God we love.

  22. poohpity says:

    And it is those mom’s that most often are in the background and not mentioned like Nitzevets but the contribution in the lives of their children is enormous and that even means the times they have not been a perfect parent.

  23. poohpity says:

    Our Daily Bread for today is very good.

  24. SFDBWV says:

    Would like to also thank Mart for explaining that some things relevant to the OT are not found in the OT, but rather in other writings well known to Rabbis of the Hebrew Faith of both orthodox and Christian scholars.

    I have no idea who the painting is of Mart has offered, but I did not think it all that flattering.

    One should not remember mothers without honoring the Virgin Mary. A very remarkable young girl and through whose linage the title of King was bestowed upon Jesus.

    Again I will say that if you compare all other religions against Christianity, what shines through is mercy, forgiveness and hope through Jesus of Nazareth and as a result of the cross.

    In all the other religions it is up to you to win out over evil and improve yourself by yourself. The practice of finding atonement through the blood sacrifice of animals as is the orthodox belief in Judaism is not even practiced as they have no Temple in order to practice their archaic belief.

    Just trust and believe that there is no other way to find peace except through the peace that Jesus obtained for us and leave it there. Quit trying to split hairs and think we need to know every detail, because the result is that we are saved by the blood of Jesus and can rest in Him, our Ark of safety.

    I just returned from voting, without doubt this is the worst situation any of us has ever seen or could imagine for the democratic republic of the United States of America.

    Everyone senses it, everyone feels it, it is a time to back up and get close to God and find comfort under His wings.

    50 degrees and rain.


  25. street says:

    poo you are right our daily bread is quite good today in it is described how we are to live and work. not only did He not leave us orphans He also left us the tools for success, not as the world gives but as God gives.

  26. jeff1 says:

    Believe me Steve voting here is no better and only 55% of people here voted in (Northern Ireland) because the younger people are fed up with the same old attitudes and nothing changes.

    I have found refuge in Christ and I am staying there because all I here among fellow believers is arguments about God instead of Christians helping each other out they are more bothered about whose right and whose wrong.

    It is God who is right and the rest of us may or may not be right but it is God being right that matters for when all is said and done it is by His blood we are saved and by His power we are raised. Glory to Him in the Highest.

  27. oneg2dblu says:

    jotce… I have read the rest of the chapter and fully understand how it talks about both the man and the woman’s responsibilities to God and each other in marriage.
    Yes, it tells both men and women what is expected of them to live a godly married life.
    I only cited one part, just to say that a women is not a captive, but instructed to submit to her husband, and not to feel trapped or captive.
    So, I do not have an interpretation of anything one-sided, over-ruling, or over-bearing. I just shared what the word says about a woman’s position.
    Those instructions are from the word. Written for a reason. Period.
    They are not specific to my particular interpretation, being that I am a man, they are however, specifically talking to a women.
    The heading in my bible says, “Instructions for Christian Households.”
    God is a God of order and structure, if there is any chaos, it is of man’s making.

  28. joycemb says:

    God’s ways have nothing to do with what our opinion is of Him or how we interpret scripture. Reading a portion of scripture and applying it according to our opinion or fleshly bent only skews the whole message and likeness of God in the body of Christ.

    Thinking about Jesus’ life here. It seems like a lot of chaos yet God had a plan. The early church had to address those with the Jewish lifestyle, and what they knew. Much of scripture is addressing a Godly lifestyle from a Jewish mindset. Very very different from our culture. We too often interpret what is being told the culture at that time with how we live, think, and act now. When God’s people hurt God’s people then it’s time to rethink maybe how we do interpret Holy Scripture.

    There will always be chaos because the world is cursed. Even in Christian households, even those who may think they are correctly applying the Word to their own family. Check out any news source and you will hear of Christian households in chaos. Wondering why in your interpretation there still is chaos? The Christian lifestyle is so much more that rules for living only. Not to say that rules aren’t important; I respect others in many different ways, obey traffic laws, am a good citizen and steward etc. If God uproots me from my family, which He has done for His good purpose, I still love God and others, and respect my family even in the chaos of life.

    I’m not good at apologetics and missed the mark badly here by it’s what I’m able to communicate.

    Many Christian women have been abused by godly men that took the word ‘submission’ to mean do as I say and don’t ask any questions. So much pain in so many ways. That is not God’s plan for His family. Why taking one passage out of context adds to the chaos in the world.

    We are all equal in Christ. Differing strengths and gifts yes, but all equal.

  29. joycemb says:

    PS, Don’t ever tell a woman how she should feel! Just a little free advice :-)

  30. oneg2dblu says:

    Never said how you should feel.

  31. oneg2dblu says:

    There is nothing I’ve ever seen in God’s Word that says a women should expect to be abused by her man, or should submit to any type of abuse from anybody.

    Spousal Abuse, sexual abuse, and self defecation of all types is rampant in this confused and sinful world where people today even doubt their own sexuality, or choose to try to change it, to deny what God has given them because they “feel” they deserve/desire something else.

    Yes, Chaos is everywhere, everywhere where, “All a man’s ways seem right to him.”

    God lays out for us in very clear language which way to live a structured obedient lifestyle that will promote or us the best He has to offer.
    We get to choose how we want to live, or how we feel we should live, if our choices ultimately do not align with His Word, we can expect chaos.
    God gives us His structure for the operation of the church, and we get to choose how we want to do church, if it does not align with God’s Word, we can expect chaos.

  32. joycemb says:

    Gary said: “I only cited one part, just to say that a women is not a captive, but instructed to submit to her husband, and not to feel trapped or captive”.

    Again, never tell a woman how to feel.

  33. joycemb says:

    I do agree though that a woman should never feel trapped or captive but by Christ. A real joy for sure!

  34. street says:

    thinking about rahab ruth, and mary. they filled their parts in the Gospel story and were written down in the Scripture. you can also bet they did many other things too that are not recorded for our study. the fact that davids mothers name is not even mention is amazing. i wonder if the Christian life, that is in harmony with the Spirit, would be the same. in other words, self would be irrelevant that Christ would be magnified?

  35. street says:

    thinking of the bride groom coming. as long has the husband is alive the woman is bound to her husband…..it’s going to be a very marriage.

  36. street says:

    ops very long marriage.

  37. joycemb says:

    The canon of scripture only tells us what the various councils decided, as led by God, to include in it. The human mind as the Spirit is poured through it. Not perfect by what God has decided. There is so much left to ponder about living in life as we do without clear answers to every question or situation we struggle with.

    Example: Homosexuality. I’ve learned so much about this situation starting in college and still reading about it. The hatred/fear/condemnation is based on limited understanding and unjust Bible interp. by some really solid Christians, I believe. I was once one of those types.

    Still growing in grace and knowledge here.

  38. joycemb says:

    Gary as for being happy and accepting whatever “God” has given us is not a good argument. If God “gives” me a third arm for instance, would it not be disrespecting God to have it removed? Because I don’t feel like having a third arm dangling from my chest?

    Same with hormonal/genetic issues. Yes, some people will do whatever they feel. I saw a pic of a woman who has decided to become a lizard and has had things removed and things added and changed her identity to “it”. Now that’s disrespecting God, our creator as human beings made in His image.

    Thinking too much here, friend Gary. Thanks for putting up with my spew. We all have our ‘stuff’ don’t we?

  39. joycemb says:

    Street, a very good reason to choose a spouse wisely. Like-minded and self-less.

  40. oneg2dblu says:

    Gary as for being happy and accepting whatever “God” has given us is not a good argument.

    Yet, “God so loved the world that He gave us His Only Son,
    whoever believes in Him shall have eternal life.”

    It seems to be the third arm argument for most of the rejecting world, that want even his name removed.

    Just thinking…

  41. joycemb says:

    Gary you took my statement out of context and made me sound like a Christ hater. Typical fundamental terror tactic.

  42. jeff1 says:

    Thinking how my Christian upbringing is very much part of me and someone else’s is so much part of them.

    My friend who was brought up evangelical can upset the more religious upbringing I had.

    I am talking about as mothers and how different we see things.

    When my son decided to join the military I was not over the moon about it because I worked with the military all my life and had inside information that I would have been better not knowing.

    I remember my friend reassuring me it was God’s calling for him and I should accept it as such.

    I was having a conversation with my friends son in front of his mother and he blurted out to me what did I think of the fact that his mother had tore up his application for the military and refused to let him join up.

    My friend was quiet and changed the subject because she knew I must have been wondering why she had never mentioned to me that her son had wanted to join the military.

    I remember being upset at her for I felt she had been hypocritical in saying it was God’s calling for my son while she did not see it the same for her son.

    I started to think about the differences in the personalities of her son and mine and realized that they where very different in their make-up.

    In doing so I came to the conclusion that my friend had got it right my son was suited to military service while her son was not.

    The evangelical teaching in her meant she was able to distinguish that, while it took me to look deeper into it because I did not have her knowledge.

    What my friend has been doing since her childhood is recognizing the work of the Holy Spirit and it comes as natural to her as breathing.

    I on the other hand was raised on rules and regulations and they comes to me as natural as breathing.

    What I learned as a child is difficult for me to erase because I see authority as part of God’s plan and as such I look to rules and regulations for my guidance.

    My friend is guided by the Holy Spirit and her and I would disagree as she sees the rules to be bent accordingly.

    I view her as bending the rules to suit her self while she says that I am naive about the authorities.

    There is truth in what we both say but it is still Jesus who has saved us by His blood and will raise us by His power.

  43. SFDBWV says:

    In a world of contrasts nothing is as simple as “black and white”, but what happens when things turn “grey?

    Mart mentions Psalms 139:19-22 as an example of David hating God’s enemies. What happens though when God’s supposed enemies look like and even sound like Christians.

    We read whereas there are a lot of “things” God hates, but little if any is recorded of His hatred of any person.

    David wants God to kill off His enemies, because they are a threat to David’s life and or way of life and it may be seen that David tries to convince God as to why God should hate them too.

    Unfortunately life isn’t always absolutes and things aren’t always seen as black and white.

    Homosexuality is abominable, it is written, to God. Yet is the homosexual? Murder is abominable to God, yet even though David was a murder and clearly has murder in his heart, he remains the “apple of God’s eye” as is written. Interesting that when David is “punished” for his murder of Uriah and adultery with Bathsheba it is an innocent “unborn” child who pays the price.

    Let me just say in closing that there is a lot more to what is written in Scripture than understood by the minds of we who read it. Very little it turns out is as simple as black and white and it is there in that grey area where can get into muddy water, lost and confused. I have found when that happens to back up to the beginnings and stick with the basics of what we know for sure.

    Another wet cool/cold day in the Appalachia’s 54 degrees.


  44. poohpity says:

    2 Samuel 12:18 NLT David knew that he would see his baby again in heaven in verse 23. So death is a loss for those still living but hope for those who believe for a future of being reunited.

    All sin is abominable to God yet Jesus paid the ultimate price for it. As Mart wrote that David sensed the dark within his own soul and prompted him to ask for help. Psalm 65 “All of us must come to you. Though we are overwhelmed by our sins, you forgive them all. Psalm 69:5 NLT; Psalm 70:5 NLT

    After David mentioned his hate for God’s enemies he went back to asking God to look within his own heart for those things that David did that were not pleasing to God (Psalm 139:23-24 NLT) because as Mart said he knew that there was darkness within himself that he needed to ask for help for.

  45. joycemb says:

    Good morning all!

    Steve, I submit to you that under the new covenant all sin is an abomination to the Lord. I do know homosexuals that have chosen abstinence as a way of honoring their relationship with Christ. As have I myself chosen abstinence over sexual immorality to honor Christ. As I researched the word ‘abomination’ this morning I find there are many, many verses in scripture describing sin. Not just homosexuality.

    I believe to use that word in describing only homosexuality and always using it in reference to that is hateful and hurtful. I myself would find it hard to accept grace if I was referred to as an abomitable immorally sexual whatever. (Which I was at one time, actually)

    There once was a time when slavery was deemed righteous according to scriptures picked and chosen to confirm what some FELT was needed and important to them; to somehow make sure the body of Christ remained unpolluted by sinful behavior. (Yes I’ve felt that puffed up myself in the past).

    Human sexuality is on a different type of stratum than slavery, or even women teachers in the church (other issues taken out of context). But my point is we all need to approach scripture as to what it says over all, and not to suit our own personal agenda with finely picked words that use shock value to belittle others and give ourselves a sense of self-righteous indignation. I AM SPEAKING ABOUT MY OWN SELF HERE. I once was one that picked and chose certain ‘themes’ to prove my rightness and other’s wrongness, if you will.

    God is so much more than we can even begin to imagine. Learning and leaning every day.

    blessings, Joyce

  46. jeff1 says:

    My imagination never was good and the truth is I have exhausted myself learning about God and His rules and now realize I do not know God at all.

    I am too tired to start all over again so I have taken refuge in the God who has loved me all along but I was too blind to see it.

    I have found contentment in knowing that God loves me more than I can ever imagine and I have hope for those who have still to know God loves them too.

  47. jeff1 says:

    Love divine, all loves excelling,
    Joy of heaven to earth come down;
    Fix in us thy humble dwelling;
    All thy faithful mercies crown!
    Jesus, Thou art all compassion,
    Pure, unbounded love Thou art;
    Visit us with Thy salvation;
    Enter every trembling heart.

    Breathe, O breathe Thy loving Spirit,
    Into every troubled breast!
    Let us all in Thee inherit;
    Let us find that second rest.
    Take away our bent to sinning;
    Alpha and Omega be;
    End of faith, as its Beginning,
    Set our hearts at liberty.

    Come, Almighty to deliver;
    Let us all Thy life receive;
    Suddenly return and never,
    Never more Thy temples leave.
    Thee we would be always blessing,
    Serve Thee as Thy hosts above,
    Pray and praise Thee without ceasing,
    Glory in Thy perfect love.

    Finish, they Thy new creation;
    Pure and spotless let us be.
    Let us see Thy great salvation
    Perfectly restored in Thee;
    Changed from glory into glory,
    Till in heaven we take our place,
    Till we cast our crowns before Thee,
    Lost in wonder, love, and praise.

  48. joycemb says:

    Mart I looked up the artist and read her bio on her website. Knowing a little bit about the author (Jennifer Jones) and rereading your post and especially Psalm 139:13 it makes more sense to me now. And, is especially relevant in an age where we still tend to blame the parents/mothers often for our mistakes. Oh the wonders of God!

  49. street says:

    steve said,”In a world of contrasts nothing is as simple as “black and white”, but what happens when things turn “grey?

    Mart mentions Psalms 139:19-22 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] as an example of David hating God’s enemies. What happens though when God’s supposed enemies look like and even sound like Christians.”

    let faith prevail, working out in love.

  50. SFDBWV says:

    Feeling as though I have to clarify my comments some.

    Mart is offering us a Psalm whereby David is speaking of hating his enemies and wanting God to kill them. Trying in some way to convince God to hate them as well.

    I used the hot button issue of homosexuality because it is a hot button issue and one clearly seen as explaining my point that while God hates homosexuality, that does not mean that God hates the homosexual person. Quite the contrary He died for them as well as for me.

    Though I know of only twice that God killed off whole groups of people Himself. One being the original creation by the flood of Noah because man had become utterly evil. Genesis 6:5-8 KJV and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah “because their sin is very grievous”. Genesis 18:20 KJV

    If you want to debate the issue of homosexuality fine, but don’t expect me to say it is acceptable behavior, because it is no more acceptable than murder. And while both are forgivable under grace no one should be testing that concept by practicing either under the guise that they can continue in sin knowing they are in sin and expecting it to be ok because of grace. It actually don’t work that way at all.

    And instead of worrying about hurting someone’s feelings because homosexual behavior is called abominable, I would think that knowing it is a very serious, even special sin that grieves God enough for Him to say so, should be more important for that person to understand.

    Grey areas are always grey and cause confusion. Satan getting credit for that talent, causing confusion. While I am a firm believer in grace over law, I still can clearly see right and wrong as black and white.

    Not liking the negative feeling the thread is taking, so I will apologize for upsetting anyone, but never for telling the truth.


  51. joycemb says:

    Thank you Steve for listening to me. blessings, Joyce

  52. oneg2dblu says:

    Joyce says…”Gary you took my statement out of context and made me sound like a Christ hater. Typical fundamental terror tactic.”
    Joyce… No! It is you that took my statement out of context, about how the world would like “a third arm,” try to remove it from all their context.

    There are no terror tactics going on here from me, I’m just sharing some elemental truth about the world’s condition.

    As they are the real Christ Hater’s.

    I feel like Steve, having to revisit every point I make.

    The most troubling thing about practicing any homosexuality is that it causes both Souls to enter into sin.

    If anyone is a Christ Follower, than their very body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, and what right does any individual possessing that Holy Spirit have, intentionally continuing their act of polluting their very Soul, by deliberately ignoring/disobeying/or denying, the actual Word of God about this very specific behavior?

    Yes, the truth will no longer be tolerated in a society where man only wants what he wants, regardless of what God wants from/for him.

    I thought the word said, “Resist the Devil and he will flee from you.”

    Or, for those who do not like scripture, let us use more common words, “If you continue to play with fire, you will eventually get burned.”

    Or, “Choose to Sin, Choose to Suffer!”

    That is pretty black and white to me.


  53. joycemb says:

    The Bible Steve also names other things that are an abomination to God, yet these things are not called out amongst Christians as are homosexuality. Wonder why? Proverbs 6:16-19 KJV

  54. joycemb says:

    Oh gotcha Gary, the one thing had nothing to do with the other, my bad. Sorry.

  55. joycemb says:

    Enjoying the discussion. Just glad it’s something different for a change. Nothing personally against anyone, just talking and thinking. :-)

  56. oneg2dblu says:

    Let’s not make the pain and suffering that David and Bathsheba endured, through the loss of their child, because of the sins committed.
    God did not excuse those actions, He instead made a judgment upon them.
    Yes, Yes, eventually, things were healed over, but just as all sin is pleasurable for a period, we can see that after that sin, much pain was then encountered, and endured.

    There is a cost to pay, it is levied upon those who think they are freely sinning now, and getting away with it.

    Deception, is the color found in the many shades of gray that the world promotes, enjoys, and allows to appearing as innocent, to all who seek out such shaded evils, as being harmless.


  57. oneg2dblu says:

    Joyce… thanks for seeing that my thoughts were not a personal attack, but a more general profession.

  58. oneg2dblu says:

    Sorry, let’s not make the pain and suffering they endured, so short lived, or easy, or non-consequential.
    It was devastating, and huge!

  59. joycemb says:

    God dealt differently with people before Christ came. (There are of course consequences to how we handle our lives: smokers have increased chance of lung cancer, overeaters,(like me) have issues with heart, cholesterol, joint pain, etc. Walk in front of a car and you’re going to get run over.)

    However, I would never call it God’s judgement. Which unfortunately some like to do. God is so much more, He’s justice, mercy, humility and grace, etc.

  60. joycemb says:

    Job 16:16-17 KJV

  61. poohpity says:

    I think bringing up homosexuality because that is one of the sins most may not be guilty of which puts one in the place of comparative righteousness. Then no one needs to look at the areas in their own life that opposes God’s standards by saying this sin is worse than that sin which is looking at things with fleshly wisdom not God’s. But comparison is not an accurate barometer if it is not compared to God’s standards. So homosexuality is a easy one to point out but what about lying, unforgiveness, lack of love, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy? ALL sin and fall short of the glory of God so why pick on just one? I guess it is just to be able to say, Oh I would never do that! but God says what about ____or_____or_____?

  62. poohpity says:

    I respect David so much because he asked God to look inside him to find those things that grieved God. That is what makes it so important to read the bible because it seems like a mirror to reflect our own true nature then we tend not to look at others but go to our knees with a grateful heart that we have been shown such amazing grace. It seems when we look at the sin of others God’s grace grows dim and some begin to think it is earned or deserved but it is not at all.

  63. poohpity says:

    But is he sure about that? The day would come when One of his sons would give us reason to think otherwise (Matt 5:43-44 NLT) So was David sure that God wanted him to hate God’s enemies when later Jesus taught otherwise? God never changes and Jesus revealed God to us.

    We are taught what grieves the Holy Spirit; “And do not bring sorrow to God’s Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption.

    Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of evil behavior. Instead, be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God through Christ has forgiven you.”

  64. street says:

    just thinking…..if you break one law you are guilty of breaking the whole law. so ensues death.
    thinking further….if we are all prostitutes, leopards and idolators and God imputes righteousness to the sinner, who am i to argue?

    a truly remarkable thing is learning to live.

  65. joycemb says:

    leopards? LOL you had me going for a minute Street. do you mean lepers?

  66. joycemb says:

    Learning to live IS a truly remarkable thing! What a journey life is!

  67. poohpity says:

    I do not think having leprosy is a sin. Sin seems more like actions, attitudes, motives that bring harm to our relationship with God, others and our selves.

  68. SFDBWV says:

    Interesting to me that David’s unborn son died as a result of the sins of David and Bathsheba.

    A precursor to the fact that a descendant son of David would die not only for he and Bathsheba’s sin, but for the sins of all mankind.

    Leprosy may not be a sin, but God gave Miriam leprosy for her sin of murmuring against God and Moses. And took it away to show His mercy and grace.


  69. poohpity says:

    Steve, I think if you read 2 Sam 12 you will find that the child was born and living, not unborn.

  70. joycemb says:

    In the OT times lepers we’re considered unclean so were not allowed to mingle with those who were ceremonially ‘clean’. Just like prostitutes and idolaters as street mentioned.
    Christ has made all clean through His blood, the new covenant.

  71. poohpity says:

    So a contagious disease is the same as idolaters and prostitutes? I think there is a big difference, no one can help getting a disease and the uncleanliness to me is also different one is outward and the other is inward.

  72. poohpity says:

    I guess I should have given the the verse in 2 Samuel 12:14 that proves the child was born.

  73. poohpity says:

    Steve, you said, “A precursor to the fact that a descendant son of David would die not only for he and Bathsheba’s sin, but for the sins of all mankind.” That is a very good point.

  74. joycemb says:

    Yes Pooh check out the OT laws.

  75. joycemb says:

    Even women who had their monthly cycle were considered unclean.

  76. joycemb says:

    Remember the scandal of Jesus touching the woman who had had an issue of blood for 12 years I think it was? Jesus sure changed things! What was once considered unclean is now clean because of Jesus.

  77. street says:

    poo said,”So a contagious disease is the same as idolaters and prostitutes? I think there is a big difference, no one can help getting a disease and the uncleanliness to me is also different one is outward and the other is inward.”

    yes poo, any privation of good is a sin. God in His mercy sustains us in our miserable choices and failures. He uses them to reveal what we are and Who He Is. when we understand His great love things start to take on a whole new view of things. God is free to raise His children to conform to the image of His One and Only Son.

    oh, i am not accusing God of sin like job did. we saw how that worked out. God has a Plan and is Sovereign. job found out He want to be his Sovereign on a much closer level then he had before.

  78. joycemb says:

    Steve and Gary, have you read Our Daily Bread today? So powerful and it really speaks to me coming from the same background as you guys. Blessings to you both, Joyce

  79. poohpity says:

    Yes there is a difference in outward uncleanliness and inward uncleanliness. Joyce I have read the law several times and understand the difference in outside and internal. Jesus referred to it also in the NT in Matt 23 looking clean on the outside is not what Jesus was teaching about but what is in our hearts that seems to where He works on us. I have no idea how this got twisted into leprosy being a sin, people lived on the outside of camp because it was a contagious disease to prevent it from spreading as were many laws in the OT were to prevent illnesses from spreading.

  80. joycemb says:

    Being unclean kept people from being able to offer sacrifices for their sins at temple. Although temporarily in most cases and for the reason of the health of the whole community, lepers were essentially banned forever as there was no cure. Therefore they were unable to receive forgiveness of any sin they committed. Because of the law. Jesus changed all that!
    Prostitutes generally worked in pagan temples. Those that did not were still banned from temple sacrifice, yes. But again, Jesus changed all that. Jesus went outside the camp, the status quo to sacrifice Himself for us.

    OT is not my strength as far as study but thank you all for this discussion as God is teaching me wonderful things I needed to think about, again, on a very deep level. God is so good to me.

  81. street says:

    Song of Solomon 4:8
    “Come with me from Lebanon, my bride, May you come with me from Lebanon. Journey down from the summit of Amana, From the summit of Senir and Hermon, From the dens of lions, From the mountains of leopards.

    35 The high places, however, were not removed;

    Jeremiah 13:23
    “Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil.

    ouch that one hurt.

  82. joycemb says:

    Thank you street. Yes, with God all things are possible.

  83. poohpity says:

    In the OT the priest’s often offered temporary sacrifices on behalf of the whole community even those who had to live on the outskirts. Jesus who is God touched the lepers. God is the same in Old and New testaments and forgiveness was given to those who admitted their sin as David showed us in his many songs. The sacrifices of the OT themselves are the one’s who had to be perfect without blemish or illnesses not the people they were offered for.

  84. street says:

    Hebrews 2:10 God, for whom and through whom everything was made, chose to bring many children into glory. And it was only right that he should make Jesus, through his suffering, a perfect leader, fit to bring them into their salvation.

    Hebrews 7:19 For the law never made anything perfect. But now we have confidence in a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

    Hebrews 7:28 The law appointed high priests who were limited by human weakness. But after the law was given, God appointed his Son with an oath, and his Son has been made the perfect High Priest forever.

    Hebrews 10:14 For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy.

    faith working out in love.

  85. oneg2dblu says:

    I know we can all call each other out on certain things we say here, or confess openly here, but still practice in our own sinful and fallen lives daily, (but,) when we ignore what the Word of God says about certain behaviors, and one or more of those behaviors are what we still practice daily, then, we alone must bear “that cross” as we are on your own, because Christ does not ever support, has never supported, and will never support ongoing sin in your life.
    If fact, the word teaches us we are to “Hate Sin.”
    We can not Serve two Masters as we will Love on and Hate the other.
    So, it just does not work, according to the word of God, Revelation 21:8 still stands, and all our wishful thinking will never erase that word that is written there, “for a reason.”
    There are those who are or will be victorious, and they will inherit much, bu,t the list of those practice certain behaviors are not the victorious ones.

    If they were, then, the writer of Revelation would be guilty for lying himself.

    Just thinking…

  86. oneg2dblu says:

    Revelation 22 must both be be read fully, and understood as well.
    We certainly must not take away or add to them either.

  87. oneg2dblu says:

    We can read them and weep, or read them and rejoice.

    Because, “Just like how we choose to live our lives today, the choice is always ours, to change or not to change.”

    We are not talking about skin color or spots here, we are speaking only of certain listed behaviors here, for a reason.

  88. poohpity says:

    Gary, just who is it you are accusing of supporting sin or practicing sin daily? Or is this another of your blind accusations and assumptions? It must be you since the only person you really know is you!! Romans 2:1

  89. poohpity says:

    If Jesus didn’t come to condemn the world, that’s probably not our mission either!

  90. narrowpathseeker says:

    Gary, thank you for caring enough to point out things that are not taken very well by some.

  91. street says:

    gary let me press your point a little further.
    thinking that known sin will sink any ship if not dealt with. how about the sins that you are not even aware of?
    kinda puts a person in a real dilemma. the Old Testament speaks of these and it is mentioned following them to judgment as opposed to preceding them.

    Jesus is a High Priest who is more than capable of taking care of all that the Father has given Him to save.

    what a Savior! been thinking about and looking for the things we are to add. not things to follow like rules. the added things are virtues mention by paul and peter. against which are no laws.

  92. poohpity says:

    narrow, just exactly what are you congratulating Gary for? He is accusing someone of something that has not been done by anyone on here. No one has supported sinning nor has anyone told of practicing sin daily? So essentially you are saying thank you for lying against one of his brothers/sisters.

  93. poohpity says:

    That is just sad, totally sad.

  94. joycemb says:

    Interesting…I almost posted a half hour ago then erased it. What I was going to say is how like David we go from thinking we know God, His will, and we want to even hate what He hates. Then we have that uh oh moment when we realize how forgiving God is-even of His enemies. It’s the old ‘be careful what you think of yourself, because God will prove just who you really are’, because He is loving and good, but He’s not safe, as the lion pointed out. We can either preach how evil others are, or how good God is. What do we think will be the most well received? Jesus said “She loved much because she had many sins”, my paraphrase. But the point is if we are not aware of our many sins, or worse are prone to deny them, then we may love little as well. See I Corinthians 13, it describes God.

    I know I keep preaching forgiveness, grace, and mercy, but I’d rather preach that than what you Gary keep preaching: be careful! Watch out! Sinners pay the price! That message doesn’t draw anyone to God. Except those maybe that are so wounded already they expect that God only sees them through their own wounded eyes. Jesus is the great healer of wounds, great and small. If you could see God through my healed eyes, you would be preaching that healing and wholeness that was Jesus’ goal and purpose; not fear or trying hard to please Him with ‘doing church’ and being a strict rule follower.

    Gary I really wish your perspective of God would change, but God maybe will change it, in His time.

  95. remarutho says:

    Good Evening All —

    Mart, you have invited readers here to compare King David’s expression of hatred for enemies to Jesus’ call to love our enemies. Which shall it be?

    Take Psalm 139:11-12, 19:22 – a song of praise for God’s wondrous work in creating the psalmist (and all of us) and set it next to Matt 5:43 – one of the “Beautiful Attitudes”:

    “You have heard that it was said,‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

    Jesus continues: “But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

    “For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
    (Matt 5:43-48)

    With courage and help from the Holy Spirit, each one will apply these Scriptures to him/herself. Are we to hate our sinful self — or have compassion on our sinful self?

    Guilt and self-condemnation can distort the lens through which I view the world beyond myself…causing me to make twisted assumptions about another person’s motives. This leads to war on many levels.

    On the other hand, I can be made whole by Christ’s love for me and in turn “love my neighbor as myself.”

    Grace and Peace,

  96. remarutho says:

    My second Scripture reference is Psalm 139:19-22, not Psalm 19:22. Slip of the keyboard! Maru

  97. jeff1 says:

    Guilt and self-condemnation can distort the lens through which I view the world beyond myself…causing me to make twisted assumptions about another person’s motives. This leads to war on many levels.

    I can relate to this Maru I have guilt because I discovered my father was right and wasted my life in waywardness because I trusted in my own understanding while my father’s views where God driven.

    As for self-condemnation that is my struggle because when you know yourself you are the one who has failed God then there is no one to blame but yourself.

    Gary is right if I suffer from depression it is of my own making and not from God.

    There is days when I hate myself so much I do not want to face the world because having been brought up to keep the commandments and knowing I failed too is a burden I cannot bear.

    I rest in Christ for there is no one else who can free me from the guilt of having failed Him and I am overwhelmed when I experience a peace that surpasses understanding and I wish I could remain in that place but the reality of this world comes in and I am again in the struggle of the war within myself but God does not leave me in my struggle but comforts me by His presence and sends other helpers to comfort me for no one is an Island and God is comforter of all!

  98. cbrown says:

    To quote a contributor to this blog, “Love wins”.

  99. tracey5tgbtg says:

    Joyce – Thanks for your comment at 9:22 pm on May 12. I agree wholeheartedly. I definitely agree that the type of preaching that says: “be careful! Watch out! Sinners pay the price!” doesn’t draw anyone to God. However, I think it especially pushes away those who are wounded and broken, who see their sins clearly and feel hopeless about them.

    Like you said, that message doesn’t draw anyone to GOD, but it does draw people who think they are better than others. It draws people who look at other people’s sins and want to see those people punished and exposed, but they can’t do anything about it, so they preach, “watch out, you will pay the price, you will end up in hell.” People like that aren’t interested in drawing others to God. They are interested in seeing people they don’t like face punishment.

    They are drawn to a sense of getting even, but they aren’t drawn to GOD.

    You said, “We can either preach how evil others are, or how good God is. What do we think will be the most well received?” Amen to that! Which is more important: that others are evil or that God is good?

    You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind and strength, this is the GREATEST commandment.

    Maru – great comment. (as usual)

  100. jeff1 says:

    cbrown May 13 5.29 am

    God’s love wins but not man’s love because we put conditions on love that God does not!

  101. poohpity says:

    Mart, what a beautiful tribute to BruceC this morning on Our Daily Bread. I hope his wife has read it. :-)

  102. narrowpathseeker says:

    Pooh, I thanked Gary because I truly believe that he writes here out of genuine concern for others whether he is right or wrong. I also thought a kind word might help him to endure the thorns and daggers that you so proudly and arrogantly use to wound your brothers and sisters. If you want to see totally sad….take a look in that mirror you tell everybody else to look at. In fact try doing everything you tell others to do. I am not going to waste my day any further.

  103. foreverblessed says:

    That David asked God so often that He would kill his enemies,
    that has been such a mystery to me.
    Mart saying that David may found that to be a hidden darkness in his heart could be very true!

    Jesus’ own words of Matthew 5:43 also brings a new light, maybe it was normal to hate enemies in the OT?

    I read the commentary on Matt 5:43 of Alexander MacLaren, that is very interesting! Such a good and graceful sermon, that the godly way to end hatred is not to react with hatred to hatred, but with love. Imagine if God would react with hatred, His whole life would have been a ruin, because of all His enemies! But God stays the same, He loves. Ha ha, Love wins!

  104. SFDBWV says:

    Coming in late to everything this morning. I agree that the Our Daily Bread comments this morning were especially warming. I miss our friend Bruce and far, far too many others to name.

    Foreverblessed (Rita) it is always good advice to try and return a smile for a frown as it is written that a kind word turneth away wrath.

    However it doesn’t always produce the best results. Some people take kindness for weakness and are only encouraged by our good intentions.

    Sometimes it is best to just walk away, but as is also written there is a time for every season, as when not to hug, but rather for war.

    I actually have a longer commentary to write concerning some of the thread conversation, but for now I will take the advice of an old friend and leave it lay for a while and see if I really want to spend that much time explaining my points or myself at the cost of ruffling a few feathers.

    54 degrees and rain, only one day this month without reportable precipitation; cold weather incoming.


  105. poohpity says:

    Hatred, bitterness destroys and hardens hearts and grieves the Spirit of God but love covers a multitude of sin.(Proverbs 10:12; 1 Peter 4:8)

  106. poohpity says:

    David’s mom must have been dedicated to God by the refection of his behavior in his early life. If our children are angry and hateful then as parents what have we taught them?

  107. poohpity says:

    Saul, hated David and sought to destroy him but David even when he had Saul at his finger tips showed mercy by not killing him when he had many chances to do so. David rather trusted God and wrote many songs expressing all his feelings.

  108. poohpity says:

    Oh, what joy for those whose disobedience is forgiven,
    whose sin is put out of sight!
    Yes, what joy for those whose record the Lord has cleared of guilt, whose lives are lived in complete honesty!
    When I refused to confess my sin, my body wasted away,
    and I groaned all day long.
    Day and night your hand of discipline was heavy on me.
    My strength evaporated like water in the summer heat.

    Finally, I confessed all my sins to you and stopped trying to hide my guilt. I said to myself, “I will confess my rebellion to the Lord.” And you forgave me! All my guilt is gone.

    Therefore, let all the godly pray to you while there is still time, that they may not drown in the floodwaters of judgment.
    For you are my hiding place; you protect me from trouble. You surround me with songs of victory.

    The Lord says, “I will guide you along the best pathway for your life. I will advise you and watch over you.
    Do not be like a senseless horse or mule that needs a bit and bridle to keep it under control.”

    Many sorrows come to the wicked, but unfailing love surrounds those who trust the Lord.
    So rejoice in the Lord and be glad, all you who obey him! Shout for joy, all you whose hearts are pure!

  109. poohpity says:

    The above was Psalm 32 and when David sinned with the whole Bathsheba and Uriah thing he wrote Psalm 51. There is always restoration when we go to the Lord and confess.

  110. joycemb says:

    Viv I thought of you as I read Spurgeon this morning as one who like me deals with mental illness.

    Weeping may remain for a night, but rejoicing comes in the morning. Psalm 30:5
    “Christian! If you are in a night of trial, think of tomorrow; cheer up your heart with the thought of the coming of our Lord. Be patient! The farmer waits until He reaps His harvest.”

    I’ve heard you express these same thoughts many times and am so encouraged each time. You are a blessing to me as you do not let life’s trials get you down- for long anyway! We have a hope and a future with our Lord Jesus when we get to heaven. Our patience will pay off in the end.
    Blessings, Joyce

  111. street says:

    i wonder if david lost is mom while he was young? scripture talks about his parents being settle for their protection from saul. it could have been a step mom by then. i am not that failure with wording. any way being the youngest and a shepard taught him to trust and depend on God. when samuel came to town no one gave a thought of david. when he brought supplies to his brothers at the battle line his brothers treated him like and enemy at the gate. yes david loved saul, his sworn enemy, and he payed him back with kindness. i think the enemy david was thinking about was not people. i think of a three year drought and what david did to sauls house. even then grace was present to the house of jonathan.

  112. street says:

    thinking about God’s reply to paul about a deep and constant request to God. He said no and said, ” “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.””

    2 Corinthians 12:9
    And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

    till God tells us no keep praying.

  113. joycemb says:

    Ted M Gossard has a really good post today on his Jesus Community blog. Well worth checking out as we all talk about our differences here.

  114. street says:

    poo pasted, “8
    The Lord says, “I will guide you along the best pathway for your life. I will advise you and watch over you.”

    thanks poo

  115. poohpity says:

    street you are welcome but God has given us so much in His word by those who have gone before us to learn of God’s care when we trust in HIM!! But like you have said many times before, “we have to die to self” and repent or in others words turn to God. So thank you.

  116. street says:

    On the other hand, I can be made whole by Christ’s love for me and in turn “love my neighbor as myself.”

    Grace and Peace,

  117. jeff1 says:

    Thinking about how I never thought it was possible to hate until I witnessed war in my own country. To some extent it was because I belonged to the community who where being targeted and knew personally the victims of war.

    It brought out feelings that I never knew where there and I realized that I was capable of hating just like my enemies where.

    It has been painful but without having come through it I would not have realized how much I need forgiveness myself and how I should not judge others because many have been affected by war or crime of some kind or another and I know it takes time to heal wounds that go as deep as they do.

    Thank you, Joyce, for understanding my illness for unless one has had it, it is difficult to have empathy and often I find I just want someone to understand how I feel and not tell me how I should feel.

    Well meaning people tell you how you should feel but godly people accept how you feel for they know you are in God’s hands.

  118. oneg2dblu says:

    joyce says … “Gary I really wish your perspective of God would change, but God maybe will change it, in His time.”

    I am only sharing His written word’s of warning here, words that must come from God’s perspective, not mine.

    They are His Truth, written for us who will read them and be moved by them, either to make a change, or not.

    So, I’ll let “your perspective” speak to you on how you will receive them.

    I did not create that list of behaviors that lay claim to the Second Death, or those, Who Will Not Enter the Kingdom of God.

    My own personal perspective is in how I personally receive those verses of severe warning.

    I personally, do not shuck them off as a joke, or as already been taken care of by Grace, thinking they must be for someone else.

    So, they apply differently to all who read them.

    Just like the rest of the story which God has written, for a reason.

    Today’s God at Eventide 5-13-16 was very informative about how each one of us is directed by God differently, and for a reason.

    PS Depression was not on that list, also for a reason…

    So, if I had a perspective about all other things, and I could not see them in God’s Word as clearly as I see these those listed behaviors, then, that would be using only my perspective.

    Then, I would say whether one behavior is good, and another is bad, but, God has already given us His Perspective, and that is good enough for me.

    Be Blessed,

  119. oneg2dblu says:

    narrowpathseeker… thank you for being able to see something good for others in what I am sharing here.

    The reading of the warnings may bring about either condemnation or one’s need to seek change, as they are clearly written in the word for a reason.

    Others here may choose to see only condemnation in my words or presume to know my intent is evil, but that is only a by-product of their own bent/perspective, for we all should know that only God can Condemn.

    In His Love, Gary

  120. poohpity says:

    Gary, praying that one day you will accept Jesus as your Savior! That is God’s perspective and the only means of salvation.

  121. poohpity says:

    Believing in Jesus is also the solution for all the warnings.

  122. joycemb says:

    But Gary, Paul says in Romans those who are in Christ are no longer under condemnation.
    Romans 7:25,8:1

  123. Regina says:

    Good Evening, All
    Apologies for being away for so long. I pray all is well in your lives. Thank you so much to all who are praying for me while I’ve been going through a period of transition in my life. God honored your prayers on my behalf, and I was able to get a room in the godly Christian woman’s house! Her name is the biblical definition of my favorite number… Her name is Grace. I moved in today, and, while I have a lot of unpacking to do, the atmosphere in this house is vastly different from the house I left about 5 and 1/2 hours ago. I covet your prayers that my new roommates and landlady will see my sincere devotion to Jesus Christ. Looking forward to the ministry work and growth that the Lord has for me in this next phase of my life. Side note: Today’s ODB devotional is in remembrance of our dear BTA brother, BruceC! That’s an awesome tribute, Mart! I often wonder if brothers and sisters who’ve gone on before us can feel in their hearts when we’re remembering them on this side of glory? Haven’t read this blog topic yet, but I think I’ll have time to read it this weekend.

    79 degrees and a starry night sky in my neck of the woods…

    Love to all,

  124. joycemb says:

    Since we are still slaves to the flesh it is by only knowing Christ that He can change us. We choose to obey yet He changes us. He changes us. He changes us.

  125. joycemb says:

    Regina so glad to hear you have found a better place to live. God is so good to us single ladies, isn’t He!

  126. narrowpathseeker says:

    When my very first(and very “difficult”) granddaughter was about 9 yo, I took her and her two younger siblings to a fair. She was misbehaving so we left and I told her that I was leaving her off with her Mom and Dad and taking her siblings out for pizza. She said something rude and then kept silent until we neared her home. THEN she turned to me and said, “I don’t know why you are so angry with me, I asked God to make me good and He didn’t so I don’t see how any of this is my fault”

    I think that maybe the extreme end of ANYTHING borders on trouble. I don’t think we can run around doing anything we please in the secular world nor in the church. If God gave us a cow, some chickens, and a veggie garden, do we expect Him to come feed, milk, and weed and then cook and spoon feed us? We have our part to do don’t we? Well, that’s the way I see it anyway. We may not do our part well or maybe we need a brother or sister’s help doing our part, but we need to get it done.

  127. narrowpathseeker says:

    Regina, I am very happy for you. May your days ahead be truly Blessed.

  128. poohpity says:

    What a teachable moment with your grandchild! She blamed God for her behavior rather than taking responsibility for it, admitting what she did, asking for forgiveness and asking for a possible second chance. A lot of adults blame God and others for their behaviors rather than accepting responsibility.

    Yes we do have a part in our Christian life to abide in the Lord.

  129. remarutho says:

    Good Morning All —

    Ah, the nine-year-old finds that free will cannot be avoided! What a precious lesson.

    What is foreordained is that Jesus of Nazareth would become the sacrifice so that all peoples of all times might come to the Father, by the wooing of the Holy Spirit.

    All are welcomed in by grace through faith. All can be born out of darkness into His light.

    Joy all day,

  130. poohpity says:

    When we abide in Christ the things of the world seem less important and it is Him who changes our desires. Will we still mess up you can count on that but His grace is more fully realized when we do, that even stops us from looking at the sin in others and we know we can count on Him to forgive us. The slate is wiped clean and we get to start again. Not to sin again because of His grace but to do good deeds and to love others because of His kinda love for us.

  131. SFDBWV says:

    I am just getting further and further behind in commenting and don’t see much of an opportunity in sight for being able to go in depth to what I felt may add to the thread of conversation.

    I will say that while I might agree that if we were not concerned for others and their futures the events of this world would not matter. However the condition of this world is exactly what Jesus said to be watchful of as they will herald His return.

    And while that event is called “The Great and Terrible day of the Lord” as with all things it will be great for some and terrible for others.

    Paul taught all of the Gentile peoples that there were some things they were no longer to do in being a follower of Jesus. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit helps us know right from wrong so that we will follow after doing right rather than falling into the trap of doing wrong.

    Every evangelist throughout history has brought the good news that our sins are forgiven us through Jesus’ sacrifice and along with that are some level of what is acceptable behavior and what is not.

    On a more recent dateline when evangelists visited the head hunters in the remote jungles of the world after telling of Jesus they also taught that head hunting was not acceptable behavior in the following of being a Christian.

    The events of our day should make us more aware of the eminent return of Christ and even more aware to bring to the lost their need for Jesus. As well as what is acceptable behavior and what is not according to God. That being the reason why we need the covering of the blood of Christ.

    Way out of time.


  132. joycemb says:

    Another perspective here on being 9. When I was 9 I was praying that God would change my parents so they would love me. He did answer, but in a way I could never have imagined at 9. He changed their hearts to love and serve Jesus but not until I was in my 50’s. In the mean time, God taught me how to love my unloving parents. Which I did.

  133. street says:

    been thinking of the idea of letting truth lead us where ever it goes. this idea comes from a discussion on looking at the evidence of a created cosmos.
    if you listen to men you will hear good arguments and pretty plausible logic to get you where you want to go.
    the only problem with this is there is a teacher who said,”Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

    Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, [22] set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

    i have to admit having lunch with an honest 9 year would be more enjoyable than a adult.

  134. oneg2dblu says:

    Today’s God at Eventide, 5-14-16 may put some more perspective on what I have been trying to say for years here, and the again… it may not ever change some perspectives here, which will always be more than ready to say otherwise.
    Just Thinking…

  135. street says:

    narrow said,”I don’t think we can run around doing anything we please in the secular world nor in the church.”

    i think paul said somewhere all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable. when i think of profit, profit for whom? if i remember right, he was poured out.

    Salvation is from the Lord
    Righteousness is from the Lord
    Holiness is from the Lord

    faith working out in love.

  136. poohpity says:

    Gary if the devotion you mentioned is what you have been trying to say for years something must be wrong with my reading.

  137. joycemb says:

    That is the problem with only having one perspective. Like touching an elephant blindfolded and sharing your perspective of what an elephant is like. When God takes off the blindfold we see, but still only as much as we choose to focus on. Takes a long time to be able to step back and see the whole thing. Just like God, I presume.

  138. street says:

    gary it would be better for you to stop reading devotionals and read the Bible. a couple of commentaries could help too. i went to the even tide and was not sure which web site you were looking at, but the one i went to and read two different post on the day you mentioned. i was immediately confronted with who is the author here and was not comfortable with where i was.

  139. street says:

    Isaiah 2:22
    Don’t put your trust in mere humans.
    They are as frail as breath.
    What good are they?

  140. oneg2dblu says:

    street… Perhaps it would be better for you to just read the bible as well.
    I like devotionals though, they can bring me closer to the word, closer to the way, closer to the light, and all the things of the bible as well.
    Our Daily Bread, is one, and I have enjoyed reading it every day now for over 24 years.
    But if you say it would be better for me, would not that go directly against your last post, where you were saying,
    “Don’t put your trust in mere humans?”

    I let the H.S. tell me when to quit reading any particular devotional, thank you.

  141. oneg2dblu says:

    Sounds to me, that maybe the H.S. was telling you to stay away from wherever you went.
    Thanks for sharing…

  142. oneg2dblu says:

    I do agree that any devotional, any commentary, any human teaching, any religion, or any other source, other than the bible itself, could lead some, from finding what God wants for them, and yet, all those things could also lead us to finding what God wants us to find.

    Just thinking…

  143. oneg2dblu says:

    It is almost to the point of not wanting to make any contribution here at all, but for the opposing voices who must spew their ilk when I do, do they confirm my point.

    So, I say thank you, to that voice that breaths only their own unrestrained ilk.

    However, I’ll continue to try to warn all others who have an ear to hear the truth, even if it only confirms that there will come a time, when sound doctrine will no longer be tolerated.

    “Correct living is rooted in correct belief.”

    That is a quote from part of the message I heard tonight.

    Be Blessed, Gary

  144. jeff1 says:

    I would agree Gary but who gets it right all the time, I have not myself, and I do not know anyone who has.

    There are times in my life when I believe I have the correct belief but that does not make it so.

    All mankind wanders from the truth and it is why God sent Christ and why Christ transcends time because God knows man better than He know himself.

    I can have a personal relationship with God but I cannot understand God to the extent that He understands me.

    I cannot see my flaws or my strengths the way God can and that is why I struggle and He sends others to help me along the way.

    What makes God so amazing is that He works in us according to our individual strengths and weaknesses so that no one should perish for no one is an Island but Christ died for all.

  145. poohpity says:

    Thank you Gary for your contributions. But I do know it is neither about truth or sound doctrine that I have not read, well maybe only a very very few times. That even includes when you have said somebody else has said something that they never have. You actually are an advocate for someone or something but it sure isn’t the grace of God.

  146. poohpity says:

    That quote “Correct living is rooted in correct belief” now that is truth. The root is correct or right “belief” yes that effects everything in our lives, our relationships with God and others.

  147. street says:

    Psalm 139:19–22 (NIV) 19 If only you, God, would slay the wicked! Away from me, you who are bloodthirsty! 20 They speak of you with evil intent; your adversaries misuse your name.21 Do I not hate those who hate you, Lord, and abhor those who are in rebellion against you 22 I have nothing but hatred for them;I count them my enemies.

    [5] The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked, those who love violence, he hates with a passion. [6] On the wicked he will rain fiery coals and burning sulfur; a scorching wind will be their lot. [7] For the LORD is righteous, he loves justice; the upright will see his face.

    i think of the parable of the wheat and the tares growing side by side. God does not want any to perish, but to come to repentance. do not up root them or they will be damaged. could grace mercy and love lead them to repentance? could Spirit and Truth change their heart? could it change us? i was a tare, but now am found. i am what i am by the grace of God. God loves little 9 year olds. even if He slay me, which i deserve, He will sustain me. Be Glorified and exalted in the works of your hands.

  148. street says:

    jeff said,”I would agree Gary but who gets it right all the time, I have not myself, and I do not know anyone who has.”

    Jesus got it right every time. God was so pleased with His work he raised Him from the dead. all who believe in Him will be raised too. this pretty much is the end of the matter. yet here i am what now? continue in faith He will withhold no good thing from us including adversity.
    thinking waiting watching praying ……surrendering to love. he who is forgiven much love much.

  149. joycemb says:

    Good morning all!

    Street thinking of your statement “Jesus got it right every time”.

    How selfless He was! More interested in service and sacrifice than debating theological constructs. How long does it take us to trust Him enough to believe that God the father, son, and Holy Spirit are capable and trustworthy to get the job done? Did He come to serve or to make warriors for the war on sin?

    Jesus is the only right fighter I need, and He won! The fight is over! I will no longer allow myself to be distracted. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal.

    Blessed Sunday (here) folks!

  150. foreverblessed says:

    Blessed Pentecost!
    Blessed Holy Spirit outpour on all who are submitted to Christ!

  151. foreverblessed says:

    Street often ssys, I must decrease and He must increase,
    meaning to say that our old man must be crucified, it is already crucified with Christ on the Cross, and we are already risen out of the death grave! We live in newness of life, but we have to believe that!

  152. joycemb says:

    An aside on God at eve ride, by two listeners. At one time in my journey I also was taught as these two ladies how to “listen”. I wrote what I “heard” from God. On day I started feeling uneasy and more so when I started writing “messages” for others, that at first were seemingly good and blessing others. One day someone said “how did you know that about me?” More uneasiness and I really started to look at my writings and thought I should make sure they line up with scripture. It was then I noticed some “minor” imperfections. That was it! I was done and only trust scripture anymore and always compare devotionals with scripture.

    Many (including the Catholic Church) see this as occult in nature. It’s called automatic writing. I learned essentially that any truth that is interpreted through my mind is fertile ground for evil. Renewing of the mind is best done with Holy scripture as breathed by God. Opening my mind to receive is not necessary. God can speak to us in whatever way He chooses, and does.

    I woke up singing “This is my Fathers World”. “He speaks to me everywhere”.

  153. foreverblessed says:

    Who is it that overcomes this world?
    Only He who believes that Jesus is the Son of God
    1 John 4:5
    This is the one who came by water and blood- Jesus Christ.
    He did not come by water only, but by water and blood.
    And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth

  154. narrowpathseeker says:

    Very intelligent, sincerely dedicated to Christ, honest and very learned theologians have been split into countless varied beliefs of Christianity and scripture.

    There is very little that I think I know for sure and even that could be wrong. However, I am more apt to consider what a person with a caring heart has to say than to consider that coming from one with a severely over inflated ego with a need to rule over everyone.

    I DO think that Matthew 7:22-23 says that there are going to be people that have read their bibles and claim to be Christians that are going to be in for a rude awakening. Of course I could be wrong, but it keeps me praying, hoping, and trying to avoid that outcome……

  155. joycemb says:

    If you look on the Internet you can find a list of scriptural misinterpretation found in Two Listeners.

  156. foreverblessed says:

    Sorry Joyce, we are writing simultaneuos!
    I do agree that it is the Living Word if God that is Holy, I say Living Word, because the bible is the written word, and can be misunderstood easily!
    Reading the bible is no guarantee that we will not go wrong! To me the Holy Spirit must make the written word the Living Word, and I also agree that the Holy Spirit speaks personally to each one of us and that could be differently.
    Like I do not need the warning that I can lose my salvation, as I do not want to lose it. But some apparantly need that warning. I gave had too many warnings in my early christian life, I need reassurance, “I am already a loved child of God”
    I do not want to leave Him, He is my priced possession and I am His!

  157. joycemb says:

    forever hi! Yes we are typing at the same time! No problem here.

    When I was a new Christian and attending Bible camps/retreats the most valuable thing I heard then and to this day (though I forget sometimes), was a comment made as a woman began to speak. She said to us, “When you are reading scripture, it’s meant for you, not for your neighbor, the person sitting behind, next to, or in front of you.” Wow. I do love to compare myself to others. ugh.

  158. foreverblessed says:

    Be still and know that I am God Psalm 46:10

    And the next one is very very biblically, the same the two listeners did:
    Psalm 37:7
    Be still before the Lord, and wait patiently for Him!

    I am sorry you had a negative happening, I hope it will be made whole again! But that does not make everything occultic that is waited upon in prayerful mode!
    May God bless you, and I bless you too!

  159. joycemb says:

    Both the scripture you gave are taken out of context. They are about God delivering them from their enemies.

  160. joycemb says:

    May the Lord bless you also, forever!

  161. foreverblessed says:

    Ok, so you see that insights differ. For you it is as you see it, for me it is clear too. Lets keep blessing each other, because that’s best to do.

    I was wanting to write about loving your enemies, as Jesus has commanded us, Matthew 5:43
    Loving your enemies means not harboring hate in your heart for your enemy. So, what is inside our heart, no hate, but love, God’s love. What we actually do is the next step.

    That is only possible when we give our hate to Jesus, Ir in other words, admit it is there, and playing it at the Cross.
    But Alexander MacLaren explains that the easiest way to do that is to pray for your enemies!

    Yesterday we were stopped by the police, something was wrong with the car, and we were fined for it. As we were stopped I started praying, and started to bless the guys, quietly, while praying. (Not saying that the police is my enemy, but being fined can make me angry). And I was overjoyed for the harvest that will come out of this prayer!
    Walking with Jesus is truly turning things upside down! Instead of turning bitter I become happy!

    Jesus is truly waiting for our prayers, so He can act on them, He has connected Himself to the Body as the Head. He wants to act with us.

  162. foreverblessed says:

    It should be Matthew 5:44

  163. foreverblessed says:

    Ohh, typos, or rather autocorrection,
    Laying our hate at the Cross, and asking for His love

  164. joycemb says:

    Forever it so good to share our differing perspectives and remain friends! God bless us all.

  165. street says:

    narrow said,”Very intelligent, sincerely dedicated to Christ, honest and very learned theologians have been split into countless varied beliefs of Christianity and scripture.”

    i ask you narrow where are these learned theologians now? the ones we remember and publish are the ones who loved and walked with the Lord. were they perfect, no, but they did love. and there work was proven over time. we are their descendants and the proof of what they held dear. they did the hard work and we enter their labor. some day we will rejoice together with great joy.

  166. street says:

    Psalm 46:10 “Cease striving and know that I am God;
    I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.”

    the striving part is a couple theologians arguing, funny how God whispers. i wonder how quiet we need to be in order to hear Him? i like the last line I will be exalted in the earth. i am made up of earth, think about that one for awhile.

    God bless you this Pentecost. He paid a very high cost for this day. may we be found faithful.

  167. joycemb says:

    Yes we are all theologians!

  168. Regina says:

    Good Afternoon, All
    Pray all is well in your lives. Thank you joycemb and narrow for the well wishes and heartfelt gratitude for my new home. Yes, joycemb, our Lord Jesus definitely takes care of His single daughters!

    Cloudy and 69 degrees in my neck of the woods! :-)

    LOVE to all,

  169. jeff1 says:

    Thinking that is why God uses us differently because my beliefs often get in the way of Jesus.

    I am to put Jesus first but when I realize I do not always put Jesus first then I agree with God that I am not blameless before Him and I know whatever God allows in my life I can blame no one but myself.

    I have so often blamed others for coming between God and I but the truth is it is I who come between God and I.

    As my son says I must stop making excuses for my weaknesses and accept I have them because God loves me despite of them.

  170. remarutho says:

    Good Morning BTA —

    David calls the time before his own birth a time of darkness — when he was formed in the womb, and not yet in the light. He mentions in Psalms 22, 27, 57 and 71 how the Lord has taken him from his mother’s womb.

    In Psalm 139:19-20 David finds fault with others in their relationship with God — or perhaps he finds these “evil ones” in himself:

    “If only you, God, would slay the wicked! Away from me, you who are bloodthirsty! They speak of you with evil intent; your adversaries misuse your name.”

    David prays for himself greater surrender to God — a cleansing from his own anxious thoughts and hurtful ways in the final verses — Psalm 139:23, 24.

    Surely every child of God is assailed by evil forces — “afflicted at every turn—fighting without and fear within,” as the Apostle Paul put it. Our cleansing and becoming holy (transformation) are on-going by the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit. We have hope in Jesus for freedom from sin, by His excellent power and Holy Love.

    Thank-you, Lord, for the gift of Pentecost!

  171. foreverblessed says:

    Today is also a holiday in our country, the second Pentecost day. Just as we have a second Easter day and a second Christmas day on Dec 26.

    We had a sermon on the Holy Spirit on mothers day, that the Holy Spirit is the Comforter, that is the Motherheart of God!

  172. jeff1 says:

    The Holy Spirit comforts when no one else can for it is our direct link to God and it is where I find peace for a weary soul.

    I find that words do not always comfort a hurting heart but when God speaks to me in His silence it says more than words can ever say.

  173. jeff1 says:

    I was sinking deep in sin, far from the peaceful shore,
    Very deeply stained within, sinking to rise no more,
    But the Master of the sea, heard my despairing cry,
    From the waters lifted me, now safe am I.

    Love lifted me! Love lifted me!
    When nothing else could help
    Love lifted me!
    Love lifted me! Love lifted me!
    When nothing else could help
    Love lifted me!

    All my heart to Him I give, ever to Him I’ll cling
    In His blessed presence live, ever His praises sing,
    Love so mighty and so true, merits my soul’s best songs,
    Faithful, loving service too, to Him belongs.

    Love lifted me! Love lifted me!
    When nothing else could help
    Love lifted me!
    Love lifted me! Love lifted me!
    When nothing else could help
    Love lifted me!

    Souls in danger look above, Jesus completely saves,
    He will lift you by His love, out of the angry waves.
    He’s the Master of the sea, billows His will obey,
    He your Savior wants to be, be saved today.

    Love lifted me! Love lifted me!
    When nothing else could help
    Love lifted me!
    Love lifted me! Love lifted me!
    When nothing else could help
    Love lifted me!

  174. SFDBWV says:

    Moving along to the very last comment Mart made in the opening comment; I was drawn to the idea that God honored mothers by allowing them to give us the gift of life and so the opportunity to know Him.

    Thinking back to Genesis, part of Eve’s punishment was to give birth in intense pain and suffering and even so, still desire her husband sexually.

    It opens up the discussion were Adam and Eve supposed to procreate as originally created? Or was procreation a result of the original sin?

    Personally I believe against some of you that the entire sequence of events were all played out so as to bring Jesus into the culmination of the story.

    But having said that, I know of some people who would argue that being born into the world is not a gift, but rather a punishment.

    Some even believe it to be a test; the trials of life.

    Seeing how that God knew us before we were born leads some to believe we existed before being born into the world, leading up to the unanswerable question as to when does the “soul” inhabit the fetus?

    Remembering always to be careful of what you seek, because you just might find it. As well as the words of the wise that knowledge without wisdom is a very dangerous thing.

    Ever wonder why it is recorded that someone who already had the Holy Spirit had to lay hands on a new believer in order for them to receive Him? After the Day of Pentecost.

    Snow Saturday morning at 32 degrees, much warmer this morning at 33 and clear skies.


  175. narrowpathseeker says:

    Dear Street, I have no idea where the “theologians” I mentioned, are now. In the first place, I had no specific “theologians” in mind and in the second place, if I did and they are now deceased, I would STILL not know where they are now.

    However, I was NOT judging the theologians as to right/wrong or good/bad, but rather pointing out their countless, collective differences of opinion and beliefs DESPITE their dedication to Christ, their intelligence, and their massive knowledge.

    Moreover, my thoughts were directed at the vast differences of exceptionally knowledgeable, intelligent, and seemingly dedicated theologians. If they couldn’t agree then surely some of them must have been wrong…but WHO?!!! So, who is right HERE on this site when it comes to disagreements? My concluding point was that I choose to listen or at least to consider that of those whose motives appear to be genuine concern for others and choose not to listen much to those who just like to argue and show off what they know and/or their ability to copy and paste.

  176. cbrown says:

    Good morning all! I was visiting a Presbyterian church in DC and and am going to paste the lyrics of one of one of the songs we sang that I think is on topic.
    Come, Holy Spirit, heavenly Dove
    Come, Holy Spirit, heavenly Dove,
    with all thy quickening powers;
    kindle a flame of sacred love
    in these cold hearts of ours.

    See how we trifle here below,
    fond of these earthly toys:
    our souls, how heavily they go,
    to reach eternal joys.

    In vain we tune our formal songs,
    in vain we strive to rise:
    hosannas languish on our tongues,
    and our devotion dies.

    Come, Holy Spirit, heavenly Dove,
    with all thy quickening powers;
    come, shed abroad a Savior’s love,
    and that shall kindle ours.

  177. joycemb says:

    Beautiful song, Chris. Thank you.

  178. street says:

    narrow said.” If they couldn’t agree then surely some of them must have been wrong…but WHO?!!!”

    two stories come to mind narrow, the one at mtn carmel and the court case of the two prostitutes before solomon. first off we serve a living and true God. He has made Himself known. the two prostitutes boils down to who loved the child.

  179. phpatato says:

    I agree “Narrow” with you. I was thinking though when your comment was about “theologians”, you were speaking of the theologians of recent times say perhaps the 20th century; that you were not referring to Biblical theologians. There have been many many cases or examples, in the last century or so, of “”Very intelligent, sincerely dedicated to Christ, honest and very learned theologians *that* have been split into countless varied beliefs of Christianity and scripture.” A very sad example of “theologians” or in this case an Evangelist who worked alongside of Billy Graham during crusades is/was Charles Templeton. He is Canadian so it is very likely his name means nothing to most of you here. I know of him because at one time, my mother, who was pianist for the radio broadcast for Youth for Christ back in the 40s was well acquainted with Charles through his affliation with that organization. Sadly several years later, after a long period of doubt, Charles declared himself an agnostic and died as one.

    Billy Graham and Charles Templeton could not agree and one of them was wrong. In this case, we know who but there are others where we won’t know until we get into the Bible and seek the Holy Spirit who has promised to lead us into all truth. As for those here…..I find myself asking “is this meant to be “conversation” or is it just “talk”. There is a difference in my mind.

  180. joycemb says:

    Measuring how loving we are can be tricky. Seeing love through the Holy Spirit isn’t tricky at all! Love just is!

  181. narrowpathseeker says:

    Yes, Pat, I was referring to theologians of recent times. Thank you for clearing that up.

    Street, I don’t know much about you other than it seems that you misunderstand sometimes and I often misunderstand things that you write as well. Could it be that you are bilingual and English is your second language? I hope that doesn’t sound rude as I don’t mean it to be. I am just trying to figure out the reasons for the many misunderstandings on both sides of the fence.

  182. poohpity says:

    Pat, Is there a difference in “conversation” and just “talk”? Conversation is a exchange of ideas on any given subject. Talk is saying words to express opinions, thoughts, feelings, etc. to have a conversation or discussion with others. So is conversation what happens when we talk????

  183. street says:

    misunderstandings give us both room for growth. sometimes painful sometimes joyful. paul was acquainted with both.

  184. jeff1 says:

    Joyce, thinking about your post 6.44 pm

    I measure love by knowing that when it comes to my children love knows no bounds but sadly I do not love others as I do my children.

    I have expectations of others that means I expect them to behave in a way I understand or else I do not love them as I should.

    I believe the difference being that I take the responsibility for my children being as they are since I had a hand in their upbringing so my love for them is also a love of myself.

    I believe my love is too restricted and that I don’t know how to love those who need it the most.

    I know loving others is my weakness yet I also believe that without it I fail to know God the way I should.

    Faith, hope and love and the greatest of all is love.

    Those who can love all are closest to God because God loves because He loves.

    I am not saved because of my love for others I am saved because God loves the loveless because they know their need of His love.

  185. foreverblessed says:

    Jeff, that was beautifull what you wrote!
    Your comments are full of humility!

    I was thinking what Maru, and Mart, wrote about the evil in ourselves, could it be that when David asked God in many Psalms, to kill his enemies, David in fact asked God to kill the evil in himself?
    It reminds me if the Israelites, when they entered the promised land, they were commanded to kill the inhabitants.

    We, in the New Testament enter into a new life, in faith in Christ, and we are commanded to love our enemies, the only thing we are commanded to kill is our old self.

    The old man, the fallen man in us: kill it!
    Miserabele self u de volgende exchanged

  186. foreverblessed says:

    Oops, it posted itself?
    Miserable self-life Exchange with Godly life, the Life of Jesus, and that through the Holy Spirit.

    Fill it with the love of God, not killing the self and leaving an emptiness, no Gods love must fill us!

  187. joycemb says:

    Viv and forever when I was a newer believer and just entering counseling for the abuse I suffered as a child I decided to become part of the local child protection team. The very first meeting we heard stories of how the team operated and intervened on certain circumstances. Before the meeting was over the H.S. said to me, “you must love your enemy also”. And so began many years of learning to love my own parents, not through my eyes, (which was impossible at the time) but through God’s eyes. I found that through prayer and staying close to Jesus I did learn, eventually. It is by keeping His perspective we learn to live and move and be in this world.
    God bless you both, abundantly! Joyce

  188. jeff1 says:

    I understand Joyce what you are saying that it took many years of learning, for just when I think I am doing well there are those who disagree with me, and I struggle again to focus on Christ and His teaching and I feel I take more steps backwards than forwards.

    What I know in my heart I cannot resonate in my head because there are other voices shouting at me and disturbing my peace.

    Thank you for helping me to know I must not give up looking to His perspective and God bless you too.

    Thanks forever for explaining how I can be empty but not be filled with God’s love, because I have felt empty but not understood why, but it is I who block God filling me when I doubt Him! Lord help me not to doubt your goodness today and fill me with your love that I can be the person you intended me to be and God bless forever too!

  189. joycemb says:

    Dear Viv, the important thing I think is to not give up on communicating with Him. With all honesty. Even so far as the many other voices in your head or otherwise, tell God about the voices, tell God when others are upsetting you. Ask Him to help you. Because even when you can’t hear, see, or touch Him, He is with you. Tell Him you don’t trust Him, tell Him you feel lost, forgotten, too far gone, or whatever. He’s always listening and wants to help. He knew you before you were born and all that your life would be like. He is the one that has gotten you this far, He will not leave you now. He knows you have a mental illness but it really doesn’t phase Him a bit. He’s always running toward you, whether you are running away or not. Sometimes just being still is the best way to feel His comfort.

    You are not now or never were a mistake in His eyes. I love you and bless you in the name of the Lord, Joyce

  190. street says:

    jeff this prayer came to mind from recent surfing.

    “When I was racked some months ago with pain, to an extreme degree, so that I could no longer bear it without crying out, I asked all to go from the room, and leave me alone; and then I had nothing I could say to God but this, ‘Thou are my Father, and I am thy child; and thou, as a Father art tender and full of mercy. I could not bear to see my child suffer as thou makest me suffer, and if I saw him tormented as I am now, I would do what I could to help him, and put my arms under him to sustain him. Wilt thou hide thy face from me, my Father? Wilt thou still lay on a heavy hand, and not give me a smile from thy countenance?’ … So I pleaded, and I ventured to say, when I was quiet, and they came back who watched me: ‘I shall never have such pain again from this moment, for God has heard my prayer.’ I bless God that ease came and the racking pain never returned.” (“The Anguish and Agonies of Charles Spurgeon,” 24)

  191. jeff1 says:

    Yes Joyce I have found great peace in being quiet and in knowing He cares when I sometimes find myself too down to care myself.

    I am amazed at how it strengths me to go on and face people that I think I cannot face again but He always gives me the strength I need.

    Thank you for your love and His blessing.

  192. jeff1 says:

    Thank You Street for the prayer, I have not prayed like that for I have only prayed prayers of thanksgiving.

    I have not thought to ask God to ease my pain because I have been taught to believe that God leaves a thorn in my side for a reason which I may not understand but accept it as God’s disciplining for my growth.

    After the pain I feel stronger and that God is drawing me nearer. I believe I am learning to trust God in a way I never did before.

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