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Some of the most difficult words of the Bible come from the mouth of Jesus. For example, he is the one who talked about 2 sins, one against God (insulting the Holy Spirit), the other against one another (an unwillingness to forgive), that he called unforgivable. (Luke 11:18; Matthew 6:15)

Writing about the unnecessary suffering a misunderstanding of these words have caused, 19th century author George MacDonald writes, “If we are bound to search after what our Lord means—and he speaks that we may understand—we are at least equally bound to refuse any interpretation which seems to us unlike him, unworthy of him.” (Source: Unspoken Sermons).

I think G.M.’s advice, dangerous as it may sound, can be needed medicine for anyone who has forgotten that even inspired words can be misunderstood— apart from the source, moment, circumstance, and intent in which they were spoken.

As to whether a person has committed an unpardonable sin, MacDonald writes, “I am far less anxious to show what the sin against the Holy Ghost means, than to show what the nonforgiveness means.

The solution MacDonald suggests for what Jesus calls “unforgivable” is that he is not speaking of withholding “eternal salvation”. Rather, because of his love for us, he is not willing to ignore (1) a condition of heart that is resisting the Spirit we need to know Jesus, or (2) the kind of unforgiving bitterness toward one another that shuts our hearts to the influence of God in us.

Does that resonate with you? Can you in good conscience believe that when it comes to matters “unforgivable”, what remains to be seen is “the kind of unforgiveness” that One as merciful as Jesus could only have meant?

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156 Responses to “Unforgivable!”

  1. tedmgossard says:

    I posted on something similar to that, this morning, at least in my mind. I end up being agnostic in not knowing for sure what all of this means, but I do resonate with George MacDonald’s thought on it. We sin against the very love of God in Jesus, and therefore cut off our only hope, one might say. But when by grace we do that no more, surely that love remains.

  2. jeff1 says:

    ‘the kind of unforgiving bitterness toward one another that shuts our hearts to the influence of God in us’.

    I can blind myself to the fact that I have double standards when it comes to God’s forgiveness but God’s love is greater than my deceitful heart.

    Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
    That saved a wretch like me…
    I once was lost but now am found,
    was blind but now I see.

    ‘Twas Grace that taught…
    my heart to fear.
    And Grace my fears relieved.
    How precious did that Grace appear..
    the hour I first believed.

    Though many dangers, toils and snares..
    we have already come.
    T’was Grace that brought us safe thus far…
    And Grace will lead us home.

    The Lord has promised good to me…
    His word my hope secures.
    He will my shield and portion be…
    As long as life endures.

    When we’ve been here ten thousand years…
    bright shining as the sun.
    We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise…
    Then when we’ve first begun.

    Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
    That saved a wretch like me…
    I once was lost but now am found,
    Was blind but now I see.

  3. SFDBWV says:

    When I was a young man in the Marine Corps drinking a few beers one evening with some others discussing everything from religion and politics to every corner of our experiences (as everyone knows at 19 or 20 we knew everything). One of the fellows there while laughing sarcastically questioned the virgin birth of Jesus by a quick and rude remark.

    I felt the Spirit in me “jolt” as if slapped or offended. A feeling I have never forgotten and one that has troubled me all of my days.

    Could it be, was it possible that a simple insult leveled against the Holy Spirit condemns a man to eternal “un-forgiveness”?

    Years later I was encouraged to hear Billy Graham say that if you were concerned that you may have committed the unforgiveable sin that simply by being concerned about it meant you had not. Because the Holy Spirit was still there within you.

    I have since those early days of my youth come to believe that only by hardening your heart against the Holy Spirt to the point where you no longer listen to Him and thereby never seek the acceptance of Jesus as Lord and forgiveness of your life from and through Him as being the unforgiveable sin.

    However questions remain for me in the deepest meaning of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross; as if not for the completely “lost” of humanity did Jesus sacrifice Himself then is His sacrifice *conditional*?

    55 degrees and wet after a night of drizzle and fog.


  4. poohpity says:

    It chills my heart to think for a moment that I will not be forgiven for something I do. If I can receive the forgiveness of the Lord who am I to withhold it from another. It would be a curse festering inside of me to not forgive someone else. I would have to think that their transgression is far worse than mine and I know that not to be true especially in the eyes of God.

    I would have to believe that Jesus did not die for the sins of the world.(1 John 2:2 NLT) I would then be putting myself in the place of God to withhold forgiveness from someone He paid the ultimate price to forgive.

  5. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends —

    Mart, you write:

    “I think G.M.’s advice, dangerous as it may sound, can be needed medicine for anyone who has forgotten that even inspired words can be misunderstood — apart from the source, moment, circumstance, and intent in which they were spoken.”

    The hardness of heart we see in a Pharaoh or in a King Ahab for example — continual, unchanging opposition to the will of God — does call for medicine, as you say.

    The medicine is the opening of our lives to God’s great love and grace for all His creatures, it seems to me. This means transformation within a loving community of faith. Heart and mind are changed.

    This means hearing or reading the Gospel.

    A Bible passage may be misinterpreted to support a hateful attitude. If such a sad condition is not remedied — by further study, prayer and the wooing of the Holy Spirit, it will kill us.

    The danger in MacDonald’s proposal, as you quoted, Mart…

    “If we are bound to search after what our Lord means—and he speaks that we may understand—we are at least equally bound to refuse any interpretation which seems to us unlike him, unworthy of him.” (Source: Unspoken Sermons).

    ..I say that the danger is that the body of Christ would indulge any interpretation of Jesus’ words that is condemning. We walk a tightrope in this, since interpreting Scripture is a holy thing — done prayerfully and done in the ongoing work of devotion to Him and to our fellow believers — not off alone in a narrow and isolated set of thoughts and feelings.

    Jesus is the only true Judge. He did call out the bigots and the self-righteous in His own day.

    All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Him. While we are delivered from darkness and sin by His sacrifice, death, resurrection and ascension — we do not wield His power. Only He does.

    Rather than stamp someone as “Unforgivable” we are surely constrained by God’s very grace to continue to bring a Gospel message — and to speak the truth in love.

    How can we remain in His Light if we do otherwise? Just asking.

    7C/45F here. Cloudy with rain forecast. Looking for a sunshine break tomorrow.

  6. jeff1 says:

    It seems that some see ‘unforgiveness’ in ‘black and white’ but I do not find the reality to be black and white.

    I live in a country where many have lost their loved ones through violence and I find that when someone looses their loved one in that way they find it hard to accept it as God’s will.

    They want to know ‘why and who’ did this and it also creates a desire in them to see justice done by bringing the offender to judgement.

    While I have hope that the offender is not beyond God’s forgiveness I must accept that the victim’s may find it much harder to extend their forgiveness but that God also understanding their loss is not without mercy for them also.

    God’s way is inclusive and not exclusive but I can feel excluded when I don’t understand God’s intention.

  7. poohpity says:

    God seems to have included ALL in His forgiveness because ALL have sinned. One can get stuck into thinking that forgiveness is deserved by those who confess their sin but God forgave before anyone ever admitted they were even sinners. One can also get stuck into thinking that their sin is less offensive than that of others but to God sin is sin and there are not degrees, murder is in the same category as lying, the sin category. When one has broken one they have in essence broken them all.(James 2:10 NLT)

    It is pretty black and white what Jesus said in Matt 6:14-15 NLT

  8. poohpity says:

    Do we want to really risk not being forgiven just to hold on to unforgiveness? Forgiveness is not saying that the deed or offense was right or lawful, it is saying I will give it ALL over to God to deal with rather than poisoning my life with a lack of forgiveness.

  9. phpatato says:

    It seems to me that in order to receive forgiveness, one must ask for forgiveness. Walking around presuming one is forgiven and just shrugging it off by thinking “it’s all good” is insulting – not only to the one who was offended but to God as well. It diminishes the magnitude and seriousness of what Christ actually did on the cross. One shows just how humble they are when they ask for forgiveness.

    It’s a cool plus 7 C headed to a high of only 9, with rain in the forecast for tonight.

    Blessings to all


  10. joycemb says:

    From Mindful Christianity-

    “Every time I judge someone else I reveal a part of me that has not yet been healed”

  11. joycemb says:

    Jesus never said there were qualifiers to the act of forgiveness. There are degrees of knowledge, yes. But not so with forgiveness; although it can be a process depending on the depth and intensity of the offense. We can also recreate the offense by returning to the scene of the crime, which requires not only forgiving the offender but ourselves if we have allowed ourselves to return. Hopefully we can forgive 70×7 until we figure out how to live in peace.

  12. joycemb says:

    I don’t believe the evil that happens is Gods will. Can we overcome it, yes!! But does He do evil? 1John1:5

  13. jeff1 says:

    Those who have lost a loved one are suffering terribly from that loss and also start to wonder if God loves them or not because no one can fully come to terms as to why their loved one has been blown to pieces in a bomb or their head blown off by a gun often in front of their children.

    There is nothing black and white about their pain and suffering and since many never seen anyone brought to justice there is no end to their unanswered questions.

    Is this the world that ‘Jesus’ died for or is this the world that we live in when others shut their hearts to God?

    Is trusting God about turning a blind eye to the evil around us?

    Perhaps it is not surprising that Christians get a difficult time in the world today if our ideal of following Jesus is not to admit that sin has such a hold on this world but instead bury our heads in the sand.

    Pooh, people do not decide to poison their life with a lack of forgiveness as you put it and if you understood anything of their suffering you might have the decency to show them some empathy rather than make judgements on their circumstances because the day I loose empathy for others is the day Satan wins and God has left the building.

  14. bubbles says:

    1John 1:9 –I am thankful that God forgives and forgives and forgives. I am humbled by his patience towards me.

  15. poohpity says:

    Oh my gosh I did not say those things about forgiveness that is what God told us. I never said anything about not understanding the horrific crimes against humanity and not feeling empathy for the victims of such crimes. I simply shared what the One who went through the most horrific offenses when He did not deserve anything that He took on our behalf and then forgave.

    He did not say first you have to ask me to forgive you but forgave us while we were still in the midst of the sins. So ladies if you have problems with that then take it to Jesus who is the very one who taught us about forgiveness by being an example.

    As far as I am concerned hang onto the lack of forgiveness it is no sweat off my brow what you do. I however do want the forgiveness of God so I will forgive. Frankly you have no idea of the horrible things done to me and that I have chosen to forgive even when it was not admitted to or no one asked me to forgive them nor have you any idea of the things that I have done yet Christ has forgiven me.

    You have no empathy for someone if you are unable to forgive them, that is just a bunch of noise and lip service.

  16. poohpity says:

    Not forgiving makes people sick most often with depression, stomach problems, nerve problems, anger problems and most importantly a very hard heart, stone cold.

  17. mtman says:

    Not even sure I want to comment on this subject as it seems clear to me and all the machinations of George MacDonald or anyone else which seem prone to nip at the edges of the one unforgivable sin.
    The unpardonable/unforgivable sin or “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” is mentioned in Mark 3:22–30 and Matthew 12:22–32. Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter” (Mark 3:28), but then He gives one exception: “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin” (verse 29).

    Never/eternal to me seems to pretty much cover it all. We can sin unintentionally, or on purpose and be forgiven. If we blaspheme the Holy Spirit we will NEVER be forgiven. I don’t know what the result of that means but it doesn’t sound good. I’m not willing to run the risk and put my salvation in jeopardy. It seems to me that is the only sin we want to stay a long way from.

    To nip away at the edges of what sin is or try to impose our words for what Jesus said is pretty risky if you ask me. I have no intention of attempting to water down that declaration by Him. No matter how you try to massage His words you are still faced with the Never part of not being forgiven. If we really love Jesus then we won’t blaspheme the Holy Spirit as that sin will never leave us.. It will be eternally ours to carry.

    Blasphemy is the act or offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred thing: profane talk. When Jesus says NEVER, I think that may be a long time and while I can’t say for sure I don’t know there will be room in heaven for those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Who ever does so is guilty of the eternal sin. That all seems pretty clear to me…

  18. joycemb says:

    I think to blaspheme against God means to attribute the works of God to Satan. Why would such a person even want to spend eternity with God?

  19. mtman says:

    I know now in today’s culture that it is widely accepted that we are not accountable for our actions and many believe we will all go to heaven. I do not prescribe to those concepts however as Jesus also says the road to perdition is wide and the road to righteousness is narrow. Perhaps if you are on the wide road you can convince yourself that it leads to heaven also but at the end of that road you will suffer a major disappointment.

    Most people who call themselves Christian today don’t even believe in the Holy Spirit. It seems denial of the Holy Spirit is the first step on that wide road and on that wide road may be following the wrong guide.

  20. narrowpathseeker says:

    What IS genuine forgiveness? If I proclaim to forgive someone and yet live to get even and say something daily to insult and hurt that person, can we even consider that to be forgiveness?

    If I pray for His help to forgive someone for continual backbiting, but “feel” nothing but disgust for this person and try to avoid this person while praying for their eyes to be open and doing nothing to hurt them …can we consider that forgiveness? If we encounter a person claiming to be a Christian that seems to truly enjoy making everyone around them miserable, are we as Christians compelled to socialize with this person, when we know that this person is going to rob or attempt to rob what fruit we may possess?

    Just what IS our obligation to someone like that…….. if we DO manage to forgive…they fully intend to dish out more for us to forgive.. does any of it make any sense?

  21. joycemb says:

    Following Jesus is hard, it goes against all our natural inclinations. Ask Him to help and He will but we must make the hard choices, we must be willing to follow His ways.

  22. SFDBWV says:

    Here in the current news is the story of Aaron Hernandez an ex NFL star who Hanged himself in his prison cell while serving a life sentence for murder.

    Aaron, 27 years old, had just been acquitted of a double murder conviction, but still faced life behind bars for the earlier conviction of murdering a friend.

    No suicide note, only John 3:16 written on his forehead in red ink.

    The man Aaron had murdered could never have the opportunity to forgive Aaron as he is dead. Did Aaron try to make his peace with God and then hang himself? No one knows.

    The thing here is that here is a life ruined. One that held a lucrative promise of a good life, but something was wrong, sin had won and not only one life lost but 2 and maybe 4.

    Then there are all of the people who suffer from the collateral damage of murder. Good people who now have to live with the results of someone else’s crimes.

    Some may say Aaron should have hung anyway, others may say his cowardly act of suicide has given him an escape from justice.

    What is it that Jesus says in Scripture that we as observers can apply to such a scenario?

    Does the written words of John 3:16 show that Aaron had placed his eternity in the hands of Jesus, an act of faith, and then by suicide atone for his sin and so then forgiven?

    Judas also hung himself.

    Is then yet another “rule/law” then applied to all those affected by this murder and suicide that they are to forgive or face judgement from God?

    Also why wasn’t Judas forgiven?

    It seems there is more to think about in this subject then first imagined.

    Thunderstorms are in the forecast.


  23. mtman says:

    Maybe this explanation will help decide what forgiveness is or is not.
    To some people, forgiveness may seem like weakness or letting an undeserving person win, but it has no connection to weakness or even to emotions. Instead, forgiveness is an act of the will. Forgiveness is not granted because a person deserves to be forgiven. No one deserves to be forgiven. Forgiveness is a deliberate act of love, mercy, and grace. Forgiveness is a decision to not hold something against another person, despite what he or she has done to you.

    The most miserable and unhappy people I know are those who do not forgive. They harbor anger and hate within them that effects almost every aspect of their life. They often live for vengeance which is why I don’t believe in Karma as that is a form of vengeance. Some people enjoy going through life with hate and anger bottled up in them and deprive themselves of peace or happiness.

    It seems to me that the only people hurt are those who don’t forgive. It doesn’t mean that you forget the offense but it just means you release it and leave it in God’s capable hands. To forget just leaves yourself open to more offense. You can forgive but that doesn’t mean the offender wants to be forgiven or cares. Forgiveness seems to be about the offended not the offender.

    It is an individual choice and forgiving does not make the matter right again for anyone but the offended one.

  24. cbrown says:

    AS I head to the Bible study tonight at prison I would appreciate your prayers for the inmates. The conclusion of the Bible study will be the point that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is refusing to receive Help from God.

  25. mtman says:

    One more thing on forgiveness: I recall when we lived in N. Florida that a good friend of ours lost their teenage daughter. She was walking home from high school and another student took her by force and dragged her out into a field where he raped her and then beat her to death with her flute. We were with them when a priest came to comfort them and told them they needed to forgive the person who did this even though the culprit had not been identified yet..

    It was fortunate that the priest was able to leave alive. The parents were not ready to forgive then. When the injury is still raw is not the time to tell someone who has just suffered a horrific loss that they need to forgive.

    It took a long time for them but they were able to finally forgive the person. It took quite a while since the suspect got off on a technicality as the police preforming a search warrant went beyond the parameters of the warrant to obtain condemning evidence. Because of that the violator got off and the parents were even injured more.

  26. joycemb says:

    Forgiveness is for us, not our perpetrators.

  27. joycemb says:

    Jesus’ truth trumps all human emotion. He was eventually killed by angry people. It can be dangerous following Christ’s teachings.

  28. jeff1 says:

    I am what I am Pooh, my empathy is for the victims who have suffered because I see their pain and I cannot feel empathy for those I cannot understand because I do not know how they can cause such suffering and sleep in their beds at night.

    As regards my mental health, it is inherited as my brother suffered from schizophrenia from he was a teenager until his death. Also my mother suffered with her mental health due to abuse as a child.

    Your post 2.42 pm requires clarification to what caused my mental health problems because I don’t want you to come to the wrong conclusion.

  29. joycemb says:

    Praying that seeing eyes will be truly opened tonite Chris. LORD have mercy.

  30. poohpity says:

    Again Viv, that comment was not directed at your mental health problems of which I really know nothing about. It was a general statement about the results in people who hold on to anger, hate and lack of forgiveness. Anyone can look those up on google. Being a counselor myself I have seen it in others and have experienced them for myself.

    You know yourself better than anyone else does and know what is in your heart and if it is causing problems in your life, your relationship with God and your relationship with others. Only you can answer that, it is not up to me to point it out to you. I can only share some information that I have learned.

  31. saled says:

    I would like to express my thanks to everyone who prayed for my sister 3 weeks ago. She will be coming home from the hospital tomorrow. It is another of a series of miracles in her life. She has lived with diabetes since she was 12, had a severe heart attack and triple bypass at age 40, was told that she could never have bypass surgery again, had more than 30 stents placed in her arteries over the past 15 years to keep them open, and has just survived major complications from hip replacement surgery. Her recovery will be long, but 3 weeks ago it looked like her heart might not have the strength to see her through this complication. I am so thankful that she is coming home. She organizes the summer vacation Bible school for the only church in our town, and is planning to come home and start working at that.

  32. SFDBWV says:

    What a marvelous praise report for you and your sister Saled.

    Thank you for the update. I am happy for you both.


  33. jeff1 says:

    I believe I have a long way to go in understanding God because truthfully I know I am not worthy of forgiveness so the struggle for me is understanding ‘why’.

    I have met very few people who truly forgive but this to me is what forgiveness is about.

    My neighbour, a lady in her eighties, told me of how her father was killed in a road traffic accident when she was a child.

    Her mother knew the person who run him down and the fact that he had a drink problem.

    She did not report it to the police because she said he had been punished enough having to live with the guilt and his family had enough to deal with him being an alcoholic and also it would just mean another life wasted for it would not bring her husband back.

    That is a heart that knows forgiveness and puts mine to shame.

    Why me Lord? what have I ever done
    To deserve even one of the pleasures I’ve known
    Tell me Lord what did I ever do to deserve loving You?
    And the kindness, you’ve shown

    Lord Heavenly Jesus, I’m wasted and
    So help me Jesus, I know what I am
    Now that I know that I needed you so
    Help me Jesus, my souls in you hands

    Tell me Lord, if you think there’s a way
    I can ever repay, what I’ve taken from You
    Maybe Lord, I can show someone else
    What I’ve been through myself
    On my way back to You

    Lord Heavenly Jesus, I praise Him
    So help me Jesus, I know what I am, oh yes
    Now that I know that I needed You so
    Help me Jesus, my soul’s in Your hands
    Jesus, my souls in Your hands

  34. foreverblessed says:

    Praise God Saled, what a good news that is!
    It reminded me of the lady in Acts, she was making such nice clothes. And she was healed, what was her name, Dorkas?
    Your sister’s help out here is still needed!

    Thank you so much for the song Jeff!
    My soul’s in your hands.
    Knowing that we need the Holy Spirit to guide us.
    And yet, my heart is very eager to do it myself.
    My husband helps a handicapped lady, she was hit by a car when she was 19, long history of IC, etc etc. One side of her body is not working well. But amazingly, she lives on her own now.
    Last Easter Sunday, we took her out, going into the car, seatbelt on. She wants to do it herself, my husband stands next to her, watching and waiting, seeing her struggling to get things done.
    After a while he says: Wouldn’t it be easier if I did that?
    And then the tought came into my mind: That is how the Holy Spirit is with us, standing alongside, and seeing how we want to do it ourselves, instead of throwing ourselves at His mercy, and saying to God: I want to forgive, please in YOu mercy grant us your forgiveness towards others.

    “My souls in Your hands”

    Now, this topic is about the unpardonable sin, I would think that our struggling to give ourselves over is, a struggle, and that we are not on the edge of the unpardonable sin. And that the Holy Spirit will help us, if we keep on saying: I believe, help me my unbelief.

  35. SFDBWV says:

    I started to write this morning on our subject and found myself beginning to ramble so I deleted and went on to other things.

    One of the things I have come to realize is that I cannot be perfect even as God the Father is perfect. One more of the things that came out of the mouth of our Lord. Matthew 5:48 KJV

    It should be clear to us that we cannot take one verse of Scripture and build a doctrine around it on its own. But plenty of people do.

    It also should be clear to us that we cannot choose and pick what we want to believe from Scripture and ignore the rest.

    Romans 12:19 KJV and Hebrews 10:30 KJV states that revenge belongs to the Lord.

    However look at Romans 10:26 KJV “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins.”

    There is a lot of Scripture verses that can scare the he– out us and should.

    Only in the study of the whole of Scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit can truth and peace come.

    To coin a phrase we must not “rush to judgement”.

    A wet morning at 58 degrees.


  36. SFDBWV says:

    oops Hebrews 10:26 KJV


  37. foreverblessed says:

    Yes, Steve, that is what I found too, I can indeed ramble along.
    But after having thought about what Mart wrote,citing the George, in my own words:

    I find myself much more comfortable to further study and give admonition about:
    forgiving the other, or: forgive as you have been forgiven,
    then that I would spend much time on trying to find the explanation of what the unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit is.

    And as is said already here, IF we are anxious we have sinned against the HS, we probably have not done that.

  38. poohpity says:

    Yes people can take scripture out of context to apply it to their own meaning like the one you gave Steve Matt 5:48 when Jesus was speaking about loving our enemies like God did when He sent Jesus to die for His enemies and sinners. But one thing for sure the whole bible is about forgiveness, mercy and grace so it is really not hard to pick out scriptures that can stand alone on the matter.

    Forgiveness is not usually something that just happens in the blink of the eye at least it isn’t for me, normally it is a process over time and we do need God’s help. Each time an action or person comes to mind we have to like mtman said, “an act of the will” make a choice to forgive and turn them over to God. The process of healing takes time. God also reminds me of the things He has forgiven me for.

    Here on Resurrection Sunday a 74 yo man was shot on his way back from church for no reason and the family has made the choice to forgive because they said the person who shot him had already caused enough damage to the family not to. They also said that their dad would have wanted it that way.

  39. poohpity says:

    Redeemed by Big Daddy Weave

    Seems like all I can see was the struggle
    Haunted by ghosts that lived in my past
    Bound up in shackles of all my failures
    Wondering how long is this gonna last
    Then You look at this prisoner and say to me “son
    Stop fighting a fight that’s already been won”

    I am redeemed, You set me free
    So I’ll shake off theses heavy chains
    And wipe away every stain now I’m not who I used to be
    I am redeemed
    I’m redeemed

    All my life I have been called unworthy
    Named by the voice of my shame and regret
    But when I hear You whisper, “Child lift up your head”
    I remember oh God, You’re not done with me yet

    I am redeemed, You set me free
    So I’ll shake off theses heavy chains
    And wipe away every stain now I’m not who I used to be
    Because I don’t have to be the old man inside of me
    ‘Cause his day is long dead and gone
    Because I’ve got a new name, a new life I’m not the same
    And a hope that will carry me home

    I am redeemed, You set me free
    So I’ll shake off theses heavy chains
    And wipe away every stain now I’m not who I used to be

    I am redeemed, You set me free
    So I’ll shake off theses heavy chains
    And wipe away every stain now I’m not who I used to be

    Oh God I’m not who I used to be
    Jesus I’m not who I used to be

    ‘Cause I am redeemed
    Thank God, redeemed

    Unforgiveness is also heavy chains of captivity of the person/s who committed the offense. We have been redeemed(forgiven) so why not share that with others it is not easy but it is possible.

  40. joycemb says:

    There seems to be a lot of fear here in reading some scriptures. But the bible also says that “perfect love casts out fear”. Read scripture through the eyes of love as in through Gods eyes.

  41. poohpity says:

    We also can find scriptures to back up when we do not want to forgive someone because we feel we are in the right or make excuses or blame to hold on to our anger and hate.

    Our country at this time is holding on to hate and anger and it is breaking our country apart.

  42. jeff1 says:

    Pooh, that has been going on in my country since I was a teenager. History repeats itself and truthfully I would rather see my sons leave here so that they will not be contaminated with that hate and anger.

    When I left this country to go on holidays I was a new person because no one cared what religion or nationality I was so I could be myself. It is not healthy to live in the past but I live in a country where they do and my advice to my children is to make a life away from such an environment.

    The younger generation needs a chance to get living in the present but our politicians here won’t do it because they are stuck in the past and so the best thing for them is to live elsewhere.

    I feel for the next generation because good leadership is needed and we do not seem to have the people with the will to do it.

    Like your country we are so divided I can see little hope for change.

  43. poohpity says:

    We too have had divisions for many years we had the civil war between north and south but now it seems to be the government against the people. We have had color divisions, party divisions, social divisions, economic divisions, oh my so many. I would imagine that the devil just loves all the divisions because God told us that a house divided will not stand. So it would be nice if each one of us as followers of Christ spent time not adding fuel to the fire but by being peace keepers and grace givers. :-)

  44. street says:

    Does that resonate with you? Can you in good conscience believe that when it comes to matters “unforgivable”, what remains to be seen is “the kind of unforgiveness” that One as merciful as Jesus could only have meant?

    the long suffering of love. hope. thinking, loving an unforgivable is one thing, patiently waiting for for opportunity to love for nothing instead of waiting for revenge is just as painful as revenge could be. revenge leaves all the emptiness of death and loneliness no matter how sweet you may think it could be.

    Jesus truly destroyed sin and death! oh that i could know the fellowship of Christ suffering.

  45. narrowpathseeker says:

    Who would go to a seminar on “Prospering Financially” hosted by one who has continued to live in extreme poverty?

    Who would read a book on Love and Family Harmony written by the head of a household to which the police are called monthly for domestic violence?

    Who would go to the ER with gangrene in their entire foot and have the doctor treat a scratch on their arm and totally ignore the foot?

    Who would go for counseling for guidance in any area from one who can’t get their own life on track?

    I think God provided massive information in the bible for our guidance and some may understand more than others but I don’t think anybody knows too much for certain….especially people that claim to know the most and display absolutely no evidence that they know anything other than the ability to parrot verses.

    We are told that God used a jackass to speak to one of His prophets. We are also told about the gift of discernment. I know we get plenty of tests in this life as I have flunked plenty of them. I have finally passed the course of recognizing a jackass speaking or writing……… but discerning whether God is using them to speak to me or it is just blatting could still be a test for me to fail.

    I agree with all that we can’t be perfect, but I think those that TRY to be the best they can be and confess their offenses are readily lovable and forgivable and huggable and I find it hard to believe that any that try, fail, confess and are remorseful could be unforgivable ….I can forgive them and I KNOW that God is a gazillion times better than me.

  46. street says:

    “If we are bound to search after what our Lord means—and he speaks that we may understand—we are at least equally bound to refuse any interpretation which seems to us unlike him, unworthy of him.”

    seems to me that we get back to right where we started when we try to interpret Scripture. with out Christ Spirit we are dead. we must go to the fountain.

  47. poohpity says:

    If someone does not parrot/share scripture then some may never hear what it teaches any other way any because many do not read it for themselves. I do not see anything wrong with that as long as it goes with the topic otherwise we would just be listening to people’s opinions or worldly wisdom and not to what God teaches.Proverbs 3:5-7 NLT

    Who better to teach about forgiveness than one who has been forgiven much? Luke 7:47 NLT

  48. poohpity says:

    “we are at least equally bound to refuse any interpretation which seems to us unlike him, unworthy of him.”

    There are many times that people who do not know God very well who will try to teach us things that seem unlike or do not seem to go along with the very character and nature of God or are unworthy of Him those are the one’s it is wise to beware of. BUT one can only identify that if they themselves know God and it does not have to be a vast knowledge but only a glimpse especially when it comes to forgiveness, mercy or grace.

  49. poohpity says:

    That last comment was directed at street’s 3:13pm comment.

  50. joycemb says:

    Today’s seedbed is very good.

  51. jeff1 says:

    I truly believe that God is more concerned with us trusting Him than understanding Him because He knows our limitations.

    It is evident that the biblical characters were far from perfect yet God used them because they trusted Him which says that faith is as important as understanding.

    Also the God on the mountain is still God in the valley and can sustain me in whatever circumstances I find myself in.

    It is when I start looking at the things of this world that causes me to doubt God and forget that He is all powerful but me forgetting does not change the fact that God is still all powerful and what I see is not reality in God’s domain.

    The evil I see and live with is defeated in God’s domain and when I focus on that truth then I regain my confidence in God and that He is still omniscient in a disintegrating world.

    I am thinking of followers like my dad and no matter what life threw at him he rise to the challenge because his faith was solid.

    Walk on, walk on, with hope in your heart and you’ll never walk alone because it is ‘Jesus’ who resides there with you.

  52. street says:

    “we are at least equally bound to refuse any interpretation which seems to us unlike him, unworthy of him.”

    thinking of job refusing his three theological friends, accusing him of serious hidden sin. we know even before the storm job was blameless and God was very pleased with him. there was none like him in all the earth. job’s knowledge of God by hearing was greatly expanded by meeting with God face to face. job spoke well, Jesus speaks better. it’s the speaking of others that we would do well to know and understand God’s Word. it is in listening to others and our very own hearts that get us into trouble. therefore a cross.

    when we set ourselves up as the interpreter of scripture, to me, it is putting oneself on dangerous ground. thinking you might say it is impossible then? thinking the light is distorted/blocked by our own hearts and minds. removing the board or obstacles is paramount. how do you do that? faith doesn’t faith come by hearing. i think job was on the right tack in asking for a court date with God. job’s a man of faith in God and trusted him to get through difficult times. even chaos.

  53. poohpity says:

    Yes faith comes by hearing the word of God(Romans 10:17 NLT).

    Just like anyone we are in love with we want to find out all we can about them, that is why we are called into a relationship with God. He knows us so well and just like any relationship He also wants us to know Him.

  54. SFDBWV says:

    The picture of the statue of the scholar contemplating some deep thought, reminds me once again how I envy those who just take things for what they are and don’t think beyond it.

    I have never been so fortunate. In fact I far too often “over think” some things.

    The topic “Unforgiveable” opens up one of those “books” of thoughts I have which one always leads to another and another and so on. Difficult to stay on track most often.

    When we think of God we think of a Spirit being that is all knowing and everywhere at once. All powerful with enemies that can never outwit or win out over His will.

    However is it possible that God is fallible? That He can make mistakes? Have regrets? Change His mind?

    Such things seem to be more of a human condition rather than our concept of God.


    As we read in Genesis every day of creation was pronounced as good, even the creation of man, both male and female and told to fill the earth, that being the 6th day. Genesis 1:27 KJV Genesis 1:28 KJV Genesis 1:31 KJV

    However in Genesis 2:18 KJV God says it is not good for man to be alone so after parading every creature of creation before Adam to name, there was not a “proper helper” found in all creation (Genesis 2:20 KJV). So God *constructed* woman out of what He had already created, man. Genesis 2:21 KJV Genesis 2:22 KJV and Genesis 2:23 KJV

    Was this an afterthought of God? A mistake rectified?

    There in the Garden was Adam and Eve, naked and unashamed to be naked because they did not know any better. Totally innocent because they did not even know the difference between right and wrong or technically stated the difference between “good and evil”.

    Also they were vulnerable and unprotected from God’s enemy.

    I will shorten the story for the purpose of sparing me the trouble of writing it all down, as most of you know that the serpent/Satan beguiled Eve into disobeying God and Adam followed suit. The result being swift and unforgiving punishment administered to both.

    No forgiveness for Adam and Eve. Their *sin* was unforgivable.

    Now I know forgiveness comes many thousands of years later, but there is more thought to this subject for me to “think about”

    I am going to stop here now, for the sake of time and take this up in my next comments later this morning.

    47 degrees and wet after brief showers overnight.


  55. jeff1 says:

    Job’s trusting of God proved that He did know God because Job was willing to trust God even if He slayed him and that is what ‘Jesus’ did He went to the cross trusting in His Father that it was necessary for the redemption of the world.

    The church’s one foundation
    is Jesus Christ her Lord;
    She is his new creation
    By water and the Word.
    From heaven he came and sought her
    To be his holy bride;
    With his own blood he bought her,
    And for her life he died.

    Elect from every nation,
    Yet one o’er all the earth;
    Her charter of salvation,
    One Lord, one faith, one birth;
    One holy name she blesses,
    Partakes one holy food,
    And to one hope she presses,
    With every grace endued.

    Through with a scornful wonder
    We see her sore oppressed,
    By schisms rent asunder,
    By heresies distressed,
    Yet saints their watch are keeping:
    Their cry goes up, “How Long?”
    And soon the night of weeping
    Shall be the morn of song.

    Mid toil and tribulation,
    And tumult of her war,
    She waits the consummation
    Of peace for evermore;
    Till with the vision glorious,
    Her longing eyes are blest,
    And the great church victorious
    Shall be the church at rest.

    Yet she on earth hath union
    With God the three in One,
    And mystic sweet communion
    With those whose rest is won.
    O happy ones and holy!
    Lord, give us grace that we
    Like them, the meek and lowly,
    On high may dwell with thee.

  56. jeff1 says:

    Redeemed—how I love to proclaim it!
    Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb;
    Redeemed through His infinite mercy,
    His child, and forever, I am.

    Redeemed, redeemed,
    Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb;
    Redeemed, redeemed,
    His child, and forever, I am.

    Redeemed and so happy in Jesus,
    No language my rapture can tell;
    I know that the light of His presence
    With me doth continually dwell.

    I think of my blessed Redeemer,
    I think of Him all the day long;
    I sing, for I cannot be silent;
    His love is the theme of my song.

    I know I shall see in His beauty
    The King in whose way I delight;
    Who lovingly guardeth my footsteps,
    And giveth me songs in the night.

  57. joycemb says:

    If someone doesn’t apologize for their words/actions does that make them “unforgivable”? Did Jesus require others to apologize for betraying, insulting, hurting and killing him? Just thinking.. Jesus said “Father, forgive them, they don’t know what they are doing”. Seems to be outrageously upside down to our sensibilities I think. Jesus didn’t make sense then and now it seems to me. Having a Way of Christ worldview will always confound the worldview of nationalism. Best to keep my head focused on whats important to me.

    Have a blessed weekend all.
    Enjoying our so far 2 months of spring weather up north here but we could use a few days of rain.

  58. remarutho says:

    Good Morning BTA Friends —

    Steve, you write:

    “…the serpent/Satan beguiled Eve into disobeying God and Adam followed suit. The result being swift and unforgiving punishment administered to both.”

    Holding in faith that the Creator God is infallible, I read your comment and Scriptures, Steve, then kept reading this morning as God cursed first the serpent, then Eve and then Adam. Lowest place for the snake, subjugation and pain for Eve, and toil and opposition from the plants of the field for Adam.

    What interests me this morning in the fourth chapter of the book you are quoting is the pronouncement God makes: “See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”

    God belays the giving of eternal life that day — but He has been at work ever since to see to it that all who believe in Him through His Son will eat from the tree of life, as obedient members of His kingdom.

    Surely God clearly saw from there that His plan to deliver His whole creation from oblivion and death would culminate on a tree on a hill outside Jerusalem.

    God’s grace has never ceased to be His purpose and will, it seems to me. Forgiveness is a huge part of the plan, isn’t it?


    12C/53F here with clear skies at dawn.

  59. remarutho says:

    Happy Earth Day, BTA!

  60. joycemb says:

    Beautiful Maru, thank you.

  61. SFDBWV says:

    Moving along we read in Genesis 3:22 KJV that God is disturbed that now that man “has become as one of us: to know good and evil.” He might also eat from the tree of life and live forever. And so in Genesis 3:23 Adam is “sent forth” from the Garden of Eden.

    Wondering what could disturb God?

    So the story goes on to the two sons of Adam and Eve, Cain the first and Abel the second.

    Cain makes an offering of grain grudgingly to God and Abel one of his little sheep gladly.

    In Genesis 4:4 KJV we read that God had respect for Abel and his offering, while in Genesis 4:5 KJV we read that God did not respect Cain nor his offering.

    God liked Abel better than Cain, because of their behavior and heart.

    In what only can be interpreted as a jealous rage Cain kills Abel (Genesis 4:8 KJV).

    Most know how the story goes, God asks Cain where is your brother, whereby Cain gives a smart-alecky answer.

    God then says to Cain “The voice of thy brother’s blood cries unto me from the ground.”

    Abel calls out for justice/revenge for his murder.

    God promptly curses Cain in all of his efforts and marks him to be recognized adding the curse to anyone else who may slay him sevenfold. Genesis 4:11-15 KJV

    So far no forgiveness offered to anyone for their wrong doings.

    Which brings me to Genesis 6:5 KJV whereby God sees the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and in Genesis 6:6 KJV God repents that He had made man and grieved Him in His heart. In Genesis 6:7 God declares His intent to destroy all of mankind including the beasts the creeping things and the fowl of the air because it repented Him that He had made them.

    No forgiveness nor mercy for all flesh wherein is the breath of life. Genesis 6:17 KJV

    Again I am running long on writing and short on time.

    More along this train of thought when time allows.

    Rain and 43 degrees.


    PS before posting, I read your thoughts Maru and agree that mercy and forgiveness is and always was Gods intention. That as the story of man unfolds no one is going to see it from the actions of God until that hour on the cross. In my thoughts it was the intention of God from before creation, or else God made mistakes that He had to fix. Something I have trouble believing.

  62. poohpity says:

    God’s first merciful and forgiving act was when He killed an animal(shed blood) to cover the shame felt by Adam and Eve by their nakedness.(Genesis 3:21) The second merciful and forgiving thing He did was to send them out of the garden so they would live eternally in their fallen state. (Genesis 3:22)

  63. poohpity says:

    Then there are multiple upon multiple occasions throughout the OT where God showed mercy, forgiveness and grace. If one reads it they will find that continually people walked away from God but God never gave up on them, now if that is not mercy, forgiveness or grace then I do not know what is. God always remaining faithful to be there when they returned.

  64. poohpity says:

    If God never changes then His mercy for His creation has always existed. This is the very reason it is so important to get to know God better then one will see that His character has remained the same.

    Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good!
    His faithful love endures forever.
    Give thanks to the God of gods.
    His faithful love endures forever.
    Give thanks to the Lord of lords.
    His faithful love endures forever.

    Give thanks to him who alone does mighty miracles.
    His faithful love endures forever.
    Give thanks to him who made the heavens so skillfully.
    His faithful love endures forever.
    Give thanks to him who placed the earth among the waters.
    His faithful love endures forever.
    Give thanks to him who made the heavenly lights—
    His faithful love endures forever.
    the sun to rule the day,
    His faithful love endures forever.
    and the moon and stars to rule the night.
    His faithful love endures forever………….

    He remembered us in our weakness.
    His faithful love endures forever.
    He saved us from our enemies.
    His faithful love endures forever.
    He gives food to every living thing.
    His faithful love endures forever.
    Give thanks to the God of heaven.
    His faithful love endures forever. Psalm 136

  65. jeff1 says:

    This is perhaps one of the most beautiful hymns that speaks of God’s love; which is divine; and beyond our understanding because it is unconditional while we have expectations of others God just requires our trust that He loves us.

    Love divine, all loves excelling,
    Joy of heaven to earth come down;
    Fix in us thy humble dwelling;
    All thy faithful mercies crown!
    Jesus, thou art all compassion,
    Pure, unbounded love Thou art;
    Visit us with Thy salvation;
    Enter every trembling heart.

    Breathe, O breathe Thy loving Spirit,
    Into every troubled breast!
    Let us all in Thee inherit;
    Let us find that promised rest.
    Take away our bent to sinning;
    Alpha and Omega be;
    End of faith, as its Beginning,
    Set our hearts at liberty.

    Come, Almighty to deliver,
    Let us all Thy life receive;
    Suddenly return and never,
    Never more Thy temples leave.
    Thee we would be always blessing,
    Serve Thee as Thy hosts above,
    Pray and praise Thee without ceasing,
    Glory in Thy perfect love.

    Finish, then Thy new creation;
    Pure and spotless let us be.
    Let us see Thy great salvation
    Perfectly restored in Thee;
    Changed from glory into glory,
    ‘Til in heaven we take our place,
    ‘Til we cast our crowns before Thee,
    Lost in wonder, love and praise.

  66. joycemb says:

    Jeremiah 6:16New International Version (NIV)

    16 This is what the Lord says:

    “Stand at the crossroads and look;
    ask for the ancient paths,
    ask where the good way is, and walk in it,
    and you will find rest for your souls.

    Its a choice I make, its always my choice to make no matter what my circumstances may be.

  67. joycemb says:

    Viv I agree we do and will have expectations of others which is why we get so disappointed oftentimes but Oswald Chambers had a great way of dealing with. When he found someone troubling he would think to himself, “That man, that woman, perfect in Christ Jesus!” Only God can perfect us because only the atonement can change us and nothing else. And yes His love covers a multitude of sins- mine and the other persons.

  68. joycemb says:

    (with them.)

  69. jeff1 says:

    Thinking of the timelessness of Helen Steiner Rice’s poems as I choose this one to reflect on.

    There is no thinking person
    Who can stand untouched today
    And view the world around us
    Slowly drifting to decay
    Without feeling deep within him
    A silent, unnamed dread
    As he contemplates the future
    That lies frighteningly ahead…
    For, like watching storm clouds gather
    In a dark and threatening sky,
    Man knows that there is nothing
    He can formulate or try
    That will stop the storm from breaking
    In its fury and its force,
    Nor can he change or alter
    The storm’s destructive course,
    But his anxious fears are lessened
    When he calls on God above,
    For he known above the storm clouds
    Is the brightness of God’s love…
    So as the “clouds of chaos”
    Gather in man’s muddled mind,
    And he searches for the answer
    He alone can never find,
    Let us recognize we’re facing
    Problems man has never solved,
    And with all our daily efforts
    Life grows more and more involved,
    But our future will seem brighter
    And we’ll meet with less resistance
    If we call upon our Father
    And seek Divine Assistance…
    For the spirit can unravel
    Many tangled, knotted threads
    That defy the skill and power
    Of the world’s best hands and heads,
    And our plans for growth and progress,
    Of which we all have dreamed,
    Cannot survive materially
    Unless our spirits are redeemed…
    And only through a living faith
    Can man achieve this goal,
    For safety and security
    Are born within the soul.

  70. mtman says:

    Steve wrote about original sin:
    ‘the serpent/Satan beguiled Eve into disobeying God and Adam followed suit. The result being swift and unforgiving punishment administered to both’.

    God not only punished but like with David’s adultery he also punished him. The ultimate punishment would have been to destroy the guilty and start over but that would imply God makes mistakes which He does not. I also believe that God was delighted when he paraded the animals/birds in front of Adam to name. After than things started to go south for man.

    I think what God did in these two incidents was reveal to man that sin carries consequences and accountability. We can be forgiven our sins (except the one unforgivable sin) but we still have the consequences from that sin or the accountability factor to deal with.

    It seems now days people do not want nor do they think they deserve accountability. I hear often that it was just a ‘bad decision’ or a ‘mistake’ and to ‘move on’. That seems to excuse the concept of accepting accountability for your sin or act.

    Failure to accept accountability for the act seems to me to be making God a celestial servant that forgives us our ‘mistakes/bad decisions’, stands us back up and dusts us off so we can go about our life without any consequences or accountability.

    Adam, Eve and David all were punished and were held by God to be accountable for their acts. I think it is important to remember that beyond the punishment there is accountability.

    Also, those punished admitted their mistake or at least acknowledged it and suffered the consequences. Now days we can soft petal God’s words but we can’t escape the consequences.

  71. joycemb says:

    Yes the consequences of sin is death. But Jesus came to give life everlasting! Jesus said if we forgive we will also be forgiven. I’d hate to have to wait it out for someone to ask my forgiveness before I could forgive them!

    Watching and waiting for Jesus’ return. I never know when that will be but I want to be ready!

  72. poohpity says:

    I do not remember Adam or Eve admitting to what they did wrong however they did blame each other, God and then the serpent.

  73. joycemb says:

    I think accountability is an important part of relationship. Within the body of Christ it is so important to remain accountable to each other which includes the social graces of kindness, honesty and forgiveness. If I am withholding my apology it also creates a chasm and lack of trust. Grace allows me to apologize with humility trusting that healing will take place because it is the will of God- so long as all are submitted or at least committed to His will.

    Thinking I’ll bet Adam and Eve had some heart wrenching discussions while hiding out from their Creator.

  74. foreverblessed says:

    I think so too, Joyce! I’ll bet they have lived their whole life to find their way back to God!
    ( Some people who have seen visions of heaven, have seen Adam and Eve, even Solomon)

    Jeff, thank you so much for your songs and poems!
    They are full of the Gospel!

  75. foreverblessed says:

    The poem speaks of chaos, just as Street talked of chaos, that reminds me of the work of the Holy Spirit in us, letting us see what our own thoughts are, and what His thoughts are. Dividing the thoughts so to speak.

  76. foreverblessed says:

    Mart asks a question, does it resonate with you. And I was thinking about what he was asking: That God not so much was withholding “eternal salvation”

    God is more not willing to ignore a condition of heart that is

    1 resisting the HS

    2 the bitterness of an unforgiving heart towards others, that makes that our hearts shut out the influence of God in us.

    Yes, that is resonating with me!

    And as soon as God sees that the condition of a heart has changed, even after eons and eons, that is what the Greek word is saying, Eons and eons, ever and ever, then there is an entracne of God to start working in a heart!

    All scriptures together work for me. And when there is Psalm 136 that says in every verse of the Psalm, the
    His mercy endures forever. Psalm 136:1(KJV)

    International Standard Bible says, gracious l ove,
    New Standard Bible says: lovingkindness

    In the biblehub, the interlinear section:
    Has-dow His covenant loyalty , or favour Strong ‘s 2617

    Every verse!

    And the other bible verse that says:
    God hears everryone that call out to Him
    As soon as He heart someone shouting to God, Oh God save me, He will respond, no matter how long that will take.
    Because God also says, He is Love, 1 John4:8
    and Love always Hopes 1 Cor 13:7

    It may seem now that I say, so it is the scriptures must be read! I am only saying: this is how I read the scriptures.

  77. jeff1 says:

    I must not put the cart before the horse in that I am accountable to God before I am accountable to another.

    Until my relationship with God is right my relationship with others will not be.

    God knows what He is doing even if I do not!

    I’ve heard a thousand stories of what they think you’re like
    But I’ve heard the tender whispers of love in the dead of night
    And you tell me that you’re pleased
    And that I’m never alone

    You’re a good good Father
    Its who You are, its who You are, its who You are
    And I’m loved by You
    It’s who I am, it’s who I am, it’s who I am

    I’ve seen many searching for answers far and wide
    But I know we’re only searching
    For answers only you can provide
    ‘Cause you know just what we need
    Before we say a word

    You’re a good good Father
    It’s who You are, it’s who You are, it’s who You are
    And I’m loved by You
    It’s who I am, it’s who I am, it’s who I am

    Because you are perfect in all of Your ways
    You are perfect in all of Your ways
    You are perfect in all of Your ways to us

    You are perfect in all of Your ways
    You are perfect in all of Your ways
    You are perfect in all of Your ways to us

    Oh, it’s love so undeniable
    I, I can hardly speak
    Peace so unexplainable
    I, I can hardly think
    As you call me deeper still
    As you call me deeper still
    As you call me deeper still
    into love, love, love

    You’re a good good Father
    It’s who You are, it’s who You are, it’s who You are
    And I’m loved by You
    It’s who I am, it’s who I am, it’s who I am

    You’re a good good Father
    It’s who You are, it’s who You are, it’s who You are
    And I’m loved by You
    It’s who I am, it’s who I am, it’s who I am

    You’re a good good Father
    It’s who You are, it’s who You are, it’s who You are
    And I’m loved by You
    It’s who I am, it’s who I am, it’s who I am

    You are perfect in all of Your ways
    It’s who You are, it’s who You are, it’s who You are
    And I’m loved by You
    You are perfect in all of Your ways
    It’s who I am, it’s who I am, it’s who I am

  78. SFDBWV says:

    My apologies to all as trying to keep a train of thought for days on end is difficult enough, but to have so many distractions as I do and continue on right where I left of is nearly impossible.

    The subject being that there is something so bad that it is unforgivable and that we are judged by how we judge others seems almost unmanageable.

    Once again we are faced with two sets of rewards or punishments.

    One for here and now the other for once we die.

    People here and now live in abject poverty, in merciless suffering and pain, under the heel of oppression, unhappy and worse even though they are believers. Because they believe in a better life to come they can endure life.

    It is the hope that Jesus provides that keeps any of us going on.

    We are told that God never changes, He is the same forever.

    I took us back to the beginning to show that God is God and will do as He wants no matter how many lives are effected here and now.

    From my human heart and from my understanding of right and wrong I don’t understand why there was a “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” even in the garden.
    I don’t understand why God didn’t forgive Adam and Eve outright as we are now expected to regarding others who have wronged us.

    Except to show a coming world that sin /disobedience would be punished.

    Twice in the story in Genesis when sins were committed God ask the offender what had happened.

    There is no way that God did not already know. So “reading between the lines” we have come to believe this is showing that we are to confess our sins to God and then ask for forgiveness.

    Neither Adam and Eve nor Cain ask for forgiveness. Adam blamed Eve and Cain just remained disgruntled. Both were punished.

    The entire world of man seemed to become out of control with only Noah finding favor and so the entire world of man was punished.

    What do I learn from the story? To acknowledge my sins to God and to acknowledge my trespasses against another and to ask forgiveness of both.

    How do I apply this to our subject of there being an unforgivable sin and being judged as we judge others?

    I cannot expect forgiveness from God unless I repent and ask for it, I cannot expect another to forgive me unless I am willing to forgive them.

    But what then if they don’t ask for forgiveness from me, if they don’t consider they have trespassed against me and just continue to trespass?

    Is it now impossible for me to forgive them since they have not awaken to their wrong doing ask forgiveness and repented?

    Is the same applied then to God as there being an unforgiveable sin? If we don’t acknowledge we have sinned and ask forgiveness is forgiveness withheld?

    “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.”

    So then now what do we do with this, one of the last statements from the mouth of Jesus?

    A lot easier to just not think of such things and just be at peace knowing we have received our forgiveness through Jesus.

    Exhausted, 36 degrees and foggy.


  79. jeff1 says:

    Enjoyed this song from the gospel hour this morning and sung by Amy Grant.

    El shaddai, el shaddai,
    El-elyon na adonia,
    Age to age You’re still the same,
    By the power of the name.
    El shaddai, el shaddai,
    Erkamka na adonai,
    We will praise and lift you high,
    El shaddai.

    Through Your love and through the ram,
    You saved the son of Abraham;
    Through the power of Your hand,
    Turned the sea into dry land.
    To the outcast on her knees.
    You where the God who really sees.
    And by Your might you set Your children free.

    El shaddai, el shaddai,
    El elyon na adonia,
    Age to age You’re still the same,
    By the power of the name
    El shaddai, el shaddai,
    Erkamka na adonia,
    We will praise and lift You high,
    El shaddai.

    Through the years You’ve made it clear,
    That the time of Christ was near,
    Though the people couldn’t see
    What messiah ought to be.
    Though your word contained the plan,
    They just could not understand
    Your most awesome work was done
    Through the frailty of Your son.

    El shaddai, el shaddai,
    El-elyon na adonai,
    Age to age You’re still the same,
    By the power of the name.
    El shaddai, el shaddai,
    Erkamka na adonai,
    I will praise you ’til I die.
    El shaddai

    El shaddai, el shaddai,
    El-elyon na adonai,
    Age to age You’re still the same,
    By the power of Your name
    El shaddai, el shaddai,
    Erkamka na adonai,
    I will praise you ’till I die.
    El shaddai.

  80. jeff1 says:

    Unforgiven is man’s territory and not God’s.

    This is the song that made me realize how important it was to belong.

    It also awakened me to the truth that people without even realizing it could be insensitive and ignorant to another’s feelings.

    Although I do not think it was written with anyone in mind I can imagine that it fits many who feel unwanted or unloved in the world today.

    It is why I need God because when all around me misunderstand me I feel great empathy with this child.

    I’m nobody’s child I’m nobody’s child I’m like a flower just growing wild
    There’s no mommy’s kisses and no daddy’s smiles
    Nobody wants me I’m nobody’s child

    I was slowly passing an orphan’s home one day
    And stopped there for a moment just to watch the children play
    Alone a boy was standin’ and when I ask him why
    He turned his eyes that couldn’t see and he began to cry
    People come for children and take them for their own

    But they all seem to pass me by and leave me all alone
    I know they’d like to take me but when they see I’m blind
    They always take some other child and I am left behind
    I’m nobody’s child…

    No mother’s arms to soothe me or hold me when I cry
    Sometimes it get so lonely here I wish that I could die
    I’d walk the streets of heaven where all the blind can see
    And just like for the other kids there’d be a home for me
    No mommy’s kisses and no daddy’s smiles nobody wants me I’m nobody child

  81. joycemb says:

    Steve some good thoughts this morning. Your wrestling before God is exactly what He wants I think. Thinking further that if we are created “imago Deo” then are we not sinning against God when we sin against others? Who was it that said “against you and you only have I sinned”. It certainly gives me more to think about in my interactions with others.

  82. joycemb says:

    It was David psalm 54:1

  83. joycemb says:

    Psalm 54:1

  84. joycemb says:

    Psalm 51:4 rather

  85. joycemb says:

    eFor there is no distinction: 23 for fall have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, ithrough the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

  86. SFDBWV says:

    Got Matt taken care of, the chicken ready to go in the oven. (I brown chicken breasts and thighs in olive oil, then place it in a mixture of BBQ sauce, onions, and chicken broth to bake later). Went and got water at the spring, cleaned up the kitchen and have a little time before Matt goes to the shower.

    Just as an afterthought on my lengthy thoughts these past few days I was reminded of two things this morning while before the Lord. Intercessory prayer and blocked prayer.

    Questioning if it is that we can pray on the behalf of others, does that cover their lack of asking for forgiveness?
    And reminded that when we have un-forgiveness in our hearts as we go to prayer with God that un-forgiveness from us can interfere if not block out our prayers.

    48 degrees and clear.


  87. phpatato says:

    Following on what you have said Steve –

    I think of my own family. When my son or daughter or husband or even myself does something hurtful and wrong, there is a strain put on the relationship. The closeness we shared, the relationship we had is now broken. I think of the closeness as being a bridge. The easy access back and forth to each other now has a plank that is missing. The longer the wrong is not dealt with, the more the planks break making the gap wider. It is only when the person who did the wrong asks for forgiveness can the bridge be made new; the relationship restored; the closeness become real and alive again.

    Is the family of God any different? The Bible tells us that when we trust Jesus to be our Lord and Saviour by becoming born again (a second birth), we become His heirs – we become sons of God – we are brothers and sisters in Christ – we become family members in God’s eyes. So when a fellow professing Christian does a wrong toward other Christian, the relationship stays broken until the offender apologizes.

    God calls all wrongs sin. Because He cannot look at sin, the relationship we have with Him is broken when there is sin in our lives. Only when we confess those sins is the relationship – that bridge – repaired. So like as in my very own family unit, as in my Christian family unit, as in my relationship with God, any wrong that I don’t acknowledge and ask forgiveness for is sin and that means there is a broken plank in the bridge. I may be able to stomach a broken plank in my relationship with my son, daughter or husband but to know I have a broken plank between God and myself….well that is not only walking a slippery slope, that is walking each day with a strained relationship with my Lord.

    1 John 1:9 uses the word confess. Confessing is defined as “admit or state that one has committed a crime or is at fault in some way”. So that means acknowledging the wrongs we have done, taking ownership of them and being humbled before God to ask forgiveness. Then in order to re-establish our earthly relationships, we do the same…confess our wrongs and ask forgiveness.

    ….If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness….

    Dear Lord, help me to always be humble enough to admit my wrongs, not only to you but to my family members as well.

    Beautiful spring sunny day with a forecast high of 17C.


  88. joycemb says:

    Pat thanks that’s a perfect analogy.

  89. joycemb says:

    Steve I know first hand about blocked prayers. I was a caregiver early in my walk with the LORD of a man who was sick and dieing. This man had done horrible things to his wife and daughter for which they never seen justice for. He was continually grabbing at women even from his wheelchair/bed. I was scared and hated him at the same time which made it hard to work with him to say the least. I talked to the LORD about him all the time, but my prayers became ones for vengeance much like David’s. One day he lay dying and suddenly turned to me and asked me to pray for him- I was shocked! I began to pray and the LORD said to me ” I can’t hear your prayer as you have placed a curse on him.” Suddenly I had to backtrack, repent and ask forgiveness. As I did so I was able to lift his sin sick soul to Jesus and ask for forgiveness for his sins that his soul would be saved. Then he died. Lesson learned for me that day and hopefully a child of God home with his creator. We never really know do we how far his grace extends. Best to leave it to Him to decide I think.

  90. poohpity says:

    Wasn’t the bridge repaired between us and God at the Cross? Admission of guilt does not free God it frees us from carrying it any longer. Each person over their life time continues to sin but one will not be so much aware of their own when they are constantly looking at others. Then they will miss the very one’s that have gotten a stronghold in their own lives.

    We are fighting a battle everyday against the forces of darkness that unless we are aware of often think it is against flesh and blood(Eph 6:11-12 NLT) Many are not aware of how easily they are influenced by the adversary.

    #1. The enemy is antagonistic to the plans and purposes of God. He will always seek to misconstrue and malign the character of God and to thwart the purposes of God.

    #2. The enemy’s intention is to defame and malign the character and intentions of God and others. He will whisper lies in hopes of denigrating God’s reputation, which in turn will diminish your confidence in God and cause you to mistrust His direction.

    #3. The enemy’s appearance is attractive, alluring and charming. Because of this, he can approach you in an appealing way to lure and entice your attention and admiration. This deceptive package will often be the furthest from repulsive and foul, making his handiwork difficult to detect.

    #4. The enemy seeks to weaken the believer’s confidence and influence by conveying condemnation and guilt. He points out and constantly reminds you of sin and mistakes in order to cripple the believer with discouragement and shame.

    #5. The enemy’s character contains no truth or light. When he speaks and acts, he will always seek to falsify and deceive. He will blatantly and unapologetically misconstrue the truths of your personal reality and circumstance. He will also seek to mislead you with inaccuracies regarding God, His Word, and His plans for you.

    We live in his world so the battle not only effects individuals it effect the world globally.

    #6. He has collective cultural and global methods designed to derail entire nations and people groups from God’s intended plan. He carefully crafts and proliferates philosophies, doctrines, and moral perspectives across entire demographics in order to steer whole societies away from God.

    #7. He is the chief leader of the tribe of dark forces who seek to carry out his purposes in the domain of darkness–a very real, yet invisible realm that effects everything seen and heard in the physical realm.

    This was taken from “The Armor of God” by Priscilla Shirer page 21

    It seems when we are aware of the ways the enemy can influence us we will not be so quick to fall into his traps. In the meantime we know that while here on earth we are in a constant battle but the war has been won. With Jesus’s help we can overcome and leave the battle in His mighty hands, He has given us all we need but we need to be on our toes and watchful not to get sucked in.

  91. joycemb says:

    Yes God is always free to do what He wants also teaching us throughout our lives what is good, just and merciful. Takes a lifetime to grow a “perfect” Christ follower and we already know from Job that God uses Satan for His purposes only.

  92. joycemb says:

    Staying on ones knees before almighty God is far better than being on our toes watching out for the enemy. You may see him out of the corner of your eyes/ears but it’s God who is our shield, buckler and strength. “For I know whom I have believed in and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I’ve committed to Him until that Day.”

    My first ministry assignment in college was teaching Bible to children on an Indian reservation. The battle started while in training at the college with things literally flying around to scare me. My teachers taught me to address God and His plans. I went alone for months and though there were plenty of dangers God protected me. His plans will not be thwarted, ever.

  93. poohpity says:

    I guess then there is no reason to put on the Armor of God and that part of Paul’s teaching is worthless, right? So is there no reason to protect our minds and hearts from the influences of darkness as we are taught to do. I guess not because the adversary will only go against those who are truly seeking after God otherwise he has already won and does not need to influence them any longer.

  94. poohpity says:

    There is no reason to be scared of the enemy’s attacks because He who is us is stronger than the one who is in the world(1 John 4:4 NIV) but we still need to be aware. Any army studies their enemy to know how to come against them.

  95. phpatato says:

    Pooh why am I not surprised that you miss the point on confessing sins and asking for forgiveness. sigh

    The bridge was indeed repaired between man and God by Christ’s death on the cross. Christ repairing that bridge was literally a matter of life eternal or death eternal. Heaven and Hell.

    Confessing one’s sinful state to become born again is what you are talking about. The bridge to Heaven is freely accessible once you accept Christ as Saviour and your name is recorded in The Lamb’s Book of Life. There is no plank missing to have eternal life thanks to Jesus Christ.

    What I am talking about is the confessing of sin that we do on a daily basis…and in particular wronging a family member – whether an immediate family member or a Godly family member. Admitting we are at fault in causing trouble of some kind and asking forgiveness from the person wronged builds bridges. You see, God is not blind nor is He deaf. Sin is sin and doing wrong to someone is sin. I don’t know about you but I’d rather confess to what I’ve done wrong and begin each new day with easy access across those bridges that I have in my life, OVER not confessing the sins I know I have committed each day, leaving a bridge broken in a relationship. It is especially troubling when I am not able to humbly go before the Lord because of sins I have stubbornly (or arrogantly) not confessed. Remember God cannot look at sin. Where do you put your daily sins that you don’t confess/admit to…in a secret pocket somewhere out of sight, out of mind? Let me assure you that He sees them and can’t look at you because of them.

    There comes a time when each of God’s children has to do some spring cleaning. Reaching into the far recesses of the heart to clean the cobwebs and accumulated dirt is not only beneficial but very healthy for their Christian walk. The Holy Spirit is the light that will shine into the corners if you ask Him.

    Don’t let the enemy trick you into thinking that just because you are saved, you don’t have to confess any sins done on a daily basis.

  96. poohpity says:

    Pat after that rant I bet you feel you need to do some spring cleaning in your own heart! Also I hear the need to understand who you are in Christ and what it is that God sees when he looks at you. He does not look at your sin but the atoning work of His Son. Confession is for our good so we will not hide from God, God never hid from us hence Jesus came and lived among all us sinners. He even ate, drank and slept among us showing His great love THEN while we were still sinners Christ died for us, dirt and all. :-)

    How would you know what a very healthy Christian walk looks like?

  97. poohpity says:

    Let me rephrase that last question. What does a very healthy Christian walk look like to you and are you doing it yourself?

  98. jeff1 says:

    I grew up in a very divided religious country and as a child it was not unusual to hear it said those Catholics attend mass on Sunday, confess their sins, and do as they like the rest of the week.

    I grew up believing that the Roman Catholic religion had it all wrong and my side of the divide knew better.

    I noticed, however, that my dad was never critical of the RC religion and concerned himself more with his own walk and trying to do what was Godly rather than judging others.

    I was much more naïve and it is only in my latter years did I understand what my dad was trying to teach me.

    My dad taught me that your relationship with others cannot be right until your own relationship with God’s was and that required discipline and I discovered my dad had that in abundance.

    The result of my dad’s discipline meant he made a life of God given decisions instead of wandering like a lost sheep.

    While God still cares for His lost sheep I would like to be more like my dad who understood what walking with God was about listening to God and doing His will rather than being critical of others in their walk.

    If there had been more like my dad in this country we would not be in the mess we are in today but sadly history repeats itself and men hand down their hatred from one generation to another until God says enough is enough and we find that His wrath can be just as powerful as His goodness and mercy.

  99. SFDBWV says:

    Immediately following the “Lord’s Prayer” is the Scripture verse Mart has shared with us (Matthew 6:14 KJV and Matthew 6:15 KJV).

    Looking at my Catholic study Bible I see these two verses referred to as “Principals of Holy Law”, explained as such; “Human action now will be met by a corresponding action of God at the final judgement.”

    As we have in the past commented about, Christians seem to have been relieved of the old Mosaic Law only to be given a new set of “laws”.

    Upon further study I discovered that the verse Mart gave, Luke 11:18 KJV does not speak directly about an unforgivable sin as does Matthew 12:31 KJV and Matthew 12:32 KJV.

    Once again in my Catholic study Bible the unforgiveable sin is described as “attributing to Satan what is the work of the Spirit of God.”

    We are for sure under grace, but still under a new “law”. One that Jesus insists upon and warns us of violating.

    I hope some are relieved to learn what the Catholic Church believes the unforgiveable sin to be.

    I think though some thought needs to be applied in how we relate with others ascribed to how we expect God to relate to us.

    43 degrees and rain this morning.


  100. jeff1 says:

    It took me a long time to realize that I had double standards as regards God’s forgiveness to me and my enemies.

    I was blinded by the hatred for them and I believe my dad could see it but rather than preach to me when I was not in the right mind to see it he set an example by his own conduct and today I can see that my dad was right I was judging others rather than being honest with myself about my own failings.

    It was quite a frightening revelation for me to find that I could deceive myself to the fact that I was playing God rather than trusting God.

    It has made me very aware of how deceitful my own heart is and how I can wander from God’s truth in pursuit of my own.

    My father had the discipline and it frightens me to find I can so easily wander when I do not focus on God’s righteousness but allow the temptations of this world to ensnare me.

    I do so miss my dad for he was so much wiser than I and yet he would never have said ‘I told you so’.

  101. narrowpathseeker says:

    Pat, please do not let that woman upset your day.
    The 10:42am comment from yesterday reminded me why I should stay away (as I so often intend to do). Sooner or later I wrongly think I can come back to check on the rest and ignore the one that seems to employ the strategies listed in that 10:42 post(especially #5). Then I will see someone defending themselves to her and I am enticed to see what torment she is delivering to them on that given day. Today I will be deleting all easy access to this site and hopefully I will not spend precious time trying to find it again. I understood and agree with what you were trying to convey Pat and I think it was a beautiful analogy.

    Steve, I being one that has much difficulty forgiving people that lash out intentionally as well as unremorsefully, I thank you for all the reminders in regard to unforgiveness. It is not that I forgot…I pray daily for deliverance from that and much more…but this morning in my study bible I was reminded that the time of Christ’s return is coming near and that I best start heeding what I believe to be warnings to stay away from situations that cause me to waste precious time being upset when I could probably be using that time to do good somewhere for someone. Having worked in group homes with the mentally challenged and encountering a few that were very high functioning but still diagnosed as challenged….. coupled with various forms of mental illness, seemingly cruel outbursts were easily forgiven as I knew they were challenged. So, rather than seeing one that exhibits the characteristics of the enemy as one of his servants, I will imagine such a one as mentally challenged and forgive and shake the dust from my feet.

    May God Bless and strengthen all of the brothers and sisters in Christ here to stand firm against the enemy. I will delete this site after posting and leave with Peace in my heart as to having done the right thing..for me. Thanks to all that have inspired, encouraged, Blessed, and/or prayed for me or one of my loved ones over time here. Stay Strong.

  102. SFDBWV says:

    You have to admit it is confusing to read that God will not forgive us in relationship to our not forgiving another.

    Given we are taught that all of our sins are forgiven us through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and we are not under judgement at the last judgement as such.

    It would also appear that the men who accused Jesus of being in league with the devil went to their graves unforgiven in contrast to Jesus asking forgiveness of “them” while on the cross.

    The clarifier here being putting ones trust in their eternal salvation in Jesus. And not letting such things chip away at our faith nor our peace.

    Just more proof that we need to look further beyond just what one Scripture verse may say in order to learn the full meaning of what is said.

    I also have to add this bit of observational humor to my thoughts. Why would anyone believe in Satan without also believing in God?

    Then by reason of logic why would anyone believe Satan, who is a created being from God, has any power at all that does not fall under the authority of his Creator God?

    Yes it is not only insulting, but shows a complete lack of any common sense for a person to violate the principals of the “unforgiveable sin”.


  103. poohpity says:

    Forgiveness is like; A neighbor bringing over a chocolate cake, 7 layers with chocolate icing between each layer for no reason other than the kindness of their heart. Then seeing that massive cake there realizing that it should be shared so more people can enjoy it. It is not a rule to share, it is because one received something so glorious that brought a heart of gratitude that the person wanted to bring to another as much joy as they felt when they received it.

  104. poohpity says:

    narrow, no matter where you go, you will be there. The same problems will be there too because it is not me who causes them but your own heart and what comes from within it.

  105. phpatato says:

    Only you would look at what I said as a rant Pooh. But because it is not the full moon yet, I will not subject the rest here with an off-schedule skirmish with you. Come back at the full moon when you are more yourself and the dear souls here are prepared for it.

    Dearest Pearl, just in case you might read this, I am not one bit upset. It’s like water on a duck’s back.

    I know how it has been building for you to walk away from this site. I am sorry that you have joined forces with the countless others who have done the same over the years and for the very same Reason. I just want you to know that you WILL BE MISSED!! If you ever happen to find yourself back in the neighbourhood, please drop in to see us. You might find the room renovated and aired out. Fingers crossed anyway.

  106. joycemb says:

    Unlocking the bible dot org has a good message called “Cultivating Forgiveness” it is a very in depth message about when, who, and why we forgive and the alternative. I learned much from it.

  107. jeff1 says:

    Joyce, does it come under blog because I cannot find it?

  108. poohpity says:

    Pat,It certainly is a rant not only a rant but assuming that you think you know anything about my relationship with the Lord in other words thinking you are equal to God in some way. Still not showing me when I have sinned against anyone nor telling me what I did wrong other than disagreeing. If there is such an offense to me sharing the things I learned then again DO NOT READ WHAT I WRITE then you will not be prone to be so ugly, offensive, hateful, accusatory which according to you is the way healthy Christians are supposed to act well I do not want to act like that so if that makes me not a healthy Christian then so be it.

    Back to forgiveness. Did the woman at the well confess her sins to Jesus and ask Him to forgive her? Did the criminal crucified next to Jesus confess his sins and ask for forgiveness? Did Peter confess his sins to Jesus and ask for forgiveness? Those are just a few that come to mind and the Gospels are filled with more in the same situation. No Jesus(God) forgave and showed He wanted a relationship with them.

    The first time disciples of Jesus were referred to as Christians it was actually a derogatory cult name that the people in Antioch referred to them as. They were a rag tag, messy group of outcasts who hid in the shadows and followed the Way(Jesus). I came to Jesus broken and a mess and I am still a work in process. I would apologize that I am not like those of you who do not like me but I would not trade who I am to act like you in anyway ever.

  109. joycemb says:

    Viv it’s in Daily Broadcast. When you get there scroll down to the bottom to “archive” then type on “forgiveness”. I listened to the 2nd one in the series also and it goes into even more detail- it’s so good and I like his Scottish accent also!

  110. joycemb says:

    Pooh I highly recommend the site I was just telling Viv about. Hint: those things that you were just talking about with Pat happened before the atonement. Listen to the broadcasts to find out why! It’s that great!

  111. poohpity says:

    Joyce only the first paragraph was to Pat alone. But I will listen to both parts of Cultivating Forgiveness. Thank you

  112. poohpity says:

    Uuummm did not hear what you were saying about atonement. but really enjoyed part 2 but found some areas of disagreement in part 1.

  113. mtman says:

    narrowpathseeker, I note you have left the site which I did as well approximately five years ago. I subsequently came back but I am questioning myself for doing so and I’m not sure I want to stay either. If you come back I hope you see this message.

    I left as some of the more stellar contributors rather rudely challenged my Christianity. They stepped right in and wanted me to document and verify I was a Christian. By elevating themselves to such a high position it appeared to me that they took it upon themselves to relieve God of his responsibility.

    I noted back then that there were some participating that were like a washing machine. When you open the lid the first thing you see is an agitator. They are still on this site and the disruption continues. Nothing has really changed.

    People are still sniping at each other through subterfuge and poorly veiled innuendo. Meanings are lost when hearts are hardened against each other. It is not just one person but several who create the dissension. There seem to be click’s forming that do nothing but support the antagonism from the side lines.

    Some may be able to ignore the sniping but I think they just don’t want to be drawn into the fray time and again. All this just makes the site something that falls far short of intellectual discussion of scriptural issues to bring greater understanding and growth toward our Lord.

    I have come back again but fail to see any improvement and in fact what I’m seeing is worse than it was those many years ago. I’m not sure what Mart is attempting to accomplish here but clearly it is not working, at least for me. I don’t think I will be far behind you in leaving this site so it can continue to feed on itself.

    With all the other pressing matters it is hardly worth our time to read comments that tend to upset us. If I want to be upset all I need to do is listen to the news for one night. I would hope coming back to this site it would challenge me and inspire my individual growth.

    That doesn’t seem to be the case regretfully and I’m on the line myself whether to pull the plug forever. I think I expected too much when I came back again. This site is more like a club than an inspiring place to grow.

  114. street says:

    All this just makes the site something that falls far short of intellectual discussion of scriptural issues to bring greater understanding and growth toward our Lord.

    the only thing missing is a cross and love. if you are looking for anything more you will miss it altogether.

    i have to admit not only are the different soils in play, the tares, but also varying degrees of maturity.

    never give up on the grace and mercy of God, the more you love the more it will hurt. just thinking. tough week in the wilderness. He must increase, i must decrease. where’s my cross? i dropped it again.

  115. poohpity says:

    mtman, if you want some “intellectual discussion of scriptural issues to bring greater understanding and growth toward our Lord.” what stops you from bringing that into the conversation rather than telling everyone just how much they are not living up to your standards for the type of discussion you would like to see? Be the change you want to see and not adding more fuel on the fire. Teach rather than scolding and accusing.

    There are a few that enjoy talking about principles, practices, understanding and enjoy learning. However there are also those who do not care about things of God. I have never seen a diverse group get along in every area except those who are open to learning about God together, that one thing that breaks down many barriers is growing together in the Lord.

  116. joycemb says:

    Atonement: He talked about how no one has forgiven more than God has which was an amazing point I thought. Before the cross Jesus could forgive individual sins though the people were not asking because they mostly weren’t expecting forgiveness (my personal take on it) but Jesus died for ALL on the cross. So it’s the atonement that changed things and is the point of reference for why and how we are to forgive one another. I like his step by step approach to forgiveness in part 2 also.

    I’m not surprised you disagree with some things on part 1 as modern evangelicalism has some differences with the more traditional Bible interp. No problem for me though.

  117. poohpity says:

    Everybody on this blog adds something and each person is important.

  118. poohpity says:

    yes I really enjoyed the analogy of jumping hurdles signifying how it is to forgive someone who has harmed us. That was just great.

  119. mtman says:

    Poohpity: Perhaps I call attention to the group because those who are bickering back and forth create such a distraction that meaningful dialog is virtually impossible.

    Thank you for your reply as it exemplifies exactly what is wrong with this site and helps me decide far more easily than I thought possible.

  120. joycemb says:

    Jumping hurdles BUT with the spirit of God in us we can pooh.

    Street I’ve been picturing you bent over picking up your cross. It’s a picture of humility. Forgiving is also a picture of humility. Blessed are the poor in spirit.

  121. poohpity says:

    mtman, Be the change you want to see but that can not be done when one tends to run away if people do not live up to their standards. There has been nothing that you have said that is any different the the usual finger pointing that goes on here by the click. Everyone else is always in the wrong, isn’t that blaming rather than being responsible for our own responses to people?

    Joyce, I think what he was saying that we can not jump a hurdle by standing next to it, they have to back up and run towards it then he listed the several steps in that process that helps in the approach. Yes a great emphasis was put on the help of God’s Spirit first and foremost in forgiveness.

  122. SFDBWV says:

    Take a look at the picture of the statue of the man and then just imagine hearing the words, “Oy Vey”.

    Kind of fits don’t you think.

    You are right mtman, Mart has a problem here and also right that the problem has been here for many years.

    As participants we are faced with either “taking it”, ignoring it or challenging it.

    Nothing works.

    The result people who could bring a good view and perspective into any subject just leave in disgust and desperation.

    Like everyone else I have been on the fence about going away as well and once did for a few months a few years ago. The only difference I just disappeared silently I didn’t leave after declaring why.

    It is almost funny that the subject is unforgivable, when we find it impossible to live with such irritants that we are faced with the truth that we don’t want to forgive or feel guilty because we just can’t and so just walk away.

    Once again I offer my own apologies to all when my participation becomes negative. It is very hard not to hit back when hit at. However I have learned that neither ignoring the situation or challenging it helps remedy it.

    So for now I will address the subject matter and occasionally wander off on a tangent related to it. I will try and encourage others in their efforts and applaud those who succeed as well. Always offering prayer to any who request it.

    It is hard to ignore a barking dog, when all the dog wants is paid attention to. But to reward it only encourages it.

    Looking at the picture again, I hear “Oh what to do, what to do”?

    43 degrees and wet.


  123. jeff1 says:

    Joyce, Sorry for being a pain but I still cannot access ‘forgiveness’ on the Daily Broadcast. When I scroll to the bottom of the page the only archive is media archive and when I click on it I print in forgiveness but ‘nothing found’ comes up.

    Thanks for this website as there are many other topics that I know would help me understand God better.

  124. SFDBWV says:

    I have often read Revelation 1 through to Revelation 4 with interest as to where I may fit in.

    Here within these pages and words are a report card for the Church and each one of us as believers. Here we read what it is that pleases and displeases Jesus about our lives, actions and behavior.

    For me special interest is paid to Revelation 2:6 KJV as it catches my eye that Jesus hates.

    I have really never heard a conclusion as to who these people are. I have read guesses, but nothing concrete.

    Even my Catholic study Bible only says, “These are *perhaps* the imposters” mentioned in Revelation 2:14 KJV and Revelation 2:15 KJV

    This leaves me wondering if it is possible to forgive someone that you have come to “hate” their behavior?

    While in Revelation I always love Revelation 4:1 as this is the moment of the Rapture and something I look forward to with great hope.


  125. joycemb says:

    Viv you are not a pain! Sorry you can’t access it. Electronics are really touchy sometimes as I well know. Yes this site has a lot of good teachings here though,

  126. joycemb says:

    The doctrine of the Nicolaitans appears to have been a form of antinomianism, which makes the fatal mistake that man can freely partake in sin because the Law of God is no longer binding. It held the truth on the gratuitous reckoning of righteousness; but supposed that a mere intellectual “belief” in this truth had a saving power.

    Nicolaitans of the 2nd century seem to have continued and extended the views of the 1st century adherents, holding to the freedom of the flesh and sin, and teaching that the deeds of the flesh had no effect upon the health of the soul and consequently no relation to salvation.

    Today, the doctrine is now largely taught that the gospel of Christ has made God’s law of no effect: that by “believing” we are released from the necessity of being doers of the Word. But this is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which Christ so unsparingly condemned in the book of Revelation. From Theopedia

  127. joycemb says:

    Steve there are obviously some we are commanded to stay away from, those false teachers who go contrary to the law of Christ. You are not one of them! I just read daily seedbed that talks about when we hear Jesus He leaves us with peacefulness. I feel that peacefulness from your posts and a few others here but the voices that offend I let go to God to deal with. Don’t need to feel guilty about seeking peace. Be at peace my friend in Christ.

  128. remarutho says:

    Good Morning BTA Friends —

    So appreciate, Mart, your consideration of the roots of unforgiveness, as you quote George MacDonald.

    You propose that Jesus:

    “…because of his love for us…is not willing to ignore
    (1) a condition of heart that is resisting the Spirit we need to know Jesus, or

    (2) the kind of unforgiving bitterness toward one another that shuts our hearts to the influence of God in us.”

    God graciously gives us something wonderful to love. When my heart embraces that freely given grace, no room remains for “resisting the Spirit” or “unforgiving bitterness toward one another.”

    When I encounter that hardness in myself —

    What is the remedy?

    “Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.”

    The Apostle Paul offered this prescription 2,000 years ago.

    Praying over here to be someone who “lets go” and receives God’s grace.

    Blessings all day,

    7C/44F with clouds. Rain forecast.

  129. joycemb says:

    Viv I checked the site again. The tab is “view more in the archive”, its yellow. You are looking under “teaching” just below the archive tab.

  130. mtman says:

    I too read seedbed this morning. I have found as I have gotten older that I need to get up at night to use the bathroom. Even with Rx it is necessary. When I go back to bed and my mind is mostly idle is when I actually hear Jesus talking to me. It is always so wonderful and so peaceful that I fall back to sleep easily with what He has said lingering in my mind. During the day my mind seems so occupied that there is little room to be talked to by our Lord. I’m sure he is talking to me but I don’t hear him through the clutter.

    At the end of our property there is a bench swing that I often go to to have quiet time with the Lord but I have found that I do most of the talking and He does most of the listening. There is a spring nearby that runs all year long and it is very quiet at the swing. The birds sing and the spring gurgles and makes pleasant noise but I do the talking and very little listening. Try as I may I can’t shut up long enough to listen to Him. The swing is my prayer closet and even with the deep snow I sometimes strap on snowshoes and go to my swing. He is always there waiting for my babbling on and patiently listens. I know he is listening as I can sense his presence.

    Jesus does speak to me but I have to listen carefully to hear him. Today’s seedbed was a good one that spoke to me too.

  131. mtman says:

    Steve: You are right that nothing works. Since the topic is on forgiveness it seems appropriate to mention its application on this site. I forgive those who jab and agitate but it seems I then spend much of my time engaged in forgiveness and the agitation continues. I actually feel sorry for the agitator as they are missing much by doing so. I don’t hold it against them but they are keeping others from the good of the site and seem to like being the lone attack dog by keeping others off balance.

    Efforts to engage in a friendly way, rebuke or ignore don’t seem to work at all. Others who are offended or lectured to also then strike back and keep the negative strategy going. Stating that nothing works is spot on. At least nothing seems to have worked to date.

    It appears that there are so many offended that they do tend to cluster up against the offender making it even harder to ignore. All this makes continually turning the cheek far more real. If contributors to this blog are not being lectured, having comments amplified or being insulted it is unusual.

    Discussing God’s lessons should be a challenging matter that enriches all who participate but instead it is constantly disruptive and frustrating. You are right – nothing works. And the person who offends so often instead of changing their ways tends to blame it on everyone else. One against the world. Indeed it is a sad situation that has gone on for a very long time. You would think that being captain of the world would wear out in time but it doesn’t seem to do anything but grow stronger with any opposition.

    For the time being I think I will just limit my time on the site.

  132. poohpity says:

    Viv, at the top of the page on that site there is a search box type in “Cultivating Forgiveness” when you are on the topics page. I think that may help.

  133. poohpity says:

    In 1849 students of theology were told to shift the topic of conversations from persons to things. These were the first two categories mentioned by Buckle:

    The great temptation both to ministers and people, is to talk about persons. “Why,” said Dr. Rush to some one, “are you always talking about persons? Why do you not talk about things?” The answer is plain. It is so much easier to talk about persons than things. It is so much more gratifying to our evil natures to talk about persons, especially their faults. Any one can talk about persons.

    In 1888 a sermon posited three conversational categories: “persons”, “things”, and “events”. Once again a hierarchy of intellect was alluded to because the latter two categories demanded “intelligence and reflection and information”:

    It is easier, no doubt, to talk about persons, because so many disagreeable remarks spontaneously occur to one. It is more difficult to talk about things and events, because this requires a certain amount of intelligence and reflection and information. If we are to talk of things, we must know something about them. And it is our duty to see that we do.

  134. poohpity says:

    Maru, you have a great mind. street, you too. Without exception so do you Mart, IMHO.

  135. SFDBWV says:

    I do so appreciate your comments mtman. I agree again in that you and I are kindred souls and have a lot in common.

    Joyce I also thank you for your kind words and your understanding of the Nicolaitans, which I usually call “the Nickeloadians”.

    I too have a swing, but on my porch overlooking the town. I do not get much time anymore to set alone there, but try to when I can. I think that I am going to get to set there and commune with God. I have a good view also of the eastern sky and love to watch the clouds form and roll along on the horizon.

    However it doesn’t take much time for my attention to focus in on town and all of the problems that await a solution.

    Also it may only be a few minutes before Matthew will be calling out for me for something he needs or wants to ask or clarify.

    I do pray all over the place in my home, as it becomes available for me to and sometimes when just urged to from the Holy Spirit.

    A decade plus ago while standing in my garage I was giving praise to God for all He had done for us when I had an epiphany, a vision of Matthew standing next to the bench and heard a voice say don’t worry Matt will finish it. Meaning, I thought to be some work I was doing at the time on the bench.

    Since then it has become my favorite place to be alone for the few minutes I can in the morning after Matt eats breakfast and I am outside feeding the critters. Indeed while outside in the dark I also pray and give praise to God as I “commune” also with nature.

    And yes mtman I am also up several times a night for the same reason you are and always talk to God while up and awake.

    I also want to say Maru that I think your view of our subject is as many say here “spot on” and very enlightening, thank you.

    I will close for the day by saying that I hope we don’t give up on each other, but rather rise up together in Spirit to resist the dark one and chase him away from where we stand united here in Christ.


  136. poohpity says:

    I forgot saled too.

  137. joycemb says:

    Steve my prayers this morning were that God would restrain the enemy for a time. False guilt is a favorite tactic used to weaken our resolve and standing with Christ. Unfortunately the enemy knows not what guilt feels like period, but knows how sensitive the elect are as their senses have been awakened by Jesus dying on a cross. Praise God for His sensitivity to mankind in not destroying us all!

  138. SFDBWV says:

    Ancestor.com has three TV shows that are just excellent. The first is “Who Do You Think You Are” whereby they take celebrities on a journey of discovering who their ancestors were.

    The second is “Long Lost Family” whereby they track down adopted children now adults and also sometimes their parents. This show is all about healing family relationships.

    The third is brand new and is called “Life, Live” this one is live and deals with healing broken lives both physically through surgeries or some medical accomplishment and emotionally through people dealing face to face with problems with each other.

    Last nights was right on our subject as a woman sought to face the drunk driver who killed her baby daughter and sister some 20 years ago.

    The man was sentenced to 20 years for manslaughter, but received an early release. This woman who lost her daughter and sister had a father that encouraged her to forgive this man so that she could have peace and encouraged her to do so until his death a year or so ago.

    This woman finally said it was time, she was able to now find this man and bring him release and healing from her forgiveness.

    Driven, she was under an unction to find and help heal this man and did.

    I recommend the shows they are on “The Learning Channel”.

    Spoiler alert, there are no dry eyes while watching these.

    44 degrees after a long day of rain and fog last night.


  139. foreverblessed says:

    What a good story, Steve. Forgiveness is so important!
    I was thinking to say two things, let’s see how far I get.

    First, about asking forgiveness.
    Pat talked about it. She we offend one another it is important to ask for forgiveness, and of course, forgive.
    I am part of the music group of our church, we lately had a Bible study on reconciliation.
    ( I am now in the train, going to the south of the Netherlands, my son is leaving his town where he studied, 8 years ago I went with him to look for a room to live. And we together, with Lord, found one. Now I want to make this journey to thank God for having helped us so far. I see this as an offering to Him. Instead of offering in the temple, so to speak, I will take him out for lunch. And praise God, I believe that the offerings in the temple were date by the people, it was like a feast)

    On that Bible study, God would rather that we stop and first be reconciled to our brother than that we would sing His praises. There were several scriptures with it.
    The someone started to complain:
    Who did we think God was, we were already forgiven!
    We were clean and white, washed in his blood!

    So the discussion went this way: say, you had a fight with your partner in the car driving to Church, what does God want you to do before you start singing in front of the church?

  140. foreverblessed says:

    Many of us said: first be reconciled to your partner and then start singing. If you can’t do it personally, ask another person to pray with you, to ask God forgiveness, praying for the covering of the blood of Jesus to protect us.

    But there was a guy who refused to believe that this is what God wanted, as we were already forgiven.
    Now, that was odd to me.
    Jesus’ command is this: love one another anyway.
    Pray that the Holy Spirit will teach that man. As he did not accept our explanation

  141. joycemb says:

    I watched those tv shows also- tears here also! I was impressed how her father who was in the car behind the accident said he forgave the drunk driver at the scene, and taught her daughter also to forgive. That it was because of her parents letters to the parole board he was paroled early and not given a life sentence. Forgiveness is powerful stuff! You could see he was still struggling to forgive himself yet God is using him to speak to groups with the support of his church. It was so beautiful.

  142. joycemb says:

    If anyone is interested you can find the shows on line at TLC.com. The show about healing in a dysfunctional family reunited after 60 years was eyeopening to see the differences in what the children had been told about the separation and how that made them feel about themselves then and now after hearing the truth. Truth can be so freeing and the beginning of healing. I loved the shows.

  143. joycemb says:

    Forever have a great day with your train ride and time with your son, sounds grand!

  144. poohpity says:

    “because of his love for us, he is not willing to ignore (1) a condition of heart that is resisting the Spirit we need to know Jesus, or (2) the kind of unforgiving bitterness toward one another that shuts our hearts to the influence of God in us.”

    Does one really believe and understand the “Good News”? I wonder if we really do then what would cause so many questions about forgiveness? If one did why put qualifications and conditions on it?

  145. jeff1 says:

    Joyce and Pooh, I have found the topic on ‘Cultivating Forgiveness’ and it has really helped me understand better what God expects of me.

    I found the way the Pastor explained that by showing mercy and looking at God’s goodness I would eventually get to forgiveness.

    Sometimes I want to give up because I feel I will never get to forgiving but this has given me encouragement to continue looking at God’s goodness and forgiveness will follow.

    I think I am going to benefit from listening to other topics on this site so thank you Joyce for referring.

  146. joycemb says:

    Viv I too have found God to be so patient yet always encouraging me to keep on being all that He wants me to be. Whatever He asks of us He provides the way and resources we need. God bless you on your journey through forgiveness. It’s a process so don’t get down on yourself, your foundation in Christ is all you need to get started.

  147. poohpity says:

    Wow Viv!! Praise God! It just takes that first step. Forgiveness is a big hurdle that through the grace of God makes it all possible. That is the best thing I have heard all year.

  148. jeff1 says:

    Thank you, Joyce, I do not want to go on being angry with those I do not understand because I know God knows best and in time will make all things new and I want to enjoy His Grace and also hope that those who to not know it will in time get to understand that God wants what is best for them too.

    I think there is much misunderstanding about God and that can make people hide from Him rather than look to Him for comfort and I am thankful for people who understand God in ways I do not which encourages me to seek Him and know that He loves me.

    Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experiences which has been inspirational to me.

  149. foreverblessed says:

    What a good news Jeff. Your comment made my heart glad. (That sounds so christian, but I felt the joy and the relief when I read it). God bless you jeff, I pray for you too! May His mercies fill your heart!

  150. foreverblessed says:

    Off topic:
    Today is Kingsday in our country, just a big festival, every town city and village has a festivity.

    Many youngsters from countries around us come to the Neteherlands to join us.

    The king and his family visits a city, at 11 he arrived in Tilburg. And the city shows what it has. (it is on the national tv now, adn I am watching it. They arrived by train, and I saw on the train station clock that there was a delay of 5 minutes, no not real time, but a 5 minutes later)

    Now that I am older I am beginning to appreciate our royal family. Being a republic can be OK, but strange people can get into power I have noticed over the years. These royal people have been trained from their youth for the job. And this family that we have in our country is quite responsible. We used to have queens for over a hundred years. Beatrix, the mother of our king Willem Alexander was a very good and sensible woman, but Willem is doing a good job too, with his wife beside him. It was so good to see that a man can imprive being a man by a good wife to stand next to him. A loving relation and a sparring partner. They have three daughters, the oldest is 12.
    Now they are showing 50 piano’s, playing a piec of music for our king, as he turns 50 today.

    Just some side information.

  151. foreverblessed says:

    Joyce, I wanted to thank you for your blessing yesterday! I felt it God was sending it from you to me!
    It was a lovely day, and I used it to thank God, for all His presence in the time our son did his studies there.
    Just being thankful! And saying that to God, the whole day, talking to Him in, how do you call that small prayers, “schietgebed” we call it in Dutch. a shooting prayer. And that a whole day and night, it makes your heart glad too! Just saying thank You God, for all Your concern and love.
    I read Psalm 111:1-10 and devoted it to the past years
    (the first of the hallel (priase) psalms 11-118 that the Jews read on passover night)

  152. foreverblessed says:

    And then I wanted to react to what Joyce wrote about the Nicolaitians. I didn’t know what was the thing about them. But it sounds allright, just saying, it doesn’t mind if we sin, we are forgiven anyway. If we offend somebody we do not have to say sorry. We are forgiven anyway.
    It is of course right, that if we are offended, and the person that offended us, does not say sorry, we have to deal with it ourselves, and we forgive anyway, so God help us. That is living in grace, we do not have that forgiveness, but we ask God to give us His grace to do so.

    Living in the Cross, we give Him our bitterness, and Hhe gives us His love, that fills our heart. Our heart is changed, by the Power of His Spirit, that He gives out to us, since Jesus said on the Cross “it is finished”, and He gave the Spirit. The Spirit that in Him was being beaten, scorged, suffering, so that Spirit could be given out to us, to make us whole again. Isaiah 53:4-5

  153. foreverblessed says:

    And this is extra, yesterday I wanted to write that in the train, but I did not get the time. Steve wrote about the epiphany that he had, concerning Matt:
    “Matt will finish it”
    I have noticed throught the years, that when God comes with His comfort, a supernatural invention in our lives, concerning a particular person, that then it means trouble will be ahead. Great trouble. But that God has comforted us in advance, and that we hold on to the promise that He gave us.
    Psalm 111:4-5
    4 He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the Lord is gracious and full of compassion.

    5 He hath given meat unto them that fear him: he will ever be mindful of his covenant.

    His covenant, in this case the personal word that He had given to Steve. It will be allright with Matt!

  154. jeff1 says:

    Thinking Forever, you have a great way with words while I know what I want to say but not sure how to put it into words.

    I was very poor at English and comprehension in particular and it has made me unsure of how I express myself.

    Probably why I prefer to quote poems and songs rather than use my own words.

    Your comments are always uplifting Forever and that is a gift from God and thank you for sharing them and giving hope and inspiration.

  155. street says:

    5 He hath given meat unto them that fear him: he will ever be mindful of his covenant.

    He leads me in path of mercy grace and peace. let me remember to share as generously as he has with me.

    beware of a gospel that can not injure and one that can not heal, for it will not be able to save.

  156. foreverblessed says:

    Jeff, thanks for your encouragement!
    i want to say to you, that you are allright with words, you can express yourselves very well, I feel your heart when you write, you touch me very much. Thanks for being so humble.
    And may God strengthen you, and make you as faithfull a follower of Christ as was your father, and I pray that you may be even more a humble follower of Christ!

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