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A Final Solution

In 1979 George Steiner wrote a controversial work of fiction that ignited an international firestorm.

In The Portage to San Cristobal of A.H., Steiner  created a scenario in which an aged Adolf Hitler was found and captured from his hiding place in the Amazon jungle— and then given the last word in a court of law.

Hitler is allowed to say with searing boldness that he got his idea of a master race from the Jewish ambition of a “chosen people.” Then he proceeds to accuse “the chosen” of haunting the world with an invisibly demanding God of gods— “with a terrible nearness. Spying on our every misdeed, searching out the heart of our heart for motive. A God of vengeance unto the thirtieth generation… A God of contracts and petty bargains, of indentures and bribes” (Job).

Steiner’s darkly eloquent A.H. goes on to portray the New Testament Jesus as a sequel to this Monster of monsters— “An intolerable rabbi who demands of a follower that he “leave mother and father behind, that he offer the other cheek when slapped, that he render good for evil, that he love his neighbor as himself, no, far better, for self-love is an evil thing to be overcome… Note the cunning of it. Demand of human beings more than they can give, demand that they give up their stained, selfish humanity in the name of a higher ideal, and you will make of them cripples, hypocrites, mendicants for salvation… men and women creatures of flesh he abandoned to the blackmail of hell, eternal punishment. What were our camps compared to that? Ask of man more than he is, hold before his tired eyes an image of altruism, of compassion, of self-denial which only the saint or the madman and touch, and you will stretch him on the rack. Till his soul bursts. What can be crueler than the Jew’s addiction to the ideal.

In these imagined last words of A.H., the implications sound stunningly close to the truth, and portray a God— who creates without love, judges without mercy, and asks of his Creation what he himself is unwilling to give. It shows what happens when the truth is imagined— in part, without due notice of a surprise climax of plot that becomes The Final Solution to our sin-filled misperceptions of our God.

Steiner’s fictional storyline is too disturbing to be easily dismissed.

That may be one reason I keep coming back to Paul’s answer for people who had become known for more than they thought they knew.

Seeing an intoxication with partial truths that enabled his readers to misunderstand and ignore the life-changing implications of Jesus’s crucifixion, Paul offers a descriptive hint of something infinitely better than the pursuit of a temporary faith and hope in partial truths (1Cor 12:29-13:13).

Seeing beyond this present life, and implying that what a merciful God asks of us— is a taste of the love he has for us— Paul anticipates a day of a full understanding. Working from a Final Solution revealed in a Crucified Savior, Paul honors such love as being greater than either faith or hope saying, “Now I know in part; then I shall know (and love) fully, even as I am fully (and lovingly) known.” (1Cor 13:12-13).

 


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237 Responses to “A Final Solution”

  1. remarutho says:

    Good Morning Mart & Friends —

    There is in our time, as much as in 1st century Corinth, “an intoxication with partial truths that enabled his (Paul’s) readers to misunderstand and ignore the life-changing implications of Jesus’s crucifixion…” as you say, Mart.

    A.H. can name some of the attributes of God and of His Son, Jesus. Then, he interprets love as cunning, missing entirely the mercy of God — and therefore describing his own twisted human soul rather than describing the Creator of the universe.

    It is necessary and good to return to Paul’s description of the excellence of love from time to time (1 Cor 12:29-13:13).

    In this way, you and I can resist the temptation to think of God as one of us — or worse, as a paranoid tyrant such as A.H.

    Jesus is “the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities –”

    Blessings,
    Maru

    12C/56F here under the full moon. Sunshine is forecast.

  2. SFDBWV says:

    When I looked in this morning earlier I was somewhat relieved that a new subject wasn’t up yet as I was tired and after getting all of my morning chores done and Matt settled in I rested.

    I find that even, or especially, mental exercise is quite exhausting and like the physical I just need to rest from it.

    Ironically Hitler’s philosophical action of burning books he felt influenced his nation’s people would have also been banned and burnt by the early church.

    I almost feel as though my commentary to this subject has already been expressed in part in all of the subject matter we have dissected.

    The success of fiction is found in its being salted with familiar or half fact. Just like the lie in the Garden of Eden just enough truth to make it acceptable to a receptive heart.

    The twist on truth was how Steiner seen the story of Scripture, or maybe said better how those who read Steiner’s book wanted to see the story.

    Once again showing that whatever it is you look for, is what you will find.

    Look for good in people, you will find good in people, look for evil and evil is there to be found.

    I am about to become very busy for a while, but look forward to seeing more commentary, I just wish we had more people commenting.

    It reached a low this morning of 48 and is already 68. Looks like a good day to cut grass after all the rain we have had.

    Steve

  3. poohpity says:

    It seems when any group or individual considers themselves more than what they really are, the feeling of superiority steps in and with that feeling then comes the misconceived notion that others are less than. When one thinks others are less than in someway or inferior, we lose the thought of their humanity which seemed to be how Hitler looked at Jews. He did everything he could to take from them their very worth as human beings to mask his own feelings of inferiority. The old putting others down to feel better about yourself trick.

  4. poohpity says:

    Jesus offered level ground at the foot of the Cross which seemed to be His final solution. Where every human being which God knows their very heart, is given the gift of forgiveness, mercy and grace. If one is not aware of their own heart condition tends to put forth this false sense of entitlement, that they deserve to make others feel less than. We only see now in the mirror a distorted reflection of what is really there and when we walk away we forget until we see in others what we left in that mirror. Considering that God knows us fully and still did what He did rather than feeling superior, we feel humbled and brought to our knees in gratitude.

  5. joycemb says:

    Thinking of you Bubbles and praying you will feel Gods great love holding you today, with blessings both physical and spiritual.

  6. joycemb says:

    Mart I love your post this morning. Looking beyond our pre conceived partial notions of how we should speak act or think is key I wholeheartedly think. Paul was a brilliant man used mightily by God. A very patient man also, as are you. Blessings to you Mart today also, along with all readers/writers here. Shalom

  7. poohpity says:

    Mart, I was thinking about that last paragraph and when I meet the Lord face to face and the things I have done under the guise of doing good or being good or thinking of myself as spiritual or godly the covers get pulled back and our true nature is revealed. What was truly in my heart or my motivations for doing what I do, I wonder at that point the speechlessness that may overcome or overwhelm me. Like Job said, “I am unworthy–how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth.”

  8. poohpity says:

    Absolutely grateful for the “Final Solution”

  9. joycemb says:

    Job was able repent of his “dust and ashes” Jewish mindset when he recognized how merciful God is to all. Isn’t that something? Victor Frankel (survivor of Auschwitz) was also able to move past his grief and mentor millions for the rest of his life.

    Some say the worlds problem is that in our search for significance we get stuck as Job did. Significance in the Kingdom looks a whole lot different than what the world offers.

    Take heed of the full moon. It affects us yet we have the Creator of the moon watching over us, and it.

  10. jeff1 says:

    The King of love my shepherd is,
    Whose goodness faileth never.
    I nothing lack if I am His,
    And He is mine forever.

    Where streams of living water flow,
    My randomed soul He leadeth;
    And where the verdant pastures grow,
    With food celestial feedeth.

    Perverse and foolish, oft I strayed,
    But yet in love He sought me;
    And on His shoulder gently laid,
    And home, rejoicing, brought me.

    In death’s dark vale I fear no ill,
    With thee, dear Lord, beside me;
    Thy rod and staff my comfort still,
    Thy cross before to guide me.

    Thou spreadst a table in my sight;
    Thy unction grace bestoweth;
    And oh, what transport of delight
    From Thy pure chalice floweth!

    And so through all the length of days,
    Thy goodness faileth never;
    Good Shepherd, may I sing Thy praise
    Within Thy house forever.

  11. joycemb says:

    WISDOM FROM OSWALD CHAMBERS

    It is in the middle that human choices are made; the beginning and the end remain with God. The decrees of God are birth and death, and in between those limits man makes his own distress or joy. Shade of His Hand, 1223 L

  12. marma says:

    Reminded me of CSLewis The Horse and His Boy, where, for the boy, the Lion, Aslan, was his savior time and again, but Rabadash, to whom Aslan was extending mercy, saw Aslan as a demon in the form of a lion, and would not accept the mercy offered either by Aslan or his followers.

    My brother has tended, when he remarks on God at all, to describe him as delighting in the misery of us humans. What I hope is that he will see who Christ is through me; it causes me to pause and ponder on how I follow Christ: do I portray Him accurately in my walk? Does my life demonstrate the love, mercy, and grace of God? Something for me to think about.

  13. foreverblessed says:

    Just hopping in to say hello. I am doing fine, was only not able to comment, but have read a lot.
    Thanks Regina for thinking about me, that touched my heart,
    Thank you Marma, nice to hear from you.

    And the song Jeff gave, that was soooo nice:
    The King of Love my Shepherd is…

    as soon as I read the first line, I was already singing it, such beautifull song, the music that goes with it, is also soothing the heart, as are the words.

    About God being merciful, He is, this week Psalm 145 is being read in the Protestant churches of the Netherlands,
    Psalm 145:9
    The Lord is good to all
    He has compassion on all He has made

    Jesus healed those who were demon possessed, the demons left, and the person was free. What do you think these people have done, while demon possessed? Awful things,horrible things, especially the man in the wilderness, where the demons left him and went into a herd of pigs.
    I believe that Hitler was demon possessed. He did not know what he was doing anymore at the end of his life.
    And so were many of his men.
    God is merciful, and He know what He is doing
    He is the one that sent His Son, the One who made everything, and everybody, That One, is the One, who died for us all.

    God worked with Saul, till He saw God face to face, and repented, the apostle Paul wrote in the bible:
    If He could save me, He can save anybody!

    That is what I believe!

    God bless you all!

  14. SFDBWV says:

    Personally I thank you marma for your insight into the subject before us. It is refreshing to see more people involved.

    To the community at large as well;

    I have read over the quote from Steiner’s book several times and as Mart said it is disturbing to read.

    The attack is not only upon Jews but on the entire Judean-Christian belief leaving one as either an atheist, humanist or one of many a confused and lost soul searching for the unanswerable questions of life.

    I never heard of the book as in 1979 I was engulfed in the care for my family and where my energies laid. Working 6 days or more a week underground in the coal mines and dealing with the politics of keeping a job for me and 300 other men as the coal company was planning to start a new mine close ours hire new people and lay off a workforce that had 30 or more years on the job.

    I had little time for abstract reading and have to say I am glad I never read this one.

    Such ideas have a way of worming their way into your psyche.

    I suppose as I work out what to think about our new subject, it comes to me when, where, how and why does confidence come in believing the Bible and especially accepting the story of Jesus to be “true” in every respect.

    Then to the next thought, has such “disturbing” thinking dented my armor or caused a glimmer of doubt to surface?

    Or has it exposed an old weapon in the arsenal of Satan in his relentless war against God? The weapon of the intellectual processing of our faith?

    I am reminded of Philippians 4:7 KJV as the peace of God which passes all understanding keeps my heart and mind through Christ Jesus and Proverbs 3:5 whereas I won’t trust my own understanding, but continue to acknowledge God in everything so as to keep my mind clear.

    I am not sure where I can go with this subject, it will require more thought and prayer.

    61 degrees and wet after overnight rain.

    Steve

  15. saled says:

    I was also unfamiliar with this book. I looked it up on Wikipedia and would like to quote from there: ” A central theme is the nature of language and revolves around Steiner’s lifelong work on the subject and his fascination in the power and terror of human speech.” The whole subject of language in the Bible is huge. From the tower of Babel to these verses of Paul’s in Corinthians, it is fascinating. Wikipedia also quotes from some of the reviews at the time and one from the New York Post calls the end scene ‘obscene’ and mentions how unjust that Hitler had the last word.

    Thanks for answering Hitler, Mart. Thanks for sharing the hope that we have in love, which, as Paul says, is more important than faith and hope. A long time ago, when in a stressful situation and near the end of my rope, the quiet voice of God inside said to me, “choose love.” Don’t choose fear, don’t run away, choose love. No matter what the situation, we can choose love. And that gives us power.

  16. joycemb says:

    “Do you believe in God? No! I know God.” I just read this last night and have been thinking about it. I think it’s the difference between a hope-so faith and an abiding trust. When I encounter scary circumstances it’s not being hopeful that gets me through but knowing Jesus as if He Were with me in the flesh that does. Him being omni-present overrules whatever nastiness comes at me. And yes Saled it’s love always and at all times that matters, no matter the personal cost or how I feel at the time.

  17. joycemb says:

    Actually Christ dwelling in me gives Him my flesh to move around in. Think of that, we have the Spirit of Christ in us. We can and must choose love over everything else.

  18. joycemb says:

    Dear Pooh,
    I ask your forgiveness for judging you the past 4-5 years. I was wrong, so so wrong, and I am very sorry for any pain I have caused you.

    Because He lives!
    Joyce

  19. poohpity says:

    Thank you Joyce. I forgive you. :-)

    The following was written by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, “Ethics” who was killed in a Nazi camp.

    “In the body of Jesus Christ, God is united with humankind, all humanity is accepted by God, and the world is reconciled to God. In the body of Jesus Christ God took on the sin of all the world, no matter how lost, no matter how godless, that has not been accepted by God in Jesus Christ and reconciled to God.”

    “God loves human beings. God loves the world. Not an ideal human, but human beings AS THEY ARE, not an ideal world, but the REAL WORLD. What we find repulsive in their opposition to God, what we shrink back from with pain and hostility, namely, real human beings, the real world, this is for God the ground of unfathomable love. God establishes a most intimate unity with this. God becomes human, a real human being. While we exert ourselves to grow beyond our humanity, to leave the human behind us, GOD BECOMES HUMAN, and we must recognize that God wills that we be human, real human beings. While we distinguish between pious and godless, good and evil, noble and base, God loves REAL PEOPLE without distinction. God has no patience with our dividing the world and humanity according to our standards and imposing ourselves as judges over them. God leads us into absurdity by becoming a real human being and a companion of sinners, thereby forcing us to become the judges of God. God stands beside the real human being and the real world against ALL THEIR ACCUSERS. So God becomes accused along with human beings and the world, and thus the judges become the accused.”

  20. joycemb says:

    So true. Its been a lot of years since I read that book. He’s spot on.

    What got to me today was Max Lucado telling and talking about the story of the woman caught in adultery, and his explanation of the story like I’ve never heard before. I suddenly saw myself in the woman and in her accusers. Powerful for me and I wept. And found I could finally forgive myself for the shame I carried over my divorce, ( my pastor made sure to let me know God was not happy with me from the pulpit because I didn’t win over my unsaved husband as he believed I should have at the time). If Jesus could not find one person to admit they were perfect then who am I to not accept His grace!!! And to extend the same grace to all?!!! Its my personal shame that has kept me from church, causing depression, panic attacks and anger even. God answered my prayer the other day when I asked Him how I could go to a church when I felt so inferior to everyone else. Max is a wonderfully gifted story teller. Pooh your sometimes annoyingly incessant preaching over the years about grace and judgement make more sense to me now as it has hit me personally:-) Thank you.

  21. street says:

    A Final Solution……a cross
    first thoughts and then some more thoughts. first thought tonight was stunning! i saw this the other day and i knew i was going to have to spend some time wadding through this one, and even venturing out into deep water. tonight i think about our approach to God. a God of Truth, Righteousness, and Holiness. lets see? can you negotiate any of theses things? or aspire to be truth righteous holy? yes you can aspire to theses things, but as we know from the law we are epic failures, even with man made rules. can we be more righteous just or holy than God? job tangled with this and repented in sack cloth and ashes. yet in Christ we are seated with Christ at the right Hand of God. now this is close to God, yet i wonder about the Third part of the Trinity living “in” me?!?! here now! God a monster? pot calling the kettle black? God is vindicated in the death of man and will be vindicated in the Saints at the Resurrection and in the judgment of the damned. a.h. can your right hand save you? the Father Son and Holy Spirit are One. no greater darkness than half truth, nor greater Light than the Truth. God gave us Himself. may He be our Greatest Treasure.

  22. SFDBWV says:

    First off I want to thank Saled and street for their depth of looking at the subject, good job. Forgive me if I missed anyone else, not a slight, just an oversight.

    I too have heard the “voice” of God and sometimes need reminded that I did.

    It is all very personal and shows a one on one relationship with the Creator of all things.

    Discernment is one of the “gifts” that comes with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. He is able to separate fact from fiction, truth from lie.

    Discernment also means making a judgement call and this morning I am reminded of 1Corinthians 6:2 KJV as well as 1Corinthians 6:3 KJV

    We are taught, empowered and authorized to judge, but judge rightly. Look at 1Corinthians 6:9, 10 KJV

    There is a responsibility for us as a Church to clean up matters within the Church, just as there is a necessity for us to recognize sin in the world. If we weaken ourselves to the point of not being able to recognize right from wrong we are in grave danger to ourselves and to the Church.

    This work of fiction from Steiner is one of those canker worms that find some resonance where it can unless protected by the full armor of God which enables us to be able to discern/judge.

    The situation then changes to whether we are able to or even if we should undertake the task of unraveling Steiner’s view of Judean-Christian belief.

    Clearly to the Christian, God took on the punishment of mankind at the cross and so defies Steiner’s view of a tyrant God to a sacrificial God willing to do whatever necessary to save mankind.

    A sacrifice we do not fully understand as yet.

    We have to be able to see Steiner’s view for what it is. The Holy Spirit in us is what enables us to do so, not our intellect, but Christ Himself. That comforting “voice” we recognize as the voice of God in our hearts leading us always to the truth.

    64 degrees and cloudy after a night of rain.

    Steve

  23. joycemb says:

    The rest of the story Steve is so important when thinking about judging, note verse 11 please.

    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous2 will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: xneither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,3 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And ysuch were some of you. But zyou were washed, ayou were sanctified, byou were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

  24. joycemb says:

    It’s not a prescriptive but a descriptive thought of Pauls as he’s trying to explain the grace of God to a rag tag bunch of believers- the church has not changed though, we are all sinners; but for the stunning grace of God in Christ Jeus!

  25. SFDBWV says:

    That is your opinion Joyce and how you want to see it, I see it differently. If I am to be an adult Christian then I have to face things as an adult.

    How then do you interpret 1Corinthians 6:3 KJV ?

    Steve

  26. poohpity says:

    Steve, I am surprised that you find contempt in what Steiner wrote since you have said things like God uses us a pawns in the game of life or it is not God who gives us peace but our own philosophies and reasoning, that hell is life on this earth, considering some people as undeserving of redemption, being raised in a Christian home makes one a Christian thus superior to others who aren’t, etc..

    In 1 Cor 6 Paul was describing conflict in the church and people filing law suits and going to court against each other rather than taking those things before the church to decide, leaving the courts out of it. Paul also reminded them to keep in mind what they were all like those who were filing the suits before the redemption of Jesus Christ. So Joyce I agree it is always good to read verses within the context that they were written to get a better understanding of the meaning.

  27. poohpity says:

    That is similar to reading the first few paragraphs of Mart’s topic without reading that last few. Usually writers use the first few to build the story and the final are the conclusions.

  28. joycemb says:

    Yes we have a certain responsibility as believers to help those who are living contrary to or in disobedience to the laws of the Kingdom. But Paul also talks about dealing with them by turning them over to the Satan, (out into the world) so they will come to their senses and hopefully return AND not confuse the stability of the local fellowship by their wrong actions. That responsibility will follow when we leave planet earth and will be judges of fallen angels even, judged by not being a part of the KOG.

    That’s how I see it Steve. Hope we can agree to disagree amicably until the LORD further enlightens us both :-)

  29. joycemb says:

    Because of Paul’s grace filled heart he admitted it was a very hard letter to write and he felt very sad that he had to do it. Humble leader there.

  30. joycemb says:

    Yet the health of the Body and the furtherance of the Gospel was his heart and mission in life. He always kept the Lord Jesus in front of him.

  31. joycemb says:

    Once as Saul he was very zealous for the laws of Moses and the Jews, but when God gave him a new name, Paul, he became a changed man from the inside out! I believe that’s his goal and aim for us all. To be changed from the inside out. Sometimes it takes a real reality check to get it done. Paul needed to be knocked to the ground and blinded in order to see the error of his ways.
    OK sorry enough preaching.

  32. street says:

    What can be crueler than the Jew’s addiction to the ideal.”

    addiction to a deception.

    some how addiction to a Person rather than an ideal is better when the Person loves you and is God. being addicted to an ideal is being addicted to yourself and no other. yet God has away of destroying pedestal and ideals. which brings me to the place of closest scrutiny…motive. motive in ourselves and others can be obscured by deception, but light or a man of understanding can bring it to the surface. hope the man of understanding is humble and loving, in grace and truth. when brought to the surface usually very revolting and you just want to run from it like jonah.

  33. joycemb says:

    Steve thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to read and respond to what I wrote.

  34. SFDBWV says:

    Joyce just a fast quick note for you, you are very welcome as I enjoy your posts. I will say with a smile and small chuckle that it is fine with me to agree to disagree,

    I will let it go from there with warm feelings for you and as I said a smile.

    Steve

  35. street says:

    There is a responsibility for us as a Church to clean up matters within the Church, just as there is a necessity for us to recognize sin in the world.

    to clean up is a work of the Holy Spirit through conviction and repentance. man can confront but only the Spirit can convict and restore. the gifts to the Church are for the building up of the Church for the Glory of Christ, His Bride. let her be as Beautiful,blameless and spotless, as Her Husband. washed and made clean for His Glory.

    everything, man, apart from God seeks to glorify self….the same goal as satan, who was rejected and judged…..sentence not carried out yet. the deception of glorifying self is the idea or ideal you can live without God. now that is monstrous. the One called monstrous actually becomes life to the soul that bursts.

    Isaiah 57:15
    For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, “I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite.

    Psalm 34:18
    The Lord is near to the brokenhearted And saves those who are crushed in spirit.

    Psalm 147:3
    He heals the brokenhearted And binds up their wounds.

    Isaiah 61:1
    [ Exaltation of the Afflicted ] The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the Lord has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;

    the hard part is convincing sinners they are slaves and prisoners. another work of the Spirit.

  36. joycemb says:

    2 Corinthians 3:17
    Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

    That freedom we have as followers of Christ is a hard won freedom that only the Spirit can truly appreciate, so much that it does take Him to penetrate the hearts of the wicked.

    Hallelujah!

  37. jeff1 says:

    I think we need to remember that God chooses His warriors just as He chooses those who pursue peace so there is much more to God’s plan than anyone can explain but I am with Steve discernment is necessary to make the right choices and God has already anointed those He has chosen to fit with His plan.

    Those who inherit the earth are God’s children and only God has their DNA and only He will get you home and whether that comes through pain or gain is known only to Him because God keeps secrets for very good reasons and not to keep us in the dark but because it is not our time to see the light.

    Known only to Him are the great hidden secrets
    I’ll fear not the darkness when my flame shall dim
    I know not what the future holds
    But I know who holds the future
    It’s a secret known only to Him

    In this world of fear and doubt
    On my knees I ask the question
    Why a lonely, heavy cross I must bear
    Then He tells me in my prayer
    It’s because I am trustworthy
    He gives my strength far more than my share

    Known only to Him are the great hidden secrets
    I’ll fear not the darkness when my flame shall dim
    I know not what the future holds
    But I know who holds the future
    Its a secret known only to Him

  38. poohpity says:

    Yes we do have to have discernment because their are so many that are satisfied with telling half truths to make their own point in matters and most often do not have a clue about what we are given to know by God. God reveals in the the bible many secrets to His people. Genesis 18:17 NIV; Amos 3:7

  39. jeff1 says:

    Yes, but He also keeps hidden that which must be hidden until the appointed time which is only known to God and that is why it takes faith to please God because waiting on God is proof that you are trusting God unconditionally because you are trusting His word regardless of the circumstances in your own life or in the world which I believe matters more to God.

    Faith, hope and love and the greatest is love but that does not mean that faith and hope do not matter as they are also evidence of our commitment to Him while His love is greater evidence of His commitment to us.

    O come all ye faithful joyful and triumphant
    Oh come ye, o come ye to Bethlehem
    Come and behold Him, born the King of angels
    O come let us adore Him
    O come let us adore Him
    O come let us adore Him, Christ the Lord

    Sing choirs of angels, sing in exultation
    Sing all ye citizens of heaven above
    Glory to God in the highest
    O come let us adore Him
    O come let us adore Him
    O come let us adore Him, Christ the Lord

    O come let us adore Him
    O come let us adore Him
    O ocme let us adore Him, Christ the Lord
    O come let us adore Him, Christ the Lord

  40. poohpity says:

    How can one trust His word if they do not know it? How can one trust what others say about it when they have nothing to compare it with? Are we adoring God when we have hate and unforgiveness for others that do not meet our standards but that are created in His image? How can we be joyful and triumphant when we are burdened with sorrow and grief? Doesn’t that mean we have no love, faith or hope?

  41. joycemb says:

    I’m just remembering how the playing field is level at the cross. At the same time we are all different. I just started reading a book called A Fellowship of Differents by Scott McKnight -Showing the World God’s Design for Life Together. There’s always do much work to do it seems as we all are growing at different paces.

    Pooh I feel and understand your pain as far as not being accepted by the spiritually so called ‘elites’. But no matter how others in ignorance treat us ( trust me I know what it feels like to have people literally ignore me and change seats even because they didn’t want to be seen with someone with me) all we have to do is love them with the love we’ve received from God and rejoice in what He has done for us. Faith hope and love only come from God, do that even in the lonely forgotten abused times even we can still rejoice and be glad in Christ our Savior.

  42. joycemb says:

    I hope I’m understanding you correctly.

  43. street says:

    there are times for sorrow and grieving. arron not eating the sacrifice at the Temple. doesn’t mean unrighteousness just means you have a full deck of cards. whatever emotion/per portion to faith. you still have to be careful around believers and non believers. thinking abimelech. even so, can not let emotion and feeling run our lives.
    man shall live by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

  44. joycemb says:

    Correction – seen with someone LIKE me.

  45. joycemb says:

    I learned that street, to be careful around believers and non believers.

  46. joycemb says:

    Few can truly understand the depths of the mercy and grace and love of God as one who has needed it more than others. The fellowship of the differents. I love you pooh.

  47. street says:

    joycemb i am beginning to see some people who have received much grace and mercy give much too. it’s not a prerequisite but it gives a greater possibility for it. the real kicker is how great a debtor we are.

  48. joycemb says:

    Come, Thou Fount of every blessing,
    Tune my heart to sing Thy grace;
    Streams of mercy, never ceasing,
    Call for songs of loudest praise.
    Jesus sought me when a stranger,
    Wand’ring from the face of God;
    He, to save my soul from danger,
    Interposed His precious blood.
    2
    O to grace how great a debtor
    Daily I’m constrained to be!
    Let that grace, Lord, like a fetter,
    Bind my wand’ring heart to Thee.
    Teach me, Lord, some rapturous measure,
    Meet for me Thy grace to prove,
    While I sing the countless treasure
    Of my God’s unchanging love.

  49. joycemb says:

    3 Oh, to grace how great a debtor
    daily I’m constrained to be!
    Let thy goodness, like a fetter,
    bind my wandering heart to thee:
    prone to wander, Lord, I feel it,
    prone to leave the God I love;
    here’s my heart, O take and seal it;
    seal it for thy courts above.
    The Psalter Hymnal, 1987

  50. joycemb says:

    Thinking of you bubbles and pray you get a good nights rest.

  51. foreverblessed says:

    Yes, I am also thinking about Bubbles, taking her up in prayers.

    I was trying to understand what Mart is saying in this topic. The toxic words of that book are terrible, just like it was terrible to read the book of C.S. Lewis, the screwtape letters. He said he couldn’t do that anymore after the war.
    I ‘d rather not read these things.

    But Mart is pointing to a higher way:
    1 Cor 12:29-31, 1 Cor 13:12-13

    So if we do not understand everything, the higher way is the way of love!

    This weeks Psalm in the Old Church oecomenic prayer is Psalm 145:1-21

    It strikes me how often I think, when I read the Psalms, that it states that everything that God has made will praise Him!
    Everything He has made.

    And then I do think, God’s mercy is so unfathomably (good spelling?) great.

    Last week it was Psalm 89:1-18

    In the bible commentaries, which you can find on the biblehub site, it is said, that in the hebrew there is not word for forever. The hebrew word is something like ages and ages, just as in the Greek there is not word for forever. (You might guess why this word interests me)

    Ellicot’s Commentary for english readers;
    Forever-The Hebrew word “ólam” (o with a roof on it)has properly neither the abstract idea of negation of time, nor the concrete (christian) idea of eternity, but implies indefiniteness, and looks either backwards or forwords.

  52. SFDBWV says:

    The Irony, Foreverblessed, is not lost on me as someone who uses the word forever in her cyber name looks for a definition of “forever”.

    Never the less I always look forward to your thoughts and am not disappointed with this latest one.

    Thanks

    Speaking again to any and all… As I said earlier it is somewhat difficult in how to discuss this topic. When Mart gives us a “book report” it is almost impossible for me to discuss much beyond his comments since I never read the book and know even less about the author.

    The situation remains that with most all Christians I know of including my own “rebirth”. There is a point in time where you/I became changed.

    A point when we could not get enough reading of the Bible when for the first time the “words” jumped off of the pages of Scripture and we realized them for the first time. These very words became alive to us,

    This is not an intellectual process, this is a religious experience, maybe for some not as dramatic as Paul’s encounter on the road to Damascus, but just as life changing.

    This excitement and experience is what Jesus refers to when He says for us to return to our first love.

    And while yes Paul does a great job defining love in 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 KJV. Poets, authors and yes kings have tried to explain love “forever” and it is just something almost eternal in explanation. Well beyond intellectual reason.

    Perhaps that is the “story” of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation, a love story including all the all the excitement and all the heartache. An eternal story that goes on “forever”.

    62 degrees and partially cloudy this morning in the mountains of West Virginia.

    Steve

  53. SFDBWV says:

    Long ago I pondered why God would “demand” such praise and adulation from us his mortal created inferior beings.

    It was made aware to me that behind such a demand was the truth that God wants us to get our center thoughts off of us. For us to not be the most important “one” to our thinking.

    It is a beginning to learn to think of others first and to learn to love others in a selfless way.

    Such worship as God demands God can “handle” while if you look at people who gain a status of worship, what you eventually see is the failure, fall and destruction of the person.

    “Der Fuhrer” was worshiped by a nation of people. Look at the result of such power applied to man instead of to God.

    Steve

  54. jeff1 says:

    Pooh’s post July 12 8.19 pm

    How can one trust His word if thy do not know it?

    I know there are preachers that I trust with God’s word because the indwelling Spirit resonates with the truth.

    How can one trust what others say about it when they have nothing to compare it with?

    Again the indwelling Spirit resonates with the truth.

    Are we adoring God when we have hate and unforgiveness for others who do not meet our standards but are created in His image?

    I am not because I confess to having hatred for my enemies but I know many Christians who would not have my struggle with loving enemies so that is very much a personal struggle and not a combined one.

    How can we be joyful and triumphant when we are burdened with sorrow and grief?

    I doubt very much if Christ’s followers in the bible felt joyful and triumphant but they went to their death’s knowing whom they lived and died for and that required faith to my way of thinking.

    Doesn’t that mean we have no love, faith or hope?

    I usually find that one of the three applies i.e. although I do not love my enemies I hope that time is a healer and my faith in God’s love for both me and them is unconditional. What I am unable to do God will do and the evidence of that is ‘Christ Jesus’.

    To put it in a nutshell I trust God with both my own and my enemies Salvation because His love is inclusive while I find myself in the same circumstances as my enemies whose love is exclusive and it is in knowing this that I agree with God that His judgement is just and final because He is a God who loves justice, goodness, and mercy and He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will.

  55. jeff1 says:

    To God be the glory, great things He has done;
    So loved He the world that He gave us His Son,
    Who yielded His life an atonement for sin,
    And opened the life gate that all may go in.

    Praise the Lord, praise the Lord,
    Let the earth hear His voice!
    Praise the Lord, praise the Lord,
    Let the people rejoice!
    O come to the Father, through Jesus the Son,
    And gave Him the glory, great things He has done.

    O perfect redemption, the purchase of blood,
    To every believer the promise of God;
    The vilest offender who truly believes,
    That moment from Jesus a pardon receives.

    Praise the Lord, praise the Lord,
    Let the earth hear His voice!
    Praise the Lord, praise the Lord,
    Let the people rejoice!
    O come to the Father, through Jesus the Son,
    And gave Him the glory, great things He has done.

    Great things He has taught us, great things He has done,
    And great our rejoicing through Jesus the Son;
    But purer, and higher, and greater will be
    Our wonder, our transport, when Jesus we see.

    Praise the Lord, praise the Lord,
    Let the earth hear His voice!
    Praise the Lord, praise the Lord,
    Let the people rejoice!
    O come to the Father, through Jesus the Son,
    And gave Him the glory, great things He has done….

  56. poohpity says:

    No Joyce that is not how my life is. I am one of those people that is like a people magnet. I do not meet many people who ignore me in fact it is as if everyone I come in contact with is a long lost friend and start conversations with just about everyone. I enjoy people of every make and model. I do pull away from people who act like Pharisees or think they are all that and think others are beneath them in the church or else where but I am still cordial and respectful. I have been that way since I was a child, I think it was because we traveled so much and had to make new friends wherever we went but even being gregarious I have my loner side but that is by choice.

  57. poohpity says:

    This week on discovertheword dot org is a series on being “Satisfied” or content. It is really an interesting topic.

  58. poohpity says:

    For me I think that most of C.S. Lewis writings are fictional but the story line is very much based on Christology or Theology if you like, lol. Giving the story of God in Jesus Christ in an extraordinary way. The “The Screwtape Letters” are about the temptations we face from Satan.

  59. joycemb says:

    Thanks pooh, yep we all have our personality differences and flesh to deal with yet so amazing how the gift of grace allows Gods love to love us all anyway!!

    Screwtape Letters is quite the eye opener!

  60. street says:

    Oh, to grace how great a debtor
    daily I’m constrained to be!
    Let thy goodness, like a fetter,
    bind my wandering heart to thee:
    prone to wander, Lord, I feel it,
    prone to leave the God I love;
    here’s my heart, O take and seal it;
    seal it for thy courts above.
    The Psalter Hymnal, 1987

    9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,

  61. joycemb says:

    Not quite sure what your point is street? Thanks

  62. street says:

    the Lord knows how to save a wandering heart

  63. joycemb says:

    :-)

  64. joycemb says:

    Thanks, it was part b of 9 that threw me off.

  65. jeff1 says:

    My ex husband came from a large family (13) and a lot of the older brothers went to England when they were younger and so there was one of his brothers that he had not met.

    He had went to England and was standing at a bar and at the other end of the bar his brother recognised him as his brother and introduced himself for the first time.

    This world can change some beyond recognition but the lie Satan tells us is that God won’t recognise His own.

    I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
    For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subject to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope, that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

    We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
    Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we are saved.
    But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

    In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit itself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And He who searches our hearts knows the minds of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

    And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

  66. poohpity says:

    Wow Viv, that is the first time I have read you quoting scripture and some beautiful verses at that. Isn’t it amazing knowing that God knew who would be His before we were even a glimpse in the eyes of our parents or even before the foundations of the world were laid? Now that is something to wonderful for me to even understand or grasp. There are so many things about God as with most relationships that we have to learn about others, well unless we already have our minds made up even without all the information.

  67. joycemb says:

    I agree with you both, for me the hard part of walking in faith are the still negative thoughts about myself, others, and God even that bombard me daily. Which is why it’s vital for me to be in the WORD both written and spirit, I always come back to knowing ” His eye is on the sparrow, and I know He watches me”, which is why I find solitude so inviting and refreshing. My introvert personality is sensitive to any outside noise, and even the noise between my ears sometimes! But I thank God for who I am, all my troubles and losses as I have gained so much in spiritual blessings through the years.

    I dreamed that I had a terminal illness. It was shocking to say the least and made me think about what I would do with the time I had left if it were true. At first I thought about maxing out my credit cards and visiting family/friends I hadn’t seen for a long time and also had not made any effort to see me actually :-). But then when the panic subsided I thought, nothing, I’d do nothing different than I have been doing because I am convinced my life is in His hands and it is full with daily ministering to unbelieving friends/neighbors all around me! I’m so content with where I’m at because and only because of the great love of our great God who is my life! Sharing that love is my great joy and gladness in life! Can’t imagine how great it will be to not have fears, worries, doubts etc assaulting me daily. But for the joy set before Him He endured…. May I be faithful to love as He has loved me, and nothing less!

    And may all be faithful to love as you also have been loved by Christ Jesus.
    Blessings abundant,
    Joyce

  68. SFDBWV says:

    Most of us have known of or experienced young adult Christians who go off to college and “lose” their faith in Christianity.

    They may or may not have been raised up in good Christian homes complete with good examples of parents. Yet the result is when they get to a higher education their intellect is challenged in their childhood perceptions of what Christianity as a religion has accomplished.

    No Sunday school teacher is going to tell them about how the early church in Rome became a political power burning people to death tied to a stake for challenging their authority.

    Nor will they teach about the blood shed that followed the separation of the protestant church from the control in Rome.

    But they will learn it from atheist college professors.

    The child or young teenager isn’t going to hear about the Spanish inquisition in Sunday school either, as most parents ignore it as well. Nor of the conquest of the world by a church that used the sword and fear as the means of establishing “churches”.

    Nor will the child hear about how the church in England, newly separated from Rome, took up the habit of burning protestors or any they judged as “heretics” to death.

    One of the worst stories I ever read about was the burning of 7 men in a town in England whose guilt was reading the Lord’s Prayer to their children in English rather than Latin.

    No, unlike the example of the Bible the history of Christianity was cleaned up for the congregation.

    But once educated an entire new look and light was shined upon Christianity as a religion and so the ignorant and unprepared were in for a shock.

    So “Johnny or Jane” come home from college believing that their education has exposed the hidden atrocities of Christianity and are disillusioned and for many they fall away from their childhood/childish faith.

    They feel betrayed and lied to.

    From such a base we see the writings from Steiner’s book.

    All one sided and all intellectual. Missing is the supernatural experience of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the other side of the story.

    The other side being, in part, we who are Jesus’ witnesses and examples. What a tremendous responsibility it is on us to show Christ and not the world in our actions, words and life.

    Steve

  69. joycemb says:

    Amen Steve

  70. poohpity says:

    Hooey!

  71. joycemb says:

    I take it you disagree pooh:-)

  72. poohpity says:

    Steve, How many young adults coming from college have you spoken to that have walked away from their faith? I do not know of many who are not aware of the horrendous things done in the name of those who PROFESS to know Christ but believe in a religion that thinks themselves better than others, a religion of exclusion. Look what so called Christians did to the Blacks, Native Americans, homosexuals and even Jews(Hitler) to name just a few. Who would want to be a part of that prejudiced, hate filled group?

    Sad is the person that bases their thoughts about God on the behaviors of those who SAY they follow Him but do not. People are killed for their faith and doing good not because they display prejudices, hate and high standards that even they themselves are unable to measure up to. That is why the bible teaches us to count the costs first before we follow Jesus it could mean giving up the praise and acceptance of people, to be rejected and hated not from ugly behavior but just because of who we believe in.

    Most people who walk away from the faith either have a sin in their life and hide from God rather than going to Him(example; Adam and Eve) or seem to base their thoughts about Christ on the behaviors of people rather than on Christ Himself. Whichever the situation may be it all comes down to blame. Usually they have a misunderstanding of who they are to God and what He thinks about them.

    But I do know from experience that even though one may walk away from God for a time, that He never gives up His pursuit of them. Praise God or I would not be with Him today.

  73. poohpity says:

    LOL Joyce, Yesterday in our group one of the ladies said, “If we agree on everything then one of us is not thinking.”

    Even though what Steiner wrote is fiction but the problems arise from partial truths like taking things out of the whole to prove points and not considering them within the whole body. If we just had the OT and read it without knowing Jesus Christ I bet one could come away with the thoughts of Steiner as true but it is after all only a part of the story and Jesus came to reveal the Father even after the religious people had distorted so badly what God’s intent really was.

  74. joycemb says:

    Ya, I guess it’s how we disagree that counts, along with how the other person takes our disagreeing. Innuendo comes into play also.

  75. joycemb says:

    This comes to mind right now, “What is that to you”, said Jesus. I guess because there can also be jealousy about who does what, has what, or is given more responsibility by God to do work in the Kingdom. All have a vital part in building up the body. We all have a little Pharisee in us from time to time if we are brutally honest with ourselves. I know I do. Thank God for his love and mercy He extends to all people! I am still learning more and more about it.

  76. joycemb says:

    Stealing, killing, and destroying in the name of God has been going on since time began. Nothings changed. Sad but true.

  77. joycemb says:

    Good fruit enlarges the Kingdom. I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail Jesus also said. Jesus is stronger than anything that tries to go against His will. Hallelujah!

  78. SFDBWV says:

    The patience of God is well known from what we have read in our “Scripture”. It has been over 2000 years now since Jesus’ death and resurrection and God has allowed mankind to grow along with His “Church”.

    Such a barbaric and cruel world couldn’t change entirely overnight, but over thousands of years it has improved, always with that same cruel and barbaric spirit waiting for its return.

    There is that perfect time, that perfect moment when the Church will bloom at its maximum glory and at that moment in time God will reap in His Church and the world will once again be at the mercy of Godless evil works.

    Those days are told of along with their length and their end.

    The question is, as a Church, what else is missing in order for us to fully mature to that hour when we are finally in full bloom?

    We have come a long way in improving our treatment of people, but what is it that remains for us to change before we finally obtain what it is Jesus has commanded of us?

    We may not be burning people at the stake literally now, but who is it we hold to the fire of condemnation in our hearts and does that have to also fade away in time before we mature as a “Church”?

    Steve

  79. joycemb says:

    The problem as I see it Steve is that as new believers come into the church and the elders die off the church will always be in flux until the final Day of Christs return. I think the best we can do is teach, train and be very patient with everyone, as the LORD is with us.

  80. joycemb says:

    I just got the BEST news. My 9 year old granddaughter just told me she and her little sister are going to VBS next month, the same church my son grew up attending but won’t have the name of Jesus mentioned around him without getting angry. Praise God the church is willing to teach the children! Maybe my son will come back to God? I’m excited and thankful that even the less than perfect local body is doing what Jesus told them to do:-)

  81. foreverblessed says:

    That is VERY good news Joyce!
    I am so happy with you!

    I am also very happy that there are churchez, maybe not totally “holy”, there is a church in Amsterdam, a remonstrant church, which is from Armenius, the one that disagreed with Calvin, saying that people do have their own choice. The remnant of this church is very liberal, and they do not care if you are homo sexual or not.
    I have been praying for my brother in law for years and years! Now for several years he has joined their church choir, and is singing every week, Christian songs, contemporary songs. And slowly God is working in his heart!
    I am so amazed about it! Even a church like that, God works, and He works on our prayers!

    I myself have to be very very restrained in talking to him, and the name of Jesus, I must be careful using it. My own Christian terminology, I should not use it, just showing the love of Christ.
    But he is singing the Lord’s prayer after several years of having been fed up with it!

  82. SFDBWV says:

    It is going to remain obvious to me how we cling to things said in the Bible by whomever and just ignore what is said when we just don’t want to deal with them.

    In saying that, no matter all else that has been said, I will in the final analysis say that even though I have failed Jesus didn’t and so I am forgiven and so will get to heaven after all.

    So God’s “final solution” is the cross.

    What then about everything else said in the Bible, are they relevant to the final solution?

    Are the “do’s and don’ts” nullified by the cross?

    As we grow older do we become stoic in our beliefs, or do we also grow in our knowledge and understanding of our place with God and what he actually expects from us?

    Has the fire died down as we age, or has our age enabled us to see and use the fire for its purpose?

    Joan of Arc’s last words as she burned at the stake were “Jesus, Jesus”. What will be our last thoughts and our last words?

    The “book of Life” will be riveting reading and very embarrassing for most all of us.

    Steve

  83. jeff1 says:

    I think that shows that we all must come to God in our own time and not in another’s. My dad could never get me to see the folly of my youth and it is only now do I see my dad’s words were aligned with Godly thinking.

    In God’s economy there is always hope for a wayward child to my way of thinking and is why I do not get anxious about those who seem lost to me because often I am more lost then them.

    Beliefs get in the way of truth because they come back to haunt us while God’s truth never changes and is eternal.

    There is coming a day when no heartaches shall come
    No more clouds in the sky, no more tears to dim the eye
    All is peace for evermore on that happy golden shore,
    What a day, glorious day that will be.

    Chorus:

    What a day that will be
    When my Jesus I shall see,
    And I look upon His face,
    The One who saved me by His grace;
    When He takes me by the hand
    And leads me through the Promised Land,
    What a day, glorious day that will be.

    There’ll be no sorrow there, no more burdens to bear,
    No more sickness, no pain, no more parting over there;
    And forever I will be with the One who died for me,
    What a day, glorious day that will be.

    What a day that will be
    When my Jesus I shall see,
    And I look upon His face,
    The One who saved me by His grace;
    When He takes me by the hand
    And leads me through the Promised Land,
    What a day, glorious day that will be.

  84. jeff1 says:

    last post referring to Forever. 3.31 am post

  85. poohpity says:

    It does not mean a church is liberal if it does not care if one is homosexual or not, it just means it is full of followers of Christ. Since when did Christ set up standards that would not allow anyone to come to Him even you forever? From what I know of Jesus He hung around with sinners but scorned those who thought they were so self righteous, self reliant, self absorbed but if they recognized that about themselves He would even welcome them. God does not turn anyone away who comes to Him and the one’s who do not see their need for Him, it is they who have made the choice not to come but if they admitted they needed Him He would not turn them away either.

    God does not expect things from us if we ever thought He did then we have failed to have faith in His Omniscience. Our God who knows all things does not expect, He already knows even more about us than we know about ourselves but fail to acknowledge or admit to because most spend time looking for the failures of others and expect them to live by our own standard not God’s. Those who have not been blinded by their own self righteousness or godliness are the one’s who cling to that “Final Solution” offered at the Cross and Resurrection.

    The fire dies down as people still do not realize the state of their own condition and that they will need the forgiveness, mercy and grace that Jesus offers everyday for the rest of their lives, it is only when one walks away from that mirror do they forget who they really are but the Lord never forgets who we really are nor do those who are real about their own humanity. If one thinks they are better than others or less than others then they obviously are not looking at the Lord but at humanity. The fire burns out when love no longer fuels it.

  86. poohpity says:

    The fire burns out when we are no longer aware of the continual need for forgiveness, mercy and grace because we have reached the point of feeling confident in our own spirituality, righteousness and therefore have nothing more that God needs to change in us. James 1:24 NLT

  87. jeff1 says:

    I can’t say I have found a person who has reached that point because most people know their own weaknesses and that God accepts them with their weaknesses because He loves them and not because they can perfect their shortcomings.

    Its the insecurities that make people’s relationships’ difficult because as my mother would say one person’s meat is another person’s poison.

    Everyone has their likes and dislikes whether they like to admit it or not but it is only God has the right to judge because only God understands individuals in depth because we see the side of a person they wish to show us and not the whole person and we are judging them on that.

    They are probably judging us on the side we show them too but God has a much better picture of what makes us tick than we even have ourselves never mind others.

  88. joycemb says:

    I just listened to a good sermon on ligonier dot org by R C Sproul “Behaving like a Christian” part 2

    If you have a half hour to spare it would be very encouraging to listen to. I haven’t listened to part 1. He covers vengeance, forgiving, and how to get along with other believers as well as unbelievers, all from the Bible of course :-)

  89. joycemb says:

    Forever I’m so glad to hear of your brother in laws returning to fellowship and of the faithfulness of God! It is so encouraging! My son when he was 3 was so full of the Holy Spirit and surprised me being a new believer with what he would say at times. He was a follower of Christ up through middle school and was not ashamed to talk about God to his father even, a very angry God hating man. But his father did something terrible to him when he turned 15 that destroyed his confidence in himself and God. I think his trust in man and God took a large hit and he’s still trying to come to terms with it. His dad is dead now but God is alive and will not stop extending his hand of mercy to him also. I know that for certain! I will pray for your brother in law!

  90. poohpity says:

    Viv, you do not have to look very far just read what others write on here. Calling out what they see as sin or flaws or faults in others while their own lives go without much scrutiny at all because others may not match up with their own standards. Not with Christ’s standards but their own. Judging who is good or evil, pious or godless, noble or base all of which is better left to God alone who knows every person’s heart.

  91. joycemb says:

    Pooh you really should listen to the preaching I posted earlier :-)

  92. joycemb says:

    That’s just my opinion though. I’m never quite sure what the Holy Spirit is up to as far as others are concerned :-)

  93. street says:

    Long ago I pondered why God would “demand” such praise and adulation from us his mortal created inferior beings.

    it’s my understanding that adam and eve wanted to be like God because they enjoyed Him so much. whether they understood they were made in His Image i don’t know. the problem was emulating Him against His Will, Command. we are told God is light and in Him there is no darkness. also He is Righteous and Just. Holy comes to mind. we find out how much He loves man as the story unfolds. giving us insight to why He is worthy of worship praise love and God centered living. and yes we are still sinners soon to die to sins influence forever. it’s going to be awe when perishable puts on imperishable.

    it’s hard to see God or compare God to anything till you understand Jesus and Him crucified and raised.

    14
    Just as there were many who were appalled at him —
    his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
    and his form marred beyond human likeness—
    15
    so he will sprinkle many nations,
    and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
    For what they were not told, they will see,
    and what they have not heard, they will understand.

    “The Root of Jesse will spring up,
    one who will arise to rule over the nations;
    in him the Gentiles will hope.”

  94. street says:

    let not a mans lips praise himself, let other do it.

    thinking about the temporal and fickle praise of man, praised on palm sunday and crucified on friday.

    then again genuine praise for God? could a sinner ever understand it? man, made for God and His Glory, not for anything else.

    redemption / restored.

  95. jeff1 says:

    Thinking how difficult it is not to have a sinful thought makes me realize that trusting God is the right thing to do.

    My moments of revelation are just that but God is all knowing, all powerful, all just and all merciful and the Glory is His and I am thankful that I have a heart that God wants to change for the better because His ways are so much purer than mine.

    Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty!
    Early in the morning our song shall rise to Thee;
    Holy, holy, holy! merciful and mighty,
    God in three persons, blessed Trinity!

    Holy, holy, holy! All the saints adore Thee,
    casting down their golden crowns around the glassy sea;
    cherubim and seraphim falling down before Thee,
    who wert and art and evermore shalt be.

    Holy, holy, holy! Through the darkness hide thee,
    through the eye made blind by sin thy glory may not see,
    only Thou art holy; there is none beside Thee,
    perfect in power, in love, and purity.

    Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty!
    All Thy works shall praise Thy name, in earth and sky and sea;
    Holy, holy, holy! merciful and mighty,
    God in three persons, blessed Trinity!

  96. poohpity says:

    Joyce, last night I listened to about 16 minutes of the 58 minute sermon.

    street, to me if God demanded our adulation and praise it would seem more like a Hitler type of god than the One we have who has given us freedom and free will.

  97. poohpity says:

    From what Steiner said was Hitler’s thoughts about Israel being a chosen people it was not about them being superior and others inferior but it seems more about showing people that God wanted to take care of them. Unlike the other surrounding nations who wanted to do everything on their own and needed Kings or Queens to use a heavy hand to oppress their people into servitude under a ruler. More importantly that Israel would be the people that the Messiah that was promised at the beginning of the world would be born through.

  98. poohpity says:

    There were several other ways God used Israel to reveal Him by.

  99. joycemb says:

    Interesting response you have to street pooh. When we come to God do we come on our own terms? It seems that in the Bible those who refused to worship Him were destroyed, either by others directed by God or by themselves. (Ananias and Sophira, Israel, and many many others.) What does holy mean? It would be a good study I think.

  100. joycemb says:

    God is glorified by us, by our praise and adulation. Our purpose is to glorify Him, not to be little showpieces of what He can do, it’s all about Him, not us. Unfortunately there’s a lot of teaching going around about what God can do for us. It puts the focus on us and not Him.

  101. jeff1 says:

    To whom God chooses He makes holy as predestined.

    My Utmost for His Highest today says:

    Jesus said there are times when God cannot lift the darkness from you, but you should trust Him. At times God will appear like an unkind friend, but He is not; He will appear like an unnatural father, but He is not; He will appear like an unjust judge, but He is not.
    Keep the thought that the mind of God is behind all things strong and growing. Not even the smallest detail of life happens unless God’s will is behind it. Therefore, you can rest in perfect confidence in Him.
    Prayer is not only asking, but is an attitude of the mind which produces the atmosphere in which asking is perfect natural. “Ask and it will be given to you….” (Matthew 7:7).

  102. poohpity says:

    Did God destroy them because they refused to worship Him or because of what they were leading others to do which was not in the best interest of all? That is exactly the partial truths that Steiner was leading people to believe all from a lack of knowing God and learning the whole story. Go back and reread the story of Ananias and Sapphira it was because they lied when there was no reason to and they got caught and fell dead. When did God destroy Israel even after much rebellion didn’t God put into place a temporary sacrificial system to cover their sins? Better read and learn a little more.

  103. poohpity says:

    If we believe God is good all the time and all the time God is good then the things He does are just and right being in the best interest of all involved or He is a brutal dictator who cares nothing about the good of those He created but only getting the admiration and praise of those who are beneath Him like other human rulers do.

  104. jeff1 says:

    Welcome to my world.
    Welcome to my world
    Won’t you come on in
    Miracles I guess
    Still happen now and then
    Step into my heart
    Leave your cares behind
    Welcome to my world
    Built with you in mind
    Knock and the door will open
    Seek and you will find
    Ask and you will be given
    The key to this world of mine
    I’ll be waiting here
    With my arms unfurled
    Waiting just for you
    Welcome to my world

  105. joycemb says:

    Only God is worthy of our praise. Why? Because only He is good and even killed His own son to bring us back to Himself. Because He is good and wants His creation to enjoy the fruits of His goodness and not have to suffer eternally because of sin and evil, the antithesis of good (God). Good is life, the opposite is death in so many ways.

  106. joycemb says:

    They lied to God.

  107. joycemb says:

    Good thoughts here. Keep working through it.

  108. joycemb says:

    Destruction of Israel: II Kings 17
    21 When he tore Israel away from the house of David, they made Jeroboam son of Nebat their king. Jeroboam enticed Israel away from following the Lord and caused them to commit a great sin. 22 The Israelites persisted in all the sins of Jeroboam and did not turn away from them 23 until the Lord removed them from his presence, as he had warned through all his servants the prophets. So the people of Israel were taken from their homeland into exile in Assyria, and they are still there.

  109. joycemb says:

    We ARE beneath God.

  110. poohpity says:

    Any sin is against God first and foremost then against other people because it causes a rift or break in a relationship that is why it is considered a sin. There has never been a sin that brings people together in a healthy relationship.

    Hopefully everyone has already worked through this especially those who are followers of Christ. That would mean that they would find that the fictional and partial arguments of Hitler and Steiner to promote a madman’s look at God to be hooey. But it does open our minds to consider what we say we believe. To be open minded one would have to be able defend in debate that which they disagree with so there is understanding as to where the opposition is coming from but closed minded people only will think one sided.

  111. poohpity says:

    Joyce what is your definition of destruction? I do not see division as destruction since Israel is still here it has not been destroyed. Things that are destroyed no longer exist from what I understand destruction to be.

  112. poohpity says:

    If we are what one may consider beneath God then why did He come as one of us? Why did He walk and talk with Adam and Eve in the garden?

  113. joycemb says:

    As a Christ follower it takes a lifetime I think to completely work through our faith. Not talking about salvation here. Talking about our understanding of God who we will never completely know until we see him face to face. Now we see as through a dark glass, but then, face to face.

  114. poohpity says:

    Gee that sure is a general Christian ease statement, lol. How does one work through faith?

  115. joycemb says:

    Re:11:17,

    Check out Job, he found out just how beneath God he really was. Status- creator of the created. Potter/ clay. We are part of the vine and receive our nourishment from Him(vine) but without Him we can do nothing! We are lost, exiled, destroyed- all mean the same thing.

  116. joycemb says:

    Work through faith? Daily!

  117. joycemb says:

    Lucifer decided he wasn’t beneath God. Look what happened to him.

  118. joycemb says:

    Humble yourself before God and He will lift you up. Not to His status but to a place of honor as a dearly beloved child of The Most High God.

  119. joycemb says:

    I pray God will grace you with wisdom and understanding pooh. He still moves mountains!

  120. joycemb says:

    OH God, be glorified in our sitting, our standing our walking, our thinking, our drinking, our eating. Be glorified in our talking our singing our dancing our sleeping. Be glorified in our texting our blogging our phoning our skype-ing. Be glorified in our hobbies our working our tv viewing and radio-Internet listening. Be glorified in our speaking with neighbors friends and family. Be glorified in our breathing our weeping our laughter and our sighing. Let every thing that has breath praise You, LORD.

  121. jeff1 says:

    It must have been cold there in the shadow
    To never have sunlight on your face
    You where content to let me shine, that’s your way
    You always walked a step behind
    So I was the one with all the glory
    While you where the one with all the strength.
    A beautiful face without a name, for so long
    A beautiful smile to hide the pain

    Did you ever know that you’re my hero
    And everything I would like to be
    If I can fly higher than an eagle
    You are the wind beneath my wings
    It might have appeared to go unnoticed
    But I’ve got it all here in my heart
    I want you to know I know the truth
    Of course I know it
    I would be nothing without you

    Fly, fly, fly away
    You let me fly so high
    Oh, fly, fly
    So high against the sky
    So high I almost touch the sky
    Thank you, thank you, thank God for you
    The wind beneath my wings

  122. street says:

    street, to me if God demanded our adulation and praise it would seem more like a Hitler type of god than the One we have who has given us freedom and free will.

    God is that demanding kind of God. He said,” the soul that sins shall surely die.” a.h. can see this part of God’s nature quite well. it’s the the cross is where he completely loses touch with the truth because of self centeredness. i ask you, “what is self centered about the cross?” a.h. might say the cross is brutal, grotesque, and monstrous i want none of it. yet i believe it is the Greatest act of sacrificial love that could be conceived of. the righteous redeeming the wicked and at the same time condemning all sin and evil. thank God He is sinless or we would still be in our sins. His Resurrection proves His sinlessness and our redemption price has been payed in full. new life, new relationship in Christ the old is passing away. behold all things are made new.

  123. joycemb says:

    1psalm 91 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High Will abide in the shadow of the Almighty. 2I will say to the LORD, “My refuge and my fortress, My God, in whom I trust!

  124. street says:

    i do remember a Christian hymn singing about God’s love demanding my all. it’s like looking at the world, the only thing i ever knew and finding a treasure,God, and ditching the world for God. a.h. ditched God and found himself in a ditch. yes God is demanding, but he is just and righteous too. the icing on the cake is His love the, sweetest of all. the hard part is remembering the sweetness of His love in the bitterness of sorrow and suffering, in the furnace if you will. a.h. wanted nothing of the furnace. God wants us to be conformed to the image of His Son. Perfect.

  125. street says:

    29 But as for me, afflicted and in pain—
    may your salvation, God, protect me.
    30 I will praise God’s name in song
    and glorify him with thanksgiving.
    31 This will please the Lord more than an ox,
    more than a bull with its horns and hooves.

  126. poohpity says:

    street, if after we find out about God and learn the little we are given to learn the praise and adoration seems to comes naturally not because we are demanded to do it. That would be like God ordering people to love Him and that is not love at all.

    There are some things that are hard to read or understand in the bible about how God has related to some people but because I trust Him I know there had to be a very good reason. i.e. the flood, causing warriors to turn and kill themselves, what was allowed to happen to Job, the earth swallowing up people, fire being rained down on towns, not stopping so many innocent from being slaughtered, just lots I do not understand but I still believe God is good and although I am not demanded to praise and worship, I do it because it is God we are talking about after all, even in our ignorance we can look around at creation and see His hand, heart and majesty. I do not have to be forced to do it, it is done with gratitude and love.

    Both you(street) and Joyce can think of God what you will but it does sound more like how Steiner presented God than the way Jesus did.

  127. jeff1 says:

    O God, our help in ages past,
    Our hope for years to come,
    Our shelter from the stormy blast,
    And our eternal home.

    Under the shadow of Thy throne
    Thy saints have dwelt secure;
    Sufficient is Thine arm alone,
    And our defence is sure.

    Before the hills in order stood,
    Or earth received her frame,
    From everlasting Thou art God,
    To endless years the same.

    Thy word commands our flesh to dust,
    “Return, ye sons of men”:
    All nations rose from earth at first,
    And turn to earth again.

    A thousand ages in Thy sight
    Are like an evening gone;
    Short as the watch that ends the night
    Before the rising sun.

    The busy tribes of flesh and blood,
    With all their lives and cares,
    Are carried downwards by the flood,
    And lost in foll’wing years.

    Time, like an ever-rolling stream,
    Bears all its sons away;
    They fly, forgotten, as a dream
    Dies at the op’ning day.

    Like flow’ry fields the nations stand
    Pleased with the morning light;
    The flow’rs beneath the mowers hand
    Lie with’ring ere ’tis night.

    O God, our help in ages past,
    Our hope for years to come,
    Be Thou our guard while troubles last,
    And our eternal home.

  128. joycemb says:

    I Surrender All
    Israel Houghton
    Lyrics
    All to Jesus I surrender
    All to Him I freely give
    I will ever love and trust Him
    In His presence daily live
    All to Jesus I surrender
    Humbly at His feet I bow
    Worldly pleasures all forsaken
    Take me Jesus take me now
    I surrender all
    I surrender all
    All to Thee my blessed Saviour
    I surrender all
    All to Jesus I surrender
    Make me Saviour wholly Thine
    Let me feel the Holy Spirit
    Truly know that Thou art mine

  129. joycemb says:

    Justice and mercy are not opposites though they sound like they should be. Joined together with humility we get a better picture of God, God hanging on a cross dying for you and me. As street said, proving His Holiness (sinlessness) and thereby capable of being the Perfect sacrifice like no other that had gone before. People all through time have done ritual sacrifices to ‘please’ the gods so they would have good crops, weather etc. Even willing to offering up their own children! Thinking of Abraham’s obedience that could have cost Isaac his life. But God had another plan for all mankind.

  130. joycemb says:

    Ever think about how privileged we are to live in this time? Wonder when Christ is returning? It may be today, maybe tomorrow. We must live as if He’s coming soon to pick us up, we must be ready. Keep the lamp stands burning!

  131. street says:

    in away poo i can understand your point about praise and love. which leads me to God foreordaining and His Sovereignty. God Foreordained that some would repent and worship Him before the foundation of the world. yes they do this willingly and God foreordained it. this is piggybacked on the idea of God has mercy on some and not on others. God is the potter not man. evil has a way of believing self more righteous and smarter than God.
    as for grace we both are blogging in the 21 century before our computers in relative peace and comfort, knowing we deserve judgment and worse. i am thinking merciful and patient for the children of God. some want to make things better at the expense of others. thinking the children of God want people rightly related to God and each other. people always bring up others faults/sin for good reason, Jesus dealt with sin first in the people He forgave. no forgiveness no relationship just scorch and burn.

  132. joycemb says:

    I woke up from a really sad dream the other night. I dreamed that I had done something wrong and everyone in the room knew about it but no one would confront and expose me. The silence was really horrible. I felt outside of the group I was with until I woke up and I searched for something to repent of. God showed me something I had done a couple months ago I never gave a second thought about until He showed me and knew I needed to repent and also make restitution for it. I did it quickly and recognized how blessed we were to have the HS to help us. How we live is very important here as we are ambassadors for Christ. I want people to see the real me, the one who’s not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but completely depending on the grace of God in Christ Jesus. And, unashamed of the Gospel because it is about life, everlasting life!

  133. poohpity says:

    Foreordained means knew before hand not demanded.

  134. street says:

    foreordain

    verb (used with object)
    1.to ordain or appoint beforehand.

    2.to predestine; predetermine.

    dictionary . com

  135. street says:

    even so we are to live by faith, not assumptions. many assume they are righteous.

    jobs friends got in trouble for filling in the blanks incorrectly. when we come to a blank spot it is good time to seek ask and knock.

  136. street says:

    mendicants for salvation… men and women creatures of flesh he abandoned to the blackmail of hell, eternal punishment. What were our camps compared to that?

    abandoned? God offers His Son in payment for sin. God gives a new Spirit. God gives us His Word. seems to me the punishment would be being separated from One Who created,redeemed, and restored.

    what were our “concentration” camps compared to that, hell?
    thinking of samson, “i only did what they did to me.”

    a sinful beggar becomes a Son! freely and without cost?

  137. street says:

    Matthew 7:2
    For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

  138. foreverblessed says:

    Freely, and without a cost

    What Jesus did to us, is something like this:
    A thief comes into my house and steals.
    I find out what has been stolen, I buy it new.
    And when the thief comes to me to say sorry, I answer him:
    It is ok, I have forgiven you, and I have paid for the loss already. You do not have to pay back, but now, don’t do it again, come as a friend, and ask what you need, and I will give it to you.

    But only, trust me that I give it to you, do not come in and steal anymore.

  139. foreverblessed says:

    Or I say to “her”, instead of “him”

  140. foreverblessed says:

    That reminds me of the story of St Maarten:
    A man had been a guest in his house, and left.
    He was later caught by the police with the silverware of his house. The police thought him back to Maarten.
    And what did he do?
    He immediately went to the cupboard and took the rest of the silverware, and gave it to the thief, saying:
    Oh, I forgot to give this to him as well!

    And the thief left, and the policeman left, wandering what this was all about.

    The thief had an internal struggle, and finally went back to St Maarten, and said he was sorry!

    Maarten did win a soul by being good for an evil act.

  141. joycemb says:

    Forever I love that story it was part of Les Miserables by Victor Hugo, my all time favorite play/movie. How are you? Still praying for your BIL.

    Bubbles praying for you also. How are you doing?

  142. joycemb says:

    Oh forever in the one movie version the priest says to the thief after the police leave, “Remember, you belong to God now” . And Val Jean, played by Liam Neeson, is a changed man by the power of mercy, grace and forgiveness, and does nothing but good for his community thereafter in many ways. But even as his accuser hunts him down he remains humble and it’s his humility that destroys his accuser in the end. Powerful the grace of God in our lives.

  143. poohpity says:

    The point I was trying to make street is that it “seems” that God is not like human rulers or dictators that FORCE their will and ways on people. God invited people to come to Him not to give up who they are but for the real person to get rid of the masks and facades which sin causes and just be totally themselves, the unique person God created them to be. He “seems” also to want us to come to Him because of who He is. Repent means to turn to Him not by force but from desire.

    It “seems” God knew before hand(foreordained) who would come to Him and He predestined (gave us purpose) when we did. That purpose was in our behaviors or actions to give forgiveness, show mercy and grace, to help the needy and care for those who are hurting, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, love and do good to our enemies and share the Gospel in words and actions. All of which are actions or behaviors that come from a relationship with God.

    I will use discernment or judgement as you insinuated street to be able to differentiate what is of God and which is not. Just like in any relationship if one carries a message to me and says it is from so and so and what they say does not sound like the person they say sent it I will question the source and hopefully everyone will do the same. After all God gave us a brain and asks that we use it not to think as we are told or forced to believe but because it has been tested or experienced and found to be true.

  144. SFDBWV says:

    Even since I can remember I have studied people. I watched them listened to them and observed things that were interesting to me.

    As I got older that “amusement” or past time became more intellectual as I became a student of human behavior.

    I’m not going to get into the science of it all, just that people, every one of us have a pretty good understanding of what it is we want to convey either by writing it down or by what we say.

    When we write it down we can re-read and edit and hone it until we get it pretty well perfect as what we want said. However when we speak or even here send a quick message what we want to get across sometimes gets lost.

    Of course there is an entire group of psychological things going on with the recipient of what is heard or read as preconceived notions and prejudices abound.

    One of our favorite slang usages we hear often is, “Do you know what I am saying?” or humorously “Nom sayin?”

    As a segue into our topic, I believe Steiner used Hitler as a vehicle to expound his own thoughts. When I think of Saled’s comment that she had read a New York Post pan of the book as saying Hitler had the last word. However it was just Steiner’s way of getting said something he held inside him he wanted said.

    As an observation of commentary here, it is very clear that some of us have a very difficult time conveying what we want understood.

    Almost as if no one really reads what is said, but uses it as a springboard to say something else they want said.

    I would suppose after this BTA site is closed and gone, Mart may have quite the book in the study of human nature especially with regards to “religious” beliefs.

    I wonder if then he will finally get to say what is on his mind as well, regarding all of us.

    Because only a mushroom perhaps could live among people and not come to conclusions as to their personas.

    Steve

  145. poohpity says:

    1 John 4:1 NLT

  146. poohpity says:

    Steve, after reading the things Mart has written many times has expressed his thoughts about the blog commenters not specifically pointing any fingers at any specific people but has used the topics to address the issues. But it is as you said and have done yourself Steve “Almost as if no one really reads what is said, but uses it as a springboard to say something else they want said.”

  147. foreverblessed says:

    Oh, yes, Joyce, I wanted to thank you for praying for my BIL, ha ha, got it… Brother In Law!
    That really touched my heart when I read, you saying, I pray for him.
    Thanks, he needs lots of prayer still! He is often thrown into deep despair. Depression sets in.
    But he keeps going back to that church, and keeps singing I the choir!
    God indeed has many ways in working in humans.

    Thanks for praying!

  148. joycemb says:

    No mushrooms her Steve, nom say’in?

  149. joycemb says:

    here

  150. joycemb says:

    Pooh I can’t figure out how you can’t see how judgemental you are, especially when you are faced with Truth. It will set you free though. But submission to anyone especially men is impossible as you once stated ” I swore I would never let another man hurt me”. Vulnerability is part of the experience of being a part of the Body of Christ. Let anger have no place in your heart, no matter how justified it seems to be.

    I am expecting push back by the way, let er rip!

  151. poohpity says:

    So you are saying I should allow another man, like my first husband, to hit me so hard that my eye gets knocked through my eye socket again? Yep that will work, NOT. My judgement is that is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard anyone say. Joyce keep to what you know and you do not know me, not even a little.

  152. poohpity says:

    The truth that sets us free is Jesus not what others see as their slanted, shaded, prejudiced truth. ““If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”” “For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” “Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” “So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.”

  153. joycemb says:

    Pooh I’m speaking figuratively not literally. And I do know you, you are just like my dad- the way he thought and manipulated, and just like me also- pushing back at any and all authority type figures that come along my path just so I don’t get hurt again. And btw, I’ve suffered far worse from my husband, father, and other men. I do know you which is why I love you pooh even with your difficult personality. It’s all about love, we are told to love others as we love ourselves. God is the only One I can really trust. He is enough! Yes even and especially for broken people like you and me.

  154. joycemb says:

    Pooh your Message of salvation is pure and truth, it’s your delivery that sucks sometimes when you are trying to defend your Message. Let the truth sit, it will be heard. You and I are not that great at apologetics :-).

  155. poohpity says:

    “Dear Pooh,
    I ask your forgiveness for judging you the past 4-5 years. I was wrong, so so wrong, and I am very sorry for any pain I have caused you.

    Because He lives!
    Joyce”

    Just words and hooey at that. How do you know me? How much time have you spent with me one on one, talking on the phone or even writing emails, so how can you know me? Do you know what I do each day? So that is the biggest lie. I do not like to be around abusive people whether physically abusive or verbally. If what you do towards me is considered by you as love frankly I do not like the way you love me and I can do without it. If you love me the way you love yourself I feel bad for you.

  156. poohpity says:

    Joyce, what is my favorite color, my favorite food, my favorite flower, how many surgeries have I had, what are the ages of my kids, how many years of public service have I done, how many ministries am I involved in or have been involved in, how many siblings do I have, how long is my hair, what color are my eyes or hair, how many times have I been married? So to say you know me is a delusion.

  157. joycemb says:

    Pooh! Personality is personality! No I don’t know what you do and what you like and frankly don’t care to know you that intimately. But personality comes through loud and clear in a blog.

  158. poohpity says:

    You just said you know me then you say you do not even care to know me. Gee I am confused. Is it my personality you are seeing or a reflection of your own, transferring it to me?

  159. joycemb says:

    Nooe, it’s yours pooh. I am very different.

  160. joycemb says:

    Read @ 11:54 again very slowly please.

  161. joycemb says:

    per·son·al·i·ty
    ˌpərsəˈnalədē/
    noun
    1.
    the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual’s distinctive character.
    “she had a sunny personality that was very engaging”
    synonyms: character, nature, disposition, temperament, makeup, persona, psyche
    “her cheerful personality”

  162. foreverblessed says:

    I sense a lot of hurt, and a lot of anger!

    I pray Pooh, that God will heal you and comfort you, that His peace might reign in you!

  163. joycemb says:

    Forever the hurt comes from being wrong. She’ll get over it, she’s tough that way:-)

  164. foreverblessed says:

    Corrie ten Boom was in a concentration camp. She knew what evil looks like. She herself said that her sister was more spiritually mature then she was. When the anger and the hurt was all around her, her sister said: only bless!
    Corrie did have a hard time to fight the anger.
    But as they were walking together, she felt the presence of Jesus with them. Jesus was very very close!
    Her message was: No matter how deep life goes, Jesus goes deeper!
    And she knew what she was saying.

    After the war she felt the urge of the Holy Spirit to start a recovery camp for survivors of the concentration camps. Somebody asked her: Should you yourself not go to that recovery camp? No, she said, because Jesus was with me all the time! He carried me through!

    People who have been abused need recovery, they do not need to hear that Jesus said: turn the other cheek!
    But nonetheless, Jesus has instructed us so.

    But first we must come at Rest in His Bossom.

    Rest in Him

  165. foreverblessed says:

    And by the way, it is my opinion that the writer, George Steiner, wanted to expose the depraved mind of A.H., it was not his own thinking. Just as C.S. Lewis did not give his own thinking when he wrote screwtape letters. He just wanted to show the twists a d turns of evil thinking:

    Jesus who gave up His own life so as to save us,
    AH turns it into: God Himself is not willing to do what He asks of us
    How far can you be from the truth.
    Then Mart goes on to say that the final solution is in the Cross.
    The Sea if Mercy that flows around us, and all that come to their senses, can dive into!

  166. foreverblessed says:

    Joyce, I feel a lot of hurt of past abuse.

    And I have listened to the whole sermon on Romans 12:16-21

    Much to chew on, our need of be vengeance! Our old man that is! And not only so, we do not want to come even, we want to go a little further so the offensive person does suffer a bit more, then exactly suffering what he/she has done to us.

    Vengeance is only to God.

    The example of the pastor who did not defend himself was also good.

    Thanks for the tip!
    I am still chewing on it!

  167. foreverblessed says:

    Pooh, I want to encourage you, keep your eyes on Jesus.
    And by saying so, I do not mean that you do not keep your eyes on Jesus, but that you keep doing so, as you have done in the past, never stop looking at Him in faith!

  168. poohpity says:

    I am very thankful for the feedback because there are many areas that need work in my life and I know you all have the ability to change them in me or else you would not share what they are. It even means more to me coming from such special godly people as everyone on here.

  169. poohpity says:

    forever, why do you then keep your eyes on me then if we are to keep our eyes on Jesus?

  170. joycemb says:

    (sigh)

  171. mtman says:

    I love the drama of a good cat fight – pure entertainment. Not so Christ like however but then when cats fight it seems Christ is farthest from their mind. Really laying down a good example ladies….not a Christ like example but it doesn’t appear you care so why should readers of this blog care.

  172. foreverblessed says:

    well, actually I was thinking more in line of Psalm 91

    He who dwells in the shelter
    of the Most High,
    will rest in the shadow of
    the Almighty.

    That whatever has been done to us, whatever people say to us, we are secure in the Shelter of God, there is no one higher then He,
    or in other words: In His Shadow, of God there is no one more Mighty then He is, and there is the place to be, the place to stay. Not coming out of it. Bu staying there.

    I encourage everyone to do so here!

  173. joycemb says:

    Ya not too many church facades here, just real struggles and issues.

  174. poohpity says:

    You are right Bruce as always. Must be nice.

  175. joycemb says:

    I love that God came down and dwelt among us, and still does -Christ in you, the hope of glory-said Paul.

    As far as the blog goes I imagine Mart sitting in his big chair in the picture thinking, writing, and praying for us all. Being among us also being very quiet most of the time. I’m sure we frustrate him sometimes STOP IT! Was so funny and we got the message, for a week or two. :-).But he has never criticized us or shamed us for our behavior here. That says a lot. It says a lot about Mart and the God he loves and has served for many years.

    That said mtn man you might want to discuss his problem blog with him. Since it is ultimately his blog?!
    Blessings,
    Joyce
    Meow

  176. joycemb says:

    Forever I thought of you when I read this, thanks for the refocusing!

    A lady went to her Pastor and said “Pastor, I won’t be going to your church anymore.” The Pastor responded “But why?” The lady said “Ah! I saw a woman gossipping about another member; a man that is a hypocrite; the worship team living wrong; people looking at their phone during service; among so many other things wrong in your church.”

    The Pastor replied “OK. But before you go, do me a favor: take a full glass of water and walk around the church three times without spilling a drop on the ground. Afterwards, leave the church if you desire.” The lady thought: too easy! She walked three times around the church as the Pastor had asked. When she finished she told the Pastor she was ready to leave.

    The Pastor said, “Before you leave I want to ask you one more question. When you were walking around the church, did you see anyone gossipping?” The lady replied “No.” “Did you see any hypocrites?” The lady said “No.” “Anyone looking at their phone?” “No.” “You know why?” “No.”

    “You were focused on the glass, to make sure you didn’t stumble and spill any water. It’s the same with our life. When we keep our eyes on Jesus, we don’t have time to see the mistakes of others. We will reach out a helping hand to them and concentrate on our own walk with the Lord.”

  177. joycemb says:

    And pooh, the LORD reminded me to not get too hung up on law and behavior but remember I am saved by grace alone! Thanks, we do need each other here.

  178. street says:

    dear mtman thinking of jacob and what God did with Him, it will pale in comparison to what God can do with these two sisters. never underestimate what God can do.

    been thinking about the word mendicant, beggar, seems to me when we were dead and dwelling in darkness with no hope how can you be a beggar? remember people living in darkness seeing a great light. the motto or theme of the reformation….after darkness…..light. joy comes in the morning. i guess as a young child we can ask our parents for foolish things even begging….but as we get older we can get deceitful in our asking….when Jesus tells us we must become like little children or we can not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Matthew 18:3 a child / trusting and dependent. a.h. “did it my way.” to coin a phrase. loved the devotional today about a child and a Father. wait watch follow closely. i have to say watching the world only causes confusion.

  179. street says:

    6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

  180. foreverblessed says:

    Mart ends with 1 Cor 13:12-13

    “Now I know in part; then I shall know (and love) fully, even as I am fully (and lovingly) known.”

    1 Cor 8:3
    But the one who loves God is known by God.

    1 John 4:10-12

    Sometimes we do not understand the other, what he/she is writing, it helps if we understand, then we know the background of what is written.

    With God there is purity, whatever He writes is love, and out of love.
    As was mentioned earlier, God does not demand us to love Him, although in the bible the first command is:
    Love God with all your heart, and soul, and mind.

    It is stated as a command, but when we get to know God better, we know that God did not mean it as a command, but as an invitation, that when we get to know Him better, we but cannot love Him, as His love for us is SOOOOOOOO great, He gave His one and only Son,
    “He prepared a body”
    “I have come to do Your will”

    so as to save us from our lost state.
    And give us eternal life with Him.

    That love is so great, when we get to know that love, we cannot but love God.

    My prayer is that all will get to know God.
    that the spirit of lies will finally be made clear. And that all will see how the darkness has kept them form seeing God as he really is.

  181. foreverblessed says:

    We cannot love Him

    I wanted to say:

    We cannot BUT love Him.

    It is impossible not to love Him, if we get to know How Much He loves us.

  182. SFDBWV says:

    Each morning after getting Matt settled in I set here at the computer look at the news, weather, and have a peek at BTA. As always I wonder if I should say anything at all. I look for inspiration and guidance as well as concerning myself with the feelings of others before saying what is foremost in my mind.

    It is so easy to become combative when someone is trying to provoke you. The key is remembering that when someone insults you with a slap it can be ignored, but when someone punches you in the nose that is a different matter.

    My apology to you Joyce because it was my comments that apparently ruffled the feathers of BTA’s consistent trouble maker. Leading to the exchange of comments between you and her. For that I am sorry you got the ire of her anger.

    There have been others who tangled with her trying to make her see the err of her ways, but as you can easily see they no longer post as she brings out the worst in people and they don’t like being placed in such a position.

    Odd, I had a completely different thread of thought I wanted to share this morning, but this is what came out instead.

    The ugliness of strife is as Paul said a canker that effects everyone, spoils the moment and disrupts the peaceful unity of the group.

    I join with all here in praying for the spirit of strife to be stilled and each of us filled with His Spirit.

    56 degrees under a crisp clear sky with half a moon, stars and those beautiful bright planets that grace the morning sky.

    Steve

  183. joycemb says:

    Steve thank you that means a lot to me. As for the exchange with pooh yesterday I was never angry or upset even. Nothing she says to or about me bothers me because I get her now. It was the unkindness of Mtman who obviously was reading but not hearing with his heart what was going on. The struggle to fully understand how grace works is real for some of us, and yes I have learned this blog is not as safe a place to “work out your most holy faith” (Paul) as I’d thought. I’m really hurting and can’t sleep. I know some will be praying for us here.
    Joyce

  184. jeff1 says:

    If people dressed in colours
    According to their deeds
    Then many leading men would dress in black
    And lots of unsung heroes
    Who never made a name
    Would be walking round with
    Gold upon their backs

    Chorus:

    Heaven knows
    You’re a rose
    And the love inside your heart
    Just grows and grows
    No one sees
    I suppose
    That it’s something only me
    And heaven knows

    If people where like flowers
    Imagine what you’d see
    Thorns in highest places
    Where the roses ought to be
    And down along the hedgerows
    Among the grasses tall
    You would find the sweetest
    Roses of them all

    REPEAT CHORUS:

    If people where like music
    Some hearts would never sing
    Think of all the happiness
    A song like yours could bring
    You fill the life I’m living
    With love and harmony
    And you’re the sweetest song
    I’ll ever see

    REPEAT CHORUS TWICE:

    That it’s something only me
    And heaven knows

  185. street says:

    If one rules another by saying, “You must do this,” and, “You will do that,” he breaks the human spirit, making it unfit for God. A person is simply a slave for obeying, unless behind his obedience is the recognition of a holy God. Oswald Chambers

    thinking of repentance, denial of self, and taking up the cross. don’t think it’s possible to love any other way. restored by the grace and mercy that is found in Christ Jesus. to be conformed to the image of Christ.

    i find it interesting that we tend to get impatient in our desire to change others, yet God is so patient in letting us change.

  186. poohpity says:

    Disagreeing with another’s philosophy is not a personal attack but blaming other’s for the problems that arise from those disagreements with innuendo’s of blame, name calling, put down’s, references to animals, attacking a person’s character, or assuming or jumping to conclusions about the type of person they are is a personal attack. How is anyone going to make it in this world if no one can disagree with you and remain civil in the process.

    I am wrong for constantly trying to defend myself among a group of people who are incapable of discussing anything without resorting to verbal abuse or blaming their own behavior on others, then others come behind making excuses for them.

    For your information I may feel frustrated, confused or exasperated but anger is not part of it. I am used to getting into discussions all the time with my peers that do not result in being personally slandered if I do not agree. I usually present the reason that I think as I do and also allow the other person to present their reasons. Both parties present the facts they have that leads to their conclusions even with younger or older people. We have the ability to respect each other. What a boring world this would be if we all thought alike and demanded others to think the same way.

    I do not blame others for my emotions because they come from within me, they are my own fault not because of someone else. I do not expect anyone to be perfect because I know I certainly am not and I am not delusional expecting people to live up to my standards that all in and of itself shows pride as if I have a right to do so or am in any way perfect myself. Only a perfect person has the right to call another on their faults or failures. We can go to someone who is caught in a sin by walking alongside them in help to overcome but that is not about personality differences. I usually ask myself why did that circumstance, discussion cause my emotional response but I guess that comes from LEARNING to take personal responsibility for my own emotions and actions.

    How can I seek the forgiveness, mercy and grace of God if everything is always because of someone else, blame? How can I embrace the final solution if I am still stuck in the problem and never admit to being there because someone else caused it?

  187. street says:

    mendicants, beggars.

    Psalm 37:25
    I was young and now I am old, yet I have never seen the righteous forsaken or their children begging bread.

  188. mtman says:

    I thought this site was for seekers and those who wanted to dwell deeper in God’s word. Is it not for everyone? When two people engage in getting personal it seems to me that the site is disintegrating.
    It takes two to carry on a lengthy dispute and that seems to be the case here. When it becomes personal like this site has become those of us who come to the site for interaction and learning are totally distracted by the bickering and attacking each other. If anyone were to visit the site they would be put off by the personal attacks.
    There is honest discussion and debate over differences without making it personal and dressing it up to look like Christian redress.
    Anyone reading this site quickly recognizes that this ongoing bickering is personal. To dress it up by making it look Christian is deplorable. This has gone on ever since I came back to this site.
    I totally disagree with Street and this site is not a place to carry on grievances and personal attacks and pretend they are doing it in a Christian way. I find nothing God like in doing so. It takes two to argue, two to continue to keep it going and in my opinion it needs to stop. This site seems to be a small club and not open for all and stifles Christian growth, not enhancing it.
    Either party could stop the ongoing combative pretend behavior. I don’t see this site growing but instead declining to personal attacks and petty behavior. If you see it as anything but that you are deluded and fooling yourself. Step back and look at it as if you were just visiting the site for the first time. You wouldn’t expect to see all the drama that is found here on a “Christian” site.

  189. poohpity says:

    Bruce then why don’t you lead in the digging deeper and maybe others will follow rather than doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing? Rather than being part of the solution it seems as if you have fallen into the very problem you find so repugnant. Since you have been back I have yet to read a comment from you on the topic, well maybe one, at hand but many on the behavior and conduct of others.

  190. poohpity says:

    I am reminded of the quote from former First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt; “Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.”

  191. mtman says:

    Deborah: I have no inclination to engage in your conflict.. I will not be drug down to your level. Perhaps instead of trying to pull people into the morass of personal attacks which you seem enmeshed in you should put some effort into pulling yourself up a little. That is all I plan to say on this and if you can’t see what is happening then I truly feel sorry for you. I stopped commenting on this blog and now only read it on occasion.
    I kept hoping for something better but I have seen no change. You and your two protagonists would snipe at good comments and do. I see no potential for this blog as long as it is used for drama and personal attacks with weak efforts to sugar coat nastiness. Far to distracting and life is much to short to waste time on it.

  192. poohpity says:

    Please enlighten me Bruce when I have done personal attacks??? I have disagreed with people but I do not believe I have attacked them personally. So you are saying you do not criticize people personally?

    How many people have actually talked about the topics and how many have changed the subject to talk about what they want to talk about?

  193. poohpity says:

    other people

  194. poohpity says:

    It is so easy to evade a question and run away feeling justified. Making excuses as to why you will not answer after writing the things you do which is the evidence that you offer your opinions of others often.

  195. joycemb says:

    Nothing enjoyable about the cat/dog fight here today :(

  196. poohpity says:

    I am so sorry but I did not know cats or dogs could write? I do know that none of has any room to talk about others but we are all perfectly imperfect people not animals. We all have faults and failures and to speak as if we don’t is to deny reality and God’s grace has no meaning.

  197. street says:

    dear mtman i guess you missed my point. jacob received grace in a very chaotic and wild life. God chose to give grace and the sisters give each other grace and their thoughts too. sometimes it just better to be a fly on the wall and keep score……hehe. sorry could not resist that one. anyway a huge a glaring problem is people choosing the make up a court and rule over everything is a huge problem that has plagued man since the beginning. gracious people can be gracious, but not always. thinking of the debtor parable. another verse comes to mind of division 1 Corinthians 11:19
    For there “must” also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.

    many are called few are chosen. play fair sisters you could trip up your siblings and they are watching!

  198. joycemb says:

    Pooh that was in memory of the “cat fight” remark that Bruce made yesterday, it was a joke!!!

  199. jeff1 says:

    My mum would say one person’s meat is another person’s poison while I think that some people bring out the best in me while others bring out the worst in me.

    While it would be my choice to hang around with those who bring out the best in me I believe God involves me with those who bring out the worst in me to let me see my weaknesses and how much I am in need of Him.

    Without Him I could do nothing
    Without Him I?d surely fail
    Without Him I would be drifting
    Like a ship without a sail

    Without Him I would be dying
    Without Him I?d be enslaved
    Without Him life would be worthless
    But with Jesus thank God I’m saved

    Oh Jesus, oh Jesus
    Do you know Him today
    Please don’t turn Him away
    Oh Jesus, my Jesus
    Without Him how lost I would be
    Without Him how lost I would be

  200. foreverblessed says:

    Thanks you very much Street! Your remark really helpen me yesterday!
    And I do believe in the God of Jacob, that to me stands for: God the Holy Spirit, Who disciplined Jacob!
    God did not say a word to Jacob, about his cheeting. But God knew that Jacob would live with his uncle. Who had the same problem as Jacob had. That was Jacob’s discipline!

    The Holy Spirit Will train each of us individually!
    Each in his/her own unique way.

    So I likes really what you said.

    And besides, God always hopes, 1 Cor 13:1-13

    And so I want to hope too!

  201. mtman says:

    Dear Street: Apparently I did misunderstand your comment. Sorry about that and thank you for amplifying it for me.

  202. joycemb says:

    Oh street you are hilarious :-)

  203. mtman says:

    I was contributing to this site when it started and there was nasty conduct then and when it became too much a distraction I left. When I came back a few months ago I noted it had gotten worse. Steve has also been around from the start and I’m sure he can tell, if he chooses, how it has always been a part of this site.

    I came back and read some topics over the years on rare occasion and now note that those who have participated over the years have dwindled to the present core of contributors which seems to me to have evolved to factions and appears more of a club.

    Personally I find that sad and wish it were not so but the bickering and infighting is nothing but a distraction to me. Those who are guilty excuse their behavior and lash out. Not a healthy environment to have people focus more on Jesus.
    I simply have nothing further to say and find this deplorable.

  204. joycemb says:

    Speaking of cats, I adopted a beautiful 2 year old orange/ white Maine Coon Tabby mix named Annabelle from the local humane society today! Its so nice to have something alive and breathing in the apt again. That’s my good news for today, along with Gods never ending grace and patience with those who are still learning. My prayer for the blog today is that all participants will have ears to hear what God is teaching as far as becoming a step closer to Holiness (God).

    What God is teaching me is to trust Him for the outcome here and to stay engaged in the process no matter how hard.

    Mtnman if you really knew me you would know just how truly deplorable I am. But for the grace of God I’ve changed, however not even close to where you are in your walk. My apologies for upsetting your sensibilities. I do the best I am able to but I can’t promise the complete change you would like to see in the near future. Be a fly if your bored or whatever, complain when you need to, I’m doing the best I can the fastest I can. God seems to be far more patient than any of us. Guess that’s why He’s God. And were not.

  205. poohpity says:

    mtman, sorry but your facts are wrong, Steve was not here from the beginning. He came on about year after I was here but the site was already going when I came on. I went to find Sakoieta and found you too after you both left but the reason you left was not the same reason you just gave now. You said it was because someone accused you of not being a Christian just as he did to Sakoieta and others. Gee how things change after time.

  206. poohpity says:

    That was when the conversations started to go off topic to like a chat room and talking about other people.

  207. poohpity says:

    It is deplorable to me when people question others about their faith and set such high standards that they themselves do not even come close to but are so busy looking at others. Who do you think comes to Jesus? Misfits, liars, thief’s, hypocrites, adulterers, etc. because Jesus is the only one to offer us forgiveness but then to expect us to have perfect behavior really misses the point of what it means to become a follower of Jesus.

    Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.

  208. jeff1 says:

    Isn’t the reason I come to Jesus to change from this creature that I am?

    If there is no change then Jesus is not having His way and I remain the misfit, liar, thief, hypocrite, adulater etc.

    If the indwelling Spirit is changing me then the other person will see a loving, kind, humble person but if I do not allow the indwelling Spirit to have its way then the old self will remain and the other person will see an unloving, unkind and arrogant person and others will say that person hasn’t changed from the person she/he always was.

    How can I say I am a follower of Christ and not resemble Him?

    I would rather admit I struggle to follow Christ but it is my desire that it is God’s will that I be changed to His image so that I do not lack His love to endure in whatever circumstances life brings.

  209. joycemb says:

    It is deplorable to me when people question others about their faith and set such high standards that they themselves do not even come close to but are so busy looking at others. Who do you think comes to Jesus? Misfits, liars, thief’s, hypocrites, adulterers, etc. because Jesus is the only one to offer us forgiveness but then to expect us to have perfect behavior really misses the point of what it means to become a follower of Jesus.

    I’ve done that too. I guess that’s why it doesn’t bother me when others do it. It get them. Been there, done that. ugh. More grace please.

  210. joycemb says:

    Viv I agree wholeheartedly.

  211. foreverblessed says:

    To me it also seems that this has become a small group chat.
    I lately found a notebook, saying that Mtman welcomed me, May 2009. Thanks for welcoming me then!
    At that time I also saw that participants knew each other, that made me feel an outsider. But I worked on that, with the help of God.

    What I have learned here too, is to see what my old-man reaction is, as Jeff wrote too: God wants to make me stronger!

    I have seen some very good changeant in people, even recently.
    I do service Joyce struggling to love!
    Keep it up, Joyce, it is better to blessure!

    And thanks again, for that sermon!
    Saying that you can ask questions, but if the message doesn’t ring a bell, hand it over to God, and stay His happy child.
    That last part is the hardest to me, I would like the problem solved.

    But in the case of Jacob, it took 20 years!

    God is in no hurry.
    He wants a thorough job done. Not a superficial peace.

  212. foreverblessed says:

    Ohhh, sorry for the typos, my phone is still on dutch language

    But I have seen ( not service) Joyce, trying to love,
    It is better to bless! ( not blessure)

    But I do want to say again, I see good changes ( not changeant)
    And I am so happy that Jeff is here!
    We may be a small group, God is with us.

    And I am with Street, saying that there is hope!

  213. foreverblessed says:

    And then I must be honest, I have my struggles with Pooh.
    Last week I wrote about my brother in law, being homosexual.
    And look what a reaction I got from Pooh! That is such a frustration for me! What did she think that I did write, what meaning did she give to my words to react like that?
    In other words, what mearning did she put herself into my words, that was not my intention.
    So Pooh, I am very sorry, I am at a loss as to what to do with you. I could choose not to read your comments anymore.
    But as I have said before, you talk about how Christ has redeemed you! That part is positive. Keep that up!

  214. foreverblessed says:

    And then came Joyce, and said: I will pray for your BIL.
    Yes, that is the Spirit!
    When we have unity here, we could pray for people who God puts o our hearts!

  215. joycemb says:

    “In our world of loneliness and despair, there is an enormous need for men and women who know the heart of God, a heart that forgives, cares, reaches out and wants to heal. In that heart there is no suspicion, no vindictiveness, no resentment, and not a tinge of hatred. It is a heart that wants only to give love and receive love in response. It is a heart that suffers immensely because it sees the magnitude of human pain and the great resistance to trusting the heart of God who wants to offer consolation and hope.” ‪#‎HenriNouwen‬‬‬‬‬‬‬ IN THE NAME OF JESUS

  216. poohpity says:

    forever, you are right why read someone’s comment who does not look at people as homosexuals, liars, gossips, hate mongers but as real people struggling through life just as I do. I guess real Christians look at people and compare sins as some worse than others, so I guess I am not a real Christian because I do not feel I have that right. I am not yours to do anything with, I belong to the Lord and if you were His you would love me as He does. As it is belonging to peers who speak out both sides of their mouths, one day speaking the blessings(real or fake) then the next words out of their mouth tearing people up with condemnation, contempt and ridicule if that is what Christians are supposed to be then I do not want to be one.

  217. joycemb says:

    Sometimes it feels like a court of law here instead of a fellowship. He said she said. Only God can judge righteously. Best to ignore and just make cookies sometimes.

  218. joycemb says:

    Only God can love perfectly, also. Keep looking up ladies.

  219. foreverblessed says:

    Please Pooh, where in my writing did I show contempt for homosexuals?

    I was trying to say, that in that particular church homosexuality is a non- issue.
    With that I mean: practicing homosexuals.
    You can join the church choir. And he likes singing, difficult songs, with 4 parts.

    In my church he would be very welcome as he is. No questions asked. But if he wanted to join the church music group, the leading people would want a talk with him.
    Especially because he is a practicing onze.

    But they could join the church as they are, help with the coffee team.

    But in that Remonstrant Church, which is called aan liberal church in the nation’s wording, you can even be a pastor, and a practicing homosexual.
    That would be impossible in my Churchill.

    That is all I wanted to say!

    And that I am very thankful that such a “liberal” church does exist in Amsterdam, so my BIL sings these christian songs.
    I am so happy for him!

  220. jeff1 says:

    Pooh, you are making assumptions about other Christians that you do not have the right to make i.e. “I guess real Christians look at people and compare sins as some worse than others”.

    A little honesty wouldn’t go a miss, are you really telling me that you have never had an impure thought and believed someone like ‘Jack the Ripper’ didn’t commit a worse sin to yours.

    Perhaps you ought to remember that others here belong to God too, Pooh, even though you don’t care much for their shortcomings because while God loves you with your shortcomings He doesn’t exclude others because of theirs.

    Your comment, that if others where His they would love you as He does, what about your love for them since you say you are His, as my dear mum would say people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

  221. poohpity says:

    No Viv that is not what I was saying at all nor is it the way I think. If you pay attention to the way I worded it. No “Jack the Ripper” did not commit a worse sin then mine since I believe a sin is a sin. Those comparisons are human comparison not God’s. I never even insinuated that God excludes anyone because I know to Him ALL sin and fall short of His standards and Christ died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. No sinner should throw stones at other sinners unless to be first you have not sinned yourself. That is what I believe and that is what I said.

    forever, does your church stop liars from singing in the choir or gossips or people who look at what others have with envy or those who hate? God welcomes everyone to come to Him no matter their behavior and He changes their desires.

    I understand that you guys do not know what I am talking about because of your prejudiced views towards me. At least you all can agree on one thing what a horrible person I am and I seem to fill your minds most often but what a horrible waste of time that is.

  222. poohpity says:

    In our time Jack the Ripper killed prostitutes in the time of Jesus Paul was worse according to our standards because he killed innocent followers of Christ and look what happened to Paul.

  223. poohpity says:

    Look what happened to Paul after the Final Solution! Look what happens to many after the Final Solution they no longer focus on the problems with or in others they look to the solution rather than causing more problems.

  224. jeff1 says:

    Did you ever consider that your view might also be prejudiced Pooh?

    Also does it not bother you that you seem to bring out the worst in people while Jesus whom you want to be like always brought out the best in people?

    My dad would say that if you could not find something good to say about a person then to say nothing about them because he always believed that if you looked for the good in people you would find it but also if you looked for the bad in people you also would find it.

    I was raised on prejudice i.e. divided by culture and religion meant that you grew up not knowing any different.

    When people hate you enough to want to kill you then you are very aware of what hatred is and it’s much more than words on a page I can assure you Pooh.

    Look into the eyes of an enemy and see eyes of steel and you know what hatred is.

    When you know that people can hate you so deeply because you hold a different point of view and culture than them then you realize that hell is real because you are living through it.

    Paul gets it right when he says Christianity without love is pointless and my country is proof that he is right.

    Love is all that matters to being a real Christian.

  225. street says:

    A Final Solution
    remember a Bible story where Paul commands that a man,sleeping with his father’s wife be kicked out of the church “.” so that his body be destroyed.
    many are sick and died because of sin. no problem with sinners coming to church. when sin is promoted above the cross. or self over others division comes, people throw of restraint,love, and sin rules, isn’t that what we are fleeing from? the second state is worse than the first.

    the cross is the final solution for sin. no other way. a.h. refused it and destroyed the world and himself. paul said i claim to know nothing , but Christ and Him Crucified. was paul saying he want to know this love over the love of self? pride?

    as for the man kicked out of the church doesn’t God prescribe a way back. could it be the cross of Christ?

    deny yourself, take up your cross “daily”, and follow Jesus, comes to mind. yoke easy and light. compared to what?

  226. street says:

    thinking of the man paul kicked out of the church….he received grace!!!!!

    Ananias and Sapphira were not given grace.

  227. street says:

    Also does it not bother you that you seem to bring out the worst in people while Jesus whom you want to be like always brought out the best in people?

    thinking Jesus brought out the worst in people because they loved darkness and the wages and power of darkness. they stumbled over a Rock in their path, not the Way. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. accept no substitute. there is only One Lamb of God and One risen Savior. LORD of the dead and the living. thinking of the paul and his accusers from asia. they never showed up at his trial.

    20
    Do not long for the night,
    to drag people away from their homes.
    21
    Beware of turning to evil,
    which you seem to prefer to affliction.

    22
    “God is exalted in his power.
    Who is a teacher like him?

    Luke 6:26
    Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.

  228. street says:

    thinking, people have no best, if there is any good that remains it is from God not man.

    apart from Him there is nothing, wood, hay, and stubble, soon to be dust.

  229. street says:

    your Word Lord remains forever.

  230. foreverblessed says:

    dear Pooh:

    I brought this point up because of the way you reacted to my comment.

    You say, that I do not know your heart. That you only react to what is being said, and when you think something wrong is said, then you react to set that right.

    I was was saying something about a pear.

    And you reacted heavily, that an apple is not black, and even if the apple would be black, God still would like that apple to come to Him, even if it was you Forever.

    I do not know your heart, I only see your words Pooh! And these words sounded very agressive to me!

    So I asked you, can you reconsider what you wrote. And then you had a big litany about the church calling an apple black, and making such a big point about it, that you do not want to be part of a church who calls an apple black.

    All the while you talk about a different discussion then what I wanted to say, I was talking about a pear.

    So, yes, it is terrible when people talk about an apple being black, I do agree with you. But I did not make that apple black, it was you who made my pear into an apple.

    Am I clear enough now Pooh?

    I do not attack you in any way Pooh, I am trying to sort out the frustration you say you have on this blog, and the frustration I have when I read your reactions.

    I write this in complete peace, as I have come to Jesus about this, He knows what I was trying to say, I have settled my frustration with Him. I write this to come to a peaceful unity with you Pooh. I am not prejudiced against you, I am only reading what you write. And you make my comment a different discussion, not the point I was trying to say.

    This topic is about a final solution, I am hoping for a final solution for the ongoing and needless discussions here between us Pooh!

    I am for peace and unity.

    I am for peace and unity.

    I am very glad that you don not want it that an apple is being called black. I am very happy that you defend an apple. But I was talking about a pear.
    But now I am repeating myself, sorry for that.
    I am lookujng for a final solution for peace on this blog!

  231. poohpity says:

    The final solution on this blog is to talk about the topic not about people and the standards one sets for them to live up to. That has always been the solution, not only on here but life in general. Other people are not here to live up to our standards that would be putting one’s self in the place of God. Whether they be a pear, apple, grape or an orange. Always keeping one point foremost in our minds “ALL” sin and fall short of the Glory of God.

    If you are for peace and unity then be that peace and unity. Believe in the “Final Solution” look to Him rather than trying to His Holy Spirit to others by convicting them of sin because when the conviction comes from the Holy Spirit, He also offers us “A Final Solution” for it. John 16:8-11 NLT

  232. poohpity says:

    forever, I do not have a problem with you maybe with what is said but not with you personally nor with anyone else on here.

  233. poohpity says:

    With what is said I do not think it is appropriate to refer to a person by the things they do in this case homosexuality and not by their name. Yes I have a problem with that.

  234. poohpity says:

    Then again to refer to him as a black apple, I wonder what color your pear looks like to God.

  235. poohpity says:

    If one believes in Jesus and what He did then we know that God looks at all of us covered in the red blood of His Son and we are white as snow. ALL peoples of this world.

  236. street says:

    thinking of what Jesus accusers said of Him, ” a friend of sinners.” can you have it both ways from an accuser?

  237. street says:

    street, to me if God demanded our adulation and praise it would seem more like a Hitler type of god than the One we have who has given us freedom and free will.

    one who is forgiven little loves little.

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