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Irenaeus and the Word

Irenaeus was a second-century follower of Jesus known for his writings against heresy and for his summary of teachings handed down from the Apostles.

Tutored by the martyr Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna, who in turn was taught by the Apostle John, Irenaeus is important because of the way he used both Old and New Testament writings before they were collected and finalized in the form we now have them.

Interestingly, Irenaeus sounds a lot like many of us today who try to ground our thoughts in the Word of God. There is, however, a difference. While we might use the Word as a synonym for the Bible, Irenaeus repeatedly speaks of the Word as a reference to or about Jesus.

Seems to me that honoring the Scriptures as a witness to the Word, and as a means of our faith— rather than the end, might be a refreshing way to echo an ancient practice.


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188 Responses to “Irenaeus and the Word”

  1. Mart DeHaan says:

    Am copying forward Jeff1’s comment to The Gospel of Matthew from earlier this morning,

    jeff1 says:
    June 4, 2018 at 4:54 am (Edit)
    It is the fact that God relates to us differently because of our strengths and weaknesses that tells us God is all knowing whereas I am limited in knowing and that isn’t through lack of knowledge of the Bible (though I am lacking in knowledge) but because God requires obedience to His will to fulfil His purposes on earth more than He requires us to be more knowledgeable.

    Religions and individuals have used the Bible for their purposes rather than God’s which is why the world has so many interpretations and only the pure of heart have the right interpretation because it takes a person pure of heart to connect with God.

    My motives are what separates me from God as until my motives are pure God will not reveal His will to me and it is because He loves me to much to damage me more than I am.

    My dad knew God’s will better than any other person I knew and I can see now that my dad’s motives were for the greater good of all and not his own personal agenda as He stayed connected to the source and when I have God given righteousness rather than man driven righteousness then I will fulfil God’s purpose on earth and not my own beliefs of what is His purpose.

    God tells us to focus on Jesus for very good reasons because when I don’t and I am speaking from my own failing here I become judgemental and start playing God which was what I did while my dad didn’t but he didn’t try to tell me because he knew I was being judgemental and so God brought me down to earth with a jolt and now I am filled with guilt, because I wasn’t considering others, remorse, because I know the error of my ways, and pity because I am human and I want to find an excuse for my selfishness when it was what it was me playing God rather than following Him.

    God shows me the real me and the truth is I don’t always like what I see because I have to face the reality that without Him there’s nothing much to like.

    Without Him I could do nothing
    Without Him I’d surely fail
    Without Him I would be drifting
    Like a ship without a sail

    Without Him I would be dying
    Without Him I?d be enslaved
    Without Him life would be worthless
    But with Jesus thank God I’m saved

    Oh Jesus, oh Jesus
    Do you know Him today
    Please don’t turn Him away
    Oh Jesus, my Jesus
    Without Him how lost I would be
    Without Him how lost I would be

  2. SFDBWV says:

    Thank you Mart, I hope the message is received and understood…We shall see.

    Steve

  3. poohpity says:

    Yes Mart academia(gaining knowledge) is way different than getting to KNOW someone. I have seen that the bible is only a means to get to know our God which seems to be why Jesus used the scriptures of the OT to point us to Himself through the witness of those who came before us and Jesus knew that only with the help of the Holy Spirit could we put those puzzle pieces together to learn about the Word(Jesus). Luke 24:27 NLT;

    Luke 24: Then he said, “When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. 46 And he said, “Yes, it was written long ago that the Messiah would suffer and die and rise from the dead on the third day. 47 It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem: ‘There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.’ 48 You are witnesses of all these things.

    The words of scripture bring Glory to the Word. John was a witness to the Word and wrote; In the beginning the Word already existed.
    The Word was with God,
    and the Word was God.
    2
    He existed in the beginning with God.
    3
    God created everything through him,
    and nothing was created except through him.
    4
    The Word gave life to everything that was created,
    and his life brought light to everyone……

    10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. 11 He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. 12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. 13 They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.

    14 So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.

    John 16 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. 14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. 15Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you.…

    Irenaeus seemed to use the scriptures to identify heresy and to bring Glory to the One they were written about. Not to boast in academia (knowledge) but as a means of our faith.

  4. poohpity says:

    Steve what exactly are you assuming is the message that Mart is trying to get across? That honoring scripture is a means to get to know God and the Word better through faith not just lessons in academia.

  5. poohpity says:

    Mart’s last paragraph seems to be the reason he wrote this of course I can not read his mind but I can read his words. “Seems to me that honoring the Scriptures as a witness to the Word, and as a means of our faith— rather than the end, might be a refreshing way to echo an ancient practice.”

  6. foreverblessed says:

    Thank you Mart, I didn’t know that!
    A preacher some time ago asked:
    Is it God of the Bible or
    The Bible of God

    And another asked:
    What is the Living Word of God?

    If the Holy Spirit does not breath Jesus’ Life in the written word of the Bible,
    It is just a pain,
    But if our hearts sincerely do seek God, He will open our eyes.
    Because that is what He did to me.

    I was raised in a very Bible based church. Yet, the deep things of God were not understood.
    I know as a child, that I asked questions to God about it.
    I asked: why is there so little preached about Jesus, only in Passover time, ( springtime)
    Why is there so much preaching about Jesus’ second coming?

    What does growing in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ mean?

    But I just went on in the tantrum of church life, and the questions were buried.
    But…. I know for sure that God had heard them, and when the time was right for me to understand the answers, He answered me.

    Bug One thing I know, there can be a lot of Bible reading, and still no personal relation with Jesus.
    I know, because I was one of them.

    Take Jesus out of the bible, and you get so tired spiritually.

  7. Beloved says:

    Beautiful Mart.

  8. poohpity says:

    If one takes Jesus out of the bible then we would have no need for the bible and a remaining hole in our spirit. We would never be aware of how high, wide, deep and long the love of God is for us.

  9. Beloved says:

    It’s easy to argue the words on paper, but the message of Jesus is irrefutable in its essence. Either He Is, or He Is not. Its up to us to decide what we choose to believe.

  10. jeff1 says:

    Thinking of how I was brought up in a Christ focused church and my dad was Christ focused but that did not stop me from wandering and searching this world for answers that I never did find.

    I Have Returned

    I have returned to the God of my childhood,
    to the same simple faith as a child I once knew.
    Like a prodigal son I’ve longed for my loved ones.
    For the comforts of home and the Lord I outgrew.

    I have returned to the God of my childhood,
    Bethlehem’s Babe,
    the Prophet’s Messiah.
    He’s Jesus to me,
    eternal Deity!
    Praise His name,
    I have returned.

    I have returned to the God of my father,
    the most God-like man a child could know.
    Oh I just heard a shout from the angels in glory,
    praising the Lord a child has come home.

    I have returned to the God of my father,
    creator of heaven and earth,
    God of the universe.
    He’s Jesus to me,
    eternal Deity.
    Praise His name,
    I have returned.

    I have returned to the Yahweh of Judah,
    on my knees I did fall
    where the wall now stands.
    This lesson I’ve learned as I’ve worked my way homeward,
    the Saviour of all is the comfort to man.

    I have returned to the Father of Abraham,
    The shepherd of Moses,
    who called Him the great I am.
    He’s Jesus to me,
    eternal Deity.
    Praise His name,
    I have returned.

    I have returned to the God of my Father,
    creator of heaven and earth, God of the universe.
    He’s Jesus to me,
    eternal Deity.
    Praise His name,
    I have returned.

    I have returned!

  11. bubbles says:

    OooOOoo! Mart! Thank you for this interesting lesson.

  12. foreverblessed says:

    Yes, Bubbles, I totally agree.
    And Jeff gives a song, such a deep meaning.
    To turn to Jesus.

    I turned to Jesus, after I had read the Bible, and studied about God, what His Plan was, what He commanded. The ten commandments, the festival’s, the food laws, the prophecies.
    But the life of faith in Jesus I did not find.
    I guess my old church saw the Bible as a law book. What is it that God wants us to do, we ask the Holy Spirit to help us to it. And when we sin we ask Jesus to forgive us.
    But a life of living in faith in Jesus, was nowhere to be seen.

    Till I was exhausted, and cried out to God:
    Sorry God, I missed the point, I want to find Jesus!
    I was just praying, just me and God.
    No church, no Bible reading.
    And there Jesus came to me.
    Very quickly very soft, and soothing.
    And slowly with very few Bible verses, Jesus taught me.
    Only some bible verses, not the bible, as there were too many distractions to me, thou shalt keep the sabbaths, and things like that. That would draw me back into the bible as a law book.

    So this point of looking for Jesus when we read the Bible is a very good one.
    Thanks Mart!
    All though, if someone would have said that to me at the time, I would not have understood it.
    God had to wait till I was exhausted, and would fall down at His feet: help me, even with the Bible, with all Your laws, I am lost.

    And there the life in faith in Jesus started.
    Thanksgiving to God who is do kind, and long-suffering, and patient.

  13. foreverblessed says:

    And oh, Jeff, I want to say again how deeply moving I find the words of that song!

  14. jeff1 says:

    It’s why I love song Forever, because it speaks for me when I cannot speak for myself as I cannot find the words.

    When I sing the words I think of how those who wrote them are connected to the same God I am, kindred spirits and yet we are oceans apart, mindsets apart and sometimes centuries apart but what unites us is God as He draws us to Himself and so the miraculous work of His goes on all around us and speaks to my heart and gives me hope that all will be well because the voices in my head get less when I focus on the lover of my soul, our souls, as it is then that I know that when God says nothing can separate us from the love of God or the fellowship of the Holy Spirit He means ‘nothing’ as what I fail to see in my humanness is to see the power of God as I have had glimpses of it in my life and those glimpses are what keeps me hopeful in my faith as it is God assuring me all will be well and to focus on His goodness and not on the badness going on in the world as He has overcome the world and all there in it.

    Having always been a lover of Elvis’s music this is one of his gospel songs.

    I searched this world for answers but it couldn’t give me what it doesn’t have.

    Where Could I Go But To The Lord

    Living below in this old sinful world
    Hardly a comfort can afford
    Striving alone to face temptation so
    Now won’t you tell me

    Where could I go but to the Lord
    Where could I go oh where could I go
    Seeking the refuge for my soul
    Needing a friend to save me in the end
    Won’t you tell me
    Where could I go but to the Lord

    Life here is grand with friends I love so dear
    Comfort I get from God’s own word
    Yet when I face that chilling hand of death
    Won’t you tell me
    Where could I go but to the Lord

    Where could I go but to the Lord
    Where could I go oh where could I go
    Seeking the refuge for my soul
    Needing a friend to save me in the end
    Won’t you tell me
    Where could I go but to the Lord

  15. jeff1 says:

    I found healing in this hymn which we sung on Sunday at our Holy Communion service.

    Come, Lord, and meet us in this holy hour,
    come, Lord and greet us; come to us in power;
    come with refreshment for the weary soul;
    come, Lord, with healing; make the broken whole.

    Stand then before us as the rite begins;
    cleanse and restore us; free us from our sins,
    and, as we contemplate our foolish ways,
    turn all our sadness into joy and praise.

    Lord, our provider, when the feast is spread,
    furnished with wine and everlasting bread,
    fill us with goodness, strengthen us with grace,
    ever enfold us all in love’s embrace.

    Lord, who invites us now to come and dine;
    speak through the sacrament of bread and wine,
    and, as we celebrate our Saviour’s love,
    fit us for glory in the realms above.

    These words were written for the tune Anima Christi

    Soul of Christ, sanctify me
    Body of Christ, save me
    Blood of Christ, inebriate me
    Water from the side of Christ, wash me
    Passion of Christ, strengthen me
    O good Jesus, hear me
    Within Thy wounds hide me
    Separated from Thee let me never be (“Permit me not to be separated from Thee”)
    From the malicious enemy defend me (“From the malignant enemy defend me”)
    In the hour of my death call me
    And bid me come unto Thee
    That I may praise Thee with Thy saints (“That with Thy Saints I may praise Thee”)
    Forever and ever
    Amen

  16. SFDBWV says:

    In the past week there was a story of a Southern Baptist Seminary President who was ousted from his position and exposed for his disgraceful behavior.

    Following the national story was an editorial in our local newspaper touching on and exposing more of this man’s “improper” comments as a leader of one of the largest Christian organizations in America.

    Often we speak of the cultural destructive power of a predominately liberal attitude in our colleges and universities, but lost in the conversation is a worse offense to God and mankind alike.

    The misuse of the language of the Bible in order to present a skewed view of the “Word” of God in institutions that prepare our next generation of preachers. That are then preached from pulpits and in churches all over the world.

    The American Civil Liberties Union was first organized by communists who believed that the United States couldn’t be overthrown by a military effort, but could be by using its own constitutional language against itself.

    The serpent is still subtle in his offense against God and man.

    The serpent also uses this same “subtle” technique in disrupting the unity and fellowship of Christianity.

    So subtle is he that he uses misguided people within the “Church” to twist and skew the written word of the Bible in a successful campaign to create confusion, doubt and strife. All in order to smear the “Word” of God, Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah.

    Children should never play with guns and certainly not dynamite and immature Christians should not play with the words of Scripture without realizing what they are doing or saying and how destructive the misuse of them are.

    This is where meekness should play its card in a Christian’s life.

    Respect the word and its use of it, and you show respect of the Word and the price paid to present them to you.

    44 this morning before the rising of the sun, now 49 and clear.

    Praying for Maru and her brother.

    Steve

  17. poohpity says:

    It is amazing to me the horrible things people say about the scriptures and going to church when they usually do not do either. It is like justifying or defending why they choose not to.

    Christian song writers usually compose songs from their experiences or testimonies of the impact the Lord has had in their lives that is why we can usually identify with many of their songs. When we look up the song writers and what was happening in their lives when they wrote the songs we see the struggles, trials, sorrows and then the joy found in faith.

    Well the bible is exactly that, testimonies of people’s experiences with God. That is why it is called old or new testament(testimonies). It was written by approximately 40 different people over the span of maybe 4,000 years. They did not compare notes, they wrote about their experiences and their history but it all seemed to fit together.

    In the OT when the law of Moses was read to the people of Israel they turned back to following God(repented). But often it was only short lived then they went back to their old ways. So it would seem that is the thing that Irenaeus could teach from to confront false teaching and heresy which is exactly what Paul wrote to the many churches in his letters, it would seem they both had the same goal in mind. Just as in the harmony of most of the bible they all knew the same God, so when the bible was canonized the books(scrolls or letters) that stayed in one could cross reference from other parts of the bible. It would seem no one can honor something they know not.

  18. narrowpathseeker says:

    Steve!!! WOW! It seems to me that the Lord keeps granting you more and more Wisdom daily. It was firm, forthright but caring and respectful to the Lord as well as to us…… God Bless you!!!

  19. poohpity says:

    This morning as I sat on my back patio a Hummingbird came and hovered about three feet from my face just staring at me for about 15 seconds. I know I had no idea what it was thinking but this is what I thought it was thinking. The gardeners had cut down all the flowers on the bushes it usually drank from so there I sat with a bright colored lilac jammie and it thought I scored big look at the size of that flower. When it realized I was not a flower it took off. That brought a chuckle and a smile for the day. Not by what it thought because only heaven knows what that was but by my own thinking, lol.

  20. poohpity says:

    Look at the painting and look what that guy was holding close to his heart. Irenaeus was taught by the Bishop who was taught by the Apostle John and John was taught by the Good teacher, Jesus and we have a written copy of what the disciples of that time were taught and it has lasted 2000 years. It has stood the test of time and we are privileged to have it today, what an honor.

  21. poohpity says:

    John wrote, “This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who has written them down. And we know that his testimony is true. There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose that not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written.”

  22. jeff1 says:

    Pooh, you cannot be sure that those who criticise have not had bad experiences and I knew men who were gentle and kind in their demeanour and they didn’t go to church but they believed in God and said they felt nearer to him fishing than in church.

    Just because I have had a good experience in my own church does not mean others have and I can remember a man I worked with mentioning how he didn’t go because if you sit in someone who is a regular attender’s seat they will give you a dirty look.

    Is it not good to hear that there is a willingness for people to believe in God even if they don’t feel comfortable in a church or are not into reading their Bible?

    In a world were so many are turning away from God I am pleased to hear that there are many who though they do not worship as I do have still got faith.

    There may be a shift in traditional ways to worship God but how do I know if that matters to God or not!

  23. poohpity says:

    Viv, that is not what I said. I said, “It is amazing to me the horrible things people say about the scriptures and going to church when they usually do not do either. It is like justifying or defending why they choose not to.” Please do not read into or make what I write mean something else other than what I wrote. That is called assuming or jumping to conclusions or bearing false witness. People make all kinds of excuses for things and how does one know but by listening when asked to share their thoughts about it. I care enough to ask and care enough to listen without judgement. There are not many Christians who actually do not go to church however there are people who have a hard time getting along with other people and try to stay away from them because of their own insecurities and problems but blame it on others or make excuses for their actions. They find time to go many other places but not church.

    There is a purpose that we are taught to come together with other believers for worship, praise, learning and prayer and it is to spur each other on to love and good works. Hebrew 10:24-25 NLT

  24. poohpity says:

    Hebrews 10:24-25 NLT

  25. jeff1 says:

    That maybe the intention Pooh but reality is that often people do not get on as belief in God does not change personalities and some people clash and have to be kept apart or their will be conflict rather than harmony and that will chase others from coming to the church.

    We have to accept that our churches are not perfect as our congregations are not perfect and why that may in effect put others of as most people expect a church to be welcoming and free of dispute and as churches are becoming more like businesses in a secular world then they are less like the churches of old and do not have that appeal anymore.

    I have noticed my own church much more noisy and people talking to each other out loud whereas I was used to the peace and quiet of a church and preferred that atmosphere but times have changed and I have to accept that a younger congregation have different ways.

    I think God is much more understanding towards people who have insecurities and problems than people have and possibly why they pray at home to Him instead of going to churches that often seem far removed from peoples difficulties.

    I find that people will take their problems to the Rector first and foremost as they trust Him in His role not to be judgemental as other members might be.

  26. jeff1 says:

    I have a friend who attended different churches but she was very Biblicaly knowledgeable and found fault with them all and so ended up practising her faith from home and teaching her children from the Bible herself.

    I who was not Biblicaly knowledgeble and listened to the preachers and also to my dad who would warn me against false teaching.

    God knows we do not live in an ideal world as He has told us we are not of this world and not to make our home here.

    We put expectations on each other by playing God rather than following Him which He told us not to do and if we focused on Jesus and seen ourselves as servants on this earth then we might just realise that He leads and does so because He is Lord and Saviour of us all and if I stray or my friend strays He will chastise.

    God has brought me down to earth with a great bang when I played God rather than listening to my dad who knew God better than I did and so I know that He won’t allow it and once I realise that I pull in my horns so to speak and start listening to He who should be obeyed.

    A servant is not greater than His Master and that makes us all equal in God’s eyes but sadly and I am speaking from my own experience I too often forget who is Master and make my own rules to follow but God won’t allow it and rightfully so as it is His will and not mine or anyone else’s that He is establishing on earth and the sooner I agree with God that He knows best then the sooner I will find a peace that surpasses understanding.

  27. SFDBWV says:

    Viv you do us all an honor with your comments. Thank you for your faith and sharing it with us.

    Your dad did a great job teaching, leading and loving you.

    Steve

  28. narrowpathseeker says:

    Vivian, there it is again…your genuine, humble, beautiful, honest spirit shining forth to Bless us all!! Thank you.

  29. jeff1 says:

    You are very much like him Steve as I have said before and that is because you both know how to stay connected to the source.

    I believe that in itself is a gift from God as I don’t know too many people who do what is right at the time but rather are more like myself in seeing the error of their ways after the event.

    My dad suffered for his God given righteousness as back in the day in my country those who shared his mindset were being burned at the stake.

    It takes courage to take a stand against prejudices and that is what he did he stood firm in his belief because he knew it was God’s will to do so.

    Why did he see what others didn’t? He stayed close to God’s truth’s and aligned himself with them rather than what the masses were doing which was aligning themselves with cultural truths.

    He didn’t talk of putting God first but instead he actively put God first and so had God given righteousness rather than man driven.

    He taught me that it is my fault if I don’t have God’s truth’s because I blind myself when I fail to put God first in my life.

  30. jeff1 says:

    Narrow, I believe it is me being remorseful for all the times I didn’t put God first and yet I believe He forgives me and I believe He forgives me because I had a dad who was forgiving and my dad’s source of forgiveness came from God as he really did put God first in his life.

  31. poohpity says:

    It seems to be like everything else that some people look at in life they find all the negative things or the reasons not to do something rather than the beneficial elements but it is all just a means to justify not doing something. I do not read the bible or go to church because of what other people think or how they are but because of the love I have for the One who forgave me and continues to do so daily. I desire with all my heart to learn about the vastness of His great love. I want to learn and know how wide, how deep, how long and how high that love is.

    I want my mind, spirit and heart to be transformed out of living as the world teaches because I already knew that oh so well, to what God teaches and I do that by going to church, reading the bible, praying to fill my mind with the things of God not with all the anti-God things that the Prince of this world tries to seduce me towards which include leading me away from the bible, church and prayer then it is Satan who wins just as he did in the garden when he got Adam and Eve to take their eyes off of God.

    I want to walk and talk with God and while bound to this flesh I know there will be many things that try to interfere with that but with hope looking forward to the day when my flesh will no longer be an obstacle in that relationship until then I fill my mind with things that will help my relationship with Him grow.

  32. poohpity says:

    I have to know the Truth, Jesus, before I can identify anything false and I do not mind having help along the way by people who know Him better than I do or that know different things about Him or that see and hear things differently and share their experiences because we are all in process of growing.

    Have you ever heard someone say when they are no longer in a close relationship with someone, “we have grown apart” I do not want that to happen with the Lord so on my part I put time into it by giving myself to Him. Sometimes I feel like I am no longer close to Him but in those times I realize it is me who has walked away, not Him.

  33. foreverblessed says:

    How did that president of the Southern Baptist Church make an affront to the Bible?
    I was looking on internet, and found out about problems with the leader of Willow Creek.
    And this president of SBC.
    Both are about how women are treated by men.

    You can have trouble with the Bible by being too liberal. But the trouble I had with the use of the the Bible was not liberal, but it was fundamentalism.
    And the problem of that SBC president and board was also a fundanentslistic view of how the Bible would see the place of women.

    A few weeks ago Beloved found a post of Mart of 2000, where hevtsljs about the fact that his wife has painstakingly tried to show him how women-unfriendly Bible interpretations of the place of woman is by evangelicals, and ofcourse, by fundamentalists.
    I really found it very touching that Mart apologized. That he said, many men just do not realize this.

    It is so good to view the Bible in the light of his Jesus was, and who He was.

    Jesus came to serve, not to be served.

    And yet, this message is so hard getting through in our Christian life.

    When I was looking for a church, I was looking at the pastor,was he willing to clean the toilets if there was a need.
    And then I saw him helping with putting the chairs in place.
    So yes, a man who was willing to serve!
    Maybe you fi

  34. foreverblessed says:

    Sorry, posted to soon…
    Maybe you find this a bit overdone.
    But women were viewed as a helpmate to men. Women are there to serve, in my old church. That a woman would be a teacher in a college, being an intellect, that was unheard.
    I myself have never thought that God looked at MD like that. I was sure that a woman could go and study, do interesting things, intellectually intriguing, yes, God loves that. Why Paul said:
    I want women to be keepers at home?
    What was he saying there?
    And yet, when I had children I did feel I should stay at home. My own conscience would not allow me leaving them…
    The great positive thing here was that due to the work crisis in the eighties, I was jobless. So I was at home when the children were young.

    But where is Jesus here?
    What would Jesus say to me?
    And is that the same as what the church board says?
    I was reading what the southern baptists “doctrine” was on women. It is pretty much the same as my old church.
    Boy, that is troublesome!
    It is good they have a good look at it. And I find it very precious how Mart’s wife was trying to ” educate” her husband.
    And that he was humble enough to listen!

  35. jeff1 says:

    Woman will always put their children first as it is a maternal instinct to do so and those like myself who worked when the children were small still felt a lot of guilt for doing so.

    It as always been very much a man’s world but I see a younger generation are changing that as working woman now expect their men to share the housework and the looking after the children whereas in my younger days the woman worked, did the housework and mainly looked after the children.

    It is good to see the world is changing towards woman as when I look back to my mum’s day they didn’t have any choices and had to obey their husbands completely.

  36. SFDBWV says:

    Foreverblessed the man I was speaking of is Paige Patterson.

    Some of the story can be found on “Christianity Today Direct Newsletter” The story is found on a May 30 2018 news story and though the story is mostly about women, the accompanying story in my local newspaper gave an even darker history of misinterpretation of Scripture that as I had said had influenced decades of students.

    Hope you find this helpful

    Steve

  37. narrowpathseeker says:

    Yes, Vivian….remorseful too! I believe it is the Lord showing his heart through you at this time. When I encounter genuinely honest, remorseful, caring, and humble people I feel God’s presence….and I am filled with love…

    On the other hand when I encounter deceitful, arrogant, condescending, jealous, unremorseful and overall hateful people I feel like I am in the presence of satan and it ignites my own ugliness and the battle is on. I do not want to spend my last days doing battle with satan so I try to stay clear of such people….I pray for them and myself …otherwise I try to ignore them.. So I am grateful to people like you that have the spirit of God working through them

  38. jeff1 says:

    I understand that very well, Narrow, and I agree some people can bring out the worst in me to and I am getting to old to fight it so I leave it in God’s hands as He is much better at dealing with Satan than I am.

    God is with me through this and He has been with me on so many occasions in my life that I know now that is what He does He comes when I need Him most and I am very bad at the difficulties in life while my dad was very good at the difficulties in life as He was immensely strong in character.

    When someone was in trouble my dad was instinctively there knowing what to do and supporting them. He had the ability to read a situation and people and others would trust his advice.

    Like Steve is with you all, someone you can depend on when you are not sure what to do.

    I am a very hesitant person and need someone to lead me or I feel lost.

    Thank you for your comments, Narrow, it has been an encouragement to me.

  39. foreverblessed says:

    Yes, Steve, I read that Christianity Today!
    It was a very fundamentalistic view of the bible that was the problem. I must have misunderstood your comment, I thought you were worried about a liberal view.
    What I read was this:
    The Baptists churches were afraid of liberalism, and so in the 70 or 80-ies they changed course.
    And lo and behold… what was the change? No women as pastor, a whole statement on what the God-given line of authority is, even mentioning why women are lower: because of the deceivement of Eve.
    Beloved mentioned some time ago, that she was raised like this: women are made for the pleasure of men!
    In that baptist church there is a slight difference: women are made to be the servant of men.
    And all-biblical sound!
    All the bible verses used are there in the bible.
    So that makes it look biblical!

    Eph 6:22-24
    1 Timothy 2:11-15

    That last verse, oops… When things changed in my old church, about the 7th day not to be taken literal. I remember discussing this at church with a man. Suddenly he said:
    O dear, here I am, debating with a woman!

    So the woman professor at the baptist university was fired. They thought it impropriate that the future pastors, their young men, would be tought by a woman.
    And 1 Timothy 2:12 says so.
    It is all biblical!

    Now you see a little how my upbringing with the bible was.
    ” This is what the bible says”
    And that interpretation misses the heart of Christ!

    So I do understand Jeff! What she writes has the heart of Christ.

    And I do like the point of Mart:
    Bring in Jesus,
    Our personal relation with Jesus!

    What is the heart and mind of Jesus.

  40. foreverblessed says:

    Impropriate should be inappropriate, I think. What a weird word if you look at it.
    Sorry guys!

    I must say: living with Jesus, now, more then 20 years, hearing Him personally, I know that when we follow Jesus we give up our old life, we are not concerned about our own ambitions, needs. We have given our lives tot Him, and we trust Him to take care of our lives. We follow Him in where He leads us, serving.

    Serving.

    Jesus came to serve, not to be served!

  41. SFDBWV says:

    In my response to Foreverblessed I used the word misinterpretation of Scripture whereas I think misrepresentation would have been a better word.

    Steve

  42. SFDBWV says:

    Our Lord used things of this world, of our understanding, in order to teach and explain from.

    If a branch doesn’t produce fruit it is of no use to the husbandman (farmer).

    Everything we do everything we say to others has its effect. Its effect can be considered “fruit”.

    The Holy Spirit in us produces the fruit of the Spirit, we don’t, He does.

    But the fruit we produce is from our words and our actions and sometimes it is useful nourishment for the hungry spirits we are interacting with and sometimes it is briars and thorns even poison.

    The fact is we can control the type of fruit we produce by how we talk, treat and yes love others.

    It is one thing for lay people to misrepresent the words of the Bible and in so doing misrepresent Jesus our Lord, but when it is preached from the pulpit, though it has the same damaging result, it is far more reaching and connected to the misunderstanding of having come from authority.

    Our subject Saint Irenaeus had no such text to draw upon and so he preached Jesus and the cross. That should sound familiar to any of us who have read the words of Paul.

    We should always “test” every spirit we come into contact with and in so doing know the truth of what we hear and from what motive it comes.

    Maybe better said, test the fruit to see if it is rotten or ripe, poison or food before we bite into it and take it into our bodies and it become a part of us.

    God provides a protector for us, He is the Holy Spirit. When we hear something contrary to “Truth”, contrary to the “Word” He lets us know right away. The problem is when we push Him aside and go with our own “intellect” instead.

    If unsure pray for answers from the source and He is faithful to give you peace, even if it surpasses understanding.

    36 degrees and clear.

    Steve

  43. jeff1 says:

    I think this song speaks of the absence of God in the world today and how that can be scary and that is why I am glad to belong to a community of believers whose prayers and support gives great comfort to all irrespective of differences.

    We need to be united as ‘united we stand’ ‘divided we fall’ and no one stands alone in their community or in this world.

    I think we need to remember that ‘Jesus Saving Souls’ is what the gospel is about and that means emphasising His love for the lost as well as the found and that can only come about with a change of heart from us in seeing that ‘Saving Soul’s is what ‘Jesus’ suffered and died for.

    Is that “Truth” not the most important one in a world dying for the lack of it.

    Give This World Back To God

    Oh have you looked around
    Have you heard the sound
    Of Mama’s cryin’
    Or do you turn away
    When you see the face
    Of the innocent dyin’
    In these darkest days
    Are you not afraid
    That its too late

    You gotta get down on your knees, believe
    Fold your hands and beg and plead
    Gotta keep on praying
    You gotta cry, rain tears of pain
    Pound the floor and scream His name
    ‘Cause we’re still worth saving
    Can’t go on like this and live like this
    We can’t love like this
    We gotta give this world back to God

    Have you lost a love?
    Do you feel like given up?
    Has your heart been broken?
    Are your kids okay?
    Will they come home safe?
    Do you lie there hoping?
    You can make a wish you can knock on wood
    Oh it won’t do no good

    We gotta get down on our knees believe
    Fold you hands and beg and plead
    Gotta keep on praying
    You gotta cry, rain tears of pain
    Pound the floor and scream His name
    ‘Cause we’re still worth saving
    Can’t go on like this live like this
    We can’t love like this
    We gotta give this world back to God

    You gotta get down on your knees believe
    Fold your hand and beg and plead
    Keep on praying
    You gotta cry, rain tears of pain
    Pound the floor and scream His name
    ‘Cause we’re still worth saving
    Can’t go on like this can’t live like this
    We can’t love like this
    You can hope the best
    Make a wish
    The only answer is

    We give the world back to God
    Oh, give it back

  44. poohpity says:

    If anyone took a little time to read the writings of Irenaeus although he did not have the bible as we have it, he did in fact have scriptures to learn and share from as he stated. His big theme was confronting heresy or false teaching.

    If anyone bothered to read in context the writing’s of Paul about women one would notice the difference in what he wrote to those in places like Rome compared to those from Crete or Ephesus regarding women. In Roman woman held high positions in the church and ministry but those from Crete or Ephesus came from a Matriarchal society where even their gods were woman like Artemis or in Rome, Diana. So Paul was trying to bring a balance where he taught that woman should not rule over men which is what they did in that society.

    He taught that they should mind their own business quietly and not be busybodies or gossips. Much of what Paul wrote trying to get them all to put the Lord as head in their lives men and women alike. Paul had to confront heresy and false teaching as well because there were many gods that people worshiped just like there are today. Putting any person on a pedestal is a form of worshiping them because that is where God should be, just as there are many who teach things other than what is found in scripture, different times but the same issues as there are today.

    That is why any teacher worth anything will tell their congregation to compare what they hear to what is found in scripture. Because many will take advantage of the hearers and their ignorance of what the bible actually says. That is what all the hoopla was about with Martin Luther and the heresy and false teaching of the Roman Catholic church because they did everything they could do to keep the bible out of the hands of the common people. They accused Martin Luther of being a demon too because he confronted them.

  45. poohpity says:

    Studying church history and the history of the bible is very interesting for those who want to learn anything to be able to discuss how awesome our God is and how He has sustained His teaching through many, many generations, so that we will know heresy and false teaching when we hear it.

  46. poohpity says:

    Jesus was also accused of being demon possessed by those who did not like what He said when confronting the religious folks on their empty actions that looked good on the outside but inside their hearts were far from God.

  47. narrowpathseeker says:

    Steve, AMEN …”We should always “test” every spirit we come into contact with and in so doing know the truth of what we hear and from what motive it comes”

    While some evil spirits are so blatantly obvious that even unbelievers can detect them..I believe the Lord exposes them to believers that find it hard to believe that those knowing scripture can choose to serve darkness. Lord have mercy on us ALL.

  48. Beloved says:

    Seems to me that honoring the Scriptures as a witness to the Word, and as a means of our faith— rather than the end, might be a refreshing way to echo an ancient practice.

    Psalms90 v.13 reading this morning echos a hearts desire to see and know God once again, God answered this prayer by sending Jesus the living Word to us to deliver from God’s wrath. I’m thinking the focus of scripture is on the goodness of God in all circumstances, then and today. Agree Mart that our faith should be centered on Jesus who is the Word. And He is always good!

  49. jeff1 says:

    With so much false teaching in the world I have learned to trust God rather than on my own understanding.

    Its still in God’s hands and why we are told to trust His ways always as He knows the way home and how to get us there.

    I have given myself unnecessary anguish in the past by running ahead of God when my place is to follow and He will reveal the way.

    Then I have peace of mind that with Him leading I cannot stray.

    Jesus, Hold My Hand

    As I travel through this pilgrim land
    There is a friend who walks with me
    Lead me safely through the sinking sand
    It is the Christ at Calvary.

    This would be my prayer Lord each day
    To help me do the best I can
    For I need Thy light to guide me day and night
    Blessed Jesus hold my hand.

    Jesus hold my hand
    I need Thee every hour
    Through this pilgrim land
    Protect me by Thy power.

    Hear my feeble plea
    O Lord look down on me
    When I kneel in pray I hope to meet you there
    Blessed Jesus hold my hand.

    Let me travel in the light divine
    That I may see the blessed way
    Keep me that I may be wholly Thine
    And sing redemption’s song some day

    I will be a soldier brave and true
    And ever firmly take a stand
    As I onward go and daily meet the foe
    Blessed Jesus hold my hand.

    Jesus hold my hand
    I need Thee every hour
    Through this pilgrim land
    Protect me by Thy power.

    Hear my feeble plea.
    And O Lord look down on me
    When I kneel in prayer I hope to meet you there
    Blessed Jesus hold my hand.

    When I kneel in prayer I hope to meet you there
    Blessed Jesus hold my hand….

  50. foreverblessed says:

    I was thinking, it is very well possible tot be Christ- minded, and humble, and still have misunderstanding of some part of the bible!

    Like Mart, who said in 2000, ( Beloved can you find that topic again for me?) that he wasn’t aware that how man, pastors viewed the bible on the position of women was denigrating for women.

    All I want to say is, that we make mistakes, and as long as wee are sincere seekers of the truth, God will correct us.

    ( As I had a wrong view on the sabbath, and God lovingly corrected me.)

    What I shouldn’t do is now saying to others:
    This is what is meant by the sabbath.

    Or: don’t you see what the bible says. It is so clear, if you would only take the time and study it for yourself.

    Sorry guys, that is off my back.
    Dont take it personally…
    :-)

  51. SFDBWV says:

    Foreverblessed only recently a very good Bible teacher, Chuck Missler, passed away. He had a by-word he always added to his statements concerning Scripture; “Don’t take my word for it, look it up and study it for yourself.”

    I think that any time Scripture is presented from anyone, it should come with that same “disclaimer”.

    With regards to our subject I am reminded that our original US Constitution can be fit into a small booklet, but now it takes a library to hold all of the interpretations of it.

    It would seem to me that our earliest Disciples had the advantage of only needing to present Jesus, His death and resurrection in order to change the whole world.

    Only had a minute between things, but stopped by to see how things were going on BTA.

    Steve

  52. poohpity says:

    The first followers of Jesus had those who were interested in ALL that Jesus taught and today there are still those who’s heart’s desire is to learn what Jesus taught. Think of it who would be the one that would not want anyone to hear the teachings of the Good Teacher? It would be those who are anti Jesus because those for Jesus want to learn all they can about Him.

    Steve FYI the Constitution still comes in a very small book and there is no comparison to what the bible holds not even on the same plain.

  53. poohpity says:

    Chuck Missler was a good example of false teaching. He was into Quantum Mysticism, Cryptic Bible Codes, and Nephilim False Eschatology. He has also been caught on more than one occasion in plagiarism.

    This is an article from Berean Research who was asked to do some research into his teachings.

    The Merging of Muddy Waters

    For the past few years, we have documented the ever-mystical leanings of notable Bible teacher and author, Chuck Missler, ultimately listing him among a group of evangelical teachers we’ve dubbed ‘Postmodern Prophecy Paradigm’ (PPP) leaders, because of their gravitation away from sound truth revealed in Scripture alone, coupled with their feverish efforts to re-fashion end-times prophecy to fit their extra-biblical speculations. We have written extensively and in detail of these seductive, morphing departures from the Word of God. The end result has been a toxic mixture of truth and error—leading away from Christ and headlong into the occult.

  54. poohpity says:

    He tricked people who were searching to have themselves or someone they loved to get a healing so they fell for His mysticism. He made lots of money off them.

  55. Beloved says:

    My own experience here…. someone gave me a book of his several years ago and I could not make head nor tails of it as it was so scripturally off base.

    Forever the article is called An Argument. It is soooo good!

  56. jeff1 says:

    Forever, that is where I went so badly wrong thinking I was a sincere seeker of the truth because I confused my religious and cultural beliefs with God’s truths.

    To be human is to error as I discovered the hard way. When God says you have to put Him first then that is what He means as there is nothing will blind me like my religious or cultural beliefs because I have grown up with them and have been indoctrinated into believing I have the truth when no one has all the truth and so God has a sense of humour when it comes to teaching His children lessons in life.

    God’s truths are very different to religious and world truths and I know this because of my dad. I have spent more of my life in the dark than I have in the light through ignorance of God and that is because I thought I knew best whereas my dad focused on the fact that God knew best.

    My dad was far sighted and that is because his expectations were right from the beginning in that he believed suffering was part of this life as a follower of Christ and therefor he never questioned it but trusted God to be with him through it.

    When I have the right expectations then I don’t blame God and stay grounded in the truth of the gospel which is keeping you faith simple and effective to my way of thinking anyway.

  57. Beloved says:

    Sorry Steve I don’t want to say negative things about Chuck as I’m sure Nancy is missing him terribly. LORD bless his family and friends with your great comfort. I know God will not hold his sins against him at the judgement. Because God’s Word is Truth. Grace is Grace and mercy remains ever merciful.

  58. SFDBWV says:

    Joyce, Chuck was preceded in death by Nancy and his two sons.

    I am sure as a Christian Chuck’s sins are forgiven him just as they are for any of us. Even the ones who have judged him unjustly, unfairly, and ignorantly.

    Steve

  59. Beloved says:

    Yes thanks Steve I just looked at his obit.

  60. Beloved says:

    Steve my statement was a critique, not judgement or fairness. Jesus interprets His words correctly and without anything added, as some do. Sometimes the simplicity of the Gospel is overlooked as things are added to it but there’s nothing about fairness being a part of the equation, to my way of thinking. I mentioned the other day that James warned in chapter 3 that those who teach will be judged more severely. It comes with the territory it seems to me.

  61. Beloved says:

    I’ve heard of extrabiblical words as being called the ‘deeper’ things of God. I’ve learned to be careful of what I add to scripture. No matter how superspiritual it sounds. Part of my journey!

  62. poohpity says:

    Being that scriptures are a witness to the Word(Jesus) we are taught in Luke 11:28 NLT; Romans 10:18-19. I read a quote today that fits so well with that from R. Albert Mohlin Jr; “Our responsibility is to get God’s word to their ears only God can get the word from their ears to their heart.”

  63. poohpity says:

    oops that was Romans 10:17-18

  64. Beloved says:

    Pooh I just tried posting (didn’t work) some thoughts on contextualization and the importance of being able to share the Gospel in ways that can be understood in a particular culture, in reference to Missler.
    What I was reminded of by the LORD was that He uses many different ways to reach people. As your scripture reference in Romans says it’s by faith we are saved and nothing else. I think faith is a gift and a Grace from God. It cuts across cultural differences and nuances. Faith comes from Jesus, the Word of God.

  65. foreverblessed says:

    That article from Mart, argument, is soooo good.
    Thanks for finding it Beloved, and sharing it.
    That article is so soothing to me!

    I am so deeply convinced that the bible are written words.
    If they are not being made alive through the Holy Spirit, then you can get anything out of it.
    And as we are all in the process of being formed in the likeness of Jesus, we probably will all have many wrong views of scriptures in the bible.

    But the interpretation of men and women,
    as biblically sound instruction, was hurting to me too, in my youth up bringing in church. I always felt a deep pain, something aching deep inside, when marriage was the sermon.

    And now this article of Mart, so calming…
    so soothing…
    What I felt there and then, was ok!

    And I find Di, the wife of Mart courageuos! That she painstakingly kept on, pressing on to try and open up pastor’s eyes to change their instruction on marriage!

    Oh, what a glorious day for me!
    But I am praying for the southern baptists, they are still in the process. I read that women there pointed out how often the male instruction is denigrating for women, the way it was portrayed that Eve was build, Gen 2:22.

    18 years ago was that article!!!

    And Jesus and the Church, man and wife is a mystery,
    “This is a profound mystery”

    Eph 5:32

  66. foreverblessed says:

    Di, Mart’s wife, was saying to him:
    Do not use coercion to make a wife submit to her husband.
    The submission must be freely given…
    ( And probably in response to a great love shown by the man)

    Coercion: in making other christians see certain interpretation of Bible verses in how I see them.

    That coercion!
    Or rather non-coercion

    That’s how Jesus treats us!

    So in representing the Gospel, neither should we use coercion.

    Jesus is freely accepted by a soul who’s eyes are opened to the fact they are lost.

    Seeing Jesus as a Saviour is a mystery, only possible through the Holy Spirit, Who opens eyes.

    And there I see my part: intercessory prayer.

  67. SFDBWV says:

    There comes a time in everyone’s existence when we will stand before Christ and He will say to us “I gave you life, what did you do with it?

    Personally I think the way we treat others counts more than anything else, but for someone to trash the life work of another whose pursuit was to learn all they could about God and what it means to be Christian, while they themselves have done nothing but criticize the efforts of others won’t carry much weight with God.

    The parable of the man who did nothing with his masters gold but bury it instead of investing it comes to mind.

    Repent while there is still time and see if you even know how to make atonement for the slander/bearing false witness of a good man.

    Be careful what you say about others out of ignorance, envy and malice. There is a price.

    Steve

  68. poohpity says:

    I agree Steve, how we treat others is very significant and shows our relationship with God. But it isn’t by how we treat those who agree with us, or return the love and care we show but by those who do not agree with us or who do not return love and care now that shows who we belong to as Jesus taught in Luke 6:32-33 NLT.

    Just as Irenaeus and Paul as well as many others did by confronting false teaching and heresy they were showing love not only for God first of all but to those who would follow such people. Those false teachers are who Jesus talked about when He said, “”Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves.” That was also a problem we read about in the times of the Kings of Israel as Jeremiah also confronted, “This is what the LORD of Hosts says: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They are filling you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD.” That is what heresy and false teachers do, they fill the minds of those listening with false hopes. Playing on the desperation of those who come to them and using them for their own gains is what all the bewares that are found in scripture seem to be about.(2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:1; 2 Tim 4:3-4; Col 2:8 NLT)

  69. poohpity says:

    The bible has been used for all kinds of oppression, slavery and to justify all kinds of horrible behaviors. What happened in the garden is just one such time when men use it against woman. They fail to see that Adam was right there next to Eve when she ate from the tree. He could have stopped her but they both were of the same thinking that they wanted to be like God, pride, rather than the honor that is only due to God.

  70. poohpity says:

    But the bible can also be a means to grasp how 4 dimensional the love of God is for us.

    Eph 4: Then we will no longer be immature like children. We won’t be tossed and blown about by every wind of new teaching. We will not be influenced when people try to trick us with lies so clever they sound like the truth. 15 Instead, we will speak the truth in love, growing in every way more and more like Christ, who is the head of his body, the church. 16 He makes the whole body fit together perfectly. As each part does its own special work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body is healthy and growing and full of love.

    Eph 3: 14 When I think of all this, I fall to my knees and pray to the Father,[e] 15 the Creator of everything in heaven and on earth. 16 I pray that from his glorious, unlimited resources he will empower you with inner strength through his Spirit. 17 Then Christ will make his home in your hearts as you trust in him. Your roots will grow down into God’s love and keep you strong. 18 And may you have the power to understand, as all God’s people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is. 19 May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.

  71. poohpity says:

    forever, I can not tell you how many woman I have listened to that live with a controlling mate in the church. They can not share what they really think if it is different than their spouse because they do not want to ruffle any feathers so they remain quiet and have the feeling of oppression. But they say it is better than rocking the boat so the whole person they are has to stifled. That is not loving someone when they have to give up who they are to boost the ego of the spouse. That not only happens with women but men as well.

  72. poohpity says:

    Those people whether male or female often go behind the back of their mate to share their true feelings and thoughts. How good of a friendship or foundation of marriage can one have when they can not be honest and real??

  73. Beloved says:

    Forever I agree wholeheartedly. Yesterday I was thinking of context and remembering how Jesus and Paul, both Jews themselves, were speaking to a Jewish culture then, far different from the gentile cultures today and then. Remember how Peter struggled with what to eat, trying to obey Jewish custom? And circumcision also?

    I mentioned the Christian fellow from Palestine at college before, he made his American girlfriend walk 2 paces behind him as was his custom. One Prof said to me she was going to have a talk with him as in the Bible the woman was not meant to be subservient to the man. I knew many then and still know some who feel that way. The church we attended then did not allow this Prof to teach, but her husband (also a Prof) liked that church so she submitted to their customs for Jesus’ sake. She taught the writings of Jesus to freshmen. There’s a lot of give and take in relationships but our supreme example and first love should always be Jesus, the Word made flesh. As you know well!

  74. Beloved says:

    Jesus obeyed God and even though being God in flesh submitted for the good of all. In all things– injury, insult, abuse, mistreatment –God I believe is working for good behind the scenes. Not to condone these things but to work out His purposes. In the case of my Prof it was only her pride that was hurt, a faithful wounding by her friend Jesus. And an example to us, her students.

  75. Beloved says:

    Honoring the scriptures as a means to our faith and not an end…
    Love does not demand it’s own way. I Corinthians13

  76. Beloved says:

    Pooh I just read a testimony on the Berean Research site that very much echoes my own past and where I am at now in my faith walk called Leaving The NAR: Max’s Story. This little bunny trail through Missler has ended for me right back at the topic of Jesus, the Word, with eyes on Him always being key. Thanks for the reference.

    Steve i watched Missler on YouTube. A brilliant man he was.

  77. poohpity says:

    How is talking about false teaching going off on a bunny trail? Isn’t that what our topic is about?

  78. Beloved says:

    I thought the topic to be about Jesus, the living Word of scripture. Not the background of Irenaeus. I’d rather focus on what we know now as contained within the canon of scripture. As Mart said we can all agree on Jesus. Arguing about heresay is time wasting. My apologies to all.

  79. poohpity says:

    oh my

  80. SFDBWV says:

    Understanding the track from John to Irenaeus it is easy for me to see why Irenaeus spoke of Jesus as the “Word”.

    First of all it is written that God “spoke” everything into existence by and through His Son.

    In John 1:1 KJV we see that the “Word” and God are the same.

    John must have explained this clearly to Polycarp who in turn taught it to Irenaeus.

    It is interesting that such a definition is attributed to Christ, as being “The” “Word”.

    What comes to mind is such things as “the last word”, “the final word”, perhaps even “the only true words”, “the only words worth listening to”.

    However when looking at the Concordance the Greek explanation for the use of “Word” in John 1:1 it is explained as being the “Lord”. In the Hebrew text as used in Genesis “Word” has a large list of possibilities, however when you use them as being the Lord the text takes on a whole new understanding.

    In Genesis 15:1 KJV the Word came to Abraham in a vision. Used to mean our Lord instead of some notification here the Word says He is Abraham’s shield and his exceeding great reward.

    Used all throughout the OT “Word” becomes another word for God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

    Start over and read from Genesis on and look at the use of “Word” and you may see the story in a very different light.

    57 degrees and cloudy this morning.

    Steve

  81. foreverblessed says:

    Yes, Steve, what I have learned is that after the Reformation, which was good, that the bible, the written word was made too holy. God is bigger than the written word.
    The bible is not higher in rank than God Himself is.
    Holy Bible.
    God is Holy.
    Like the holy Sabbath.
    Jesus is the Sabbath, Jesus is holy.

    Making the written word holy is dangerous.
    The Living Word is the Word.

    We in the protestant church have made the written word the Word.

    The way I write this is not deplomatic, ( is that an English word?) Full of diplomacy.
    It is straight in the face for those who see the written word as holy.

    God’s Spirit is needed to breathe life into it.

    I have read in the Gospel,
    The kingdom of God
    The violant take hold of it

    20 years ago, I heard an explanation that the violent are the Christians that make great effort to take hold of the kingdom.
    And I thought, well that’s not the meaning.

    But… I wanted to know what the Sabbath command meant to me know. And I really made great effort in asking God the meaning of that 4th command. And Bible studying, and looking up Bible commentaries, and praying about it.
    It was as if my life depended on it. That’s how energetically I searched for the answer.
    So indeed, I was violent.

    When I live in faith in Jesus, I rest from my own work, not just one day a week, but all days of the week.
    So not one day in the week is holy to me, but all my days.
    Hebrews 4:10

    There is not a time that is not holy, unless I step out and live without Jesus.

    The Living Word.

  82. foreverblessed says:

    Matthew 11:12(KJV)
    From the days of John the Baptist until now,
    the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing,
    and forceful men lay hold of it

  83. SFDBWV says:

    Foreverblessed I am in full agreement with you. I also had to smile when you ask about being diplomatic as a few years ago the subject came up here and I stood out in opposition to diplomacy replacing honesty.

    If we can see that the Bible, while being inspired writing, is a story about God and His creation. It is a story about our Lord Jesus from cover to cover, from Genesis to Revelation.

    From it we learn why we are here and why we are here is still about Jesus, not about us. We learn of the character of Jesus and what He wants of us.

    I am not going to get into the argument of whether or not the separation of the Protestant church from the Roman Catholic was a good thing or not, but what I am going to say is that we as a Body of Christ should not be divided but rather united in our faith and devotion to projecting Christ to the world.

    Our divisions sadly come in large part as how we interpret the written word, somehow in the process forgetting who it is the written word is all about.

    Hope you have had a good day as ours is just beginning.

    Steve

  84. poohpity says:

    oh my! Jesus asked repeatedly, “Who do you say I am?” or “Who do they say I am?”. Jesus said, “I and the Father are One”. Another time Jesus said, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”. One God in the form of three persons God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, three in One. As was said by Moses. “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One.”.

    It was good that Jesus left to be with Father because only then could the Holy Spirit be given to us and in us, so that we can understand with His help be our guide to all truths(John 2:22; John 12:16; John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:13; Acts 1:4; 1 Cor 2:10) . God is Spirit and therefore could manifest Himself in many forms as seen by Abraham, Jacob and Nebuchadnezzar(John 4: 23-24). But until Jesus who was born of a woman and the Holy Spirit there was no one like Him.

  85. poohpity says:

    After reading some of what Irenaeus wrote he had separate manuscripts not put together like our bible today but the writers of the Gospels which he referred to as Books. The book of Matthew, the book of Mark you get the picture which were all written in the first century and Irenaeus lived in the 2nd and 3rd century and those writings or manuscripts as well as Paul’s, John’s, etc. letters were passed around to all churches but without the help of the Holy Spirit they would have been just words.

    Jesus on the road to Emmaus “And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.” Luke 24

  86. poohpity says:

    So “The Word” was revealed through the word. Jesus taught about Himself from the OT writings. The word(scriptures) are not to be worshiped but God is as The Word the source of the written word.

  87. jeff1 says:

    When I hear common people quoting the Bible to support their beliefs and not the gospel of Christ and preachers sermons focused on hell and peoples sins, I, ‘Thank God’ that He does not change and it is His will and His Kingdom that will be established on earth.

    The revelations today of sexual abuse against men and woman when in their childhood, woman being told their place has been around longer than I have as my mother was telling me of such things when I was just a child.

    These are just the ones that have come to light but my mother spoke of woman burying children in my grandmothers day because of the difficulties a woman faced when she found her self with child and no husband and they suffered persecution i.e. both physical and verbal abuse and my mothers and my grandmothers state of mind speak of how it affected their lives.

    There is never any mention of the men who left them in these circumstances as it is a man’s world when it comes to seeing woman as promiscuous when she has sexual relations outside marriage whereas the man can walk away as he is not left carrying the baby.

    I can trust God as judge because He is merciful and just and when I look at this world today I see that is what this world needs.

  88. street says:

    “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
    John 6:63

    the words that were spoken have been preserved in text and are still just as powerful today as then. the word without the Spirit is just as dangerous as it was in the hands of the scribes and pharisees.

    empty then new life. good soil? i noticed a cross was involved each day. seems to me many chose others to carry their cross. some how instead of insisting others change, turning our concerns and worries over the Jesus and waiting for His reply. i noticed abraham had to wait too. then it changed from waiting to obedience, seems abraham knew God very well. i am still intrigued with Jesus statement to the twelve you give them something to eat. i am back from 10 days in texas. no keyboard and little wifi unless i went to mcdonalds. hope to catch up in a few days.

  89. jeff1 says:

    From Sunday morning reflections.

    How deep the Fathers love for us
    How vast beyond all measure
    That He would give His only Son
    To make a wretch His treasure

    How great the pain of searing loss
    The Father turns His face away
    As wounds which mar the chosen One
    Bring many sons to glory

    Behold the Man upon a cross
    My guilt upon His shoulders
    Ashamed, I hear my mocking voice
    Call out among the scoffers

    It was my sin that held Him there
    Until it was accomplished
    His dying breath has brought me life
    I know that it is finished

    I will not boast in anything
    No gifts, no powr’s, no wisdom
    But I will boast in Jesus Christ
    His death and ressurection

    Why should I gain from His reward?
    I cannot give an answer
    But this I know with all my heart
    His wounds have paid my ransom

  90. foreverblessed says:

    Such deep deep deep profound meaning!!!

    And good to hear from you Street, may God bless you!

  91. poohpity says:

    The ancient practice of sharing the words of God as Irenaeus did to point people to Christ has been the mission of believers along with gifts of service since the start of the church. We were directed to go into all the world making disciples(students) teaching all that Jesus taught(Good News), not what we think or our opinion but what Jesus taught and baptizing them. Matt 28:18-20; “18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

    Peter said, “10 Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. 11 If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.”

    Both of those commands takes knowing the very words of God before we can share or teach them. Sadly many try without knowing them their selves so that would mean one is pointing people to themselves not to Jesus. Sharing the teachings of the Word by the very words He gave us with the help of the Holy Spirit equips the Saints for life, service and to bring honor and glory to our mighty God.

  92. poohpity says:

    Thank God for those like Paul and Irenaeus that confront false teaching and heresy because those things do not bring Glory to God but to the person who is teaching it which seems to be their objective anyway.

  93. poohpity says:

    Please join with me in prayer for the peace talks with the leader of North Korea.

  94. street says:

    Seems to me that honoring the Scriptures as a witness to the Word, and as a means of our faith— rather than the end, might be a refreshing way to echo an ancient practice.

    honoring the Scriptures/Word of God as a living person, not dead, but alive and still speaking. thinking of the relationship between the Word and the Spirit. Both alive and One. yet Two of the Trinity. thinking of Jesus emptying Himself to do the Fathers will. the Holy Spirit only testifying on Jesus behalf/not His own. Emanuel, God with us. working to complete the work that began so long ago. redemption continues, yet complete in God’s view. waiting and watching.

  95. narrowpathseeker says:

    Street…I have long remembered(vaguely)that Jesus “emptied” Himself. I tried to find the scripture and looked up “empty” in Strongs Exhaustive Concordance and it isn’t there!! That is one of the things I was referring to last week when I said I remember scripture that doesn’t exist and forget much that is.. I have often thought of the correlation between the character flaw of being full of herself/himself/myself and Jesus showing us to EMPTY OURSELVES…yet I can’t find the scripture and I wondered how that got into my head!! So please Street…can you direct me to the scripture that says that Jesus emptied Himself?… Thank you….Pearl

  96. SFDBWV says:

    Good morning Pearl, I am sure if possible Street will deliver. I just wanted to interject a similar problem I have with usage and memory whereas Scripture is concerned.

    Years ago I received a “Tyndale Living Bible” from my wife. It greatly opened my eyes and heart to Bible study and I still to this day use it. It was a “paraphrased” edition and as a new translation offered alternatives to the King James language.

    I love that Bible and am not casting dispersion on it, however certain words and phrases from it burned themselves into my memory and as a result when I am trying to put something together Scripturally there is a difference in word usage between the new translation in my memory and what the Concordance has from the King James.

    Today I use three Bibles for my study and references, “The King James Bible”, “The Living Bible”, and “The New American Bible for Catholics”.

    For me quoting chapter and verse is less important than absorbing the meaning behind the Scripture. I find that my peace is made perfect in that way as trying to “prove” something to someone by quoting Scripture produces little or no peace, unless they are ready willing and open to “instruction”.

    Just some of my morning thoughts as to your reported problem.

    56 cool and wet from overnight rains.

    Steve

  97. jeff1 says:

    Just checking if I am posting as having difficulties.

  98. jeff1 says:

    When my head is all over the place I find peace in knowing Jesus will not forsake me as the turmoil in my head cannot change that truth and so I can rest easy on His promises.

    In my wrestling and in my doubts
    In my failures You won’t walk out
    Your great love will lead me through
    You are the peace in my troubled sea, oh oh
    You are the peace in my troubled sea

    In the silence, You won’t let go
    In the questions, Your truth will hold
    Your great love will lead me through
    You are the peace in my troubled sea, oh oh
    You are the peace in my troubled sea

    My Lighthouse, my lighthouse
    Shining in the darkness, I will follow You
    My Lighthouse, my lighthouse (oh oh)
    I will trust the promise,
    You can carry me safe to shore (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
    Safe to shore (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
    Safe to shore (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
    Safe to shore

    I won’t fear what tomorrow brings
    With each morning I’ll rise and sing
    My God’s love will lead me through
    You are the peace in my troubled sea, oh oh
    You are the peace in my troubled sea, oh oh

    You are my light
    My Lighthouse, my lighthouse (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
    Shining in the darkness, I will follow You (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
    My Lighthouse, my lighthouse (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
    I will trust the promise,
    You will carry me safe to shore (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
    Safe to shore (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
    Safe to shore (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
    Safe to shore

    Fire before us, You’re the brightest
    You will lead us through the storms

    Fire before us, You’re the brightest
    You will lead us through the storms

    Fire before us, You’re the brightest
    You will lead us through the storms

    Fire before us, You’re the brightest
    You will lead us through the storms

    My Lighthouse, my lighthouse (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
    Shining in the darkness, I will follow You (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
    My Lighthouse, my lighthouse (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
    I will trust the promise,
    You will carry me safe to shore (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
    Safe to shore (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
    Safe to shore (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
    Safe to shore

  99. poohpity says:

    Philippians 2: …6Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to cling to, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross.…

    That was the attitude of Christ. In our case we are asked to die to self.

  100. poohpity says:

    If one will just put the thought or verse you are looking for in the google search bar it will direct you to a place called biblehub dot com and that will give you the verse or thought in many different bible translations. With my memory like it is now I use that everyday for the address of the scripture. I know the scripture but I do not know it’s location so it is a very handy tool.

  101. narrowpathseeker says:

    Thank you Steve! I think you are most likely right about the study bible!! I also have several different bibles in my little personal sanctuary along with the devotionals and other “tool” books.. Being that no form of “empty” whatsoever was given in the exhaustive concordance it really bothered me as to why I had that in my head.. Whenever I encountered someone quite transparently “full of themselves” I always thought of Jesus “emptying Himself” to serve as an example of what we or anyone else should do when we become aware of our condition.

    I am hoping now to find the scripture that relates to that act with an apparent synonym for empty, Again thank you Steve… once again…you have made my day.. maybe I am not losing my mind…but if I am, you made it less scary for me…lol

  102. poohpity says:

    narrow, If you were not so prejudice, hate filled or biased against me even though I have never lied or lead you astray as some have, I offered you the scripture and how to find things like that in the future but it is completely ignored. So continue to let your idol Steve guide you. ” And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

  103. Beloved says:

    street says:
    June 9, 2018 at 8:37 pm
    “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
    John 6:63

    Reading this morning in 1 Corinthians 15:45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 49. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

  104. poohpity says:

    I Sent You a Rowboat

    A very religious man was once caught in rising floodwaters. He climbed onto the roof of his house and trusted God to rescue him. A neighbour came by in a canoe and said, “The waters will soon be above your house. Hop in and we’ll paddle to safety.”

    “No thanks” replied the religious man. “I’ve prayed to God and I’m sure he will save me”

    A short time later the police came by in a boat. “The waters will soon be above your house. Hop in and we’ll take you to safety.”

    “No thanks” replied the religious man. “I’ve prayed to God and I’m sure he will save me”

    A little time later a rescue services helicopter hovered overhead, let down a rope ladder and said. “The waters will soon be above your house. Climb the ladder and we’ll fly you to safety.”

    “No thanks” replied the religious man. “I’ve prayed to God and I’m sure he will save me”

    All this time the floodwaters continued to rise, until soon they reached above the roof and the religious man drowned. When he arrived at heaven he demanded an audience with God. Ushered into God’s throne room he said, “Lord, why am I here in heaven? I prayed for you to save me, I trusted you to save me from that flood.”

    “Yes you did my child” replied the Lord. “And I sent you a canoe, a boat and a helicopter. But you never got in.”

    Source: unknown.

  105. Beloved says:

    Pearl when scripture (Philippians) talks about Jesus emptying Himself He gave up his omniscience, omnipresence, and became as us, finite and perishable. Thinking what all Jesus left behind to become sin for us is really intense for me. “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us”. (John)

    Thank you for that question.

  106. street says:

    couple of thoughts about empty. thinking of ruth who went away full and came back empty. the other thought is about God holding out His hand all day long to israel. thinking they were holding on to something else and incapable of receiving from God. dead in sin comes to mind. i thank God for His Grace and mercy He has given too me in Christ Jesus. i did not deserve it. yet i still live in flesh and blood with the influence of lust coveting and envy. it’s is an interesting place to be. self control, not under their influence. abiding in Christ’s love grace and mercy is the only place of life. to delight in life is the only way forward.

    you were right poo with the Scripture reference of being empty. i remind you to boast in Christ not in self. we have nothing else to boast in. paul is a good one to look closely at when it comes to speaking about self. he was very gifted in disarming his opponents words. love on a cross disarmed death.

  107. jeff1 says:

    Immortal, invisible, God only wise,
    In light inaccessible hid from our eyes,
    Most blessed, most glorious, the Ancient of Days,
    Almighty, victorious, Thy great name we praise.

    Unresting, unhasting, and silent as light,
    Nor wanting, nor wasting, Thou rulest in might;
    Thy justice, like mountains, high soaring above
    Thy clouds, which are fountains of goodness and love.

    To all, life Thou givest, to both great and small;
    In all life Thou livest, the true life of all;
    We blossom and flourish as leaves on the tree,
    And wither and perish– but not changeth Thee.

    Great Father of glory, pure Father of light,
    Thine angels adore Thee, all veiling their sight;
    Of all Thy rich graces this grace, Lord, impart
    Take the veil from our faces, the vile from our heart.

    All laud we would render; O help us to see
    ‘Tis only the splendor of light hideth Thee,
    And so let Thy glory, almighty, impart,
    Through Christ in His story, Thy Christ to the heart.

  108. street says:

    Seems to me that honoring the Scriptures as a witness to the Word, and as a means of our faith— rather than the end, might be a refreshing way to echo an ancient practice.

    thinking again about the relationship of the Word and the Spirit. the scribes and pharisees had the Word/law but not the Spirit. i am reminded of the Spirit coming on the High Priest and he saying it is better for One to die then the whole Nation be destroyed. the law became a stumbling block. Jesus spoke of their hearts being far from Him. it was not till Pentecost that the Spirit was given freely and remains with the Saints. the transformation is a work of God not man, yet they are in joyful unity and perfection when done. paul spoke of not being done, but looking forward to it. yet we see God working with this special instrument for the gentiles, abiding with God in incredible circumstance and difficulties. following his Lord to the end, delighting in His grace and mercy all the way, even the law. delighting in sin is breaking the law, we really do need new hearts and new Spirit. Jesus said, “come to Me and I will give you rest.” His yoke is better than the old one.

    thinking of the performance based life. always ending in disaster and loss. the yoke of love and faithfulness given freely by God even Holiness and Righteousness by faith, not works. Grace in a wilderness. sometimes i get down from all the corruption that touches everything. yet i sometimes forget that God is Sovereign and has not lost touch with His Creation. an easy and light yoke is easy to lose touch with in flesh and blood.

  109. poohpity says:

    street as for your comment of 10:36am I was not boasting in anything other than Christ and references to honoring His word(scripture) as a witness to the Word (Jesus). If I ever thought someone was following me rather than God I would cringe in disgust because my goal is to point people to worship and praise our Lord and Savior. I am only a sinner and messenger saved by His amazing grace a mere human being and do not live for the praise of people nor am I deserving of it.

    You are right Peter as well as Paul and Barnabas when people worshiped them or tried to put them on a pedestal they immediately directed the people to focus back to the Lord.(Acts 10:25-26 NLT; 1 Cor 4:6 NLT)

  110. poohpity says:

    So when I told narrow that coming from me causes her to ignore maybe the lessons God may be teaching her. I felt horrible and then prayed about it and it just so happened that in my devotions today I read John 15:18-19 NLT which brought me much comfort from the Lord.

  111. street says:

    dear poo i like paul am perplexed about you, like paul was with the corinthians. i do know this though, the ones who have been forgiven more love more. they also see danger sooner than others unless they are walking in fear. paul took much comfort in knowing the work, begun by God in the corinthians, would be completed. it was a drama to see it played out for God’s glory, yet still waiting. it really is a Great thing that God has done.

  112. street says:

    1 Many people have set out to write accounts about the events that have been fulfilled among us. 2 They used the eyewitness reports circulating among us from the early disciples. 3 Having carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I also have decided to write an accurate account for you, most honorable Theophilus, 4 so you can be certain of the truth of everything you were taught.

    thinking of these accounts like a stain glass window. each color of glass pierced by light to give off it’s characteristics and properties. yet nothing is hidden from light. we have always been encouraged even commanded to come to Him and learn from Him. the rich powerful righteous and the wise of this world do not see a need to come to Him. yet we were made thirsty and hungry. Jesus said that if you drink the living water I give you, you will never thirst again.

  113. street says:

    thinking of a rowboat. daniel’s three friends would not take the opportunities that presented them selves to save their lives. they awaited for God and were not disappointed. oswald chambers speaks about good better and best in that sometimes we settle for good and better and not the best. paul speaks about the nuances of this when dealing with brothers and sisters. either way a faith working out in a Spirit of love that comes from God.

  114. Beloved says:

    I’ve been thinking about the crowds rushing madly to catch the blessing of eternal life Forever mentioned learning about. How did they recognize the Word Jesus as the One their hearts longed for? Was it His preaching or was it the life of love He lived, or both? John baptized Jesus and saw the Spirit descend upon Him preparing Jesus for the greatest mission the world has ever seen! Yes I think a mission without the Spirit of love would not have been so profound. Living Word, living Spirit, living God. Thank you Jesus.

  115. Beloved says:

    Pearl I too forget where things are in scripture or confuse myself having memorized from both the KJV and the NIV over the years. But I’m finding retirement a real blessing as I now spend about 6 hours a day in the Word vs my typical 2 hours a day during my productive years. I find it really exciting rediscovering things I’d forgotten! Faithful God we serve and never boring! Whether my anxiety is through the roof or not He’s always with me. There’s no need for a sick day off in the Kingdom. He’s awesome!

  116. narrowpathseeker says:

    Joyce, Street, thank you….I found it in Philipians not too far in….I will study it tomorrow morning…reading your explanation of Jesus emptying himself puts my thoughts on it on hold for now… I will let you know tomorrow…have a Blessed evening and thank you both again. Pearl

  117. jeff1 says:

    Saviour I come
    Quiet my soul, remember
    Redemption’s hill
    Where Your blood was spilled
    For my ransom
    Everything I once held dear
    I count it all as lost

    Lead me to the cross
    Where Your love poured out
    Bring me to my knees
    Lord I lay me down
    Rid me of myself
    I belong to You
    Lead me, lead me to the cross

    You were as I
    Tempted and trialed
    Human
    The word became flesh
    Bore my sin and death
    Now you’ve risen

    Everything I once held dear
    I count it all as lost

    Lead me to the cross
    Where your love poured out
    Bring me to my knees
    Lord I lay me down
    Rid me of myself
    I belong to You
    Lead me
    Lead me to the cross

    To your heart
    To your heart
    Lead me to your heart
    Lead me to your heart

    Lead me to the cross
    Where Your love poured out
    Bring me to my knees
    Lord I lay me down
    Rid me of myself
    I belong to You
    Lead me
    Lead me, You lead me, to the cross

    Where Your love poured out
    Bring me to my knees
    Lord I lay me down
    Rid me of myself
    I belong to You
    Oh lead me
    Lead me to the cross

  118. poohpity says:

    street, Paul would not be perplexed with me at all nor would he compare me to the Corinthians or anyone else because that was not how he rolled. Only worldly thinkers would assume and compare one person to another. Get to know Jesus better then you will understand me because I belong to Him.

  119. poohpity says:

    street, by the way Paul was not perplexed by the Corinthians at all, he knew who they were by what they did which he knew that they were immature in their faith when he said, “Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual, but as worldly—as infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for solid food. In fact, you are still not ready, for you are still worldly.” So he was not perplexed by them at all.

  120. Beloved says:

    Remembering when Mart talked about the deceiver being deceived a while back. Even in his cleverness he was no match for the Holy God that created him. The work of the Word condemns all sin. To death.

  121. poohpity says:

    The work of the Word was not to condemn all sin but to save us from the death that is a result of sin. John 3:17 Jesus said, “You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.” also John 12:47

  122. Beloved says:

    Thinking about Jesus hanging on the cross saying, “Father forgive them they don’t know what they do”. (Deceived) Then, “It is finished”. Paul reminds the troubled church: 1 Corinthians 15:55-57 NLT
    55 O death, where is your victory?
    O death, where is your sting?[a]”

    56 For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. 57 But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ!

  123. jeff1 says:

    Let me not deceive myself, sin is still what separates me from God spiritually as the flesh is weak as I have found to my displeasure.

    If I do not condemn another today it is because I cannot (and let me not deceive myself it is not because I am not judgemental) as God as shown me when I was playing Him rather than following Jesus.

    Paul was starting to think like Jesus and realising the responsibility that went with it which was not to be critical or judgemental but to be patient in teaching.

    It was because of his closeness to God that he had Godly discernment and insight i.e. he could see that those he was teaching were not spiritually awakened and he knew he could not feed them knowledge when they had not even digested the knowledge they already had. God Himself give him a thorn in the side to keep him from getting conceited as God protects us from ourselves as well.

    Paul teaches that if I stay close to God He will stay close to me.

    Yes, You are always close to me
    Following all my ways
    May I be always close to You
    Following all Your ways Lord

  124. jeff1 says:

    My son said something to be yesterday which I did not want to hear but nevertheless in my heart I knew he was speaking as to how he feels or rather the lack of feeling for his dad.

    His dad who now has dementia has never been close to his sons and I blame myself for that for reasons I won’t go into.

    As his dad’s health deteriorates my son admitted to me he did not love his dad as how could he because love has to be reciprocated.

    As someone who had the love of a father I cannot understand where my son is coming from as I believed he would have unconditional love for his dad.

    I do know that he has not had an easy life with my mental breakdown when he was very young and the break up of our marriage hitting him hard.

    It pains me to know I cannot fill the void his dad has left though I have tried to compensate but now know there is nothing can compensate for lost love but God’s loving touch as who else takes us as we are and loves us unconditionally.

  125. SFDBWV says:

    Viv I am going to tell a story about generations and how we perceive things aren’t always the way it is for everyone.

    An old friend of mine long dead was the same age as my father and mother, his nickname was “Stub”.

    Stub was an alcoholic for as long as I knew him, but one of those people you couldn’t help but love. He was tender hearted, generous and a loyal friend to all.

    His mother along with his sisters and brothers were abandoned by their father and left to fend for themselves at a very early age. He grew into a teenager never knowing his dad.

    When he was about 16 he learned his father was living in Morgantown, WV a city about eighty miles from here. So he went to find him.

    When he did find him he introduced himself as being his son, his father’s response was short and cold, “What is that to me?”

    Sadly Stub returned home rejected by a man who had fathered him, and showed him no love.

    Fast forward to now and the man who works for me as a town maintenance worker is a nephew of Stub, his mother being one of Stub’s sisters.

    Mike hates his father and will quickly tell you his father never showed him any love. Mike loved his mother and considered himself to be more closely connected to his mother’s family than his father’s.

    But what mike has come to learn is that he had spent his life hating his dad and though never wanting to be anything like him, he has in truth become just like him and has never had anything to do with the children he fathered with different women along the way.

    Genetically Mike has a problem with generational sin on both sides and generational sin has its consequences. However generational sin can be broken by accepting Jesus as Lord and the “curse” removed.

    Mike has a lot of issues with self-disappointment and is now a professing Christian working on his own healing through our Lord. He tries to cover his true feelings by playing the tough guy, but God isn’t fooled and neither am I.

    I will join you Viv in praying for your son, and I won’t give up hope for his deliverance.

    Remembering the song, only love can break a heart and only love can mend it again.

    Your American friend
    Steve

  126. narrowpathseeker says:

    Steve, once again you have taken the time out of your heavily packed schedule to encourage and lift up another soul in need with a wonderful correlating story composed in loving concern and Wisdom. It is indicative of your Christlike nature and the reason you are so loved and admired here. I know it was for Vivian, but it Blessed me and i am sure others as well, to be witness to your loving kindness to others when you are so swamped in difficult daily tasks of your own.. God Bless you Steve….and all here whose goal it is to serve Him in our relationship with others.

  127. jeff1 says:

    Living in a country where alcohol has been a curse I know too many stories similar to Mike’s, Steve, and that tells me that history repeats itself because I never wanted to turn into my mother as I always knew she was her own worst enemy but God really has a sense of humour because I couldn’t be more like her and yet it was my dad that I believed as my dad had stability of mind and a closeness to God that speaks of someone who had the mind of Paul in that he knew the difference in a person spiritually awakened or not.

    You speak of your friend playing the tough guy and you are not fooled and I know exactly what you mean as Northern Ireland has a monopoly on tough guys.

    The difficulty for me as a woman is living with them as I am tired and weary of my generational sins, my own shortfalls and this world at large.

    I have come to believe that God is with me in my trials and I get strength from that but I know families who have been praying for lifetimes that their loved ones be free of alcohol and yet they were not delivered.

    It seems to be God’s will to be with us in our afflictions rather than to remove it, and why I will be so thankful for your prayers as you will have genuine hope of deliverance while I seem to have lost my faith in believing that I will see changes this side of heaven.

    Please understand I have struggled with depression, anxiety and psychosis for some 25 years now and it takes its toll.

    I don’t have the energy or the inclination to fight this world anymore and to some that may sound very defeatest but I am being honest as the older I get the more alien this world seems to me.

    It is why we need friends to help us along the way, I find, and the prayers of others has so often lifted me out of a dark hole so thank you and may God bless you in your sincerity.

  128. poohpity says:

    Jesus died so our sin no longer separates us from God, it is us who usually walks away from God as it has been since the beginning not Him walking away from us. Thank you Viv for sharing a personal story from your own life and what you and your family are struggling with rather than sharing the story of someone else or in other words gossiping about another which it is their story to tell not for anyone else to share.(Proverbs 11:13)

    Sometimes people share their struggles with us because they trust that it will go no further. They thought it would be a safe place to unload and often hope that it will stay between the person and the one it was shared with.(1 Tim 5:13)

    All sin is generational it is part of us while we live in this flesh and Jesus is the remedy and gave us the ability or power to turn away from it and chose a different path.

  129. poohpity says:

    choose not chose, lol.

  130. poohpity says:

    You know that is something that both the Living Word and the written word do is show me the condition of my own heart. Upon that eye opening view I see my need for a Savior, not as a put down or to shame or guilt but to show me my need and the open arms of welcome into His heart and His world. Satan will use that as a means to bring shame and guilt to walk away from God but Jesus shows me how great and all encompassing His great love is for me and my need for His grace, mercy and forgiveness which brings me closer to Him.

  131. Beloved says:

    He giveth more grace when the burdens grow greater,
    He sendeth more strength when the labors increase;
    To added afflictions He addeth His mercy,
    To multiplied trials, His multiplied peace.
    When we have exhausted our store of endurance,
    When our strength has failed ere the day is half done,
    When we reach the end of our hoarded resources
    Our Father’s full giving is only begun.
    Fear not that thy need shall exceed His provision,
    Our God ever yearns His resources to share;
    Lean hard on the arm everlasting, availing;
    The Father both thee and thy load will upbear.
    His love has no limits, His grace has no measure,
    His power no boundary known unto men;
    For out of His infinite riches in Jesus
    He giveth, and giveth, and giveth again.

  132. Beloved says:

    Pooh I too have had to learn the hard way who is safe to share with and who is not. Even my best friend doesn’t know some things about me as we reveal our mutual struggles little by little over time. The existential climate of today often causes more trouble than help, but then nothing can replace our best Friend, Jesus. Oh He’s so wonderful!

  133. Beloved says:

    I thought this was a good reminder of life after conversion.
    “Becoming a Christian is a profound, personal, and permanent encounter with the risen Christ that leaves us in no doubt that we have been made radically different.” —Alistair Begg

    Listen to the full message: https ://tfl.to/2LEr840

  134. jeff1 says:

    When I am down and oh my soul so weary
    When troubles come and my heart burdened be
    Then I am still and wait here in the silence
    Until you come and sit a while with me

    You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains
    You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas
    I am strong, when I am on your shoulders
    You raise me up, to more than I can be

    You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains
    You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas
    I am strong, when I am on your shoulders
    You raise me up, to more than I can be

    You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains (stand on mountains)
    You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas (stormy seas)
    I am strong (I am strong), when I am on your shoulders (I am strong)
    You raise me up, to more than I can be

    You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains (stand on mountains)
    You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas (stormy seas)
    I am strong, when I am on your shoulders
    You raise me up, to more than I can be

    You raise me up, to more than I can be

  135. Beloved says:

    Street how does fear affect our walk? 6/11@2:15
    i do know this though, the ones who have been forgiven more love more. they also see danger sooner than others unless they are walking in fear.

  136. Beloved says:

    Yesterday pooh mentioned feeling horrible. Today I’m hurting and the LORD led me to 1 Peter 5:5-11, starting with “Clothe yourselves, all of you…” I too feel much better.

  137. narrowpathseeker says:

    Joyce I am sorry you are hurting and hope it has nothing to do with my response at 5:53 pm yesterday. My thank you to you and street was sincere. I appreciated your explanation of Jesus emptying Himself….I just wanted to read it and study it for myself is why I said my thoughts were on hold….I haven’t really read and studied it as yet…I tend to spend more time in prayer than study and often lose track of time…but I fully intend to do so… Anyway I am glad you are feeling better…I wonder …am I the oldest here at 73?

    Street, I hope all is well with you. I have been finding your posts progressively interesting, encouraging, and heartfelt… ….Thank you

  138. Beloved says:

    No Pearl it was a demonic attack. Satan knows my weaknesses as well as my strengths and accused me before God as usual, causing me great anguish and wants me to doubt God’s love and desire to keep me His, for all eternity. It was intense but God allowed it so praying for a better night. Just weary now mostly. The mind is our battlefield here in America I think. Seems like it anyway comparing it with countries where Christians are killed for their faith in God. Thank you for your concern, it was very loving thing to me.

  139. Beloved says:

    Pearl I hoped you would study it for yourself, which is why I only gave the book reference. Reading all the verses around a particular verse adds to our understanding.

  140. Beloved says:

    Pearl you are only 5 years older than me.

  141. SFDBWV says:

    Chuck Missler had a background in science and computer science at its earlier stages. He had a thirst and hunger to learn about God and the connection between God, the sciences and especially the written word.

    He dared to ask questions and speculate some possibilities.

    Whereas he has arrived at the place and with the person from whom all of his curiosity is answered, we are still left to wonder, speculate and question.

    Unless I am mistaken God created the Hebrew people so that they would reintroduce God to the world.

    A world that had grown up out of the flood of Noah and scattered all over the globe with only the handed down stories of creation and a coming savior who would make all things right again.

    Mankind got lost from the truth so God provided a way for mankind to learn the truth and also provided the promised Savior.

    We learn about God and His story/our story from the written word, as Chuck Missler was fond of saying, “from 66 books and 40 different authors written over several thousands of years yet making up an integrated message system.”

    When people ask how I could believe the Bible, I start by saying look to Israel. Here are a people who are living proof of what the Bible says.

    Then of course I say what does your heart say to you?

    Because I know in every man is the knowledge of eternity and with it the desire to know more.

    Who am I, why am I here, what is this life all about?

    The answers to these question are found there written in what we know of as the Bible. Once we learn of who God is and accept Jesus of Nazareth as the promised Messiah, God provides a “Tutor” in order to help us see and understand more clearly.

    But like any adventure, the more you learn the more there is to learn and the more questions abound.

    Rest assured when we all stand before Christ, all of our questions will be answered in perfect detail and they all will make perfect sense.

    61 degrees, wet and cool from overnight showers.

    Steve

  142. jeff1 says:

    I think you are right Steve as often I can only see the sense when I look back and in my foolishness did not see it at the time.

    What I do know is that God has shown me some home truths from my questions and I seen undesirable traits in myself that I had blinded myself to proving that God knows best when it comes to knowing His children.

    Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my concerns. See if there is any offensive way in me; lead me in the way everlasting. Amen.

    When I think of how He came so far from glory
    Came to dwell among the lowly such as I
    To suffer shame and such disgrace
    On Mount Calvary take my place
    Then I ask myself this question
    Who am I?

    Who am I that The King would bleed and die for
    Who am I that He would pray not my will, Thy Lord
    The answer I may never know
    Why He ever loved me so
    But to that old rugged cross He’d go
    For who am I?

    When I’m reminded of His words
    I’ll leave you never
    If you’ll be true I’ll give to you life forever
    Oh I wonder what I could have done
    To deserve God’s only Son
    To fight my battles until they’re won
    For who am I?

    Who am I that the King would bleed and die for
    who am I that He would pray not my will, Thy Lord
    The answer I may never know
    Why He ever loved me so
    But to that old rugged cross He’d go
    For who am I?
    But to that old rugged cross He’d go for, who am I?

  143. poohpity says:

    “Since God has the technology to create us in the first place, He certainly has the technology to get a message to us.” Chuck Missler

    Let’s look at that statement from Missler at first it may seem benign except for the definition of technology which is a human term which represents human action. “Technology can be most broadly defined as the entities, both material and immaterial, created by the application of mental and physical effort in order to achieve some value. In this usage, technology refers to tools and machines that may be used to solve real-world problems.”

    The real world problem that has impacted human kind is sin, not time or dimensions of reality which is the focus of Missler and it certainly is not technology of any kind that could bring a solution to that. Getting a message to us most often occurs through His Holy Spirit as the means or the work of Jesus on the Cross or anything else that a relationship with another can do, so let us try by human methods to explain the unexplainable, love. Technology is often a means that separates us from God and does not bring us into a loving relationship with Him.

    Because someone references and uses the bible does not mean they have faith in God.

    Steve, Did you learn from Missler things like;
    “Unless I am mistaken God created the Hebrew people so that they would reintroduce God to the world.” or “A world that had grown up out of the flood of Noah and scattered all over the globe with only the handed down stories of creation and a coming savior who would make all things right again.”?

    Or “Mankind got lost from the truth so God provided a way for mankind to learn the truth and also provided the promised Savior.” or “When people ask how I could believe the Bible, I start by saying look to Israel. Here are a people who are living proof of what the Bible says.”??

    Because if that is what he teaches(Missler that is) then one better listen to someone else possibly to God and what His word actually teaches.

  144. poohpity says:

    If one believes the bible contains Truth they would know that that Truth is in the person of Jesus Christ who says, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life”. If they also believe in the Truth would they not search for HIM and use the bible as a tool in that search but sadly people only say they read it when in all actuality they do not but only lead people to think they do which is why the Truth gets lost in the twists and turns of human understanding, opinions and logic.

  145. poohpity says:

    Ya know there is no science or physics to relationships with God or others. It is not because we try and figure people out but it is in accepting them for who they are just we have been accepted by God for who we are. The Word and the word are about relationships first with God then with others and that comes from the heart or should I say a transformed heart and the only One who can transform a heart is God. NO SCIENCE or PHYSICS involved.

  146. poohpity says:

    In Colossi which looked to all kinds of different human teaching and knowledge Paul warned them “Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.”

  147. street says:

    beloved the verse i was thinking about when i mentioned fear is 1 John 4:18
    There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

  148. street says:

    when i go through difficulties and failures and i get a chance to think back on them in a quiet place. i go through the Lords Prayer slowly. thinking about what the words mean. in this prayer new things come up and into focus of a relationship that improvement longs for perfection. not so much in works but more inline with trusting and returning to the place i want to be. repentance humility trust dependence affection for the Holy. i have to admit affection for that which is not Holy is always a “fear” that tells me my love is somewhere else from time to time and God will not tolerate it. i guess you could call it the difference between the law and the prophets and the presents of God.

  149. SFDBWV says:

    I am in agreement with street as fear being a waste of time and energy. In fact all throughout the history of mankind fear and ignorance go together.

    Chuck Missler also had an opening comment when beginning some Biblical adventure in learning, he would say “let’s have some fun”.

    When you can get to the point where learning from the written word is exciting and an adventure in knowing more about Christ the whole thing becomes “fun” not fearful.

    That is unless you find something that exposes something in you that needs “healing”. Even that can turn into a good thing if you accept it and turn it over to God to create that new spirit in you.

    Here is something I learned from Chuck Missler that I have posted before, some of you may find enlightening…

    The Genealogy of Adam to Noah, Genesis 5
    Adam, Man
    Seth, Appointed
    Enosh, Mortal
    Kenan, Sorrow
    Mahalalel, the Blessed God
    Jared, Shall come down
    Enoch, Teaching
    Methuselah, His death shall bring
    Lamech, the Despairing
    Noah, Comfort, Rest

    There you have the Gospel spelled out in Genesis 5.

    I hope those among you who can accept it, enjoy the knowledge that studying the Scripture can produce.

    Steve

  150. street says:

    thinking about the necessity of fear. thinking of paul and his relationship to fear as a persecutor of Christ. paul on the road to damascus, finding what he was not looking for. later being taken into the third heaven and given a thorn in the flesh. could fear have been exchanged for a thorn? just speculation. isn’t speculation a tool to seek truth in God’s light. too much speculation and the tools become instruments of idolatry. i find it interesting that we are to seek the place of rest.

  151. jeff1 says:

    The fact is there is still fear and ignorance about God which is why the world is messed up.

    Religions have caused this fear and ignorance because it suits their causes.

    It is evident that when God said don’t make this world your home He did so for very good reasons.

    God does what He has to because man doesn’t do what he should.

    I never said that I would give you silver or gold
    Or that you would never feel the fire or shiver in the cold
    But I did say you’d never walk through this world alone (Hmm)
    And I did say, don’t make this world your home

    I never said that fear wouldn’t find you in the night
    Or that loneliness was something you’d never have to fight
    But I did say I’d be right there by your side
    And I did say I’d always help you fight

    ‘Cause you know I made a promise that I intend to keep
    My grace will be sufficient in every time of need
    And my love will be the anchor that you can hold onto
    This is the promise, this is the promise I made to you

    I never said that friends wouldn’t turn their backs on you
    Or that the world around you wouldn’t see you as a fool
    But I did say you’ll surely be despised
    And I did say my ways confound the wise

    I didn’t say you’d never taste the bitter kiss of death
    Or have to walk through chilly Jordan to enter into rest
    But I did say I’d be waiting on the other side
    (Yeah, yeah)
    And I did say I’ll dry every tear you cry

    ‘Cause you know I made a promise that I’ve prepared a place
    And some day sooner than you think you’ll see me face to face
    And you’ll sing with the angels and a countless mulititude
    This is the promise, this is the promise I’ve made to you

    So just keep on walkin’, don’t turn to the left or right
    And in the midst of darkness, let this be your light
    That hell can’t separate us and your gonna make it through
    This is the promise, this is the promise I made to you

  152. Beloved says:

    Thanks Street. Yesterday I kept getting stuck at the first verse in the Our Father at the word “Hallowed” after pouring out my heart. His Holiness is always enough to rest in, even in a sunami of emotions. I always remind myself through Psalms23 how comforting God is to me also. Lately I’d been praying Psalms123 as I wait on the LORD. Today is better, a friend invited me out to lunch not even knowing I’d been struggling. Got me back out into the beautiful summer air which helps tremendously. He gives us all good things to enjoy from His storehouses! His timing is always perfect.

  153. Beloved says:

    Perfect love casts out fear. WOW! Who is perfect? Jesus, the Word. Yes He is and does.

  154. Beloved says:

    Steve I think I’ve seen that acrostic before. I can see why you enjoy his writings, you and he are way smarter than me. Which is probably why he made sense to you. I have no problem joining science and scripture myself. Science is measurable which is how we get weights, measurements and a myriad of other things found in scripture and everyday life. God told Adam to name the animals, birds, etc. All different sizes, shapes and kinds. Must be important!

  155. poohpity says:

    Beloved, can you explain how that is acrostic? That is not even the Gospel message nor is it the correct meanings for those names. It is just another example of meaningless babble from that author and nothing intelligent or coherent just as are most of his writings but he sure does fool a lot of people when they are not grounded in the truth or the Gospel. Good grief if one can not even recognize hog wash they will fall for anything and Missler’s writings are not even good enough to qualify for deception because there is nothing at all believable about anything he teaches and he even uses his own writings for references and proof to his own writings. If that alone is not a dead give away I do not know what is.

  156. Beloved says:

    No sorry I don’t want to discuss.

  157. poohpity says:

    I guess I can understand why, lol.

  158. Beloved says:

    Romans 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

  159. street says:

    prayer request
    decorating church building for Vacation Bible School this week for next week. pray for kids and staff. pray for God to be there every moment, there will be more than 2 or 3 hundred. looking at 90 volunteers/staff children to adult. also for VBS worldwide. making Him known.

  160. jeff1 says:

    To see the young being taught is a beautiful witness as we have a family service in our church every 3rd week of the month when our Rector focuses on the Sunday school children and it is encouraging to see their enthusiasm and trust and gives me hope again for the future.

    I don’t think you could keep God away as children are so much more loving and trusting than adults are.

    Jesus loves the little children
    All the little children of the world
    Black and yellow, red and white
    They’re all precious in His sight
    Jesus loves the little children of the world

    Whether you’re rich or whether you’re poor
    It matters not to Him
    He remembers where you’re going
    Not where you’ve been

    Jesus loves the little children
    All the little children of the world
    Black and yellow, red and white
    They’re all precious in His sight
    Jesus loves the little children of the world

    If your heart is troubled
    Don’t worry, don’t you fret
    He knows that you have heard His call
    And He won’t forget

    Jesus loves the little children
    All the little children of the world
    Black and yellow, red and white
    They’re all precious in His sight
    Jesus loves the little children of the world

    All around the world tonight
    His children rest assured
    That He will watch and He will keep
    Safe and secure

    Jesus loves the little children
    All the children of the world
    Black and yellow, red and white
    They’re all precious in His sight
    Jesus loves the little children of the world

  161. SFDBWV says:

    While reading some of the posts and trying to sort out my thoughts this morning before things get too busy it occurred to me how somewhere along the way so many of us became self-styled experts and critics of everyone else.

    It makes me wonder just how alien Christianity today might look to such people a Polycarp and Irenaeus as well as how alien they might appear to the critics within our faith.

    I could easily imagine some today setting down and listening to these past saints and when they were finished talking, saying, “Yes, but” and off they would go on their own self-styled view with no room for any others view.

    Simon Bolivar, hero of South America who defeated the Spanish and won independence for Brazil was once quoted as saying, “From my coffin a thousand dictators shall rise.”

    I am reminded of this quote when I think of how Christianity has become so fractured and divided into so many independent sects of the original groups that looked to the Disciples for leadership.

    As well as how that division has dwindled down to the individual to decide on their own what to believe and what not to.

    Without any structured organized system of worship.

    All the while stubbornly criticizing all others.

    One more quote from Chuck Missler then I am going to let him rest. Concerning whether or not you as a recipient of salvation could ever lose it, his simple though was “If it were up to you, yes you could lose it, but it isn’t up to you.”

    All of his teaching led to Jesus of Nazareth as Lord, any who finds fault with that, needs to look again at just what they believe and see if it is any different.

    A cool 54 this morning, the “fall” weather has been enjoyable.

    Steve

  162. poohpity says:

    Even the demons that possessed people knew the identity of Jesus. (Mark 1:24-25 NLT; Matt 8:28-29 NLT) The demons knew even before some of the disciples and most all of the religious leaders.

    It was in love that Irenaeus, Paul and others after them have called out false teaching and heresy. It certainly is not loving to let someone go on teaching lies and deceit without sharing the truth. One thing that Missler did have going for him was to say to compare what we are taught to scripture, I think he said that from what Steve said and that is a good and right thing to do. Examine scripture for yourself and you will see because they bare witness to the truth.

  163. poohpity says:

    Even during the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness Satan used scripture in a manner against what was God’s intended purpose.

  164. poohpity says:

    But just like identifying anything false one has to know the truth before they can see the rubbish of lies. Just as federal agents can identify counterfeit money. They do not study the counterfeit but the real thing to be able to identify the false and most have not put the time into studying the real thing so they are blinded by the false and lead astray.

  165. poohpity says:

    What to me seems even worse is to lead others to believe that one has done something when they actually have not like the honesty it takes to tell others that they are not that familiar with scripture as has been confessed to in the past but now talk as if they are. Talk about deception. No one would think any less of someone who honestly admits they do not read or even want to read scripture but the horrors found in deceiving people because one day we will all stand before God to give an account of the things we have done.(2 Cor 5:10)

    What do you think will be done to those who have lead the Lord’s people astray?

  166. poohpity says:

    For me I just do not want to be a weed or a goat tossed into the pit from not standing up for or on the truth.

  167. jeff1 says:

    If God says focus on Christ He does so for very good reasons and while I hear what you are saying Pooh about Paul & Irenaeus calling our false teaching so did my dad and and since my Rector came he has been doing it but unless a person is spiritually awakened to God’s truths then he/she is both deaf and blind to such teaching.

    I had a discussion with my Rector believing that superstition would be no longer an issue for a Christ follower and he informed me not naming anyone but admitting many of his parishioners hold superstitions.

    I once visited a Roman Catholic woman in her eighties and she was afraid that the Priest would curse her if she did not obey the church and these beliefs are present today among many believers.

    Over the years people have been indoctrinated by religions and ordained ministers whom they trusted and today it is evident that they were not trustworthy leaving many feeling lost and let down.

    The last thing these people need are judgement but understanding as to their plight.

    As someone who has struggled with mental illness I know that it is very difficult to get something out of your head when for the greatest part of your life you have believed it and so I recognise if it is difficult for me in my sixties then what is it like for someone in their eighties.

    The ordained Minister has to discern whether or not because of the mental state of the person if it is more loving or not to allow them to continue with their false beliefs.

    I believe that most Ministers would come to the conclusion that in the light of the person’s ignorance God would not hold them responsible for their beliefs.

    This is just my thinking and I have not conferred with another in coming to that conclusion.

    With all due respect Pooh, I don’t think your living in a fallen world but in an ideal one but this world is anything but ideal or the people in it (myself included) and we have to take it as it comes and not as we would want it to be.

  168. Beloved says:

    Praying for VBS and children everywhere. God is love. As Timothy Keller said in a sermon: “Truth without love is imperious self-righteousness. Love without truth is cowardly self-indulgence.” Both are selfish

  169. poohpity says:

    Viv, I know better than anyone that I live in a fallen world as a broken and fallen person who needs the love, forgiveness, mercy and grace of our God. I do not speak or write to bring honor to myself or to help me have a good reputation but as a witness of one who has been forgiven so, so very much and I still in thought or deed still need that forgiveness, mercy and grace. I love reading the scripture because they help me focus on the One whom I love very much and tell His story. I sit down every morning and have coffee, talk and listen to the Lord because I have a relationship with Him and I do that by reading HIS words then I share what I have read and the experiences I have had of His great love, forgiveness, mercy and grace that Jesus has shown me.

    As far as being delusional about what goes on around me and in me rather than delusional I am a realist. I see and hear very well but as you share all you loved about your dad with us all the time, I do the same thing but it is about Jesus that I share or am a witness to. I do it out of my love for Him and I want everyone to know about Him too.

    I do not put human beings on a pedestal or favor one over another because I know just from life that it is true that ALL human beings are sinners in some fashion or another. Even if I were to come in contact with a movie star, famous musician which I have, the President or a Queen they are only people to me, I will respect their high position but I know they are just sinners who need to be saved by God’s amazing grace.

    I live in an apartment complex with about 300 other people some destroy our pool by throwing things into it, some sell drugs, some throw their rubbish on the ground, some break all the rules we have, some lay in their apartments dead for weeks because no one knows them very well, the police are called here several times a week, there are gossips, backstabbers, refugees, illegal aliens, criminals of some sort or another, children left to play outside with no one to watch them not knowing that there maybe pedophiles or sex offenders but there are also those who do good things for our neighbors and establish relationships with a lot of them no matter what they have done or are doing, that is what I try to do. Their ages range from 0 to the oldest in his nineties, every color, nationality, religious beliefs or none, many with different disabilities mental and physical(like me), different economic statuses, etc. you get the picture.

    I have lived here longer than most since a year after it was built and have seen people come and go but my purpose remains the same whether writing on here or my actions in my neighborhood, or in my church or out in the world in general. My cause is to share the love of Jesus in word and deed. Do I mess up yep almost everyday in some form or fashion.

    Do I do it perfectly no not by any means but my neighbors know that they can come to me anytime when they have a need and if possible I will help with a ride or food or just to talk or they come for me to pray for them and with them for family, friends and healing. So I know real well what they world I live in is like because I have lived in it and have done things that would curl your hair to know about. I have traveled out of this country to work and have lived in 26 different states so I know the world at large as well not all of it but some of it and the people I have met all over.

    I have never lived in one little tiny area all my life nor do I know what it is like to experience not much of anything. That I do not know about.

  170. street says:

    steve said While reading some of the posts and trying to sort out my thoughts this morning before things get too busy it occurred to me how somewhere along the way so many of us became self-styled experts and critics of everyone else.

    It makes me wonder just how alien Christianity today might look to such people a Polycarp and Irenaeus as well as how alien they might appear to the critics within our faith.

    one thing i am sure of is love can not be counterfeited. i am under the impression that love comes from God and well as the other gifts of the Spirit. i ran across a verse that showed me even heathens love. it’s the verse where Jesus speaks about even heathens love those that love them. this has caused me to pause and rethink everything i understood before. Jesus asks us to love those who are or appear to be enemies. we are also told to feed them. the verse Jesus tells His apostles to give the crowds something to eat, patients kindness goodness? is it possible we could give living water and bread from heaven?

  171. street says:

    thinking about the woman caught i adultery. what did she find?

    we have a tendency to give the law and the prophets,
    how much better if we give Christ.

    thinking of a yoke.

  172. SFDBWV says:

    Yes Street there are a lot of counterfeit Christians and pseudo-Christians today as well as during the time of Polycarp and Irenaeus.

    They were known by their fruit then just as today.

    Steve

  173. Beloved says:

    I just listened online to a couple sermons online. One on the sufficiency of scripture

  174. poohpity says:

    Yes there are many who are Christians in name only but it will be up to God to weed them out or separate the goats from the true sheep. Many do not even know the commands of Jesus or the Good News but it is up to God that knows the true heart of people to make that determination not us. As the scriptures teach what Jesus said, “‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At the proper time I will tell the harvesters, “First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.” in Matt 13 then again Jesus taught about the separation of His sheep from the goats in Matt 25:31-46.

    There is a couple areas we can know and that is whether someone is sharing the teaching of Jesus or their own.

  175. Beloved says:

    Sorry technical difficulties.
    The sufficiency of scripture by Dr Street was so helpful! Thankyou! God is ever guiding me in His truth.

  176. Beloved says:

    Yes street loving enemies is Jesus’ way of being in the world i think. Not necessarily agreeing with them but through self sacrifice esteeming others as better than ourselves. Even victims like the woman caught in adultery found Grace and mercy as Jesus went against the mainstream world knowing His future held death brutality and betrayal even. Its a tough harsh world out there, best to put on Kingdom thinking.

  177. poohpity says:

    beloved, lol, just exactly what is street a Dr of?

    street is right as he shared the scripture that teaches what good is it to treat people with love who love us back or are kind to us because we are kind to them even people who do not know Christ do that every day. It is how we treat people who are ugly or mean or persecute or hate us that shows our relationship with Christ because we love and do good them in spite of how they treat us.

  178. street says:

    13 Jesus replied, “Anyone who drinks this water will soon become thirsty again. 14 But those who drink the water I give will never be thirsty again. It becomes a fresh, bubbling spring within them, giving them eternal life.”

    15 “Please, sir,” the woman said, “give me this water! Then I’ll never be thirsty again, and I won’t have to come here to get water.”

    16 “Go and get your husband,” Jesus told her.

    17 “I don’t have a husband,” the woman replied.

    Jesus said, “You’re right! You don’t have a husband— 18 for you have had five husbands, and you aren’t even married to the man you’re living with now. You certainly spoke the truth!”

    19 “Sir,” the woman said, “you must be a prophet. 20 So tell me, why is it that you Jews insist that Jerusalem is the only place of worship, while we Samaritans claim it is here at Mount Gerizim, where our ancestors worshiped?”

    21 Jesus replied, “Believe me, dear woman, the time is coming when it will no longer matter whether you worship the Father on this mountain or in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans know very little about the one you worship, while we Jews know all about him, for salvation comes through the Jews. 23 But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way. 24 For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.”

    25 The woman said, “I know the Messiah is coming—the one who is called Christ. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

    26 Then Jesus told her, “I am the Messiah!”

  179. jeff1 says:

    Pooh your 9.42 am post

    Your post tells me there is not much you haven’t experienced or seen but I was referring to you not seeming to realise how many people have had false teaching which is widespread and why God is misunderstood.

    I happen to believe that this messed up world comes from the fact that God is misunderstood.

    I am not sure what my purpose here on earth is as I have spent more time doubting, questioning and running from God.

    I struggle to hold on to what little faith I have so I don’t try to convert another when I need all the encouragement I can get to keep my own faith.

    In my heart I believe God but in my head there is turmoil about the world and my purpose in it and truthfully I often ask myself if I had not been brought up a Christian would I believe in God at all.

    Religion in my country only brought hatred and violence and I was brought up religious so I was part of that because I was not aware like my dad was that God doesn’t take sides.

    If I speak of my dad it is because he was the only Christian that showed me that I have to be on God’s side rather than expect God to be on mine.

    My dad knew that he had to do God’s will and he put God before his Protestantism and in this country that is seen as being a traitor and I never had the courage to do that.

    Until you have lived with bombs and bullets day in and day out for 30 years I’m not sure you could understand but I told myself I had the truth because it was easier to justify my thinking that way.

    Finding peace in this world is very momentarily and why I find music and song gives me what I need to rest in God’s promises because whatever I don’t know about God I do believe His love is beyond human understanding as if we understood God’s love this world would be a better place.

  180. poohpity says:

    Well Viv, because of how much time I put into reading God’s word I do realize more than you will ever know how much false teaching is all around us everyday. Sometimes I wish that I had put my head in the sand and ignore but I made the choice not to. If I can spare one person from falling into the trap of deceit and heresy I will because I care. Maybe no one will really listen but after they know that I only have their good in my heart and mind they will realize it is done out of love.

    I may not have lived with bombs going off for 30 years but for many years I was around people being stabbed with knives or shot with guns or beat up with pool sticks or dying of drug overdoses or mental and physical abuse. We all have our little hell that we live through in some form or fashion. But that does not have to be the norm for anyone we have a choice to leave and move away and/or want change.

    I speak of Jesus because He is the only place I find rest, peace and shelter from all that goes on around me. I know that the faith I have is a gift from God and when I act on the faith already given me then God gives me more and reveals more about Himself to me. God is who I live for, not a religion but a relationship with Him. And yes I find Him in music, nature and many other places not just in the bible, it is the only thing that no one can take away from me.

    I feel sorry for people who do not realize all that they are still chained to and that includes the false teaching and lies they have believed all their lives. I also believe that the minute I gave my life over to God He gave me purpose and meaning because everyone is important to Him and even if it is emptying trash cans do it the best one can for the Lord, it is a purpose and meaning.

  181. poohpity says:

    Because I read the scriptures I realize that this world will never get better but worse because more and more people turn away from God. So the outlook is not good so that is why I put my hope in the Lord not people and spread his word. People will always let you down in some way, I know that because I have often let people down, not really meaning to but I have.

  182. poohpity says:

    Every apartment rented in Israel has a bomb shelter or one close by. They have small arms and larger arms flying over their head everyday but they do not allow that to keep them from living their lives. I am not making any less the problems you face Viv but they do not define who you are, Jesus does. Find out what He says about you and how much you mean to Him and the purpose and meaning He has for your life. It is all written down and sung in songs. There is healing for your soul, heart and your mind in Christ Jesus, trust in Him, depend on Him and watch the changes He will bring to you.

  183. jeff1 says:

    No one knows better than myself how religion can take you away from God but I also know that most of us were taught through religion and also I know that it doesn’t stop God from drawing us to Himself when we are open to receiving Him.

    I have never read my Bible but was surrounded by people who did and they taught me what I know about it plus the preachers I listened to over the years.

    You might disagree with the Roman Catholic church on not allowing scripture to be read by the common people but if you were coming from where I am you would see that it is common people who misinterpretate to fit their beliefs.

    That says to me if it isn’t Jesus leading me then I am lost because my interpretation is just that as I already have been indoctrinated into a religion which means I have preconceived beliefs which will influence my interpretation.

    If my heart is not right with God I can read the Bible morning, noon and night, backwards and forwards and I will still be blinded.

    It is God who knows His children, it is God who draws us to Himself and though you say that because you know scripture that more and more will turn away from God, I believe that God will turn it around as He has the power to do so because He cares for the those who have been false taught as much as He cares for us.

    I think it is what most believers know that they cannot depend on each other but I know that my dad had the right expectations as he never questioned suffering be it is own or another’s and by not doing so he never blamed God.

    The Christians I know like him I see as accepting what Jesus said as truth i.e. in this world you will have tribulation but I have overcome the world.

    My dad did not expect God to give him special treatment as he believed Jesus suffered and so as followers so should we.

    When life is going well people thank God for His blessings but they are not so quick to thank Him for tribulation and yet it has to be as I agree with my dad that God knows best.

    I hear it all the time and probably so do you when an alcoholic dies from abuse of it, he brought it on himself/herself and the person saying it is often a believer.

    My son when he was very young attended the funeral of his friend who died from drug abuse and instead of focusing on the young man and giving comfort to the family the preacher preached of hell and damnation and my son came home disturbed and no doubt where many of his friends and then we wonder why the younger are falling away from church and distancing themselves from God.

    The reason we are still divided on whether God is a God of Wrath or a God of Love.

    I want God to be a God of Love but history make me question this and the state of the world today so I am confused as many are.

    If I trust God today it is because there is no one else I can trust and there is sadness in that for me because I thought people where better than that but perhaps that is my dad in me as my mum always said he seen the best in people while my mum she tended to see the worst.

  184. poohpity says:

    After reading what you wrote 2 times Viv, it seems you get your information about God from other people who share the one thing we all have in common our humanity which is prone to sin and rebellion but never seem to be curious enough about what God or what He has to say but in a few sorted areas to do any research on your own.

  185. Beloved says:

    Wise words from a favorite scottish preacher here,
    “True discernment means not only distinguishing the right from the wrong; it means distinguishing the primary from the secondary, the essential from the indifferent, and the permanent from the transient.” —Sinclair Ferguson

  186. jeff1 says:

    I guess having a dad who knew God so well though I didn’t see it at the time has been all the example I needed to trust God as you are correct Pooh I did listen to many who were anything but close to God though they claimed to be which is why today I don’t trust my own mind as that just says to me how bad a judge of character I am and so leaving all in God’s hands gives me peace of mind which I believe is what God wants for me as He doesn’t want me suffering as He is a loving God and whatever else I don’t know about Him that seems to be enough for my curiosity.

  187. poohpity says:

    I am so sorry. I thought you said you question God’s love and that He is a God of wrath and other questions you had about God. I must have read what you wrote wrong.

  188. jeff1 says:

    I said what divided believers today was that many still see God as a God of Wrath while others a God of Love and which shows there is still much confusion and ignorance of God.

    Looking at my dad’s example I can only see a God of Love but I have friends who studied their Bible in great depth who tell me it is not that simple and so I trust God that He knows best rather than disturbing my mind with questions that are beyond my understanding as I believe in God’s will being done is what matters in the end.

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