Believe it or Not

Text Size: Zoom In

Believe it or Not

Mart De Haan Posted by Mart DeHaan
July 22nd, 2018
211 Comments »

As much as I don’t like snakes… one more thought.

In the Garden, the fiction sounded believable. The words, logic, and appearance of the Serpent— encouraged trust rather than alarm.

The prelude to the sequel is easy to forget. An embittered enemy, disguised in the appearance of a pre-cursed creature, seemed to offer a better hope than the Gardener.

The confusion that followed is history, here, and now.

The misunderstanding shows up not only when a rescued family thinks their Father has led them into the wilderness to kill them— and not only when the Gardener allows himself to be lifted up like a snake in the wilderness— but whenever our God asks us to lovingly trust him more than our own eyes… and the lies.

« Previous: Surprised by a Snake Next: All things New »

Vote on whether you think this post is something you'll be thinking about:

(+4 rating, 4 votes)

211 Comments »

SFDBWV says:

July 22, 2018 at 11:09 am

Ripley’s “Believe it or Not” has been around a long time. He astonished newspaper readers for years by giving stories about unbelievable facts that most readers took as gospel truth.

Even my little home town of Bayard got a mention from him during WWII as having sent the most men to the war effort per percentage of population from all the municipalities in the entire USA.

I can’t substantiate his claim at this point only believe the story because I want to and it was printed in the Stars and Stripes and read by men from my home town who related the story to me.

The Bible is a Book of Books comprised of ancient writings and letters all put together by people who felt they were “anointed” to do so.

From its inception people have died over it killed over it and it itself has become an object of worship by some.

Why do we believe any of the stories written there?

Even here in our ever shrinking community of contributors the disagreement over the first words of it are ever present.

“Believe it or Not” comes to either believing all of Scripture or none of it. If we are to think that we are to believe God then where do we get to see what God says except where we are to believe it is written?

Logic has little to do with believing much of what is written, only faith does, and faith that what is written is indeed from what God said.

People everywhere take what is written and begin to analyze it or make it sound more agreeable to what they want it to say immediately.

If we just take the story in the garden as simply literal then there is little to analyze, but if we start looking deeper, then many questions, suggestions and possibilities emerge.

There to my thinking is a lot to “think” about when we are told to believe God from someone else.

Steve

jeff1 says:

July 22, 2018 at 12:46 pm

I think the question I need to ask is whether it troubles God that He is misunderstood and I don’t see any reasons to suggest that it does.

God is much more patient with His creation than His creation is with each other which is not surprising when you see that it is Jesus that unites us.

There is very little else that unites us as religions divide more than anything and so I cannot throw my teddy bear out of the pram if God is calling time on all religion as there is no denomination can say they got it right but only God Himself.

Beloved says:

July 22, 2018 at 1:58 pm

“It may be said that the chief purpose of life, for any one of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all the means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks.” -J.R.R. Tolkien

Thank you Mart.

street says:

July 22, 2018 at 2:28 pm

thinking of jeremiah saying Lord you deceived me and i was deceived. when i was deceived i discovered i had a will. i understand we like like seduction attention envy and every unclean thing. could it be we are unclean?

The misunderstanding shows up not only when a rescued family thinks their Father has led them into the wilderness to kill them— and not only when the Gardener allows himself to be lifted up like a snake in the wilderness— but whenever our God asks us to lovingly trust him more than our own eyes… and the lies.

thinking of hezekiah petition to God in the Temple, Lord i am like a woman in labor and no strength to deliver. the destroyer of nations was outside the walls. my right hand can not save me. his petition was for a Deliverer.

some trust in horses and some trust in chariots some trust in themselves and some trust in the Name of our God.

earlier i mention a carrier force turning into the wind prior to battle. seems to me that turning into the Light is a better way forward, a consuming fire.

how long Lord? to live among unclean lips with unclean lips? be still and know, Jesus is God.

Beloved says:

July 22, 2018 at 2:33 pm

Our sermon today was on Esther, and he made 3 points which call for trust on our part that God is lovingly trustworthy and far better than our own understanding and the lies, (as Mart says); God is not limited, God is not in a hurry, and God is faithfully working His purpose in the world now, as He did yesterday. So encouraging in light of world events, and, in our personal sphere of influence.

poohpity says:

July 22, 2018 at 3:05 pm

What was the first lie that human beings believed rather than trusting what God said? If one starts there then we can see all the other lies about God we are taught through multiple sources but at the center would be the only one who has something to gain which is to draw us away from God.

Beloved says:

July 22, 2018 at 3:57 pm

I’ve been thinking about the serpent and reading various commentaries about it. Did it have legs to walk upright before it was condemned to slither and eat dust? Now I’m wondering was it the only other creature besides Adam Eve and of course God that also had a voice to speak so they understood him. Must have been. So why wasn’t God’s voice/presence enough? Why do we listen to voices that challenge God’s sovereignty? Seems as though it’s been going on since BEFORE the fall. As I understand God better it seems he put in us the ability to choose not to confuse us or trip us up but to experience the grand feeling and peace – better than sex drugs rock and roll- which only He can give. Everlasting peace even under the worst of circumstances.

Dinakar says:

July 22, 2018 at 9:14 pm

Steve liked your post according to Romans 1 the primary way to know GOD is through His creation and not because your Sunday school teacher said so. Abraham Moses and David, all got to know God through Creation
Well don’t take my word for it but search the scriptures

jeff1 says:

July 23, 2018 at 3:44 am

Believe it or not, Jesus is the answer, was then, is now, and ever shall be.

My mum never had a Sunday school teacher but she believed and trusted Jesus and spoke of how he was a rebel of His day.

As someone who was treated as an outsider I believe that she too was a rebel of her day because the ‘status quo’ was not accepting of her and so she was drawn to Jesus all the more.

John 14:9 Jesus explains how when we see Him we see the Father and so I know God’s character through Jesus.

I either read scripture for encouragement and rebuke or I do so to make a point that I am right and the danger in that is that I miss God’s intention in showing me His way is right.

From Sunday morning reflections.

In my wrestling and in my doubts
In my failures You won’t walk out
Your great love will lead me through
You are the peace in my troubled sea, oh oh
You are the peace in my troubled sea

In the silence, You won’t let go
In the questions, Your truth will hold
Your great love will lead me through
You are the peace in my troubled sea, oh oh
You are the peace in my troubled sea

My Lighthouse, my lighthouse
Shining in the darkness, I will follow You
My Lighthouse, my lighthouse (oh oh)
I will trust the promise
You will carry me safe to shore (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
Safe to shore (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
Safe to shore (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
Safe to shore

I won’t fear what tomorrow brings
With each morning I’ll rise and sing
My God’s love will lead me through
You are the peace in my troubled sea, oh oh
You are the peace in my troubled sea, oh oh

You are my light
My Lighthouse, my lighthouse (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
Shining in the darkness, I will follow You (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
My Lighthouse, my lighthouse (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
I will trust the promise
You will carry me safe to shore (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
Safe to shore (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
Safe to shore (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
Safe to shore

Fire before us, You’re the brightest
You will lead us through the storms

My Lighthouse, my lighthouse (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
Shining in the darkness, I will follow You (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
My Lighthouse, my lighthouse (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
I will trust the promise
You will carry me safe to shore (Oh-oh-oh-oh)
Safe to shore (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
Safe to shore (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh)
Safe to shore

SFDBWV says:

July 23, 2018 at 5:15 am

Some archeologists actually believe that the Jew adopted the story of creation from their captivity in Babylon.

Such a comment from the bastions of education is disturbing at best, because it casts dispersion on the authenticity of Scripture.

In fact only those believers in either of the “Big Three” religions believe the Bible over archeology as it is taught in colleges all around the world.

The national pastime in Israel is archeology as the nation searches the land for proof of what the Torah says historically.

Archeologically a “Tell” is an artificial mound covering the successive remains of ancient civilizations. Such sites are dug up everywhere in Israel and the Mid-East as both believing and non-believing archeologists look for evidence to support their beliefs.

I have told the sad story of reading only a few years ago of ISIS soldiers blowing up the tomb of Jonah there in Syria. Jonah the Prophet of God who saved Nineveh from destruction by speaking for God.

It is very interesting to intellectually attempt to discern between the “truth” of what God says and the lie.

It is as Dinakar has said, God is discovered through His creation.

The marvelous “miracle” of Pentecost is that we as children of God have now the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us and as so He is able to bear witness of Himself. We are able to know because we know, because we know in our hearts when God speaks to us. Through His written Word, through creation, through others as well as recognize a lie.

The world view and sometimes “self” will try and resist the Holy Spirit’s urgings in us, but we always know in our hearts right from wrong and when we go up against the Holy Spirit as kicking against the pricks becomes all to obvious.

A lot to discuss in this small topic from Mart if we really want to look at what we believe.

66 degrees and cloudy, smells like rain is coming.

Steve

poohpity says:

July 23, 2018 at 8:15 am

So far I have not read anyone share the lies that we believe and trust from the enemy that one finds hope in rather than the truth from God but looking forward to the conversation.

Our first parents found hope in what the snake shared rather than trusting what God said which lead to the fall. How about Abraham and Sarah trusting in themselves or was it the enemy over what God said which brought us Ishmael and the troubles in the middle east we now see?

poohpity says:

July 23, 2018 at 8:40 am

You are right Dinakar and Steve in Romans 1 we were warned that even though they could know God through His creation they did not worship or thank Him but chose instead to worship the creation by making idols in the likeness of nature to worship. But the majority of Romans 1 speaks about sharing the Good News or Gospel about God which if they learned that that would prompt them to go to Sunday School to learn more.

Romans 1: For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

poohpity says:

July 23, 2018 at 8:53 am

It would then go to show ya that one of Satan’s lies which may sound good and to be trusted by the listener is that God can be found in the things He has created rather than than from the creator Himself. Satan seems to do anything to lead us away from God to the things that can be seen rather than to the invisible. “Seeing is believing” maybe that is one of the reasons Jesus came so that we could see the invisible characteristics of God in the visible. John 14:7

jeff1 says:

July 23, 2018 at 12:42 pm

We must not forget that God works through men imperfect or not as it is not He who demands perfection as that is a lie of Satan’s.

God asks us to trust Him in our difficulties for very good reasons and not just for the hell of it.

poohpity says:

July 23, 2018 at 2:34 pm

Is it not from realizing our imperfection that we point people to God rather than to us?

jeff1 says:

July 23, 2018 at 4:40 pm

I don’t believe in pointing people to God as I know when people did it to me I didn’t want to know.

You have to come to the realisation that you need God and no one else can do that for you to my way of thinking.

I was as low as it gets when I looked to God and even yet I am not one of those who has had a miraculous conversion and feel the need to convert others as I spend more time taking refuge in Christ than understanding God.

If a person feels that is their purpose then that is different but I don’t believe it is mine.

I believe that society makes demands on us that God doesn’t and so we are burdened by the world and I know I am blessed in worshipping God as non believers have said to me that they wished they had faith so as I see it faith is a gift and why some are bestowed while others are not is known only to God.

poohpity says:

July 23, 2018 at 5:38 pm

It is Jesus who converts people but they have to hear about Him first that is why He gave us His great commission, to go and tell. Romans 10:14-15 NLT; Mark 16:15

poohpity says:

July 23, 2018 at 5:51 pm

I really do not care what society thinks, I do not follow the ways of the world but I am excited to say I follow Jesus and I love to tell people about Him and how much He loves them.

Just like I love to share about my children because I love them. Just like you always share about your dad because you love him. Jesus is way better than my children and His love has not bounds like my love does. Almost everyone likes to talk a lot about someone they really love. Do people reject someone who talks about Jesus? Yes you bet they do but at least a seed has been planted.

jeff1 says:

July 23, 2018 at 6:17 pm

The non believers I talk to do not reject me for talking about Jesus they are just honest in saying they do not share my beliefs which is OK with me as God does not want to force anyone into believing or saying they believe if they do not.

It isn’t about whether we care or not about what society thinks but that we have to live here while in the flesh and are subjected to burdens of this world.

I get the strength from God to do this while I don’t understand how others who don’t have faith manage to survive in this world without that faith.

Faith is a comfort in a world where there is so much controversy as Jesus is our hope in times of uncertainty as He is the certainty when all else seems lost.

poohpity says:

July 23, 2018 at 8:50 pm

Yes I understand and I also do not know how people get along without the Lord.

SFDBWV says:

July 24, 2018 at 6:05 am

My dictionary defines “subtle” in this complex way, “Thin, precise, closely woven. 1. Thin; rare; tenuous; not dense or heavy. 2. Capable of making or noticing fine distinctions in meaning, etc. (a subtle thinker) marked by or requiring mental keenness. 3. Delicately skillful or clever; deft; crafty; sly. 5. Delicately suggestive; not grossly obvious (a subtle hint). 6. Working insidiously; not easily detected (a subtle poison).

My Concordance translates the word found for the serpent in the Garden as a “snake”. The Greek translation for serpent found in Revelation is also “snake”, but includes an artful malicious person as Satan.

Genesis 3:1 KJV states that the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made and astonishingly the serpent spoke.

As I have already said if you just take the written explanation of the events in the Garden as a literal occurrence and don’t bother analyzing them, great just believe it and move on.

This is what a child might do and explains why Jesus said to come to Him as a little child.

However we just aren’t like that are we. We pick everything to pieces in an attempt to know more than we need to know.

As I look at the definition of subtle it actually could describe the animal like activity of a snake, they are mentally keen, delicately skillful, clever, crafty, suggestive, not obvious, insidious and not easily detected.

But while those characteristics can also be human, speaking is just not characteristic of a snake.

Are we to believe that the animal this one snake in all creation is Satan in disguise? How then was this created angelic being able to physically change his appearance? Where else in Scripture is it stated that the devil can physically change his appearance by his own “power”?

Why didn’t God just say that the devil misled Adam and Eve instead of a snake?

Why then was the animal the snake cursed because of the actions of the devil? And not just that snake but all snakes from that point forward?

Mart asks why Jesus allowed Himself to be seen as a snake. Maybe there is much more in the answer than meets the “eye”.

It just may be that believing God at face value is easier than fully understanding the truth.

Allow me to give this abstract view if I may from Days of Praise.

July 24, 2018
A Still, Small Voice
“And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.” (1 Kings 19:12)

Elijah was in hiding for his life, even though God had spectacularly answered his prayer with fire from heaven. Jezebel, however, had not been intimidated by Elijah’s victory and swore she would kill him. He fell into such depression that he wanted to die. If Jezebel could not be impressed with fire from heaven, how could Elijah ever hope to defeat her and her armies? Not even an angel could remove his doubts.

But then was sent “a great and strong wind,” and “after the wind an earthquake” (1 Kings 19:11). But the Lord was not in the wind or the earthquake or the fire. God finally reached Elijah with “a still small voice,” and that voice assured him that God was well in control of all circumstances. Similarly, Moses told the children of Israel, as they faced the Red Sea: “Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD” (Exodus 14:13).

It was prophesied of the Lord Jesus that “he shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.” Nevertheless, it was also promised “he shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth” (Isaiah 42:2, 4; see also Matthew 12:19-20).

In our human impatience, we think God should always move immediately in great strength. Unless there are large numbers of converts and displays of power, we grow discouraged, like Elijah. But God more often speaks in a still, small voice and works in a quiet way. “And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, . . . And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left” (Isaiah 30:18, 21). HMM

Ecclesiastes 12:12 KJV…”much study is a weariness of the flesh.”

62 and cloudy.

Steve

jeff1 says:

July 24, 2018 at 8:25 am

God goes before us and He comes after us as He is the ‘alpha’ and the ‘omega’ which means it is He who finishes what He started as no power on earth can overturn God’s judgements as He is the righteous judge of all.

SFDBWV says:

July 24, 2018 at 8:43 am

Amen and amen, Vivian.

Steve

jeff1 says:

July 24, 2018 at 8:49 am

When I am down and oh my soul so weary
When troubles come and my heart burdened be
Then I am still and wait here in the silence
Until you come and sit a while with me

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders
You raise me up to more than I can be

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders
You raise me up, to more than I can be

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains (stand on mountains)
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas (stormy seas)
I am strong (I am strong), when I am on your shoulders (I am strong)
You raise me up to more than I can be

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains (stand on mountains)
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas (stormy seas)
I am strong when I am on your shoulders
You raise me up, to more than I can be

You raise me up, to more than I can be

poohpity says:

July 24, 2018 at 8:56 am

Amen, Viv.

One of Satan’s subtle ways of turning us from God is to sew seeds of doubt as in; Genesis 3:1 ” “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” Satan’s question even started with a lie which Eve’s reply was also found to be not actually what God had said either. Genesis 3:2-3 When this was what God did say Genesis 2:16-17.

It is not only Satan but there are many who can take a small bit of truth and turn it around to mean whatever anyone wants it to mean, as in the propaganda we get fed everyday in the media. The only way to stand against lies is to know the truth and that truth will set us free. Yes it does take some study to find out facts so we are not led astray but it is sure better than being lead down a primrose path of lies and deception that one begins to base our lives on and causes us to turn to the right or to the left off the reliable path of following God.

poohpity says:

July 24, 2018 at 9:13 am

When one does not know(ignorant) of what is right or wrong which was how Adam and Eve were before they ate from the tree, they stayed in close relationship with God but once their eyes were open to right and wrong they hid from God.(Romans 4:15 NLT) At that time the need of a Savior came into existence to restore a broken relationship with God, so in His justice He could not allow them to eat also from the Tree of Life that would have meant they would have stayed that way forever so in God’s gracious, loving way made them leave the garden so that would not happen. Genesis 3:24

poohpity says:

July 24, 2018 at 9:23 am

By the way since it was the beginning of life here on earth do you really think they knew what kind of death that could be since no one had died yet to know what that meant?

Beloved says:

July 24, 2018 at 11:07 am

Good morning Steve, Viv. Pretty quiet here today, but wanted to add a big thank you to Mart for this, “but whenever our God asks us to lovingly trust him more than our own eyes… and the lies.” because I’ve lived a life of hypervigilence and he’s challenged me for the first time to stop and trust that God is lovingly watching over me and the circumstances of my life. I don’t need to be constantly on guard for my own safety. The serpent, or Satan is wise, yes, but not loving. God is all wise AND loving! Having the knowledge of good and evil we are powerless against it, but God is greater than our knowledge. It’s wonderful!
Thank you God, I love you and praise You for Who You are– blessed and a blessing to all who seek You. May your kingdom come, your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. In Jesus’ name, amen.

Beloved says:

July 24, 2018 at 11:20 am

Condemned, dead, and lost in ourselves, we must in Christ seek righteousness, deliverance, life and salvation. —Calvin

So true.

jeff1 says:

July 24, 2018 at 11:22 am

Thinking of how hard it is to break the habit of hiding from God when I know I have done wrong and so how I am still like my first parents.

I know God has forgiven me in my head but my response is still to run from Him and I think that is because when I was a child I was indoctrinated with the ten commandments and my response then was I am never going to be able to do this so I didn’t try.

I have been running all my life since although I believed in God’s existence I seen God as a God of Wrath and it is not until I have been seeing God through Jesus that I have seen Him as gracious and loving which is what my heart tells me He is and I tend to go by my heart because in my head I can be very confused.

Probably not!

Beloved says:

July 24, 2018 at 11:23 am

Crown of thorns, why? King of the earth maybe? Weren’t we all surprised!

Beloved says:

July 24, 2018 at 11:26 am

I know King of Jews was why He was crowned but thinking Jews-earth-dust.

poohpity says:

July 24, 2018 at 11:53 am

Praise God Viv, that you are seeing God through the life of Jesus. John 14:7,9

poohpity says:

July 24, 2018 at 12:41 pm

Right now @10:40 am which is a cooler part of the day it is 116 degrees f so by the time it hits the hottest part of the day I would guess we will be in around the 125 degree range. So we are sure to have electrical brown or black outs and the fires all around the west will be just ramping up. It is now cloudy so please pray for rain to quench fires and the heat.

Beloved says:

July 24, 2018 at 3:40 pm

Dear street, I was so surprised today with my reaction to a pastor friend I ran into shopping that I could not shake or hold hands in prayer circles with before. My reaction, to my delight, was pure peace and joy– so much that I wanted to hug him, however he was gone before I could find him again. It truly is a work of God how He has decided in my older age to deliver me from ALL my fears. Thank you for your encouragement here also. He’s a great God!

jeff1 says:

July 24, 2018 at 6:17 pm

Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling
Calling for you and for me;
Patiently Jesus is waiting and watching
Watching for you and for me!

Come home! come home!
Ye who are weary, come home!
Earnestly, tenderly, Jesus is calling,
Calling, O sinner, come home!

Why should we tarry when Jesus is pleading
Pleading for you and for me?
Why should we linger and heed not his mercies
Mercies for you and for me?

Time is now fleeting, the moments are passing
Passing from you and from me;
Shadows are gathering, death-beds are coming
Coming for you and for me!

Oh, for the wonderful love He has promised
Promised for you and for me!
Though we have sinned, He has mercy and pardon
Pardon for you and for me!

foreverblessed says:

July 25, 2018 at 2:57 am

That crown of thorns:
Gen 3:17-18
Cursed is the ground …
it will produce thorns and thistles for you

This is what a pastor said about it:
When Jesus was bleeding because of the crown of thorns, it was because Jesus took up the curse of sin!

The Cross is complete, the saving is complete, the healing is complete. Even the consequences of sin is taken on the Cross.

When I heard that for the first time, I had a great sense of relief. But it is hard to grasp:
Not all consequences are taken away yet.

As in the healing: not everyone is healed, the ODB of yesterday was about that too.

With the feeling of inadequacy, that to me is a matter of faith! It is a lie that we are not adequate, because IN Christ we have all we need.
That is the truth!
There are sooo many truths in the Bible, about who we are through faith is n Christmas.
How blessed we would be if we like a child take them literal.
Like this one:
His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness.

That is so positive.
But the lies will creep in: “I am not adequate”
In ourselves we are not.
But we are not of ourselves anymore, when we were purchased by Jesus, through His own blood
Romans 7:4

Oh, that we would stand on all those promises, because of faith in Jesus!

foreverblessed says:

July 25, 2018 at 3:10 am

Yesterday I was in the great church of our town. Where we dedicate all the prayers that are written in the prayer book to God. And we pray for the city.
There came a woman, she looked as if she was from the Philippines, or that area. She hardly spoke our language.
But she said she listened to Radio Maria.
Several times a day, at 9 am, at the vespers , at the evening song, at the rosary at night.
Mother Mary was the one she was praying to.
Why not to Jesus we asked?
She said: Oh no, that is of no use. Satan is always fighting Jesus.
Then she clasped her hands together
Jesus and Satan arealways fighting, Satan goes against everything that Jesus does.
But…
And here comes the interesting part, she said:
Not so with Mary, Satan does not fight her. Because she was the mother of Jesus,band when she died she went straight to heaven,vwith body and all. Because she was human, and totally loyal to the Trinity of God.

Jesus is the Son of God, and everything that is written about Him in the Bible is true, but Mary is the one we pray too.

This topic is about the Cross of Jesus, the total effect on our saving, the truth, and not the lies we can believe.

So we had a discussion with her, she repeated three times why it was Mary, but also stated that Jesus was the Son of God.

So I hand her in prayer over to God: bless her, guide her!

And I am learning to let go and let God!
If we have prayed with intention and with faith, she is on good hands, God’s hands!

poohpity says:

July 25, 2018 at 8:16 am

It would seem that any body no matter who it is that plants a seed of doubt or skepticism about the authenticity, reliability, accuracy of the Word of God is being used by Satan.

Or that because a specific prayer is not answered the way we think it should be so therefore God is not loving nor does He care for us is another way Satan can use circumstances to doubt the goodness God. Job for instance Satan wanted by circumstances to turn him away from or curse God.

Satan even used one of Jesus’ own disciples, Peter, to try to dissuade Jesus from the main reason He came to die as a sacrifice or atonement for our sins.

poohpity says:

July 25, 2018 at 8:19 am

Satan seems also to use the lures of this world to entice us away from God or to not speak of Him.

SFDBWV says:

July 25, 2018 at 8:51 am

Here is the thing as to what we believe or choose not to.

Mart says “The prelude to the sequel is easy to forget. An embittered enemy, disguised in the appearance of a pre-cursed creature, seemed to offer a better hope than the Gardener.”

If we are going to believe the simple story of creation and the fall of man at face value then fine, but if we believe there is an enemy in the garden and a pre-cursed creature there are some other questions that need to be looked at.

First of all “In the beginning”; is this the beginning of all creation? Or just the beginning of the universe as we know it and see it and the planet earth and our place on it?

Was there a pre-existence of created angelic beings before “In the beginning.”?

The war in heaven doesn’t take place until Revelation 12:7 KJV

So when did this drama between Satan and God take place? Where is it said that the serpent is pre-cursed? And when?

If we choose to believe that God was unaware that the serpent was Satan in disguise or that the devil was beguiling Eve, then we can’t really believe that God is omnipresent and omnipotent. Where then does that leave us in what we “believe or not”?

Are we then led to believe that God was not in control of His creation from before or after it was created? Or perhaps that His creation was flawed in its created state?

Maybe it is just easier to not dissect the story of the Garden and agree that mankind has always needed a savior from before he was created throughout his entire existence unto the end.

Believe what you will as long as you agree that Jesus of Nazareth was born to the Virgin Mary, conceived by the Holy Spirit, that He is the promised Messiah, the Son of God, and in fact is God in the flesh.

All of the rest is just speculation based from our experiences and understanding of the limited knowledge at our disposal.

With plenty of room for disagreement, which is fine as long as it is not presented from a disagreeable demeanor. And enjoyed from an intellectual pursuit of discovery.

68 and muggy in the mountains.

Steve

SFDBWV says:

July 25, 2018 at 9:23 am

Pushed to finish I meant to include in my agreement that Jesus was also crucified died and arose from death as given by the witnesses of the Gospels.

Steve

Beloved says:

July 25, 2018 at 9:25 am

Forever, thanks, I don’t remember ever hearing a sermon on the crown of thorns. Cursed ground since the fall but new life in Christ! Thorns and thistles may mar our way but Jesus Christ is here to stay! Oh how fortunate we are to know, love and follow Him. Blessed be His Name above all names!

Beloved says:

July 25, 2018 at 9:34 am

Steve, I think Gods pronouncement that the snake was to crawl on the ground after deceiving Eve presupposes a creature without a curse, until then. Is that what you are wondering about? I read yesterday in my Cultural Background Study Bible that new testament writers did not at the time recognize the serpent as Satan. I thought that interesting.

SFDBWV says:

July 25, 2018 at 10:07 am

Actually my question was from Mart’s saying a pre-cursed creature.

As stated, if we are to dig into the story there are a lot of questions that arise and some with no Scripture answers. Only our speculation.

Bible study can be fun if we are allowed to have an imagination without persecution.

I agree the snake was cursed following the incident, yet after all things are made new, the snake is still left to crawl on its belly and eat the dust of the earth as stated in Isaiah.

Personally I think everything went as planed in the garden as willed by the “Gardener”.

Steve

Beloved says:

July 25, 2018 at 10:13 am

Steve i was not persecuting you. Just reflecting.

I just read a very interesting article at BiblicalArcheology dot org that talks about satan being part of Gods tribunal sent out by Him, very interesting!

Beloved says:

July 25, 2018 at 10:14 am

The article is “How the serpent became satan”.

SFDBWV says:

July 25, 2018 at 10:45 am

I know you weren’t persecuting me, I just added that this exercise of “thinking about” can be fun if we aren’t held to task for “thinking”.

Don’t misunderstand, I love you Joyce and appreciate you very much.

You and I both know that there is a snake somewhere in most every garden, whether seen or not.

Steve

poohpity says:

July 25, 2018 at 11:33 am

Satan’s influence is all around to get us to question what God has said, to add more or twist what is there and to doubt the goodness of God.(Luke 4:1-13)

One has to remember that the story of creation in Genesis was God telling Moses what to write. So there seemed to be a purpose for everything God told him.

poohpity says:

July 25, 2018 at 11:45 am

If God thought that knowing about who Jesus is and His death and resurrection was all we needed to know then why did He make sure we had the rest of the bible? I wonder who would be behind telling people that the rest is not that important? Could it be the influence of the enemy?

The bible also contains in many areas how the deceiver or Father of lies works so that we could be prepared to recognize when faced with the lies, lures and the deception.

Beloved says:

July 25, 2018 at 11:46 am

Thank you Steve for saying that, its so good to hear those words, I love you! I love you also as well as many others here, you’ve become like family to me and I so appreciate how God has created this body of Christ in cyber world. He truly is everywhere! And now–as I once again because of Jesus– begin fellowship with face to face believers I carry with so much I have learned from you all, with confidence Gods love overcomes whatever satan throws at me or the new church I am in. That together we are far more powerful than trying to go it alone.

poohpity says:

July 25, 2018 at 11:52 am

God also teaches us in His word that Satan can come in disguise of things that may look beautiful and accepting but are bent on leading us away from believing God. 2 Cor 11:13,14

Beloved says:

July 25, 2018 at 1:25 pm

Steve, I see similarities between the lies of the serpent to Eve and the lies of the satan about Job. Crafty, cunning. Yet in the midst of both scenarios we see hear and almost feel the goodness of God, if we look, as Mart has been talking about. Look, see, believe and TESTIFY to the Holy powerful goodness through love of our great God! What a great commission we’ve been given, and so doable!
Thank you for your work for the Kingdom!

SFDBWV says:

July 25, 2018 at 2:00 pm

Good afternoon Deborah, I see nothing has changed in you acidic demeanor or commentary. Always the opposition to whatever I may have to say.

Yes there is a great deal to read and discover in Scripture and that discovery can be fun and enjoyable.

The problem is people like you who think only they can speak for God and only they know everything written and so insist without authority, to correct anything anyone else may suggest or bring to the table.

Well if it gives you any pleasure to think only you have all the answers then keep it up, all you do is make it uncomfortable for others to be here and certainly to contribute.

As for me I do occasionally look at what you write, but more often just ignore your insults and digs as coming from someone who has not the capacity for abstract thought nor the sensibilities as to know how to associate amongst others without irritating them.

And Deborah this is sad. Because I know you have a big heart and want to fit in. To be accepted by others and loved.

But you push everyone away who shows you any kindness.

I don’t know what else to say to you. I know you just dig in and get aggressive when others attempt to help you or set you straight, but you won’t listen to them because you can’t take criticism. Even and especially constructive criticism.

Others pray for you to see the light Deborah, and I will join them, for your sake and the health of BTA.

Steve

poohpity says:

July 25, 2018 at 4:49 pm

There you go again Steve. If what I said is not consistent with what is in the Bible share that with me rather than all the false accusations and finger pointing about me personally. I am writing in regards to the topic if there is something that is not consistent with the topic I am also open to you pointing that out to me as well rather than the personal attacks and your opinion or perception of me because that is most often just lies to put me down.

Beloved says:

July 25, 2018 at 9:13 pm

You Are My Vision
Song by Rend collection

You are my vision, O King of my heart
Nothing else satisfies, only You Lord
You are my best thought by day or by night
Waking or sleeping, Your presence my light
You are my wisdom, You are my true word
I ever with You, and You with me Lord
You’re my great Father, and I’m Your true son
You dwell inside me, together we’re one
Oh, oh, come on church
You are my battle-shield, sword for the fight
You are my dignity, You’re my delight (my shelter)
You’re my soul’s shelter and You’re my high tower
Come raise me heavenward, O power of my power
Oh, oh, I don’t riches
I don’t want riches or man’s empty praise
You’re my inheritance, now and always
You and You only, the first in my heart
High king of Heaven, my treasure You are
Oh, oh high King
High King of Heaven, when victory’s won
May I reach Heaven’s joy, O bright Heaven’s Son
Heart of my own heart, whatever befall
Still be my vision, O ruler of all
Heart of my own
Heart of my own heart, whatever befall
Still be my vision, O ruler of all
Oh, let’s worship Him
Oh, oh, oh

SFDBWV says:

July 26, 2018 at 5:19 am

So be it!

Looking deeper into the subject comment we see that a rescued family thinks that their “Father” has led them into the wilderness to die.”

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were called to become a special “nation” of people. Abraham was ask to leave his familiar surroundings and promised a land of his own, the promise continued to Isaac and to Jacob without being fulfilled. Jacob and his sons were rescued from famine and sent to Egypt to grow into the people and Hebrew “nation” they became.

For 400 years there was not a single word from God to the Hebrew people, not a single word of encouragement except that of the promises God made to their ancestors, over 400 years earlier.

When the time was right God showed up in a big way.

He showed up, but the people had to act upon His rescue plans for them to leave Egypt. Even though Pharaoh was willing to let them go, God did not want it to be so easy and so God hardened Pharaoh’s heart so he would not let the Hebrew people go.

God sent the angel of death to kill all first born children in Egypt except all those who had the blood of the lamb over them.

A prophetic life event to show how the blood of Christ would save all placed under it, thousands of years later. Saved that is from eternal death.

I used to think in amazement of how these people who witnessed all of the miracles of God in order to escape Egypt could ever doubt God. Until I also began to doubt under much less circumstances and witnessed others doing the same.

It wasn’t until I realized that God is behind all events in my life as well that I was able to find peace, even in the worst of conditions.

The story complete with all the micro stories in the Exodus demonstrates that just because we can’t see where life is taking us, we need only to trust God and settle down. To not be anxious about tomorrow.

God was very tough on these Hebrew people and many died under His swift judgement during their time of development.

But as we develop some parts of us die as well.

As Christian we are not to forget all God has done for us and that He is always with us even when we may not see Him in our circumstances our rescue is underway without our knowledge.

We learn all of this by the events given in Genesis through Revelation.

There is nothing God won’t do in order to bring each one of us into fellowship with Him, He proved that by the death of His first born in order for us to leave the bondage of sin and travel across the wilderness of this world to the Promise he has had for us since before the foundation of the world.

I have rambled enough this morning, I hope all of you today are blessed and filled with joy and peace.

Steve

jeff1 says:

July 26, 2018 at 6:01 am

What I find hard to believe today is that Jesus has been and always will be my friend and no matter what confusion goes on in my head it is my heart that reveals this to me.

I was speaking to a woman who was a child minder to my children and she was talking of her daughter and my son who were the same age and had attended the country school in our area where only 28 pupils remained.

She was speaking of the head teacher of that school, there was just the two teachers but what she revealed to me came as a shock to me and made me realise that I am not a good judge of character and tend to take people at face value.

I have always seen her as a woman who in her position as a head teacher seemed strict but having the responsibility she had would require such a skill and so she seemed suited to the job to my way of thinking.

My friend started to reveal characteristics about this woman that truly shocked me and my friend who was with me whose son also attended this school.

She spoke of how she pulled the hair out of pupils, one lad who was a friend of her sons she tried to lock in a shed but he outwitted her and she ended up locked in the shed, another she took and battered his knuckles on the desk, all this she did in front of other children who to this day are witnesses to it.

She also spoke of how she is a pillar of a church today and respected among her peers.

You can fool people some of the time but you cannot fool them all of the time and as my mother has often said should it take a lifetime the truth will come out.

When I mentioned it to my son he said mum, you wouldn’t have believed us if we had said as you would have said we were just making up stories.

It is true what my son said because when I was a child and if you came home and talked badly of your teacher you were told you must have done something to deserve what you got.

The point I am making is that today teachers have been stripped of authority and in some schools chaos from pupils is evident.

Sadly this teacher, teachers that I knew, and my mother spoke of have made it so as they abused children in their care and created the difficulties the authorities have today in balancing disciplining pupils without allowing teachers like this the power to abuse their privileges.

I am like the Archbishop of Canterbury in that He was shocked that other adults said nothing of what was going on at the time and likewise the other teacher knew what was happening as in a two roomed school country school it would have been impossible for her not to have done.

God is the better judge because He sees what goes on behind locked doors to those who are vulnerable and unable to speak for themselves.

I can be blinded, you can be blinded but there is no hiding the truth from God when it comes to the suitability of those He will chose for the purposes of His Kingdom on earth.

When I’m confused Lord, show me the way,
Baffled and bruised Lord, show me the way.
Still my heart and clear my mind
Prepare my soul to hear
Your still small voice, your word of truth.
Peace be still your Lord is near.
Always so close to show you the way.

When I’m afraid Lord, show me the way.
Weak and dismayed Lord, show me the way.
Lift my spirit with your love,
Bring courage, calm and peace.
You who bore all for my sake,
So I could walk from fear released,
With you beside me showing the way
Showing, showing the way.

poohpity says:

July 26, 2018 at 7:17 am

Mart’s last paragraph seems to be the way you think as well Steve. God did not lead the people into the wilderness to kill them, He lead them there to show them that He wanted to provide for them and to be their God but like most human beings they wanted what they wanted, to do things the way they wanted to do things always with the heart of rebellion.

That reminded me of the day when my oldest son going on his second year in college said to me, “I need to learn for myself and make my own mistakes”. He used to trust what I said about the consequences of certain actions which had prevented him from getting into trouble when he was younger but now he no longer wanted that parental advise. I was hoping that through all my suffering and the mistakes I made I could warn him so he would not repeat them but he no longer wanted to listen so I stopped sharing. That reminded me of the Israelites in the wilderness, not only then but until this very day that is the way most people are to.

When people are in trouble usually God is the first person they go to or blame but if they had been listening to Him or trusting before the trouble had come would they have had a different mindset during the circumstances or the way they handled the trials? Yes! Not taking personal responsibility for our own actions starts when we are very young and it continues into adulthood either blaming or making excuses which stops maturing. Satan puts out there it is all God’s fault for all the evil around us but that is just another of his lies, no one can make anyone else do something wrong that is a personal choice, the freedom we are given by God to make. We can rebel or trust that God has shown us a better way.

poohpity says:

July 26, 2018 at 7:31 am

Steve, the little synopsis you gave of the history has so much negative but completely misses all the grace and mercy that God actually did show during those times. Why would you even want to love or worship God is that is what you think about Him??

poohpity says:

July 26, 2018 at 7:32 am

if that is what you think about Him, not is that is. ooops.

jeff1 says:

July 26, 2018 at 8:14 am